The Ringer-Verse - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 8 Deep Dive. Plus, Showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay | House of R

Episode Date: October 15, 2022

Joanna and Mal are back in Middle-earth to talk about the Season 1 finale of 'The Rings of Power.’ They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (1:22). Then, they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details, character moments, and major reveals (7:11). Then, they look ahead and talk about what could come next season (2:07:42). Later, Joanna is joined by ‘The Rings of Power’ showrunners, J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay to discuss making the show as well as the character reveal in the finale (2:24:21)! If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail].   Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to Power Pot pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Trimfairadio.com.

This episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand.

Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.

Sweetgreen.com. Duns are parts are laid before. us by powers greater than our own. In those moments, it's our task to make our feet go where our hearts wish not to tread. No matter the perils awaiting us on the way. Your sounds be like an adventure. Alone, it's just a journey. No adventures.

He must be shared. Come into the ringer verse, rings of power verse, your nexus, podcast, feed for all things fandom. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today. She is the Nori to my poppy and I promise you. She goes on a big adventure. I'm going with her. It's Mallory Rubin. Oh, Joe.

Some co-host I am. Here you're heading it to the big beyond and I haven't taught you a blooming thing. Yeah, it's Harfoot City over here. As you can tell, as we gather to discuss the rings of power finesse. Season 1 finale. We have a very special treat for you today. This podcast is coming out a little later, partially because Amazon and their screener policies around this,

and then partially because we've got a fun little interview at the end of this episode with the showrunners, J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay. I'm your own of them, lads! Very powerful. Yeah, so J.D. and Patrick are going to, you know, join us at the end of the podcast. Unfortunately, like devastatingly, I had to do this without Mallory. But we've all promised each other that like all four of us will talk for season two. So that's a promise from us to you.

What a wonderful interview. Cannot wait for everybody to hear it. Cannot wait to chat again in season two and beyond. Okay. I love it. Program reminders. Yes. Yes.

Okay, so this is our last Rings of Power episode for a while. Very sad. I don't want to hear that. Genuinely, like, crushed. Sunday, we'll try to revive our spirits by talking to Chris Ryan about a truly extraordinary episode of House of the Dragon on Talk the Thrones. Tuesday, Mallet and I will be diving deep on that very same episode. We have a lot of questions about it. Can't wait to talk about it. So that's Tuesday, Wednesday.

The Midnight Boys, Poo-Poo-Poo! We'll be back to talk about Andor and or whatever else they want to talk about. And then guess what? Then Mallory Rubin and I will show up to talk about Andor. We're headed over to the Andor beat. We are so excited. Hype. We've been chummed at the bit to get into this show, which we both love, but are like watching

as fans. And now we get to watch it as it. It's going to be a whole different experience. is honestly the back half the season. So yeah. So that's coming next week as well. And then if you haven't, please listen to our pal Ben Lindberg and the Mittenition boys breaking down the extraordinary Sheeulk finale.

And again, because of content, McGettin, Mallory and I weren't able to cover that show either, but we both loved that finale. So, you know, sorry that we cannot cover every single thing. Would that we could? I think you know to reach us at Havas and Dragons at gmail.com. I think I've already received several emails this morning for people being like, sorry, I called you dumb for your Sauron theory. Thanks. Keep him coming.

Feels good. But Malhouse can folks make sure they're up to date on everything we're doing on this feed? Oh, well, for one, I'd say follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And also follow the ringerverse on the social media. a platform of your choosing. We're everywhere. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram.

We're on TikTok. So follow the pod. Follow the social handles. Send the emails at Hobbits of Dragons at gmail.com. Then you're set. Sounds great. What a plan. All right.

As for usually, we've got a little spoiler warning to hit you up top here. And as always, it's a little complicated. It's a little different this week. Here's how it's going to go. We're still doing three rings this week, right? Three rings for Alvin Kings under the sky. Ring one is this talking about this episode and this season with the knowledge that we rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year and also sometimes reread the books.

So all of that knowledge will be in the soup there. Most of our ring two stuff, our theories and speculation stuff, is going to be pulled up into ring one because we got a lot of reveals, interesting reveals in this episode. So a lot of the stuff that we've been talked about in Ring 1 this week. That's really fun because Ring 2 is really a cool place to be. And if you hadn't been, you might want to go back and listen. Really fun times there. Ring 2 today, though, we'll be talking about some like forward-looking season 2 and beyond stuff, some breadcrumbs that are laid in this episode for that.

And then Ring 3 is what I'm calling the interview that we have with J.D. and Patrick. That's Ring 3. So there you go. One, two, three. Easy, peasy. Anything else, Mallory, before we start? Each of those rings has been carefully and not at all hurriedly or perhaps recklessly forged with a perfectly blended alloy of various oars and gemstones.

So join us. Yeah, we melted down our very personal, you know, precious heirloom daggers to bring you this content. All right, let's start as we always do with a long-expected party, our opening snapshot. So this episode, this finale is called Alloyed. We'll talk about the meaning of that a little later on. It was written by Jennifer Hutchison. J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay ever heard of them.

And directed by Wayne Jayup, who's directed a bunch of episodes this season. So we're going to start as we often do, just sort of like general temperature taking, Mallory Rubin. How did you feel about this episode of television? I liked it. I enjoyed it. Some parts of it worked a lot better for me than other parts. There were stretches of the finale and certain. character arcs and and concluding or key culminations of certain storylines and share journeys

that I thought were absolutely thrilling. I loved so much of what we finally got to watch with our pals. Hal and gal. That was just a real treat. Obviously, a lot of delightfully moving and emotional parting and sorrow and somber, but also hopeful moments in Harfootland. You know, I'm probably less attached to the cultists than I am to some of the other figures of the story as one example. But on the whole, I not only enjoyed the finale,

but as you know, really enjoyed the season of TV and thought that the finale was a fitting and appropriate conclusion to this first season. season and a nice setup, a really nice setup for season two and beyond. So it leaves me incredibly excited for where we're going to pick up this story for Sauron reasons and others. How about you? Yeah, I mean, guttural sobs with the Hartfoot storyline, like, just out of control, sobbing. It's emotional. Also, just, like, giddily, like, laughing and clapping at the reveals of certain things. You and I shared some text messages about that. And then, yeah, and then some stuff that.

felt oddly, like, rushed and slow. We're going to talk about all of that. But we got an email from a listener that I thought sort of encompassed some of my feelings about the pacing of the episode. Finley wrote, I was on the whole pretty happy with the finale in that I think it tied up the season's arcs well, and I'm a big fan of the directions it's going in. However, it did feel really rushed to me and would have worked way better, stretched out across two or three episodes, in my opinion.

I think both Rings of Power and House the Dragon decide early on a point they wanted to reach by the end of season one. For the former, it was Sauron saying hi. And for the latter, it's Vassar saying bye. House the Dragon is able to tell the story of their big event across three episodes. The King died in Episode 8, presumably, you know, blah, blah, House the Dragon. Rings of Power didn't have this luxury, and I really wish they did. Episode 8 and 9 could have been Hallibet and betting up with Kellibirn-Bindbor while Galadriel gets suss. Episode 9 could have ended with him revealing himself to Galadriel.

And the finale could have been her having the visions she had, grappling over what to do, and ultimately deciding to make the three elven rings. So I think that's the, I think you and I agree that sort of some of the Halbrand, or we can just call him Sauron, Sauron. I guess so, yeah. I guess so, yeah. I guess so, Kellehermore. Forging of the Rings stuff, I would have been happy to have Hal Brand slash Souron in Oregon for many episodes, like maybe even a whole season.

So to have just a handful of scenes try to accomplish this sort of big moment, that's the part where I was sort of running to catch up. And I do know that at some point, this is an eight episode season of television. I do know at some point it was going to be a 10 episode season of television. And I know that some of the compression came early in this season. But I have to wonder if some of that compression comes here at the end as well. So that's, yeah, that's sort of where I am where I'm like, mixed positive on the finale, but like you, very excited for season two and some of the, uh, possibilities that are in front of us. I also want to shout out an email we got from Dave before we get into everything. This is just like the nicest pronunciation correction I've ever got in my life because like the email is titled question about pronunciation.

But Dave does not have a question and that's okay. Dave very much enjoying the pod but I have to ask, how are you pronouncing Silmaril? I'm hearing simeril with an M, not

Silmaril with an L. It's hard to be sure without rewinding over and over, which seems excessive, but I'm with you and Gilgallad for sure. Thanks. So, yeah, I – okay. Now, you know how everyone in their gay brother is saying, Negroni, Spalliato, with Prosecco in it, right? Stunning. Spaliato has – Stunin. Spalliato has a G in it, but it's that Italian, like, G-L sound. It's a tough sound to master, so a lot of people are like Spagliato is sort of how they're saying it.

That's fine. Similar, I have a trouble with the LM combination in Silmaril. I've always had this problem with the Silmarillion. I don't know why, but I will work on it. Thank you, Dave, for your polite correction. I support you. Silmaril. Simmeralian, just simmer.

I don't know. Sounds better to me. Okay, but it's wrong. So that's the point. Okay. Let's go into the deep dive. Helton's deep. Deep dive in episode eight. We're just going to start off. I mean, like, let's just be clear. Melody and I liked this episode, but it's always going to be a tough sell for us if Duren and Elron are not flirting in an episode.

So no Duran, no Disa, no Rondere, no Bronwyn, no Theo, no Balrog, no King, you know, like, and these are some things we were wondering about last week. Did we see, like it felt like they put a little tie in those timeline? Did you miss them in this episode? Did you need everything to be here? Or do you like the way they sort of tied up some things a little early so that we could focus on others here? I guess both. Because I think like if every character set had been present in the finale, then what

that, what you were accurately describing earlier, which I agree with, which is the sense of on the one hand knowing what we're moving toward with the forging and anticipating it, but also feeling like we're hurrying inside of one episode through some key steps there. would have I think maybe been exacerbated even further. However, and also, I think we agreed that last week, especially, you know, everything we got not only with Elron and Duran, but Big D and Little D. The people are with you, Mallory. I think I have to let you have that one. Big D and Little D, it is.

You'll never win the Apple debate with me, but you can have this one. Yeah, Joe, just let me have some Big D. Come on. Save some little D for the rest of the rest of it. And the conversation with Disa and Dern in particular felt, as you noted at the time, conclusive inside of this season is like a final note for their opening arc. However, there have been moments across the whole season where I've missed many different characters. Oh, we didn't have our hard food fix here. We didn't have our Elron fix here.

I'm always like longing for the time with our pals. This confirmed for me that Dern is my absolute favorite. I just really, really, really enjoy it. every single scene that during the fourth is in. And in part because of the mix of characters and everything that is at play in those conversations. So I look forward to reuniting with him, hopefully late in 2023. I'm out on this 2024 talk.

I'm just not patient enough. I can't wait. I mean, I will, but I'd rather not. Yeah, that's devastating, honestly, to contemplate. To go through an entire year without more rings of power now that this has been introduced in our lives? How can we possibly? So TikTok, Jadio Patrick,

please premiere within a year, even though you haven't, I think, finished writing the next season yet. So let's go to Numerur, which has for me throughout, despite my fondness for certain characters, felt like the least essential plot. It just felt sort of like detached from everything.

Though I guess you could say the same thing about the Harfuss. Would you have felt differently if Allendiel and Muriel had fucked on a boat in this episode. I know that's not where we were supposed to start. Great question. But what would have changed how you felt? A hundred percent on board for that. Listen, boat sex, I love.

It's great. To be clear, I mean, when I see it on TV. Are you referring to L-boat sex? John and Danis? John and Danny, you know, it worked fine for them, Joe. Everything went well after that. Why not? Kate and Leo.

Yeah, famously. Sex and the butt is a great idea. Yeah, you and I were both on the same page about the elbow sex. Your vibes. Yeah, Elendi El Mereal. I'm into it, honestly. I ship it whether or not it's on a ship. But in Numerator proper, right?

That's in the harbor. Back on land. Tar Palantir, who forgot to watch House of the Dragon this week. And so learned nothing from the death of King Vassaris. thought he was talking to his daughter as he was dying. Classic dying king move on our fantasy shows this week. We've all been there. You know, relatable content genuinely.

So we have Yari in here. It's a very like, it's a kind of labored premise to get her alone in the room with the king. But I buy it and they sort of tried to tie it into. Farazan's a session with immortality. This is a thing that he's talking about, right? So they're building a tomb, a monument to the king. And he says it will be our duty to forge for him a tomb, granting him the immortality in stone that no man,

not even a king can attain in life. Farisand has... There's not a hint of longing in his voice as he's saying it, so I'm sure there's nothing to worry about here. Super normal ideas about mortality coming in waves off of Farazan, right? Okay, so we have Yari in here, and she gets, you know, some babbling from the king, and then he gets up, the last of his strength. And Joe, the last of his strength.

Our guy is still spry. It took Vesaris 15 minutes to walk the throne room. This guy, she just turned her back for one second. He's ready to get on his peloton and go through a whole program. How Peloton's work? I don't know. Yes. He didn't make it up the stairs, though.

Just opens the door for her. So he didn't get to go up the stairs and say, that big marveled thing, that's a thing I'm telling you to be cautious of. So instead we get, again, a totally normal, not an all ominous moment where Ellen Deal's daughter, like Aurora with the spindle and Sleeping Beauty, is drawn towards the Palantir. what do you think is going on here? So interesting scene, interesting moment, interesting idea. We've not gotten much time with Tar Palantir across the season,

but every minute that we have gotten has been like a fascinating table setter, not only plot-wise, but, you know, crucially thematically, I think that so much of what he's saying connects to a lot of our season-long discussions and throughlines on the pod, what does it mean if, If you are able to glimpse something about the future, how does that get its hooks into you? Can you untether yourself from that knowledge? How does it shape your life? How does it shape your decision making?

He said, you must go up, but do not do as I did. I looked for too long and now I cannot separate what is from what was, what was from what will be. And as far as Harbingers go, there's always— A sign of portent. A sign of portent. Trademark. Bam. Our faith.

There's the personal messaging there, this way that you as the recipient of a warning like that can see very clearly the truth of those words. And it made me think a little bit of like the it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live mirror of Arisad moment. Whether you're looking at something that you long for or you're looking at something you fear, if you live in that vision and you are not inherently not present in your life and you are always going to be pulled in some other direction. But part of why I think this is so fascinating in the story in addition to the number of characters that it touches in the number of different ways visions have manifested is because of the way that it like runs in parallel to what we've been discussing about the idea of faith, which also comes up in this episode when you should put

your trust in something in the future. And also this idea of certainty. and how that has manifested for some of these characters. Trust, this sense that there's a choosing that has unfolded and a course that must be followed. So I think that all of these are entwined, even though they're also all inherently specific to different slivers of a emotional or spiritual experience. So I like this moment, even though it was passing and quick.

How about you? Yeah, what Tyra Pallantir says is something that Miriel and Galadryl, language that they used earlier talking of the Palantir, which comes directly from the mirror of Galadriel chapter in fellowship, right? What things that are, things that

may yet be, may yet come to past, etc. And I think, you know, we're obviously going to talk about I love that you brought up the mirror of Arsadr said because I kept thinking about that as I was doing these notes and thinking about the mirror of Galadriel and like wondering, I really want to

reread that chapter because just wondering how much, you know, J.K. Rowling is pulling from the Mirror of Galadriel chapter in order to write that. We know she pulled plenty from Tolkien. But, yeah, so Eari is such an interesting case because, as we noted before, she's not a book character, and so we don't know what her future is. So she's a real wild card. We're going to talk later about some blank spots on the map that they might journey to in season two, and she's a blank spot on the character map. She is, you know, her story and Kamen, which is Farazan's son, like, they are real question marks.

We don't know. We know the, we know where Allendeel is heading. We know where Isielder's heading. We know where Muriel's heading. We know where Farisandale's heading. But we don't know where these kids are heading or Valendil, for that matter. And so you flagged before some things that Ariane has said that has made you nervous for her future. So.

Yeah. I'm on guard with the Aryan. I do want to shout out one thing about the black sails in the harbor, which as far as I know is probably a historical thing. But I always think of the Greek myth of Theseus when Theseus goes off on his adventure and he tells his father of the king, Aegeas, that like when he comes back, if people are, if he's dead, they will there will be black sails and if they're alive, there'll be white sails. and he kind of forgot to switch the sails. And then his father throws himself into the sea and it's forever called the Eugency. So that's what I think of when I think of Black Sails in the Harbor, meaning death. I thought that was a really like beautiful moment and a beautiful moment for Elendial to see something that Muriel can't.

And we've talked about Muriel as like this sort of blind profit figure potentially. but this notion that, you know, she and Ellen Dela, other than us just screaming, like, have sex on a boat at them, right? They have this interesting, like, who's carrying you conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah. Who has you? And so it's like, I don't know, I like that dynamic that they're setting up potentially between them as, as, you know, someone that she needs. someone that she, like, and then what she can provide for him.

So, agreed. And he very quickly gets over whatever doubts he had at the end of last episode. Is that your interpretation as well, that, like, we saw him lose his faith, just like he lost his son and forgot to go look for him and Mortor. And then now he's like, JK, I'm back on Team Elf. I'm a believer. Is that your read on what we saw him? Yeah.

You know, he needed a little pep talk. And I think that while this journey through his emotional states and his state of doubt and faith happened quickly, I think that it worked for me because it adhered to this idea of fellowship, like what you're just describing, which is this very organic evolving bond and trust between them, the shorthand between them, this idea that maybe they can be there as a support, for each other in a way that very few understand or could provide is the thing that sparks this conversation about the faithful and calling back to this prior exchange about his name and what it means and the additional meaning of Elf Friend. And this conversation that they have here where Muriel says, my father once told me that the way of the faithful is committing to pay the price, even if the cost cannot be known and trusting in the end, it will be worth it.

it made me think a little bit about the conversation that we discussed last week between Galadriel and Theo and like how difficult it is for a character like Theo to hear a character like Galadriel say, trust that what just happened to your home and everything you've ever known might be part of some larger design. but this call to this idea of the faithful and that history and that root and what that means for Alendial and his family and his personal relationship to Numenor and the elves and that shared history and then division sparks something in him right it reignites the commitment the commitment to traveling that journey and then if it's a shared journey taking and having that adventure in the first place he says we have little choice then but to keep serving and I for one will see it see to it that we make the end worth the price. And it made me think, it made me think of a couple, we've talked about both of these passages before more than once over the course of the season.

Not surprisingly, there's such central ideas, but it made me think of both of these things. It made me think of the moment that we discussed previously with Elron and this idea of going as free companions and the challenge from Gimley, faithless as he that says farewell when the road darkens, right? And like, Like that was Elendial for a moment, as real as that grief and sorrow was. That's still what was happening. It was an abandonment in his heart even for a moment of that mission and that shared pursuit. Maybe, said Elrond, but let him not vow to walk in the dark who has not seen the nightfall.

And like carrying that grace inside of you for other people who are experiencing that doubt and that setback and then helping them find their way forward if it's right for them because you're finding that way forward together. So I liked it for that. And then, of course, the iconic all-timer pantheon, I wish it need not have happened in my time, said Frodo. So do I, said Gandalf. And so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. And Muriel and Elendiel, despite all of the different polls on their allegiance and their pursuits,

are two characters who are making that choice for themselves and together right now. And I think that idea of sacrifices will come up again, obviously, very clearly in the gladrial storyline. But I think it's useful for us to, as we continue to try to understand Tolkien's idea of morality, what does good mean, which is a central preoccupation of this episode. I think it's really useful to sort through the characters and see who is willing to make a sacrifice for some greater good and who isn't. And also, what is that greater good? And do you have a keen understanding of it? Or are you headed down the wrong path? Because we're going to, Duren's going to come up again for me a little bit later.

And when it comes to like ends and means, right? And justifying them and what that all means until the king. So, all right, anything else we want to say about Elbowt sex couple before we roll on? I don't think so. Can't wait to be back with them again in season two. Hopefully sprawled out on one of those yachts with like a nice, nice hammock in the front. You know, you see them on Bachelor in Paradise a lot. Sure.

Let's get one of those in the mix. Okay. No? They had those in Numenor in the second age. Surely. Oh, I guarantee you the Numenorians know about a hammock. They have some pleasure yachts, no doubt. All right.

Let's talk about it. Pleasure barge. Oh, yeah, a barge. You love a pleasure barge. I do love a pleasure barge. I know this about it. you. Okay, but like, hopefully on a pleasure barge, there is some sort of like, I think the word I want is pagoda situation and then like a lot of cushions strewn about, right? Absolutely. That's,

that's what puts a pleasure in a barge is you got to have many a cushion. Cushons all the way down. All right. Over in Merckwood Forest, I presume that's where we are. It's very, it's very endore. It's very northern California. The ferns are very wet. We catch up with the hard foots. This is the sequence I probably had the most trouble with, but we're going to drill in on some things that I really loved. So the stranger is looking at his red apple. Should be a granny Smith, but it's some sort of red apple.

And what it makes me think of is like, you know, it is a gift. Like, this is the gift that Norie gave him in an episode where gift is a tainted kind of concept and word later on, this idea of this very pure gift. And, like, she gave that apple to him. When their orchard was, like, burned, they didn't have a ton of... She gave him, like, one of their last apples, you know? And this is just this very beautiful, pure active friendship. and it's an item as like other characters will later cling to rings and stuff like that. It is an item that he is clinging to to anchor himself in the goodness and in her belief in him.

Why are you smirking at me right now? I just just the way you're saying it is a gift now. I'm just like seeing you as the Burmere meme in my Zoom, my Zoom box here, which I love. And it's great and I'm happy it happened. I'm also just thinking of all the tweets we've gotten from people about apples over the last week. So there's a lot of Apple opinions on the internet. And it's like, you can't wait until we talk about.

It's divisive. It's devisive. Stone fruit at some point in the future. What'll happen then? I'm not going to read any of them, but thank you for all your Apple emails. We got so many Apple recipes from people. Oh. One of them involves, one of them was pro me, but also pro you.

And it said, Joanna is right that Granny Smith are delicious. but Mallory is right that Granny Smith are good ingredients recipes. So it was Granny Smith's Minchego cheese and then it's like tossed in like oil and garlic. And I was like, what? You know, I've had like, like, Stunnen. I've had cheese and apples before, but never like in a sort of garlic mirror. Anyway, I mean, that is the recipe I will be trying. Thank you so much for sending it.

That sounds great. I would like to just clarify for the record that I did not say Greeny Smith, apples are bad. In fact, I said that they are quite tasty in certain presentations and forms, but to say it is your favorite apple. Anyway, I think we can agree. Carlos sent us a comment from someone. I was wondering why this pod was 15 minutes longer than usual, but then I realized it was just a 15-minute conversation about apples, Alzheimer. Apples and pleasure barges. So funny. Come for the ring of hers. Yeah. Oh, boy. Joe, in terms of your wonderful and very astute point about the apple and its manifestation in this episode and the way it is this anchor,

you know, the idea of the apple is the forbidden fruit. It makes me think of what you said a few minutes ago about choosing goodness, right? It is like this in your literal hand, a reminder and a representation of the choice that you get to make in that moment and then always have to keep making to pull yourself into the light and out of the darkness. So a very effective symbol here at the end. Not the end of all things, but the end of this season. TV. So the cultists themselves, yeah.

I think you, what were you comparing to weather top before? It was the cultist last week, right? I think it was when we were breaking down. Oh, you were reading the email about the lyrics to Wandering Day. Oh, right, right, wandering day. Yeah. Okay. But we get a direct weathertop reference here.

Do you want to break it down what we see here? Well, now you're going to make me think of stewed tomatoes. I told you already that as soon as somebody mentions weather top, I think of stewed tomatoes. Now we're just back on, now we're back on food. And you've seen. So easily distracted now. I am hungry. We'll say that.

It's just in the interest of full disclosure, I probably should have had a snack before we started. So the first thing, and we don't need to linger on this for long. But, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, hey, people head back, listen to ring to, listen to all the things that Joe was right about. You should do it. That's not what I said. be clear. But it's true. Let the record state that we were right to be alarmed by the plucking of the hair.

Because it turns out this is basically cultist polyjuice potion. Yep. Yep. It's very tough. This freaked me out. Like something about the, not only the changing of the eyes with fake Nori to lure the stranger in, but the movement of the body, there was like something very surploid. and unselling about it.

I think that everything that happened with the cultists and this pursuit, I mean, the first thing is that we do learn. We were debating, do they think that this is Sauron? I was wondering if maybe they thought it was a threat to thwarting Sauron or that power. No, they think that the stranger is Sauron. That's what's happening here. And guess what he's not? Because it's Hal Brown.

But it's... Yeah. It sparks this very interesting journey of discovery on the wizard front. And this, I think my favorite part, because what I was saying earlier, the stuff with the cultists didn't work as much for me. I think it's because we are so invested in this episode on the villain front, other characters and revealing this face of evil, as we've been talking about all season. and we just have not spent much time with these characters and so they're just simply not as compelling to us or engaging for us as figures for long stretches of time.

That said, they were effective at unlocking. Not only, super scary, not only this question of, oh, but boy, I, the stranger, I'm grappling with whether I am a threat, whether I am a source of peril or can be a source of goodness. I'm staring a peril into the face, how clarifying that is. they also take one of his hairs and impersonate him. So that was also unsettling.

A lot of sorcery. A lot of magic at play here. A lot of cloakwork. Damon Targaryen would be so proud. Yeah, a lot of cloakwork, a lot of flame throwing action. You mentioned Weathertop and the visuals when the stranger is awoken,

staff in hand. Very handy. If you were trying to remember your identity as a wizard, the visuals like shifting into that unseen. world imagery like we did with the ring wraiths when Frodo is stabbed on weathertop. That was really cool. And then there's like a moth transformation, which of course is something that we associate with Gandalf.

Gandalf ever heard of them. I love, yeah, the effect of making them look like the ring race on Weathertop, which is one of my favorite moments from the Peter Jackson films, by the way, when you see the decayed kings that these men once were, I think that's incredible. But I like that in a show where we talk about violence and not violence, this idea that like a wizard figure would dissolve this threat into a bunch of moths, I thought was a really cool moment rather than like them dying, screaming or something like that. They might have screamed actually as they turned in moths, but that's okay.

You can argue that it's a crueler in some ways, you know, keeping your very essence trapped inside of another form for all. all of time. Then you get to mock around Middle Earth. I mean, that sounds really pleasant to me. Moth around the Earth. Oh, boy. We got this great email from our listener, Will,

who wrote, last week we talked about Disa and, like, I was reminded of Lady Macbeth when Disa was talking to Doren. This week, Will writes and he says, it's not entirely clear to me, but the cultists all appear to be female. I think for the record, at least one of them is non-binary, but, you know, point taken, which

reminds me of the weird sisters in Macbeth, which are the three witches, right, in Macbeth. If this is the showrunner's intent, I find this show invention fascinating because it potentially creates another tie between Tolkien and Macbeth. I think Tolkien includes several allusions to Macbeth and Lord of the Rings specifically. One, the Witch King's False Tont to Aowin, which leads to his downfall, no man can kill me, which parallels McBeth's downfall and McDuff. No man, board from women can kill me. And two, the Horans is an actual moving forest compared to the moving burn and wood, which covers the Loyalty's Army approach in the ultimate battle against McBeth. So like a force that moves and no man from woman born, which are a couple of

the weird sister prophecies from Macbeth. I've always loved that Aow and Macbeth connection. I had never really put together the moving forest connection, but I love that to you. And so this idea that like Disa and these like trio of culta switches and stuff like that is another tie to me just speaks to again the showrunners the level of attention they're paying to like the influences on tulking in addition to the specificity of tulking himself absolutely absolutely are you a big macbeth fan at all i am yeah are you oh i love love love me some willie shakes oh my god let's talk about shakes there forever uh anyway uh of all the weird sister treatments I've ever seen in a production of Macbeth,

I think what they did in the Cohen treatment with Denzel Washington was extremely good and creepy, and I really recommend it. Okay. So we've already mentioned this idea of choosing goodness a couple times, and to be really transparent, we're kind of poaching from Janie and Patrick's conversation that we got some hints that that might be a good theme to lead it to. So I want to talk about this idea of the stranger. when he says, I am good, like choosing to be good, what the idea of, like, a constant choice on a path made me think of as this Sam quote that we've referenced many times in our discussion

here, where Sam says, I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of stories went out and looked for because they wanted them because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of sport, as you might say, but that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered or the ones that stay in the mine, folk seem to have just been landed to them. Usually their paths were laid that way, as you put it. And the stranger, this is Joanna talking, the stranger is going to talk about paths and laid later.

But I expect they had a lot of chances like us of turning back, only they didn't. If they had, we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten. So that choice you make to put one foot on front of the other on a path that's laid for you, which is a clear conversation that Norrie and, and the wizard companion will have later. I just, I like that as directly engaging this idea of constantly choosing to be good.

I love it particularly inside of, not only this episode where three rings of power are forged, but inside of this story and this particular fictional universe where objects and the idea of evil contained or bound inside of objects is so central. because of course, Joe, it makes me think of our guy Bendu and one of our favorite quotes to reference and that parallel here is, I think, really strong because when the stranger says, they showed me what I am. What I am.

Not like they said my name, they said for Sauron then. Isstar what I am. Like there's a, he's conveying a sense of essence there. They told me something definitive about who I am in my function in this universe, right? They showed me what I am. And Nori says, only you can show what you are. You choose by what you do.

And Bendu, of course, said to Canaan, an object cannot make you good or evil, the temptation of power forbidden knowledge. Even the desire to do good. That'll be relevant in this episode. Yeah. Can lead some down that path. But only you can change yourself. I love that we've talked about that Bendu quote before. And it's a, it's a tremendous.

this moment in Star Wars rebels. But I think I never thought how clearly that has... I mean, it's Star Wars, but it's... It has to have been influenced by Tolkien. Yeah. It's so Tolkien, right? So on this, like, subject of choosing to be good versus falling to evil, the... I wanted to, like, have one of our little, like, Tolkien lore pauses to talk about the brothers

Boromere and Faramere, because from... many different reasons, but maybe chief among them is, with love and respect to the Jackson films that I love so much, they do book, Faramir, so dirty in that movie. That is like one of the biggest changes. I mean, Faramia still comes off as a good guy, but there's just a lot of drastic changes to his character that I think really diminish one of my favorite book characters. So in terms of choosing a path or choosing to fall to temptation in pursuit of something good, there's a sparramere quote about Boromir

where he says, speaking of the ring, if it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory. of Minis Tirith and his own glory therein, might desire such a thing be allured by it. Right? So the desire, Boromir's fall is so tragic because it comes from a desire to protect something

that he cares about, right? Contrasting with what Faramir says about the ring where he says, I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not where Minishtherth falling in ruin and I alone could save her. So using the weapon of the dark lord for her good and my glory. So I love the Jackson films. Again, we love them, but the Jackson films makes the Borumir-Barramir-Far-Mir binary more about like fathers and sons, which is a key important theme and like desire, you know, for glory or to be seen in your father's eyes, right? To show your quality, as they like to say. And that's not what's driving Faramir in the book at all.

It is this inherent difference of choice. Now, to be fair to Boramir, Boramir spends a lot more time around the ring than Faramir does when he makes his decision. But I don't know. Like, have you ever, what are your thoughts around those two brothers, their decisions, how they're contrasted with each other? I'm with you. I love the way that you highlighted that distinction there.

And I think that one of the reasons it's an effective one for illuminating for us as readers, how you as an individual think about the pull of the ring or the pull of power and what the ring represents in that respect more broadly. It's very effective when it's conveyed inside of a strong relationship and friendship and a duo like that. Like these aren't figures who are opposed, right? These aren't people who are fighting against each other or trying to thwart each other in some respect. they are broadly and generally champions of each other and they find affections with each other and support for each other when that is actually lacking often in other areas of their life.

And so for those choice then and the relationship to that choice to be so stark, I think it heightens it because they actually are so aligned. They're aligned. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. And I mean, we have to think about Doran in this context, right? Because Doran... I always am thinking about that.

Well, we talked about this last week. like Duren's desire to save his, I mean, like Disa starts talking about glory in a way that's a little disturbing, but like, But like, but like, my own, but. My. The origin of this being Duren's genuine desire to protect his friend, Elrond. That's heartbreaking.

That's sort of one of the purest goals with the potential to go wrong, I think, that we've seen so far in the story because, like, some of these other ones, like, the elves wanting to prolong their time on Middle Earth or whatever, that seems like a little bit more self-serving. But for Doran, it's like, I want to do this for my friend. But what, and again, I think I want to keep talking about this idea of sacrifice versus making the wrong choice on on the road, because it can be hard to, you know, false lights, real lights. It's hard to tell the difference. Absolutely. I also, this isn't an email we got.

This was just like I was trolling around the Reddit boards as I do, the Tolkien fans' Reddit boards, trying to read up a little bit more on Faramere. And I got this great comment that I really loved. This Reddeter wrote, a major theme of Tolkien's is, quote unquote, good people are good regardless of circumstances. I think it stems from Tolkien's Catholicism. In Tolkien's theology, people really fall into three categories. Those who understand redemption and try for it, making them good and try for it. making them good and trustworthy, the whole fellowship, including Boramir, who immediately

regrets his sinful actions, followed her that category. Those who do not understand redemption and act selfishly making them wretched and pitiful, and that's Gallum, a defeated Saraman, Grima Wormtongong. And those who understand redemption and rebel against it, making them dark and evil, Sara and Morgoth. The first group should be trusted and loved. The second should be pitied and loved, and the third should be pitied and fought. And I really love that idea.

You know, we talk a lot about like pity, staying Bilbo's hand and stuff like that. And Hal Brown's going to talk about redemption at the end and we can decide whether or not he actually buys what he is selling or not. But I just, I for one, and you'll hear Janie and Patrick talk about this, but I for one, when I first heard I am good as this sort of climactic line of this action sequence was like, I don't understand exactly what the depth of meaning is to this because on its surface it feels so simple. But as our favorite well-coffed brother, you know, told us, right? Like simple things are, you know, sometimes the things you want to look out for. So anything else you want to say about this skirmish, this sort of like,

I guess, I mean, we can hit this more in the Halbran chat later, because as you just noted, that that Reddit comment really connects to everything that's going to come with the Sauron reveals, but that idea of good people are good regardless of circumstances, it did make me think of one of the first things we hear in the entire show in that prologue, which is Galadriel saying nothing is evil in the beginning. And so... Which is a quote about Sauron from the books, by the way. Right.

And so, like, that's very top of mind, of course, as we watch this penitent Sauron experience and think about that and parse that. But I think also, like... That's my favorite jam band, by the way. This penitent Sauron experience. I once followed them on tour. They opened for fish and it was really good. So, yeah.

I would buy merch. Absolutely. Absolutely. The t-shirt with all the tour stops listed on the back and instead of bullet points, it's just evil eyes. And it's just like, oregano, prune, merc wood. Brickled brambles. All right. Yeah.

But yeah, like there's something. There's at once a consistency and I think an interesting like inherent tension there because there's something about your eternal state and the, the state of like, again, your essence and your soul, how that is informed, though, by the choices you make and all of the different paths or forks in the path or bends in the river, where that can change. And I think like the idea that your state is fixed and eternal is in some ways in, maybe not in conflict with, but I guess in a conversation with the idea that it is, it is always inherently volatile and influenced, because that's what it means.

to be alive. Speaking of being alive and also not being alive. We lose. Last week when I said we needed more main characters to die, I did not mean Sadok Burroughs for the record. It's unacceptable. Saddock takes a big wound that looks bad. And then he keeps fighting.

So I was like, oh, I guess it wasn't that bad. But he was just adrenaline was pushing him through the battle because when it's over, he decides to sit and die. Our wizard pal is right there, and we know he can't. Okay, this is my, with love and respect, my Friday afternoon quarterbacking of this episode. I would just have our wizard pal passed out from the effort. And if he's passed out and Saddak is dying and he can't heal him, that's fine. But he's right there while Saddick is sitting down the wrong dying.

You know, you fought the mudhorn and you're, he's not. You're tuckered out. You need a nap. Sleepy, you know? I feel like we've seen him pass out from efforts before. So, you know, that could have solved that for me. But it was, that being said, the peaceful acceptance of death is a very Tolkienian, you know, so like, were the wizard not ambling into frame and that overhead shot of Saddock just sitting there dying, I would have fewer questions. But he does.

Amble, he does. But anyway, this is the. this is the moment that we like to thank our pal Brian Cogman, who came on at the beginning of the season, to talk to us about this wonderful Gandalf quote about death. And I'm not going to do the Ian McKellen impression. I'm so sorry, you'll have to go listen to Brian do it, right? But Gandalf says, end. No, the journey doesn't end there.

Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The gray curtain, the gray rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns out. to silver glass, and then you see it, white shores and beyond a far green country under a swift sunrise. So Sadex is there and watches the sun come up as he, you know, takes his last breath, but also tells Goldie the misses will be waiting for, you know, so when we talk about what does that far green country mean to you that like when when the rain curtain of this world rolls back and you see a far green country. I love this idea that like that far green country can look however it would look to you.

And to Saddok, it looks like, you know, his beloved departed wife is waiting for him. And that's beautiful. Lenny Henry is very emotional and wonderful in this departure. I agree completely. Have some notes on our guy the stranger not offering a healing helping hand and was also deeply moved by the the misses will be waiting for me and of course we talked about

the ring around his neck visible on his chest and like you know that was a that was a nice moment of closure there too like maybe maybe think a little bit of Luke and the presence of the sun there oh the binary sunset yeah saddock I'll miss him

what a great character just wonderful I'm so glad you invoked Luke in that moment because that's definitely the last time we're going to talk about The Last Jedi in this podcast episode. It's not going to come up again. I want to try. So something I found out that I,

that was really interesting is that, you know, before Peter Pan was a book, it was a stage play that J.M. Barry put together. And there's this great, someone is like, you know, because everyone has examined everything Tolkien has ever written on a piece of paper ever, they found this old, I don't know, journal entry, I think, that he wrote about seeing Peter Pan as a young man on the stage. And so if you think about the themes of Peter Pan and like the childlike wonder of the hobbits and the Harfoots and stuff like that, you can tie that back into Peter Pan.

But the Peter Pan line that I always think about is to die would be an awfully big adventure, right? And I always think about that when I think about this idea of like, is death a thing to be feared or is. is death a thing to sort of be interested in what comes next, that sort of thing, which brings us to adventures. Jo, to the well-organized mind. That's but the next great adventure. I love it. I love it.

So, adventures, many partings. Norie and Stanger, the Stranger, have a lovely conversation that we heard at the top of this episode about adventures and journeys, fellowship, friendship. Joe, this is really emotional. Like really emotional. Not to just start sobbing

in the middle of our pod. But really, I was just like thinking about you and doing this with you and how wonderful it's been and what a gift it's been. I really was. And like,

you know, our pot in general, but like getting to talk about Lord, the ring is something we both love so much. And we love it when it's there just for us. That's the journey. But to get to share it with you was the adventure. And it was just like one of the joys of my life. It was so great. I feel exactly the same way. We've been talking again and week by week about the fact that we're covering House of the Dragon Rings of Power concurrently.

And like sort of what you and I have such a long history with Game of Thrones. It's like the bedrock of both of our careers essentially. And so there's a lot of joy in being back in that world that we're really familiar with. But this feels so special to me. And I'm really sad that it's ending for now because, like, this is something that we've built together, you and I. This is something that I, you and I both have a very strong, existed emotional attachment to you.

And I know we have emotional attachment to Thrones as well. But like, I feel so emotional about Tolkien. I first read Tolkien because of someone I fell in love with. I would like watch it. you know, go to the theater every year with my friends from college. I would rewatch it every year at Christmas with my friends throughout the years. Like, this is a, this is a, like, a love language for me as Tolkien. So to get to show this with you and all the people who are listening, like, I understand

that this has been a divisive show, but for me it is, and like, you know, as we've outlined, we've got our questions, comments, and concerns. But, like, it is such an emotional text, I think, because Tolkien is digging so profoundly into these elemental ideas of good and evil and faith and all that sort of stuff. And there's that sincerity, right? And nothing is more sincere than what happens here with the wizard, with the Harfoots, with these goodbyes and the adventures of and the contrast between a journey done alone and adventure, a podcast done together in fellowship.

You don't have to, like, do what I like to do in word search the word adventure and the Hobbit to know that it comes up a million times. There's so many moments when Bilbo was talking about adventure. You can practically hear Martin Freeman say I'm going on an adventure. Like, this is a cherished word for Tolkien. No, he doesn't mind a journey either, an unexpected one. That's fine. But I love this Bilbo quote from The Hobbit where he says when he first meets Gandalf, right? And he says, dear me, not the Gandalf who was responsible or so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the blue for mad adventures.

Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves or sailing in ships sailing to other shores. Bless me, life used to be quite interested. I mean, used to upset things badly in these parts once upon a time. I beg your pardon, but I had no idea you were still in business. It's always been kind of an iconic dunk right at the end there. I love that. Love it so much. I think my favorite adventure mention in The Hobbit comes really early because it's

one of those, like I'm a real sucker for an easy mark for a sentence or a paragraph that tells you what sort of story you're about to be in store for, but also leaves it completely open to your anticipation. So I've always loved, this is about Baggins's. They never had any adventures or did anything unexpected. You could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him. This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbor's respect, but he gained, well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end. Love that.

He gained a ring that was totally chill and fine. No problem. I also think it's worthwhile thinking about the word adventure in the Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey. Since you and I talk about the Heroes Journey a lot, obviously, in our examinations of these stories, but literally one of the steps in the Joseph Campbell Hero Journey cycle is the call to adventure. That's the word to use, the call to adventure.

And the example that people use about the call to adventure is usually either Gandalf knocking on Frodo or Bilbo's door or Obi-1 Canobi like taking Luke off planet. Like those are the two big examples of pop culture that people use. But it's, I'll just read this description, the call to adventure in case people don't spend time looking at the Joseph Campbell Heroes Journey stages. is the call to adventure sets the story rolling by disrupting the comfort of the hero's ordinary world presenting a challenge or quest that must be undertaken. The call throws the ordinary world off balance and establishes the stakes involved if the challenge is rejected, often delivered by the Harold archetype. The call to adventure can take a multitude of forms.

That's classic being Gandalf, Obi-1, Agrid and Doubledore. But it also can be like a traumatic event, like what sets its stark kids loose in sort of of in Westrose, et cetera. So I love that, like, when, when Norrie's family pushes her out the door, a lovely contrast to everyone in Hobbiton being like, we don't go on adventures, right? Her family. And this is a journey, of course, for Goldie, especially, who has been, like, don't go out there.

You belong out there. out there, like the ordinary world. And I think that ordinary world idea is so important. I think it's the larger pattern of what we've been dealing with in this season, because not in this interview, but elsewhere, Jady and Patrick have said

that, like, season one was sort of, like, getting viewers familiar with the world. And we've talked about the various, like, ceremonies and, like, you know, rituals and traditions we've seen of Newman, or of Casa Dune, of the Harfoots, I guess of the Southlanders just mostly seems to involve mud, like all that sort of stuff, right? Like, and the importance of that, the importance of like the earlier step on the Joseph Campbell hero's journey is being in the ordinary world and understanding what's at stake, right?

We've talked about it a lot. What are these people defending? What is worth defending about Kazadun? What is worth defending about Lyndon? What is worth defending about Newman or so that when the fights start, we understand what's worth protecting. Luke, you're like, it's a moisture farm. It doesn't seem that great.

But, you know, that's why. So this is why I want to go back to Faramir for a second. Faramir says, I love this quote about Faramir because he's talking about, Faramir is an accomplished soldier, but he's talking about what he views, how he views war. And he says, war must be while we defend our lives. against the destroyer who will devour all. But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.

I love only that which they defend, the city of the men of Numenor, and I would have her love for her memory, her ancient tree, her beauty and her present wisdom, not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man old and wise. Again, book Fairmir done so dirty in the movies. He just says shit like this all the time. But like that idea of, I do not love the bright short for its sharpness or the arrow for its swiftness. I love the things that they protect and defend.

And so it made sense for us to be with these lovely harfoots for as long as we were this season so that we know as Poppy goes out into the wide world to have her adventure, like this is what she is off to protect and save. Joe, I love the hero's journey, as you know. I love a call to adventure. I love a refusal of the call. I love all of the steps. Oh, I, of course, you know, you noted with Goldie and even inside of this, this

Hartfoot family and inside of the season, the steps on their journey. And I loved that we got to hear some of that evoked here, like the call back to the river flowing, the call back to the sparrows, you know, normally. Norie wanting to know where do they learn their new songs and that this was the exact language that Goldie that her mother used to send her out into the world and to show, because it's not only that support and encouragement, it's a, it's a deep understanding of the thing that Norie is longing for, the thing that she is craving and that she believes that she needs. And, you know, once again, that absolute chart top and banger, this wandering day was on my mind because of that beautiful line that we've discussed. at length already, I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead. And that that for a lot of the Harfoots was not only a scary thing, but almost a sacrilegious thing, a threat to the very center and core of their creed and their mantra and the way that they lived their lives and pursued the shared protection. And a collective embrace, like to not have to be one person

who is separating yourself from your community, but to feel that community around you pushing you forward with encouragement and nurturement as you then pursue the thing that you need in your life was beautiful. And like I just, I love that all of those things can happen inside of the same thread of the story. I really thought that was wonderful. I was in tears at this part. Just, like I cried like straight through it basically. We will miss Sonic Burroughs forever. Lovely, lovely man. But that means a promotion for our babe Mova. This is a great moment to be us for a long time Malva heads. However, I do have some concerns about the map reading. The world's biggest Malva heads. Like, possibly it's us. It's us. Um, yeah. But, in theory, Poppy will be there for her more on that at a second. But we're going to talk about that a second. I like the only time I stopped crying was to be mad about this then when I went back to crying. So anyway, um, we, you mentioned, uh,

Your is Poppy Smeagle theory? One of my favorite all-time Mali Rumen theories. Yeah. We got this great email from Nicole who wrote, wasn't Smeagel from a Hobbit like people, yes, who lived around the Gladden Fields, which is close to Merckwood and the undoing. What if,

what if the song Poppy sang was not just an intentional nod to Smeagel, but a reminder that he came from a Hobbit like race, and maybe we'll meet his grandmother, who was a very important person around, own right, per Gandalfan Fellowship, or have we met Smeagels, Gran? My speculation theory is that Poppy, Norik, and Saddak, well, RIP, this person didn't know Saddak died when they wrote this email, will somehow splinter off made with others and found what we know as a shire and other Harfits will stay in the south and create the colony that eventually

gave a Smeagel. But hopefully Poppy and Nori will meet eligible young bachelors. I mean, Nori has got to be a forerunner of a tok. So is Poppy? of this. Poppy Smeagels grand. I mean, I'm here for this. This is delightful. Absolutely, absolutely wonderful. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the way that the lore gets passed down, the lessons from Harfoot's past. So the idea that young Smeagel would one day hear from any of these characters about not taking a shit by the river in case you want to take a drink later, it's comforting. Let's that is that Largo's music I hear? Let's Carlos Lee play us this clip from Largo, please. You know how hungry he gets.

And an extra blanket in case he get cold. Right. Let's see you. Some father. Here you're heading in the big beyond and I haven't taught you a blooming thing. No. Sure you have. Always quench your fire, water and earth.

Don't squat by a river Never know when you'll need a drink Demonstrate a man And a heart foot without manners Is his like to get far in life As a square It was just intolerant father Of wrenching

So Dylan Smith is the actor Who plays Largo Uh stealth MVP of making me cry this season Honestly Like every time he gives a speech I've been crying So shout out to Largo

You better be in season two I'll be mad because listen here's speaking of being mad Poppy says goodbye to Nori and then Nori walks away and then Poppy does what can only be described as the Sam run right like I'm coming after you right? Yes

and then she doesn't go with Norrie and I am absolutely I mean I'm not flummox the same way I'm flummox about like why did Settuk die with a healer 10 like 10 feet from him. I'm just sort of like, I am sure that Patrick and J.D. have a plan. I didn't ask about this, but I was just like mortally wounded by Poppy not going with Nori. It was a beautiful

moment. Nori gives a beautiful reason why they're having this parting of the ways. Because I think if we didn't, then we'd never learn anything new. But that's in response to Poppy saying, why does everyone I love the most always have to. to go away. Well, the response could have been. Why don't you come with me? And then we can be together like Proto and Sam will be one day. Like let Malva figure out the brickle brambles.

Poppy, come with me. Yeah. You showed Melva how to turn around the map. Everything's fine now. My jaw was on the floor. I was sobbing because it's a beautiful moment between two. beautiful young women who just like have this beautiful friendship. You're my best friend in this white, wild world.

You know, like, it's so beautiful. And I was so mad at the same time. I was just like, go. So listen, J.D. and Patrick, if you're listening to this right now, if you want to open up season two with Poppy just being like, JK, I'm coming. I would love that. I won't be mad. I won't say a thing.

I'll just rejoice. Yeah. just hurrying through the high grass. Let's do it. Pack up a bag in a hurry. Everyone's already huddled around to help. How long can it possibly take? Just a sack of snails and you're good to go, right?

They already have snails. She doesn't even really have to pack. Some snail mix. You're good to go, right? Snail mix. Delicious. Okay. So I've been saying the stranger and the wizard and I think we did drop the G word,

but this is when we're going to talk about Noria and this wizard. Yeah. who drops here in conversation. A classic Gandalf follow your nose moment. So most of the internet has decided, as they did many, many moons ago that this guy is definitely Gandalf. I'm not sure.

How do you feel about it? Mallory Rubin. So we already had a lot of supporting evidence, a lot of clues, some of them even just mannerisms. of course the color of his cloak, etc. The confirmation that he is a wizard inside of this episode.

I am open. I remain open to the blue possibility, certainly. Always ready and willing to be convinced. However, I will say, you don't do always follow your nose unless it's canned out. What if he's too canned Sam?

You know what I mean? I mean, like, I mean, It's just a line. Like I texted you. We each had a thing that we, a couple of, actually, we had the two same things that we shouted the line right before the character said it. We'll talk about the other soon. But this was one of them.

We're talking about the smell on the air. And it's like, follow your nose. Follow your nose. And then he says it. So maybe it's just because we are, it's a fun thing for the entire internet to think that this is canned off. But that's, that's where I am. How about you?

You're in team, you're team blue? I'm team. Well, I'm team. I don't know. I genuinely. And we'll talk about team blue. in a second. But I will say, like, in terms of him saying the line, and I actually at the end of I think it might not matter. That's something we can talk about. But like, we've had a bunch of

characters on the show say lines that other characters have said elsewhere, right? Like Bronwyn dropping a sandline. Totally. It's such a signature. Maybe they learned it all in wizarding school. Maybe. Maybe Hogwarts in the sky. Yeah. Hogwarts in the sky. Like, there's just, you know, follow your nose. knows one-on-one. Anyway, in the text, there are these two blue wizards that Tolkien was like forever sort of noodling with and never really figured out. And we'll talk about that mourn ring too. But one thing we do know is that these two blue wizards who are unnamed or named depending on what version of what you read, they go to the east, which is run, which is

where this wizard and nory are headed. That's where the blue wizards go. So honestly, of the day, I think it's fine if he's Gandalf. He's early for Gandalf. I don't really care. It's fine if he's Gandalf. And it's also fine to me if he's one of the blue wizards. But, like, obviously, they're wanting to make you think that he is very Gandalfy in nature. So. And, like, from the beginning, we've, we've thought we're getting at least a Frodo. And we thought, Sam, and Gandalf dynamic, you know what I mean. So, okay. Anything else you want to say about the Hartfoot? it's as we bit them farewell until the end of 2023, which is definitely when we are getting more rings of power.

Let's manifest it. Just a beautiful group of characters and a beautiful part of the show that I loved and cherished and we'll miss dearly. Maybe someday Chris Ryan will agree with us that the Harfutts are wonderful. Dare to dream. Okay. Meanwhile, in Oregon. Yeah.

Here we come to it. By the way, you've had to wait until the, like, this far into the podcast for us to talk about. The episode was no time. Like, immediately, like, we see Galadryl and, like, a sack of potatoes, which is Hallibirin on a horse, galloping towards Oregon. And then, like, almost immediately thereafter, we get Hallibrand and Calabrand and Borrambor. in a room together. Just like right away. Must be easier to heal a fake injury.

Sauron. All right. We've talked about this before, but is it just me or is he like just slat, like dripping in the accent when he walks and he's like, is Galadriel here? Like I was like, what is this? What is his accent? And I love that Charlie Vickers, who plays Sauron, aka Halibran, yep.

Told an entertainment weekly that he's like the world's greatest method. actor. He's like Daniel Day Lewis. He has to fully immerse himself. So he genuinely believe that he thinks accent work is part of Sauron's whole thing. I love this. I love this. I love the idea of Sauron just like crunching tape going through all of Game of Thrones, tracking the way the Little Fingers accent evolved season over season, episode over episode. Oh, the way that he says, a memorable shade. Got it. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready to head to the veil. What did you think? I mean, like, we've, I don't know.

We've done, I think, a pretty good job of tracking theme and language and some performance. But I don't know if we've praised the production design enough on this show. And I will say that this reveal of the forge, the workshop of Kelle Brimbor that they've been building all season, I thought was one of the most beautiful sets we saw. What did you think of it? Incredible. The feast for the actual. eyes as was the clear parallel to the eye when the molten properly

blended or yeah receives the me thrill as its little pupil slid at last that was awesome um i loved would you rather a mithril pupil uh-huh yeah or a or a cat's paw dagger pupil that were getting a run house of the dragon oh love both i also enjoyed on the pupil front when Sauron and Galadriel have their close camera, close-up shouting match in the Mind Palace and Hal Brand's eyes just turn into the slit Sauron eyes. That was great. Some great eyeball tracking in this episode. She had like these beautiful like swirl of blue in her.

And like part of that is I think to see J hide the camera reflection, but part of it too, it just like it looked really beautiful. Anyway, yeah. Swim in that ocean, Joe. not going to stop swimming now. Ocean ice. Can't do it. Can't stop swimming now. The, on the forge front,

this was genuinely funny to me and I loved this. Like, as you said, the second the Halibrand walks out there's glottrial here and this is collodrial here. Calabrimbor. Not the Calibranbor. And Calibrembor goes from being defeated and downturnalibor.

and downtrodden to booting up his electric shades from the shades store. Cannot wait. Puffing out his chest. To give Albrand the tour of the board. I'm so excited. It's so funny. Calibrand is here. I love that.

The Calibrimbor. It's just amazing. All right. So we get, first of all, because we usually watch, these episodes on the screeners, first of all, love to watch it with closed captioning, which I did this morning, was really a whole different experience for me. Secondly, to watch it with some of those like Amazon X-ray features that Amazon does that I think every streaming platform should do, why don't they? But I like the detail that we like we learn in this design

for this workshop. These are a lot of the holly motif. Holly is like, Oregon is called Hollis, the holly, you know, design is like part of its inspiration. And also those electric shades from the shade store that you mentioned, that those are a gift from the dwarves. But how would I know that if I didn't use the Amazon X-ray feature? I don't know. But fun fact for me to know. And I think also like when we see the anvil and we see everything there, we're meant to think about that like sort of destroyed workshop that Galadriel encounters the beginning of the season. Right.

Because there was like an anvil there and stuff like that. Yeah. Halbrain shows a particular interest in the methril. Culea or, right? Just suspicious. I mean, not subtle. No. Not subtle. To the point where, you know, we're in the finale of the season and it has to happen.

Gladryl, and then some of this comes from what she later hears, Calabre. We're just parroting things that Adder has said. It was the key that opened the dam. Yeah, that was amazing. like describing the exact plot. Disimpaulating. Yeah. Avion of them land.

But like, and then the, the overflesh line as well. But these things are happening very quickly to go from no reason to doubt how the brand. And in fact, the nature of their tie had as we, as we talked about it, episode six and seven, oh boy, it was on a rocket ship of affection and bondage talk. And very quickly, that shifts here because, and he's got, I get just laying it on thick, thick with Calabrimbor. And whether that is because there's actual sorcery at play and Calibranbor is brought under his sway. The only reason I thought that was because of like the specificity of the language for him to use the exact same words that Adar used. And then when Galadriel asks him about that, he's like, uh, I don't know, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. I think I, yeah, my Smith said it. I think they're my words. and he genuinely seems to not know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Galadro gets suspicious pretty quickly of Halbrand. I would say also kind of late.

Like, we've said this to her from the start of like, maybe when you were in the Hall of Lor and or Law, like, and you were looking through some scrolls, maybe this is the scroll you should have been after the line of kings. Yes. So, okay, I will say, I said at the top of the episode that I generally loved the Galadriel Halblum plot in this episode, and their scenes together and their conversations together and everything in the My Palace, I thought was awesome. Yeah.

The fact that this truth is unearth so quickly because someone just decided to check the records finally. Like, we have that exchange where the guy says, oh, we don't really track the mortals, which I thought was very funny. they're totally beneath their attention and their time. But it's like, wait, Galadriel, you could have just gone on Wikipedia and you didn't take the time to do even that. Now, in some ways that's... Ancestry.com. Exactly.

Yeah. Hit up D23 and me. No, no free ads. The fact that I think in some ways, the fact that that like what seems to be a very quick and clear step to take doesn't happen, I actually think tracks and fits really well with this myopic. pursuit that Galadriel was on. And we've been talking about this a lot in Ring too,

this idea of her just like that false light reflected back at you. Yeah. But it's, it is tough also because it's like, oh. Again, if we had had three episodes for like him to do his seduction of Calibrimbor and her to grow increasingly suspicious, but still attracted to him or whatever else you want to call it, like, it's just so fast. It's very fast. So their first conversation,

Galan Hal. Galan Saar. Doesn't have quite the same ring. Can I have to workshop the couple name? I include it's a fun little threat, right? When he's like, you're great, you're wonderful, you push me to heist that no one else could have. I will never forget that.

And I'll see to it that no one else does either. Yeah. Cool stuff. Again, not super subtle. No. Well, I mean, we haven't, we didn't talk about it the moment. But the moment that I, like, shrieked out loud and I told you this in my office that I was watching this is when he was like, call it to Caliborneberg, call it out, he paused. And I was like, say a gift.

Say it. He was like, shouting a gift. He was like, a gift. And I was like, yes. Anyway. That was an amazing moment. You know, we've talked about it a lot in ring too, but Anatar, Lord of Gifts. Lord of Gifts.

Fair friend. Fair friend. I'm your friend. Galadriel, he says. All right. Galadriel. Showdown at the Glendouin River, right? Jig is most definitely up.

She is like listlessly holding this scroll of the family tree, which is like intricately carved on the, like, for all that we don't track the mortals, this scroll is in this beautiful scroll case with like, I don't know, dire wolves at the end or whatever. So he come, like, Halbrand, no longer, Sauron, he's Sauron, comes sprinting down to the river. Giddy, he's telling her, we're not going to make one, we're going to make two. Yep. This is definitely like his and hers rings of power that he wants to make, right? Yeah. Well, he's got a whole vision. Yeah, a whole vision for their shared future, as we will see shortly in the reflective surface.

So he's ready. He's ready to lock it down, Joe. Here's something that I loved. I was very concerned because I knew that this, like, what had to be true is that sort of like the second that Galadriel knows for certain that he's sour on and he admits it right away, right? I was like, oh no, is this over? Because I didn't want it to be over.

And then he does me and you and everyone we know a favor and just shoves her into a mind palace so that we can keep talking. And I was delighted that that happened. Absolutely great. I loved the mind palace sequence. I thought it was awesome. my favorite part of the finale, certainly. But that conversation that you mentioned right before that,

the one where he's like, yeah, yeah, you got me. The best part about that was he had no reason to do anything else because as he explains to her in this exchange that they have, he didn't really hide it at all at any point. Now, that doesn't mean there wasn't deception. Of course there wasn't. That is central, central to how he warped. and manipulates the truth and, of course, other people.

And we could not go through this episode without constantly thinking about what is one of the most important lines from the season, undoubtedly, which was their exchange in episode four, no, give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. That is so top of mind watching this admission. On the raft, you saved me. On the raft, you saved me. You convinced Mariel to save the men of Middle Earth.

You convince her. I wanted to remain in Numenor. You fought beside me against your enemy and mine. Tell me your name. This line gave me a chill. And this was an amazing line reading. Well, the way it was shot. It was the way to shot.

Yeah. And like an up angle. Yeah. I have been awake since before the breaking of the first silence. In that time, I have had many names. I've had many names. Episode three, what are you called again? Depends on what?

How close we are. It's just everything clicked into place. we were tracking this throughout, but even so, this will be such a rewarding rewatch. I can not wait to watch it through the lens of this confirmation. Yeah, this has been the party and ring too this whole time as us being like, okay, this is Sauroni, this is Sauroni, this is Sauroni. But yeah, I think rewatching, knowing for absolute certain there's just going to be a ton of stuff to enjoy.

Your guy Finnrod with the Silver Lake, Key of the Silver Lake fade. Man, great to see in action here. I loved this actor's performance of this because to go from Finrod, and again, the casting of him, too, because he's got such a beautiful elven face, but also it's scary in this sequence. He is like all serpent in the garden in his conversation with her here. And I thought that Morphith Clark making Galadriel, like, resistant and then under the thrall and not. and more childlike because the last time we saw her there she was a child

like I thought her performance involved like not wanting to believe but wanting to believe I thought that was just really beautiful also sexual attention award to Finron and Galadriel because you know

maybe this is I've been watching too much house of the dragons but because he's actually Sauron and we can get to a second whether or not you want this seduction to be romantic

or not, there's a seduction that he's trying to seduce her with her fondest memory. And so you get this very upsetting thing introduced here. Quite charged. And I think that as he then continues to make the case in the next sequence on the raft for their shared

future, which we'll talk about in a second, it makes the Finrod play here really insidious. like one of that great moments that we talked about at the time earlier in this season was the apology after Galadriel reveals this great source of pain, the loss of her brother. Her brother. And his and Halbran, sorry, I'm apologizing for that.

And to not to know that this is the heart of this unflinching and ceasing pursuit, this loss, this grief, this pain. And to use that to try to sway her. And manipulate. Her. Exactly. And then to go into the next face of this and say, I think about how great we could be together is utterly sinister.

And so I will be keeping that in mind as we talk about the penitent. What was our parents called from an hour ago? Sauron, the penitent Saurid experience. Yeah. Calls himself friend. As you mentioned this is a key, a buzzword for good old Anatar here. You know, I am your friend. Okay.

As we get this raft conversation, he is crying, right? As he says, when Morgoth dies, it was as if a great clenched fist had released its grasp on my neck. I felt the light of the one again. Here, okay, we're getting into all of it. We're getting into the Pendant Saron Experience right now, right here, right now, okay? Again, we've been talking about it in Ring 2. Here's what I think is true of Charlie Vickers' decisions of how to play Haliborne and Saran. I honestly think everything he's saying has some truth in it.

I completely agree. Every single thing he says. That's why it's interesting. Exactly. So the fact that he's like, it's not just manipulation. There is definitely manipulation here. We see it in how quickly he turns, you know, from coaxing to threatening and stuff. like that. But I think it's true that under Morgoth, he felt, you know, stifled. He felt

discreet. And that's true of Sauron, Anatar in Tolkien's work that he was corrupted by Morgoth and taken from the light of Alivatar into the darkness and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. I thought that the you mentioned the emotion that is so central to this performance from both of them on the raft and just a really amazing stretch of the finale.

When this was really good there's the do not tell me what I believe response from Galadriel and he says he reminds her you told me after our victory you said that whenever I'd dumbed before I could be free of it now.

You deceived me. Galadryo replies, I told you the truth. I told you that I had done evil and you did not care because you knew that our past meant nothing weighed against our future. Now we'll talk about the glimpse of that future in a second. But in terms of that discussion of the past and the, I agree with you completely that there's truth to everything he's saying and that's why it's powerful and why it's compelling because the idea that he believes this all to be true is what is so dangerous.

about it is what is so seductive about it. And it made me think of like another Galadriel line that we had as one of the opening notes for the show. In the, in the two-part premiere in the conversation with Elron, evil does not sleep, Elron. It waits. And in our moment of complacency, it blinds us. And I think it's really interesting to watch this conversation thinking about how that not only applies to Galadriel, but also to Saran himself there in terms of the way that he's thinking about his own repentance. and the truth inside of him and how he is giving into it or fighting against it. Charlie Vickers has given a bunch of interviews post this reveal. He can finally actually talk about his character.

He's a great interview. His quotes are amazing. And he's clearly taking the scholarship very seriously, which I love. Has been like reading all the Tolkien letters, et cetera. So he's been citing some of these quotes about a penitent saron that we have been discussing in Ring 2 in previous episodes. So here's a couple passages from the Silmarillion about the penitent Sauron, right? And so after the fall of Morgoth, and some hold that this was not at first falsely done his penitence, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear.

Charlie Vickers keeps talking about that idea of fear as a motivation for Sauron here. Being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. Then Sauron was ashamed and he was unwilling to return it. in humiliation, and to receive from the valour a sentence, it might be of long servitude and proof of his good faith. For under Morgoth, his power had been great. Therefore, he hid himself in Middle Earth, and he fell back into evil for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

So exactly what you're saying, that evil that waits inside of him, that he cannot perch himself from. And he sees, we're going to talk about this second, right, but he sees Galadryl as the only opportunity to purge himself of that dark, or at least balance it. Okay. Right. And I think, like, the idea of fear as the motivation for repenting is really interesting, because on the one hand, that's, like, the most actually human and relatable thing. Fear's the mind killer, right? You have to work through your fear. But I think it's also true that if fear is your only, propulsive force, then there is not really that kernel of goodness there. There is not that balance inside or the capacity for it for long, because the thing that you're motivated by is it's an absence,

right? It's not a presence. Like you are seeking to avoid culpability, accountability, shame, punishment. You are not actually seeking betterment. Right. He's not willing to do the work. it takes for an actual proper redemption, right? Yeah. Can I just say of all of the great Charlie Vickers quotes, I was cackling. There's a great line in the THR interview where, because he revealed that he didn't know yet

that he was star on for the premiere. And then knew after episode two. For episode two, right, the double premiere. And then knew after they returned from the COVID break. But I was just going to read this. This is so funny. I did have an inkling, if I'm honest with you. My last two auditions were reading lines from Richard the third, and we know he's not

the greatest guy in the world. And then the other audition lines were for Paradise Lost, where you're literally giving the speech as Satan. So that gave me an inkling. There was something up. All of Charlie's interviews have been fantastic. There's a THR one, and EW one at NYT one. I would read all of them.

And a Radio Times one, I think, as well. So then we get, like, one of the coolest things. I've ever seen, right? Which is they're on the raft or on the choppy seas. This is a cool thing for him to do because it's like, remember how we met sort of thing. Yeah, remember our meat cute. Yeah. Right?

But then the choppy sees go glassy and I gasped. I got so excited because the glassy surface is, of course, going to provide us an opportunity to do a mirror of Galadriel moment, which is exactly what we get. The mirror of Galadro, that chapter, I think if you go back and rereadry, that chapter, I think if you go back and reread it, knowing what this show intends to do with the history between Sauron and Galadryl, that chapter, reread, reread that entire chapter. It's very rewarding. And I talked to Jady and Patrick about it. We'll talk about it a lot in that interview. But when he says the tides of fate thing to her, that is something Galadriel says in that chapter, right? And then we get, like,

the most overt thing when he said, make you a queen, fair as the sea and the sun, that is a direct excerpt from Galadriel and Kate Blanchett's like extremely famous in place the dark laurel you will set up a queen speech from that section of fellowship. What like

ran through your body as this moment happened? Chills. Chills. The surge of electricity. Visually stunning. This is like what the show has done so well throughout the first season. These utterly visually arresting

jaw-dropping moments that are so rewarding because of the character arc and the thematic resonance at play there. And that vision, yeah, same experience thinking of that was just like seeing in, it almost was like I had a split screen in my mind or a picture and picture and was watching Game Blanchette as Galadriel and the way that the, because we talked about in our pod with Brian like some of the horror elements. in the way that that was presented in fellowship. And so in addition to everything that it's calling on there, of course I was thinking of the relief that surges through and courses through Galadriel in fellowship when she's like, I passed the test. Because this is, of course, another test too, right?

A constant choice to be good. Exactly. Exactly. And I love like you said revisiting the chapter and the text because one of the things that I really enjoy about that stretch of fellowship is there's the presentation of facts about the mirror in general. And then there's like the specific tailoring because in the film it's Frodo, but also Sam is there in the book. And so like the specific tailoring of what Galadriel is saying to both of them. And with Frodo, there's that you may

learn something and whether what you see be fair or evil that may be profitable. And yet it may not seeing is both good and perilous. And there's that idea again, right? Yet I think, Ferro that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture or I would not have brought you here. And then with Sam, remember that the mirror shows many things you were referencing this earlier, not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to pass unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds. And so that last line, the mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds, was really top of mind for me, given the choices that Galadriel makes after you refer to him as Detective Elron, that our notes

out of the river later, because in their exchange, they're discussing this idea of trust that they have, they're calling back to the beginning of the episode, but also their history earlier in the season. But the choice that Galadriel is making to not reveal what happened here, to carry that inside instead of sharing that burden with Elron. I have some questions about that. I do as well. I do as well. The mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.

And so there's that fear of what she saw, right? And so in an effort to avoid it, what mistakes do you make maybe along the way? Let's listen, shall we, to a little bit of gal and hal here on the raft, Carlisley plays for us. Ray, I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy. Don't do this, but... Oh, my God. Please don't go this way.

No, no, you're still holding eyes. Let's call! Oh, sorry, wait, that was the wrong clip, Krales. Will you play the actual clip from this scene, please? We were brought together for a purpose. This is it. You bind me to the light, and I bind you to power. Together, we can say.

this middle earth. Safe or rule. I see no difference. And that is why. Be at your side. I see no difference. Give me a chill. Just an absolutely iconic

Kylo Red soundbite pull. Great work. Thank you to Carlos for conspiring. So there's so, like, I hesitate sometimes to pull in Kylo and Ray because it is such a controversial Star Wars thing. and I don't want anyone to think I am insulting anything.

Like, I love The Last Jedi. I love Kylo and Ray. I love the throne and fight. I love this conversation after. So this is the highest of compliments when I say there is. Sauron is reading right out of the Kylo Ren gaslight, nag, persuade a textbook here, you know, when he's like, the Ellis rejected you. Only I see your power.

Only I alone can see your greatness, which is Kylo saying to Ray, you're nothing, you're no one, but not to me, right? And so bring them low so that they will go home with you is, you know, is the energy coming off of these two guys. Not dark, not with you at my side, he says. How much do you believe, do you believe that? Do you believe he wants the lightness or do you believe he just wants the power? I think both. I think they're entwined in his mind.

I think that he's viewing Galadriel as a. rare peer in terms of power, capability. They obviously have had a very sincere and real connection. You know, one of our favorite moments of the season was after the battle in episode six when they're sitting on their log, not having sex. And instead having this also wonderful exchange, I never believed, like, well, this is actually I'll read the prior line too because it's relevant to what we talked about a few minutes go whatever it was he did to you, whatever it was, you did be free of it. And Halburn replies,

I never believed I could be until today fighting at your side. I felt, if I could just hold on to that feeling, keep it with me always, bind it to my very being. And I think that he feels that. You could feel that he felt that and meant it. But I think it is also true that the reason that that is meaningful to him is because it is something that will fuel his quest for power, will fuel his effort to remake Middle Earth in his image, which is a violation of that sub-creator code and instead then a pursuit of like true godlike status to remake the world in your image. And I don't know, like I was thinking of the, you mentioned the key damn line earlier, which was great.

You know, we've been talking about the Adar, Sauron, we can just say that, relationship. And we said that before the whole time. But now that we know that it's Halbrand and we can play back their exchange, who are you, all of that? The rage that Al-Brand carried as he stood above him and looked down on him and what he took from him. Like, it's interesting to think about

so that you can master them idea and the look in Sauron's eyes as he arrives back in the, now in Mordor at the end and is looking out to Mount Doom. When he, uh, what, simply walks into Mordor?

Simply walks into Mordor. They don't have as much security in place yet. This all happened. It's all had been pretty recently. Yeah, pretty recently. But like, did Adar co-opted

this mission and actually do the thing that Sauron wanted? Yeah. because they're clearly in opposition and enemies. I mean, he says that outright in this episode, but did he still get the thing that he wanted out of it in the end? I mean, it seems as though the, well, something that he might talk about this a little bit worming too,

but like something that Charlie Vickers has had an interview is that like, how did Hallibrand run up on the raft and like all that sort of stuff? Or how did Salron run run up on the raft is something they're going to explore in season two. So we're going to find out and think a little bit more about like what was the plan, What was that branding all about and all that sort of stuff? Right, right. Going back in two, you buy me the lead, I buy into the power. Yeah.

And the title of this episode, which is alloyed, this concept of Halbrane and Galadriel, two precious metals, you know, can they combine? We get a couple, as they are talking about the rings in the process and Caleb Brimbor's process, We get a couple interesting quotes about these combinations. Right. So Halbran, again, laying on the Southland accent. I'm just a poor, humble, Southlander act. Where I came from, precious metals were scarce his head's teeth. So we learned to combine them to harness strengths and hide flaws. I've seen a trace of nickel add to iron to make a blade lighter and stronger.

Might there not be some alloy to amplify the qualities of your ore? Right? So exactly what you're saying. Bind Galadriel to him to amplify his power, the qualities of his oar, right? And I love, I love Calaburn more here talking about the problem they're having with Mithriel. He says, the Mithril is proud or refuses every effort to bond with lesser oars. That sounds like Galadryl to me.

And then he says the metals shouldn't be forced to join, but more drawn or coax together. That's them. That's Galangelo. That's Gal and Hal. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much are you still shipping it between Sauron and Galadry? Oh, boy. You know, not zero, which is troubling. Yeah. It's a problem. How about you? Okay. So we got this email from Kim who wrote, one thing I haven't, I'm going to answer your question.

One thing I haven't heard discussed much on the topic of Sauron's identity is the notion that not only elves, but the audience as well, must be seduced by his arguments in order. for the show to drive home the impact of his character. I have faith in these show owners, so I believe that they will try to make viewers fall for Sauron's charm and deceit, just as elves do. Of course, as viewers were either suspect or no outright, that she wrote this again before the finale, outright that someone, Hallibran is Sauron or an attorney in disguise,

but I think that Sauron will come off as charming, funny, wise, and seemingly helpful. This will allow us to fully understand how the creations of the rings came to pass. Now, Kim wrote this before I saw the finale. We zipped through a lot of this. This was like my vision for season two that we would just be like hanging out in a regia and whatever. That's fine. That era is done. But I do think introducing us to Sauron and Salabrand, hiding Sauron in an Aragorn package is a great way to seduce the audience into being interested and invested in this character so that when he cries, we're like, oh, my God, our Aragorn, you know, counterpart is crying.

It puts him squarely in my favorite TV trope bucket, which is the problematic fave, right? No, not square. He's outside the bucket. We're going to talk about the limits in the bucket in a second, right? But, like, okay, we talk about this all the time. Jamie Lannister, of course. And again, Sawyer-on-Law, Spike on Buffy, and the common thread through these problematic faves is usually. I'm a monster but not for you.

Like you can change me. Your guy, Damon Targaryen. Yeah. My guy Damon, right? I will murder only for you now. Which is a, it's a female power fantasy. We talk about male power fantasy all the time. This is why this trope is so popular with women is like you can convert a monster into like your pet.

The things I do for love. Yeah. How powerful is that, right? there are limits as I said like I think the people problematic faving serum killers played by Evan Peters that's that's that's that's well beyond the limit that's not okay as far as I'm concerned so if you're sitting at home being like Juana is literally sour on I promise I hear you and Charlie Vickers is on your side. Charlie Vickers does not shift this, right? He says, to EW, he said, I think when Halbron presents himself to her in the final episode, he basically makes a pitch. He says,

let's do this. You can be the queen. I'll be the king. He says, I don't think it's out of romance at all. It's not a proposal. It's based on his own personal gain. He thinks he can rule more effectively with her at his side. And if she says, no, by no means is at the end of the world. I think he is evil and he is terrible. And in the end, he's going to be in charge by himself. And whether or not she's by his side, he'll find a way to do that. But this time, it'll be more effective with her there. I'm going to say, you know, far be it from me to contradict the actor himself about his own character. But I will say there's, like, different levels of romance.

And if what, Valerie's smirking of me, this is like obsession possession, right? Which is not a healthy romance. It's a bad romance. But I don't think you can completely divorce it from. from if you're grabbing a woman's face, not even gravely, tenderly cradling her chin and talking about making her your queen

and you're telling me there's no romance involved in that? I don't know. How do you feel? I agree. And I think maybe it's more, maybe it's less romance in the traditional way that we think about it and more longing and lust.

Lust, possession. Yeah. And those ways. is Galadriel and his quest are of a piece for him. There's lust and longing there, not necessarily in a like, again, let's go get married and start our little Mordor family.

Though maybe also that. I don't know. Right. And I think he probably could not separate his lust for power. Power or his like lust. Right. Exactly. Lust. Desire, if you prefer, to keep it more Tolkien and family friendly for her.

And I know a lot of people, you know, who have been wise to this whole Halber and Saran thing from the start vehemently object to any kind of like Halbron Galadriel, Sauron Galadriel sort of, you know, bad romance situation. But it's a really potent storytelling device. And I, for one, would like to see more trips to the Mine Palace as they have. You know, you know how, like, Kyle and Ray do there for Skyping? I won't for Skyping, yeah. With, uh, I'm in,

with Gal and Hal, like for the rest of the season, right? I quite agree. Yeah, it's, it's, it's,

it really is a potent thing. And, you know, one of the things, one of the lines that we held on to most throughout the season was the Gilgalad line to Elrond about Galadriel. We foresaw that if it had, she might have inadvertently kept alive the very evil she sought to defeat for the same wind that seeks to blow out of fire may also cause it spread.

And I think that it is, It's like, you know, it's important for us to talk about the way that that, that, that desire and that the thing that was like, sparked there, the fire that was spreading was going in both directions. And that's why, like, it was one of the very first things that you said about why Hal Branda Sauron was such a compelling outcome and such an interesting thing to track across the season because of not just what it told us about him. And, you know, the point you were making earlier, like us as viewers being seduced in the same. way falling, falling under his sway in the same way that the characters around him were, which was happening, absolutely. But because of what that then meant for Galadriel and her own self-awareness and reflection about her own, the limits of her perspective for a character who is so certain and so hell-bent on pursuing a given outcome. And that was part of her journey this

season, was actively confronting that across the most recent episodes. And then even in the face of confronting that and grappling with where that led, then this final thing is still there to wrestle with. And then you go forward from there and the, what are, what are your fellow elves going to think when they learn that you were my ally? Like, she, she's not rid of him yet, right? And that's part of a, that's part of a coupling too. It's like the mark of that doesn't just leave you the second that you part ways that you're not. not both in the same physical place. Not toppling.

The bowels of the brothel. Is it bowels of the brothel? I need to start saying that early right. Okay. Anyway. Probably. Pleasure den, actually. Might be brothels.

Pleasure barge. Pleasure den. Okay. Anyway, as much of a hot Sauron who fucks, man I am, it's hard to root for him when he threatens to expose her. She's going to expose him. But it, like, I have a little. little bit of an issue with this working on Galadriel.

They tied themselves a little bit of a narrative, narrative not here because what is key from canon is that Galadriel and Gil Gallid are the two people on whom Anatar's shit never worked, right? So we're changing that a little in that it works on Galadriel until we get to a regan, which is, you know, when he does true Anatar shit, and then it's immediately spelled broken. She's like, what's going on here? And I thought it was interesting that line that Gil Gallet has earlier when Kellebram brings up Hal Branden and he says, the low man gave you this idea.

So that, you know, that gives us maybe like a little breadcrumb trail towards like Gilgallad being an early like, you know, and we've got Detective Elrond on the case trying to like figure out what's going on here. But I just have a hard time believing that Galadry would know that. he's sourn and not tell people. She feels like she's rid of me. He's gone. She's like he's not coming back.

And if he does, don't talk to him. Don't think Caliborneboar's going to follow her instructions. But like, she's like, okay, he's gone. What might work for me is if she is somewhat under a spell in a way that she doesn't quite realize. Because fake Finrod, he of the Silver Lake Fade, says, you need lie to them, simply let the work. proceed, you know, and we heard Kelbrinbor repeat those words in a way, again, that felt like he was under some kind of spell. So, like, if she's doing this, because she thinks she's making, she's, like, steering the ship, but she's under a thrall of some kind, that works better for me

than her being blackmailed by the devil. Yes, I don't know. This was, yeah, the, everything in the actual conversations between them, excellent, the, as we talked about, the kind of inciting incident pacing and then the immediate fallout like slightly less effective. I had the thought about the spell as well and whether there was some sort of sway that she was under still.

I guess the other way that it can work is when Elrond says to her at the beginning of the episode when they were reunited, I should have trusted you. It is a mistake I will not make again. And then at the end, Wendy's like,

what's going on here? Trust me. And Elron says, you are making that promise very difficult to keep. And Galadriel says, were it easy, it would not require trust. It's like a backslide into the, I am the one person who can clearly see the way forward here. That, like, might be narratively interesting, given the long road that we still have to travel. But, but I do agree.

I was like, wait, she's not going to tell them that that was Zara, who was helping to make these rings? That's not good That's not great We can't have that Finn Rons Fin Rons like Touch the darkness Again Galadryl

Uh Key question Do you think That Halbrand Sauron Like was intending to kill her Leaving her in the river like that And she would have died

Were it not for Elrond Or Was the Is the Glenduin Shallow enough there That he's just like, you know, shoved her in and was like, she'll be fine. That's a great question.

You'd think if he was, like, really trying to kill her, he would have, like, killed her, right? Yes. I think so. So I took it more as, like, a contrast and a way to cement that they are on a different path now, because, of course, when she fell into the Sundering Sea and he dove in after to pull her out and this is, like, then leaving her in the water and the water and the reflection and the light and the darkness and how can you tell the difference in the boat knowing which way it's up like all of that kind of being at play in that moment. So I did not

think he tried to kill her. I didn't either. I just wanted to take her time. Once again, I'm not trying to be a Sauron apologist. You love Sauron. Definitely you. Saur, do you watch the show you? No, I've never, I've never seen you. Okay. Charlie Vicker is giving these interviews reminds me a lot of when Penn Badgley talks about his character, Joe, on you, like a stalker and a creep and a murderer. But people watch that show and they're like, oh my God, he's so dreaming. He's like, in every interview, Pembauchy is like, no, I am playing a creepy killer weirdo. What's wrong with you? And I feel like Charlie Vickers is like, please don't romanticize Sauron. I'd really appreciate it. I'm playing the devil. It's fine.

Anyway, it's not going to stop any of us. Three rings for Elving Kings. That's what we get at the end of this season here. So it's a very key about the three rings for Elvin Kings. We'll talk a little bit about more about this in Ring 2, but like unlike the other rings that fall under the sway of the one ring and stuff like that, the three rings for Elvin Kings were never touched by Sauron. And so that's what we get here is we get Anatar, Lord of Gifts, shows up,

gives some ideas, but bucks off before the forging of these three rings. because it's very important that he has not touched them. It will diminish his ability to have control over them. So, and I really love this moment where Finrod's dagger provides the oar for the rings because I just love a thing hiding in plain sight the whole time. And one of those things is Alba and Asarra, but another is like, we've just been looking at that dagger all season long and it never once occurred to me. that that, I mean, maybe Reddit was all over this, but it never once occurred to me that

ore would be melted down and, and, you know, mixed with the meathrail and to form the rings. How did you feel about it? Yeah, I loved it. Like, for a couple different reasons, the true creation requires sacrifice idea that we hear in this episode is a callback to something we've heard from Kellibor before, of course. And for Galadriel, like that dagger is the symbol of her quest. It is the symbol of her devotion to carrying on this fight. And the Elrond plea to put up your sword from the premiere,

like this is on the one hand finally doing that, like finally letting go and watching that quite literally melt away. But what I think is so cool about the specific, use here is that it just then takes another form and it takes another shape and it's something that you still carry with you. And so like that glad you line in this episode, sometimes the perilous path is the only path. This is a character who believes that. And you feel that really keenly in a moment like that. There's the like the last glimpse is the, I'm not a Smith. So I don't know the proper terms. Are you not a Smith? The door to the four. I can't possibly be called door

closes. I think a door, a hatch. A hatch. Let's go. We love a hatch. We love to talk about hatch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't see Desmond inside. All right. I'm crossing you off my Sauron suspect list since you told me you don't know. You're not a Smith. Okay. Got it. I'm not a school. This idea of sacrifice of giving up an object reminds me of this moment where, you know,

Pippin drops the broken. the precious, beautiful leaf brooch off the elven cloak in order to provide a trail for Errigarn and Legolas and Gimli to follow. And in the book, Errigan says, and here also is your brooch pippin. I've kept it safe for it as a very precious thing, right? And Piven says, I know it was a wrench to let it go, but what else could I do? And Erdogan says nothing else. One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is infested.

you did rightly, right? So Galadriel giving up her precious dagger for this greater good, you know, standing in contrast to the inability to give up the ring from our guy Isildur who is currently in the rubble of Mordor, I guess. Hopefully he and Barrick are sharing apples by now. I hope so. Narya, Nenya and Vilia are the three elven rings, the ring of fire. the ring of Air Vilia and the ring of adamant Nenya and Nenya.

I don't know how much I can say I should say about these rings, but that's Galadriel's ring is Nenia. So really, when you look at these three rings that they forged here, the one that it's just looks like is made of Mithril, and canonically it's the one that's made of Mithril. This, again, I am not a smith. But all of Saka-Balai seem to imply that, like, all of these rings were made from all of those metals,

like that there's Mithril in all of them. So because of the me through a backstory and the circular something Calabran Borset about power going back and forth on a circle. Love it. Yeah. That's it. We already mentioned Halbrand smuggled himself across the border in David Targary's murder cloak. So we are good to go with this finale. Anything else you want to say about the forging of the rings?

Mentioned how cool the visual was that overhead shot that became the eye. I think the one will always corrupt, two will divide. But with three, there is balance. I loved that. Very interesting, very cool moment. A kind of classic season one rings of power conversation where you're like, man, these characters have made such progress. They've really shown a lot of growth. They've looked inward and thought about how to evolve.

And then the next line is, the powers we forged today must be for elves alone. Untouched by other hands. It's like, oh, no. So, you know, that's something that we've talked about a lot, too, is, like, so many of the parallels across these character sets when you try to protect your community, but then is that in conflict with fellowship and with sharing? Okay, well, being really careful maybe means that you can't be corrupted

the way that other sets of rings will be, but then have you shut yourself off from something that is sacred inside of this story? Your certainty guides you, and it gives you clarity. You mentioned the great, I have a greater good a few minutes ago. well, how then do you find the difference between your pursuit of the greater good and Saran's pursuit of the greater good? And all of the things we've talked about all season long about intention and the lust for power versus the desire to heal and nurture and tend obviously is very central there. So I'd like that this final climactic moment incorporated a lot of those key

ideas. All right. That is the, that is the ring one of rings of power. Plotsam and Jetsam. I actually don't have anything here other than like Funapel did a song about the ring verse. And honestly, the first time I heard it, I wasn't sure, but now it's stuck in my head,

especially because, you know, knowing it's coming if you rewatch this forging scene, you know, Barry's score is that song. And so like that score, the progression is just, it's kind of been Rains of Castamere haunting me,

honestly, today. Oh, high praise. Yeah. High praise. very high praise from me. All right, so ring two. We're going into ring two. This is forward-looking stuff.

We're no longer trying to guess who Sauron is. Though I guess before we go into ring two, just one last thing I'll say, because there might be some people listening who are really confused. Canonically Sauron is hot at this time. This is just a true. Fair form, Anatar. Hot guy. So those those who knew that, we decided not to put that in Ring 1 all season,

but like those of us knew that were suspicious of every attractive person we met on the show. So do you think he's just going to stay in this form? Yeah, I really do. Yeah. I mean, we might see him do like, you know, some of that fun slit eye bruise-face moves that he did on the raft. And I'm sure he'll take on other forms at certain points, method actor that he is. But I think they're going to keep Charlie Vickers in this role as much as they possibly can. I hope so.

It's just better TV storytelling if we bonded with an actor and we get to see him. And he's great. So, hopefully. All right, ring two. Conspiracy unmasked. I just have a bullpoint that says, well, because honestly we've spent a lot of time in here talking about his Halibran Sauron. And I just had a great day. Had a great day.

Very satisfying. Very satisfying. Charlie, as I already mentioned, Charlie Vickers said that we're going to get some sour on backstory, how he ended up on the raft or whatever in season two. He told THR that. Yeah. So the Blue Wizard thing, right? So here's what Tolkien says about the Blue. Again, the Blue Wizards are just something he was just like noodling on and noodling on and noodling on like George R. Martin working on Winds and Winter for like a long time.

It didn't come to any like clear, clear conclusions. But in a letter, he wrote, I really did not know anything clearly about the other two wizards, since they do not concern the history of the Northwest. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, far out of Newmanorian range, missionaries to enemy occupied lands, as it were. What success they had, I do not know. But I fear that they failed as Sauramon did, though doubtless in different ways. And I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and magic traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. So, like, this possibility that when the cultists show up, they say he is the other, the Istar he is. Okay.

So, like, I took that to mean he's not Sauron. He's the other, the other being the wizard. But what if they meant, like, he's the other wizard? And we already know the other was he's already in Rune. The, like, other blue wizard is already there or something like that. There's also a possibility that, like, we'll get a repeat of the Gandalf Sarmon dynamic. if the other Blue Wizard falls, you know, the way that Tolkien, Tolkien kind of noodle back and forth, like maybe they will fall, they fail to prevent Sauron, but like maybe that's because they fall,

or maybe they stay faithful and true. By the other way, their mission fails. So this possibility of giving us. And I just love this idea of, again, Rune, the East is a blank spot on the map. We don't know a lot about it. We know that the Easterlings come out of the East to support Sauron and stuff like that. We don't know much about it. I thought the cultists, as far as their, like, design went were very cool.

So it's really excited to think about this whole, you know, as JD and Patrick play in, like, sandboxes were more familiar with. And then now they're getting to move into a sandbox that there's no date on and so they can just, like, invent kind of whatever, really whatever they want to out of this blank spot on the map. And, you know, as the Southlanders were just, like, chilling in the mud. Like the the froon folk, the Easterlings, seem to have like a whole culture going on. They've got jewelry. They've got, you know, they've got all this sort of stuff. And so I think that that provides a real interesting opportunity for Norrie and not Gandalf or Gandalf. And hopefully, Poppy, I'm excited.

To be fair, to the Soutlanders, in addition to the mud, they also have a lot of cracked and broken floorboards. Oh, my God. Great point. There's beast beneath those boards. Okay. Halbrand, okay, Sauron, Sauron. I'll try to remember to call him Sauron. We got really good at calling him Hallibrand, right?

Halbron's a great name, so I'm sad, honestly, to have to retire it. Caladro's like, if he comes back, don't talk to him. But like... Yeah. Check off if he comes back? Does it seem like maybe Kellebram won't follow those instructions to the letter? What do you think? Mallory Rubin.

I would just suspect that if you're under Sauron spell, you're probably going to remain in communication in some way. Oh, like they're texting. I hope they're sliding into turns. He sends him a palat. I hope he sends him a palatier. And he's like, hey, bud. So we can talk smithing. But so just a reminder that we need seven rings for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone.

And nine for mortal men doomed to die. So there are 60 more rings that Kellebram bar has to. help Sauron make. What do you think the timing is going to be for seeing the forging of those rings and then eventually the one ring? I feel like Sauron has to like overthrow Adar in Mordor has got to be some season two action that is happening for him. And then I have to think that like maybe it, I mean, given how quickly this all happened,

one episode three, 11 rings. And like, Duren feels like the likeliest next target for, seven rings for Dwarven kings, right? So I can see that happening by the end of season two. We're doing five seasons, right? So season two or season three? These Easterlings were about to meet. I mean, I'm worried about Theo,

and I'm worried about Halbrain noticing Theo, honestly. But like, the nine rings for mortal men doomed to die. Like, we could get a lot of, we've talked about how they're Numenorian ring race. Nine of those, three of those ring race are Numenorian, right? So we're like, Earian, Kemen, Valendiel, we're worried about you. But the Easterlings might provide a good, like, candidate crop and Theo, you know. Anyway, I don't know that I'd answer your question.

Do you have a timeline? I have no idea. None. I mean, I think we both felt we'd get the elven rings in this finale, and we did. Beyond that, I'm kind of, I'm fascinated to see, I guess, because. I wouldn't be shocked if they were all in the story pretty quickly from here, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Because you need the downfall of Numenor.

Yeah. And then you need the last alliance of elves of men, which feels like a whole final season. So, yeah, we might get all 16 in the next season. Kelle Brimbor, you easily seduced guy. When Sauron says, this is a curious oar. Saron's obsessed with Mithril. Tolkien wrote a note, Mithril is now nearly all lost.

Orks plunder it and pay tribute to Sauron who is collecting it. We don't know why for some secret purpose of his weapons, not for beauty. And then in a later draft, Tolkien wrote slightly more extensively, they give it in tribute to Sauron who has long been gathering and hoarding all that he can find. It's not known why, not for

beauty, for some secret purpose, and the making of weapons of war. So I feel like we're going to get some Charlie Vickers, Owen Arthur, who plays during like, you know, conversations, right? He's going straight to the minds. Please. Please.

That will be amazing. I love this email we got from listener called Diana about this idea that, like, Adar is actually right about something in some ways because she wrote this really great point. She said, I recently read Fellowship and was struck by a scene of the prancing pony, where folks are discussing how more and more people are coming up from the South looking to settle. One man says, if room isn't found for them, they'll find it for themselves. They have a right to live, same as other folks. The sentiment expressed there that the various peoples of Middle Earth need to find ways to coexist and support one another despite their differences

is a common Tolkien theme, but he put the words in the mouth of a guy described as squintide and ill-favored, who is displeasing to all the nice brie folk. I thought a lot about why Tolkien would have that message carried by a character we are supposed to dislike or distrust. their squinty ill-favored men in the inn that night include the awful Bill Fernie. And I don't necessarily have a good answer except that it's extra interesting and challenging to have a villain speak a major truth. But I wonder if any of the thinking that gave us Adar advocating for the rights of his orcs to have a homeland where they can live openly and comfortably was inspired by the original

scene at The Pony. I'm really interested to see where the rings of power crew takes that idea forward. Love this email. Just one quick correction here for our listener, Diana. it is uh... Ourok. Right? Oh, boy.

Still not over not getting to hear him say Mordor. Would have taken longer than Deseris' walk down the throne room. I would have loved every second of it. All right. And the question of whether or not we're going to get poppy, like are we going to get the other,

an adventure of the other Harfoots in season two while Nori is off? Or are we, like, not going to see them until they're reunited with Nori? We got to hear from John about a sequence in the two towers, the tree beard chapter. Where your tree beard, when meeting Mary and Pippen for the first time, says, But if I had not seen you before I heard your voices, I like them. Nice little voices. They remind me of something I cannot remember.

If I had seen you before, I should have trod on you. you taking you for little oaks. First of all, tree beard, it's oonk. Secondly, John is wondering if like maybe this means we'll get hard-footed. Like if tree-beard's like, huh, you remind me of something. If we will get, and we got the little teas, two double et teas in this season, right, with like seeing them as the meteor falls and then Sadok mentioning.

So are we going to get some like hardfoot ent? adventures. That would be great. I love an end. In season two. I do. Do you, are you, do you want to, a musical number between Poppy and Treebeard, like a duet between those two?

I'm always, I'm always here for a new musical experience. I would love another Poppy song. I've been quite moved by this wandering day and deeply disturbed by the snail song, so I can't wait to see what emotional experience awaits us next. Okay, last but certainly not least, maybe top of, might be top of your mind as well. How do you feel about not checking back in with the Sealedor in this finale here? What's the point of leaving him to rot in Mordor at this point?

Before door, in Mordor. I was so excited when I got to text you after last week's pod about finding some s'mores ice cream at McConnell's here in LA. Delicious, by the way. Really good. Fluffy light. It was not called Smoordoer. But now I'm going to send some rebranding thoughts, you know, via the DoorDash feedback

system. I don't totally understand this. Other than my assumption that the next time we're with Isielder, in addition to being with Barrick, we will also be with Bronway. Around there, Theo, and all of the Southlanders and that giving us the glimpse of a still alive and well, Seildore and the finale would necessitate, it would either have had to be

just like a very quick solitary moment or necessitating, like bringing in a whole other character set that there just wasn't room for. So I actually thought that this was one where maybe like, and we've talked about this before, they're not necessarily trying to hide things, right? It's like maybe they're just actually, there's a comfort here that a good portion,

certainly not all of the viewership, knows that this guy is alive and has a huge role to play in the story to come, and we can take that comfort with us into the long off season before season two. What about you, though? Did you think we would see him in the finale? I'll paint a picture what I thought I saw,

and I'll pitch it for the season two episode one, scene two. Because season two of episode one, scene one is Poppy running through the grass after Norrie. Right. That's the first order of business. Yeah. Right. Second on the agenda. Rubble, ash, a hand poking out of the rubble and a sweet horse's like muzzle bending down to a, you know, have a have a little like lick or poke at the hand.

And then the hand twitches, it still doors a life. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to recant my prior statement. We actually should have gotten that. We should have gotten the Brigo Aragorn in this episode because it won't, the timeline that has now moved forward. Like they've sailed back.

They're back in Numerur. Time is fast. Yeah. So the question is like, so he's going to, it seems like he's going to stay. I don't know if he's going to go back to Numer. He may never, you know. Yeah. I assume he'll end up in this, in this old Numerorian colony with the Southlanders.

But so protogondor, like, is he building, is he, is he there so that he can build Gondor? his brother should be there, but that's okay. So they're in a Bill Gondor. Or do they want him to be stuck in before No Mordor for a while? And maybe they feel like that helps explain how he's more easily corrupted. You've already mentioned the moment earlier in the season where we hear him like sort of respond to the whisper of voices, right? So like the susceptibility of his Sildor.

So is there something about being in Mordor or possibly interacting with him? Sauron interacting with Adar, something like that, that puts him in a position where he is more, he is frailer, more susceptible. I don't know. Yeah, some sort of discovery via, like the orcs discovering him. I don't want anything to happen to Barrett, though. So that makes me nervous and unhappy to think about. Like if Barrick found him and they were riding and then they got captured, but I want

Barrack to be okay, so I don't even want to think about that possibility. The one thing I was going to say about him not going to, I like the idea of him being in Mordor and that having some bearing on the outcome to come. Could he just go right to the colony and the Gondor plot kicks off? Maybe. I feel like we have to close the loop, though, on him longing to go to the West in Numerator. And his brother. Yeah, he's got to go back there. I have a lot of questions.

Yeah. I mean, Mariel said she's going to. TV left. Yeah, Muriel says she's coming back. So, and I believe her. So, oh, and they also said they were leaving some reserves. Yes. Right.

So there are Numenorian reserves. To look specifically to look for their, their ill or injured or dead or missing. I think what's the word they is. Someone's going to look. So yeah, maybe they'll find him and he'll just end up back in Numeror. But like being under a burp building for the whole off season, tough stint for a Sildor. Maxon Baldry, too pretty to.

too pretty to burn. Sorry, sorry that that's happening to you. So let's go now to our conversation with J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay about Rings of Power. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful. thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser, Kelly Riley.

Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. What's Possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tremfair radio.com.

This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. I wanted to start by asking you, there have been a couple themes that we just keep coming back to as we discuss Tolkien as a whole in your show, specifically gardens and healers and sub-creators and all that sort of stuff.

I was wondering if there was one particular Tolkien theme, if you had to pick one, that sort of resonates the most with you that you are always most excited to dig into or make sure as reflected back in the work. Well, I think, you know, that's all a big part of it. You know, there's constantly trees in the show and trees of history and meaning.

and, you know, there's always so, you know, friendship and bravery and, you know, I think, I think at the end of the day, you know, it does come down to this idea of varieties of goodness, you know, that the thing that Tolkien does that nobody else does is it's about people trying to do good and people who are good who are tempted to evil. and the million variations and shades of that, you know, we just feel like that's the gift that keeps on giving. And that, you know, when we sit back and we watch it now, having, you know, it's been done for six months or so now, the show.

And so, you know, for, I mean, even longer, really, the visual effects was six months ago. But, you know, when we watch it sort of as viewers now, it's like, you know, what we just keep seeing is people trying to do good. You know, even the villains in season one in their minds are, doing good and a good that's sort of justifiable, you know, to themselves and that you can relate to and understand. And I think, you know, in the writers' room very early on, we talked about the idea of variations of goodness being, being the subject of the show and trying to honor that.

You know, you know, we're never going to, you know, out Machiavellian shows that have mastered Machiavellian mess, you know. And the general feeling of peak bleakish, you know, and the general feeling of peak bleak that I think we talked about maybe with you before, which is like the prestige drama has gotten pretty grim. And that's not a good or bad. That just is, you know. And I think we felt like, you know, could we try to make a show that would have real stakes and intensity at times, but that at the end of the day had some of the optimism and hope and, you know, positivity that you feel when you read Tolkien. And I think, I think, you know, if there's one we keep going back to, it's something there.

Well, yeah, and I'll sort of, you know, give us a sort of analog to that also, in that I think one that jumps out at me is just light and darkness. You know, as you speak, a good and evil light and darkness, you know, it's something that you can never get tired of exploring in Tolkien. I mean, especially on film. I mean, film is light dancing across celluloid.

And, you know, so they're very, existence of light pictures, you know, being what allows us to view something. But, you know, it's also such a rich metaphorical experience beyond our physical experience of light and dark in the world of the idea of light and darkness inside of us. And, you know, it always fascates me that, you know, in Tolkien, really, death is not the biggest tragedy. You know, when Theodin dies, he dies a good death. You know, I go now to the host of my father's in whose mighty company, I shall not now be ashamed. And, you know, that's a good death, you know, but like when Boromir goes evil, you know, that's a tragedy.

You know, so like, it's real tragedy in Tolkien is when people go towards darkness, you know. And so that battle of a struggle between light and darkness, you know, both in a visual sense and in a metaphorical and story sense, I think is endlessly rich to explore in Tolkien's works and worlds. So, I mean, on that theme of goodness and light, I'm curious. you know, when we have a character like the stranger, repeating back what Norrie says, and I am good is what he says in a sort of like big climactic battle moment. Like, what is, I mean, besides the obvious, what is putting a line like that in such a key moment mean to you? I think we know magic is really important and powerful in Tolkien, and we know wizards, you know, can wield a kind of magic in Tolkien.

And we know wizards can go bad. Gandalf is tempted. You know, don't tempt me, Frodo. You know, Saraman, you know, essentially wants to be a rival for Sauron. Or, you know, in the films he's sort of like partnered with Sauron. But like either way, it's like, you know, wizards can go evil. I think there's even some like, you know, arcana, you know, on the fringes that Tolkien wrote that like maybe one of the blue wizards in the East went evil. And the idea that being a powerful being puts you in this position where your soul is.

in the balance and you have to constantly choose the good. Felt like a potentially rich terrain for a storyline for a character who you now know ends up being a wizard. I mean, we're not exactly hiding that. He feels like that all along. But really for us, it's what is that going to mean for him? What is that going to mean for her? Is he a good wizard or a bad wizard?

Sauron is essentially a myr as well. So he is his own version of a wizard. And, you know, so that's a moment where, you know, a character. who has shown that he has darkness in him is choosing the good. That doesn't mean that journey ends. You know, you have to choose the good again. And this was literally something we had on our whiteboard and our writer's room from like very early on. Before we really started writing story, we started by, you know,

listing sort of rules of how the world works, you know, in Middle Earth. And one of the principles we sort of put down on the whiteboard was that good is a choice. And, you know, so that sat on our whiteboard, you know, throughout the break camp season one, good is a choice. And that's a place where you did the stranger really articulates that. Like, he chooses, I am good. It's also a not especially subtle. It's a little inspired by the end of the Iron Giant, which is sublime. Oh, my God, I love that.

He's not a weapon. I love that. Okay. So speaking of things that are sort of, you know, you're not exactly hiding that in plain sight. I loved your answer to THR about this Sauron mystery and how it's sort of reflective of the corrupt, like all of us, all of us at home watching, trying to guess what's going on is similar to sort of the distress that's sewn between the fellowship as they get closer to mortar. I loved brilliant, brilliant answer. But I'm just curious about, did you feel like

the story you're watching here was more of a roadmap towards a road map towards a reveal that should feel inevitable or more of a puzzle? Like, what was your approach towards that? So, so we're really not all about, um, playing games with the audience. And I know there were, you know, definitely some folks who were like, you know, felt like, okay, when are we going to get an answer to these questions? But it's like, it's right there all along. Like, we're not playing a game. Like, do you know what I mean? Like a lot of people like episode two are like, hey, wait a minute. It's like, that's by design. Like, you know, it's right there. We're much more interested in the character dynamic between, you know, in this case, you know,

a character who turns out to be Sauron and, and, uh, are heroin. That's the story. What his name is is not important. What's important is moment to moment. What is he struggling with? What is she struggling with? What is the friendship that they're developing and, and what's that about? And how is that changing each of them? Um, you know, and I would sort of in some way say the same for the stranger, you know, he doesn't have a name by the end of the season. But like, to us, the name is like, not important yet. That's not what stories about. The stories about what kind of, what kind of a person does you want to be? And, you know, you know, I think we feel like we're playing straight with that. Like, so, so it's not really a puzzle. I mean, you know, certainly like,

you know, there's places we're deliberately tipping the show's hand a little and hope, and hoping that will make people lean in even more. But to get them to that emotional story, which is what we're actually, that's actually important to us. And I think, you know, our hope and aspiration would be now getting to the end the way some folks have. You know, maybe they go back and look at the journey

they've been on again and realize, like, it hasn't been a puzzle. It hasn't been a mystery. It's actually been about a story of two characters. It's a character journey. And I think that's really more of what we're about, if that makes sense. I don't know if that answers your question.

It does. It does. J.D., do you have anything you want to say about that in particular? No, I mean, I was going to speak a little bit about, you know, just where the answer came from with THR, you know, like all good things. It comes back to the books and, you know, specifically comes from Gandalf. You know, there's this moment where he says that I think of a lot where he says, work of the enemy, such deeds he loves, friend or with friend, loyalty divided in confusion

of hearts. You know, this idea that, you know, the enemy's real goal, like, you know, all he has to do is we isn't even to beat us. It's just to get us to turn against ourselves, against each other and to make the friendship, make the fellowship break it slowly to each other. And, you know, I can't help but think of that in, in terms of, you know, the reason we talked about it,

partially in terms of, you know, what happens when we're watching the show is also because we're looking at, you know, the conversation that happens, you know, around the show, but also in our world today, you know, there are so many things that, you know, should bring us together and unite us, you know, culturally where we all love something. But, you know, then, you know, we spend as much time, you know, tearing down each other's opinions about things, you know, just watching the fans fight with each other sometimes, like,

Bubsby out, whether or not they like the show, you know, I can't help but think of, you know, that, that quote from Gandalf that, you know, that Sarah would be pleased to no end to see us, you know, tearing each other apart, you know? I'm, what I've always loved about both of you is your ability to cite Tolkien chapter and verse, like, just drop it into a conversation. incredible stuff. And we've had such fun sort of digging through

and trying to find the little nods and references that you've put into the dialogue. I'm wondering if there's a reference you put in that you were most excited that people picked up on

or if there's and or if there's one that no one picked up on that you want to reveal now and say, I can't believe no one got this, man. Well, here's what I would say. You know, I mean, so obviously

it's our job, you know, set aside being fans and lovers of this literature, it's our job to be, to know it chapter and verse, you know what I mean, and to know where we're bending the rules and where we're breaking the rules, like, you know, ultimately, you know, we have to go with what feels like bending to us. Someone else might have a different, you know, but, but, but, but, I mean, there's references to quite a bit of other things in the show that people aren't picking up on. You know, there's a lot of, you know, references to films we love and shows. we love and, you know, you know, like one that, you know, to us was like the one of the initial

inspirations of that whole storyline was the raft of Medusa, which is this great painting by Jericho. He's like a French neorealist painter, romantic painter, I think. And, you know, the entire story of Galadriel encountering a raft of refugees and castaways came because that was a painting we loved. It's 14 feet by 10 feet and it's in the loo. You know what I mean? There's, there's, but the show is packed with everything that we are crazy about and have been passionate about all our lives. And, you know, you can almost just look at, like, movie references and, like, you know,

write a huge piece about it. And that's, that's a lens. I haven't seen anyone look at it through, you know. There's a shot at the end of that same episode, Galadriel and Hal, Galen Howl, are on a smaller raft. They've survived the storm, and now they're, like, half-day-down. bed and they're found by a ship that will turn out to be, you know, Ellen Deal's ship. And there's a shot behind him where he's, the shadow of him or the sailor is over them. And he has a cape around him.

And it's a direct rip-off from Lawrence of Arabia. Because the whole story of the journey over the sea was like, can we do a survival adventure? But instead of the desert where you've seen it before, let's do it on the ocean. What would it be like if she has to swim across the entire ocean? because she's made this crazy leap of faith, and it's now stuck with her choice. What's she going to do? I love that.

So that's just a couple on the top of my head that no one seems to have. And then speaking of Numerar in terms of things people don't necessarily put on, but when we were talking about the design of the court of Numenor, we talked about Raphael's painting the School of Athens, you know, this place where it was just sort of bustling

and alive with ideas and, you know, sort of a vibrant populace that was all sort of part of Numeron. We wanted that to be the sort of way you first got to meet meet the kingdom. This is stuff that I love, and I can't wait to go back and rewatch and rewatch and try to pick up all the things that you put in there. It's just like, it's really a rich text and really fun for me. I mean, that was the goal. You know, we really, and it's not just us. It's also, you know, Biona who directed the first couple episodes, Charlotte Branson, who directed a couple in Wayne. Like, we're all constantly talking about how do we elevate

and layer every piece of this. So it's not just, you know what I mean? There's so much content. And we really all worked very hard to fill the show with the light and have it be something that, you know, hopefully if you like it, maybe you revisit it in a couple of years and like, actually, you like it even more than you did last time because now you're coming to it with an understanding of where the destination is. And, you know, each of those character journeys, every line, everyone says, is there for a reason and connects to something else. And there's references and cross-references to everything within the show.

And, you know, if people find it to be a rich text, like, that would be, you know, sort of the highest aspiration and goal for us. Let's talk about one of the clearest references that's in the finale, which is to a chapter we keep coming back to when we talk about this, which is the mirror of Galadriel, right? So we get Halbrun, Halangal in the Mine Palace on the raft and the stormy sea turns into flat, you know, mirror. We get direct line quotes from Galadriel's famous. this, you know, you will set up a queen speech. Can you talk about that moment, which is so iconic for film watchers because of Kate Blanche's performance, but also there's a lot of stuff that's in that chapter that doesn't make it into the Jackson film that is also really rich text about Sauron and Galadriel's connection.

Can you talk about the meaning of that chapter for this story? I would say it's the inspiration for the entire show. There's certainly a couple things there. you know, one, How's first line of Galadriel, you know, he says the tides of fate are flowing, you know, yours may be heading out or in, you know, which Galadriel says when the ring comes into her domain, she says the tides of fate are flowing. And, you know, so we thought it would invest it with new meaning if people could say like, oh my gosh, you know, that's something that he said to her when they first met and now the ring is coming to her. She's saying it, she's repeating it

all these thousands of years later. So it's a fun sort of like, you know, giving something a new meaning from the text. But then also there's a close reading that, you know, we did, I think, Patrick, I think, was one who brought it in for our morning quote one morning because we, you know, tried to, you know, we would start every morning with a talking quote where, you know, whether it was one of us or what of our writer's assistance or just one of our writers, would just come in and say, here's something I was reading that is inspiring me in, and it would just become our kickoff for the day. And so Patrick came in one morning with this quote from Miragal, which is I, let's see, perceive the dark lord and know his mind,

or at least all of his mind that concerns the elves, and ever does he grope after me and seek to know my mind, but still the door is shut. And, you know, we just thought that was just loaded with all kinds of implications. You know, the language, you could, you know, parse the verbs and, you know,

look at how specific they are. But, you know, the idea that still the door is shut. He gropes. He gropes ever. Yeah. And, you know, but still the door is shut. You know, like, okay, so it's, that really spoke to us of like, okay, this has been an ongoing thing. And it spoke to us of layers of history there and that she knows him.

It's not she just knows about him or like, you understand, like, you know, what he's about, but like, she knows him. So we said there's a relationship here. And then it became, okay, well, how do you then do a relationship? You know, if you were just to do, you know, high glad you and sarah, and like, there's no relationship. because obviously she would know who he was and just, you know, so we said like, okay, we know he's And by the way, if you were to do high gladriol, I'm Anatar, well, now the whole audience knows, so they're ahead of your heroin for however many episodes. Do you know what I mean? That's not really an option. But go ahead.

Yeah, you know, so that just became part of the way we started saying like, okay, well, then how do you have the meat in a way that is, you know, hopefully surprising and, you know, play fair with the audience. Some people will know right away, you know, or we'll have a suspicion right away. But some people, you know, might suspect him amongst, you know, a whole group of people. And some people have no idea. We'll be totally surprised. And we wanted to make it satisfying viewing for all three of those groups. So, so, yeah, we cast Charlie Vickers. And, you know, we wanted to make it so that everything that he says to her could be true both for Howebrand and Saran. You know, he didn't just present a total false persona. So you think, okay, well, I spent an entire season

getting a know someone who's not actually character. You know, when you go back and watch her a second time, Like most of the things he says, you know, also resonate on a Sauron level. You've gotten to know Sauron. You know what he's good at. You know what his weaknesses are. You know what makes him angry. You know, you know what he values. You know his tricks.

You know his playbook in a way. But to go back to, you know, that moment of, you know, you would have a queen that's in the books and in the films. And I mean, I think that was the seed. The whole thing came from. We were like, what would she have been like 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago? what an incredible character to know herself so well to say, I've always wanted this ring, but I know how dangerous I am.

And I know the darkness in me and it would come out. Well, how does she know that? Where does she learn that? Where did she explore that? And then, like, that question just was so compelling to us. It compelled us to go all the way back. And every single thing, I think, sprouted from that seed. And a couple others, you know, the idea of a halfling and a being falling from the sky

was one of the early, early, early ideas. But, like, that really was what made us, our imaginations get set aflame with a story that could be told in this era in this time. I'm really curious about something you said. Another thing you said in the THR interview about thinking about season two or all season going forward and lessons learned from season one. And something you, JD said was that one of the big things we learn was even when it's a small scene, it always has to tie in to the larger stakes and that there are things that, did or didn't work in season one according to that sort of maybe new guiding principle that you set up for yourself. I love a small moment. I love a small moment between characters that maybe doesn't feel big and grand and consequential, but is emotionally consequential.

So I'm curious, if you look back at season one, what is the sort of platonic ideal of a moment that feels small but still ties back to those larger stakes? Like, what is the right balance coming out of season one? I would say, I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. Oh, go ahead, Janie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you referenced one earlier on, you know, the sort of, you referenced the B side of which the A side is, Norian the strangers sit and talking about walnuts and, you know, migrations and, you know,

where they go from place to place. And, you know, that turns into a conversation that is about the sort of nature of the stranger's soul. And, you know, perils and good. And so it's a delightful tiny little character scene, but also ties into, well, what is the stranger? And the stranger's choice about what he is is going to have major implications for the into middle earth. So that's one that perfectly walks the line between those two of being small and intimate, but also tying into something that feels much larger. And what I was going to say quickly is not to put words in your mouth, but I think we are totally with you. Some of our favorite, favorite stuff is very small and intimate.

And that's not us in any way, like, being like, next time it's all going to be effing battles and fights and bubble. Like, no, no, no. Right. But it's more like, you know, I think there were things in the writing season. The things we're talking about are not in the show, right? Like, but there was like, just to name one thing. Like, you know, there was more around Isildur and does you want to become a sailor or not?

And it like, it just like, when you hold that up against, you know, life and death in the Southlands, you're like. okay, do I care if this kid becomes, joins the Navy? It feels small. And that's a journey that could be an entire season of television on many shows. But when it's Lord of the Rings, it's always got to come back to good and evil, light and darkness, fate of middle earth, fate of your people. You know, it weirdly, it's very hard to invest someone in, you know, does this kid want to, want to become a sailor or not? It just felt small.

And there were other things like that that we tried in the writing that then when you put it in the world of Lord the Rings and you put all those stories against each other, you go, okay, hold on. It somehow has to be of existential Lord of the Ringsy, middle earth stakes. And that's really more, I think, what you meant, but also knowing that, right, that like a tiny moment, like the two of them and the Walnuts, becoming a conversation about good and evil is one of our favorite scenes. We can now write to that. We can write to what we feel are the show's strengths. You know, we're never going to please everybody, but I think we're very grateful that a lot of people who like the show seem to see the same strengths and weaknesses in it that we do. And if you like it, round one, you're going to like

even more round two, we think. And hopefully if round one, it didn't quite get there, like, give us another shot round two. And hopefully, hopefully it'll be right down the middle for you. We love that. We got this really brilliant email for one of our listeners about the map of Middle Earth. They wrote in about sort of the map, one of the maps that is in the show. And how it's like a Tolkien purist, he was looking at the map of the Southlands, and he was like, what is all this stuff on here that's not on Tolkien's map? I don't know how I feel about it. And that in the battle, the Epsix battle, you know, a volcano erupts and, you know, a lake gets drained

and towns are wiped out. And basically the map is set to the way that it looks, you know, in Tolkien's world, like erasing your own footprint to put the world the way that Tolkien readers are more familiar with it. And I was wondering if you could think about that. Is that sort of like a larger guiding principle about like where the borders are, where we bend, where we break in terms of how you can tell the story in the margin of what exists from Tolkien? Yes, absolutely. I think there will be quite a few things that, you know, whether it's characters or realms or

you know, relationships that, you know, people, you know, if we were to start off exactly with everything the way it is in the third age, then the story would be completely flat. There we know, no development, no growth. You know, so, you know, there are certain things that are sort of sketched or hinted at in the second age, you know, that will sort of take. But then there are other things that are just kind of a, you know, a little bit of a jump ball where you can, you can say, okay, like, what might this have been in the second age and how, you know, will it develop in a way that is potentially surprising and satisfying? And you know, you always try to do it in as Tolkienian way as possible.

You don't just like, you know, go out of the resurrection, do something that feels like came out of a totally different world. But, you know, some of the delight is what are the unexpected paths that lead us to the things that we know and love and are familiar? You know, Kelleborn. You know what I mean? Like it's like, you know, she's supposed to have a husband and a kid. It's like, well, of course. You know what I mean? Like she's supposed to be the lady in the wood.

It's like, yeah, that's the. Yes. Like, it has been, you know, one of the more discouraging aspects was, is some portion of the audience, I think, that, you know, we felt the show was for, didn't, didn't want to, you know, go on that journey. They, they wanted it to already be what they think it's supposed to be. And that, you know, surprised us when we would hear people who would say that. We're like, oh, really? Like, like, you know, because for us as viewers, when you're doing a sequel or a prequel, we're just sick of seeing a repetition or a reference or something you already know. It's like our thing is like, can it be a good story even if it didn't tie into the other story? And then at the end, when it does, hopefully it's really delightful and satisfying. That was always sort of the mission statement, you know?

When you do something big in that regard, when you do something big like the mythereal origin story, which I think is one of those moments that, you know, divides audience. Some people are like, this is interesting. And some people are like, I am unfamiliar with this. You know, so is making a choice like that exciting for you? Like, we get to create some Middle Earth mythology, or is it nerve-wracking for you as you do it? I think the answer is both.

You know, with that one in particular, you know, someone that came from story challenges, we used it okay. You know, eventually the rings are going to be made, you know, and have, you know, this, like, power to them. And like, something that you could just say comes from a sort of mystical, you know, sort of ethereal magic from the unseen world, but we said, like, is there a way we can actually, like, make it concrete in a story? And, you know, so we said, okay, well, if the elves are

fading and if the light of Valanor is what they need, you know, they have to go back to Valenor, me in the light of Alonor, or, you know, like, have that lights over, like, okay, what would be a way that you would sort of bridge those two? And how would rings be sort of involved in that? And why would rings sort of hit pause on elven fading as they sort of seem to in the lore? And so at least they said, like, okay, how do you connect to these, these couple things? he said, okay, well, you know, starts with the light of Valnor and the trees. You know, the light of the trees goes to the Silmerals. And we said, like, what if, like, you know, there's a missing link between Silmerals and rings?

And we said, okay, well, like, you know, let's do it in a way where we're sort of like, you know, not like just completely, you know, so you say like, okay, it's an apocryple story. Maybe you believe it. Maybe you don't. You know, to have a sort of like, you know, an out for people who want to say, no, no, no, that's not canon. But like for people who want to say like, oh, cool, you know, could the third similar, there's one serial, got lost in the ocean? one that, you know, that was, it's up in the sky with the head end, and then, like, one that was buried in the earth.

Could the one that have been buried in the earth could a sort of, like, possible, you know, fate of it have been that it was buried in the earth, you know, through this kind of a story, like, you know, could it be a sort of alt, you know, version of that that Silver O'S history. Like, and, you know, for us, we thought that was, it was, you know, potentially interesting. But we're also, you know, the other thing, too, is, you know, we're trying to make a very esoteric and hard to relate to idea for a, general audience, which is elves fading. Yeah. And they need rings to stop the fading into something that functions in a way that if you don't know anything about Lord of the Rings, you're like, okay, they want the magic thing, but they don't want to give it.

Okay, all right. Do you know what I mean? Like we're trying to walk this line where, you know, it's not just vague existential elf drama. It's like a ticking clock. You know what I mean? Yeah. How do you do that in a way that honors the spirit of Tolkien and his magic?

and while still giving you it out. And I mean, it's a tricky balance. And that's certainly one of the bigger risks we felt helped at the end of the day, but it's tough. The last question I want to ask you, this has been sort of some of our favorite moments in going through the journey of this season is thinking about our favorite moments from Tolkien, whether it's the books or the films or a Led Zeppelin song or whatever the case may be.

And I was going to ask you this, but I wanted to take one option off the table. because I know you already told me way back when we talked at the beginning of this, how you were so glad to be working together on this, how you would cite that I'm glad you're with me, here with me, Sam, and of all things sort of that is your fellowship. The two of you as you create this. So I'm taking that option off the table. You can't say that. But is there another Tolkienian moment that just, you know, is at the center of your heart? Well, my favorite moment, and we used it in episode six, Sam and Frodo are at Kira Thungle, and, you know, Frodo is sleeping, and Sam sees a star. You know, he's like in this low moment and he sees through the clouds for a moment, one star. There's light and high beauty forever. The shadow is a brief and passing thing. You know, that moment is sublime, I feel. It's my favorite moment in the books. And, you know, it hasn't been done on film. And so we felt it was fair game. Let's get a little more Tolkien in there and used it as a, as, as, as a pre-battle thing in the sixth episode. But I love that moment. I think it sort of has all the best of Tolkien in it, you know? And it's a Sam moment. So come on.

Yeah, exactly. How about you, J.D? I think no matter who you are on planet Earth, everyone at some time feels like they're carrying the ring. You know, that's why it's so universal. You know, I don't care what, you know, background you come from, what country you come from. Like, you know, being human is hard.

And sometimes we feel that we're taking. carrying burdens that are just beyond our strengths. And, you know, we sort of like, you know, look at our lot or look at whatever that burden is. We say, like, I wish this hadn't happened. I wish this hadn't come in my time. And so I find Gandalf's advice just ever, ever green to Frodo. But he says, so to all of them to see such times.

But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that's given to us. Like that, you know, I feel like that is just, you know, it is a well that never runs dry. you can say, okay, like, this is my burden. This is what I'm carrying today. You know, what am I going to do with it? Well, as you carry the ring into season two, which hopefully doesn't always feel like a burden,

but often enjoy, thank you again for chatting with me for the season of television. I really appreciate it. Really, thank you. I think it sounds like J.D. was already getting into it when I got on, but really, like, you know, we are incapable of not paying attention

to the response to the show, at least so far. And you and your cohort have been some of our favorite audience members. Really, you guys are really seeing a version of the show that is very close to the version that we hope people would see. And that really, really means a lot. But you were on to Hal pretty early, I think, right? Like, immediately. We did float it as an, yeah.

Anthony Bresden and I did float. Like, oh, I will just say this. Your extremely solid poker faces when we asked you that back in January is the only only reason I ever doubted it, honestly. Because I was like, I asked them, and I over a Zoom call, and I saw their faces, and you guys just neutral. What was it like for you in that moment

when we said that? I know Bres wants to ask you that, too. I'm glad it felt that way. In real life, I don't play poker because I have a terrible poker face. I'm a horrible liar. Like, if you ask me, like, you know, it's just like, yes. You know, there's this, like, there's this goofy smile, and I can't help us start to laugh,

but I'm, like, really like, you know, try to hold something. but like in that one for whatever reason, we were just able to, you know, respond, you know, very neutrally. But I don't know, Patrick. No, no. It was actually interesting because that was our first real interview about the show.

Thank you for doing that and for writing so lovely article. And it's been a long journey and years since then. Yeah. But no, but it was like, okay, they're totally on to him, which is great because I think we felt like a large portion of the audience would be on to him from maybe the minute one. You know what I mean? And the show is designed to reward that.

If you think he might be the guy, that's a version of the show that is totally legit. It's not... It's really fun. Kaiser Sose, where it's like, if you know who it is, there is nothing to watch. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a whole, you know,

and I hope you felt that way, you know. But it was like, okay, people seem to be picking up on what we want to pick up on, you know, the first time you see him, his first shot in introduction is, with one eye deliberately. You know, like, it's all there. It's really fun.

When he, like, stops outside the smithy, we were just like, you know, and as, we knew that was one. Yeah. Oh, my God, we're really pushing it here. You know, like...

Or, like, all the times he's wreathed in fire and just, like, all... It's just, like, it's honestly fun. It's genuinely fun, so... Totally. But then in the end, did you feel... Did you feel like the plane came in for a landing satisfactorily?

I love the Mind Palace stuff, because, like, I was like, oh, no, I want them to keep talking. But Galadriol, does not want to talk. And then you went into the Mind Palace. I was like, oh, yes, we get to keep talking about this. This is great.

He's very hideous. He's very dangerous. Okay. Anything else we want to say about rings of power? Power. Power. Season one. I don't think so, Joe.

I had an absolute blast. You know, I would channel my inner gandolph and say, I will not say, do not weep for not all tears are an evil. It was such a joy. It was such a thrill to be in Middle Earth with you. I really, really, really cannot wait for season two. I'm already excited for the first posters they put out. The first kernels of information that we get about season two are teaser trailer breakdowns.

Like there's so much to look forward to ahead. I really cannot wait to keep having this adventure with you. And I think that the only way that I can end it is to say we do not say goodbye. We say Namare. It means more than simply farewell. it means go towards goodness. And I cannot wait to go towards goodness with you again. If I turn around, Mallory, I turn around now, I'll never leave.

I don't get a chance. I mean, you were sort of a little alarmed that Dina Weiman, Wayman does not sound like Ian McKellen. So we don't know whether or not he's playing golf. I just, I really like his fully verbal energy. I think is very soothing presence and I'm really excited to see more from him. Anyway, that's not the point.

The point is, the world's not that wide, Mallory. It's just we're so bleeding and small. That has been rings of power. Thanks, as always, heroically on this Friday afternoon to Carlos Sieraboga, our producer. Thank you, Carlos. Incredible stuff from Carlos.

Thank you, as always, to Roger Nricapal for his additional production work and to Jomey a dinner on the social. We'll be back on Sunday. or Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan. Marier. Bye. What's the difference between butter

and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk,

melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Families.