The Ringer-Verse - ‘What If…?’ Episode 4 Instant Reactions and the Ultimate Spider-Man Debate | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

Van and Charles are joined by Mallory Rubin to discuss the latest episode of Marvel's ‘What If...?’ and share their thoughts on Doctor Strange’s new journey (04:52). Then they take part in the return of Midnight Court to debate who the best live-action Spider-Man is: Tobey Maguire or Tom Holland (33:19)? Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Guest: Mallory Rubin Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Twice a week, Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay dissect the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports on their show, Higher Learning. They discuss the most important and timely conversations while also frequently inviting guests on the podcast and occasionally debating each other. Check out Higher Learning on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremfaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Welcome into the Ringerverse. This is of course the Ringer's Nexus podcast's feed for all things, Phantom. We are Steve, six Steve. Jomey the Explaner at dinner on. Fan Lathen, host of higher learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay.

Sick one himself. He's even sicker than Steve. Coke baby Chuck, the host of the Ringer Music Show. And we are of the Midnight Boys. Okay, today we are joined. We're joined by, let's face it. We're joined by the lady of the house. we're joined by the lady of house ringerverse we need a sigil

this is a very special episode of course we are back in the house of midnight because we are joined by Mallory Rubin from the House of Mal. She's going to join us on some mash-up stuff today. How are you doing, ma'am? What a pleasure to be here with you. You guys promised me creme brule. Yeah, there it is. Now look, today we're getting into two things.

number one, we're going to, of course, discuss episode four of what if, which was dark. Okay. It went places. It emotionally went places. Yeah. We're going to discuss episode four of what if. But we're also going to do a very, very special edition of Midnight Court, you guys. This is going to be hotly contested.

We're doing Spidey versus Spidey. Well, Spider-Man versus Spider-Boy. Let's be. Whoa, whoa, whoa, save it. Save it. Put your claws down. All right. We're doing Spidey versus Spidey.

We, of course, in midnight court, Charles and I are taking Toby McGuire Spider-Man, and we are going to debate his merits up against Jomey and Mal who are riding with Tom Holland here, Mal. You're riding with Tom Holland. On the side of truth. Whoa. Whoa. Wow. Yikes.

Whoa. Wow. It's tough. Tough. All right, programming reminders. Changing up this week a little bit. Friday, a very special episode of The Midnight Boys where me and Charles are going to talk about Shang Shi.

Shang Shi is a movie that we all went together to see as an L.A. crew at a screening. And then we were subsequently embarrassed by Mallory's shoe game, everybody else. It was like everyone looked at Mal's shoe game and said, hello, and then everybody else was like, oh, what are those? By the way, I just have people know.

The shoes that I was wearing, I just had people know that they were, custom new balance is designed by Salehi Benbury, okay? The lead designer at Versace. All right, I went to a room where Saléi had me come out and pick up the shoes and I saw tags on the boxes

and those tags were like Bella Hadid, you know, Kanye West, all of these different people that got those shoes, okay? I saw Young Jeezy's shoe size. Won't repeat it. Won't repeat it. Just let you guys know. I was like, damn, little guy.

That's all I'm saying. Damn. Well, like, well, like, no, not like little. I'm just saying, it's a small feat, Charles. Relax. And the following Tuesday, Mal, you're going to give us a deep dive into Shung Shih. That's right. So let me ask you this, Mal, because we went to the screen there.

Are you going to go back and see it again? I am. Yeah. I'm going to go back this weekend, I think. Take it in a second time. You know, I always like to visit the text and then revisit the text. It's one of the challenges, but also the thrills, dare I say, of being here with you guys today to talk about what if, you know, chattled my inner midnight boy last night to watch it at midnight. And now we're here this morning.

It's all so fresh processing it in real time. I don't know how you guys do it. It's hard. Oh, we know how we do it with mixed results. That's the answer to the question of how we do it, man. With courage and conviction. Right. Make sure you follow Ringerverse on social media.

That is Facebook. Facebook group. Love you guys at the Facebook group. I know you love us too. Twitter and Instagram. Now, we are ready to do this. It's time to jump into episode four of what if. This is an instant reaction podcast,

but we still got to do it because you guys will get mad if we don't. And it's in the ringer bylaws. So go ahead and run the spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about the episode. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. I was lurking over on the Reddit page a little bit, and I heard some people say that they don't like the fact

that I'm so hard on the Facebook page. I don't like the fact that I'm so hard on people with the spoiler warning thing. I got news for you guys, can it? This is an instant reaction podcast. I don't understand how you think that we're not going to spoil. Of course we're going to spoil. We got to talk about the episodes.

It's the purpose of being here. So just can it. Can it. Put it in the can. I like this energy. Woo! Yeah, okay. Okay.

Episode four, what if episode four, Dr. Strange loses his heart instead of his hands. All right. The return of Benedict Cumberbatch, reprising his role as Dr. Stephen Strange. Mal, we're going to start with you. Oh, boy. Okay.

What were your thoughts on Benedict Cumberbatch's performance? in this. Specifically on his performance, not on the episode. We're starting with the performance. Okay. We'll start with the performance, yeah. Good.

I was pro. I was a fan. I thought it was a nice encapsulation, actually, of what this broader phase of the MCU will afford all of the performers and us as viewers, which is variance among the characters. Like, obviously all of us talked about this a lot in the wake of the Loki finale and getting to meet He Who Remains and talking about all the different. ways that Kang might manifest across MCU stories to come, and thus all of the different

performances we might get from Jonathan Majors, which I cannot wait for. Within this half hour, 36 minutes, credits included, of what if we got to see two versions of Dr. Strange, which means we got to see two performances from Benedict Cumberbatch, and both of those were different from the one that we are accustomed to seeing in the MCU to date from the live action films. So I enjoyed the variance, the change in pace, energy, thought he, as always, had that, you know, trademark blend of wit, that like acerbic energy and then the heart when you need it. And as much as it was immersive in terms of his performance in the moment and, you know, caused us to, I think, look back and think about the performances before that. It also makes

you think about the future. Like how many versions of a Benedict Cumberbatch, Dr. Schumannes, Strange might we get in on the wake of the no way home trailer, the next Spider-Man movie, let alone the next Doctor Strange movie. So I'm just hyped for this era of MCU performances where we get to see so many things from the actors who were bringing these characters to life. I was a fan of it. How about you guys? I have one question for you, Mal.

Before we move on, what does the cervix mean? Don't bring that in here. Don't bring that in here, ma'am. Okay. The IQ of the Midnight Boys that's like, jumped so hot. Like what's, like, what's, come on. Charles, your thoughts.

And then I'm gonna get, then I hope we can all share our overall thoughts on the episode, but your thoughts on our Biddy Cumberbatch specifically. I like to. I think it helps this show when it's the actual actors who voice the characters, because then it's more believable. I think with

some of my complaints from the other episodes where, like, you don't know. Like, sometimes I'm just like, that, the voice sounds a little bit off. That doesn't sound like the character. So it's really, really nice to like even though he was playing a different doctor strange when i was listening to it it was like more believable it felt a little bit closer to the movie which made me a little bit more emotionally invested in what was um unfolding so i got to give it up to benedick he did his he did his

thing on this one so for me i like that i tell you why because i'm a sucker for good guy evil guy same guy when i was when i was a kid that was first driven home to me in a little known masterpiece called Superman 3, which was also starring Richard Pryor. Remember when Superman, he went rogue in that movie? And he had like a dirty costume, goes to the bar. He's flicking the peanuts and he's flicking them. But they're like bullets, you know what I mean? And they're shattering stuff.

And then Superman has to go fight himself and then he turns back clean again. It's good. I love it whenever somebody is going up against themselves. Because we put so much stock into a hero and all the things that a hero can do that they can overcome everything. And the central question in heroism is can they overcome themselves? And that's one of the essential questions

that this episode asks. So I was really into that. Now, this episode itself, I feel like what if, so this is what I feel like with what if. I feel like what if is people are still eating around the corners of the peanut butter jelly sandwich with what if.

They're still, there's still nibbling to see if they're going to like what's in the middle. I thought this was a fantastic episode. Dark, very, very weighty for something animated and something Marvel, but a very good episode. But I was wondering as I was watching it, would the fans like it?

Was it going to be something that the people like? Mao, what did you think of the episode as a whole? Okay, so... Here we go. Wow, the hot takes are coming. Well, let me start by saying that I actually ended up enjoying the episode quite a bit and thought that it was pretty potent. I will circle back momentarily to why and to what I enjoyed about it.

But I just have to get this out of the way. I have to say this. I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt this way. Not a fan of bringing Christine back only to kill her time. and time and time again. Yes, the ending is quite powerful. And I think the core theme and question that this episode asks us to confront is quite gripping. You know, where can grief lead you? What do you do? What choices can you justify to yourself and try to justify to other people when you are just overcome by despair and longing.

I think that is like an eternal theme and one I'm often interested in examining in stories. So that's not my issue. But one of the things that I love about Dr. Strange's origin story inside of the MCU to this point, and of course I understand and concede that the premise of what if is to give us alternate versions, when you take away his hands

and you ask that character to confront his hubris and his arrogance and the misguided emphasis that he placed on the different aspects of his life. And he ultimately is able to find through the mystic arts and through his own redemption arc the value of the relationships that he has and the people that he loves, that is, I think, just more interesting and more fulfilling as an arc than to start with, well, what if we fringed another woman inside of a comic book story? I just, I'm honestly surprised that they did that. So that was not something that I enjoyed. And when I realized that that was going to be the premise, I was kind of bummed by that. Wait, Matt, really quick for the audience,

could you maybe briefly describe what, like, woman in the fridge is in comic books? Because it's something that, like, happens in TV and movies, but it's specifically something that, like, people have pushed against for years in comic book storytelling. Yeah, I guess the most boiled down essence of it is a, woman being killed off, harmed in some way, to motivate the male characters, right? That's the essence of the idea. And, you know, as you're noting, Charles, this is, like,

central to much of comics history and has been present in many modern superhero adaptations and films. But that was what surprised me about it is I think that, like, to your point, there is this heightened awareness now in a discussion and active dialogue about how to move beyond that. And I just thought it was a strong. strange choice to make that the impetus for this what if. Now, all that said, and I want to hear what you guys think of that, I did overall really enjoy the episode because I thought that Van, to your point earlier, this like your own worst enemy is yourself, you know, not only man versus man and man versus nature, but man versus self-propulsive force of the episode was really engaging.

and I think, again, primes us for probably like what is going to unfurl across the MCU at large here. This episode of the four that we have gotten from the what if season one so far felt far in a way like the one that had the biggest stakes for the stories to come, whether it was the conversation that Strange had with the watcher at the end, whether it was the discussion of absolute points and how we think about split timelines or timelines in general. The idea that multiple versions of one character can exist inside of the same timeline, how they interact with each other, of that feels like it has like real, real stakes for what's to come. And the, yes. And I will say, like, I will confess that despite everything I just said, in the final closing scene of the episode, when Strange is sitting there inside of this crystallized embodiment of the universe that he and his myopia have destroyed, and Christine, the person he was fighting to save,

is horrified by what he has become. And then he, he, loses her anyway, I thought that was quite effective and really well done. So for me, it's a balance of pros and cons across the episode. I'm starting to realize that with what if, this is like an experiment. Like, no, I'm not, this isn't actually negative. This is like an experiment in like Marvel, like the Overton window, like seeing how far Marvel can push these concepts. It almost felt like a primer for what we're going to get in terms of like when the, when the chosen one is coming down, like explaining. time even more. When you add that with Loki and the new Spider-Man trailer, what if truly does seem

like them saying to super fans like us, like, yo, you're going to have to expand your mind a little bit. You're going to have to like go with this on this journey. We are going to get weird. And I share a lot of the same sentiments with Mal about the things I didn't like about the episode. But the one thing I think that this did is that my one knock against the original Dr. Strange movie is that I think it could have been weirder. I think it could have been more like the comic books. The comic books are like very strange and very horror filled and just like coming out of a psychedelic movement in comics. And when we see the evil Doctor Strange like eating all of these. That was amazing. Yeah. This is what I want in the movie. Like this is what I want. Creatures. Yeah.

And when he sees the bug and he like takes the cave, he's like, nah, not that one. I puts it down. I'm like, yeah, this is the, this is the weird energy I want from the next Dr. Strange. the multiverse of madness. Well, you're going to get it. I guarantee you that multiverse of madness would be one of the weirder experiences that you ever have sitting in the movie theater. But I'll tell you this, you can't get super weird with the origin story

because you got to loop in the casuals, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to feed them, you know. It's kind of like I do Bozeman. Hey, little guy. And before you know it, he's eating all new wet food. He's like, I love this. Like, what do you do to me? I tricked you, Boseman.

I changed you. But so look, for me, this is the way I looked at the episode of itself. So, once again, I really enjoyed it. I'm enjoying what if. I think that these what ifs are different than some of the other what ifs that I'm into. I'm into what ifs that follow a very, you know, I always talk about, what if Spider-Man had the power cosmic. That was my favorite what-if as a kid.

It was just like, all right, give Spider-Man all these crazy powers and see what happens. these would have seemed to be a little bit more cerebral because really what they're doing is what if it is a MCU cheat code to get us into some different situations and expand the multiversal universe, you know, and introduce some concepts that might have been tough to do in live action, like, or maybe they don't have time or maybe they only even have the bandwidth to introduce some of these things in live action. As far as like the arc of Stephen Strange in this himself, I'm always interested in. And especially in comic books, and the idea of you being able to control your own destiny and your destiny being plied out for you because that is consistently a theme that comic book characters are running up against, even in Hickman's New Avengers, right? They're trying and trying and trying to stop the encourages. They're trying to stop the encourages.

They're trying to stop the encourages until they learn that they're going to happen. So when you learn it's something that's going to happen, it's not about being a hero, it's about being a human. And it's about figuring out how you pick the pieces up in reaction to that. Because that's what we have to do, right? As human beings, we can be heroes sometimes, but mostly what we do is we figure out the best way to pick up the pieces and keep going. And in this episode, that's the central theme of it. And I think that's a central thing for heroes themselves. Okay, a hero is somebody who believes I can change anything.

I can stop anything. You know, the Avengers went back in time and got all of the stones to save half the galaxy. They pulled off a pretty impressive trick. But what happens when you can't and you have to accept it? Where is your heroism then? Then your heroism is in not doing something. And watching strange kind of go through that whole journey. And I can completely, the damage is the damage is.

the stress thing. That just gets annoying because after a while you start to hate the character. You're like, yo, stop. Somewhere my little cousin

is turning into black goo and stop it. You're Dr. Strange. Like, like, relax. So I understand. I understand that. But I was,

I was happy to see it get weird. I was happy to see Stephen Strange on a different journey. And I was happy to see those themes explore as well. Van, I'm glad that you said that about that core theme.

And I feel the same way. The choice versus destiny dynamic, examining free will for the central figures in these stories, that's my single favorite theme to talk about. And my single favorite theme in any of these stories. I also, let me say this. I love love. You know, I love love. So I'm reconciling that with the Christine element.

And it's almost like I wish that we had gotten those through lines and thematic examinations with just any other impotent. But you're right that this episode did really put at the four that question. And I think that that has been central to where we are in phase four right now. Like that was the driving question across Loki. You know, and that was the thing that Loki was pushing against and challenging and Sylvie too, this idea that somebody else, whether it's he who remains in the sacred timeline or anyone, would dare to tell you that the, the course of your life had been had been set, that you are just a puppet in somebody else's puppet show, the MCU, and I think many fantasy stories that we gravitate toward ultimately want our characters to rebel against that idea, right? Because that's human nature. That was one of the things that was really interesting and successful inside of this episode, showing how that can go wrong, because it can't just be a binary in these stories where one course of action is always good,

or always evil. There has to be room for nuance and different outcomes in between. This episode made me think so, so much of dark. Have either of you guys watched Dark? The Netflix Time Travel Show? So I won't spoil Dark for listeners.

I will encourage everyone to check it out. If you haven't, that is a, that requires active viewing. I will say that. That is intense and complex, but really, really good. Like, I play in the same league as like the devs. like when I was watching devs

like I had to take notes after a while I'm like you when you sit down and you watch that shit you have to really commit yes because it's like the not just the philosophical exercise of thinking about your life as a tram line to use devs

as the example there but also to actually think about the nature of quantum mechanics right which is speaking of quantum mechanics Joe Me the Explanator could jump in the one question I had because like we're getting a lot of rules for time travel

the thing that like I think is the most famous example of this is like an infinity war and end game. The whole thing is the crux of that is like Dr. Strange looking through all the different futures and timelines for that one shot that they have to save everything. And the whole time I was watching this,

I was just like, couldn't our Dr. Strange look at every single timeline of how this unfolds and realizes that he's like going to destroy his universe? We know he has that ability. But that was I thought actually what was interesting. about it was that, because you're right. Like, it wasn't a question ultimately inside of this episode of his power set or like his aptitude or ability. It was an examination of how the

relationships in your life ultimately leads you down certain paths. And I thought that like the paradox conversation was an interesting, an interesting bit of evidence in terms of what you're supporting. Like, Dr. Strange is smart and aware enough to say to the ancient one, I'm creating a paradox. He's aware of the stakes of what he is attempting to do. But because he is just guided in full by his own yearning, he's not stopping to think, well, wait. Okay, absolute point. Am I in? What is the role of a bootstrap paradox inside of my existence? And if we're talking about timelines and the nature of time and causal loops and how one event informs, not only informs another, but has to, then what we want out of Dr. Strange, because we view him

as the supreme, not only sorcerer, but intellect, is to be able to stop and say, well, what are the other, what are other absolute points? And what are the consequences, really, of trying to fuck with something that's sacred. But then, like, much like the sacred timeline chattering, you have these offshoots, because one of the impulses is to say, well, someone's literally saying that to him in this episode, right? that is what the ancient one is describing to him. And he doesn't care. It's only when he sees the cost of it unfolding in front of him that he, and he realizes it's too late.

But you also then have to balance, again, it's just emotion versus magic. And like to, you know, to go back to like Thor and Jane Foster and quoting Arthur C. Clark and like science and magic and how do all of these things inside of the MCU inform each other in the successful tellings of any of these tales, the emotion is going to be the thing that that drives us to invest more so than the mythology, but they have to be inextricable and move forward on a parallel course to really work, I think. I have a couple of questions I want to ask you guys. There's a tentacle being that came out. Once again. It looked like the same tentacle being from the Captain Carter situation. Exactly. I said here on this podcast, that was Schumer

The most powerful interdimensional beings in the entire Marvel comics universe. I was rebuffed. I was slammed on my head for thinking that it wasn't Schumeligorth. We never saw an eye. Shumogorth has a very distinct eye in the middle. We're going to get to know Schumelgoth. He's going to be the main antagonist in multiverse of madness. Well, not the main antagonist, but an antagonist.

Because the main antagonist in multivers of madness as far as what we know. No, looks to be, boom, Wanda Maximum. So we're not quite sure. That's what people are saying. We don't know. We don't know who's going to be the main antagonist. Okay. What's that, Schumelagoor?

It was like the same tentacle being. By the way, the fact that you could gain so much power from even taking three half tentacles from that being, which I don't know that you could cut a tentacle that still take the power of the tentacle. That's interesting. And Schumegorth is such an O.P. powerful Marvel character.

it seems to point to the fact that it is. And also the fact that it was in two episodes of What If, it seems to be getting us ready for a live action debut of the character. I think it's him. Absolutely. Absolutely. The return, that's not an accident. Nobody would put a random octopus monster in multiple episodes of what if

if it did not have some type of significance for not only this show, but further. So it's definitely like, yeah. Okay. Last thing we'll touch on. The conflict with the watcher was something that was very fascinated. Of course, if you guys are familiar with the watcher,

the watcher just sits up there and checks it out. Keeps a tap. You know how if you guys ever had like frat meetings or meetings, somebody would keep the minutes and you put somebody in the corner, hey, bro, keep the minutes. The watcher basically keeps the minutes for the entire multiverse or whatever. But the watcher was compelled in this one to almost jump in. The watcher wanted to get in Jeffrey.

right, it's like, this motherfucker is doing too much. You know, he wants to, he wants to get involved. It's the first time we see the, it's acknowledged that the watcher can do something in another timeline of the universe, but he chooses not to. And the ending conflict with the watcher, what do you think this means, not just for the future of what if, but maybe for the future of the MCU, might we see the watcher in action in some point? And the watcher has a conscience.

Who knew? I thought the watcher was like one of those beings that is single minded and dedicated because he is created for one function. But in the comic books, he does have like that is kind of like the growth of him of getting a conscious and feeling things and not just being a passive observer. So this was the first episode where I was just like, oh, like this is very interesting instead of him just being a mechanic to get the story functioning and being like a narrator, this is a character that's like growing emotions

and seeing all these tragedies unfold and that I think gives him more heft if they want to bring him in to a live action setting. Yeah, it definitely felt like a declaration of intent in that way. You know, like to Charles' point about the comics canon and the maturation of not only realizing that interfering has merit but often has necessity, right? And like the back and forth, the conversation was really interesting,

but that last bit from the watcher, like, honestly, if I could fix this, if I could punish you instead, I would, but I can't interfere. You feel the, like, the grappling, the pole, right? You more than anyone else should understand that meddling with time and events only leads to more destruction. I liked the choice to have this conversation inside of that episode because of that parallel. Like, of course, the practitioners of the mystic arts are quite involved, often. They're not, they're not just hanging out, observing, like, the watchers. But there is this sacred mission to preserve and protect. And that was an interesting comp to make.

It definitely felt like that conversation, that exchange was just a way to say, this is inevitable. It's only a question of when we'll see a more active hand. Can I ask you guys one question? Oh, please. Go now. The hell?

The color of the little sphere that the universe shrinks to at the end, it looked like a purple gemstone. And I always like to try. track, you know, many fans share this passion, the color-coded magic inside of the MCU and like what we're supposed to associate certain choices with. And purple is just a fascinating one there because it literally just looked almost like the power stone, first of all, looked like a purple gemstone. But then also, who else do we associate purple with right now

very, very strongly? Kang, Agatha? Like, do you think that that was deliberate to make us think about another connection and how something like that might manifest in the future? I don't know. I know that when you saw his magic turn from the gold to the red, you're okay, so he's using chaos magic now. He's like he's the dark side of the force.

The dark side is difficult. Unnatural. Unnatural. Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. I would do what I must. he's standing there. As he's standing there with this.

You will try. Just, like, recite every word of the Red of the Sith right now off the top of our heads. I would love that. I don't know. I don't know. I was, I was, I haven't written down here. Like, color-coded themes here.

I haven't written down. But purple is when I hadn't thought of. Purple is, it's Agatha, it's King. Everything seems to be pointing to King. And I was almost wondering. Like, when he's locked in that, is that the type of thing that I was thinking, did he just create a little mini power stone? Or I was just wondering what happened and what it meant, but I really, I really have no answers. I don't have any answers for you.

This is the Instagram podcast, Matt. What do you think? What do you think, Charles? Oh, man, I had the same thoughts. I'm like, wait, does a universe, does a dying universe make a power stone? Well, no, like they're like. Yeah, that's why I really thought that. I was like, does a dying universe turn into an infinity stone?

But we know that it's actually the big bang that sent the infinity stones out there. But I was like, does a die universe mean that this becomes an infinity stone and a new universe? I don't know. It was interesting. All right, guys, I might, I'm going to be real. I think we're going galaxy rain with it. I think we're just trying. There's just not much that.

It's to distract from our own grief because we lost the cloak of levitation in this one. That was painful. Burned up. Like, Jesus Christ. Dr. Strange, this was actually character moment, character assassination. Dr. Strange didn't seem sad at all. He wasn't like, oh, my God. He wasn't like, oh, my gosh.

They made the cloak of levitation a pet. Yes. And the dude and Strange Supreme burned it up. And Dr. Strange didn't, his face didn't even go. I was expecting him to cut back to his face and for him to go, oh. He didn't even fucking care at all. Yeah. The cold of levitation is a cute little furry bee.

Anyway. Anyway, good question. And we'll end that right there. What if is great, though, it's, it's, you know, I don't know if this one was for the kitties. You know, I'll be honest with you. I'm not sure if this one was for the kitties. Like, this one, the person died again and again and the end that was fucking violence.

There was a robbing. There was like a, yeah, I'm going to be honest. There's going to be a bunch of like five and six year olds. down to watch you and then he'll be like, Daddy, what's death? Yeah, like, I don't know if this one was for the kids. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping.

Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. It's time for what everybody's been waiting for now. It's time to get into it. I am going to fall back now because it's time to turn it over to the judge. This week on Midnight Court, Van Lathen and Charles Holmes claimed that the definitive portrayal of Spider-Man goes to Toby McGuire. while Mallory Rubin and Jomey claim that Tom Holland is the superior Spider-Man.

Honorable Judge Steve Allman, presiding. All right, this is the case of McGuire v. Holland. Mr. Lathen and Mr. Holmes, you will have the beginning statements for opening arguments. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen of the court. Thank you to illustrious opposing counsel. Thank you to my co-counsel, Charles Holmes. Yes.

A pew-pue. Spider-Man is the character that since the inception of the character has really embodied what the Marvel universe is all about. Spider-Man is the prodigal son, if you will, of the Marvel universe. He is the A-number-1, the torchbear of the flag holder. Why would you say that this is true of Spider-Man? Because of four tenets that make Spider-Man who he is. There are four things that have captivated the audience, that have captivated generation and generations of Spider-Man fans

that make Spider-Man who he is. What we intend to prove today is that in the Tom Holland version of Spider-Man, these tenets of Spider-Man have been abandoned. So what we intend to prove, as a defense, as a prosecutor, today is that Tom Holland cannot be the superior Spider-Man because in essence

Tom Holland isn't even playing Spider-Man. You might ask yourself what are the four tenets of Spider-Man? A character that was introduced to us in the 60s. A character that rode with us

through the money-hungry 80s, through the turbulent 70s, through the 90s where we thought things were good. Turned out they weren't. Okay. Housing crisis was coming. A little bit of a bubble. Boom. Gonna explode.

Been up all through us till 2002 when a movie came out and pulled in our heartstring, Spider-Man won that gave us the Spider-Man we had been waiting for. But before we get to that, let's discuss. Let's discuss what makes up the four tenets of Spider-Man. Number one is Independence. Spider-Man is a character that since the death of his mentor, Uncle Ben, all right the man in his life he has had to go his own way he has had to balance a job

at the paper the Daily Bugle which is not some weird Alex Jones internet concoction what the Daily Bugle is is a newspaper and that is very central to how Spider-Man does his thing okay he's had to juggle that with love affairs

is Quint Stacey, Mayor Jane Watson. He's had to juggle that with financial problems. He has to juggle that with life. And he's had to do it on his own. He's had to do it with no help. He's had to do it without billionaire benefactors, without the lackeys of those billionaire benefactors. Without everybody jumping into his business,

he's had to figure it out. And that, more than anything, is what makes Spider-Man a hero, The fact that he's figured out how to rely on himself and go deep into who he is to make these things happen for himself. Number two, intelligence and ingenuity. Spider-Man's a genius. Peter Parker is a boy genius. Peter Parker creates his suit.

Peter Parker creates his web slingers. Peter Parker creates the web solution. Makes it all himself. that adds to the character of Spider-Man. I'll have you remember something. I'll have you remember that during the original Spider-Man, there was a movement to have organic web shooters, to have the web shooters come out of the actual body of Peter Parker.

He's like a mutant spider. Didn't go through. You know why? because it was an affront. The fans revolted. No organic web shooters. I signed the petition. Organic web shooters was an affront

to the genius of Peter Parker because he created his own web shooters. I would tell you right now that in these movies, the genius of Peter Parker is a non-factor. Don't even talk about it. What he's been gifted from Stark Industries? Who hacks the suit?

Ned! The guy in the chair! Not even Peter! They took that away from him. Number three, responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. I would have you believe that the Spider-Man of Tom Holland is reckless. He's a reckless young punk that continues to get in his own way.

He almost kills people on a boat. It was almost a real-life Staten Island ferry that went down because he's reckless and irresponsible. Then what does he do? He gives the glasses to Mysterio. What? Which, to be honest with you, breaks several rules.

Number one, he's stupid, not intelligent, by giving him the glasses. Number two, he's once again somebody's lackey. They made him the lackey of the villain. And then number three, he's irresponsible to turn over that type of tech to some guy. Number four. and maybe the most egregious.

If I were to tell you one thing right now that separates Spider-Man, one of his greatest powers, separate Spider-Man from everybody else, it would be the Spidey Sense, duh, the Spidey Sense, the single thing that allows Peter Parker to get out of danger,

to notice danger, to be one step ahead of the bad guys in any situation. I would argue to you that in this particular run, in these two movies, the Spidey Sense has been greatly depowered almost to a point where it's barely used.

We're going through things and deciphering where the Spitey Sense is. Yeah, he's on a bus. The hair stands up on the back of his arm. Great Spitey Sense. Anybody can see that there's a goddamn alien ship in the sky. That's not the Spitey Sense I'm talking about. The Spitey Sense I'm talking about is,

hey, look around. Something's not right. I need to jump into it. Hey, I'm here. I need to figure out that the Spidey Sense, has the Spidey Sense been in any way a powerful tool of Peter Parker slash Spider-Man during these two movies?

I'm going to say no. We've had to look into scenes and go, oh, he can do that because of the Spitey Sense. Four tenants, O'4, Tom Holland. I'll now turn it over to Opposing Counsel. Opposing counsel has the floor, Mallory Rubin and Joe Me a dinneron. Judge, jury, fellow counsel, we will be responding to all of those points and some of those errors later on.

But we will begin by arguing our case and asking, why do we love Spider-Man? Why do we gravitate toward the wall crawler as fully as we do? We see ourselves in him. Spider-Man stories are about many things, but the through line is change. The way our bodies change. The way our abilities change. The way our desires change. The way the world changes and the way that we strive to change with it too.

And when we assess the best live action Spider-Man, we must think about the parallel path the change takes for hero and viewer. We must ask what the greatest gift Spider-Man can give us really is. Is it merch? Is it memes? Is it Webb's coming out of his actual wrists, which your character has been? by the way. No, of course not. It is the ability to embrace who we are and who we might become to think every time Peter puts on his mask about whether it might be time for us to take off our own. The essence of a great Spider-Man story is as much about the coming of age aspects as

the superhero aspects, and they are in fact inextricable from each other. The components of the secret sauce crafted by marrying aspirational feats with high school angst with that youth that you are rallying against, the relatability of youth, the humanity of longing, the power of teamwork and found family, pairing a friendly neighborhood ethos with a galactic might. Tom Holland and his films exude this. He is eminently believable in high school science and as the bitch please you've been to space guy. The best live action Spider-Man must be both the best Peter Parker and the best Spider-Man. And Holland strikes this balance as perfectly as a cord crafted from the web fluid that he himself

created. I now pass to my co-counsel. Mao, you bring up a great point. The best Spider-Man must be the best Peter Parker and the best Spider-Man. And that's why Tom Holland is the best. Because there's an inherent dichotomy to the character, right? There's Peter Parker, their nerdy kid who can't get the girl, who everybody makes fun of. And Spider-Man, the superhero, the people that everyone looks to in the sky. Right? Tom Holland exudes the best of both of those characters.

And frankly, when we sit down to watch a Spider-Man film, we're here to have fun. That's what I want in a Spider-Man. I want a Spider-Man who wants to be the best Spider-Man and the best Peter Parker. And honestly, Tom Holland gives us that in droves every time he's on screen. The case for Toby McGuire's. Peter Parker is anchored ultimately in nostalgia. And that is indeed a powerful force. But we can toast his contribution to our lives in the cinematic superhero canon while also acknowledging a simple

but powerful and irrefutable truth. Primacy bias doesn't need to win the day here. McGuire's Peter Parker entered the ring first, but he is not the one standing at the end. And let's be honest, McGuire's Peter, dear to so many as he is, isn't even the second best live action portrayal. That would be Andrew Garfields. But in Holland, McGuire has been undoubtedly surpassed by a performance and a near pitch perfect realization of a boy and a hero alike, an encapsulation. And encapsulation. of the very soul and spirit of Peter Parker, Spider-Man.

As much as people want to give the new Spidey films plaque for saying, oh, he's a sidekick in his own movies. In the original Spider-Man films, you could argue, right, that those films were carried by others as well, right? Other characters in that film. And honestly, as Cap said, we all need family. And Hollins, Peter, reminds us that it's not a demerit, it's not a problem. It's a strength.

We yield our time to the chair. Mr. Lathen and Mr. Holmes will have 10 minutes to present evidence and call for witnesses. Thank you. Members of the jury, Mr. Lathen and I, we're here to honor legacy. We're here today to honor our past, but most importantly, we're here to honor our ancestors. The four tenets of Spider-Man are worse to aspire to. independence, intelligence, ingenuity, maybe call it resilience, and responsibility. Our client, Mr. McGuire, and his betrayal of Spider-Man embody all of these qualities.

Mr. McGuire's Peter Parker is down on his luck, bullied, beaten, but he never gives up. He's a genius and a romantic and equal measure. When he loses his uncle Ben, this poor lad so, himself a suit that isn't bulletproof that rips and tears and leaves him vulnerable to all of the enemies of New York City. You can see his face! See, he

can't wait for a billionaire to descend from the sky and give him a billion dollar suit. Oh my God. No! Toby McGuire Spider-Man is no man sidekick. He doesn't spend movies looking for a mentor because

what can an Iron Man, Mysterio, or Dr. Strange him that his Uncle Ben didn't already say. Rest of peace, Uncle Ben! Tom Holland may look like a great Peter Parker. He might be spunky and precocious, but those are all surface-level qualities. Before I let Mr. Lathen bring our expert witness to the stand, I'd like to present a piece of evidence to the jury.

Exhibit A is from the creator of Spider-Man himself, Mr. Stan Lee. If you don't trust Mr. Lathorne or I as we vouch for our colleagues, client, Mr. McGuire, please trust the man responsible for giving us such a cherished character. He made him up. Please, can you play the clip? Sam Ramey and this guy, they made Spider-Man. It couldn't have been what it was without this guy. He is the greatest.

Thank you, Sam. And I'm a jealous guy. I wanted to be Peter Parker. So if I say how good he is, you can believe me. Now, I don't know about opposing counsel, but I don't think I know the character of Spider-Man as well as the man who created it. And if that isn't enough,

I'd like to bring one more surprise witness to the stand. Can you please state your name for the record? Hey, I'm Tom Holland. And Mr. Holland, I have one simple question. In your estimation, what is your view on the original Spider-Man films? I think the second was one of the best superhero movies ever made. Thank you, thank you, Mr. Holland.

Mr. Holland, Mr. Holland, Mr. Holland, please don't tell Van Lathen and I to go back where we came from. Please keep it respectful. All right. My Peter Parker loves everyone. So, see, members of the jury. Objection, relevance.

That's not on trial here. We're not talking about the movies. The movies aren't on trial here. The characters are on trial here. May I finish? Can we please add 30 seconds back to our time? Order. See, members of the jury,

even Tom Holland knows what time it is. He said, and I quote, the second one was one of the best superhero movies ever made. maybe so good in fact that a spider boy that can't carry his own franchise needs to call in a

superior Spider-Man and Toby McGuire to help save him. Now, if you would indulge us, my colleague, Mr. Lathen, would like to bring an expert witness to the stand. Mr. Lathen, please make a sizzle. Yes, first of all, riveting, riveting, riveting, rest and peace,

Stanley, somebody who knows, who knows Spider-Man, the character that he created. Is that character being played right now by Tom Holland. Who knows? Maybe not. Probably not. Disney XD. High school musical Spider-Man coming to a theater near you. I'd like to present an expert witness here, an expert witness who knows a little bit about the Spider-Man movies, the Tom, the Tobby McGuire Spider-Man movies, because he was there.

He saw the movies. He saw the magic because he was in these films. He was in the greatest superhero movie of all time, maybe besides the Dark Night. Spider-Man 2. Expert Witness, would you please state your name for the record? Donna Rohn's, aka the Interruptor, aka Ashi Larry, AKA Cash and Ash Rules everything around me.

Now, as you might be aware, this is a very, very serious case where we're alleging that Toby McGuire is the far superior, Spider-Man on screen to the current Spider-Man Tom Holland. Now, a lot of people have watched these movies, but very few people have been in one of these movies. And I feel sorry for those people, but continue.

For the record, for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, which Spider-Man movie were you in? I was in the one, the only one that anybody should ever watch, the one that's probably going to go down in history as the greatest one, but Tommy McGuire, I would say Spider-Man 2. would have to be the superior Spider-Man in any class or any way you want to take it. That's my truth and I'm sticking with it

and I'll make the argument with anyone. You're in Spider-Man 2, which is arguably the greatest superhero movie of all time. It's right up there. Arguably, it is. It is. The greatest superhero movie of all time. Okay. Why don't you give us a little background as to how you got on that particular film?

At the time, I was up for a situation on BET, Black Entertainment Network, and that's the network that always gets you to sign disclaimer saying that we're not going to pay you. There's a, I mean, and I'll talk about that. I was supposed to be a man on the street guy

for the BET Awards. At this point in my career is one of the biggest things you could do. The producers in this case didn't want me, but the directors did, right? So up until Friday, I was supposed to be on this show. Friday night, I get a phone call sent,

and this is what a lot of white people do in this case, the white people being BT, they decide that they're going to move in a different direction. So I lost the job Friday night. Saturday morning, I get a call for my manager, and he's like, I don't know, how do you got the hotline? He said, Spider-Man 2

called, and they want you to come into work today. So Sam Ramey puts up a stick and has a green X on it, and this scenario he gave me. These was nothing on the paper. He said, okay, down now, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's getting, he's, he's, he's, he's,

He's working at a pizza shop. He's going to be late. If he's late again, he's going to be fired from his job. He goes in an alley. He comes back with a pizza box. What would you say? And me being the Thesbian, and this is for years and years of training. I say, whoa, he stole that guy's pizza part two.

And I'll rewind it, Van, is that that role was for Stan Lee. And the reason why I got called the last minute, because something happened with him where he wasn't available and they had to scramble. So Stanley not being able to be in a movie is the reason why I have one of the most iconic phrases in the history of, I would say all movies. It ranks up, bitch. I think it ranks up with fuck your couch and a lot of other things. But it was a good thing for me.

So what you're telling me is way before it was mandatory, way before the woke revolution happened. That you don't adhere to, but go ahead. Whatever. Way before that happened, that Sam Ramey, Toby McGuire, and Spider-Man to Toby McGuire, Spider-Man was willing to put a black face front and center, front and center. By default. And as a black man, I don't care how I get the gig, just get the gig. It could be for some reason something happens, but the fact that they switched the gears and went to an African ashy American. Yes. It says a lot for the whole brand.

The Spider-Man brand stands a lot for Sam Ramey's vision to see excellence in its face like that. Absolutely. I agree. Two more questions for you. I appreciate your time today as expert witness. Have you seen the newer Spider-Man movies with Tom Holland as Spider-Man? Have you seen them? I have not seen.

I have no desire to see it. In fact, I really tried to because. When I did Spider-Man 2, they were so impressed with that reaction shot that there was some talk about me coming back in another shot, the Hal Sparks shot in the elevator. That was supposed to be me again. But for some reason, the deal didn't go through. But I have no desire to see any movie that's not a part of history like Spider-Man 2 was.

If that answers your question. Did you ever get a chance to meet Toby McGuire? I've never got a chance to meet Toma McGuire but I'm pretty sure he's a fan of my work and I'm pretty sure that he looks forward to work with me on some project in the near future. We could probably get back together and do a remake Soulplane 3

but I'm pretty sure that he would be down with anything that I'm doing, yes. Last question I'll ask you. How do you feel like your life would be different right now if you wouldn't have been in Spider-Man too? It's nice to know that the franchise that is Spider-Man that will continue to go on and on. At some point, people are going to look back and they're going to,

they're going to do a timeline, they're going to do viewings and everything. And for me, I just think it just makes me a part of history. And I really do appreciate that. I respect Sam Ramey for his choice to have me, whether he had any other person to consider or not. I became a part of history. A part of history. Donnell Rawlins, thank you for joining us today. I'm just sure. No, thank you for joining us today, Donnell Rollins. All right, bro. Powerful. Powerful. They took a black man. Ashley Black Man, before the woke revolution, before diversity was a must, before it was, oh, let's make Mary Jane Black, let's throw him a curveball.

Now, but a black man, front and said, and what did he say? That guy stole my pizza. All right. Counsel Rubin and Jomi, you have the floor. Opposing counsel has chosen to, quote, Stanley. We will be doing the same. Tom Holland's Peter Parker, like the comic book icon on which he is based, first got his powers at 15. This is not happenstance. It is deeply embedded like the pincers of a radioactive spider into Peter Parker's skin, into the germ of Spider-Man's being, into the very intention of the character. Speaking at UCLA and reflecting back on one of his greatest co-creations,

Stanley, in a tale that you can find on YouTube if you're interested in hearing more, said of first dreaming up the wall crawler, quote, I figured just for fun, I'm going to give him personal problems. Then I thought I'd make him a teenager because there were no teenage superheroes that I knew of at the time. What did his publisher say in reply? Lee shared this with us. You want him to be a teenager? Teenagers can only be sidekicks.

Stan was sharing this with the assembled, not as an offhand fact, but to help illuminate the value of sticking with your gut, trusting your instincts. So central was Peter's teenager status that it warranted mention decades later and a speech meant to encourage the masses to follow their dreams.

Holland is such a convincing high school are so authentically right for this part that Marvel was able to send him undercover to Bronx science to prepare for the role. Meanwhile, just a few buckets of popcorn into our journey with Toby McGuire Spider-Man, and I would encourage opposing counsel to remember that Toby McGuire plays Spider-Man, and two other movies in addition to Spider-Man too. He's failing out of college courses. He's renting his own apartment in the city. He's orchestrating a botched marriage proposal.

We don't have to worry about him washing his face. We have to worry about whether he is, in fact, already washed. Living alongside the characters that we love is part of the joy in investing in them. We want to grow with Peter. We want to watch him age, watch him mature, watch him fall in love. We want to get to all of those points with him. But for that growth to feel true, we have to actually spend the time traveling that path with him. And we are doing so with Tom Holland's Peter Parker.

He was 15 when we met him. And aside from a refreshing, albeit deceptive lemonade in Prague, his 16th year was not so sweet. He and his pals pack retainers on school trips. They have to work up the nerve to ask each other out to school dances. They earned attention when they're dicking around. Tom Holland's Peter Parker is charming and physically convincing and empathetic. And we will talk about why all of those things matter more today too. But we must first credit him for this, for embodying the very teenage essence, the very spirit that you are besmirching of who this character was always meant to be.

And relatedly, Peter eases into his powers as part of his larger coming of age journey. He makes his own web it a point that you were floating wrongly as evidence in your client's favor. It is not coming out of his actual fucking wrists. Do you ever think about why, members of the jury, both the Spider-Man trilogy and the amazing Spider-Man films thrust Peter so instantly and so seamlessly into the sky. Well, the people who made Spider-Man homecoming, Tom Holland's first standalone Spider-Man MCU movie, thought about it often. In a 2017 interview with the Hollywood reporter, screenwriter Jonathan Goldstein said of the monumental Washington sequence in which Peter displays some well-founded hesitancy, quote, we wanted the movie to

focus on him coming to terms with his new abilities and not yet being good with them and carrying with him some real human fears and weaknesses like a fear of heights because nobody ever dealt with that before. You just sort of assumed he gets bitten by a spider. He's totally comfortable on top of tall buildings. But Goldstein asked, why did that have to be the case? Why indeed? McGuire is Spider-Man for so many people because he's the one they saw first. But if we really zoom in, really assess, there is something implausible about his instant expertise. But we adapt with Hollins, Peter. We face fears with him. We find comfort with him. He becomes Spider-Man a little bit more every time he expresses doubt and then conquers a fear, and we do too. I pass to my co-counsel.

Peter is able to mature this way because his heart is open. He lets people in. He loves, and he wants, he just wants to be loved. He's not too obsessive. He's going out of his way to remind himself, not to be creepy. A lesson Toby's Peter could have done well to learn, but he is passionate. All right.

And he's also awkward, right? That's what, as Peter should be. Steve, play clip number one, the date scene. Hey. Hey. Where were you? Um, I got lost. We were worried about you.

Oh. Good thing you're back. Yeah. So much for Paris, right? It would have been fun. Night. Night. You look, no. Look at how awkward Peter is.

Trying to talk to the girl he's been pining over for months. Right? A girl he sees every day in class went on a school field trip with. He can barely muster up the courage to talk to her. Now, Steve, play clip two, the Civil War scene. Those wings carbon fiber? Is this stuff coming out of you? I would explain the rigidity flexibility ratio, which got to say, that's awesome.

I don't know if you've been in a fight before, but there's usually not this much talking. All right, sorry, my bad. Within minutes, minutes of meeting the winter soldier in a falcon. He's already chatting big game as Spider-Man. Right? There's, like I said in my opening statements, there's a duality. Holland's Peter Parker explicitly blends his awkwardness and his bravado. Right. It's integral to the character, right? Being super awkward in front of his girl, but being big man when he's got the Spider-Man costume on. We don't see that. We don't see that with Toby McGuire Spider-Man. But it is integral. It is essential when we get to Tom Holland Spider-Man. And let's keep it real. He's actually dating Zendaya. So what more do you need to see? You know, what more?

or do you really need to see? If you are, however, looking for more evidence, we are happy to oblige. Let's talk about empathy. All of what we have described so far is possible in no small part because the ego that Hollands Peter possesses is relatable, not alienating.

As Peter explains to Tony in his MCU introduction, he wants to play football, he wants to show off, he wants to use his abilities to flex. Of course, that's a natural inclination. but he doesn't. Why? I couldn't then, he says, so I shouldn't now. I ask if Toby McGuire's Peter Parker can say the same. Or did he absurdly and riskily reveal his powers in a wrestling match before even properly securing his identity? Does Hollins Peter call happy, constantly and implore

Tony to allow him to do more? He does. But hey, there is nothing wrong with being ambitious wanting to help, loving your job. But amid this, he maintains a tenderness essential to his being. And that matters so much because when Peter then grows and far from home to resent the burden he carries, to feel overwhelmed by the weight of inheriting Iron Man's mantle, eager to spend his summer traveling and working up the courage to kiss a girl, that he likes. Rather than fighting villains and always having to give, give, give, we under. stand. Peter loves being a hero, but he also wants to be a kid, and he is a kid, and he should be.

As with the best tales and the most worthy heroes, Holland's Peter finds his way forward by staring into his fears, that he is not good enough, that he cannot carry the weight. But he is, and he can. And to reinforce this, I would call upon Judge Allman to share a key piece of evidence with our jury. Happy's passing of the torch speech to Peter and far from home. You're not Iron Man. You're never going to be Iron Man. Nobody could live up to Tony. Not even Tony.

Tony was my best friend. And he was a mess. He second-guessed everything he did. He was all over the place. The one thing that he did that he didn't second-guess was picking you. Powerful stuff. I don't think Tony would have done what he did if he didn't know that you were going to be. after he was gone.

Inspiring. Inspiring. Could there be a greater endorsement of Holland's Spider-Man? A greater reminder that Holland embodies both the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man and the Avenger, that you can only grow big if you first learn how to be comfortable being small. I once again passed to co-counsel. Thank you, Mallory. just a reminder, the movies and the villains aren't on trial here.

There's nothing small, of course, about Spider-Man's Rose Gallery. You know, we should all think about it. It's, you know, incredible. But the opposing counsel is counting the merits of the original trilogy. But that's not what we're here to discuss, right? The OG Spider-Man film stand out because of the villains, because of Dr. Octopus, because of the Green Goblin, right? take the villains out of the equation we're not having this conversation

Spider-Man 2 is a legendary film. No one is disagreeing. It deserves that credit. But if you love this movie because of the villain, we'd ask that you give Vulture his MCU do too. And if you love it because it shows the burden of being spidey,

we direct you to Holland's anguish-reducing grappling of inheriting the Avengers mantle. There is not a claim McGuire's Peter boasts that Spidey's, Holland Spidey's can't match. Is the opposite true? I yield my time.

Your Honor, are we allowed to redirect? Yes, you are allowed a few minutes to redirect. Okay, so. We're going to need more than a few. Yeah, we, yeah. Very quickly, just so we know. Just so we know, and I'll turn it over to my co-counsel. Mallory said something very, very, very telling.

She said that this Spider-Man was inheriting Iron Man's mantle. Talk on and speak on it, man. Inheriting Iron Man's mantle. Your counsel just admitted that this is not Spider-Man. This is a character that was dropped into a world that was huge that has never, ever had to carry his own weight. Ever. The first time we see this character is in somebody else's movie. We're talking about all of the things that this character has to come to terms with. We're talking about all of the things that this character has to navigate. One of the reasons why

this character is in such a position to be this is because it's not their universe. Our Spider-Man, yes, is dealing with things that are core to the character, a little bit of an older portrayal

of Spider-Man. But it's him that has to save New York City from Green Gobly. It's him that has to save New York City from Dr. Octopus. It's him. There are no Avengers to help him. There's no happy to help him. There's no huge, entire gigantic world to help him.

It's Spider-Man as the character was created. We're talking about friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, right? What is the neighborhood in Tom Holland's Spider-Man? what's the neighborhood What like what's like where What is the neighborhood? What does this kid? What is this kid?

Objection on the grounds that opposing counsel seems to have not seen the movie Spider-Man Homecoming. I've seen the movie Spider-Man Homecoming. I've seen it. But I can tell you one thing. That is more about him running behind Iron Man than is about him really figuring out anything. What I'm telling you right now is the cheat code that this Tom Holland Spider-Man has to do is that he really doesn't have to do anything.

Not, he really doesn't have to do very much at all. We're talking about all of these, all the way he's growing as a kid. Well, what about New York? What about New York? I have another clip to play. I would like to play a clip from the trailer of Spider-Man No Way Home. A movie that's not even out yet. Okay?

Drop the clip, Steve. So M. James is going to forget about everything we've very much. ever been through. Stop tampering with a spell. Oh my God, Ned. He's my best friend. My hand, May should really stop talking.

So. Objection on the grounds that counsel's case is so thin. They must submit evidence that does not actually exist yet. We cannot know how a trailer has been edited. The trailer is a relaxed. Whoa, whoa. Whoa.

The trailer. The trailer, the trailer, the trailer in fact, does exist. and the trailer in fact shows us. Not in a way that we can trust. Do we know the merits of the trailer? Can we can we all agree that the scene with Peter fucking up the spell is in the movie?

No. We can't. We do not know the context. We do not know the context. We don't know the context. Whoa. So that scene of Peter fucking up the,

fucking, okay. Before you rule, before you rule, Chair, let me, let me tell you why. The jury is, we trust in the jury. Please, proceed. Let me tell you, let me tell you why I'm bringing this up.

This is another case of Peter bungling something up and then having to bring in who to help figure it out. Older Spider-Man, which we know will be in the movie. We don't know. This is another case of Peter, your little Spider-boy Disney-X-D. creation, bungling something so much to where you have Dr. Strange, other Spider-Man, who fucking knows? Peter Porker might have to come in and sling a little bacon for this kid to get himself out of Hawk.

Listen, we can talk about Spider-Man all you want. We can talk about the fact that the kid is this all you want. But the reality of the situation is that what we are watching is not a faithful. it's not forget about nostalgia i'm talking about what spider man is it's not a faithful it's not a realistic if you ask me and it's not a powerful it's not a powerful depiction of this character it just simply cannot this is a character that's consistently in over his head

to the point to where now we're going into multiversal bullshit to help him get out of almost destroying a whole fucking world I got to get tired to worry. And, Mr. Lathen, I just want to tell the opposing counsel. They keep bringing up the high school aspects of Peter. But can you tell me what's relatable about a coming of age story when Elon Musk has to descend from the sky and fix all of your problems? That didn't happen for me!

The great thing about Toby McGuire's Spider-Man and all of those movies. I don't know no billionaires. Is that Toby McGuire has problems. He has to work at the Daily Bugle and take... photos that are going to be used against him. He's a pizza boy. He's constantly late because he's saving the city. And he has to do this.

He can't wait for the Avengers to come save him. If we're talking about what's real about Spider-Man, it's the struggle. It's not somebody who looks like a high school kid. That's aesthetics. All right? That's talking about the heart of the character. All right. Order, order, order.

I will be instructing the jury. While I will allow that evidence that Mr. Lathen has submitted, I will instruct the jury to require context and to temper their expectations accordingly. Ms. Rubin and Adonneron, you have the floor. Opposing counsel has mentioned problems. And we would note, before diving into a few of the problems that their client has failed to navigate,

that counsel is consistently arguing against our client but not in favor of their own. Notable. There's not much evidence to present. Yes, the pull of nostalgia is strong, but if we peer into the memories with the goblins mask off our eyes, what do we see? Now, Mr. Adoneron and I are not here today to besmirch Mr. McGuire's contribution, a key distinction we might note between the two cases. his Peter Parker is a meaningful part of so many fans' experience. But in a live action web shooter head to head, it is incumbent upon us to assess with clarity and candor where each portrayal soars and where each falls short, webs sliced by the power of an observant argument. Now, Toby McGuire's Peter Parker

tells Uncle Ben, in essence, to fuck off. Now, yes, Spider-Man's most famous line is irrefutably with great power comes great responsibility. But in the Toby McGuire films, who first shares this line with us? Is it Peter? Wisdom hard one? No, not yet. It is Uncle Ben. And he is imparting wisdom as mentors often do.

And does Toby's Peter welcome that wisdom? Does he meet this effort to guide with humility and grace? I would ask Judge Allman to present the evidence contained in the clip, Uncle Ben. With great power comes great responsibility. Are you afraid that I'm going to turn into some kind of criminal? Quit worrying about me, okay? Something's different. I'll figure it out.

Stop lecturing me, please. I don't mean the lecture and I don't mean to preach. and I know I'm not your father. Then stop pretending to be. Shameful. Objection? Objection. Holland did the same thing to start.

Didn't listen to him, went off, and almost killed a bunch of people on a boat. Objection. He didn't, objection. He didn't listen to Tony Stark. He had to come save him. To give him responsibility and trust. He didn't say, fuck you.

You're not my dad. Objection. Tony tried to stop. Or objection. Tony tried to stop him and he almost killed a bunch of people on the Staten Island Ferry. Mr. Lathen, I'll have to hold you in contempt if you carry on like that.

Judge, we would ask that that not be taken out of our time. You let them. Wait, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. At what point? At what point? We will happily grant you an additional minute, but that will not be taken out of our time. You let them object. Steve, get a control of your fucking court.

You let them, you let them, you let them. let them object while we were in the middle of our thing. And they're saying something. Our guy mouted off to his uncle. Their guy went off on its own and almost got people killed. Mouth off to his uncle. That's order. All right.

Continue. I'll continue. Not only is Toby Peter's most famous line, not initially his, he greets it with derision. The knowledge of this transgression eventually leads him forward, yes. But for us, it is a wound that festers. A sin as noxious as any gathers. ass inside of OssCorp.

Now, what else does Toby McGuire's Peter Parker do? He dances like a fucking asshole across the streets of New York, pointing creepily at passing women. He routinely takes photos of women when they are not aware, or tells them he's doing so for other reasons. School paper. Sure, Peter. We should be buying Peter Parker as a hero,

not a stalker, okay? He also fails to realize that the nominal love of his life has been fired from her job. So uninterested is he in the happenings in the people around him in their lives. He uses another woman, Gwen, to make MJ jealous, wounding both of them. He blows up half of his best friend's face. He screams at his landlord. He demands that Ursula make him come. cookies with nuts as she's hand feeding him another batch. Again, shameful. Now, blame some of this

on the symbiote if you must for some of the items on that list. But ask yourself if we've ever seen Hollins, Peter, succumb in such a way. To quote patron movie critic saint of our sister podcast, the rewatchables, Roger Ebert, if there is a Spider-Man four and there will be, how about giving Peter and Mary Jane at least the emotional complexity of soap operatic? characters. If Juno met Peter Parker, she'd have him for breakfast. That is rough. Now, you mentioned the pizza. He fails to deliver it on time. I am troubled by presenting poor time management as one of the few merits you have offered up for your client. At least our Peter has to have a job. He doesn't have a billionaire bank rolling him. He's a hero. Because he's a hundred

years old. Right. Okay. He washes his top secret suit in public. I am, I am talking. I am talking about, I am not being aghist, I'm talking about, as you said, to not be privileged. Order, order. The spirit and intention of the character. Your entire argument hinges on saying that Tom Holland's Peter Parker is not actually Spider-Man, but to then ignore the youth and the, the centrality of that coming-age tale is simply incongruous. And we have a responsibility to point that out to the jury. Time, time, please strike all of that. not.

Time. We absolutely not. Can please? Judge Steve, can you get to wrap up? Shockingly cavalier about maintaining a secret identity.

You coach some of our time. You're welcome to continue. We would love to trade a few more volleys here because we have more. Perhaps you don't. We can get it. We can make a argument based off, first of all,

it doesn't matter how young Spider-Man is. It's just that he's Spider-Man. I understand. Tom Holland is plucky. Oh, I can dance. I get it. Like he's plucky, he's youthful. I get it.

It doesn't matter. The youth here is not the point of contention. It's not the fact that he's too young to be Spider-Man. It's the fact that he's not actually the character. You have besmirched him repeatedly as Spider-Boy. That is central to the case that you're presenting. Did Tony Stark not call him Spider-Boy to his face? Yes, and you are also here attempting to shred

Tony Stark's legacy and relevance. Which is it? He shredded his own legacy. No, this is the point. The point is the youth of this character they have used to subtract him from the essence of the character. They've used youth as an excuse with Tom Holland

to say that there are certain things that he can't do. You made fun of Toby McGuire's dancing. We watched Tom Holland learn how to dance. Like they've taken the character. and stripped it down to where he is just a player in a world that is so much bigger than him that he has less effect on it than Toby McGuire Spider-Man ever has. And it's just not Spider-Man. See, no, no, Mallory.

The reality is... We ask for time to respond to the, frankly, troubling, repeated claim that teamwork is somehow a problem. No, seconds to respond, and then we will get to closing arguments. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought it was a problem because God forbid he gets help from other characters. God forbid in a universe as big as expensive. Can our Spider-Man stand on his own two feet? Can a Spider-Man stand on his own two feet?

Listen, listen. You remember him taking down Vulture, right? Listen. No, Mel, they didn't. Mel, they remember us to movies. It's okay. They obviously haven't seen the movies. I remember Vulture actually kind of taken down himself if we want to be real with it.

Whoa, whoa. I remember, I remember, I remember if we want to be real with it, I remember him saying to Vulture Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember him saying to Vulture, hey, stop, you're going to, you're going to do this and Vulture not listening and really taking down himself

after Peter had gotten his fucking ass kicked by Vulture, okay? I remember that. That's a great point. That's a great point. I know it's a great point because he's a little baby. Van, that's a great point, right?

That's a, no, no, wait, wait, Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Hold on. Van, that's a great point you made, right? That Spider-Man did not defeat Volcher. Vulture defeated himself, right? Yeah, he was getting his ass whipped. That's a great point. Who, how did Green Gobbin die in the first, in the first movie?

In a remarkable move by Spider-Man? What are you talking about? I mean, who's, I would like you to tell me. For the record. Van, for the record. Wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no. Who is, wait, wait, no, no, I got the floor. Wait, Spider-Man had the floor.

Wait, Spider-Man had. Wait, hold on, wait, no. Green Goblin. Who's glider? Who's glider? Answer the question. Answer the question. Okay.

Answer the question. Can I answer the question? Can I also, can I ask you the question? No, no, answer the question. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer.

Let me answer. Uh-huh. He had been defeated. Who's glider? Let me ask you. Let me ask you. You said, you said who defeated Green Goblin? Green Goblin was defeated.

He was out. Our Spider-Man, wait, listen, our Spider-Man was sparing Green Goblin. By letting his glider kill him. He was sparing him. Interesting. And Green Goblin tried to get the one-up on him at the end,

and he flipped over the glider and Green Goblin killed himself. Our guy had spared Green Goblin killed himself. Your guy was like, hey, don't move on. We can move on. Once again, Dr. Inking, get his ass whip. In order. Wait, no, no, hold on, Steve. No, no, Steve, I got some more.

Joe me. Wait, hold on. In Spider-Man 2, how did Dr. Octopus, how did they get rid of Dr. Octopus? The son destroyed him. He didn't, he didn't give up. He didn't just fall into the ocean with the sun thing.

Right? Did he? Did he? But you know what Spider-Man was doing? Do you know what he was doing? When that happened? Do you remember the movie? He was saving Mary Jane Watson.

Woo! So, yeah, he did. Your argument He chose his girl Here's it No no no This is my good No your argument is based on

No no no no no It's based on the fact that Spider-Man Does not defeat his villains Well I just showed you that in two movies You said that you said that You said he defeated vulture And I said he didn't defeat Volcher You said I had nothing about the field

You said you said you said he defeated Vulture He didn't defeat Volcher This is honestly embarrassing I'm honestly embarrassed for you I'm embarrassed for you I'm embarrassed for you I'm embarrassed for you Let me ask a question

Let me ask a question I'll ask you one question. Had Spider-Man defeated Green Goblin at the point that he flipped over the glider? Yes or no? No. You're a liar. You're just going to lie in front of the... You're just going to lie. They were still beefing.

You know what? Order for that. Order for that. We've rebuttled enough. We're going to be going to closing arguments. Listen. Closing arguments. You can conclude your point, Jomey, and then we'll move on to closing arguments with Van and Charles. Easy call. Here's my point, right? Teamwork is part of

superhero stories, right? The substance of the opposing counsel's case that has rested solely on tearing down the idea of help teamwork is honestly sad. It's honestly, it's honestly sad to see. Don't hate on Tom Holland's Peter Parker because he got a stark suit or two. He also built his own. Or two. Order.

Initially, and then again later and far from home. And he makes his own webbing, right? He's made his own web shooters. and he makes his own webbing, right? He is both the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man and a part of a larger hole, right? And that teamwork, that found family, isn't that why we're here?

Isn't that why we love these stories? Having a mentor and being able to ask for help. What about having nine? It's not a reason. Right? It's a strength. What about having life? It's a strength that comes from confidence

and a reminder that you need others to help succeed. This motherfucker had Nick Fury Mysterio was a mentor He like he got mentor by the villain He's a moron Order Holland's Peter has the smarts And the ability

To forge meaningful partnerships And bonds People are flawed But he is empathetic Is intelligent and understanding enough He doesn't work on his lessons Liz says he's the smartest person

that she's ever met, he's constantly learning. And that's one of the things that's most relatable about him is that it is hard, hard to actually become better. But the key is that he wants to and that he tries.

Does Tony McGuire's Peter Parker want to be better? Absolutely. His son of constant regression. By the way, by the way, I'm not trying to dis Liz, but Liz saying that he's the smartest guy she's ever met doesn't really go that far from me

when her father was the biggest fucking terrorist on the Eastern Seaboard and she had no clue. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so as far as Liz saying that he's the smartest, yeah, for the fun, for the people that she knows, he's probably a fucking Rhodes scholar. But the fact of the matter is,

her dad flew around in mechanical wings all over the place, and she thought he worked at Lowe's. The reality is, I'm not really taking Liz. is shit. Liz was no fucking rocket scientist herself. You know, so Liz, smartest guy, I know, yeah, whatever. Ned is smarter.

What are we doing now? I'm so pissed. We are doing closing arguments is what we should be doing now. Structured and orderly fashion. Mr. Lathen, Mr. Holmes, you have the floor for closing arguments. Thank you.

Your Honor, members of the jury, my esteemed colleague, Mr. Lathen, and my worthy adversaries, Mr. Rubin and Mr. Deneron, I'd like to thank you so much for today. But for one last time on this September afternoon, I like you all to humor me as I tell a story. For a certain generation, you remember where you were. I certainly do.

It's 2002, you're sitting in a dark, cold theater, seeing the type of movie that for years seems like an impossibility. Then one line hits you so hard. I mean, it is like a ton of bricks. A loving old man seated in a car, turned to a young nephew. He feels like he's losing and says something so simple and yet so profound. Can you roll it, Steve?

Remember, with great power, comes great responsibility. Man, those words, they are so sweet. So, so sweet. They echo through time. They transform the hearts and minds of teenagers in 1962, then again in 2002, and today here in this courtroom. And in that one moment, Spider-Man became more than a comic, more than a superhero, and more than idea.

He became mythological. When Toby Maguire sees his uncle dying the street, you realize the difficulty of the task we placed on my client. As the tears streamed down McGuire's face, he captures the essence of Peter Parker and more importantly,

gives birth to a cinematic Spider-Man. Without his portrayal, we would not even be in the midst of such a spirited debate. Toby McGuire's portrayal of Spider-Man it fundamentally honors the core of who this character is in a way Tom Holland hasn't. If someone wants to understand who Spider-Man is on a molecular level,

we know what movie series you give them. One that features the pillars of Spider-Man, the power and the responsibility, the tragedy, the depths of despair, and the triumph of saving the world despite it all. You'll see a genius stuck behind being a pizza boy to support himself, a genius reduced to self, to selling his soul to J. Jonah Jameson

and a hero hell bent on saving the world that thinks he's a menace. Those other movies will have people thinking Iron Man is more important to Peter Parker's story than Uncle Ben, Aunt May, or even fucking Mary Jane. Oh! Part of what makes Toby McGuire the Superior Spider-Man is that he can't wait for an Avenger

to help him save the day. All he has is his wits, his heart, Yes. And the burden of power. The burden of fuck. Fuck your shit, Coke, baby, Chuck. See, Stanley spent his whole life describing to anyone who would listen what Spider-Man meant to him, why he was so great.

Yo, Steve, play the tape from you, please. Until Peter Parker, no superhero or no superhero's alter ego had ever had to worry about making a living, getting along well with girls, being popular, or have all the the problems that I tried to heap as many problems as I could on poor Peter because I feel most people, even people who seem to be happy, have problems and they have worries. What's Tom Holland's biggest problem in these MCU movies that people won't stop hitting on his hot aunt? My Peter's from the mud.

That's what we're debating. Oh, my God. My Peter's from the mud, okay? Toby McGuire is the Spider-Man and Peter Parker that Stanley envisioned from the start. Tom Holland, man, he's a great fellow. but he's not the perfect embodiment of the character that we all know and love. But if we're being honest,

I love those Toby McGuire movies for a selfish reason. When I was the same age as Peter, I lost an Uncle Ben. Then I lost another Uncle Ben, and then another and another. And I know for a fact, I'm not alone because everyone listening to this, everyone in this courtroom today is Peter Parker.

We've all been that little boy in a street wishing we didn't have the burden of so much power in this world and the rest of, responsibility that comes with it. When you watch Toby in those movies, he's just one kid trying to survive in a universe that seems designed to tear him down. But when Toby's Spider-Man puts his life on the line to overcome the green goblin or jumps in front of a speeding train to save a handful of people, it taught me something.

Train scene. We're not defined by a grief. No, no, no, no. We're defined by what we do with that grief. You can be poor, unpopular and self-conscious. You may never get the girl or have the best job. It can be you against a measurable odds, and all you have on your side is a homemade suit,

some gumption, and a little faith. You don't need a billionaire, his money, or his high-tech suit. Everything that you need is inside of you. See, Toby McGuire made us believe, people. Toby McGuire is that guy. Toby McGuire is Peter Parker. Man, most importantly, Toby McGuire is Spider-Man.

you know, thank y'all for your time. All right, closing arguments, Mallory Rubin, and Joe Mia Dinara. We would just like to take a second to thank everyone, take the jury for taking their time to listen to our case today. When it's all said and done, the question we set out to answer isn't who has the best movies or who has the best villains or who has the most problems. The question is, who is the best live action Spider-Man? Through careful observation and thoughtful consideration, we hope to have made the case that Tom Holland fits that bill.

Our opposing counsel has made the case that Spider-Man doesn't rest on his own laurels or isn't truly Spider-Man, but we very clearly disagree. We know that you have many options to choose from for the Best Live Act in Spider-Man. We thank you for choosing Tom Holland. Members of the jury, how can we find the comfort needed to rest our case? How can we put our trust in someone else's hands? Find faith in other people, purpose, and our hope? Because Tom Holland's Peter Parker showed us how. As Toby McGuire's Peter lies and callous.

wounds loved one after loved one. Hollins Peter lets them into his life, welcomes them. He asks for help, whether from Tony or Ned, happy or MJ. And we would posit that that is not a weakness, but a strength. He struggles, as heroes so often do, with how to reconcile the spheres of his existence. But that is what makes him human. That is what makes us root for him. And all the more so, because he does not use those challenges as justification for shutting people out.

He knows that there is no Spider-Man without the neighborhood and no neighborhood without the people in it. the people who make life worth living and webs worth slinging. There is no friendly neighborhood Spider-Man to save without a neighborhood. We ask you to look inward and assess with honesty and candor whether anything across Toby McGuire's films can even approximate to the emotional heft of Holland Snap Moment with Tony. Joe Jalman, play our final clip. Start.

I don't feel so good You're all right I don't know what's happening I don't want to go I don't want to go Sir please I don't want to go I don't want to go

As opposing counsel has admitted on prior podcasts This moment is a moment that is nearly unsurpassed across the MCU A testament to the impact That these heroes had on each other And on us alike

Tony himself, right, is so tied to the Iron Man moniker, right? Well, Spider-Man, Peter is always balancing between the two. That's why they make such a good mess. Spider-Man is learning, right? He is doing his best to try and find out what it means to be a hero, what it means to bring Spider-Man and Peter Parker together. Can the opposing counsel? Now, in good faith, argue that with this,

pain which United legions can be waved away by the flick of McGuire's emo hair? We don't think so. Your Honor, members of the jury concerned citizens and opposing counsel

as well. We ask in closing as the members of the jury prepare to reach their verdict that all of you consider these words from Tom Holland's Peter Parker And we ask, too, that you really consider their gravity and their weight. When you can do the things that I can, Peter said, but you don't.

And then the bad things happen. They happen because of you. We cannot let the bad thing happen here, esteemed fellows. We cannot let Toby McGuire's live-action Spider-Man win. rule in favor of the hero who crawled not only walls, but our souls and our hearts. Rule in favor of Tom Holland as the best live action, Spider-Man.

We rest our case. All right. I want to thank both councils and direct our listeners to go to at Ringervverse on all socials on Instagram, on Twitter, and Facebook, and decide who is the great greatest live action Spider-Man. Our votes will be tabulated and found out next episode. All right. That is a wrap for us.

Join the Midnight Boys again for our thoughts and our reactions on Shankshi. We're going to be back on Friday. Instant reaction to Shankshi. Next Tuesday, make sure you join Mal for her deep dive into Shankshi. Mal, you having a guest for that one? I will be having a guest. All shall be revealed in time. Oh, wow.

Follow Ringiverse on Facebook. IG, Twitter, please join and send us ideas, questions, and thoughts. Submit your questions and voice memos to the ringerverse at gmail.com. The first ever midnight mailbag we're going to have, guys. Midnight Boys mailbag, we're going to have the first ever mailback. And we want to hear from you guys and what you have to ask, the Midnight Boys. Here, you have to state your name and where you're from. Tell us your favorite Midnight Boys moments and then ask your question.

Keep everything to 40 seconds or less. and then email it to the ringerverse at gmail.com. Our producers are, of course, Steve Allman and the wrong ass, completely wrong, terribly wrong. Jomi the Explaner at Dinner on socials and a judicial production comes from our Juna Ramgapal

and of course, TD. All right, thank you for our special guest expert witness. And now a sign-off from our very own killer midnight boy Charles he's a new nickname Charles the closer homes guys guys guys

court is adjourned everybody on this podcast was on fire I know some of y'all are going to vote for Spider-Boy but we all know the winner is Toby Dwyer There is a prominent adult male black face

in those movies Comic Relief he's another comedian his name is J.B. Smooth. Are you familiar with J.B. Smooth? I'm familiar with J.B. Smooth, yes, but he has a haberdasher. A haberdasch guy, so I don't really respect guys that everything is fitted. His sweatsuits are fitted. He has custom underwear. So, you know, I represent the streets. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know about that. But he's a good friend of mine.

But as any black guy would do disrespect a guy, it did talk about how much of a friend he is. He's a good friend of yours. Yeah. as far as black guys to be in Spider-Man movies. So what we're talking about, who you're taking, yourself or J.B. Smooth? Oh, myself, 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm with that. I know people like, and it goes back to it makes me think of like when you audition for certain things, right? And you get ready to go in the room and people say, man, good luck.

I never wish a motherfucker good luck. If I give you so much good luck, then I'm not going to be in it. So, you know, it's an head man for him. I'm real with it. streets all day. Thank you for joining us today. I think it's very clear that the magic of Spider-Man 2 rubbed off on you,

and we've seen you. You're one of the, I'd say, I tell people this all the time. Daniel Rollins is one of the top five funniest people on planet Earth right now. You need to tell your friend Charlemagne. You tell everybody, but you don't tell your friend Charlemagne to God.

I do tell Charlotte. We're going to go into this now. Now, if you really want to do this now, we're going to switch. You're a woke-ass friend. Tell your woke-ass friend who has a problem with dealing people with mental issues. He says nothing to do with Spider-Man.

The same person that grabs booties and butts on air and is critical of Kanye West and say he's a clown. I've never heard of Kanye West play with a booty on there, all right? And Kanye West was a Spider-Man too. And Sean a Man too. Shaw-O-Mameh said, whoa, he stole that guy's booty.

That's my truth. I'm sticking to it. All right. Enough. Enough. Cut it. But we're done with the witness. We're finished with the witness.

Cut it. I want to speak. I will only speak. Booty Man, too, will be out and it will be released. Chocolate penis will be out and it will be. That's enough. That's enough. The defense rests.

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