The Ringer-Verse - 'Venom: Let There Be Carnage' Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

The Midnight Boys are joined by Ringer staff writer Miles Surrey to discuss the blockbuster superhero film 'Venom: Let There Be Carnage' (05:12). They dive into why the film's B-movie attitude works for the superhero genre as well as pick apart its most outrageous moments. They are then joined by Mallory Rubin to discuss the monumental post-credits scene and what its lasting effects will be for many films to come (38:44). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Guests: Miles Surrey and Mallory Rubin Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Did I tell you that we relaunched our TV podcast that is now called the Prestige TV Pot? We did it in time for Succession, which is launching in October. But there's so many good shows this fall. We got Yellowstone and Billions and Insecure. We have the shrink next door. Is Mayor of Kingston going to be good? We're going to be breaking all of it down. The morning show season finale. We are going to be here. Like, we're treated like we treat the NBA playoffs. If there's a really good prestigious TV show, we're breaking it down in this feed. Check it out. The Prestige TV Pod from the Ringer podcast network. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investments. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Oh shit. Oh, where are you going? That is a red one.

You need to come out right now. And you eat everybody. Promise. I promise. Oh yeah. Into the ringerverse. This is of course the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. We are Jomi, the Explaner at dinner on.

We are six Steve Alman. We are. Coke, Baby, Chuck, aka Coke, Kobe, Chuck, aka the closer. And I'm, of course, old man, band together.

We are known as of the midnight, boys. Number one, before we get to those programming reminders, we're going to have a couple of extra hosts on this show today. Wow. We have Miles Morales, Surrey,

joining us today of the ringer.com. And later on, we're going to have Mallory Rubin. Somebody who I know you guys all know and love. It's a special House of Midnight Edition. So then we can talk about Venom, let there be carnage. This is a movie that I thought will polarize people

a lot more than it has. I'll be honest, but... Oh, let's be real. Van and the rest of the Midnight Boys were being fucking haters. I came out hot. I love this movie. And let's just be clear.

They all hated it. And now I'm on the side of history where everybody else loves it with me. That's not what was said. No, you guys were haters. That's not what we're saying. I'm not backtracking at all. I'm going to have time for Jomi in a minute.

I'm running up for Joey in a minute. That's not, you're lying. You're lying. Anyway, program and reminders. On Wednesday, we have the what if finale soon approaching and we will be giving you guys our thoughts on the finale. What if has set up some major stakes in the finale here. It's a lot going on.

a lot of people have a lot of questions as to what's going to happen. Will there be a multiversal Avengers team that is put together to track down and destroy Ultron Infinity. That's the name.

We called him perfect Ultron, Ultron, but his name is Ultron Infinity. That's his name. Ultron Infinity is terrible. Perfect Ultron is better. Ultron Infinity is better. It's better. Okay. That sounds like a Windows X XP. It does.

Ultron. Ultron. Now, with less spyware. And we also are going to give you our 2012 Avengers recast on Wednesday. So you guys are not going to want to miss that. Please check back in with the Midnight Boys on Wednesday. Make sure you hear follows on all of our socials.

That is Facebook group, Twitter, and Instagram, which isn't working today. And there are all kinds of conspiracy theories. he's floating around as to why Instagram is not working. People hit me up this morning like, did you hear about Instagram? Somebody blew the whistle on Instagram and now Instagram is covering its tracks. It's a whole, Charles, you heard about this Instagram thing? Van, you want to know why Instagram's really down? Tell me.

Because Carnage put his finger into a computer. Oh, wow. And fucked it up. Wow, he put his fingers into it and then it went all the way. He just snatching people's pages, taking their verification. Badges. It's crazy. Like I said, we have Mallory joined us later on the show to talk about Venom and the ramifications of a certain and much Ballyhooed post-credit scene. Right now, I teased to him a little bit earlier. Right now, we are joined by Ringer Staff writer and senior

venom enthusiast Miles Surrey to discuss Venom. Miles. How are you doing, brother? Oh, man, thank you for having us. A little Venom humor there. Ooh, he's already on it. Because there's two of them. Yeah, my house, get it. Yeah. I might throw out a symbiote voice, you know, I'll sprinkle it in. I don't want to, like, terrify my cat, so I won't do it the whole time.

Well, I mean, yeah, you don't want to terrify the cat. The cat might get eaten if your symbiote comes out. Exactly. Now, he's hungry. Yeah. All right. Now, obviously, we guys know that this is a reaction podcast, so we've seen the movie and we're about to talk about it.

But because of the current times and people's sensibilities, we have to do this anyway. So go ahead and roll the spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about You're listening to a reaction The spoilers are coming Venom Six Steve is a genius Sixthew is the best

What a sick bastard That was very sick of you, Steve. All right, Venom, let there be carnage. First of all, we should kind of clue you guys in on the reception of the movie so far. It has had the biggest post-pandemic box office weekend to date. $90 million.

Of course, the movie was directed by Andy Circus, but it's currently sitting at 59% on Rotten Tomatoes with an 85% audience score, Miles. Describe to the folks that are unfamiliar with you or your work what venom is to you and why it is so important. Well, I think, like, my love of venom started as a failure of marketing from Sony. Like, if you remember when, like,

they first, like, promoted Venom in, like, 2017, the first trailer made it seem, like, kind of a creepy psychological thriller about this guy who has, like, an alien inside of him, and it made it seem very scary. And then you watch the movie, and Tom Hardy's, like, sweating a lot. He's yelling at himself.

He jumps in a lobster tank. Like, it just totally, like, through your expectations. And I remember, like, normally, like, when you go to, like, critic screenings and stuff, Like, it's usually, like, a pretty chill vibe. But, like, going to see Venom, even with critics,

was, like, one of the rowdiest things that ever been to. Like, I, like, my ribs were hurting by the end of it. I was like, I need to see this immediately again. Um, it just carried this, like, really weird energy that kind of, like, came from Tom Hardy specifically. And then just, um, it was just one of those things. It was like, I need to, like, get the sequel immediately. I need, like, an entire movie where it's just him and venom bickering.

Because you only get that kind of, like, in the second half of venom. And that's the best part. So it was like one of those franchises where it's like, you know, instead of like having to like the sequel, having to live up to the original, it's like the sequel has all this potential because it's got all this like chaotic energy to carry from the first. How familiar with Venom were you from the comic books before? Did you know a lot about Venom? Not really. Like my knowledge of Venom kind of just came from Spider-Man 3 and the guy from that 70 show. Yeah. No wonder he loves the movie so much. Like this, Venom, the original Venom now, he's like, damn, this is Casabwaka.

Yeah, it was also like, isn't he supposed to be like some beefy dude? And they got like the skinny guy from that 70 show to be like venom. And it just, yeah, I had a weird opinion of it. And like the trailers made it look really kind of uninteresting because I was like, how scary could this be? It's a superhero movie. And then like it's like pure slapstick comedy. And I think, I mean, I don't know much about the character, but like I kind of love that

like that's the approach they took because it is wacky shit. Did you have expectations going into let there be carnage? I mean, obviously the first. Vennem hit you in a way that you weren't expecting, that the second one deliver, well, let's not answer that question quite yet, but did you have specific expectations based upon your experience with the first movie? Yeah, I was like really, really optimistic because, like, you know, going to like the first trailer for the second one, like the opening minute of the trailer is just Venom and Eddie having breakfast together. And it's like venom like cooking eggs and like chopping up vegetables and just Tom Hardy looking like, holy shit. Like I had the worst roommate in the world. like this is worse than anything I ever had in college.

And I, you know, I love that, like, they were putting the weird dynamic between them front and center and how, like, it kind of, I mean, we could talk about this later as well, how it sort of like leans into them as like an actual, like, couple. Like, this is basically like a couple that's, that's hitting a rough patch in their relationship. And I'm glad that the movie was like, we're not even going to be subtle about it. Like, we're going to make them like a couple. And like Venom basically says he's in love with him at the end of the movie. Like, they are not subtle at all. They really go there. Basically, I had high expectations from the trailers

because it seemed like they knew exactly what people loved from the first one, which is just Tom Hardy basically yelling at himself. Because he also voices Venom. So it's like a one person, two-person play where it's just a dude yelling at himself. Let's be real an Oscar-worthy performance, if we're being real. Oh, yeah. Same with Michelle Williams, who has to carry a lot in this movie talking with Venom. It's incredible.

And she carries it well, okay? She does. She does. Wait, really quick. Before we continue, then, since we are probably going to all agree this is a rom-com, in your personal life, who is Venom, who is Eddie Brock? Bozeman, my dog. Wait, is he Venom or is he Eddie Brock?

He's my venom. I'm Eddie Brock. I'll tell you why. So there's nobody that's as bad an influence on me as the dog is. Most people's dogs bring out the best of them, not my dog. Because my dog is such my homeboy. that all the stuff that I'm not supposed to do, I do it. You know, we're out there and he sees a cat.

He wants to run after the cat. When Kalika's walking the dog, she's like, no, no, run after the cat. She pulls him back. I like to see him run after the cat. That shit is funny to me. You know what I mean? So he looks at me, like, unclic the thing, go get the cat. Go get him.

You know what I mean? It's like, I eat a steak. I'm not supposed to give him the bone. But I give him the bone. He's my guy. So that's my venom. He's the guy. He knows it too because he'll come over to me.

He's like, yo, man, you jump on my lap. Yo, van, let's go fuck some shit up. Let's go around a neighborhood. Fuck something up. And I'm like, you know what, Bozeman? Let's fucking go do it. So you're enabling your venom, basically. Yeah, I don't want to.

It's almost just like, I don't want to. I want to be better. But, you know, now we're figuring out he's getting a little older. Now he turns one on Tuesday, a little bastard. Now I'm figuring out how to have a better, symbiotic relationship with him. There's like a give and a take, but he's like right there all the time. Miles, who's yours? My cat, yeah. I feel like for a lot of people, their symbio is basically their pet. Yeah. Getting into some crazy shit. Um, so yeah, my cat Lizzie, she's a good girl, but she is kind of chaotic and she's as hungry as venom too. He's yeah, by the way, I will say this. Treat your dog better because dogs should get, you should spoil your dog because it sucks to be a dog. I'm going to be honest with you. We say that it's good to be a dog, but it actually sucks because, you know, I have to cut his balls off. That's very unfortunate, right?

You know, he has to live in this little thing. He's got a, he's got a wolf's DNA, and he has to live in this apartment. So, yeah, I'm a hook my vet him up. Also, he has to see you eating chicken fingers. He sees Jomey stealing the chicken fingers, and he doesn't get any. You know what I'm saying? Jomey treated the dog like shit. Let's be honest.

I knew Jomey. Jomey's a dog hater, but we'll get to that later. We'll get to that later. All right. So let's get back into this movie. Miles, we're going to turn to you for the recap. Normally I do the recaps and I fuck them up royally. But today we're going to give you the opportunity to fail at recap in the movie.

Do you have a recap ready for us, Miles? You know what? I just realized I did a 90-second recap for the first VETAM. So am I ready? Probably not. Okay. So that's my bad. I genuinely didn't even think twice about it until we were just talking. And I was like, wait a minute.

Miles, why would you do a 90-second recap for a movie that came out years ago? Well, because maybe people wanted to refresh your, of the original. Like, wait, what are you supposed to? Miles, I love you. You're the best.

But you know, Venom fans out here, we are persecuted for not having all of our brain cells. And you are not doing anything for us right now. That's true. You are not doing anything

for the Venom fans like me out here. I'm really, really ashamed of you. Then in this case, I say we suggest freestyle. Miles, on the clock, I'm going to play the music

that we suggested. To the best of our abilities, we're going to put together, Venom, let there be courage. Are you ready? All right. Three, two, one.

Venom Let There Be Carnage continues the adventures of Eddie Brock, the world's worst investigative journalist, and the hungry alien that lives inside of him. In the sequel, Eddie is speaking with Cletus Cassidy, an incarcerated serial killer who was offering to give him the identity of his victims before he is executed on death row.

During their last meeting, Cleetus bites Eddie on the hand, which causes some of the symbiote to transfer to him. Meanwhile, Venom is mad at Eddie because he wants to eat people's brains, but Eddie will only let him eat the brains of chickens. But he's befriended two of the chickens in his apartment, and he named them Sonny and Cher. And they finally break up.

Venom destroys his Dukadi motorcycle and starts transferring to other people. carnage escapes in Cletus's body, starts eating a lot of people. Eventually, Venom basically comes out at an EDM rate. I have no idea how much time is left, but I'll keep going. Keep going, Miles. Let's go, Miles. Miles to go before you sleep. So then Cletus kidnaps Eddie's girlfriend, and so Eddie and Venom decide they're going to need to work together,

and take down Carnage and his girlfriend whose powers are never really explained but she just screams a lot. They eventually beat them, but not before Carnage says Let There Be Carnage to title of the movie. They move out of San Francisco to live on an island

where they eventually, I guess, get trapped into the multiverse, but they basically admit that they love each other. So this is basically a movie about two guys who are in love and dudes rock, the end. Okay. All right. So here's a thing.

Not good. But I'll tell you, but I'll tell you, why the movie that recap has a lot in common with the movie. It was a disaster, but it was a beautiful one. It was highly

entertaining. Was it focused? Was it MCU quality? But God damn it. But God damn it, I would do it again. I would do it again. I'm going to have to close this because I've been getting a lot of hate from everybody out there about this movie. And you guys are always telling me to be

positive. Can I not get some of the same positivity for Venom what they're going to be on you're talking to the wrong people charles this a masterpiece yeah i had a lot of it is a this movie is beautiful okay so let's rate it then midnight meter scale of one to 12 here's the thing about the midnight meter 12 is at midnight as superfans most movies will be in the six to 10 range here on our midnight meters okay uh but 12 is reserved for a game changer a movie like winter soldier the dark night give an example of a movie that would be a 12 for you on the midnight meter mouse will be a 12. Sure. Dark Knight, Blade, Spider-Man 2, Batman Returns, Aquaman. Yeah.

Al-Man's a 12th? Aquaman's a 12th. Yeah, Aquaman is like one of the most visually interesting superhero movies ever been. Aquaman's a perfect movie, Miles. And I like Aquaman. Yeah. No, Aquaman's awesome. It is one of those visually interesting superhero movies ever made. So, yeah, Aquaman belongs in there. So here's the thing, Miles. When people come and fuck with the Midnight Boys, they have a choice. They do. About which tone that they can take.

You can take the old band van van tone or you can take the Charles tone. It is fucking clearly obvious what tone you're on today. You're as fucking coked out as any cokehead that's ever been on this podcast. You are Miles Daryl Strawbber. Marbury, 1986. Oh my God. Surrey. You are Miles,

Doc Gooden, Surrey. You are Miles Charlie Sheen Surrey. That's your new nickname. Tiger Blood. I'm not going to

apologize for having good taste. A 12 for Aquaman is where you're going. And I like Aquaman, but you came out here and said 12. So wait, well, really quick before we go, continue. You're telling me, Miles,

that Aquaman and Dark Knight or the same movie. Same movie. Same quality. They bring a different flavor. You know, the dark night, you're there for the story

and the performances for Aquaman. You take a really strong edible. You're there for what, Miles? You take a really strong edible. You go to an IMAX screening and you get transported to Atlanta. It's a great time.

All right. So with that precedent set, that ground floor set, Miles, what do you give Venom let there be carnage on the midnight meter? I was tempted to give a 12 for your reaction, but in all, honestly, I'll give it a 10. A 10.

Okay, a 10. That falls in line with what most movies are in terms of when we rate in between six and 10. Charles was yours? I'm going to give it a 9.75 out of 12. And I give it an 8. 8 out of 12. 8 out of 12, that's a 70, I think.

Let me make sure I got my mouth right. That's a 66, man. I give it an 8 out of 12. I'm giving the movie an 8 out of 12. And I'm Joe me and Steve, real quick. and Midnight Boys as well, what will you give the movie? I'm going to give it a six and a half.

Damn, that's tough. That's real tough. The hair energy today. Jesus. I'm not going to lie about this movie. I'm just not going to do it. Joe, you want about every other thing we have to talk about on this podcast.

Now you're going to stop lying? What do you mean? Stop lying. I haven't been lying this whole time. Stop, Joe. I know Kevin Feig, you've been signing your checks. Get out of here. Steve, Steve, what do you give this movie? I'm giving this, I'm giving this an 8.5 out of 12.

I enjoyed it. Steve, Steve, stop lying. Steve, stop lying. Jomey's, I'm cutting Jomi's mic today. Yeah, like Jomi's spicy for no reason. Jome is so mad. I'm tired of the lies. I'm tired of the cap.

Stop the cap. Oh my God. Stop the cap. All right. So, Miles, let's go to you real quick. What specifically about the vibe of the movie did you like? that made it a little bit different from a Marvel film to you? I think it sort of goes straight to, like, the dynamic between Eddie and Venom,

just because, like, it's, uh, so the screenwriter of this movie, Kelly Marcell, she also wrote the screenplay for the 50 Shades of Grey film adaptation. And you can kind of, if we're going to, we're going to, you know, put our, if we're going to go full galaxy brain, there's kind of like a, uh, dynamic here where kind of Venom is the Dom and Eddie is the sub. And again, this movie really leans into like the, the dynamic of them as like an actual like couple. Like, I mean, Venom literally at a rave goes,

I am out of the Eddie closet, which like, I mean, that's not even subtext. Like, that's just text at this point, you know, Venom is, I guess, a gay icon. I don't know. A queer icon because he, him and Michelle seem to have vibes. They seem to have the own thing.

A little, that's true. That's true. I just like a movie that, refuse to take itself seriously. What you have with them is like a relationship where they're constantly demeaning one another. And it also like when it's happening in public, you have these situations where like like when Eddie's at the police station at the beginning of the movie, he's like in front of the detective

and he's like talking to venom. He's like, you don't deserve nice things. The guy's just like what the fuck? Like little moments like that just sprinkle throughout the movie. I mean, it's like very like the humor that like my 10 year old self would find very amusing. but like I'm willing to stoop that low and enjoy the kind of silly potty humor of a Venetty together.

Now I saw this movie twice. I saw it once at the West Coast Ringerverse screening. It's me, Mal, Jomi, Arjuna, T.D., who is much better, much better what he's not heard from. Can you stop being me to T.D.? Damn. Just saying. And of course, Steve was there as well. And in that screening, the movie,

the movie was, it was very, we were the only ones laughing, and we were laughing a lot. But then when I saw the movie with the crowd, the in-crowd experience reminds me how a movie, sometimes a movie is made and it's playing to its crowd. And if you don't have the crowd there, it's almost like not having the home field advantage when you're on the road, when you're a football team, right? There's certain things that you need the crowd for their part of the game. And Venom is a movie that very much needs the crowd. The crowd is a part of the game because there's certain things. things that you know that they're doing in the film just to get a rise out of the audience. Charles, how many times did you see it and did the crowd reactions in the movie change your

perception of the film in any way? So I saw it once, saw it in New York, and I was very surprised. It was a room full of critics. And usually critics are the worst people to see a movie with. But I don't know what was in the water this time. That movie theater was rocking. We were at the same theater. We were definitely at the same theater.

All right, Miles, you know, like, that whole theater was rocking with the movie laughing for a full 90 minutes. It is, like, the rare movie I've seen where, like, someone was, like, giggling or straight out, like, bowling over laughing. Most of it, probably Miles, for the complete 90 minutes.

That movie was so good. All right, I just need a little runway. This is my whole thing. I remember when we were coming up, at least when I was coming up with superhero movies, the thing I missed is you got a lot of flavors. You know what I'm saying? The Fox X-Men movies were not the same as the Sony Spider-Man movies,

worth the same as the MCU. You would get Will Smith doing weird shit like Hancock. All of it was not great, but I love the flavors. You know what I'm saying? It's like the box of chocolate that Van never sent me. Some people like the cherries. Some people like the coconut. Some people like the caramel.

Van likes all of them. I got none of them. And that's what I want from my superhero movies. Can we just like, can I get a little bit of coconut over here with venom? Not everybody's going to like the coconut flavor. But just leave it, okay? That's what I think this movie is. Like, you have to embrace the fact that, like, Miles said it best.

Like, this isn't the spirit of a B movie. It knows what it is. I don't think Tom Hardy. I don't think Andy Circus. I don't think anybody in this movie is a dumb person. Like, they know what they're doing. And when I saw it with the crowd and how much they were laughing, and to your point, Van, it's like,

oh, no, this is something that's actually meant to be seen in, like, theaters. Because when you see it with other people, that energy of everybody laughing, like, yo, did he just really say, let there be carnage in the movie, let there be carnage? It's just a vibe. Like, how can you hate on that? Very well stated about both of you guys say.

Very well stated with Jomi, you're coming for you. Very well stated about both of you guys. No, because here's the thing, Jomey comes at me every week. Vain, you know what it is? It's bad journalism. That's what it is.

Wow. Bad journalism. Bad journalism. Joe is out here spreading misinformation on Twitter all day. All right? Let's talk about bad journalism. We're going to save our discussion Because obviously we have to talk about the post-credit scene in the movie

We're going to save that discussion For Mao when she gets here a little bit later But I do want to talk about some of those crowd-pleasing moments That we got in the movie The movie had some insane moments Like they didn't even wait To kick us in the gut with the what the fuck Like literally the movie starts

They are in the I guess reform school Or Home for Wayward Ravencroft, Ravencroft, whatever. And they're there. And Woody Harrelson as a guess, it would be a 15-year-old kid, a 20-year-old kid, or whatever,

he starts speaking. There's a younger actor playing Cleas Cassidy, and they dub it with Woody Harrelson's voice. Guys, come on, man. The minute that happened, I knew the movie was on its bullshit. Yes, same. I couldn't stop laughing.

I knew. It's like, because remember now, I just want people to know, that's a decision. that you really don't have to make. I can't think of a movie where that's ever been done. I'm sure there's a film out there,

but there's no reason to do that because you have a younger actor. People's voices changes they get older. So why would you need to do that? So that's the moment that both of you guys knew we're in for something special, different, wild, and fucking crazy. Absolutely.

Then, you can't tell me that you didn't laugh. When that happened, I was dying. I was just like, all right, I'm buckled in. Wait, was that around the time where they did the flashback where it's just like a crappy drawing of Clea? Oh, that's later. Yeah, when he sends him the note that's all in a circle to Steve. That was the explanation of who Cleas Cassidy was. Animated it out for you.

Gave you the whole thing. It's cool. By that point, I was already indoctrinated into the, I knew I was in store for. I think most insane part after that, besides him actually saying, Let There Be Carnage, was when Venom actually infected or got into Mrs. Chin. When he possessed Mrs. Chin, I'm like, yo, man, this movie's going all fucking over the place. One of the best parts of the entire movie. I will say when, like, Mrs. Chen's eyes turn into the Venom eyes and it looks so bad,

I could not stop laughing. A. B. when Michelle is essentially hitting on Venom in Mrs. Chin's body and like, yo, that acting was like top notch. She's putting on the sexy voice. Venom's getting the hard on. That's why she has four Oscar nominations.

Because Michelle Williams is a thespian. I also liked how in the scene before that, when Venom in a dude's body like shows up to Mrs. Chen's store, He's basically, he literally, like, murdered this person. And she's more concerned about Venom's well-being than this, like, corpse that entered. She's just like, oh, no, is he going to be okay? He's just constantly, like, he's just leaching off people and killing them. But I care more about the alien who I have to feed chocolate to, otherwise he might eat me.

Can we talk about that for a second? So Venom's coming out party was an amazing scene. And it was like one of the most outrageous scenes. But it was one where I was like, fuck, and I'm in for the ride. Like, it's happening. This is happening. Venom's talking his shit on the stage in front of everybody else. It's emotional.

He's moving people. He's free of Eddie. But a lot of innocent people were killed, right? Like Venom was trying to- Was he killing them or basically like incapacitating them? I don't know. I think they were actually dying. That's fucking horrible.

Like that, you know what I mean? Like a lot of, I wasn't clear whether or not those people were actually dying or whether or not they were just like getting. and he was jumping from their bodies. But if so, there's people at the party that died so that Venom could get to Mrs. Chin, that's whack as fuck. All right. Sometimes, sometimes to be our truest self, there need to be sacrifices, the greater.

I guess so. I will say this. That was also weird about that scene is like, I'm very confused in a very good way about what Venom finds attractive in a partner because there's one point where like a woman in a mask comes and like Venom's like, uh, not you. But like, he is totally like sexually attracted, I think to Eddie. and definitely to Michelle. And I'm just like,

does he like blondes? Does he like Oscar nominated actors and actresses? Like, what is Venoms, sexual proclivities is my question. Yeah, yeah. It's all low. It's a spectrum, Charles. It's a spectrum.

It's a spectrum. But he doesn't like the red ones, guys. He does not like the red ones. He doesn't like the red ones. No explanation. Wait, can we really quick? Can you give me this? That is the most genius part of the movie.

Because when I saw it in the trailers, there's a point where, like, Venom is finally going to face off against carnage. Eddie shows up and Venom's like, oh no, that's a red one. And I'm like waiting there for a beat. I'm like, all right, he's going to describe what the red ones are. Never describes it.

We don't know. Never describes it. Don't know what the red ones are. Don't know why Naomi can scream and has powers. Wasn't aware that we were living in a power universe other than the alien symbiate. But she said that her shit mutated. She made one, is she a mutant?

Like I have no clue. she made one reference to that, then she has powers. Don't explain why she can scream. Miles Van, I have this question then. There's a lot of points, especially when Carnage puts his finger

into a jack on a laptop and essentially can control the whole internet where I was just like, I was confused about all these moments, but then I was like, would Venom let there be carnage be better if it tried to explain all these moments? Nope, it would just be longer.

It would just be longer. It would just be longer. It wouldn't be any better. It would just be longer. So, I mean, yeah, you're right. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, it's time for us to do a little Venom versus we've done this before. We're going to do a rapid fire round of what did you like better. Steve is going to tee us up for this segment when we go around and we see if we like this movie more or less than other movies of its same genre. I stick Steve, let us know when you're ready. I'm all set.

All right. For Venom films, what do you like more? Venom One or Venom Let There Be Carnage? I'm going to go Venom Let There Be Carnage. It's just at all the good moments of the first one, but like stretch out to that to the full 90 minutes. So that's an easy pick. Venom let them be carnage. Easily.

Easily. Okay. Deserves the Oscar. I'm going to say the original Venom. Really? Yeah. I'm going to say the original Venom. It's very close, though, guys.

Like, it's very, very, very close, though. But I'm going to say the original Venom. Okay. all right venom portrayals venom let there be carnage or spider man three come on benem let there be carnage Steve Steve

we had to make sure we had to make sure you know no one's clamoring for tofer grace to like be in no way wait but if we're being real I feel like Tofer Grace is the only person from that 70 show who like

escaped unscathed so that shout out to him he's not going to win but he's the only one where I'm just like damn I'm like, yeah, I like Tofer Grace a lot, but yeah, it's not gonna be...

Wait, do you know Tofer Grace fan? Never met him before, but he's legitimately one of my favorite actors. Never like, he is. I like Tofer Grace, man.

I'm all in on Tofer Grace. But unfortunately, the easy answer is Venom let there be carnage. All right, next Steve. All right. Tom Hardy,

comic book portrayals. Venom let there be carnage or the Dark Night Rises. Venom let there be carnage, but it's close. No, that's the wrong answer. I was born. Tom Hardy's Bain is one of the best comic book portrayals

of all time. That voice, come on, guys. It's Bain. It is Bain. It's definitely. It's Sean Connery, but it's Bain. It's definitely Bain. And let me say something else.

had the Dark Night Rise has been a stronger, more coherent movie, we would be talking about Tom Hardy's portrayal of Bain up there with Heath Ledger's portrayal of The Joker. Now, obviously, Heath's performance is once in a generation, but it's also because we're so much more familiar with the character and the dynamic between him and Batman, but Tom Hardy owned Bain. Like, he set a standard.

That is a fantastic performance. No. I'll also say Bain's speeches are better than Joker's speeches, even though Heath Ledger's performance is by far way, way better. I think like there are a couple lines that Bain gets off that I'm just like, oh, shit. Like we don't, we don't write this accurately enough. Yeah, Bain, that's a fantastic acting job,

a tour-de-forced performance. All right. Romantic comedies. Vendom let there be carnage or you've got male. Venom let there be carnage. Venom let there be carnage. I feel like I've only seen like let there be carnage. I feel like I've only seen like let there be male, like, or whatever it's called.

Like that be male. You've got mail. I've only seen this just like, like randomly on random nights and I'm just like whatever. It's definitely let there be garbage. Okay. So I like, I like you've got mail. You got it. Like, I really like you've got mail.

Like you've got mail. Are you a rom-com guy then? I am. But like more in the Nora Ephron sort of rom-com spirit where it's out with like, especially the Meg Ryan thing where it's plucky. Pluck, pluck, pluck, pluck. I like pluck. You know what I mean?

This was hard. I got to go, you've got mail, man. You've got mail is, he's got the F-O-X. That's Fox. You know, he's rich. He wants to take over her little bookstore. An early Dave Chappelle moment. And you've got mail.

So, well, not early Dave Chappelle, but early in his movie career, Dave Chappelle. So, no, I'm going to go with you. Got Mail right there. Let's get Tom Hanks on Venham 3, though. I really need to see that happen. That would be great. Hey, after the money Woody Harrelson's cash in. Like, I also love, like, I don't know if they're going to bring Woody back.

But it's very funny to think they're just like, all right, can we sign you up for a few pictures? He's like, no, no, no, no, we're doing one. We're doing one. He's like, we're doing one. You y'all get one. All right. All right. Last one.

Charismatic Murderers. Venom let there be carnage for Silence of the Lambs. Oh, Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. Van, you're going to kill me. I've never seen Silence of the Lambs. I don't do horror movies. I don't do horror movies.

It's not a horror movie. I mean, it's pretty terrifying. It's not a horror movie. I don't do scary movies. I don't do, like horror, scary, whatever shit popping out. People get murdered. All that shit, I don't do them. I don't do them.

That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. But it's tough for you to work at the Ringer and have never seen Silence of the Lambs. I can't do, do you? I haven't seen any, like, scary movies. It's not a scary movie. That's what everyone says. And then, like, I try to watch it.

And then I'm freaked out for the rest of the week. It's a little freaky. I'm not going to lie. but I feel like is, I feel like Hannibal Lecter Hannibal Lecter is more of a criminal than he is a slasher.

He's a serial killer, yes, but he has all of these. Is there blood? He dissects like a guard. And so, I mean, it does get pretty gory. There's blood. He does. There is that one part.

That part is kind of crazy. So you're telling me to watch this movie when you know I'm afraid of scary shit, then. It's not scary. It's not like that. It's not scary. The FBI agent try to catch a serial killer, Buffalo Bill. Buffalo Bill is actually really scary, too, though.

He's eerie. It's not scary. Freddie Kruger is scary. I'll never watch that again. Okay. So in that case, I am going to actually go silence to the lamps there because Hannibal Lecter is a once-in-a-generational film character right there. Miles, look, I'm going to be honest with you.

This is your really first, Night Boys experience and I gotta be honest but you killed it. You did a great job. You know, one of the Midnight Boys who shall not be named was coming at your neck. We don't usually treat our guests like that. So please come back. You know what I mean?

This is an inviting place. We will come back. Thank you for having us. Jomey, do you have anything to say to Miles, maybe an apology for yelling at him for no reason? I sure don't have an apology. What I will say, though.

What I will... I will say, though, I enjoyed the movie. I think it was fun, and I think the risk they took, like, were... Like, you guys talked about venom coming out of the closet. Like, that was an enjoyable scene. I really liked that, you know? I'm just going to say, you know, take those MCU beer goggles off and enjoy other movies. Oh, my...

Oh, it's not even like that. No. I don't even like that. Oh, yeah, Mizza. It's not a little. even like that. Shots fired. We have a new honorary midnight boy.

His name is Miles Morales, Surrey. Gang gang, came out guns blazing, firing, Miles. We appreciate you joining us today. Maybe we'll have him back for, like, I don't know, when we do Bond. And instead of doing the 90-second recap on No Time to Die, he'll do it on Skyfall. It'll be great. No, not even on Skyfall. He'll do it on fucking Golden Out.

He'll do it. Like, we'll bring him on to talk about Bond. And he'll be like, okay, I did a night. 90-second recap to Moon Raker. It's a way to go, Miles. We appreciate you. Thank you. All right, bro. Nice to have you on the podcast, man. Thank you. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything

for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of Nass Energy, high-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets.

Go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it. Now, probably the most talked about part of Venom, Let There Be Carnage, actually comes after the conclusion of the movie. It is the post-credit scene, which brings our pal Venom one step closer to being face-to-face or maybe even tongue-to-face with Tom. Tom Holland's Spider-Man. And to talk about that, we're bringing in Mal, the mistress of the house, the Lord of the House of Mal. Mallory Rubin, Mal, how are you doing today?

I'm just delighted and overjoyed to be here with you guys, as I always am. And it honestly is just wonderful to podcast with you. It is. So fond of you both. Oh, thank you. We all saw this movie together. And we had an experience. We had an experience.

We had an experience. What did you think about the movie itself, like, overall? Perfection, Mallory? Can you join me in Miles on the perfection side? I mean this sincerely. This is not a bit. My favorite part of the movie was after the movie when we all stood around in a circle talking about it and said to each other,

Charles is going to really love that. Yeah. Wait, do you guys, do you guys think so love me? Do you think I'm just a troll who just love to be on the wrong side of history? Can I just love this movie and think it's beautiful

and be happy that we're in an age where we can get something so profound and so special? Yeah, we can do that. I thought the movie was great. It was a lot of fun. It defies description, which is, you know, tough for podcasters such as ourselves.

But the fact that it defies description is part of what I loved about it. It was so brisk and surreal and heightened in its self-aware, deliberate absurdity. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had a great time seeing this movie with my pals, which is something I miss and really enjoy. And obviously, the stinger was, I don't know, not to be hyperbolic, one of the most monumental stingers in movie history. So there's that.

Let's start there. Of all the post-credit scenes that we've seen. And we're not going to go through a whole deal and rank them all. But is there any one of them that gave you the oh shit moment to the level that this one did? I can think maybe only the original Iron Man to where the original Iron Man to where I'm like, Oh, shit. Yeah, that's the one where I was like, oh, we're going. Because the stakes of the stakes of that are just so consequential.

Yeah, and it almost feels like in much of the way that the original Iron Man felt like the opening of a whole new era, this kind of felt that same way. In a good way or a bad way. In a good way because this is the first time, you know, we're seeing. So we have all these universes going. we're seeing people from an established universe in the studio jump over into another one, and it just blows open the idea of the characters that we might get a chance to see on screen together and like what's going to happen and how they're going to navigate it all. So I think that's kind of what happened for me.

Guys, I have really, before we dive deep into this, I have one question before I forget it. I was going Galaxy Brain. I'm just like, if Venom is going to be in the MCU, do you think one day they're just going to be like, yo, it works so well for Spidey. Let's bring over Hugh Jackman to meet the new Wolverine. Do you think that will ever happen? I mean, that was Galaxy Brain. I mean, I don't know, maybe.

Why not? Yeah, who knows? I feel like it's just open. It's all open now. Anything is possible in the multiverse. We learned that from what if last week, right? So every little thing that happens is priming us. So question to you guys, is it all but assured that Venham and Eddie are going to be in No Way Home?

Because I thought that that was the takeaway when I left the theater. But at this point, I'm reading a lot of stuff and seeing a lot of stuff. online that says maybe he won't be, and maybe this is more assuring us that Tom Holland will show up in Venom 3. I think that there are a couple different possibilities, a few different possibilities, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, right? Like the prospect of Venom entering the MCU, which is certainly how I processed the Stinger as we were watching it in real time, right?

is, I would say, close to a lock. Like, No Way Home coming out this December is, we already knew it was going to be this massive crossover studio character event. Like, we know that Alfred Molina's Doc Ack, I mean, we can hear Willem Defoe's Green Goblin laughing. We're getting Jamie Foxx's Electro. Like, we're getting all of these Sony Spider-Man characters in No Way Home already, right? and of course which versions of Peter Parker

will we actually see that hasn't been confirmed by trailers or set official set reports, but the rumor mill is spinning. So adding venom in makes perfect sense. And I think that, you know, I'm sure we'll break down in a few minutes here, what actually happened beat by beat

in the stinger and what those like clues and signals tell us about the multiverse aspect of this all and how this unlocked. But I think it's just as likely that this is all about bringing Spider-Man back to Sony and that from Sony's perspective,

at least that's what the ultimate desire is. My preference as a fan, of course, would be for all of this to happen in tandem and for the studios to continue to find a way to share rights and reach agreement for the character IP because they're ultimately going to make the most money and the best movies that way.

I'm assuming that most people that are watching the podcast right now have actually seen this post-credit scene that we're talking about. But if you haven't, I'll quickly describe it. describe it. Venham and Eddie in the movie, they're on a beach together, and it's very, very amazing. They've reconciled everything, and they're going to be now a lethal protector in a new part of the world. In the post-credit scene, you see them laying in a bed, presumably

near that same beach. And there's a conversation that happens about Venom's race of symbiates and the knowledge that they have accrued living across the universe and everything that they know. and he wants to know a little part of it. Venom says if I even shared a little part of it, it would destroy your human brain. Right. And he's like, I'll try it. Then he then gets downloaded a part of this symbiate racist knowledge.

And all of a sudden, while this happens, his drab hotel room, beach hotel room, becomes all of a sudden brighter. He wakes up in a bed, things are brighter, things are more, they're warmer, a little bit closer to what we're used to watching in the MCU. You see that universal change or that multiversal change go from a little drab to a little brighter. And of course, he wakes up just in time to see the news report that is featured at the end,

Spider-Man far from home, where Jonah Jameson is talking about the fact that Peter Parker is, in fact, Spider-Man. Venom automatically develops a crush. sees Tom Holland's face and licks the screen. And now we know that these universes have now ran smack dab

into one another. My quick question, are the universe, are we sure that the universes were merged? He switched universes. I think he switched universes or do you think this is just

he's always been there and they're just kind of reccombing? I think he went from the Sony universe into the MCU. Yeah, I think he went to the Sony versus into. My question is,

to you guys, what made this multiversal break happen? Is this something that happened in Loki? Or is this something that happened with Peter, Dr. Strange, cashing the spell for Peter? Or that whatever he gets downloaded into his mind between him and Venom, that that break the multiverse. So many things are happening. I'm wondering what broke the multiverse.

In this case, what happened? Mal, what do you think? I like the rest of the viewers out there. It's very distracted by the licking of the screen. We'll save that breakdown for Ring or Verse After Dark. But one of the keys, you know, and I'll say just as a cross the entire segment caveat here, I've only seen this movie once. So I'm trying to retain as much information as possible.

Venom says it wasn't him. You know, when Eddie asks what happened here, because of course he has said, it up by saying, all right, like, you know, yeah, this would break your tiny brain, but if you want just a little morsel, a little nugget, I'll give it to you. And then when Eddie's like, what just happened, we're in a, you know, the positioning of the room, the bed, the TV, the fan, like all of the general vibes are the same, but the room is completely different. And as you noted, I think that's a great observation about the color palette and what that signals about which cinematic universe were in. Then I'm says that it wasn't him,

he wasn't responsible. So I think that tells us that it is connected to a multi- that that has what is what has ported them into the MCU into a different universe, one of the different universes in the now fractured sacred timeline. I think the question that you outlined is the right one. Does this mean that it is the moment in the impending no way home film that we can glean from the trailer is going to have mass consequences on the continued unfurling of the multiverse? I think the fact that the scene in question is, not only what was in this singer, but also the end of Far From Home, and based on, again, these are just trailer clues,

we don't know for sure, but I think we can assume this, the beginning of No Way Home. It seems like that movie picks up in the exact same moment. So to feature that here, well, why does Peter go in the No Way Home trailer to ask Dr. Strange for help because of the identity reveal? Like, that's the moment he wants to walk back. And so I think it's very possible that the MCU is positioning that moment

as this, like, key fulcrum point for a lot of these events. However, I think it's just as likely that it could connect to Loki and everything that happened in the finale with the fracturing of the timeline. Maybe this has something to do with what's coming in Eternals. That's very possible as well. I mean, all of these films are ultimately going to connect. One clue that this was always the same universe is that we got Vulture in the trailer for the Morvious movie, right?

That would mean that that is either, they either had planned this so far in advance that they were just like, yeah, the universes are going to be together, or this was always, this was always the same universe, but they just kind of had to likely write comment. Does that make sense? It does. I see what you're saying now.

I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't understand it before because because Vulture is in that universe and we know Vulture to be a character that was established in Homecoming, then this was always the same universe. I don't think that this was always the same universe in there. We're reconning it. I think we were supposed to see a multiversal break or a

multiversal shift because I think that's where they're going thematically and storywise. So what they want to do is they want to marvel right now is about chaos. That's why the Eternal's point is such a good point in this whole thing because so much is surrounding Spider-Man that we're no longer speculating on what's going to happen in Eternal's, but something incredibly consequential to all of this could happen in that movie that will put us on the exact correct roadmap to understanding this all

and more. But we've stopped conjecturing at all about what's going on in Eternals. Like nobody's even talking about that. Can I galaxy brain you about potentially what might have happened? Before all of this happens, Venom's talking about how the symbiotes are a hive mind. Yes. Potentially, what if Eddie's consciousness in the Sony universe

travels to another Eddie Brock through the symbiote in the MCU universe? Why would they be in the same hotel room though? Maybe the same thing was unfolding. I'm just thinking like... But Charles, I think that could be maybe... That could maybe explain how he recognizes Peter. Because maybe he's like tapping into a hive mind recognition

from another... Oh, yeah. ...thenem, another symbiote elsewhere in the multiverse who has interacted with Spider-Man before. And by the way, isn't it just possible that they're pulling a I Am Your Father situation here? And let me tell you what I mean about that. Like, it's like I watched the documentary when Harrison got his pages or when they got their pages for the Luke's father reveal in Empire. And Harrison Ford says, did you just make that up on the plane on the way over here?

you know what I mean? So I always wonder what was planned. Obviously the trilogy was planned. And so you never know until you're in the mind of the creator. I always wonder what was planned and what just fell into place after rejiggering some things. Meaning maybe Sony was unclear on where Vulture existed. Maybe these universes were kind of together, but not really, which is why one movie is set in San Francisco and the other. one that said in New York, while Eddie Brock really is from New York and was at the Daily

Bue and all of that stuff. They were keeping on them on separate coast to make it seem like maybe they could coexist in the same universe. But now that they have an actual chance to be in the MCU itself that they're taking the multiversal opportunity. Well, I have a question about that in the vulture point. Correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong. There wouldn't just be one vulture.

There wouldn't just be one tombs. and there wouldn't just be one Michael Keaton tombs, right? Like, that's part of what our Loki training is to think about variance across the timeline. So there presumably are any number of vultures, and some of them have gone on the parallel existence, and some of them have made different choices, right, that have led to some sort of different consequence

or circumstance in their reality, but there's more than one vulture across the multiverse. Yeah, yeah, but this one seems, it's, it, so the reason why my mind, my mind left to that because it seems as if this vulture was in jail, and it seemed as if Peter Parker put him there. Because the last time we see him at the end of far from home, he's in prison, talking to Scorpion or whatever.

And then it seems as if they're calling us back. But look, he could also have been another, maybe he fucking was doing corporate espionage or like he came to the same, the blip or the incident in New York, which would seem like an absolute point, right? It would seem like that's an absolute point. Maybe that said him in a life of crime in several different ways. Look at all this.

I'm, all right. One more thing. Crazy. It's so fun. One more thing for the multiversal aspect of it. All right. This is coming from the comic books. All right.

So we know that the villain in Thor, Love and Thunder. I was just going to bring this up. Gore. Yes. Is Gore the God butcher? He has the necro sword. Yes. Which comes from No, who is basically like the deity of all the symbiots.

So we know. I fucking love Gore the God butcher. Yeah. So, like, there is a connection in Thor now to the necrosword and the symbiotes. So part of me thinks that I'm just like, Figey's not dumb and he would have to think, like, guys, we have to get Venom over here. We have to get the symbiotes over here. And that's another connection to make me think that, like, the Venom's a part of the MCU and will be. Do you want to see Venom stay in the MCU?

So, so, because let's be honest now, there's one specific finite. world that's been established for Spider-Man in the MCU. And it is very tonally different than what we see from the Venom movies. And there's going to have to be some give and take story-wise and character-wise. Imagine Venom just running through Midtown tech. Right, exactly, right? So do you want to see Venom stay in the MCU? And if they have to fundamentally change Venom and or Spidey and or Venom and Spidey,

is it worth it? Have a lot of conflicted thoughts, you know? Same. All right, if I'm going to have the hot take right now, go for it. At first, when I saw the trailer, I was like, everybody. I was just like, oh, shit, it's happening. I'm excited.

I'm on cloud nine. The more I sat with it, I had a lot of what you were bringing up in the end. Is that, like, what makes the Venom film so special is not what makes the MCU special. That doesn't mean I don't think that they can combine them. I think you're going to have to shave off a little bit of what makes Venom special and those movies work. to fit in the MCU. Now, if I was thinking about it, how they could do it,

I would argue Tom Holland would make more sense in an upcoming Venom movie than shoehorning in Venom too much into the Spider-Man movies. I agree. I mean, look, I think it just depends. Like, something would have to change. These movies are, you put Spider-Man in these movies, the way Spider-Man, Spider-Man hasn't fought anybody like Venom, right?

He hasn't, and is Vindem and Spider-Man together who they go up, because remember, the relationship that Vindem and Spider-Man have is a lot more, there's a lot more acrimony between those two characters than there's been, like he's a, Vindemn's a Spider-Man villain for all intents and purposes. I mean, he goes on to become an anti-hero, but, you know, and they actually team up to fight carnage, you know, what I mean, which is how that all happened. So there are things that would have to be worked out,

and it's unclear what role Vennon would play, like MCU heroes don't eat their enemies. So you know what I mean? It's unclear how that would, yeah, like how that would go. Now, what are your thoughts? Remember when it seemed like the third MCU Spider-Man movie was going to fall apart, right? Homecoming was great. Far from home was great.

And then it's like, shit, this might not happen. And of course, as fans, there's this sense of dread and terror because we want the continuation of Spider-Man in the MCU, both the standalone movies and seeing Spider-Man and the team-ups. But there's also this like, and this has been true throughout the MCU's history, this ever-present, like, lurking rights share conundrum, right? There's a reason the MCU started with Iron Man in the first place. Part of it, focus groups and toys, right? What would kids buy as merch? And part of it was what characters were even available at the moment? So I raised that for a couple reasons. One, I have absolutely no idea if this is true. Let me say let me just state that

to be clear. But one of the things that I've seen pop up on the internet over the last couple days since Venom premiered that I think is interesting speculation. Maybe part of what emerged as a series of stumbling blocks back then was not just specific to the movie we now know of as no way home. Maybe it was all of the these other ramifications for right shares across the respective cinematic universes. Maybe they had more to figure out than we realized at the time. Why does that potentially matter? And frankly, moving forward, here's where we are, whether or not that's true in the past,

the rights share situation is incredibly complex. But the boiled down essence of it is that Spider-Man definitively, Tom Holland's Spider-Man is in the MCU for one more movie. That's all they've agreed to. That's it. It's no way home. Beyond that would be something they had to figure out again. Same thing for Tom Holland's contract, right?

So, again, you would hope that with the amount of money on the line they could figure out how to keep this going because the MCU knows how to make a great Spider-Man movie and how to deploy that character really effectively across other films. But Sony is trying to build out a competing standalone, essential Spider-Universe. of course that's the Spider-verse movies, right? We've got another one coming. The first one was phenomenal, one of the best superhero movies of all time. The Venom movies have been huge, huge profit drivers for Sony. Like, the first movie was a big hit.

This movie has had the biggest opening weekend of the pandemic. I'm sure you guys talked about that earlier. So Sony has no incentive to give Venom up. If putting Venom in the MCU draws a bigger audience and creates more crossover storytelling opportunities, then that's a win ultimately for both. studios. The Morbius movies are coming. The Craven movies are coming, which is huge when we talk about potential Sinister Six stories, right? Because we're all sitting here, I did a fucking two and a

half hour trailer breakdown of a three-minute trailer for No Way Home, parsing every single frame and clue because we're all so excited about it. We talked a lot about the Sinister Six and the characters that are either confirmed, heavily inferred, and then it's like, well, who could the sixth be? You know, we feel like, okay, Doc Ock is a lock. We see from the trailer, Goblin, Electro had been heavily reported clearly in the trailer. What other hints are there? Saman, Lizard. Well, who's the sixth?

Is it going to be Volture? Because you want a Holland Spider-Man existing villain, Scorpion maybe? Well, maybe it's Venom. To your point about like, okay, Venom's propped up as a hero, but would that make sense head-to-head with Spider-Man in a Spider-Man movie? Like, there are just so many threads here, and they can connect. But Sony basically has, the TLDR of this is like Sony has no incentive to give up its most profitable characters time and time again. If the MCU can help prop up what Sony is trying to build, then hopefully they will do that.

But that's why I feel like this is like, yes, we'll get Venom in No Way Home. But this does feel like it's as much about bringing Peter or another Spider-Man. Maybe this is about introducing Miles into live action, which would be awesome, back into the Sonyverse. See, I think the last point is the best point. I really do mean this. I think, to be honest with you, I think Tom Holland's Spider-Man at this point only worse than the MCU for me.

It's been, he's been too integral to MCU storylines. I don't think Marvel can afford to lose Spider-Man at this point, especially moving forward the way the Avengers are going to stack up. I know they don't have to complete total control over that. And I also don't think that as presently constituted, that version of Spider-Man works without the MCU. They've just put, he's just been too integrated into, I mean, obviously if the movies come out, we'll go see them.

You know what I mean? You know what I mean? But I also do kind of feel like, even with Tom Holland's Spider-Man and with how successful it's been in the MCU, if it were to revert back to a Sony, Sony standalone property, right? If he's back in that universe, you're essentially going to run into

some of the same problems that you had with Andrew Garfield, and that's the ability of those people to build out meaningful Spider-Man stories that don't involve stakes that are closely tied in with the largest scheme of the MCU, right? I think if you had a Miles Morales,

that might be different because you could build a brand-new mythology around a character that right now people are more invested into than ever, right? Of all the other characters that came out when Marvel did a rebrand and when they gave us new versions of characters we already knew, the most enduring one is Miles Morales. And I thought exactly what you just thought. There is some talk that maybe a woman featured in the No Way Home trailer was Miles

Morales's mother. If they somehow could build all of these characters what you're talking about and build Mao Morales into them, I think that's a great starting overpoint. I think bringing Tom Holland back into the Sony universe and tearing him away

from the MCU, it's just a tough ask for the audience right now. Charles, what do you feel about that? All right, so I'm going to have another Galaxy Brain take where the new Spider-Man video game is going to be Peter Parker, Miles versus Venom. So they're already priming people who love those games who obviously probably go watch the movies to be like, hey, like Miles is here.

He might fight Venom as well. I do think that like Sony is probably playing two games. They're like, if we can't reach an agreement with Marvel after this last movie, we have Venom. We've built it up where if they put Tom Holland in a Venom movie, or they share the movie, it's going to be successful. It'll do a billion dollars, whether we hate it or not. But they also can have their cake where they're like,

if Venom is in the MCU that gives us more bargaining power, because it's like now you have two of our heroes. And like, that I think is what Sony did not have before, which is like, hey, like, we don't care. Like, we're having Morvious. We have Craven. All of these people you're going to have to contend with. And like even if, like, think about it,

I don't care about the Craven. movie. I don't care about the Morbius movie. But if you tell me that they're both in the MCU, I'm like, God damn. All right, fine. I'm going to watch it. That's a great place for Sony. And if I'm Fagy, I'm a little bit like, I have even less control. All he had to worry about was the Spider-Man movies. Now he has to worry about every single villain that's ever been in the Spider-Man comics, which if I'm Figey is giving me a massive headache. But understand, there's also something else that we're not thinking about with Morbius. And like Morbius, Marvel has a Blade planned. Blade who really, it's just, it's, there's, there's a, there's a lot going on

that makes me think that what they really want to do is keep shaking hands on this for as long as they can. And look, and maybe Miles is the way that they can have their own income stream free of the MCU, which I think that's a fantastic point, but I don't feel like they want to kind of go back to square one and kind of reinvent the wheel on anything that they've already built. Mal, you were about to say something? No, I mean, I agree. Like, obviously we, you know, we don't know. And I think to your, the heart of the initial question of like, what do we even want here?

Do we want Venom in the MCU? It's like, it's of a piece with what you're saying about how Tom Holland, Spider-Man feels like he belongs inside of the framework of the MCU. You know, we associate him. And I know we all have like differing opinions on the success of this. But we associate him with, you know, not just his own films and his own story, but his mentor-mente relationship with Tony, like on and on the list goes, right? What do we associate Venom with? Just this like unapologetic sense of self for those movies. And so if you dilute that or change it, then they stop being those movies.

And that character stops being the character that has made it so utterly bizarre and successful through that, that oddity. So I think that the hope is that all of these characters and films can continue to exist in the spheres where they get to do the thing that they are trying to do and the thing that they want to do and that they don't have to kind of hedge their intention to like achieve some sense of harmony with another cinematic universe, but also that we don't have to say totally goodbye to these shares and team ups and crossovers because ultimately that's honestly like a court, a part of what's fun about being a comic book fan and a superhero movie. movie fan. I think the one other thing, though, we're talking about all these different characters. I think the point about widening the consideration set, not only for Fagie and Marvel and Disney, but also for Sony, just how many figures of current relevance are in play. Like, we can talk about Morbius and Craven and like, people love Craven. I love Craven. I'm excited that we're going to get Craven movies. We can talk about that all day. Nothing is Spider-Man. Nothing. Right? Like, Spider-Man is the most popular character. And so,

So the stakes of figuring out where Spider-Man is and the ripple effects of the number of things that connect to that, there are not a ton of other things. I mean, there are a handful, but only a handful of other things right now that probably have a chance to match the consequences of that. And that's part of the reason that No Way Home feels like such an event. Like, it's an amazing thing that No Way Home is going to feel as big and massive as it feels. And part of that is the unknown of whether it's the conclusion of a certain journey, right? But part of it is just because the fact that your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, that that character who's supposed to be this street-level figure connects to so many different figures and corners of relevance and of, like, impact and meaning to us as fans in two

cinematic universes is incredible. Like, when we head to the theaters to see this movie, which we will hopefully all be doing in person together, it will be, and I seriously mean this, one of the most meaningful movie-going experiences of our lives. Yeah. Here's a last detour that I actually just thought of because they tease Miles, they tease Miles in the original Tom Holland movie

with Donald Glover. Right. Do you think that there is any way that they were just like that? Because like, I trust Figey. There's a reason that they put it in there. Do you think there's any way that we get Miles in the third one and they bring Donald Glover back?

Yes. As Miles Morales? No, no, no. Donne Blinken. He was Prouler, yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's any? Just bring them back, period? Yeah, sure. I think so. Yeah. Like, because they've been teasing Miles for a while. I'm assuming Fikey did that for a reason.

Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe that was part of the whole bargaining thing with Sony. Hey, man, we'll give you something and then maybe Miles gets, who knows? I know what thing. There's one thing that makes comic book fans, comic movie fans, happier than anything else. You think it's powers. not powers, it's questions. What we want more than anything, we don't care what you can do. We don't care if you can warp time,

see into the past and the future, if you're indestructible, invulnerable, if you're telekinetic, if you have telepathy, we care about questions. What's you going to do with it? And right now, we don't know. I don't even know if Vennem works in the MCU.

I'm not sure if there's anything about Vennem that I want to see in the MCU. But I know that we're going to get a chance to see all these amazing characters play out. And it's funny. We talked about Craven, Morbius, all of those. You know what the first thing that hit me up when they were going to do movies

about all of those characters when they said they were going to do them? The first thing that I said was, man, those guys don't work without Spider-Man. Like, they just, you, like, Spider-Man is the through line to all of those characters. They just don't work without Spider-Man. At some point, Spider-Man,

has to be made available. And now we see that maybe he will. Okay. Look, that was fantastic discussion. Look, look how long we went on just a post-credit scene.

I love it. That's crazy. That's why they bring us together. I will just say, did you guys see the photo of Toby McGuire and Tom Holland hanging out at the Diplo concert? I did not see it.

There's my thing. Fikey is fighting for his life to keep this under wraps. And meanwhile, like, Toby McGuire's trying to get Tom Holland as part of the pussy posy. And I'm just like, come on, guys. Like, what the fuck are we doing?

Wow. Is the posse still a thing? Do they still hang out? I feel like they do. I feel like that's eternal. Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think because at one time, at one time they had Q-Tip in it.

Wait, Q-Tip was a part of the posse? Yeah, bro. No way. Yes, he was. No way. I promise you Q-Tip was in it. It was Q-Tip, Lucas Haas, Leo, Harmony Corinne,

and the magician. David Blaine? David Blaine was in it. Bunch of, boy, I bet they won't try it these days. Shout out Andrew Garfield. You should be invited. High stakes, pox games. Yeah.

Now, look, that was amazing. That is a wrap for us. Well, before we leave, I want to get the most hairbrain take you have on all of this stuff, now. Do you have something swimming around in that big brain that you think? feel like no one is talking about that no one has said that's just there. If you don't, you don't. But everyone has something. I'm reading all of these different guys. People are like, oh, here comes. Steve Rogers is coming. Like, do you have anything that you think that you think

is going to happen that nobody else is really discussing? Or that people might be discussing and you just want to repeat? I don't know if I, I don't know if I do only because of what you said earlier, which is people love questions the most and the speculation and the theorizing in the run-up to No Way Home is like reaching just a not unprecedented but still possibly historic fever pitch.

So like, for example, you know, one of the things that I'm excited to think about and keep talking about between now and mid-December is everything we saw with Dr. Strange in the trailer and why? Why a character who is sworn to protect and who is, you know, not infallible. Certainly his hubris is at the center of his character,

but, you know, I think pretty clear on his mission at that point, and ultimately a fairly sharp guy would agree to that in the first place. And the number of different vibes and aesthetic renderings that we see from Strange just in that three-minute trailer, like I feel increasingly sure that we're getting Dr. Strange variance before whatever happens with that spell that goes wrong. Like, I don't think that's our Dr. Strange from our MCU timeline who agrees to do that in the first place. So maybe it's, maybe it's Strange Supreme from What If?

Like, that's one of the things that I think would be really cool to connect what if in a meaningful way and in a quick way. And then, of course, it's like, well, what happens after Spider-Man, not only for everything we talked about today, but for the rest of the MCU, like the next Dr. Strange movie is not that far away. And so I can't shake Wanda either as a variable here because we're talking so much about Peter and so much about Dr. Strange. But I feel like between Wanda Vision and just everything that we've learned so far about chaos, magic, the continued presence of the mindstone, which I just think is honestly weird and can't shake. Like so much of the beginning of phase four is about moving on to a different iteration of storytelling. And we keep seeing these stones again. It's like, why?

And so I just can't shake the role that Wanda and Strange together in some capacity as foes or maybe hopefully allies will play. I guess the only other thing I'll throw out there because you mentioned like Venom can't eat people in the MCU. We see a shot of happy looking very distressed in the trailer. Maybe that's how my guy goes out. Just a little brain notch for Venom. Now, you're sure? You're sure Dr. Strange is in a scroll. That's my take that I'm sticking to.

I'm definitely not sure. We got it in the last movie. I'm starting to think scrolls shenanches might be. So the scroll would have to be capable of working the spell. I was supposed to say. Yeah, the scroll is going to have to be able to cast a spell. Now, I'll be it working the spell badly. Yeah, like it's not like he's doing magic very well in that trailer.

So many questions, questions, questions, questions. That is a wrap for us. Thank you so much, Lord Mallory, for joining us today. It's amazing. Delight to be here with you. Now Wednesday, you have to join us for the midnight boys because we have the what-if finale. And let me tell you something. Before that, what-if finale, do what makes you happy.

I'm telling you, get out there, get some exercise, get some sun, you know, talk to your mom. Because the roller coaster emotional ride of what-if is being crazy. I watched What-if again with Kalika a couple of days ago. She hadn't seen it yet. And she was getting emotional for the watcher. Like her heart was going out to the watcher. Watch it again. The more you see the watcher, the watcher is so emotional.

It's right there. It's there. It's there. The watcher was so down for us. He just wants the best for us. The watcher's like our multiversal mom. He just wants us to make the right decisions. But he's not going to stand there in our way if we make the wrong ones.

And we're going to have, we're going to recast the 2012 Avengers. Please come and watch this so that Charles can say some. crazy stuff. All right. We're going to recast the 2012 Avengers movie and you're going to get some crazy stuff. Charles is going to say something like Andy Griffith

as Nick Fury. I know it's going to be off the wall because I know. Actually, I do have faith in you. I have faith in you to do exactly what I know you're going to do with some crazy shit. Friday, join Mal for a deep dive into the what if finale. I feel like the what if finale is going to answer

some questions. We're going to leave us with some capital Q questions as well. I really do feel like, oh yeah. Our socials are reverse on Facebook, IG, Twitter, join and send us ideas and thoughts. Here's the thing, you can't leave us any on IG today because the son of a bitch thing won't work. All right, Facebook is down, IG is down.

There are all kinds of conspiracy theories. We're going to hit on that because who, maybe who knows? Maybe Natasha Romanov leaked all of Shields Intel to Facebook and the government had to shut the whole site down. Who knows what happens? But I want to say thank you to our, A guest, of course, Miles Surrey and Mallory Rubin. Thank you.

Miles was a guest. Mallory is one of the Midnight Boys. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Miles is a guest. Like, Mallory is the dawn of the Midnight Mafia.

You know what I'm saying? The dawn of the midnight. It's like, to be honest with you. House of Midnight. We're family. The Midnight Boys is kind of like the Avengers. I want you guys to go on your Internet right now and look how many members the Avengers of that.

There's a lot of Avengers. There's a lot of Avengers. midnight boys. All right. Thanks so much to our producers. Steve Alman, Jomi, mad ass Jomey Adenoron. Jomey, is there anything else you want to say about Vennam movie before we go? No, you know, I would love to say some. And this is actually really, really interesting. I like how we, you know, did all this. And nobody mentioned how Shriek died like Anasto de la Cruz and Coco. He had a bell fall on her. I love that movie. Coco has an absolute Alzheimer. Have you been sitting on that for a while, Joe?

Joe, John Me. It was really the first thing I noticed in the movie when she died. I was like, I don't think she died. I turned to Arjun and I was like, I don't think Shriek died. I think Shrieks under that bell, by the way. Oh, for real? In a comic movie, when they want somebody to die, they show you their death. If they leave it at all up for debate, they didn't die.

Also, when they hit on one thing, people are going to talk about it, what happened to the cops' eyes at that? the end of the movie, they went blue. That is actually another symbiate called Toxin. So they might be teasing to something. If that universe were going to stop, I'll say this before we go. There's no way they would tease to a new character.

So something is going to happen where that universe is going to stay intact, in my opinion. All right. Hashtack Save Jome. Guy make sure we save Jomey on socials. Additional production from Arjuna, Ramgapal, and of course, always better when he's not seen, when he's not heard.

Producer Teelemy. Charles take us out Venom let there be carnage was good watching what if makes us sad hashtag save Jomi but damn man why are you so mad we are out Miles okay so what we're going to do real quick

we're going to break real quick we're not we're going to break from the normal floor of the podcast what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to pit two people against one another I want a real quick Steve do we have time for this can we have two minutes of this? I give you two minutes. Two minutes of this.

Miles versus Jomey. Wild the movie's awesome. Wild the movie sucks. We're going to hear from Miles first. Jomi, you come right after Miles. Miles, you got one minute go. It seems like for someone like Jomey, the selling point of this movie is the connection to the MCU

in the post-credit scene. And there's nothing wrong with being excited about that. But I go to movies for the actual films, not the little teasers at the end of it because that's just a marketing tool. Superhero movies don't have to be homogenous. This doesn't have the tone of the MCU. It's kind of like the most expensive,

weirdest B movie ever made. And that's fine. The MCU can rake in billions of dollars. It obviously has a lot of acclaim and a lot of fans. Just let Venom continue to be the weird little kid in the corner. I think superhero movies are objectively silly and it's nice that Venom embraces that and refuses to take itself seriously.

and, you know, it's the MCU's loss if some fans don't like Venom's energy versus what the MCU brings. Interesting. That's all the time I need. Yeah, John me go. So my thing with movie is not that, you know, I didn't like, you know, carnage or I didn't like, you know,

the Eddie Brock Venom love story. I enjoyed a good portion of the film's, you know, happenings. It's just not a good film. Just like, let's be real. a lot of stuff does connect. Oh, Eddie's back on top. What does that mean? Like, what are we doing here?

Oh, don't drop my teeth. Like, it's just like, it doesn't connect as an actual film. I'm not really worried about, uh, no, the MCU. Like, you know what I'm saying? I enjoy, you know, movies that aren't great. You know what I'm saying? I think the thing is we need to stop conflating. Oh, I like this movie and it's good.

I like the movie. I just don't think it's good. That's my entire take. It's not a good movie. I liked it. I enjoyed the film, I enjoyed the post-credit scene, I enjoyed a lot of it. It's just not a good movie. It's my time.

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