The Ringer-Verse - The Worst (and Best) Decisions in the History of Fandom | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

It's time to make a decision! The Midnight Boys are here to break down what they think to be some of the best and worst decisions in the history of fandom (00:00). From story choices to big financial gambles, the boys take a look at some of the biggest instrumental changes and decisions to fandom and the stories they love. Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Steve Ahlman, and Jomi Adeniran Social: Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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Show me the explainer to dinner on. You've got questions. He's got answers. Steve, the architect, Alman, the tinker of things. Old Man, Van, he of the receding hairline. So to be resurgent.

Not sure what I'm doing it. Come baby chucked to 24-carric closer, a.k.a. The brunch hoddy together. We are known as a midnight, boys. God damn it. Follows on socials. Maybe.

If you can. Don't get locked out, Joan. Yo, for real, save Jomey's job. Like, bruh. Save Jomey's job. Insta Twitter, Facebook. Save Jomey's job. Jomeby, you want to tell people what happened?

Look, we got on the podcast last week. We made some, we talked about somebody who we're not going to name anymore on a podcast. Predacted. And you should? You should? Oh, hold on. Hold on. You shook?

I'm not shook. I have a job to do, Van. The block is hot. We were making the block hot. See what I'm saying? We ain't no, oh no,

hold on. We ain't no punk-ass beish. You know what I'm saying? We're like, ah, hell no. We ain't no punk-ass beches. We ain't nobody shook at all.

I ain't scared of that. Fuck Elon Musk. How about that? Yo, bro, bro, bra, bra. Save Jomi's job, bro. Bro. Jomi Jomey gonna be fine.

We don't need that motherfucker. We'll go to Blue Sky. Like, it's like, it's like, nah, I ain't no phone. You can find us on Macedon, Hive, yeah, we're out here. Yeah, ain't no Paul. We're gonna be like, she's. No.

But enough about Twitter, man. We got to talk about Steve's Facebook presence, man. Ooh. But Jomemy, you want to tell people, do you want to tell people what happened before we move on? Like, what happened to the goddamn thing? Oh, man, well, you know, yeah. Elon made the call, pressed the button, and we couldn't tweet.

Alleged you? Alleged you? Allegedly. Allegedly. You're saying this now. What's going to happen next time? The account might just disappear. It's going to throw it to the ether.

How long were we locked out? 12 hours or so. Like, no, like, maybe 12, yeah, something like that. I could not get the pod to tweet. Like, it just wouldn't happen forever I was. I thought it was the internet. No, it was just the account being weird. All the other Winger accounts worked, though.

So that's interesting to think about. But I know. What can you do? A program here, my eyes! Okay. This Friday, Hasvar will be giving you part two of their Doctor Who, Dr. Who viewing God. I've never seen one episode, but I think I should start watching it.

Oh, Steve. How much free time do you have, Val? Yeah, that's a, I don't know if that's for you, man. Yeah, man. I think, I think Doctor Who might be on Vans, this is too white for me list. Honestly, here's the thing. This is my attempt at reverse psychology because he's like, you know what? I'm going to watch it now.

then I'm going to fall in love with it. Well, you shouldn't have told me that you were trying to reverse psychology me because now I know that you are and now it's like, fuck Doctor Who. It worked for a second because everybody telling me I shouldn't watch it. Purple Man was in it, right? It was Purple Man. It was Doctor Who travels throughout time. Yes, David Tennant.

That's going to be the next part two of their viewing guide is going to be the day. So what does Dr. Hu do? What does he do? He's just like an intergalactic, not even detective, but kind of just a guy who helps solve interdimensional problems and adventures. He has a human companion that travels with him.

He's in a TARDIS, which is just like a phone booth that just flies around the galaxy through time and space. So he's like, it's kind of like Star Trek a little bit. A little bit, but he just,

he has adventures and like he solves problems throughout the galaxy and time. Wait, before, wait, I don't want to, we're skipping over something. Please somebody inform me why Steve is being freaky on Facebook.

Jomey? What's happening? We got to get to it, but I do need to finish the program. We remind us next Wednesday. On today's show, we're going to be talking about what we believe to be some of the worst and best decisions in all of fandom. Before I turn it over to Chuck Wagon, what's going on on on Facebook? Every time I open the app, right, to make sure nothing crazy is going on in the Facebook group. It's always somebody talking about Steve, how they want to dip him in chocolate or something, how they want to take Steve and like,

his voice, bro. I'm serious. You got to go in there, man. You got to address the comments, bro. We really need to do a dating there, bro. We need to do like a bachelor-style dating show for Steve. Let me tell you what my problem with Steve is. Okay. Oof. All of you guys are like brothers to me.

All right, people ask me, man, how many brothers do you have? I got three little brothers and I talk to them all the time. All you guys are like brothers to me, right? Steve, though, Steve is stingy with the vanilla cone. Scrooge McDick? Scrooge McDick. Okay. Stop it.

Steve got women clamoring for. We really need our juno on these calls. Clammering for it. And Steve acting like, I see you the women on the Facebook page, right? They like you. They want you. Okay? Go on there and engage with these.

I see you're elected to do this the hard way. Yeah, I'm going there and engage with these ladies. Like, who you think you are? Who do you think you are? That you, that you, who are you think you are? I'm just not really on Facebook like that. You know, I'm just, stingy Steve. All right, I get it.

I'm stingy Steve. Steve, I'm telling you right now. My dad used to say, if you don't use your talents, God will take them away. Oh, my. The second issue said that, I was like, oh, no, what's going to be? All right. Chuck, now that we've sufficiently turned off a large portion of the audience, Chuck, take it away.

All right, guys. It is time for the worst and best decisions in fandom. Each of us has picked one best and one worst decision ever made. We're talking about the type of things that either keep us up at night because of their brilliance are haunt our nightmares with their sheer stupidity. Van, Jomey, Steve, and I each had made our own selections independent of each other. and we'll present our cases to the other three. After said presentation is over,

the boys will have a short debate about whether or not the choice belongs in the halls of the worst and best. Vanden decisions. Van, it's your turn. Take us away. You can either start with one of the best or one of the worst.

Where are you going? I have the best decision in fandom, bar none. I don't think he can be beat. Okay. I really don't think it can be beat. I'll be honest with you. I don't think he can beat.

The decision to cast Robert Johnny Jr. as Iron Man. Sorry, Jomey. You stole Jomey. I didn't know what Jomey had said. But that was my, like, that is not only the best decision in the history of fandom, that is one of the best decisions in the history of film.

I can argue that there is not a more consequential decision than the decision to cast Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man. And I'll tell you why. the tone, the look, the christeness, the way it moves, the entire DNA of the MCU is extracted out of Robert Dynne Jr.'s performance in that movie. The whole glob jewel of it, he outlasted with his portrayal of Iron Man, directors, like, fucking studio people, all of that. He was the glue that held it together for many, many years. It just simply wouldn't have existed if not only that movie wasn't the hit that it was, but also if he didn't bring that sort of real world rye, wink and a nod,

but grounded actor type of feeling to that role. He just, he made the MCU with that one performance. All right. So really quick, I need to ask y'all. we're doing half-ass internet research. I'm looking up all of the actors who almost played Ironman. In an alternate universe

where RDJ is not chosen, I want you guys to pick who would have been the best replacement. We have Nicholas Cage, Tom Cruise, Rob Lo, Leonardo DiCaprio, Hugh Jackman.

They all fail. But, yeah. I mean, I mean, Maybe we're, maybe this is. You have to choose, though. You have to choose. If I had, give it to me again.

Give it to me again. Give it to me again. It's probably Tom Cruise. So Nick Cage, Tom Cruise, Rob Lo, Leonardo DiCaprio, Hugh Jackman. We also have a few others. You can choose from Clive Owen as well.

Timothy Oliphant, Sam Rockwell. I will go with Timothy Olive Sam Rockwell. Timothy Olive. I will go with Timothy Allofan or Sam Rockwell. I feel like there's, no, Olive Fan.

O'AFant's got it. I will go with Timothy Oliphate. I like Sam Rockwell. I love Sam Rockwell. He's great. I think San Rockwell has the smarmy thing. He's got the juice for sure. He really does.

I love Sam Rockwell too. Like Moon is one of my favorite movies to this day. But like I don't know if he's Tony Tony. Again, it's so endemic of just like RDJ is like kind of it. I'm curious because like there's the, I debate this whether or not like it's, it's a combination of both the great decision. and fighting for that decision to keep Robert Donnie Jr. Because he turned a lot of executives and bigwigs at Marvel off to make that casting decision right.

And he was fought for quite a bit. But I'm curious if he also rose to the occasion quite a bit more than we expected because his star was nowhere near on the rise as it was. And it more or less made him like insane, like A-list. It rocketed him to A-list. Robert Dollar Jr. is Sam Rockwell of the same height. I don't know why. I didn't know why I thought they were...

Wait, so another thing I want to know, though, about Robert Downey Jr. In retrospect, do we think that all of the MCU's current problems, well, not all of them, but the majority of them, kind of go back to what you were saying, Van, which is like,

because Robert Downey Jr., so much of the MCU is him, he is the blueprint from the humor to the way the actors act, to the bits, all of that, is our part of the MCU, that can never really capture the glory of what it was because you could just tell he's not there anymore.

Even, it's not like he was in all the movies, but Iron Man not being in there anymore makes the MCU so much different. So let me, let me take both of those, those questions. Like, we should all take both of those questions aside. Steve's question was, what was your question, Steve? It was the, it was the success with the goodness of that decision, Robert Donnie Jr. rising to the occasion of what the MCN, you would eventually become,

or was it the fact that he was fought for and advocated for in the beginning to know that he was that star to begin with? So within five minutes of the movie, you knew the movie was going to be a hit. Yeah. Legitimately. Robert Johnny Jr. has had a thing inside of him

that has made audiences fall in love with him since he was very first on screen. First, as a young, fresh-faced actor, in movies like less than zero, chances are, like weird science, back to school, things like that. then he takes a turn and chaplain. Then there's a long time where he's not doing so well and everybody's just rooting for him.

But there's a movie star thing there to where he can deliver a believable scene and also make you want to be in the room with him because he's such a cool guy that he has in spades that nobody else really has. I mean, nobody. Like he's singular in that way.

Other guys have this cool, mysterious type of thing. Robert Donnie Jr. has the, he's going to say the right thing at the right time guy type of situation because he's that quick and that witty. And it's two things about the character. It's one, watching him get that off for so many times. Like you diss him and he comes back, genius, genius, billionaire, playboy philanthropist, whatever way it was.

And then it's two, watching him lose that. Like when he doesn't know what to say anymore, when he doesn't have the answer, it grounds the whole MCU. Now, and so to me, it was fortuitous that they were able to get him. because in another world, he's already such a big star that he doesn't do the movie if he never has the problems that he asked.

So it was just things working out the way that they were supposed to work. But literally, I wasn't sure about it, but when you sat your ass down in the seat, five, ten minutes here, and you're like, they got something. To Charles's point, Charles, what did you say? So my question was,

is part of the MCU fumbling the fact that you cannot replace somebody like Robert Downey Jr. Like he was the center of this universe and every single time you watch these movies, you're like, there's something missing. I mean, yes and no.

Because he, like, he, like, he's by no means the creative force. He is by no means, like, the writers, directors, all those, like, big executive and creative decisions that go into making all of those films. But you can't deny that, like, with the, you know, passing of the torch from endgame to phase four on, the sun setting of those heroes really means something. And for everything that it's missed, it's definitely been a giant Tony Stark-shaped hole

to where we are kind of looking for our beaming charismatic center to anchor us to be like, okay, once we see this character, we're back home again. Like, regardless of where we're going to be, like, seeing again, like, even if I didn't like something that, like, Thor would have come out from the dark world, or, you know, if Antman was okay, we come back, we see Civil War,

we see Iron Man, oh, man, we're back to the races again. I don't know. Like, that's what I said. I thought it was Chad. I thought, I think it was going to be Chad because he wasn't trying to replace Robert Downey Jr.

What made him a singular star was different. So it was like, I think he was on that trajectory, rest in peace, where it was like, Black Panther was about to be that character when he pops in the Avengers. You're like, okay, like we're here.

Like, the star is here. And I think that, like, they haven't been able to find someone on that level of gravitas yet, which is like a weird place to be. Yeah. I mean, this is why I, you know, not take it back to the Mid-N-N-Meter-12 episode. This is why Iron Man is so high for me. This is why I put this movie up there with the goats is because this movie, like, set a standard. This movie ushered in an entire universe worth the films. Right. And it doesn't happen without Robert Downey Jr. coming in. And like Van said, the first five minutes being like, oh, dude, that's, as Tony Stark, as Iron Man. You know, like that movie, we don't have the MCU unless Robert Downing Jr. comes in and puts on that performance. You know, and that's why I rate this movie. So I think, yeah, like, R.D.J. is Iron Man. Like, it's really, really one of the singular great castings in film history.

I think there's two things. It's one that not having that central character. to ground your universe. Of course, that's a part of it, especially when someone's so good at anything. I mean, everybody goes through that,

right? The Bulls are still looking for how to be relevant in a long term without Michael Jordan. When you have the Michael Jordan, then it comes on, what happens after you,

Michael Jordan, right? That's why you have to take the Lakers approach. The Lakers approach is that the organization is bigger than the, any one specific star, right?

They've never had somebody on the level of Michael, but still, they've had a lot of guys that were almost there, you know, but the purple and gold outweighs anything. Marvel kind of didn't do that.

Marvel didn't seem like they planned for after him because the crescendo was so huge and then they killed him. And then it's like, what could we possibly care about more now? Thanos killed half the people in the galaxy and they had to go back in time to get them back. So like what could we care about now?

What could you make us care about now? You can't even make us care about Tony anymore because he's dead. So I think it was Robert Downey Jr. But I also think it was also the fact that he was in Spider-Man, that he was in Civil War, that he was in all the day. He was popping up all over the place. And it started to be like, I mean, we always love to see him. And they stopped making Iron Man movie so they had to get something out of him.

But it was kind of after a while, it was kind of like, huh they're really not they haven't really drafted anybody else and maybe that person was Chadwick but even to that point I don't know that Black Panther or Chadwood Bowes was Black Panther would have had the same effect on the universe that that Robert Donnie's Iron Man would have I don't know that it would have but I don't know that they prepared themselves well enough for life without him and I think that there's some other things that are at work in there too but I don't want to get canceled. Yo, all right, moving on. Oh, daddy.

Oh, father. You know, I'm going to start with the worst, characteristically, of myself. I've always felt this way. I think, shout to George Lucas, the legend. Love them a lot. I think the Mid-Achlorians are probably

one of the worst things to happen to fandom and storytelling because of, like, what it starts. I think, objectively speaking, the force is one of the coolest storytelling mechanisms ever created. It means so much to people. At one point, it's like, the force is a religion. It's a way of being. It's a way of explaining the universe. And the minute that you try to break down what the force is to make it more scientific, to put it in this box, You start getting this problem that I think Star Wars has had for a very long time, which is they just try to explain way too much.

Instead of Boba Fett just being the cool guy, they're like, let's give him a real, like a backstory. And we're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's lame now. I think, like, them trying to be like the Jedi, super, super cool. Then you go back and like, oh, the Jedi were just like lawyers? Oh, I guess. Fine. Cool.

I think the Mid of Glorians just not broke Star Wars, but set it down a path that we're still trying to dig ourselves out of, of like, what is too much? What is too much in this universe? And what should be left to the mystery? What should be left for us to imagine? Because I think those original three movies left you so much room to play with. The expanded universe is a perfect example where we can play with this thing.

Yeah, I think the middle of Koreans is like, it annoys me to this day. This is a fair point. I do have questions for Chuck and for the rest of the crew. Original Star Wars comes out, 1977. Fundamentally a different time in America. Yes. Okay. We're still very keen on wonderment.

We're still, hey, how did they do that? by the time we get to 99, we're not as jaded as we are now. We're getting there, though. We're getting there. We're a lot more jaded. We're not as jaded as we are now,

but we're getting there. And this is also after a lot of the expanded lore stuff, which introduced a whole bunch of new stuff into Star Wars, do you think that the mini-chlorings and all of that stuff was more of giving the fans an explanation

in a world that needed more explanations or was it George Lucas making the wrong decision, Chuck? Oh, me? I think it's a mixture of both. I think one thing if we've learned about George Lucas is that left to his own devices,

he will make the world bigger and more complicated when I think the beauty of those first movies is how restrained they are in just dumping you in the middle of this epic and not bothering to do that. I also think that, like, if I'm George,

I have to give him a little leeway because think about how much his world had grown outside of him. Think about how much the expanded universe between the books and the comics and the toys and the shows, something that was like his beautiful, little story that he came up with his head is now a billion dollar industry. And I could see him

trying to be like, no, this is still my story. If I explain how I really want it to be, I can claim it again, which I like, I can get, if you're an artist, you can understand that being like, no, I want this thing that I created to be mine again, which is why I'm not so much mad at George Lucas. I'm just mad at, like, us as a society constantly wanting to be shit over-explained to us and not loving the beauty of like, hey, man, sometimes, to your point, man, the wonderment is why we're here. I think it's kind of the opposite because, like, I feel like that, like, 99 when Phantom Menace comes out and we get, you know, metachlorians and all of that. It's like the earliest days of on mass internet discourse. And a lot of the pot boiling around people not liking or not understanding things,

both from like those, you know, emphatic hardcore fans that were then reading all of those expanded lore novels and all of those things. They had a lot to say. They had a lot to talk about. And then casual fans or just fans of like Star Wars in general also had. you know, a democratized voice on the internet in those early days where all of those things could be discussed. In a weird way, like, regardless of whether or not people liked the film and if it did poorly or not, because it didn't do poorly, it was a massive success, they had a lot to like have an echo chamber for for when the next film came out and then the next film came out.

And those could still be bad movies, but we start to learn the more toxic sides of discourse and the more toxic sides of not having good faith when we watch the stuff that we love, regardless of whether or not we even think that it's good. We haven't, we've kind of lost a little bit of faith in, like, actually talking about those things in a bit more of a, you know, nuanced way. And that really hit on mass. And, like, Metaclorians were, like, the antithesis of that, bad decision in the storytelling, but, like, the amount of times that a lot of people can just say that they hated Metaclorians,

like on mass was like the first time in a very long time and I found that fascinating Can I posit a hot take real quick It's a little spice Give us the hot take I don't mind the middle chlorine stuff

Joe I didn't It doesn't bother me that much either I mean it doesn't bother me that much I don't love like I'm not gonna sit here and say I love the Phantom Menace right But in the previous Star Wars

Syllogy you know it's easy For Yoda and for Obi-1 to be like this young one he's strong with the force right but anakin is so different just being like man he's strong with the force what is that what does that mean right what does that mean for aniken right who we know is like probably the most powerful force user probably in star wars history i mean canon i don't know van you know the legend's canon better than almost anyone right but as far as Canaan, since you're an Anakin, is like one of these strongest forces ever, right?

How do you posit that? How do you, you know, are dead, he's really strong with the force. We've already done that, right? What makes him strong in the force? You know, and it's his mid-ocloian count. Show me, though. Don't tell me. Don't tell me that.

Just show it to me. You already show what you're showing me on screen. He could drive a podraiser. But let me tell you something. They can't show you why, though. So, look. Oh, I turn this off. So, so the, I'm not saying that the mediclorians are great,

but I'm saying I don't mind them, right? Yeah. I think you can, you can show that Anakin's strong in the force. You can't show why. You can tell why. You can say, hey, because it starts to get, so the force fathered, Anachin. Or was it fucking Darth Plague's or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like

the force father Anakin. Okay. The force is his dad. Like, how does that happen? Well, the midi-chlorians father them, right? If not, it's not real, it's not kind of religious. It's hyper-religious now. Now, it's Anakin is the strongest in the force because we say he is. All right. And this is the way that the force runs. What the midi-chlorians do do is they give some sort of explanation of the galaxy which Star Wars

actually does a lot like there's a reason why the Pergals can go into hyperspace right they're simply they're essentially farting through

hyperspace you know what I mean there's a reason there's a true I can't believe y'all are defending midaclorians

hey man like cows got methane and that fucks up the ozone like that's just cow farts Like that's science. We're anti-science now. I understand what you're saying.

And Charles, you're not wrong. I do think it's the kind of argument, though, where nobody's wrong. Because there is something that's a little static about, like, oh, there's a biological sort of thing that makes him better. That there's a talent inside of him. And it's biological. But it was always going to be that way. The fact that Anakin could do something at nine or ten years old that nobody else could do, it was always going to be he was just better than everyone. The question is why, you know?

And so if you make a, like, the more you learn, all of this stuff they figured it out, the more you learn about what a hyperdrive does and how it oriented itself and all this. There, all of that shit used to seem like magic, but they made it made sense. So I think the force was kind of the same thing. But I do agree with your premise, though, it did kind of be like, I don't know, man. Wouldn't that supposed to be some Jesus shit? You know what I'm saying? But that wasn't like a, that wasn't like a, that wasn't.

wasn't like a on-mask, like, oh, come on, moment in the theater, right? Like, I was nine years old when that came out. Like, I wouldn't know. Yeah, but in retrospect, when you go home, it's like, what? I'll be real with you. I didn't even understand it. Like what they were saying?

Not really, bro. So, like, so, like, so I don't think, it took me a second to kind of get what it meant. There were little things inside your blood, and the symbiosis with that has made you be able to use before, I was like, at first when he was doing it, I didn't

really even get it. I was too, fuck, my heart was beating too fast. I was watching Star Wars in the theaters. That was the first time I had ever watched Star Wars in the theaters. I didn't even see the re-releases in the theaters. I didn't get a chance to go see him. But yeah, so I don't know. I don't know. That's an interesting one, no. Because that's

a universally lawed at worst decision. The question is, is it really worse? I mean, there are more, we have more Star Wars ones coming up. So we'll get, we'll get to it, Joe. It's almost like all of them are Star Wars ones. Almost all of them

might be. Jomey, what are you going with? The best or worst? I'm going with the worst because you want to save the best for last. And on a positive note, yeah, you know. And I, yeah, we're going to continue the Star Wars

train. The Star Wars slander. Sorry, Kathleen, I know you're a big fan. But I got to go with the sequel the sequel trilogy as like a hole. Damn. Like a hole. Right. And here's my thing.

It's tough. Here's my thing, right? And it's just, it's simple, like, I don't want to say simple mathematics, but like, there's some things that when you're developing, like, a story, you're having a long, you know, like a trilogy. You want continuity. You want consistency. Right.

So, for example, let's take a look at the original trilogy, right? The story, every single story was by George Lucas. Okay, George Lucas developed the whole story, did the whole thing by himself. Let's take a look at the prequel trilogy. No matter how you feel about it, it was consistent, right? Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Revenger's Sith, all, not great, but all had the same through line. Yeah, really shitty through line. It was bad, but it was the same through line.

You can follow the thread in between the three movies, right? Fair. Let's look at the story credits for the sequel trilogy. One person did the stories for the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy, mind you. Let's take a look at the sequel trilogy. You have J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Caston, Michael Arndt, Ryan Johnson, Derek Conley, Colin Trevereaux, J.J. Abrams, and Chris Terrio. How many people are cooking? Behind the scenes. These are for three different movies, mind you.

Right. We could even look at the Captain America trilogy, right? Different directors for the films. But each of them is written by the pair of Marcus and McPhile. Right. So again, there's consistency throughout the three films. Right. When you look at the sequel trilogy and where it went wrong,

You can argue about The Last Jedi, the Rice Skywalker, this and that from here to the cows come home. But at the end of the day, by not having a consistent story, a consistent writers, somebody shepherding the thing along is like, hey, we've got to hit this beat, want to hit this beat, want to hit this beat from start to finish. That's how you end up with the Rise of Skywalker. Because you're trying to fit all these things in the last second, kind of fumble around after, you know, the reactions to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the, you know, the reaction to the. Last Jedi and you end up with quite actually the worst movie in Star Wars history. All right. Wait. Tell me, in fairness, like, this is going to be my hot take.

On average, the sequel trilogy is better than the prequel trilogy. On average, if we're being real. Think about it. Like here's the thing. The Rise of Skywalker hurts the average, but Attack of the Clones is just as bad as the rise of Scott Walker. If we're being... No, it's not.

No, it's not. Attack of the Coles is bad, guys. It's bad. It's not as bad as a lot. It's not as a rise of Skywalker. Really? Really? It's bad.

It's bad. No, it's not. It's not. Come on. No. See, here's the thing. Y'all are letting the clone wars like, rehabilitate the prequels. When I'm just like, yo, I know how we were talking about this shit

before Clone Wars, before Osoka. Like, guys, come on. In a vacuum, y'all know all three of those movies are cheats. All three of those movies are cheats. All three, of the movies. All right, Revenge of the Simps is okay.

It's okay. But the first two are... Don't let him get started. Don't let him get started. So here's the weird thing. I'm not as big a Last Jedi guy as you guys are. I'm not. However, what you're saying is still true.

The sequel trilogy is still on average, probably better than the prequel trilogy. But let me tell you what the difference is. that puts the prequel trilogy ahead of it. The prequel trilogy ends on a high and the sequel trilogy ends on a low.

That changes your perception of watching them because you think, okay, these other two movies were not great, but how I felt at the end of the entire experience is good,

to a degree. So you're saying that like if only Rise of Skywalker wasn't as bad as it was, would we only be doing this? So Jedi is not the best of the first three, right? It's probably the weakest one. However, it manages to carry enough energy through to the story to where at the end of Jedi, you feel whole and refreshed from your experience with the first three movies. With the sequel trilogy, that's just not the case.

You feel like everything was a waste of time. you do it makes the other movies that are actually good movies it makes them feel worse yeah it makes you feel stupid for caring about those first two movies yeah that's the difference

so to Charles's point I mean you can't deny that the average movie in this sequel trilogy is better but the overall experience I don't think it's I think the prequel trilogy does way more right

in the well because they're Because the prequel trilogy is on an incline, and then the sequel trilogy is on a downslow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I'll put it to you this way. When I walked out of Revenge of the Sith, I was at least like, they did a good one finally.

I was like, all right, yeah, cool. Like, it was like, it was triumphant. To Jome's point, when I walked out of the fucking rise of Skywalker, I was just like, I wait. How many years of my life did I waste on this trilogy, bro? You know what it made you feel like? And, you know, we've talked about. this movie a lot here recently.

It made you feel like they didn't care. That's the thing. It made you feel like they didn't care. Like they were just doing some shit. And that it wasn't that big of a deal. And I'm trying to tell them like, nigger, this is a big deal to me. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I try to be like, that's kind of the thing.

No, you mean, you talk about it. Like, when you get to a point of movie, we're like, oh, this is whack. It's been 10 minutes. This is whack. 45 minutes. This is whack. I remember when they got the Wayfinder, I can't remember me. I mean, like, remembering this.

They're the Wayfinder trying to find the whatever secret thing they're trying to find. I was in a thing like, man, it's stinks. Yeah, it's bad. This is whack. There's no coming back from this. And then at the end, when they kiss, I was like, this is the worst movie I've ever seen. This is, like, I've never seen a worst movie. I was literally like, like, you could hear audible groans in the theater.

You're like, ugh. Disgusting. Yeah, it's just. It's just one of those things where you, we know, like, I'm not going to sit here and, you know, act like I'm a big, how do we produce? Like, you know, I know how these things go, but like we should have, there should be some, you know, some knowledge of, hey, if we're going to tell the story, we're going to have all these different directors. There should be a template. There should be something that they follow so that you're not picking up bits and pieces, throwing things away, chucking things on at the end of the day. Like, you want to keep these things, you know, linear.

But it's just didn't happen. And now, like, we haven't seen a Star Wars movie in the last four years, despite Disney buying that thing for $4 billion. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's one of the, like, it's one of the biggest mistakes in movie history, really. Damn. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's Gut Health Challenge by enjoying two Activio Yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference.

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This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has are returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face correct. eruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protected secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser, Kelly Riley,

Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. We really down on Star Wars. God damn, Steve, can you bring us up? Can you start with our best, please? I'll start with a good decision. And weirdly, this is going to be like a weird business decision, but I had read about this in the wonderful, book, the MCU, written by our colleague, Joanna Robinson. And I'm not going to spoil too much about

this story because I want everybody to read it and pre-order this book. But it will be pretty much the origin of Marvel Studios and the big gamble that what would soon to be Marvel Studios make with Merrill Lynch to fund what was going to be Iron Man. And the story goes in a paraphrased way that Feige and his production company cohorts were wanting to, basically, basically make Marvel a studio rather than having to license out the rights to Marvel, like to make Marvel movies, et cetera, et cetera, like you would see an X-Men, like you would see that. That is said to Fox, but they had the rights to Iron Man and a handful of other MCU properties

that we see now. And then they basically leverage those rights to make movies for the tune of, I believe, $500 million in change. $500 million rolling line of credit. rolling line of credit with Merrill Lynch to make five movies. And if those movies could pay back that debt, if the earnings from that could pay back that debt, then they make the studio.

Then they could share all the profits. They can make all the creative decisions. They wouldn't have to worry about having the license out their other properties for people to, you know, take more profit. It's a better business decision. To gamble the rights of Captain America, Iron Man, Shang Chi and I believe one other one that's an insane bet

to make in those early days now you would easily understand it but like to make sure that that was a good idea to think that like okay we're going to make a hit off of the backs of all of those characters and then it turned out to be this like Iron Man One paid back that debt and then some and to think of how

like the biggest part of that gamble was that if it went wrong, then a bank would own the rights to like five of our favorite heroes now. I think that's an insanely cool story. And one of the better decisions because it made an empire now. I mean, I think also what people like forget, like, especially if you were younger, being around during this time, like, we're only a few years removed from like Marvel having to declare bankruptcy and shit. Like, I don't think people realize, like, how in the dirt, like, characters like Captain

America and Iron Man were, like, nobody gave a fuck. Like, it's nobody. Like, I was reading comics going to the comic store. Like, if you weren't the X-Men or Daredevil or some shit, nobody gave me. And there's a reason that the mid to late 90s were like terrible for comics, terrible. Like, movies were kind of just getting their start. Well, there were, the mid to late 90s were terrible for comics because the comic industry, like, over-enosed itself. Yeah, it was, it was like too much.

shit going on and and there was I mean it started out being great for comics and then it was literally like a bubble burst around 95 or 96 I will say this though if Captain America and no an Iron Man were way more relevant and around the time that Iron Man was coming out than they had been in the 90s

and that was because of Civil War so yeah yeah and so like if there was any time to like to ever do a Civil War was like such a big huge comment issue, a big, huge comic deal. If there was any time to do it, it would have been then. I will say

this, though, it was a gamble, but I want you to think about something. They don't really, they didn't really give a fuck. Not like that. Because like, let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Nobody gave because of what you just,

what Charles did say? Nobody can't give a fuck about Captain America like that. Let's keep it all the way funky. It's like, it's like, it's like, then they didn't. Well, no, of course. And so what I'm saying is the characters that were gone,

Spider-Man, the X-Men, The Incredible Hulk, Two and Three. Fantastic Four. The Fantastic Four, the characters who were gone, those were, those are deals that they're still fucking in. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, like they just got the Fantastic Four. Right, because of the Fox and X-Man.

Right? Because of the Fox thing. Those are deals, Spider-Man is still over at Sony, right? But like, if you were going to get those guys in a room and be like, yo, look, we're going to take a chance and go do it for ourselves. And if we lose, we lose Captain America. They'd be like, I don't know. Say no more. They're like, all right, we got to, we got to bet it. Like, Robert Donnie Jr., you're good.

Okay, cool. And I think another thing was, and Joanna's book is so good, y'all. It's amazing. Please, please pre-order it. Damn. I need to, the text Joanna, so I can get a preview copy. You guys,

Joanna's book is so fucking good. But I think the fact that they were able to, like, make us really get into those characters is still fucking magic. No, it's insane. Bro, it's like, bro, if you had come up to me and I love comic books, bro, you know, when the Avengers had something going on,

I'd peek at it. But if you came up to me in 95 and 96 and was like, man, I got Captain America. America number 346 where he fights a new. Get that shit out of my face. I would read anything before that. Strike, strike files, X-Force, X-Factor, spawn. I could make a list of all kinds of shit

that I was going to read before I got to what Steve Rogers was up to. Now I read that nigga. But I wasn't going to read them then. So you know what I'm saying? It's like all kinds of different shit. It's true. Honestly, like the amount of stuff

that's in Joanna's book is like so great. And I'm going to just praise it again. Like the like you could you could option this to make another like, you know, Steve's Jobs level biopic of how this shit got made because it's an incredible story to like know that like that amount of leverage and faith in those characters and things could make something that's, you know, the ubiquity of pop culture now. And that's it. Like it, that's one of the best decisions ever to make to strike out on your own to make that

studio to make that gamble with those five characters. And it turned out into this. Who are we, who are we casting in the Kevin Faggy biopic? Oh my God. Ooh. What is it being made? What years it being made? Oh, it's being made like this coming out in like

two or three years. Miles Teller. Honestly, John Faber. Miles Teller. Miles Teller. Miles Teller is Kevin Feig. What? Miles Teller? I need Michael Serra. I think Michael Sarah.

Get the fuck out of you. You're never meeting that man. Jared Eganchin is too short. He's too short. And he was just hot off Tetris, so we can't take him now. I'm telling you. Could Jeremy, could Jeremy strong? Oh, he's.

Yeah, he could do it, but he's a little. Oh, Matthew McFadden. Oh, actually, yes. He looks exactly. I don't know who that is. That's Tom from Succession. Tom, from Succession. You put a hat on Tom? Come on.

Oh, yeah. Tom from Succession, Wabs. bombscaps. He's an Englishman. I want somebody in American to play. I'm just joking. It's a joke. I know it's a joke. I don't give a fuck. Bro, when him and Sarah Snooker in the same scene, they're just having an American accent off and it's crazy. No, he could definitely play Fagie.

It's his role. It's his role. Figey, the man, the myth, the Marvel. Boom. What I want is like... Call us up. Call us up. I need the movie to start with Fagie in a room with the Spider-Man producer.

and they're talking. It's like, no, no, no, the first one, R. RV aired? Like, you direct, you did the first? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he's like, I don't know if this is going to work, man. I always like, nah, hey, hey, you listen to me.

I'm the best right here. And when you have your own studio, right, they come talk. But until then, you shut your mouth, do what I tell you to do. And then cut 10 years later. And then ACDC Thunderset plays. You see it.

Bro, let me, come on. Get writing the screenplay right now. Let me tell you something else. You know who plays Nate Moore, Tyler from Abbott Elementary. Oh, okay. We're cooking right now. We cook it. I like that.

I like that. All right. Is it my turn now? Is it your turn? What's your words, Ben? There have been a lot of bad decisions in the history of this entire thing. Okay. A lot of bad decisions.

I think there's one decision. that finally killed the DCEU. Mm. And that is The Rock. No, no, no. I'm not allowing you. I'm not allowed to fuck out of here.

Let's go. Let's go. I think the rock was the final nail in the coffin. Let me tell you what the rock did here. Seriously, I want to tell you what the rock did here. So is this decision just the rock and DCEU in general or just Black Adam

in general? This is Black Adam. And letting the rock control black at him. And let me tell you why. Right. The DCEU had some bright spots. A bright spot that doesn't get talked about that much is Shazam. One.

One. Shazam one was a bright spot. That was a competent film that is made. Didn't do gangbusters at the box office. It was good, though. I enjoyed it a lot. It was good. Yeah.

Okay. That movie is a natural table setter for Shazam to be able to, in a sequel film, face off against his chief rival, Black Avenue. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it would have been a lot of fucking fun. It would have been great. When I'm telling you, it would have been a lot of fun. You can have all of the Shazam adolescent baby children up against the rock, shit flying around,

everywhere. You get the opportunity to have all kinds of crossover show up cameos and you get a real amazing film, right? This decision showed the dysfunction at DC. That's not what they did. They let the rock do a

fucking mindless brainless straight to DVD, Amazon Prime. How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? called Black Adam. Respect the Amazon Prime. Who is the character who I love Amazon Prime.

I love you guys. Citadel, not streaming. But hey, I'm going to be real with you. Citadel is good. It is. I'm real. Ciladdle is good. Let me tell you why I say Amazon Prime.

Every once in a while I'm clicking through Amazon Prime and I see Fortress, awakened. And I'll be like, it'll be like Clive Owen, Anthony Hopkins, Lawrence Fishburn. And I'll be like, yo, when the fuck did they make this shit?

Like this, you mean to tell me like this shit didn't go to the movies? Like, when did they make this? Y'all know y'all have seen those movies and it'll be like... I got the fire stick. They'd be showing movies all the time and I'm like, sometimes be like, wait,

this was a real movie? Like, I'll be seeing like who's in it and I'm like, goddamn. Yeah, when did they put this out? How come these guys couldn't get this movie to the thing? You know what I mean? Anyway, Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson are buddies.

And I'm like, what the fuck? buddies. You know what I mean? Like this didn't come out. And that decision literally ushered in the James Gunn tenure. So,

we don't know what that tenure of James Gunn is going to be yet. This might end up being a decision that is good at the end of the day. But in terms of furthering the universe that D.C. already had, it was terrible. And in my opinion, because the movie wasn't able to be profitable, it put a lot of other films

and a lot of other things in jeopardy. It was a terrible idea to let him take such a large portion of Shazam's mythology and lore and go do whatever he wanted with it. You could have had Shazam beat the goddamn shit out of Black Adam or have Black Adam

in some way come around at the end and then even bigger villain. You could have Fiority of Gods with Black Adam working for the gods. There are so many things you could have done, if you have your character. But in a way they did show that they catered to stars and not to story,

so that they showed that they catered to the town, it's Hollywood, and not to the lore, and it ended the DCEU, in my opinion. Remember when they were like, hey, we brought back Henry Cavill and then they're like, no, we didn't. Just kidding. You can't put that at the rocks feet, yo.

You can't put that at the rocks feet. It's the decision that they killed Superman. They was on borrowed time. The DCU was on borrowed time. You know what I'm saying? Like, here's the thing. Did the rock unplug? Like, this was like a billion dollar baby.

Did he unplug? Yeah. But like, she was gone either way. That's nuts. Why are we so dark? Why are we so dark now? This is why you can't record so late. Bro, why are we so dark now, bro?

But back to your point, Van, this is egregious. Come on. Like, you know, like, the rock fucked up. Here's the thing. I'll take that. I'll take that. My hero failed me. But come on, man.

That shit, once they get, like, let's be real. They let Zach Snyder do the Snyder cut. And that's when I was just like, y'all will, like, are going anywhere. Y'all, like, they were doing anything to keep the DCU. You know what I'm saying? Charles, it's time for me to cede my time, but I'll just leave you with this. The Snyder cut is fucking citizen Kane compared to Black Adams. No.

Like, okay. All right. All right. All right. I've seeded my time. Now, I mean, we talk about this on many a podcast before Black Adam came out. And we were like, is Black is the Rock's ego going to get away of like a good story? And like, clearly it did. It was all the hallmarks of a Dwayne the Rock Johnson production, you know, where he doesn't lose a fight.

He looks cool. And at no point, even when he has to lose, he's a. one who's giving himself up, he can't, you know, actually lose a fight to anybody. It's just so bizarre in a world where he could have been doing this for like 10 years, making millions of dollars. All they had to do was fight Shazam one time or twice. And he was like, no, Shazam is too big for Black Adam. I want to go fight Superman.

It's like there are rules to this. There are levels to this. Imagine if Chris Evans was like, yeah, I'm going to do. Captain America, but I got to fight Dr. Doom. Like, that's where it is. That would be sick. That would be amazing. That would be fucking awesome. Why? So Dr. Doom could whip the shit out of Captain America.

What the fucking are talking about? Cavas are not even in the same. Weight class is Doom. Wait, whoa, let's go back. Let's go back. Let's go back. You acted like Steve Rogers would get washed. Wait, you're acting like Steve Rogers would get washed. by Dr. Doom. Like, he'd put up a fight.

No. No, man. He's not a winner. Dr. Doom. It's a dub, I'm not saying he would win, but you're acting like, it just,

he'd get out of here. Hold on. Wait a second. MCU, Steve Rogers might be able to beat the Hulk. Like, like, he's,

like, he's something, that motherfucker or something else. Like, he got the super, curl and helicopters. He got the super, super, super, super, super,

soldier serum. But like the Steve Rogers from the comics, he's basically like Victor Wembeama. Like he's like he's like, he's not like, he can run fast, he can run kind of fast and lift, they say he's got Olympic strength. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like he liked the mountain. You see him like doing

the thing with his toes today? He like LeBron James, but like if LeBron James was taking PEDs. Right. You know what I mean? Like you could Barry Bonds, circa 2003. But the one from the N.C. So disrespectful right now. Yeah, whatever.

Well, he's a good tactician. You know what? I'm going to go to my best, and I was like, I'm going to be really positive here with this one. In the late 80s, I think DC made one of the most important decisions. They set a character off to pasture, a Ronald Reagan looking motherfucker. They were like, if we want to travel into the future, we need to leave the past behind. So my best decision in fandom,

is DC realizing that Superman is low bitch and Batman is way better and he can kick his ass any given day of the week. You know what? Man, you can clear out, man. You're so negative.

Like, it's so negative. This is my best. This ain't got nothing to do with, like, you just, it's so negative. Like, it's really negative. So you're referring to, you're referring to the run of

Batman versus Superman, right? Oh, no, this is, we're taking Zach Snyder. No, no, not the movie, of course, not the movie. But what I'm just saying, just in general, I would say around the 80s into the 90s and still now, D.C. realized they're like, yo, Superman can't do the job. He can't bring us into the future. We need to depower his ass and we need to really show motherfuckers that Batman is that guy. Because if we want to be real, Clark Kent doesn't have it in him. He doesn't have it in him at the box office. He definitely doesn't have it in him in the comics.

You know how I know that? Every single time you ask him, motherfucker, like, what's the best Superman comic you've read? Don't say All-Star Superman. They clam up. You know what I'm saying? Batman is that dude, not only physically, but narratively. And, like, I really respect D.C. having the power to realize

we need to keep that little farm boy in check. You know what I mean? So my best is... This is so... Wow. I'm seeing all my time to fan right now. I don't even say... I don't even say...

I don't even say, deal, thank you. You know, here's the thing, never go against the rock again. Never go against the rock. My beautiful,

my beautiful, my beautiful, God again. Okay. So let me point out a couple of things. All right. Batman, narratively,

is a better character than Superman. It's facts. I mean, Batman is the greatest comic book character ever. He's got the best role gallery. He's got the deepest motivation,

the best stories. He's essentially, essentially a guy who if he eats a bad shrimp, he's dead. So it, you know, Salmonella could kill him. So it's easy. Salmonella would never kill that.

Yeah, it's easier. Going to therapy apparently would because he doesn't do that. Stop, stop. Batman would go to therapy if he wants, but he doesn't need it. He doesn't need it. He took one wrong step off the street. He getting hit by car as a dead man. Let me tell you something right now, bro.

If Batman went to therapy, if Batman went to therapy, there would be no comics. All he got to do is going to help somebody work. it out. That's all you got to do. You go help somebody work it out. Gotham would be in a lot of trouble. What can a therapist do for Bruce Wayne that the streets are already having?

Shout out. Shout out to Harley Quinn. The best episode of Harley Quinn is when she enters his Batman's mind and basically ushers in like a tiny little Bruce Wayne through all of his memories. And a seven-year-old Bruce Wayne tells Harley Quinn, Harley Quinn's like, you know, you could you know, usher in some change and like, you know,

put in some affordable. housing in Gotham and then just seven-year-old Bruce Wayne's like, people pay for housing? Like, he just doesn't get it. He just doesn't get it. Because he's a rich white, no, whatever. Okay, so look, I challenged Charles's notion that Superman simply disappeared.

Never happened. All right. In the movies, in the movies, you are correct. Batman became the number one DC star. and has always been besides the Christopher Reeve era the number one DC star. I'll remind you, though,

that one of the biggest shows on television, during the 90s, the decade that you said Superman was gone was Lawson Clark with Dean Kane and Taylor.

Nobody else about Wilson Clark. That's not true. I know. That's not true. I just trying to get a person Clark but I was a kid.

I know it's not true. Don't attack me, all right? I'm just trying to allow you up. I will remind you also that in the 90s, the death of Superman comic Doomsday was one of the biggest pop culture moments in the entire fucking industry. As a matter of fact, I can make

the argument that it kind of destroyed the industry too. However, Superman still would be in a consequential character. And then right after that, towards the end of the 90s, early 2000s, you have Smallville. This is one of the longest running shows in the history of TV, I think it was on for 27 years. The Superman started off. He was in the fourth grade. At the end of it, the nigger had a whole family.

You know, the whole night. So what I'm saying is, you are correct that Batman became the number one thing. If you drive by Warner Brothers right now, seriously, if you drive by Warner Brothers out there in the valley right now, I always remark about this, Batman is by himself on the big rule. he is and they got Superman over there with the rest of the niggas. Is Superman like Daffy Duck? Is he

the Daffy Duck of them? Like he's just like He's not but to say God is. That they've stopped using Superman there's they've never not right stop using Super Never Super they just made it. They just they just realized he's kind of whack.

They realized he was kind of whack. They started telling different stories with Superman to actually give the character some vulnerability because once people got to the thing that was like, you know what? There's nothing to do to hurt this guy. He's got kind of whatever. Like Batman, you kick him off of him with like,

if Batman falls 10 feet, then he is the 50% chance that he dies. Here's the thing Batman would never fall because he's always prepared. So whatever. True. But what I'm saying is, I'm saying is, DC, Superman, Batman became a big deal.

True stuff. But to say that they turned their back on Superman, they never really have. That's all it. So you're saying, Like, Batman is Gladys and the rest of the Justice League of the Pips is what you're trying to get at. No, Batman, that's what I would say. I would say that Batman is, Batman is Justin Timberlake and Superman is like J.C. Chazze.

Yeah. Wow. Like he's, like they shared a load. They share the load. But, you know, or Batman is, give me something that's closer. Batman is. No, Batman is like Beyonce. And Superman is like.

Okay, first of all, don't blame Brock women into this because it's not gonna, it's gonna go bad for us. Yeah, that's the only T-shirt. I said that shit and I was like, damn. They're about to be on my neck, right. Yeah. I was gonna let that slide.

I was like, I got nothing to say. Yeah, you know. You only wanted me to get in fucking trouble. I don't know. But you can't deny that Batman's a bigger deal. It's like that would be stupid. Of course he is. I think here's what I think what I'll say is,

I think to make a more like the highest tier type of Superman stories, I have found to be incredibly profound. And I think the character of Superman now kind of demands a bit more of a like, if you want to make a good Superman story and a good Superman comic, like you've got to have something that's like profound about the human condition or talking about like humanity versus like some other, godly power or something because the best Superman stories are ones where like a guy from Kansas is faced with something that's like beyond the scope of humanity when all he knows is his humanity.

That's all that it is. When we talk about Batman, we see something in ourselves that's like darker and evil and something that's like, you know, we can kick around and play with in different aspects of it. We don't relate as much to Superman as much as he can relate to us and find himself in all of the things that make us special in a kind of a weird way. That's what I gathered from all-source Superman and that's what kind of what I gathered from like the best of the Superman

stories. I disagree. You gotta make Superman a little, like, you gotta let him have a little fun. Like, why can't they make like a Superman comic? Like, that's like super bad. It's like teenage Superman and Jimmy Olson, you know, trying to get laid. And he's just like, I don't know if I can do it, Jimmy.

You know what I'm saying? Like, they got to make him fun. I kind of feel like, well, so I kind of feel like women will be thorn themselves at Clark. He's like six, six three, handsome's hell, buff, swall. I kind of feel like he'd be turning the women down. I don't think that would be a problem.

You guys should read American. You guys should read American alien. I don't want to, I don't want a cap for Max at this point, obviously. But you got stuff, but I don't want to case. He sucks. He sucks. He sucks. I don't know the case of Max at this point, but it, you know, I still

I still read it every now and again. You got should read American Alien. Like, American Alien is, it's proof that, like, a really amazing Superman story is there to be at. It really is. Yeah. Guys. Also, read, a double

date where Bruce Wayne and Clark go on a double date with Lois and Catwoman. Oh, by Tom King? Already read. Yeah. Very. So funny. It's just like, yeah, like, sure, this dude, you know, squaring off against Doom's Day, I guess, you know, it seems like a matchup. Whereas Batman,

all you do is put another dude who slightly taller and slightly big in front of them, and it's an obstacle. You know what I mean? Like, it's just easier, at least for me, somebody who, you know, wasn't like a huge comics guy as a kid,

but it just made more sense. Like, oh, yeah, Batman's, like, a much interesting, more interesting character because he's not a superhero,

he's not like a superpower being, me. He just has gadgets and his brains and ass it, right, versus Superman. He's like, yeah, dude, he's an alien from another world

who can, like, fly at the speed of sound. At the speed of light. You know, like, what's the, how you have ops, bro? How you're not running your ops off the block? He's the Joe L.N. B. of superheroes. Like, sometimes you have everything that you need and you still can't get it done. It's fine.

That's, thank you for agreeing with my. I mean, I'm just being for real with you. It's just a different time in America in terms of when the two characters is caught on. Batman is a character that you want to believe he can win. Superman is a character that you want to believe he can actually lose. and like those at a specific time in America you needed somebody that could fly through the air

and nobody could hurt him and he still did what was right and then the 80s came and people was like I didn't need somebody to kick the shit out of the criminals I need somebody I'm serious

are you sure not wrong are you saying Batman is a Reagan era fucking motherfucker I'm about saying are you saying the drunk wars gave us the Batman we know and

I'm telling you, I'm telling you. This is facts. Like, fan is spitting. Like, he's, like, this is true.

I'm telling you at a time when America started to decay a little bit, things got a little darker. Frank Miller and other writers were able to go to a place with Batman that you couldn't go to

with other people. They're like, I will believe in hope my ass. Somebody need to come out here and kick somebody in their balls. Why do you think Daredevil? Why do they think Daredevil is popping? Like,

they want a heroes who were beating up the, uh, the pores. The pores. Jesus, What's that? Jomey? Why don't you bring us back to a positive place

after I broke a drug as staff? So what's your best fandom? My best choice in fandom, my number, and this is like, you know,

aside from RDJB Iron Man because that was my pick and Van went and stole it, he didn't even like have any considerate thoughts about me, which I understand. That was your worst decision

thinking that that was... Right? It's Kevin Fagy being a TV nerd. that's what it is and I'll explain what I mean so the year it's the mid-2000s you're sitting at home

you're like let me turn on Fox real quick we're watching some Fox television oh a rest of development is on this is a fun show huh who who directed this episode oh it's

Anthony Russo Joe Russo interesting I'll keep my eye on those fellas And then Community airs A two-part season two-finalie A few paintballs And a few paintballs more

And Kevin Foggie's like Hey These Russo brothers got some They got some cooking Right now Let's bring them in Let's talk to them real quick Let's see what they got

And they give us the best Captain American movie we've ever seen. And Captain America, the Winter Soldier. He's like, hey, we love that. That was great. Run it back. We'll do Civil War. Do it big.

Do it big. Let me just play with all the characters. Bang. Captain America Civil War, another heater. Then, it's looking around like, hey, y'all killed that one. What do you think about Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame? And they deliver two of the best movies in the MCU.

bar none, right? So, because Kevin Fagy was out there watching the rest of development and community, we got Captain America the Winner Soldier, Captain America Civil War, Avengers Infinity War, and Avengers Endgame. You got to speak on it. Kevin Faggy bringing the Roosso Brothers in to the MCU was under the best decisions in fandom, one of the best decisions in superhero history, superhero movie history. So I thought that this was going to be Kevin Feiggy watching television was a good decision.

I'm glad that you said at the end. I'll bring it into the Rousseau's because I actually really do agree with that. So counterpoint though, counterpoint. No and what we know now. I'm not saying I feel anyways. It's just in the ether, in the cultural, you know, soup, the Rousseau's are going through it.

So can this be a best when essentially like every other week It's like the teens going like, we thought we told you, oh man, because the Rousseau's have said some shit that's pissed people off. Here's what I'll say about the pick for the Rousseau's. In our pre-end game era,

I think what Fagie's biggest strength was was picking directors and people that worked well as the Marvel machine was growing. And when the Rousseau's come to do Winter Soldier, like, Marvel's at kind of at the height of its powers.

It's nowhere but up. It goes nowhere but up. The choice of them to know that like to wrangle these scripts to storyboard, to make all of these like big creative decisions at a steady and ultimately fast clip, the Russo's are very good at that. And that's why they've done Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame back to back. I think that those, because those guys are the best that worked inside of that machinery, while also giving us some of the most

like renowned action stuff that we've seen so far. Like you could say what you want about the things that came after that because the infrastructure that Marvel has is kind of perfect for those guys. When they're left to their own devices, you know, they get multi-million dollar deals at Netflix and Amazon and all that stuff to produce, you know, The Grey Man or Citadel or et cetera, et cetera.

Say what you will about those. I think the best types of things is knowing when TV directors and all these things can work like cohesively and those guys were the best at it. I agree. I agree. It's just I just wanted to bring it up because, you know, the teens might be yelling at Jomey even though you're one of them.

So I just wanted to protect you. Nah, man. Like, I mean, there's somebody who like, you know, watched community when it was running and then went back and watched Arrested Development in college. It's, it was just like, I would point, I'd be like, Bruce your brothers, what? And then

you go back and you like, Kevin Figuille was like, I saw this episode of community loved it. It was like who directed it. Let's see if we can work with them and so I'm. And bang, we have Captain America, the Winter Soldier. And, you know, to Steve's point, you're talking about how, you know, the MCU, like, to that at that point was, you know, only on the way up.

I mean, the movies before Winter Soldier, if I recall correctly, Avengers comes out 2012. There's no other movies that year. Then in 2013, we get two, we get Iron Man 3, which I don't mind, but some people on this podcast don't like. It's a great. You all attacking me this episode. What did I do?

And Thor of the Dark World, which, you know, is what it is, right? Then you come back in April 2014 and, bam, give us to Winter Soldier. I'm not going to say that and act like, you know, change the world in regards of, like, the MCU and, like, the trajectory. But that movie, plus Guardians and that same year, gave you nothing but life, gave you nothing but hope. But that's the kind of... Ardian should be a 12 almost is what you're saying. No, it's not. Relax.

That's what you were saying. All right, I got you, Joe. Relax. But also the fascinating thing, Jomey, is that, like,

we can't look at, like, the lesser Marvel outings during that rise of, like, post Avengers from, like, Dark World and all that stuff as, like, oh, they lost this game, they lost that game.

They came back with an incredible performance. It's like they've, like, the MCU had such a backlog of goodwill. And then, like, the steady clip of, will be good. The next one could be good. People kind of liked Dark World for longer than they thought they did. No, they didn't. Just because of how

that's the thing, though, just because of how good the next one could be. I want to be excited to the next one. This is bad. Well, here's, but okay. Well, yes or no. I could, I would argue that in terms of like goodwill, we haven't, I don't think we've gotten over the Thor, Ragnarok, Black Panther, Infinity War trifecter we got in 2017, 2018.

Like the blocks was never hotter. Yeah, but you can't tell me after they have the Avengers with Iron Man 3, which I liked, and then throw the dark world. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll get back to the, like, that's fine. Even if I didn't like it, they're like, well, okay, fine, you got one miss. All right. I don't know. I was a hater back then.

I'm like, it's starting to look shaky out here. And then what happened? If your point is like, oh, well, we can do that now. Like, man, I'm not going to say Turner's, but I don't think Eternal is bad. man black widow sucked but guess what man the 2026 we're gonna get secret wars so it's cool like I can kind of see that but it wasn't like man the Avengers was crazy I AMA 3 was crazy though because we're gonna get uh guardians next year and winter soldiers I don't think we thought like that too much back then no we didn't thought guardians was gonna be shit that's what I'm saying

let's not rewrite history nobody I think the expectations for Avengers were through the roof oh you know it definitely was. Definitely for Avengers. But once they pulled that off, I'm like, okay, you got me until the wheels fall off. And that's what Marvel's not doing a good job of doing. It's like those movies buy you like a certain amount of time where it's like,

all right, cool. You know what I mean? But like when you give off the Avengers, like you got two movies of like whatever the fuck. And I'll be like, all right, you can fuck around for a minute. Like it's fine. We straight. And then they came back and busted your motherfucking head.

They didn't even give up. I mean, they was just coming back, busting heads, bro. They didn't even fucking care in a war, bro. Nobody cared. They didn't care. They was just giving off the shit. Can you imagine going to Winter Soldier having zero expectations? And they're getting out of the winter soldier and being like getting just the shit kicked out of you.

The Rousseau's, to Jomey's point. Shout out to the Rousseau's, bro. All right, good one, Jomey. Steve, you have our last pick. Oh, damn. And I got the bad one. This is the worst. I mean, okay.

I know that this isn't like the worst, the worst, but this is pure recency bias, and it's definitely something that, like, has gotten stupider and stupider to me the longer that it sat with me, and it's just, it really, to me, put a show that I genuinely love off on the back foot for a while, and I'm going to be waiting for a minute.

And that's reuniting Dinn and Grogu in the book of Boba Fett. I love this. It's like, it's not even the, like, in hindsight, It's not the biggest, most consequential bad decision. But everything that I look after that decision with anything that's done with Mandalorian season three, regardless of how good or bad it is, because we've had ups and downs in that season, that decision has such a presumption of Disney thinking that, like, oh, they've

already got us in their clutches. They're going to watch whatever we say. So it doesn't matter if we can bring in something that we're not 100% sure of when we're telling Boba Fett's story because what we need is Dinn and Grogo. We need to have a cute little baby. We need to have din in there because that's where the juice is. So hijacking more or less three episodes of the book of Bocafet, a show that like, you know, again, varying quality, but again, at the end of the show, not his, makes some, it makes this weird decision that I don't know when or if Star Wars

the television universe is going to course correct from. Because not only is it so unfulfilling when we come to Mando season three, but it makes us feel like we kind of just have to be on this track of like, okay, we got to go through the assembly

line of whatever the Star Wars television universe is giving us because we can't miss anything because if you do, Din and Groger are just going to be together and you don't know about it. And you don't know why. and that to me got stupider and stupider the longer I kept watching season three because I'm like this could have been so monumental

if it happened in their own season and it's that level of thinking the franchiseification it's what scared off John Favro when Marvel was getting too big and I feel like it might be happening now it's- goddamn it is white boy day

this motherfucker's spit Jesus Christ God- this white boy day. Keep on, well, the, let's,

keep it up. It's not, shout out to Gary Oldman. Gary Olman. Gary Olman. You know, y'all never saw true romance? Yeah,

true romance. Yeah, talk your shit, Steve. No, it's like, it just, it really keeps sitting

with me the wrong way because it just, it, like, it keeps annoying me because if we could have did that in season three, then something would have felt whole.

Like, things could have been still, like, there could have been a separation there. There could have been a, like, you know, line of demarcation between the things that we could separate stories from and slightly integrated to. If the decision was, okay, fine, bring Dinn and Grogu in, not to Monday morning quarterback, but, like, okay, fine, Dyn's there. We, like, see him interact with Luke, and he's like, oh, he's right there. Like, if you just misses him, great, then he can still find him. them in season three. That's a fun little side tangent that if you saw the Book of Poppa, it's nice,

but they're still not together. But it's the fact that they just unceremoniously reunite in this finale of the show. It really, really sits with me the wrong way. And it will keep doing so until I think we have a bit of a soft reset with what Star Wars TV is going to be right now.

So I don't disagree with you. In fact, I agree with you. you're making salient points. I do think, however, if they bring in season two ends, he's out there with Luke, we come back, they do Book of Boba Fett, just didn't know Grogu. Right. And we come back and we're like, yo, cool. All right.

Season three. Where's Groguer at? And that would have been the question everybody would be asking for eight weeks. Like that's just what it would have been, right? Unless you, they come back and they give us that, like the episode. where he goes and he goes to visit Luke at the Jedi Monastery. Like, unless we get an episode of that or that's cut it between, they just like, hey, here's the thing.

I know you love Den and Grogu. Here's seven episodes. And this just didn't know Grogu. We would have, we would have, like, we'd have pitchforks. I don't know about us. Right. But what you're saying, you're saying that like, okay, now, like, this is going to, I'm going to dip into some, like, sacrilege for a minute.

But you're acting like Grogu is a prerequisite. for the Mandalorian existing as a show. He's kind of a... No, but here's the thing. I remember when we were talking about the end of season two, and we're like, holy shit, what's the Mandalorian going to be now? Now that Grogu's gone. Now that Grogu's gone, that he's actually gone.

And we kind of, like, get excited about like, okay, well, if it's the Adventures of Dinn, then maybe we see what happens. Because, like, in order for that choice to actually mean something, he's got to be away. Not the fact that he has to, like, stay away for long. they could reunite. Them reuniting can make sense in a way. It doesn't matter how long,

but the fact that it's outside of their own story and the fact that it's outside of, like, you can't even give us episode one without him. That's the kind of like trepidation and fear in the trust of the story that you're trying to tell that I can see transparently. I disagree with you right there. You think so?

Well, let me tell you why I disagree. You're right, but there's no trepidation and fear in the story. There's no story. If the story calls for Dan and Grogu to be a part, did fucking put them apart. Sure.

And right to what you got going on. And then when Grogu comes back, you know what? The story called for Logan Roy to die. Obviously, there are tense moments after that thing happened in that show. Sure. Because you're like, hey, that's a really,

important dude. Now what? Guess what it's their job? Now what is the job of the creators? He's not the job of fucking Mattel toy makers to come in here and ruin everything. Because on the back end of it, it still gets fucked up anyway. All Gurgle, all Grogle did in this last season was Gurgle. So. And what did you get? And by the way, he had a couple cool moments. No, no, no. I like that type of shit. But what I'm saying is, like, like this is why and I know no one gives a fuck about Cassing and or

or anybody else I know but what I'm saying is that's why the show was so good because a great creative got to tell their story my soapbox is all out of bubbles before I really wanted to ask y'all I don't want to be like a party poop or anything

but is anybody else worried about air to the empire because everybody's like acting like they're like oh man this movie's going to be big blah blah blah blah blah And I'm like, I don't know if the general populace gives a fuck about like the Mando universe anymore. And like it's making me like worried about like like, like, yeah, we're doing a big Avenger style movie with Mando and Osoka and Throne will be there and blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't know. Let me tell you something real quick.

A lot of people like yourself need to shut up. Why? What a lot? Let me have. Oh my goodness. Please. Please. Can I please have it, bro?

I just said I'm worried. I'm worried that people aren't excited for it. And guess what? Now I'm worried. Before I was over the moon. Can I have something? Where's going to be my time? My bad.

My bad. I'm sorry. I'll say this. I think the line of credit for that is still good with me because anything that has Dave Faloney's full attention is going to be at least something that he puts his whole ass into and that I actually think is going to be. pretty words. His whole ass.

Okay. Oh, my God. Don't half ass something. Come on. That's a phrase. Don't act like I'm weird for saying. You want the whole ass? Oh, wow.

God, Steve. I'm not weird for saying that phrase. I'm not weird. I've heard of half assing it. But Steve said he want the whole ass. Let me find a picture of Dave Filoni. Anyway. Now,

but me and man talked about this in the office on Tuesday. We were like, when do they get started on this? because at what point do we get Mando season four and the skeleton crew and all these things? Like, am I going to be locked in on this in like five, six years? Maybe like three, four years? Maybe not.

Yeah, right? Y'all said six years. Like, I don't know. Like, do I have to watch, do I have to get ready for a Rays movie? Then we get into Air to the Empire? Like, how locked in are I going to be? Especially with the way we're talking about Star Wars. Now it's looking a little,

You know what I mean? Like, it's tough. The season finale of Mando's season four is going to happen in Jomey's wedding in four years. In four years? Well, first and foremost, my wedding's not going to be. All right, Jomey's not a child bride. We're not selling him off to the highest bidders.

He'll be sorry by then. I need a whole dowry for Jomey before the Midnight Boys give them up, all right? Huge tracks of land for our boy. Hell yeah. Here's the thing. How many acres is Jomey's hand in marriage worth to us? Okay, that sounds, bad. Ooh.

1.5? 1.5? Yeah. What? Well, it really depends on where. I mean, Jomi just started off in his life. I mean, no, no, I need a whole field

of peach trees. I need some, I need like, come on, bro. I need... Where is this land? Is it in Indiana? I need farmland. I need generational wealth. Okay, now we're... Okay, now we're going to farmland. It's really... I'm a coastal lead.

I can't really be in the middle of the world. At this point, I got to get what I can get for Jomey. Two blocks in Detroit, man. You try to sell me off like I'm Jordan Bull. Shout out. By the way, shout out to Detroit, which is a place that's going to be revitalized real quick. Shout out to Royston 5-9.

Jason Wilson. Sign up to all my people of Detroit. Yeah, don't watch Barbarian then. But right now, nah, man, Jomey, I might be able to ham Tramick, maybe. You know, Jomey in that area. You can't get me anything on the coast, man. Nothing like you can get me like it We can get Joe Me a nice place

And like North Carolina Fayetteville shout out to Jay Cole We can get you We can't get you a sandwich on the West Coast What do you? Modesto maybe Ah Y'all are being real mean

Dang Y'all being mean, bro Shit, hold on, wait a minute, Wait a minute, I'm like a Tucson type nigga Oh I don't We're not quite deep What's Steve then? What's Steve?

Oh, no. bro. Steve, Steve, what, maybe like right outside of Boise? I'm marrying an old rich

shantuce. There you go. Are we done? Charles, run down the choices. All right. So for Van, we have

Cass R.E.J. And the Rock Running Black Adam. For me, I had Superman being a little bitch and the Midd of Clorians. Jomey had

Kevin Feigey watching TV and then the Seagor's trilogy. Steve, you had Marvel's Big Gamble with Marilyn Lynch and Reuniting Den and Grogu in the book of Boob with them. All right, Dan, you want to take us out?

Let's get out of here. You guys, that's a wrap. Follows on socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, save. Jomey's job this Friday, the House of Arl will be giving you their part two of their Dr. Hugh viewing guide. Okay, that's going to be very fun. I said Dr. Hugh. It's Dr. Hu. Who?

Who? Who? There was a Dr. Hugh. Is Hugh Lorry played House. and that was a doctor. Brought it back. Right it back. There you go.

Credits. I producer is Steve, the architect, Alma. Jomi, a dinner on our social. Hashtag, Jomi's got five on it. Hey,

I got five on it. Hey, sing it. You don't get the joke. No, I do get the joke. Yeah. I do get it. I was, okay, well, there you go. Look at the bright side of things.

She said, give me five. He took it literally. Yeah, there you go. Wow. Wow. All right. We're going to end the five-inch word jokes next week. My mom doesn't like him. Wow.

She doesn't like her. Oh. I actually feel really bad now. Yeah, I'm going to bring her on here one day. You guys don't know why I'm this way, but you'll know. I would love to have her on. You'll figure it out. Let's do it.

Additional production from Arjuna, Ramqapal. Charles, take us out. Jomi's hand in marriage is only worth two blocks in Detroit. But ladies, you still still. should move fast. And if we've learned anything from Steve, we always want the whole ass. You just made me think about

a million-dollar baby. My gee, that's a goddamn tough watch, my man. That shit broke me as a kid. I watched that as like a small child. I'm like, what the fuck is his movie? Don't let your kids watch Billion Dollar Baby. I thought that was a boxing movie. It is a boxing movie.

Have you seen the ending of Million Dollar Baby? I've never seen a million-dollar baby. Oh, my God. You gotta go watch it. Bro. Let me tell you. Hillary Swank is in it, right? Brough, bro.

And Morgan Freeman? There is nothing, Jomi. I literally give you 50 bucks off top. There is nothing that can prepare you for how the movie ends. I'll tell you straight up right now. Don't read nothing. Go watch you. Don't read nothing.

Just watch that bitch. only knowledge of Billion Dollar Baby is a poster and he's like it's Morgan Freeman and Hillary Swink and they're boxing. That's it. That's my only knowledge. Let me tell you something. Go go watch the movie and all right. We got to do this. Go, even if this is post credits, go watch the movie. Nothing can compare you for the wild fucking turn that the movie takes. I should be it for real. Nothing can, I'm, I'm, I remember. I remember. I remember. I'm, sitting in the theater, I'm like, what? Like,

oh my God. Like, nothing. Jomey, your homework, your midnight homework is to watch a million dollar baby and come back on our next show and, like, give us your review. Jomey's going to be like so distraught. Is it to remember me a twist

at the end? Were you standing? No. No. No. Don't, don't fucking, don't ruin it for yourself. Just go wild. Don't.

You got to go in blind. Okay. I'll lock in. I'll lock in.