The Ringer-Verse - ‘What If…?’ Episode 5 Analysis, Marvel Horror, and Zombie Superlatives

Episode Date: September 11, 2021

It’s time to enter the world of zombies! Mallory Rubin is joined by the Ringer’s Sean Fennessey to dissect the latest episode of Marvel’s “What If...” (03:53). They also dive into the past and future of Marvel horror and talk about what they would like to see scare us in the MCU (66:59). And finally they give out their Zombie Superlatives to some of the best films in the zombie genre (90:15). Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Sean Fennessey Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From reviews to rankings, the big picture is all things movies. From in-depth analysis of the latest flick to sit-down interviews with some of the biggest movie stars and filmmakers on the planet, Sean Fennessee and Amanda Dobbins have got you covered. Check out The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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See terms at fanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. I don't get it. You cured the talking head, but not her? Her powers are too strong. They've resisted the treatment. The only course of action is to contain her and her hunger. Why not eliminate her?

I couldn't. You lured innocent people to their deaths, all in the name of love? Love sucks. I still cannot entirely fathom what I have done. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Alie Rubin, co-hosted Binge mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure, though it may not be happy to invite you not only only back to Jersey, back to Camp Lehi, but also to join us here on the ringer's nexus podcast feed

for all things fandom. Before we begin today, a few quick programming notes and reminders. There's a lot happening on the ringer verse feed right now. Earlier this week, I had the absolute pleasure of diving into Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings with the ringers Daniel Chin. So please check out that pod as well as Van and Charles instant ring. reaction pod to the film. As soon as you see the movie, we all loved it. The Midnight Boys, peop-poo! Also, of course, have their what-if episode five instant reaction pod up for you, as well as their first midnight mailbag. They're right there with you, the Midnight Riders in the content minds. That was really fun. Follow all of that, all of those conversations by following the

ring reverse on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, by following us across our social channels, Twitter, Instagram, join the Facebook group if you're not in there yet. And of course, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's episode will feature spoilers from what if's fifth episode. What If Zombies! So proceed with more caution than Hank did when entering the quantum realm. Some missteps there from Hank once again. Spoiler warning as well always for the entire MCO. You've been warned. Joining me today, now that he's finished explaining that the less pheromones you give off during the zombie apocalypse, the better. It's ringer head of content. Big picture podcast hosts. And the person I would most want to make a zombie

survival guide home video with Sean Fantasy. Hi, Mallory. It's interesting that you point out pheromones here at the top of this conversation because pheromones, of course, are a secondary sex characteristic, and I am sexless. And so I'm not totally sure how quickly or not quickly I would die at the hands of a zombie apocalypse, but maybe we'll get into that in this conversation. Yeah, I think the the Midnight Boys convoy of how long all of us would make it should the zombie apocalypse arrive is certainly something that we will be continuing here today on the episode. I would, I'd be, I'd be done for in a matter of minutes. Spoiler alert. Sean, I'm so glad to have you here today.

There are so many reasons that I wanted to do this podcast with you today. One is that I love chat with you, always, now and always. But a couple more specific reasons. We said before what if came out that we wanted to talk about what if, and this felt like the perfect episode and the perfect way to do so, not only because we get to talk about a really weird, spooky, fun episode of what if, but because that allows us to talk about a couple other things, too. Some Marvel Comics passion, which you carry deep in your heart from your youth all the way into the present day, and Marvel Horror, past, the present, and the future of Marvel Horror. And you, as a horror story lover, a cinephile in the world.

chief for the person I need here to guide me through this because I'm going to be real with you. I'm going to be real with you. I'm going to be real with your listeners. The listeners. I belong to you. This is your show, not mine. So hopefully they're yours and not mine. And if I'm taking them from you, I apologize. I loved this episode. In general, horror is not really my thing. You know, I dabble now and then, and there are some renderings of horror tales that I find more palatable and less distressing than others. But every now and then, in my youth, into my early adulthood, I would check out a horror tale, and then I wouldn't sleep for days, weeks, and I carry it with me still. so I need you here with me today to make it through the zombie horde.

Will you guide me? I'm happy to join you. I don't know why you're calling things horror tales. Like there's something you'd find in a dusty book in a cave in 1842. Good premise for a horror movie. It is, but this is an animated series. You know, it's featuring Marvel characters

who become zombies. You know, this isn't scary really, except if you're concerned that this might signal the future fate of some of the figures here, which is something I would like to talk to you about a little bit here on this show. Yeah, I always like to look into the crystal ball, you know, what harbingers await us and what might they foretell? Can I ask you before we dive further into this episode and what it might indicate about the future of Marvel?

How you're feeling about what if so far were five episodes in to a nine episode first season. So we are, you know, around the midway mark. How are you enjoying this broadly? Well, just pull back the curtain a little bit. I almost never ask onto podcasts on the Ringer Podcast Network. I don't like to do that. But I did say to you when this show was announced, I would love to talk to you about what if,

because I feel like what if is kind of a convergence of the things that you and I are interested in in these kinds of stories. Which is to say I'm interested in seeing animated Bucky Barnes shirtless and you're interested in all of the other stuff. I mean, I might be interested in that too. Who's to say? But more so, I don't have as much fealty to canon.

And the thematic core of hero storytelling is interesting to me, but not at the center of my interest of this stuff. For me, it's sacred. It is. And understandably so. And I think that's the case for many people. But for me, what if was always a fun book to read growing up, it was kind of as a comic book reader, a little bit of a cast off. It was not as collected, I felt like, as a lot of the other books, because it's not a core title. it was one that kind of had a stop and start history

over the years in Marvel. I always thought it was really fun if you grew up reading something like Choose Your Own Adventure, this sort of like, let's see which divergent paths our favorite figures could have taken. You know, it's probably best known for things like what if Dr. Doom would become a hero, for example. Or what if Spider-Man joined the Avengers?

These things that like we actually get to see now in real time in some of these movies, which is exciting. The show itself has been, I think a mixed back. And I would give it an incomplete grade at the moment, not because I've disliked it, but because I actually am waiting to see if they're going to work to incorporate the stakes of the story into the wider storytelling. Because if they don't, it would be the first time that they didn't take something that was

considered pure MCU canon and then didn't make it meaningful. I'm having a hard time as we get through more and more episodes, understanding how they're going to do that. From just a pure show perspective, it's fun. It's very entertaining. I think most of the episodes have been in the spirit of the comic, not all of them. And I'm surprised by how dark it is. It feels like truly the darkest thing that Marvel has ever made.

Yes, the last couple weeks in particular. And Banner Charles spent a while on the most recent Midnight Boys episode talking about that in particular. How dark, how heavy, how just utterly bleak. The focus of these last couple weeks has been... Interestingly, they've also been a couple of the more successful and gripping episodes. So that's one of the reasons that it's kind of fun to assess how maybe this might be applied more broadly. I'm glad you brought that point up in terms of how what we're seeing here might make its way into the wider MCU. Because I think for the bulk of what if so far, there have been clear moments or character developments where we can say,

Captain Carter coming back into the MCU just feels like a lock. Some of that is what we can just intuit as viewers. Some of that is what we can read in interviews from the what if creative team, right? Which we talked about in that episode. Then there are moments. I would put the end of this episode up there when we see, you know, Thanos Reus, the gauntlet,

but also like the end of episode two with Quill and the Dairy Queen where it just feels very clearly. And then the Captain Carter episode's conclusion would fall into that bucket too. We surely will return to this moment in this story, whether that is in season two of what if, or whether what happens inside season one of what if makes its way, much like the tentacles of the monster we have now seen a

couple times, into other Marvel franchises. This episode, though, and this is one of the things we're going to talk about in a few minutes, presented a few harbingers than that, And I think, like, allow us to reflect on that question of how what if might impact the MCU at large or how we perceive or even like ready for the MCU at large without necessarily needing to be literally the zombies or zombie hunters inside of this episode will appear in future installments. The kinds of questions they made us think about about Hank Pim and Hope in the quantum realm, for example, about vision and Wanda's relationship. They posed areas of introspection and reflection that I think have real bearing on the future of those characters in our OG timeline. And that's actually one of the things that I think is most interesting

about what if as a proposition, as a premise, that it unlocks something for you about the very nature of these characters. Not only because they're in a different circumstance, but specifically because they are in a different circumstance, what is the constant amid that change and what might that tell us about how the characters who we have already spent time with

will behave? So I really liked this episode for that reason, and I'm excited to talk about that a little bit more as we go. How did you feel about episode five specifically? Where does it rank for you among the five so far? And what did you enjoy about it? I liked it quite a bit,

but I liked it in the way that I like to go to the restaurant Houston's. Houston's is a very dependable American franchise chain of restaurants. Don't I know it? I've heard Amanda Dobbins talk about it, you know? Amanda Dobbins, my co-host and the big picture turned me on to it. It's very popular in the South. We have a few here in California.

Houston's is not surprising. It's quite predictable and it's quite consistent. And its menu is a bit of a melange. It takes classic American pub food. It takes sort of Japanese and sushi onto the menu. Bring some Mexican influence onto the menu. It's just this sort of like hodgepodge of like really high-end bar food. And zombie movies are the same way.

It's really hard at this point to get me surprised by a zombie story. I have seen every zombie story. I love zombie movies. I love horror movies, as you noted. So it's tricky. And frankly, this movie or this show, I should say, is not. not making an attempt to do anything terribly new. It's actually a full-time riff, a commentary on zombie stories.

Now, where it intersects with the Marvel characters and where they fit into the long-term storytelling, I think is kind of interesting. To your point that you were just making, the thing I've been thinking about a lot is, is it not that the events of what if are meaningful, but the figures that they keep returning to and spotlighting are really just an effort to remind us, hey, don't sleep on Hank Pim. in Marvel comics, Hank Pim is one of the 25 most important characters they've ever created and is at the center of a lot of big time storytelling. And you might have forgotten about him because he is a secondary character in, like,

no offense to the Amman films, which I really like, but like a third tier rung of those class of movies. And now we've seen Hank and the Wasp and that whole storyline and family really be at the center of two of these episodes. Yep. And now we're waiting on Quantummania and all that other stuff. you know, pushing toward that. You mentioned the tentacled creature,

and there's a lot of speculation about what that creature is. Sure seems like that creature is going to play a part in the storytelling in the near future. So I think whenever I watch one of these episodes, and this was true for the zombies one in particular, but zombies, that's an irreversible condition.

So whatever happens in this episode cannot happen, really. No, you're saying you don't think it is? So you just handwave the pursuit of the cure? I mean, we see that vision restores Scott's head inside of its jar, you know? That's true.

We hear him say that the reason it's not working on Wanda is because her power is too strong, which even that was like, oh, that's not just a throwaway line. That makes us think about how the Mindstone also, I don't even want to say anymore, created Wanda because we learn in Wanda Vision. And we said, again, MCU-wide spoilers here, but I'll just like say that one more time, that it's more that the Mindstone unlocked what was already inside of Wanda. You know, Agatha has that line about how it amplified what other. otherwise would have died on the vine. So like, what if it's so fast-paced and there are so many

little moments like that that can become rabbit holes, both in terms of looking backward and looking ahead? But the cure thing, I mean, Peter, the cloak, shouts to the cloak of levitation, now and always, to Chala and Scott, when they're on their way to Wakanda with the minestone. And, of course, like that, that heart-sinking moment when we as viewers see that it is not in fact a sanctuary free of the virus, as Akoye said it would be. Thanos is there and everyone inside appears to have turned. It is devastating, I thought, specifically because we believed a cure was possible. So here's the thing.

But I'm an optimist, you know? Once you become a zombie, in my understanding of zombie canon, now there are many interpretations and we're going to talk about those interpretations, and we can pick a lot of nits throughout this episode. but your body, your corporeal form begins to rot. You begin to rot. And if you begin to rot and you are cured, your rot is not restored. You're still rotting.

And if you're rotting, how do your organs work again? This makes no sense. So whatever, you know, obviously we're in a magical world with people who have powers and anything is believable at this stage. So trying to apply the notions of science and logic to some of these stories is foolhardy. And I don't want to do that necessarily. However, zombie movies where people get cured and not into it. Don't just don't.

Zombie movies are about the inevitability of mortality, about the unceasing quest towards death. That that is ultimately what that metaphor tells us, that we will not escape this, and that you can use it to tell stories about race or class or privilege or the exertion of power upon people or the sense that things are enclosing upon you, or just the sense of sort of body horror

and the sickness that comes over you when you become a zombie. Zombie movies are some of the most fungible storytelling frameworks that we have. And they're a lot of fun for that reason. There's a reason why they never expire because you can kind of reiterate upon them many, many, many times. But they are a negative class of film and television. They are about how we are screwed. And so I never thought there was a cure

and there isn't a cure. That's my take. Wow. Are we not screwed? Do you feel screwed? This is tapping into one of my favorite things about podcasting, ma'am. You know, we're never just talking about the art. We're talking about life, you know, an existential dread and the meaning of it all. And you latched on clearly to the rot, the carnage, the complete and total absence of a way forward.

And, you know, I held on to Peter. point of view, that Colonel of Hope, even amid the sea not only of zombies, but of unceasing, seemingly unceasing, despair. And that was one of the things I liked about the episode, that even though it was quite grim, it was thrilling and fun and kind of sweet amid the scariness and the despair. I thought it was at times quite intense in its messaging. You're certainly right. Even something like The Watcher saying, ironically, it was the Avengers heroism that sealed humanity's fate. I like that. Is a really great moment because it is a zombie bite to a decade plus of our experience as viewers.

And what we have grown accustomed to believing is unflinching and assured amid all of the challenges that our characters face. I liked the way that the episode carried on some nice OGMCU timeline themes. Just one example, and there were many, but one of the ones I really enjoyed was Peter's readiness to assume the mantle, to inherit the mantle specifically from the heroes who came before him. You know, a moment like Peter saying, you think I can pull it off when he has the cloak on and Hope saying, maybe you'll grow into it. Or Peter saying, I don't think I can lose another friend today. And Bruce saying, so avenge us. The Peter in this timeline and this universe in this episode is not the exact same Peter that we watched in Homecoming and far from home and that we're about to watch in No Way Home, though he could certainly be in No Way Home, given the multiversal nature of that movie,

which is kind of fun to think about. But that theme is going to consistent with what our Peter experienced and reflected on in Far From Home when he's thinking about the weight of Tony's mantle and the Avenger mantle. So I loved that. I also really liked this episode contained one of my favorite MCU tricks, which is new surprising pairings, putting characters together that you wouldn't really expect to see together in a given setting and having it just delight you right away. My favorite example of this, always is Thor and the Guardians in Infinity War, which was just instant crackling cinematic magic.

And I don't think anything in this episode quite approached that, how could it? But even when we first see the Avengers in San Francisco, it's Hawkeye Nat, Captonian, Tichala. That was so interesting. Not only because we think, wait, how exactly would that have come to be off of the heels of the events that we saw

in our timeline in Civil War? and maybe it's as simple as they make their piece sooner because there's a zombie apocalypse and they have to. But I like the way it makes us think of stuff like that. You know, the New York into Jersey survival squad is Peter and Kurt, Sharon, happy, Bucky, Akoye, Bruce, Hope, the cloak. It's like seeing Kurt there with that group was just such a riot. I loved Happy.

I mean, tough stuff for Happy eventually in this episode, but I loved how he got some Zingers in there. You know, well, just what you thought things couldn't get? get any worse. We got to go to Jersey. That was so wonderful. And then again, on the jet, it's Tichala and Peter and Scott's head in a jar and the cloak. So just really enjoyed all of that balance. And I thought the episode was really fun. I had been looking forward to seeing the zombie episode ever since it was teased. And I think it's my favorite episode so far. I'll hold off on locking in my final order until the season is concluded. But I think right now,

five and two are my favorites. I would put four next, even though there were a couple things that I didn't love about four, which I talked about last week on House of Midnight. But overall, I found the emotional impact of that episode to be something that stuck with me. And then I'd probably go three, one after that. But I have enjoyed them all on the whole. And this one was fun, I think in part because it just gave us so many talking points and so many things to dive into, including that Van Charles examination of who here in the ringerverse would bite it first, or I guess get bitten first more accurately, in the zombie apocalypse. So let's continue their conversation. Which of us is out first? I think that it's a wrap

for me in just a number of minutes. You know, I want to say and I want to believe. I would be driven so fully by my desire to protect Halo, number one. And I just feel in general, like if I've got, you know, beef jerky and some trail mix, if I know Halo's safe and with me, I can do anything. But in reality, don't think I would make it. Don't think I'm equipped to make it. I think you are there at the end. You're one of the people receiving the cure or disseminating the cure, though you don't believe in cures.

you're one of the last standing. I'm like Rick from the Walking Dead. Like I almost get to the finish line. Okay. So one, I agree generally with your rankings of the series. Two was my favorite episode thus far. For the reason that you underlined about this episode, too, I thought the pairing and just seeing sequences with Tchalla and Yandu and Thanos talking to each other.

I was like, give me more of this stuff. This is the point of this show is to put us in unusual situations that otherwise never would have happened. So I'm digging that. As far as the zombie apocalypse goes, first 39 years of my life, I agree with you. Here are some things about me. One, I needed very little sleep. I could thrive on four to five hours of sleep in night. I will frequently stay up very late at night watching movies and catching up on my work.

Two, I can survive with little sustenance. I very rarely eat lunch. I have very small breakfasts. I don't, I'm not a big eater, I would say in general. Three, I was once somewhat athletic. I played sports. I am coordinated. I know how to run.

I know how to... Four, I'm strategic. I know how to organize safety for myself. Okay. Five, I've seen every zombie movie. Right. You're like Peter in that way. You're prepared because of your A.V.

Club experience. Yes. It might take me a couple of days to figure out what kind of zombies that we are up against here. Are they Romero zombies? Are they Danny Boyle zombies? Are they Kirkman zombies? Who knows? You need to find out. Absolutely. But I'd be able to find out. I have the knowledge. You're a scholar. Yes. You're forgetting a sixth. What is that? You're a Jets, Mets, and Nix fan. So every day is already the apocalypse for you. It's a very good point. I have survived pain in many forms for many years. So here's the thing that happened.

had a child, my wife and I had her first child. And ever since that's happened, my body has died. I cannot thrive in the way that I once could. I need more sleep. I need more food. I am more distractible. And also, I'm not only thinking about the self. In order to survive, you have to be selfish. And now my whole life is not about me. It's about the other people in my life. And it's really honestly all I care about. Yeah. That's part of why you would make it, because you're fighting for something bigger. No, I would be fighting to the death, trying to protect someone as opposed to fleeing, which is what one needs to do. You would not hesitate to throw Chris Ryan into a zombie horde if it bought you in your family time. You wouldn't hesitate. And that's why you

would last. The only fitful death for me would be to become zombieified by. Chris Ryan. He has been making me a kind of zombie to the world for many, many decades now. So that would be fitting. But I think you underrate yourself. I think you underrate your

survival instincts. I think you also underrate the low simmering rage just under the surface that you could channel if you wanted to. I think there's something deeper. There's a force of will that you're neglecting. Because

you're such a, you're such a good person. You're such a kind person. You're such a positive and forward-thinking person. You want things to work out. But back against the wall, I think you got this. I'm weirdly flattered by that. It's true. You just got to kill some freaking zombies.

Oh, man. Let's talk about killing zombies. Let's dive a little deeper into some of the plot developments and some of the mythology that unfolded inside of episode five. Can we talk about the zombie rules? Because of course, this is essential, like step one or one of the first steps, at least, in any zombie tale. You must establish the rules of the universe.

And we get some of that directly shared with us. Peter's survival guide, helpful. We learn about how the virus is transferred through saliva later when vision is debriefing with Bruce and co at Camp Lehigh. We learn more about the nature of the way the virus affects the brain, the limbic system, etc. But we first absorb the rules of the universe via osmosis as we watch Tony, Tony, Strange, and Wong appear in New York with all of their powers and many of their faculties intact. This was very surprising to me. And then this is the case across,

the episode. Obviously, Wanda is able to use her chaos magic. We see Thanos proudly and boldly raised the gauntlet with five of the Infinity Stones in it. The characters who become zombies are still able to use their tech. Do you think that's, is that something you would, you would say as a nitpick for you? Or do you just say, those are the rules of the universe. And so I'm good with it. Let me just say at the top, I love the beginning of this episode, because probably my favorite moment in all Marvel movies is that first showdown between Tony, Wong, Strange, etc., when Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maugh touched down on Earth. I love that sequence so much.

You're embarrassing me in front of the Wizards, dude. It's one of my favorite Marvel lines ever. It's kind of everything you want from a story like this. Like it touches on the sci-fi, the fantasy, the magic, the earthbound stuff. the comedy, the action, you get Spider-Man in the mix, you get the pain and the torture of the whole character.

You get so many perfect little touches. That sequence feels like kind of an episode of what if unto itself. So I love that they open the show like that. You know, I did think that Van and Charles really put their finger on this when they discussed it on the show. The first time I saw this,

I was like, this makes no sense. An Iron Man zombie does not work. That doesn't, that's illogical. Zombies are literally brain dead. On the other hand, I thought Van, after working through it, came to a reasonable conclusion. I wonder if you agreed with it, which is that these powers and these skills are so second nature as to be walking that you could just replicate them, even if you had become zomified. I'm willing to buy that for the sake of suspension of disbelief in the episode.

However, in general, I thought it was too much of a stretch. Yeah, the things that we see them doing, you know, Tony using his suit, his arm, using his repulsors, Strange and Wong using their sling rings to make portals to work the mystic arts, Sam flying the exo falcon suit, Wanda using her chaos magic,

on and on the list goes. That's advanced. That's more than just this has become the nature of the way these characters live their lives. The only thing I could really latch on to after rewatching it, and let me say this,

and state this for the record. A little disclosure here. I'm not a neurologist. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist, and I don't know what I'm talking about in this respect. So if this isn't correct, I apologize. However... Did you lie about your neurology degree

when you applied at the ringer? You did, didn't you? Oh, God. The limbic system. Vision says that the virus overloads the limbic system specifically. the limbic system response is the key to how

maybe they are able to maintain their other faculties, I guess, because that is the survival instinct that is infected, like the need to feed, the need to fight. And so maybe if it is hyper-targeted to the limbic system, other parts of the brainer.

That ain't zombie stuff, man. Come on. We're not, we're not, like, there's too much science. zombies are, I'll tell you my personal preference. I want them moving slow. I want them brain dead. I want them endlessly approaching. That is what I want out of my zombies.

Save it for the zombies superlatives, man. You're going to get to pick some of your faves, you know? You're right. I just, you know, you shouldn't be able to use a lasso if you're a zombie. That doesn't make sense. Just putting that out there. That said, once you accept the logic of the episode, I feel like it's fine. One more, okay, one more logic, big picture logic of the episode rule.

of the universe question before we move on. This one bothered me. I'm going to say that. Okay. If you were actively in pursuit of a cure, stop killing your friends. What is everyone doing? Now, some of the characters

do not go for the head. And we do learn, I mean, this is, of course, zombie canon, logic, and mass, but we do specifically here in this episode, got to go for the head, right? Thanos would be so proud. Should have gone for the head. Got to go for the head.

But Bucky, for example, Cap and Bucky shield toss back in a train, so many familiar hallmarks of Marvel past, Bucky cuts Stephen half. And I'm assuming that the top half of zombie Steve Rogers and the bottom half of zombie Steve Rogers are still crawling around on those train tracks because Bucky did not go for the head.

Okoye Tears Sam in half, brain and all Sharon blows up Happy's head with a repulser Hope explodes Sharon in full

etc etc etc those people are dead and the things that the characters say in response are pretty weird like about Sam for example Okoye says that was your friend

Sorry about that. And Bucky says, I should be sad, but I'm not. Why not? I think you have to accept that in a zombie story, you have to kill your friends.

But these characters believe they are minutes away from a cure. Yeah, but what's the alternative? That's why they don't kill hope. Now, she has not turned yet. She is not attacking them in that moment. And I understand that that's a distinction.

But this struck me as cold. Let's go back to season two of the Walking Dead for a second. Okay. My favorite character on the Walking Dead and one of my favorite actors of all times, John Bernthal. He played Shane on the Walking Dead. This is a devastating one. Yeah.

And if you haven't seen The Walking Dead, I suppose you should fast forward, but this episode aired like 10 years ago, so settle down. And Shane was an amazing counterpoint to Rick on this series. And ultimately, Rick had to kill Shane because Shane had lost control and he was creating danger for everyone around him trying to survive in this apocalypse. And then Shane got reanimated. made it as a zombie. And then Carl had to kill the zombie shame.

This was a very traumatic episode. Really, really one of the best episodes of the show, maybe the best episode. Frankly, I lost a lot of interest in the Walking Dead storytelling after Shane left the show, although I kept watching. But this is an example of what you have to do to survive in zombie town.

You've got to kill your friends. This is a rule. You've got to live by that rule. That's all I'm saying. I'm a little less interested in spending the zombie apocalypse with you than I was 30 seconds ago. Tushay, too-shay. Speaking of...

I am strategic. You are. You are. It's true. It's a cold calculus, but I respect it, I suppose. Speaking of attempting to survive the zombie apocalypse, I want to talk for a few minutes about Peter's very handy survival guide. So you want to survive the zombie apocalypse, a home video.

I loved so much about this. Peter making movies is a part of the Tom Holland, Peter Parker, M-C-U-Expeer. experience. If you expand more broadly to photography, that's obviously a part of the Peter Parker Canon at large. It's handy because we get some of the rules. Step one, long sleeves, virus transfers via saliva, cover up. Step two, hygiene. This led to the just marvelous Bucky Barn's shower sequence. Step three, always aim for the head. That's the only way to kill him. And then later, we learn that there's actually another crucial step, Sean, and it's hope. I want to know that I want you to bring a little big picture energy here to the ringerverse today,

and I want you to review Peter Parker's filmmaking prowess. This is a movie that everyone who's hoping to make it is going to need to see. So, you know, I think Peter is in a long line of gifted NYC O'Tors. You know, he's following in the footsteps of Martin Scorsese, of Jim Jarmish, of Spike Lee. You know, he knows from whence he came. I think it's, this is also a tried and true tactic in a zombie. film. Actually, Romero himself in Diary of the Dead, for example,

uses a similar strategy to tell the story. This is when found footage movies were very big. So, this is a kind of found footage trope that we're finding in this horror episode of what if. You know, Peter, I think he's more of a DIY

man on the street kind of filmmaker. I don't get the impression that Feigey's going to drop the bag for Peter anytime soon. I don't know, though. He is such an admirer of the blockbuster. You know, if we think back to the iconic Empire Strikes Back reference that he made in Captain America's Civil War leading to the incredible exchange between Rodi and Tony. Jesus, Tony, how old is this guy? I don't know.

I didn't carpentate him. I love that so much. No matter how many times I watch that, that makes me laugh. And then, of course, aliens when he's getting rid of Ebony Maugh through the side of the ship. Peter wants to be making the big budget IP fair. And I think he has what it takes. Peter is a child, Mallory. And that's actually the problem with Hollywood,

is we're giving these young filmmakers, these big, bold IP opportunities. Some of them are living up, but some of them are falling flat on their face. So don't be like that, Peter Parker. Make 10 movies first, then take on your IP project. That's my advice to you as an admirer.

That's beautiful. If we were in the world with Peter, what would our Peter home video Kairons have been? Because all of the characters who were a part of this zombie hunting squad with Peter, you know, they get,

not all of them, but many of them get these little, these cards where we see their nicknames and we see their skills. I thought very rudely, instead of having the word skills, Kurtz just says, Kurt, colon, instead of skills, colon,

that was mean and uncalled for. But I want to know what your Kiron would be. Maybe skill would be soulless in the land of the dead. Something to that effect, undermining my stoic nature. Yours would be frantic but passionate over preparer.

Something to that effect. Yeah. Well, again, that makes it sound like I'm well suited for the apocalypse, I think. We also need nicknames, though, because they all have the nickname. So I think mine would be like,

Mallory, does DoorDash work in the apocalypse, Rubin? Something like that. That's part of why I would make it, man. Without the delivery apps. I don't know what I would do. Skills, binge watching, cat cuddling, t-shirt collecting. I don't think I have any skills, honestly. As I look back on my life, you know, in the face of mortality,

I think I'm just just another boring white man, you know? Just luck in the draw. Got a break and hopefully doesn't die by the hands of the zombie. That's really my hope. You have a lot of skills. You'd be able to quote so many movies to keep people interested and inspired and engaged. Think of the number of Zach Wilson and Jacob de Grom statistics you'd be able to throw out as people were traversing across the land. I got to say, whenever I do that in real life and in our

non-zombie times, every single person I know in my life tunes out. So if maybe boring the zombies to death, if that is a skill, maybe I could do that by reciting the data points about my favorite people on Earth who are participants in losing teams. Otherwise, I don't know, my Kiron would be pretty boring, frankly. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

Speaking of sometimes boring, but absolutely elemental characters, we got to talk about Hank Pim for a minute. You teased this earlier. What is what if trying to tell us and trying to prime us for with Hank and hope and the quantum realm? Because as you noted, Hank is the cause or at least directly involved in the cause? of Avengers-centric mayhem in two of the five episodes that we have seen so far, episode three and episode five. And there's a big hope factor in both of those two.

You know, remember the it's all about hope line and revealed impetus in episode three. Here, Hope says, I was so obsessed with bringing my mom back that I never considered what I might bring back with her. And that was one of those moments that made me think, okay, even if in the rest of phase four, we don't get, let's say, live action Marvel zombies, right? That kind of line and that kind of idea, the role that Hope and Hank and the quantum realm we're playing feels like it will have a consequential

and maybe even massive bearing on what is to come. So something like that quote, I never considered what I might bring back, made me think of the larger quantum realm portents. Kang we know is coming is central to quantum mania. Also, this one might be a real, real, real, real, real, real reach. But there's beacon language in this episode. Beacon talk in Shang-chi.

We're thinking about beacons a lot over the last few days as MCU fans. What do you think the MCU is trying to ready us for? I mean, candidly, I don't know. Hank Pim in comic book history is often considered one of the smartest men who's ever lived. And there was an era of Marvel characters who were first and foremost defined by their intelligence and not their powers. Reed Richards was able to stretch and bend his arms and legs and neck. But he was really considered the smartest man on Earth. Victor von Doom simultaneously was the perfect foil to him because of his incredible kind of

world-conquering intelligence. Tony Stark, of course, is a genius. Bruce Banner is a genius. These characters are brilliant. And Hank Pym is basically on the level. He is a true scientist. You know, in the films, he's been positioned as sort of like a former consultant for Shield. And I'm wondering what, if any, like, secret wars, kind of like integration could be coming here with Nick Fury and Hank. The other thing, this is kind of a grim thing to say, but it's true. Michael Douglas is very old. And I don't know how much longer he can make these films. So I wonder if they're trying to kind of like foreground one of the last big Hank Pim

Ant Man-centric stories while they still can do that. Obviously, Scott is Ant-Man to us. But Pim is such a central figure. I thought making him a villainous figure in episode three was interesting. He has had moments where his intelligence kind of drove him to mania in the past in the books. and so there might be, that might be, I don't know, just stretching towards something that he might do, you know, becoming Giant Man or Goliath or one of these other figures

that he's become in the books over the years. I'm not really totally sure. I generally, you know, I somewhat disparaged where I put kind of Ant Man in the hierarchy of the Marvel movies. I love those movies. I love Peyton Reed as a director. I think those are really fun and entertaining movies. And they always were the ground level version.

They're kind of the closest we, we've gotten to a true daredevil movie because Scott was a criminal, you know, a low-level criminal in the films. And obviously the second film starts to elevate beyond that, going into the quantum realm. Quantum mania, I expect to be kind of crazy and psychedelic. So I'm excited about that. Central to the multiverse plot and especially with Kang being in that movie. And I think we can, you know, we talked about this a lot in the wake of Loki, but being present across many MCU installments to come.

That was what I was thinking about here with the characters, but just the quantum realm more broadly, that this is, and of course, this has already happened. Like, you know, the PIM particles in Quantum Realm, when you don't have endgame

in the time heist without that. So we've been readying for this for quite some time, but I think that that's going to be inextricable from much of what unfolds over the rest of Phase 4, and that's some of what we saw here and have seen in what if,

gets us thinking about that in a kind of intriguing way. Similarly, that question of what is, what if trying to prime us for with Wanda and vision is not new, but it is reinforced and enhanced with what we see here. You know, the question of will these characters be heroes or villains moving forward or whether that kind of either or is just too reductive for this duo is, I think, really interesting vision. I mean, this was, this was dark, this part of the episode. Vision can cure the virus using the stone, can't cure Wanda because her power is too strong. And so instead of eliminating her,

he lures other characters to Camp Lehigh to feed her and keep her alive. He is feeding his zombie bride, pieces of Techala. That reveal is brutal. That was actually in the true spirit of a horror movie.

That was the one moment where I was like, yes, this actually is what horror movies are. It's something that is this kind of disconcerting and unnerving, you know? And even before the actual reveal,

that was the moment where I felt the most dread when he's, you don't want to go looking for what you're looking for when Bucky is setting out to, in pursuit of transit.

We have this just mounting, like your heart starts to race and you're getting kind of like sweaty. Something really bad and foul is about to unfold. And sure enough, it did. Even after Vision dies, you know, he pulls out the mindstone on his own,

which raises really interesting questions, I think about why it didn't happen that way in our Infinity War, because, of course, Wanda and the role she has to play in the stone destruction shaped so much of what that unfolds in Wanda vision. But I was really struck by the moment when zombie Wanda goes over to vision, and it's like even their corpses are drawn to each other.

And that question of the collateral damage of their devotion and their love has been very present, even in moments of real empathy and affection, in both Wanda Vision and what if? And the characters here expressed a lot of overt judgment, which was obviously important. You know, Ocoye asked why he didn't eliminate her if he couldn't cure her, and he just says, I couldn't. And Bruce chastises him for luring innocent people in the name of love. That's not a one-to-one, but it's very similar to the events of Wanda Vision where Wanda imprisoned the citizens of Westview as she worked through her own grief and trauma.

Ultimately, when he sacrifices himself here, because he can't bring himself to leave her, even though he knows he needs to give the other characters the mindstone, it's too late. It's too late to stop her. And they don't all get away from that moment. And I think that also ties back to Hope in this episode and to Dr. Strange in episode four. You know, Hope says she has to fix the mess that she started from her pursuit to bring her mother back. Again, not the same, but Strange's obsession with trying to save Christine in episode four of What If was driven by love, but was misguided and wrong and deeply harmful, ultimately, to everybody else. And so I thought that was really interesting, too, in terms of that larger question of,

what are we being primed here for with the rest of phase four? What kind of questions does what if want us to be asking? And, you know, lastly on that front, I thought that there was a potentially interesting meta quality to all of this. Like, is there a way to read this that it is reminding us as viewers and consumers of the MCU, that we have to be able to let go a little bit of the MCU as we knew it, in order to embrace and ready for the MCU that's about to unfold, which will not be the same. Let me ask you a really simple and direct question.

Do you care about Wanda and Vision? I do, yes. I have come to care about them more and more over the years. Returning to, you know, for Benjamin, Marvel, returning to the entire series, I was really struck and moved by the event. of Infinity War, and it mostly was Wanda Vision, because you see the absolute longing and yearning and despair that they feel in the absence of being able to be together, and I thought

that was quite moving. So I am invested. I think also part of it is just like as a practical MCU viewer, I know that Wanda's just going to be a huge part of what's to come, and that heightens my interest in investment. Yeah, I mean, I think we're all who care about this sort of thing are anticipating Wanda as the primary villain in multiverse of madness, right? She seems to have been teed up, at least in part, by the end of the Wanda Vision series, and the expectation that, you know, she has a kind of Phoenix-esque persona in the MCU right now, a little power mad, a little, you know, driven by a kind of grief and confusion around the events of her life. I'll just say, like, as characters, Scarlet Witch has always been a tough character to tell stories about

because she is so powerful. And Vision is a blank slate. and they got a big story. They got a big three-hour story at the beginning of this MCU television storytelling. So to me, I guess I'm not necessarily as excited to be spending more time with that story in the near future because there's so much to do.

There's so many stories to tell. And they really feel like they're on the precipice of this, a really exciting moment. I think kind of regardless of how you feel about Black Widow and the introduction of Yolena or a U.S. agent or everything that they did in Shang-Chi and the expectation that he's going to be such a significant part of the storytelling. And we've got Blade, which we'll talk about.

And at some point, X-Men and Fantastic Four will happen. And there's so much in front of us. The idea of, like, building a whole new storyline around Wanda and Vision, I'm kind of like, okay, this is an android and an all-powerful witch. We saw the story. You know, they certainly got short shrift, I think, in the Avengers storytelling, which many people have pointed out, that they were really ancillary characters who then got thrust into the forefront.

But I'm a little bit less excited. about that being a big part of the storytelling. But maybe that's also just the testament of my lack of relationship to those characters having read the books over the years. I just didn't care as much. Now, if they want a retcon, you know, Pietro and Wanda

into the Magneto storyline, then I'm more interested. That actually always made more sense to me. But we'll see if that happens as we get in more multiversal. I can't wait for that. I'm still holding out hope. It could happen. We really got dunked on by Wanda.

vision, though. I mean, they really kind of made a fool out of us with that one. Yeah, but I don't know. I'm still coming off the high of Loki and getting, he who remains, and believing again that anything is possible. And when will we be introduced to the X Gene Willicom from one of these alternate universes inside of the multiverse? Perhaps there are so many, so many possibilities. It is this vast sea of possibility, as the watchers always telling us. That's, I think, just one of the things that's so exciting about where we are in the MCU right now, we are those still so early in phase four that we can't help but think about the infinity saga in phases one through three. And that was one of the things I was curious to

just quickly ask you about, were there any things that you latched onto or had trouble shaking in terms of the how did thing X, whatever it might be, from our Infinity War timeline, still happen or happen differently if these other things changed around it? Did any of those really, like, get their claws or their zombie teeth into you? Or was it the entire episode just, hey, there's a zombie apocalypse, this whole thing is different. I'm not worrying about how Thanos got the timestone or why Bucky chose to leave Wakanda. I wasn't watching it very closely for things like that. I haven't been watching, what if in that specific way.

I'll say the, like, appearance and prevalence of Sharon, I thought was kind of interesting. Especially because of what we saw happen with her in Falcon and Winter Soldier and the way that she was kind of repositioned after that. I think maybe we felt like she's helping to assemble like the Thunderbolts or something like that in the aftermath of that show. But in this series, she's very much in hero mode. And so I don't really know what or who she is to Marvel right now. Yeah, I was wondering about her too.

Is she not on the run in this universe after the events of Civil War like she wasn't ours? Or was she, but everybody basically had to band together and forget their individual circumstances because it is quite literally the zombie apocalypse, maybe. But yeah, that one stood out too. The one I was wondering about most, I think, I did find myself thinking about how exactly Thanos got infected and what the sequence of events was with the time stone, because of course he's in Wakanda with five of the stones. The mine stone is not there yet, like it is in infinity, or maybe he knows it's coming there and he's just waiting for it. But I found myself actually wondering about Thor and Groot and Rocket because, of course, in our Infinity War, they arrive.

Stormbreaker in hand. Did they arrive here and get turned? Have they not come yet? Are they about to? Where are they? So that's the question I had. One thing about that that I thought was interesting, I haven't actually read this book, but I read up about it a little bit.

There was a Marvel Zombies story told at one point in the comics. In that story, even Galactus, the world devouring. celestial power was affected by the zombies, was infected by the zombies, if I recall correctly. And so it kind of, the only thing that did

is reading up on that made me realize that, like, they actually could have gone even bigger. It's like if Thanos is, is open and available to a zombie bite, and this is an intergalactic,

airborne, toxic event, then who knows how, it could have been as big as all the universe is imaginable. Inside of the episode that we got, since we know it's transferred by saliva, I just can't help but wonder who got to bite Thanos.

What an achievement. What an achievement. Maybe that character would be the MVP of the episode if we knew, but we don't know. So absent that knowledge, I'm going to go a little lightning around here at the end before we shift to Marvel Horror. Who's your MVP of this episode?

Well, I'm just such a fan of Peter. I love Peter so much. And Peter obviously gets to be a sort of narrator for this episode. I feel like they've done such a good job with Tom Holland. I think you guys very rightfully, one in Midnight Court. I'm very proud of you. I like all the Spider-Man films. You know, Peter was pretty good. It was nice to see Happy again. Happy was, that was pretty fun. And, you know, Fabro being the favorite son at Disney these days, not surprised he circled back for

this one. Who else did I enjoy? I'm going with the cloak of levitation. Oh, that's good. That's a good call. Amazing showing from the cloak, as always, saves basically everyone from Bruce to Peter, involved in the decapitation of Wong, which is admittedly tough stuff. But other than that, just remarkable showing from the cloak of levitation. You know the other thing too about this

and we'll get into this when we talk about Marvel horror, but I'll just cite this right here. It's a good thing that they had Banner in this episode because the Incredible Hulk is one of the all-time horror stories ever told. It is a natural fusion of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And that is true Kronenbergian body horror

what happens to Banner when he's infected with gamma rays. And the best parts of that storytelling are about that overwhelming, physical and emotional and spiritual destruction that he has to endure in order to balance himself

throughout this story. So I thought it was fitting that he was a part of this story. I'm glad he was. I've always been a little somewhat confused, and obviously it's informed by the fact that there were two Hulk movies before the MCU really truly properly got on its feet.

But there's a bigger and better story to tell, whether it's Planet Hulk or whether comes through the She-Hulk series or whatever it is, there's a big Hulk story to tell here. It's interesting because they put so many elements of Planet Hulk into Ragnarok with everything that happens on Saccar. But obviously, that's a all-time arc as is World War Hulk. And, you know, I personally find the Norton Incredible Hulk movie to be better than many people give it credit for. It's okay. Obviously agree that ever since Mark Ruffalo's Bruce entered the MCU, it's been wonderful to have Hulk in the MCU in that capacity,

but we all, I think, collectively, have just been longing for a standalone Hulk saga. Hopefully we get it. It doesn't sound like we will. It doesn't sound like we will. One thing that's interesting about that character in particular is I feel like there's kind of two generations now of fans. Of course, there are hardcore fans who know everything about everything.

But for the most part, I think you have people who are a little bit older like myself who are rooted in the comics. And, you know, a lot of friends of this show are the same way. and then there are people who are like primarily experts on the MCU and the MCU storytelling. And the Hulk occupies this weird kind of dead zone, nether zone, where in the comics he is a signature character.

He's a top 10 character. In the films, even though he's had his own standalone film in this series of stories, even just seeing Abomination in Chongchi, I was like, wow, what a throwaway for one of the signature villains for one of the signature characters. Like, they're almost making fun of it. And it's funny the way that he's been positioned

inside of this storytelling. I'm curious to see what role he plays in Shee Hulk. That'll be fascinating. Blotsky back, baby. Can't wait. That fucker, Emil. Kill of the episode. Did you have a favorite?

There were so many. I actually just got confused. Who got sliced in half? Sam got, yeah, Sam got pulled in half. Sam, that was, I was like, is this really a Marvel TV show when that happened? That was great. That was great.

So was Sharon. Hope flies inside. of Sharon and explodes her, which was revolting. What I loved about that, that also felt a little bit like a speaking to the fans moment, because as you surely recall, heading into endgame, one of the most rampant popular fan theories was Scott that Ant Man would fly inside of Thanos. Right, right. And explode him.

Why did he not do that? I don't know, man. They had to let Quill fuck it all up instead, you know? One in 14 million. I guess it just wasn't the one in 14 million. That's why. My Gamora. My pick is Tony for Kill of the episode.

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact, even though it was early, that Hope decapitates Tony, after leading a swarm of flesh-eating ants into that brawl in general, hope decapitates Tony, and then one of her aunts eats his head. That is a thing that happened in this episode. That was pretty great. Gobbled up his head. And Tony, by the way, has died in two of the five What-if episodes. Yeah, well, I mean, they could just keep killing him over and over again at this point because

RDJ not coming back anytime soon. So have at it, I guess. He's grist for the mill, so to speak. Remember in Far From Home, we got that little moment with a zombie Iron Man during the Peter Mysterio illusion sequence? Yes. That was fun to say back on. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think this. I think the soul of Tony Stark will haunt the MCU for the next 10 years. And he'll be back. I mean, it would be stunning if he didn't come back for something. Invariably, it will be, you know, kind of a post-credit sequence or something like that where we actually see him. But he can't stay away.

I mean, could you imagine being Iron Man and being Robert Downey Jr. right now and being, I mean, is anyone more beloved in all of Hollywood than Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man? Great question. Literally. He's the person who has created the most happiness, I think, for more people. that see movies than anyone in a decade. And that sounds a little bit preposterous, but like the success of Infinity War and Endgame,

that's mainstream movie going in the last 10 years. You're right. Cheers to Iron Man. On the other end of the spectrum, from generational achievement to, boy, you really shouldn't have done that. What was the worst character decision of the episode? A lot of people did dumb things.

What's your pick here? Just from an emotional level, I just feel like feeding to Chala to zombie vision. or as a zombie Wanda was pretty morally reprehensible. Yeah, that was terrible. I know he's an android, but Jesus Christ, you know, have a little bit of feeling. That was horrifying. It's clearly that.

That's obviously the pick. Vision says the only course of action is to contain her and her hunger. Absolutely terrible. I think there are a few other contenders here. Not killing hope, even though they knew she was turning. I understood, you know, they feel like they're nearing the cure. But within that, you can't let hope. turn into a zombie while she is in giant form.

Can't let that happen. That was stupid. That was dangerous. Everyone's got to be a little bit better than that. I will also throw out a near miss. Terrifyingly, astoundingly, Bruce Banner's odd when he realizes what the Mindstone can do is to broadcast the Mindstone signal via satellite across the entire world. What could have gone wrong if they had tried that?

I mean, I think we know from the MCU storytelling that even the smartest men in the universe are pretty stupid. You know, the creation of Ultron, for example. As I was just going to say that, it's just classic Tony Bruce Ultron, mostly Tony Ultron stuff, which of course led to the exceptional Pantheon Tony moment. Ultron, my fault. As always, with a lot of these guys, do less. You know what? Do less and you'll get more.

That's really the lesson. What about the worst bastardization of a sacred MCU idea? I'm going to go first on this one because I'm haunted by this. Bucky warping the end of the line. Bucky Cap, quote, sorry, pal, guess this is the end of the line. I was shocked and appalled. Now again, hopefully it's not actually the end of the line because it wasn't a headshot for Cap, but that was dismaying.

That's my pick. Gosh, I don't know if I have a good answer for this one. I feel like the point of what if is to do exactly that, is to take something that you hold sacred and special about the storytelling and purposefully subvert it. That's the whole entertainment of the show. Cruel and unfeeling. Well, but like the series that we've seen hasn't always done that.

I would say the strange episode in episode four, I don't even really know what that was even subverting. You know, I can't even totally figure out, like, what the actual what if of that episode was, more so than it was sort of like an examination of grief and time in the eye of Agamodo and all that stuff. But that's also in the original Dr. Strange movie. Like, it didn't really do anything new in that respect for me. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I thought it was in that respect less ultimately about Christine and the heart versus the hands and everything we learned about the absolute point in time, though that was obviously crucial. and more about the fact that

the masters of the mystic arts are sworn to protect, that their sole purpose is to ensure that beings and dimensions and powers that would seek to warp or use this might and time and love

and emotion and life and anything about the universe of their own ends are thwarted, because protecting is the sacred mission, and he completely lost sight of that. So I thought it was, I thought it was that. That makes sense. That's kind of an interest. That's like a real moral and philosophical, like opportunity to dive into a what if episode, like pretty elevated stuff relative to, you know, what if Gwen Stacy didn't die or whatever, or what if Spider-Man's clone lived? Like the handful of what-if episodes that are like pretty down the middle and easy to interpret right away.

But nevertheless, I think this is a cool show. You know, it is ultimately what I had hoped it would be, which is a lark with maybe some relevant facts, but mostly directional. You know, it is saying like, look over here at Hank Pim, look over here at Wanda, look over here at these tentacles.

Don't forget these figures. And also, if you have a heartful relationship with Chadwick Boseman and Tichala, we will return that feeling to you as much as we possibly can at this stage. because that's the other part that is fun about this show is, you know, I mean, Tachala was, was and is a great character. And so it's fun to get more opportunity to spend time with him.

Yeah, and I think also has been very meaningful in the episodes in which we have gotten to be back with Tachala, you know, the most heart-wrenching moment of the episode I thought was hearing Chadwick Boseman's Tachala say, in response to Peter saying they're all gone and I'm still here, Tachala says, in my culture, death is not the end. This, of course, is an echo of Tachala's line in Captain America's Civil War when he says, in my culture, death is not the end. It's more of a stepping off point. And just as it hits really hard to revisit that aspect of civil war and hear that now, this was

really, really emotional and impactful following Chadwick Boseman's death. That was very special. That was very meaningful. And this was a really interesting and fun episode of What If? You know, we got to hear Peter mention Uncle Ben. This was a really cool installment of Marvel Disney Plus TV. I'm excited to see how the rest of the season unfolds. Party Thor is coming soon.

We got four more ahead of us. I eager to continue discussing it here on the Ringerverse. but I want to spend a few minutes now chatting about Marvel horror more widely because coming off these two very dark episodes of what if, I think that question of like how dark, how trippy, how truly horror first or in what horror first way,

we think the MCU is going to be willing to go. And Sean, you are not only a Marvel fan, and a horror fan, but a movie and a movie industry expert. And so I am so interested for your perspective on this. And before we look ahead, I think we have to look back a little bit, right? We have to talk about how the MCU has not really gone the horror route in full in live action. No, which is kind of surprising. Now, there have been dribs and drabs.

obviously Dr. Strange was directed by Scott Derrickson, who is a very talented horror filmmaker, and the New Mutants came out last year. You may remember now that's not MCU, but it soon will be. That was sort of the end of the Fox era of X-Men stories. That movie was not received very well. I wonder if there even would have been an episode of the Ring or Verse about the New Mutants.

But the New Mutants originally was pitched as this sort of haunted mental institution film that also featured mutants. And what, you know, what kind of what came out the other side didn't work as well. And, you know, like I said, Hulk has some grounding. Frankly, the Marvel characters in general are horror characters.

I mean, in many ways, if you look at the X-Men and the sense of sort of like body torture and isolation and anxiety that they are defined by, those are horror tropes. If you look at Dr. Strange, That is a kind of wizard battling evil question. Some of the key villains in the Marvel Cinematic Universe and in the Marvel Comics universe,

up to and including Satan himself, are key horror figures. You know, so a lot of this stuff, they're very intertwined. And so the approach, and largely under kind of like the foggy era, has been very pop and very sunny and very quippy and purposefully outside of the,

tonality that you normally find in a horror movie. Right. Like you can say, I mean, you're certainly right to, I think, observe that about the almost fundamental nature of this type of storytelling and what is often, in addition to the, you know, the physical, the spiritual, the mental, you know, to continue with the Hulk examination, like one of the most unmooring aspects of the Hulk canon is, of course, that idea what do you do and how do you live your life if you can't trust yourself, right? There are so many different ways that this manifests. But if you look at something like, like the Blade films.

And of course, Blade is coming to the MCU. So that's a good one to think about and talk about in the backward forward respect. There's a lot of death and horror-adjacent aspects in the MCU.

But there's nothing remotely as gory or overtly violent as the Blade films. So when we get Marshall-A-Lah-Lee's Blade in the MCU. Will it manifest in that respect?

It's an interesting question. I don't really know what to expect from the Blade movie, to be honest with you. You're right that the original Wesley Snipes films are very violent and gory and court. There are stories about the underworld, really. You know, that opening sequence,

the club sequence in the first Blade movie is such a crazy and great scene. You know, it's such a cool artifact of that sort of late 90s, early 2000s version of that kind of storytelling. It's also like an adventure movie, and it's a little bit, it's a true modernization of

kind of the Bram Stoker, vampire killer story, and also a little bit of that sort of duality a man story that you find in a lot of horror stories where he's sort of like half vampire and, you know, has the tendencies and the blood type of a vampire, but is also battling that which he is most like.

And it'll be interesting. Yeah, how do they make that, how do they emce you a size? that feeling, that story, that sensation. They obviously have to change it pretty significantly from what Snipes did in those films. But can you do a sunny version of The Blade Story? Well, but would you even want to?

And that's one of the things that I'm interested in because you're absolutely right that the MCU is pop, right? It's meant to be consumed by the masses, like, definitionally. But one of the things that has been so, central to the MCU success is the genre variance inside of it. This is something that Kevin Feige has talked about very openly over the years, that being able to make, you know, a war film, right, and a period piece,

and then being able to make a spy thriller and on and on and on the list goes is what allows for the continued vibrancy and variance, where you're not only moving between characters and zooming in and out in terms of scale and scope, but each movie has its own feel because they are part of different genres. And so this would feel, like leaning into horror would feel like a very natural continuation in that respect. But there has been irrefutably some resistance to go in that direction. You know, you brought up Dr. Strange and Scott Derrickson. Well, Scott Terrickson is not making the second to strange film anymore.

And some of this, you have to kind of like, you know, parse and stitch together the meaning between various people's quotes and various Comic-Con or interviews over the years. But I think it's fair to say broadly that in addition to things like tight timeframes and just the Marvel machine of it all, the fact that Scott Derrickson wanted to make a horror movie and maybe Marvel didn't is at the heart of that, right? So, like, if you go back to Comic-Con and Derrickson's saying,

when talking about why he was going to return and what he would need in order to return, saying at Comic-Con, quote, if I'm going to do it, it needs to go into the territory that drew me into the Dr. Strange comics

in the first place, which is how they dipped into the Gothic and the horror and the horrific. We're going to make the first scary MCU movie. That is a thing he said. then Kevin Feige in December 2019 said to the New York Film Academy, I wouldn't necessarily say that's a horror film.

He did say it would have scary sequences in it. And then Derrickson left as director citing creative differences. Now, who knows exactly why? But do you think that that specific desire to make a core horror movie, you know, Derrickson has talked over the years about nightmare, you know, and there's a lot of fan speculation that nightmare will be the primary villain or at least a big part of multiverse of madness. Derksen has set out right. He wanted to feature him in the second Doctor Strange film. He wanted to feature him in the first film and has given very interesting and insightful interviews over the years about why ultimately that wasn't the case and how there was just so much to establish about the character and the mythology and the lore that bringing in the dream dimension and nightmare just would have been too much for the first film. But, you know, Nightmare's a Fear Lord. Like, that can get pretty scary if it's...

And it can be deployed in a way that isn't pure horror as well, though. So to me, it's not about what characters you do or do not feature. It's about what tone you apply to the stories. Well, because, like, Dweller in Darkness from Shang Chi is a Fear Lord, but nothing about that was horror. Not at all. I mean, that's a fantasy adventure story. Yes.

And Derrickson, you know, Derrickson directed the exorcism of Emily Rose and Sinister. These are gravely serious, unfunny, unjoyful movies. They are about like the worst things in the world. And they never let up for their 90-minute run times. That obviously is not something the MCU does. What's most important here about this story, and we can only speculate what happened between Derrickson and Fikey

and the creative teams there. Who the hell knows? Who'd they replace him with? Sam Ramey. There are a lot of different kinds of horror movies. Many people think of Sam Ramey, and they think of the great Spider-Man trilogy that he made in the early 2000s

with Sony and Toby Maguire. To me, Sam Ramey is the king of the evil dead universe. Sam Ramey is part of a story tradition of horror comedy, going all the way back to Abbot and Costello meet Frankenstein. No one is better at blending horror and comedy than Sam Ramey.

Multiverse of Madness will be a horror comedy of a kind. It has to be. This is what he does. He does fantasy well, he does superhero stories well, but you wouldn't replace Scott Derrickson with Sam Ramey if you didn't want a horror comedy, which is we know what Fagie wants in these movies is this sense of humor and joy

alongside the scary elements of the movie. Yeah, great point. You got to maintain the levity. That's it. I adore Ramey. I love almost every movie he's making, even the very strange Wizard of Oz movie that he made. I think he is one of the truly creative minds in Hollywood

who is one of those people who truly understand the history of Hollywood genre storytelling and is looking to do something new with it every time. I hope the MCU gives him the chance to make the kind of movie he wants. If I'm looking for a tone, I hope it's dragged me to hell. That's his most recent horror movie

that is terrifying and hilarious and has something to say about the way that big banks ruin people's lives. So think about what he could do, and then we'll see what we get bound by the strictures of the MCU storytelling. That certainly aligns with a recent Benedict Cumber

Batch interview with the Hollywood reporters, Rebecca Keegan, and he said of Ramey, quote, and I think specifically of what we can expect from Ramey in this film, quote, he's got certain Ramey traits, the smash zoom close up, the mixture of just on the level of horror and just on the level of camp, there's fun in there. And there should be some real thrills as well. That's exactly what you're describing. Yeah, and he's done it for Westerns with The Quick and the Dead. You know, he's done it for this sort of like mystical six sense style films

with a gift he's done it with he has done it frankly with hero stories in the past two not just with Spider-Man but with Darkman too which is similarly a very dark

and confusing and Darkman has a little bit in common with Dr. Strange in terms of questions of loss and revenge and marshalling your own power to do with the right thing

so it's very comfortable territory for him I'm really excited about that movie that being said I still don't think people will come out of there and be like

that was a horror movie I don't think anyone's going to say that. So then what is on your Marvel horror wish list? Either properties, characters, ideas that maybe could get people to say exactly that, or maybe that's not ever going to be the outcome. And these are all, to your point about tone and intent, MCU-specific or Marvel, maybe across other studios, Sony, horror-adjacent renderings.

What do you want to see over the next few years? Okay, so I have a bigger idea that encompasses something here that I want to share with you. Okay. So about 10 years ago, there was a big plan from, I believe it was Universal Pictures, to relaunch the universal monster movies. And they were going to call it the Dark Universe. The first film in that series was The Mummy starring Tom Cruise, infamously poor performing and not very interesting film, which then essentially sidelines the Dark Universe.

What I'm suggesting here is Dark Marvel. Okay. Now, the Marvel stories are very factional. There's Avengers over here. There's X-Men over here. There's Fantastic Four over here. There is the mystical over here. There's Dr. Strange.

There's Ghost Rider. There's Blade. Sometimes the Punisher finds his way into that world. Then there is also the kind of, the monster figures. Man thing. Oh, yeah. Weirwolf by night. Yes.

You know, Bloodstone is part of that conversation. The Hulk can be a part of that conversation. What I would do is I would, if I were Marvel, now granted, I'm not and also stupid, but if I were running Marvel, I would probably begin to make these stories a little more factional. And I would make Dark Marvel a part of the storytelling. And what I would do is build up some of these stories.

Now, one of the challenges here is twofold. One, Morbius is owned by Sony. We're getting a movie. We're getting a Morbiased. movie, which looks really bad. I hope it's not bad. Stars Jared Letto's coming out next year. I don't know if they're going to wend it into the Spider-Man and Venom storytelling.

They probably should. I think some of the Morbius and Spider-Man stories are really cool. We'll see what they do there. But Dracula, literally Bram Stoker's Dracula, is also a part of MCU canon. Dracula is the key villain in many Marvel stories. So there's a way to build out an authentic, old-fashioned, horror collection of franchises inside of these stories. One interesting thing happened that I want to share with you very quickly.

Okay. So there's a cool run called Midnight Sons from the 90s. Yeah. In which Dr. Strange, Morbius, Dark Old Redeemers, Nightstalkers, they all are kind of a part of this group of stories that are told mostly through the Ghost Rider series. Wow. Steve is excited in the Zoom chat right now. I mean, Steve, this is a cool run. Midnight Sons is a cool thing.

What just happened this summer, Marvel announced a new video game called Midnight Suns coming out March 22nd, or March 22nd. Is that an indication of a direction that some of these stories are going to go? Isn't it time we get a new Ghost Rider series? Couldn't we be blending all of these things together? Is this a way to bring Blade into the storytelling to use some of these other characters? There's a lot of opportunity here for a lot of cool characters. The thing is, in order to do this, they have to break some of the rules that you and I just talked about in terms of tone. Because these stories are grim.

You know, Dr. Strange, if you think Dr. Strange is grim, check out a fucking ghostwriter book. That stuff is, that story is gnarly. You know, it's really, really, it's violent and painful and emotional and serious.

So do you think that they would ever make a shift like that into that kind of storytelling? I really do. I do. I think part of it is just displayed everything that you said about Dr. Strange 2

and that tonal balance, which I agree with. I do think that will be dark. I think even something like this zombie episode of What If is dark, I think Moonnight will be dark. I think the continuation of Wanda's story will be dark. You know, this is not a horror thing, but consider Deadpool.

And Deadpool 3 coming into the MCU. That will be hard R in terms of language and sex and raunchiness and vans. violence and camp in a way that nothing in the MCU has been so far. And so we are entering a moment of MCU expansion in numerous respects. And this feels like one of the ways in which the MCU has to continue to expand, because to your point about Marvel Comics canon, so much of it fits into it. And what is ultimately the goal at the most boiled down elemental level of the MCO to make movies and to make shows, like to generate more IP and to appeal to the biggest

possible audience. Now, you could say, well, those movies would have a smaller audience, but it widens the overall audience and it builds loyalty within different aspects of the audience. So I do think that this will happen. And the part of it that I have the biggest question about is not whether it would happen in the first place. It's how do you balance the first the point you're making about factions inside of the MCU, with the fact that we're at a moment right now where everything in the MCU feels like it's about to be connected in a way that if you miss one thing,

you don't understand any of it. It's a great point. I don't know how you do that. I think it's a big challenge. Let me throw a name at you. I mentioned Satan earlier. Mephisto. Here we go.

Has been rumored. Yes. Erroneously for many, many months. This is on my wish list too here. Marvel is looking for its next big bad. It probably knows what its next big bad is. Is it Kang? It's not Kang.

Kang is going to be a great villain, but Kang is not Thanos. If we're being honest, it should probably be Galactus long term, but it could be Mephisto. And here's a way to introduce Mephisto. Hotel Inferno? Let's do it. Let's do it. I want to get the Helllords together, man. Let's have a party.

There's so many possibilities in this version of storytelling. Now, I will say, like, these movies would not look or sound like guardians. You know, the kind of the true triumphs of Marvel, the true triumphs of Marvel, the Triumphs of Marvel are not, to me, Captain America or the Avengers films. The True Triumphs are Guardians of the Galaxy or Black Panther. The characters who were reclaimed

and re-contextualized and reborn in this cinematic universe. Shang Chi is the next version of that. This is a character who has a pretty bad backstory, back history in its Marvel storytelling, and they managed to turn him into a cool character that is relevant and exciting.

What is the way to do that for this kind of storytelling while keeping it on the I'm not totally sure. Is there a fun ghost rider movie that isn't campy? That's the thing is I don't really... I'm not interested in horror camp. I'm interested in something that is trying to authentically pay tribute the way that this zombie episode of What If does

while retaining the kind of spirit of connectivity that the MCU has just been so great at. It's a big challenge. In the most directly connected way, I wonder if we'll see the zombies enter live action at some point. Why not? Could be. Could be.

And you mentioned Werewolf by Night earlier. This is just firm rumor territory, fan speculation territory, but there's a lot of speculation that

that's Ethan Hawke's character in Moon Knight. Oh, interesting. I didn't read that. And I have no idea, genuinely no idea if that's true. That's just a popular

fan theory. But... He's got major werewolf energy. Yeah, just feels perfect when you say it out loud, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it does. So, I mean, that would be really cool. I'll throw out, speaking of Werewolf by night, I'll throw out Legion of Monsters. Yeah, that would be good too. Tough because, as you noted, Sony has Morbius, right? But Sony and the MCU have reached a very fraught and complex IP share before.

Why not again? Man Thing would be a part of the Legion of Monsters. We've gotten a lot of Man Thing hints or like one degree removed from Man Thing connections over the course of the MCU. Of course, he's on Shields radar and Agent of Shields. He's on the facade of the Grand Master's Palace. He's one of the sculptures in Thor Ragnarok as a contested champions winner. Of course, Ellen Brandt is in Iron Man 3,

and so there's, again, a degree of separation connection there. Manthing in general would be great to introduce the MCU, but as part of the Legion of Monsters, you know, Manthing, Morbius, Warwolf by Night, Manfibian, and Conto the Living Mommy. Let's get some Ghost Rider action in there. Let's get some Frank and Castle Punisher action in there. I was just going to say this gets us Frank Castle into the story, too.

Who I think fans are, speaking of another character who, of course, there have been now a number of films about Frank Castle. And there was a TV series too, right? I never watched the TV series. You didn't watch the Netflix Punisher show? I did not. Oh, man. I really liked it.

It's your boy. I know, I know. I guess I should probably fire it up at some point. I grew up like, that character and then really thought better of it when I realized what a war mongering Reaganite creation that was. But I think Franken Castle is like one of the funniest things that's ever happened in the comic book. That's so, so funny. And it'd be pretty cool. That also, that's like, isn't Legion of Monsters also Red Hulk? Like, I feel like there's a way to do Red Hulk in there. There's a lot of cool

stuff in those stories. I've been waiting for Red Hulk. Might be a while. But that, I mean, the way that things are trending, is William Hurt going to be Red Hulk? Is that something that can happen? I think this is be weird. I don't know. We've gotten a lot of a lot of Thunderbolt Ross Red Hulk winks and hints over the years. I feel like it's probably not going to happen at this point, but you never know. William Hurd and Robert Redford being a meaningful part of the MCU will never not be funny to me. It's one of the funniest things that's ever happened that both of those guys were like, absolutely, I'd like to be a part of this. That's, I want to, I wish I could have been in the room and they agreed. Amazing. Alexander Pierce. What a contribution he made. Any other

Marvel horror stories you'd want to see? I think that's my list. I mean, again, as stated at the beginning, this isn't my personal, favorite area of storytelling, but I would, I mean, Mephisto is obviously an object of obsession,

you know, on the internet these days, and I really do hope that we see that. I'm very, very, very excited for Blade entering the MCU. And I like your suggestion a lot. That sounds really fun and cool and, like, a great way to do a lot of these things at once and build an expanded universe. Make it happen, Fygi.

They announced that Basam Tariq is going to be directing the new Blade movie. I have not seen his film. He just had a film release starring Riz Ahmed called Mogul Mowgli. That apparently is pretty good. I'm eager to see that. I'm always interested when a young filmmaker, their second or third film is an MCU movie

and seeing what, if anything, you can learn from those original films, I think whatever Blade turns out to be will tell us a lot about what we're speculating here could ever be possible because they need to kind of boil down a lot of their creative intention

into that movie. Will we get Ghost Rider or Man thing or Werewolf by night? I think we'll mostly be indicated by maybe a little bit in Moon Night but particularly in the Blade movie. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP

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So many possibilities. So many things to look forward to in the future. But also, as you mentioned earlier, so many zombies in our past. And so for just a few minutes here today before we wrap, wanted to run through some zombie superlatives. You, of course, when Army of the Dead came out earlier this summer, did the zombie top five over on big picture. So everybody should go check that out if they want more of Sean's zombie film takes. This will be a little bit of like a rapid fire zombie award, you know. Got to give out the hard.

to our zombies so that they can gnaw on it. I'm excited for your takes. Yeah, I want to know what you, what movies do you like that are zombie movies? Okay, we're going to start with this. Scariest zombies. And again, you can pick any zombie movie or TV show. Scariest zombies.

Not the scariest movie. The scariest zombies inside of a property. What's your pick? I've discussed this in the past, but 28 days later, the revelation that the zombies are Fast is one of the more upsetting things I've ever seen. Now, it's upsetting in two ways.

One, my logic brain was like, this is not zombies. This can't be right. This is unfortunate. On the other hand, I was like, if zombies can run, we're fucked. We are so, we are in a lot of trouble if this ever happens. That was my response in World War Z too, because they're very fast and they can scale walls. It's not good. And also tireless, because the glands in their brain that control energy.

are dead. They're dead. So that one, I think, was probably the scariest. My entree to zombies in general as a kid was that there was something funny about them. There's something almost doofy about them. My pick,

it will shock no one to hear the whites from Game of Thrones. And the reason I am picking them as the scariest is because you don't only have to contend with them. The White Walkers are never far behind, and that's a problem. Now, while anyone in Westeros can get their hands on some fire,

it's not as easy to get your hands on dragonglass, Galerian steel. Now, on the plus side, counterpoint, if you kill a walker, we learn all of the whites that that walker made, rose will fall. It's like in the passage, that's obviously the empiric tale, not a zombie pale, but, you know, kill the one, killed our many.

That was the same logic at play here, which was revelatory. That's my pick. Haven't talked about Thrones in a while. I had to get it in there. I think it's a great pick. I often don't think of the whites as zombies, but they very much are. I don't think of Game of Thrones anymore. And wouldn't it be great if the Game of Thrones spinoffs were great?

Wouldn't that be amazing if the show came back? Yeah. I'm excited for House of the Dragon and think it will. will be excellent. I can't wait. Can't wait for Duncan Egg. It's all going to be great. I'm ready. Huge for the ringerverse. Just unbelievable that we're getting. Can I just sidetrack you for one quick second? Did you read The Wheel of Time Books? You know, it's funny that you mentioned this. We were just talking about this the other day. I have not read those. And I frequently talk to Amanda Dobbins because they are, of course, a secret text to her husband

and your dear friend, Zach Barron. I need to get into these, but there are so many of them, and I'm on the clock here because the show is mere weeks away. It's imminent. I'm not familiar with them either, though. I have been in Zach's home many times over the years

and stared at his bookcase full of them, and he is passionate about these. And I would not describe Zach as a nerd in the way that you and I are nerds. So it's an interesting thing that he loves them so much. He likes fantasy a lot more than I do. I felt a lot of we desperately need our Game of Thrones energy in the trailer to the wheel of time.

I think everybody wants their Game of Thrones quite naturally, but, you know, that level of world building, that level of mysticism and magic and horror and all of those things combining into some kind of a stew is always of note to me. All right, we can go to your next category. I can't wait. And I can't wait for Amazon's Game of Thrones. Lord of the Rings. It's coming. 2022. I know. I'm so excited. All right. Other end of the spectrum here. Least scary zombie. You watch a show or a movie and you're like, you know what, this would be fine.

So is it least scary meaning no moral fear? Well, you can interpret it however you may, but yes, that's how I intended the question. The ones who just don't make you think you're absolutely doomed. Well, I mentioned that I think some zombies are kind of doofy. And part of that is the sort of Romero concoction, the slow-movingness, the brain-debtedness, the sort of like, it's more about the horde than it is the individual. individual zombie in most cases. In The Walking Dead, famously, the zombies are also quite manageable. I'm going to talk about Return of the Living Dead, which is a 1985 zombie movie, probably the first

zombie movie I ever saw because it was frequently on HBO when I was growing up. And I internalized it. And it's a horror comedy. It was not billed as a horror comedy. It's built as a true horror movie. It's written by Dan O'Bannon, who I think nerds will know as one of the co-creators of the alien franchise and someone who has been a part of science fiction storytelling over the years. co-collaborated with John Carpenter on Darkstar, and he's had a big hand in a lot of storytelling over the years that we dig. This is a writing and directing gig for him, and the creature work is really good in this movie,

and the characters are really fun, and it's an exciting movie about a zombie apocalypse, effectively over the course of one night. It's all kind of played it for a laugh. I think when you see that first, you think this isn't dangerous to me. This is, it's for a laugh. And when you're six and you watch it on HBO and your parents don't know that you've been watching movies called Return of the Living Dead, you develop a relationship.

Whereas if you wait a little bit longer to see, like if the first thing that you see is saw, then you might think, you know, serial killers are real and they will kill me every day of your life. But if the first zombie movie you see is Return of the Living Dead, you have a slightly more comfortable relationship with the genre. So that's my pick. Fascinating. Mine is the Walking Dead. Because they are very slow and you can easily trick and avoid them by masking yourself in filth and stench. The key is patience and focus. Almost everything that goes wrong inside of the Walking Dead universe is because someone got careless or got cocky.

The humans are ultimately stronger and superior to the Zy. And that is the reason that ultimately, even though this is a vast franchise now built around the idea that the zombie hordes moving across the land will claim almost all of us in time, I watch the show and I'm like, you know what? I think I could take these guys. I don't think you can. Okay. Personally. Top fictional universe in which to be a zombie. Okay, so this is from the perspective of the zombies.

If you were a zombie, which fictional universe would you want to be a zombie in? I chose Zambiland. Because I feel like in Zambi Land, they won. You know, like obviously Woody Harrelson and Jesse Eisenberg and Emma Stone's characters are wreaking havoc upon zombies. But that's a small story in a big world. I feel like in the bigger world, if you're a zombie in the Zambi land world, you did it. You won. You conquered.

everything is abandoned. You're in charge. That's what I like to be. Great one. What about you? My pick is actually, and maybe this is a little bit of recency bias, but my pick is the MCU because of what we talked about earlier. If you can use your powers on your tech, that's a pretty big deal. That's huge. But you don't have powers. You don't know that. How dare you? This is a huge revelation, one hour and 38 minutes into this pot. Maybe at some point I'll get bitten by a radioactive spider and then When I'm bitten by a zombie, I will still be Spider-Mount, you know? But you were not bitten by a radioactive spider.

In fact, radioactive spiders don't exist. But I could be. It's a thought experiment, Sean. I could be the shortstop for the New York Mets, but I'm not. That they could use you. I know. You know? The one counterpoint, it's not the one you made, which was an effort to thwart my dreams.

It's that everyone else, this would be true for everyone else as well, right? so if everyone else also maintains their powers and zombies, it's not like I have an edge, really. And so then it's a bit of a wash. But still, that's my pick. Next one, this is not from the perspective of a zombie. This is from the perspective of you, Sean, a human being. Okay.

The top fictional universe in which you would want to attempt to survive a zombie apocalypse. Well, I think it depends on your desire. for zombie love. If you're open-minded about your partner, then I am. I would want to be in the warm bodies universe,

because in the warm bodies universe, a living human and an undead could potentially fall in love and commingle. And so, you know, during a zombie apocalypse, I suspect that, you know, maybe my wife could turn.

And if she turns, I want to still be able to be partnered with her. That's beautiful. And I don't think we'd ever seen that in a zombie movie. I love my wife. So, you know, I need to keep open the possibility. And frankly, the other way around, too, if I turned, I need her to

to keep, to stay locked on me. You know, that would be a problem. We don't, we don't actually know if jealousy exists in the mind of a zombie, but it might after seeing this MCU episode. Definitely possible. Well, that was beautiful and inspiring. I'm going with Shauna the Dead. Okay. Because, uh, Shipper's...

Because you like a nice stiff pint? Yes, exactly. My answer's not quite as poignant as yours was. You're in the modern world. You're in London, huge. I love England. You could enjoy Simon Pegg's humor. That would be really fun. I need levity in my life, especially if I'm trying to survive the zombie apocalypse. These zombies are pretty slow, pretty dumb, pretty feeble. They are. They just literally like inch forward as you throw cans at their heads and records at their faces. Very easy. to thwart on the ultimate scale. And then if things kind of go okay and they net out in a decent place, at the end of the day, you can play video games with your good pal, zombie ed, tough to top.

Shawna of the Dead is just a magnificent film. Huge fan. Love the films of Edgar Wright, especially love that movie. Classic. What is your favorite kill, your favorite zombie kill in pop culture history? I had a hard time with this one, but I just wanted a little bit of the nerd to leak out,

the zombie movie nerd to leak out here. So there's a great Italian horror filmmaker named Luccio Fulci. Fulci made a, I wouldn't say great, but certainly bat-shit zombie movie called Zombie 2. Okay. Which may or may not be a sequel to zombie, but really is not. And in this movie, there is a showdown underwater between, a zombie and a shark. Okay.

The zombie bites the shark and the shark bites the zombie. They do battle. Incredible. It's an amazing scene. If you have not seen it, just fire up YouTube and check it out. It is the pinnacle of, is this really happening movie going? I love it. So that's my pick.

Whether that's the greatest of all time, I don't know, but I like it. It sounds very memorable. So, excellent work, excellent selection inspired. I'm going with Bill Murray's Zambiland Double Tap chair sequence, you know? Incredible stuff. From talking about Garfield to using a chair and cafeteria trays trays and plates

to make his way through the rapidly turning horde inspired. Did you like double tap? Yeah. It was pretty good. Yeah. Original Zambuland is amazing. Great one. Well, that's one of your favorites, right?

Yeah, really great movie. Mash up. What's your favorite? What's your favorite zombie genre mashup of everything we've gotten to date? If you so choose, you could also instead nominate one you'd like to see in the future. It's up to you. Well, I'll give you a bit of an arch contribution to this one. I actually mentioned one of my favorite directors, Jim Jarmish earlier, when I was talking about the lineage of NYC filmmakers.

Jim Jarmish, best known for his hipster portraits of isolation and cultural fascination, Made a zombie movie in 2019. It's called The Dead Don't Die. It stars Bill Murray, Adam Driver, and Tilda Swinton. Lovely movie. Quite entertaining. Typically, low-key, shambolic, and a bit ironic. But it is truly a blend of the Jim Jarmish indie drama and a zombie movie.

So I'm going The Dead Don't Die. Also, great theme song from Sturgle Simpson there too. What's yours? Pride and Prejudice in Zombies. the film or the novel? All of it. The whole thing. See, that's a nine book, 2010 graphic novel,

2016 film, just the idea of it, honestly, more than anything. Because it ultimately is a sensation that sparked this really fervent mashup trend. And I am a Jane Austen obsessive. I love Jane Austen. I love Pride and Prejudice. And I just think this is a riot.

So that's my pick. Almost aside. independent of the quality of any of it. Just inspired. It does feel like it was a long time ago when the Abraham Lincoln vampire hunter kind of those kind of mashups were happening in the culture. So, but good pick. What's your favorite?

Favorite zombie story? Favorite zombie movie or show? What's your pick? I just went old school and I went with Romero and the Night of the Living Dead and Dawn of the Dead duopoly. You know, obviously Romero went on to make five or six more zombie movies. but Night of the Living Dead as a parable

about that social encroachment that I was talking about, the kind of mob mentality that builds around people. Also, the original Night of the Living Dead, really one of the most thoughtful and not overdetermined portraits of race and heroism

in America, especially in the late 1960s. It's a very subtextual commentary on civil rights. And then Dawn of the Dead is really like a sister feature about consumerism and life stuck in a mall in the 1980s, late 70s, 1980s, and has a lot of foresight about where the country was going in terms of our need for nonstop distraction. And if you like movies like Fight Club, Dawn of the Dead is very much in the same vein,

while also both of those movies being really, really good zombie movies with good kills, scares, nice creature design, that's similar kind of like ambling but terrifying pace that we expect from those movies. Obviously, Romero is the grandmaster of the zombie movie. If you haven't watched those movies and you've watched all this other shit that we've been talking about, check them out. They're worth your time. I love it.

My pick. And let me just say, despite the fact that I picked the whites and talked about Game of Thrones earlier, I do not consider Game of Thrones a zombie show. And so thus I'm deeming it ineligible for this particular question. Because obviously it would be my pick otherwise. I'm going with the early seasons of the Walking Dead. You know, as you noted earlier, over the years, the Walking Dead changed and grew and lost or the shape of it morphed and I, at a certain point, became much less invested in it.

But the first few seasons were incredible. Incredible. It was a great show. It was a great show. I loved it in the early goings as well. And I do feel like it lost its way. But it's a great pick, especially if you focus primarily on the first three seasons. season's pretty nifty version of, and honestly, a very good translation from comic book to screen.

That's right. Relative to what we're discussing here on the show. All the comics behind me over there, and they're my pick as well. All right, a lot of zombie talk, a lot of monster talk. Wanda hasn't eaten in days. So it's time to wrap today's episode. Before we do, thank you as always to our resident chaos magic practitioner, Steve Allman, for producing today's episode.

Thank you as well, our Mindstone Weilders. Arjuna Ramgapal and TD St. Matthew Daniel for their production work on this episode. And thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Jomi Adenaron, for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you, of course, to everyone's favorite limbic system expert, Sean Fennacy, for joining me today.

Remember to follow the Ringervverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringiverse across our social feeds and head back into the Ringervorverse next Wednesday and Friday. For our ongoing discussions, what if and more. Until then, Sean and I have to head to Jersey.

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