The Ringer-Verse - ‘What If …?’ Episode 6 Instant Reactions, Nerd News, and Van-ime | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Van Lathan and Charles Holmes are back to dive right into the latest episode of 'What If ...?' and find out the twisted tale between Tony Stark and Killmonger (04:27). They dive into nerd news and discuss the latest trailers including 'Hawkeye' and 'The Matrix Resurrections' (52:38). Then Van takes you into the world of anime and talks about 'The Animatrix' and why he loves it so much (74:25). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Twice a week, Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay dissect the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports on their show, Higher Learning. They discuss the most important and timely conversations while also frequently inviting guests on the podcast and occasionally debating each other. Check out Higher Learning on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. Into the ringerverse. This is of course the ringers nexus podcast B for all things fandom. I am old man band. Lathen. I am joined by Charles Holmes, Coke baby Chuck, the host of the Ringer music show. Of course, we are backed up by Six Steve Alman, Jomi, the Explanner, our dinner on, and Arjuna, the builder, the architect. I like that.

All together, though, we are of the midnight boys. Remember that song? Venom. Like Venom's coming out pretty soon. Don't start. Don't start. This isn't the Venom podcast yet. But I'm actually very excited for the Venom. I'm actually excited.

Like MC people don't get on me. I'm so excited. We got Venom. We got Dune. We got Bond. I just want to talk about movies. Like, I just want to talk about it. Is Bond Midnight Boys territory?

It has to be. Come on. Is it? We'll let the Midnight Riders to decide that. Meant Night writers, tell us if we should watch Bond or not. If you're like, nah, it's not superheroes, and we'll say fuck you. You know, but if you want something, they've been telling us, they've been complaining, give us something other than the MCU. So we're trying.

Bond is kind of a superhero, I think. You don't think so? Yeah, of course, yeah. Bond, Bond, he has gadgets, you know? Bond is like a, like a low-rent Batman. You know? Damn, don't do that to the legend. Go through your old spiel.

Okay. I'm just saying. I got to do the spiel. you're right. Program reminders this Friday, Mal will have her deep dive more into this episode of What If, which was another laugh riot. Mal's gonna have her deep dive into more

of What If. You have to follow the Ring ofverse on the Facebook group, which we love you guys as Facebook group, Twitter, Instagram, all of our socials, at Ring Averse. Make sure you follow us, get involved in the conversation. In this episode, we're going to cover What If, Episode 6. We're going to touch on a bit of nerd news

some pocket protector facts we're going to talk about and we're going to do a trailer roundup because there's some trailers that have come out a little bit and we're going to talk about those. Some big trailers, some huge trailers in the nerdscape. You would call Hawkeye a huge trailer. No, but I will call the Matrix. A huge trailer.

The Matrix, yes, very huge. I'm very excited. Hawkeye was a mid trailer. A mid? I like the trailer. I'm just saying it's not like Iron Man. Yeah, it's not like Iron Man. Let's Hawkeye.

It's Hawkeye. I'm the greatest archer in the world. I'm plucky. A lot of pluck going on. And then, of course, we're going to talk a little bit of anime. We're going to do our first Vanamee segment. We're going to tie that back into some of the Matrix craze that we're dealing with because we're going to talk a little bit about the Animatrix.

Now, there's a lot of anime that I'm consuming all at one time, and my brain is very jumbled. So people want, they wanted to talk a little bit about my hero, macadamian, that we want to talk about Neon Jesus, Evangeline, Lillian, They wanted to talk about Attack on Titan, but I need a little bit more with that. I got to be honest with you guys. I want to do a whole I want to do a whole separate

series of podcast on Attack on Titan. Where are you in Attack on Titan? I'm very far. Bozeman sleeps in the bed with me and watches Attack on Titan with me. The dog watches... He sucked in. The dog is sucked in. He barks at the Titans.

Like, Bozeman watches it with me. You know, Bozeman started sleeping in the bed now. Bowers in there and he watches it with me. So attack on Titan has just has me. It has me. Okay. But now, we have to get into this episode of what if, which is, of course, what if killmonger? Everybody's favorite bad guy.

What if Kilmonger saved Tony Stark? It's a recap podcast, but we still got to do this every single week. Sixth, roll a warning. We're getting ready to talk about the episode. you're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. All right. Now, this episode of What Ifs takes us back to one of the, not one of the,

takes us back to probably the most important moment in the history of the MCU, which is the moment that Tony Stark became Iron Man. Takes us back to Iron Man One, where the Ten Rings organization attacked Tony Stark's military convoy. blew him up, shrapnel to the chest, took him hostage, and really birthed in the MCU, at least,

the world's first public-facing superhero. Except this time it doesn't happen. What happens this time? Kilmonger swoops in, grabs Tony Stark, and starts a whole different, wily, and wacky set of circumstances. Charles,

your quick initial thoughts from this episode Before I go, I want you to go, because you're the Black Panther Hater. So I got to see what temperature you're setting. Why am I a Black Panther Hater? You are a Black Panther Hater. Whenever you get chance to shit on that movie, you do it. That's not true.

Steve Jomey, is Vanna Black Panther Hater? Let's be real. Just give me a yes or no. I wouldn't say a hater. Yeah. He has an agenda. I don't have an agenda. Do you know what I'm, you know what my agenda is?

I'll tell you, I'm a quick spiel. Then I'll tell you what I think about this. My agenda is to rid art of Hype Beast culture. Okay. I'm a Black Panther truther is what TD said. That's true. You sounded like Nicki Minaj. You just like, yo, my cousin got swollen balls from the vaccine.

I'm just trying to help people. No, my agenda is to end Hype's culture because it's going to kill art. The fact that we bring agendas and bring emotional loyalty into a critical observation of art, is going to dissipate, or more shall I say, it's going to degrade the quality of the art that we get over the time. It's like the fact that everybody can't admit that Megan Estallion doesn't make good music. All right. All right.

Let's relax. Okay. Let's just go. I do agree on your first point. I do agree with that. And perfect segue, you know, we got to get Shay Serrano on the podcast because I'm still mad about that tweet where he tried to say that Sean, she was like the best

Marvel movie of all time. And I'm like, relax, dude. It hasn't even been a moment. And so that's all I'm saying. So what I want to do is I want to give, I want to make space for people to say, hey,

this is amazing. And then this is okay. For a movie to be successful, it doesn't, not every film has to be a home run. There's some triples and some doubles off the wall in there. And sometimes some solid singles.

So I just think for me, I know a lot of people who have, this Black Panther conversation and we were like, Black Panther was good. But then when they get in public spaces, they go, Black Panther is the greatest movie that Marvel has ever made. And I'm like, we have to give each other space not to do that. But this isn't about that. This is about... What did you think of... What did you think of the episode? I thought that the episode was good. I'm not going to lie to you. Getting a little emotionally exhausted with whatever. Let me tell you, I'll be honest with you. I wake up. So here's the thing

that that's why what if is pushing me. So think about the time that I watch what if. I'm not watching what if like in the afternoon when I'm winding down after like a full day. You know, we're doing this podcast early. So I'm getting up and I'm watching what if in the morning. I'm watching it over and over and over again. So that means to start my day,

to start my day, to start my day, I've watched all the Avengers get killed. I've watched Dr. Strange destroyed the universe. I've watched zombies and all the zombies eating up everybody. All the Avengers getting killed from zombies and stuff. And now I've watched in one episode, Tony, Rodey and Tachala die. So that's how you're starting your day. So when I take the dog out for a walk after I watched the show,

And the dog doesn't want to cross the street. And I say, get your fucking ass across the street before something bad happens to us. That's probably because of what if. All right. It's probably because of what if. So I'm not saying that these things aren't good. What I'm saying is there's a clear through line to me of Marvel trying to go a little bit heavier, a little bit darker, and using the animation to do it.

And I'm adjusting to it. To review the episode on its face, it was a lot of fun. It was cool. It was maybe the most unpredictable episode. Because at first, I really thought that this was going to be a reimagining of the Kilmonger character to maybe give him some sort of a retribution.

A more heroic bent. A more heroic type of deal. But it ended up not being that. It ended up being actually almost a more sinister version of Eric Kilmonger than we saw in Black Panther. So I couldn't, I couldn't stay ahead of the episode. All of the twists and surprises really worked for me.

So it was definitely a lot of fun to watch and definitely a good episode. But I'm just being honest about the fact that, you know, I'll probably fire up a couple of episodes of Ted Lassover when we're done with this just to kind of cleanse my palate. But no, what did you think? I think what if has been up and down for me. I think I tend to like the what if episodes that are a little bit more fun and a little bit more plucky as you like to say VAD,

whether it's like the Black Panther Guardians of the Galaxy episode or something that's wacky like Marvel Zombies, even though that's very dark, there was still a level of just like watching Spider-Man being all like funny and making home videos. And this episode, I was little like,

you know what it was? Have you ever gone to like a club or a restaurant? You're like, oh, this is the best night ever. This is the best night ever. And then you're about to take your boys. You're like, yo, we got to go to this place. And then like the service sucks. And it's just like, dog, why are we here?

Like, you promised me something great. That's how I feel about this. Like, I experienced the high of Marvel zombies. And then with the killmonger, I'm just like, oh, okay, cool. Services of food's not as great as the last time. But still dope. Still a burger. What, what, before we move on, what would you say didn't work for you in it?

If there's anything that didn't work, because I don't know if you're actually even saying that. I think the only things, and we're probably going to talk about this is the MCU has a real problem with, like, this is so nerdy. Every single episode we talk about. power scaling. And like, Killmonger was just taking people out like they were nothing. Black Panther just dispatched with him, like just like a paper doll. And I was like, I know Kilmonger's like a good fighter, but like he was just anybody. He was beating anyone and everyone. I'm like, I don't know if that's how it would actually go. Right. Based on what we know in the MCU. You feel me? Yeah, I get you. I get you. I will talk more specifically about that because

I think the Black Panther fight is something specifically that they were trying to establish with Eric Kilmonger. They do something different with this character in this episode than they do in the movie. I think we're going to talk about it a little bit later. So Killmonger was exactly the same character as he was in Black Panther, which was a surprise to me. That was very consistent. I thought that the what if would have to, because, you see him doing something so heroic. I thought the what-if would play more on that.

But it was interesting that they decided to kind of turn that on his head a little bit. It definitely, definitely caught me off guard. Now, to your point about the power scaling, this is something that I feel like they almost expanded Eric Kilmonger's character in this what-if. I'll tell you what I mean by that. in the Black Panther movie, when they're doing,

it's a classic trope, when they have a character and they have somebody else talk about him who knows about him, they give you all of his attributes. Was here, went here, did shadow operations here,

did this here, did this here, graduated MIT, graduate this place, 19, graduated MIT, blah, blah, blah, right? They give you all of that stuff to let you know how formidable the character is. Kilmonger was seen in Black Panther as an expert soldier and a great military tactician, right?

Because he was able to get the drop on people, stay one step ahead of people. But in this one, the villainous mind of Eric Kilmonger was really put on Front Street. The fact that in his own head and in his own, that he's really capable of being a master villain, a master chessboard player on the same lines of a like, Joker, Lex Luthor.

But they also made him like a genius. Like he was going engineer for engineer bar with Tony Stark. Not really, though. Because remember, he said that he could, there was something that he couldn't do to get his thing to work. Yeah, but he was one rung below where he's still, they're still making the robot based off a lot of his, he's like schematics.

And he is the one to say instead of the arc reactor, we need vibranium. So while he's not as smart as Tony, in the Black Panther movie, I didn't get the sense that he was that much of an engineer whiz kid, but in this, I'm just like, okay, I guess

I guess he can build robots in this. But even him wanting the vibranium is a way for him to, it's part of his scheme. Yeah. To get within the proximity of Wakanda, draw them out a little bit

and then go forward. So I don't, I thought making him that, I thought making him that, he said he planned the museum house and Claus escape in the movie. Yeah, I understand that, TD. I get that he planned that. He planned those things. But now I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about making the United States military go to war with Wakanda. I think that's a little bit of a bigger trick. You know what, TD? Like, here's the thing. This is the problem. No, no, let's talk about producer TD right here. Actually, TD, jump in. Jump in. I want TD to jump into the podcast right now.

The TD, like I notice when you put these little things in, you got a little contradictions to what we're saying. Well, he did play in a museum he said, you know what? He had Thunderbolt Ross sending troops to Wakanda. I think that's a bigger deal, TD. That's a harder pull off. What are you trying to say to me when you put your little notes in the chat? What are you saying? So as most listeners probably don't know who I am, I'm the silent voice behind it.

this. All we're doing with Steve is we're providing you just notes and facts as a show goes on. We always want to present other sides to the argument, other sides to the conversation and equation. It's not for you to bring up on air if you disagree with. It's for you to add to your conversation if needed. So we'll take you behind the curtain here. Ooh, TD game spicy. We are taking you behind the curtain. You know what we're doing? You know what else we're doing? We're fucking closing the curtain. Tech TV off the podcast. How about that? We're We've opened the curtain, and now grand opening, grand closing. All right, thank you, T's out.

But you're right. Now, so do you feel, though, because of all the double and triple crossing that was going on, does the story get muddled it all for you? Was it at any point a little bit much for your brain to do the mathematics to follow it? I want to say yes. As somebody who entire job is like structuring stories, writing stories, making stuff as simple as possible. Did it get muddled?

Yes. What I do think was effective, though, is that, to your point, they are showing you how complicated killmonger how much he's thinking about. This is not checkers. This is chess.

He's thinking three, four, 10 steps ahead of everyone. So I get that. If this was 45 minutes, I don't think it would have been as muddled, but because it's like 30 minutes, dog, it was, they were going from,

scene to scene from beat to beat. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we were in Iron Man 1. Now we're in like, wow, Black Panther. What's going on? So the biggest leaps for me didn't have anything to do with Killmonger. It has to do with the fact, excuse me, they didn't have anything to do with Killmonger's capability, right? I could easily see how Kilmonger could set up a deal with Black Panther and

Rode, get the drop on them and then use a weapon on them that could do that, you know, incapacitate Black Panther and Have Rodi and Stark has that kind of tech That didn't really bother me He didn't actually fight Tachala If he fought to Chala Tichala had the herb in the system

He'd have lost So he had to do something different Which is incapacitated him in a different way That didn't bother me was The character that was most depowered In this thing was actually Tony Stark Yes

Like because Tony Stark uses the drone that Kilmonger built to fight him, he's got better weapons than that, number one. He's got better weapons, he's got more powerful weapons than that, number one. Number two, Tony Stark makes Eric Kilmonger the C.O.

of Stark Industries. Let's talk about it. You guys, that doesn't make any fucking sense, man. Like that, I know that he got Obadiah out and all of that, but he gives, and because of, something that Kilmonger does, he gives Kilmonger's happy, Kilmonger happy's job. He's the head of security right

away. Right away. And then right away he gives Kilmonger happy's job. And then after he gives Kilmonger happy's job, he promotes him past that and puts him past pepper and gives him Obadiah's job. It's just, that was one of those storytelling things that I was

looking at like, okay, I guess I'm going along with this. What if Tony Stark had absolutely no gauge of human beings whatsoever. What if Tony Stark had no common sense? The Tony Stark that we see in the original movie, yes, he's like an asshole, he's a playboy,

but he's very smart. He's very good at reading people. He's very wily. And in this, Kilmonger out thinks him at every turn. And I honestly wish that Ironman had been a little bit more of a formidable opponent to him. Just strategically.

Because I'm like, why in the world would you make someone you just met yesterday, the C.O. of your company, that makes no sense. I think about this. All the people that Tony knows that are around him and the actual Iron Man movie are people he has known for years and years and years. Obadiah practically raised him. That's how long it took for him to get to a point to where he could betray Tony. Obadiah practically raised him. Happy was as close to him as anyone in the world, his best friend,

and him and Pepper were basically in love. Those were the people that Tony Stark surrounded himself with, you know? So I guess my thing is I just found it very, very difficult to believe that he would have been, that's my biggest nitpick, that he would have been so cavalier with that. And by the way, not only is that true of his character that he was incredibly cavalier, It's also something that Kilmonger must have known because he must have known that that was actually Tony because that was part of his grand plan

to get close to Tony Stark to rescue him and then get elevated to a point in Stark Industries where he could make all of these things happen. It just didn't seem very true to the character of Tony himself. Wait, while we're picking Nits, I know that this wasn't a problem for you. But I want to bring in Jomi the explainer because the whole dispatching of Tichala,

I was like, really, bro? Jomi, let me know that the sonic weapon, I forgot, is one that Iron Man uses, or Obadiah Stane uses in the original Iron Man. Jomey, can you explain to me how Kilmonger could dispatch of Tachala with the herb that fast? I think ultimately it comes down to the element of surprise, right?

Nobody knew that Black Panther was going to show up, right? They planned, like, Kilmonger planned on it, but the U.S. military didn't. And so when Black Panther shows up, does his whole thing. Kilmonger's like, from the shadows, you know, says this whole spiel, hits him and Don Chito's war machine, or I guess just Rode at that point with the Sonic thing. And yeah, that was that. He didn't know, you know, to expect you coming.

But Tachala is essentially a super soldier. Like, I have to believe that Tachala could have put up a little bit more of a fight. That's why. Ultimately, we don't, I don't think Tichala has like, like, a spider sense or anything like that to like, you know, get, you know, he will get caught in a, you know, if somebody gets sneaks off on him, he'll get caught with it. So, you know, it's, I'm just saying to Chala was going, Tichala was going like hand to hand with the Winter Soldier. I don't think Kilmonger is better than the Winter Soldier. So it's just very funny to be there. Why are you divorcing yourself from what actually happened?

They didn't fight. Yeah. Who didn't fight? There wasn't. They didn't catch hands. But here's the thing. That's my problem. Tachala would have put up a fight.

You just can't kill Tachala that is. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Am I on, am I in the fucking Twilight Zone? He used the sonic thingy on him. Are you trying to tell me? I'm saying a sonic, a little sonic cannon is not enough to take out of black. Panther. Why is it little? See, this is what I'm talking about. This is, this is you and the propaganda of the Black Panther movie. Whoa. Okay. I'll ask you a question. Do you think that that

Sonic Canon could have taken out Steve Rogers? Yep. No. Whoa. What? I think the I really don't get what you're doing. It's the only a surprise. Yeah. When you get caught off guard, right? Boom. You can't, he has to take off the helmet. He's like, ah, you. You're, You know what I'm saying? And he shoots him. I think a little bit more of my super soldier heroes, like Tachala, Steve, then it just like, y'all, all come on going to have to do is like get the element of surprise and bat bat, they're done.

They went against Thanos. Like, what are we talking about here? I really am very frustrated with this conversation. But I'm going to move on. Because it's not like he came up behind him and choked him out or kicked him in the shin or made him pull a hammy. he came up behind him with a weapon and used technology. That's like saying you can't walk up behind

Tichala when he has his mask off and shoot him in the back of the head. You definitely could. I'm just saying that the hero that I know, the hero that has been established in the Marvel universe, should be able to at least put up some level of fight against an Iron Man one weapon.

Charles was one of those people who say like, you know, Superman can't kill Batman because Batman will never let that happen. Well, how much time does Batman have to prep? you know what I'm saying? Like Superman can't just snap Batman's neck on a whim. You know what I'm saying? But when Batman did have time to plan, he did beat this shit on the super.

That's what I'm saying. Tochala didn't have time to plan. Didn't have time to plan. Killmonger caught him off guard. That's it. And we move on. By the way, I will say this, though. The only thing I will say about that is that it's kind of weird that Shuri,

I guess Shuri was still a kid, but they didn't have something. They should think of Sonic Attack. They should have something. Those little things that Kilmonger had in his ears, that should be a part of the Black Panther helmet. or something. They should think about that. Yes. So, look, we go on from here and, you know, Kilmonger just

gets progressively worse and worse and worse. We start to see that his character has the same motivations that he has in Black Panther. He is able to fool both the United States government and the Wakandan government. General Thunder Bulls Ross makes an appearance. Look, there are a couple of things here that kind of like are talking. You got a couple of big lines in here.

here. They're talking right to you. Shout out to my boy Don Chito, who I hit about, who hit about this this morning. I'm like, yo, bro, they fucking killed Rody. And Don Chito hit me back. Like, I don't know. Sometimes niggas die, bro. You know what I mean? He says you got to be part of the system to change it.

What Brody says. And that's what a black dude in the military that rose to that level would say. and Kilmonger, true to himself, says you got to burn it all down. I was a killmonger on that one. I was a killmonger on that one. Right. Were you on Kilmonger when he was talking to Chala? When Chala sees him when he's with his ancestors right there in the Panther realm,

Kilmonger says to him, he says, was it all worth it? Black Panther says, was it all worth it? And Kilmonger says, yes, blah, blah, whatever. He says, you think the answer to suffering is more suffering. do you agree with that Charles do you think that inflicting more pain can get you out of the pain that you're in now what do you think about Kilmonger's bars

and we're going to be honest if I'm going to put on my coofy for a second you know what I mean the only the only language that the oppressors understand is violence now I'm just going to leave it there you know what I'm saying

I'm getting too real for the people on the pod now you're getting very real almost made you wonder if we have to beep that you know I don't want anybody coming back to me is like, did you see anything in Charles before this happened? I'm like, no. I did that.

I think that the interesting thing with Kilmonger, though, is Kilmonger talks about, and I think this is a thing. Kilmonger talks about the oppression and we could have a completely different podcast when we talk about what needs to happen in order to tear down a system of worldwide oppression and supremacy. But Kilmonger hurts.

so many people that trust him along the way. And Black Panther, a black woman has to die for Kilmonger to get his way. Like many Wakandans have to die for Kilmonger to get his way. So it doesn't seem like Kilmonger's goals are as pure as he would even think they are. It seems like his goals really more than anything are to exact revenge. Because here's the thing. To care about any people, you have to care about. a person, right? So that means that like if I am going to go out and save a bunch of people,

but they're going to be individual persons that die along the way of me doing that that are supposed to be in a group of people that I'm a save, they have to matter. That's like a Captain America thing, right? Captain America knows that to care about people, to care about a group of people, you have to care about one person. So he's not willing to sacrifice one person for anybody because that undermines everything that he's doing. Now, look, if the whole gals is at stake, maybe you take a little shortcut, who knows? But for Killmonger,

like, his situation gets robbed of his purity because there are so many Wakandans he's willing to let die. There are black people over here. He's willing to let die. They're his allies. He's willing to let die. It seems like it's more about him

than it is about the them. And that's the fatal flaw in the character. His philosophy is not wrong. The way he goes about it is. Because even at the end of Black Panther, to Chala realizes that Kilmonger had a point. That's why it goes back to the Bay Area. Because he's like,

Kilmonger had a point, just the way he was willing to go about it, was all wrong because the only person that Kilmonger is really fighting for is himself. And you see this with a lot of leaders. They say that they are fighting for their people, but really they're just fighting for themselves. It's just really, and it's interesting.

It's a powerful narrative when you think of Kilmonger. It's a angry little boy who, is mad for the right reasons but doesn't know how to go about it in the right way. He's mad for the right reasons and he's mad at the right people. But if so many of your own people

have to die in order for you to get what you want, you're probably not going about it the right way. Man, they're about to cut our mics. We get into real on the spot. Oh, what? Fear of a Black Planet, Midnight Boy's style.

Man, give us our coofies. Like, a child that is not embraced by the village will burn it. down to Phyllis Worm. Oh, Jome. Jome. Jome. Jomi. Yommy. Y'all should see. Steve is in the barbuchar right now getting to fade.

You know what I'm saying? Steve is doing his thing. But Steve doesn't like this kind of talk. Steve is probably going to go to the ringer and complain. Like, you never know what these blacks we're talking about on the podcast. All right. Leave Steve a load. See him alone. Yeah. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech.

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Now, there's one thing that I feel like I know why claw got himself killed in this episode. I think claw and him would have been cool, but claw says, hey boy, Do you want to hear a story real quick of rest and peace, my father? Please. I'll never forget this. So my father's from a town called Mariguan, Louisiana. And, you know, in Mariguan, black people are white people. But, like, it's a very small town.

And there are a couple of white families in Mariguan or in around the surrounding areas that have, like, a lot of money. Because they have their sugar cane farmers. And there's one specific. family that has a lot of money that lives there and I won't say the name. The older guy the family was kind of cool like the head of the family but his sons were, his sons

were not. And one of his sons was about 10 to 15 years older than my dad. I remember it was maybe 87, 88. I was 700 years old. We're at like the Bay Shop getting some shiners. He was about to go fish. And he

says to my dad, he goes, well Terry, you made a good life for you, we always liked it. We like Terry, that's a good old boy right there. I don't know how the guy meant it. I don't know how he meant it. It could have meant that he was just saying that he was a good son of Maryland.

Like, you're a good old boy. Like, you're a good guy. But I remember my dad, I looked at him and my dad was like, he was eating some, these kind of chips that they only have him down south, not zaps, but they're like golden crisp chips or something like that.

Yeah. He's like, my dad used to call him Krispies. He's like, hey, you like that bag of Krispies? And he was like, oh, I love these. He was like, yeah, finish him. Because that's your last motherfucking bag that you ever going to have. You call me a boy in front of my son. This is your last day on earth.

I was like, I was like, what? And everybody was like, oh, Terry, he didn't mean it like that. He was like, I'm going to take him in the parking lot and I'm going to beat him the death in front of all of you. You caught, then you start messing up shit, grab the dude, and all of that stuff. And I'm like, we're in the car driving back to Baton Rouge. And I'm like, I'm scared, right?

We didn't get to go fishing. The whole fucking day is ruined. The whole day is ruined. My dad is threatened the man's life. They say they're going to call the police. He didn't grab the man choking them. Messed up all the thing. Bears fell on the thing.

Beer, like people walking on, people barefoot in the country. People walking on glass and trying to bleed and trying to stop this. And like, I'm thinking to myself, what's the deal? And my dad looked at me and he said, as he's driving, he said, don't you ever let no white man call you a boy. You are man.

I'm thinking, I'm only seven years old, so I'm not really, but no, you're a man. Do you ever let him call a boy? And my dad goes, it's not over. I'm telling what I'm going to do. I'm going to call Craig. I'll call somebody else. Next time I see him,

I'm going to beat his ass till they roll like okra. And I never knew what role like okra meant. Like, why does it? My dad would always say, my dad would say, I'm going to whip your ass till they row like like okra. I have no idea what that means, but he would always say it. But the minute that this guy called Kilmonger a boy, I mean, this was a big deal. Like, people had to get involved, like, because my dad was called this one, I don't know.

The minute this guy called Kilmonga boy, I thought he's dead. You knew who you think, ooh. He's dead. He's dead. I almost witnessed somebody die. You know what I mean? So, like, he's dead. And so Kilmonger goes back in there.

You were saying back then you were a kid who was easily tempted by like candy, where you just like licking your lollipop just being like, damn, he's getting his ass to be. It wasn't a lollipop. I had a, do you remember those, uh,

the little, those like little Debbie cakes and they looked like cupcakes. They were chocolate with a little white writing across of them. I was set. I had, I had some,

some hot fries and I had the little Debbie cake. And I had my little, we was about to go fish and have a great day. I was so excited. And that's all I got for the day. We literally got in the truck and drove back to Baton Rouge.

Shinas died. We didn't even go. Fisher. Like, so I was watching the whole thing and my, I'll never forget, my auntie was like, Terry, just leave. Just leave. He had such a bad temper. So I'm saying, the boy thing, it's great writing.

It runs deep, deep, deep. It's completely, other words are dehumanizing. Boy is emasculating. It takes a grown man. It makes him into a little man in society. My dad couldn't handle it. And neither could kill Marker. Can Marker Mark and ape shit.

Oh, shout to your dad, man. Wow, badass. Rest and peace. Yes. So he reacted to Klaus saying, hey, boy, you killed Klaus. What do you think of Ulysses Klau in this? Getting more of Ulysses Klau. I like Ulysses Klau.

I like Ulysses Klau. He's just the perfect, slimy type of villain. Anytime he shows up, I'm like, man, claw. Like, we didn't get enough of him. We did not get enough of him. I especially liked him. He's funny. I don't like that they killed him.

I think that they should have left Klaw. alone for a while, long time and let Claude do his thing. I hate that they kill everybody. Why do they kill? He would have been a great Thunderbolt. Like, he would have been a great, just, like, cracking jokes with the rest of the villains.

Like, he just has the best one-liners. Oh, I love Claw. Getting back to what if in and of itself, what do you think is the point of them killing so many heroes on this show? like Tony's died twice you know what I mean

like Tony's died what do you think do you think there's a larger point to what if killing so many of the heroes that we've gotten to know over the last 14 or 15 years is there something that they're getting us ready for in terms of our expectations of the MCU moving forward why do you feel like

they're doing this I don't even think it's priming us for anything if I'm putting on like uh my writer cap you got to think how hard is to establish a world with stakes within the course of 30 minutes every single week. And we all have the same similar complaints about the MCU. We're like, oh, where are the stakes? We know the heroes aren't really going to lose. They're not going to die. They're going to be around because we know the movie's out. If I'm a writer of what if, I'm like, ooh, you know how we raise the stakes

really, really quick? We kill off these heroes. You know how we raise the stakes? People think the MCU is too cutesy, cutie, too funny. There's too many quips. Kill them. Let's get dark. And I think that's what you and I are a little bit like, damn, I'm burnt out. Because for years, we're like, oh, man, the MCU, you know what the MCU has that? DC does it? It's funny. I like the characters. I want to hang out with them.

Avengers going out to eat after they save the world. And now we're just, the writer's like, no, no, this is not that type of world. Yeah. Actually, would this be the third time that Tony has died? Because didn't zombie Tony die as well? Zombie Tony in the Marvel zombies. Did zombie Tony die? Well, I guess he's a walking.

dead, so yes. I forget, did he, Jomey, the Explaner, did zombie, Tony died? Hope killed him. Oh, yeah, was that the one she exploded? Yeah, no, Hope used the ants and him, Wong, and Dr. Strange got God. If, in what if,

Tony has died three times. So basically, Stark is who he is because we are basically watching the only fucking universe where Stark survived. It's like, he, every other universe, Stark took a massive L. He's taking massive ales all around the universe.

It's weird. At the end of this, we get a team up, an unlikely team up, between a younger Shuri and a very, very suspicious and wily Pepper Potts. Do you think this team up of Shuri and Pepper is going to be capable of taking down the now almost unstoppable New Black Panther of Eric Kilmonger? I think so. That was the most interesting turn of events in the entire episode. And when I was watching, I'm like, damn, I would have rather watched Eric Kilmonger go against Shuri and Pepper Pots.

That to me is so fascinating because we've yet to see in the MCU a Shuri that doesn't have a brother. It's just let go, is a genius, can build tech to go against anybody. That's the thing. I'm like, all right, I want to see that. I want to see that episode. I wish they would have gave us more of that. Yeah, I think we're going to see that too. Last question about this.

I think the main point of the what-if episodes are, at least in my opinion, are to stretch our minds to be curious about other universes where things might have been different, you know. Would you be down to watch more content in this universe where the black people, Panther is Eric Kilmonger. Was this all, let's take all of these what ifs as pilots, as pilots for a new universe. Let's take them all like that. And at the end of all the shows,

we're going to rank these as pilots for a new universe. As this relates to the overall MCU, if it was a pilot for a new timeline, how amped would you be to watch the show that comes behind the pilot for this new timeline. I'd be so hyped. My husband, Michael B. Jordan, finally getting the respect that he deserves

as the Black Panther, come on. Greenlight it right away. Even if this wasn't my favorite episode, I'd watch the hell out of that. Just not with the same art style, but I would watch the hell out of it. Greenlight it. I'd watch it just to see the Queen

as the Dora Melagie General. I love seeing Angela Bassett out there kicking some ass. Oh, no funniest thing I was just like, damn, there's a version of Black Panther where we get Angela Bassett just... just going hand-to-hand, just like whooping people. That's what we should do. Wait, was that weird to you?

They built up the robots. You're like, yeah, these robots are unstoppable built by Tony Stark vibranium. And people were just killing up with spears. I was just like, this is... It's not weird. As a matter of fact, the other side of it was weird. Like, we got to figure something out here. Either Wakandans are the most technologically advanced in the world, or they're not.

So, I mean, I realized that Shuri was still young at this point, so maybe she had more to learn. And a lot of the advantage that they're going to have later on comes from her brilliance so I can get that. There's nothing that we should be able to create stateside, even if they have killmonger with them, that should be able to march on Wakanda and affect them. Absolutely.

Especially if Shields not involved. You know what I mean? They have an entire force field around their city. there are flying cars. The technology before Shuri is there, has been built, the infrastructure of Wakanda and their advanced society.

How the fuck do a handful of robots pose such a threat to what we know as the most advanced society on Earth? Tunday says, reminder, they were vibranium suits. Everything in Wakanda is vibranium. What does that mean?

What are you talking about? See what I'm saying? Every medal in Wakanda is damn near Vibrania. So you mean, tell me, they don't know how to. to fight against vibranium. Anywhere else you take the vibranium suits, the people should be like, oh, my God,

this vibranium, what do we do about it? Captain America had been thrown around the same shield fucking 100 years. People don't know what to do with it because it's vibranium and they don't know what to do with it. The one place that that wouldn't matter, T.D., that's what I'm talking about with you.

The one place that that wouldn't matter that the suits were vibrating would be in Wakanda because they know everything about vibranium. God damn it, TD. Van, do you know what happens when you put shows out and people get on you guys? I can't believe they didn't mention this

when we were talking about this conversation and that conversation. Wait, well, TD, did that mean you're on the side of the people? That does not mean. So here's the point of conversation, guys. TD, are you in the midnight mob? Wow.

At two, TD, et too. I am a man of the people. TD is in the midnight mob. The midnight writers. I'm there all day every day. What I will say, again, you don't have to agree with the other side of the argument.

However, it makes for a better show provide context. And that's all it is. There are people who are going to be screaming at their podcast and headphones saying, both they were vibranium suits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't agree with it.

I'm just bringing that up as potential of the side of the argument. Thank you, T.D. I was going to let y'all cook, but ultimately, they weren't worried because the plan was the force field goes up. They bring the robots in. The force field goes down.

The link between the military and the robots is disconnected. And the robots are stationed. that point. They said, she actually, Okoy actually said why will we be worried about it?

They're from America. We'll take him down really. Yeah. But Kilmonger presses the button, right, which is why of this whole master plan to reactivate it

so he can look good in front of everybody and then take the Black Panther role, right, so he can advance his own agenda. No, I get all of that. I remember all of that.

My only issue is like, if we're talking about power scaling and intelligence scaling, the Wakandians beat those robots asses so fast. Why were they worried at all? This is insane to me. All of this is just like makes no sense.

Well, it's somebody else, right? Like at that point, Wakanda, you know, they don't fight in wars. They just, you know, mind their business. So for this is like, maybe like the first time they'd have to do with somebody else controlling vibranium. What could someone else do with their technology?

You know, they have no idea, right? So it's a little worried, you know, hesitation. But ultimately, it didn't matter. But I could see why you be worried about somebody else, you know, having your, you know, your skill set. Okay, here comes TD. Bring TD back on. TD wants to ask.

Come on, TD. Let's go. I've got a question for you guys. Since we know Vann is a Black Panther hate, hater as we described earlier. Now the propaganda. Have we found it interesting that what if has dipped into the Wakanda character pull to great effect so far, probably more so than any other corner of the MCU universe? We haven't got a ton of Asgard.

We haven't gotten a ton of the guardians. But we've got a ton of Wakanda. What does that say about the great? that was Black Panther. Interesting. No, no, it doesn't say much about the greatness that is Black Panther. I'll tell you why. I think that Wakanda is the least flushed out place that exists in the MCU.

Like, we know the inner workings, the ends and outs, the history, all of that stuff of Asgard. We've spent a lot of time in Asgard. We know Asgard's effect on everything. Wakanda, we've gotten really one movie there and then a part of a movie where it was just basically a battlefield. So I think there's much more fertile ground in Wakanda than there is anywhere else, which is another reason why I think that Tachala, the character of Tachala, should come back

and be Black Panther because there's still so much to build out in Waconda. And a lot of the stuff that a lot of the ways that we get it was only through the perspective of Tachala. And we didn't even get to meet a lot of these other characters. So there's just more there, like I would say. Honestly, if I'm just being real, I think it's also a writing thing. If we're just talking pound for pound who are the best actors and actresses in the MCU who are the most charming, who are the characters you want to spend the most time with, it's easily Black Panther, even if we're talking about villains.

Like there's a reason that you can make an entire episode around Killmonger and you can't about, I don't know, Ronan. There's just, it's very easy. Ronan. Ronan. Yep. I mean, that's what Black Panther brought to the table, right? Flipside, strong characters across the board, an entire ensemble.

So, Van, Van, again, you're wrong. Black Panther agenda. You got to stop. Wow, C.D. is coming at your neck today, man. He's coming at your neck. TD just knows. TD's feeling a little insecure now because I put him on Front Street

about the fact that he throws these little placards out that deviate us off the conversation that we're having. We'll be talking about Black Panther. TD would be like, did you know that Christopher Reeve was the original Superman and Superman movie, 1977, directed by Richard Donner, rest of being?

I'll be like, and then I see that. And then I go, oh shit, Richard Donner, Superman. What the fuck? You know, nah, TD's great. Like, all of this. You love TD here. Do TD, all of this. Shout out to the midnight.

Shout out to the midnight. Okay. Van, I got some good news for you. What? Not a, you know, we already know we're getting a new, you know, a sequel to Black Panther. But there's a Wakanda TV series from Ryan Cougler. World of Wakanda, yeah.

Yeah. You're going to get, you know, your deep dive. We're going to get your, you know, I want to see it. You're looking to Wakanda. I want to see it. I don't want it. I don't want it.

All right. That's enough of what if. We spent a lot of time on this What If. I think this, what if deserves a lot more of this. You guys hope you enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. A couple of look at Easter eggs here.

The Stark suits are Gundam inspired, Gundam Wing, because Kilmonger loves anime. He likes anime, so he built him a little anime suit right there. This is just in time for me and my new passion of anime

that I'm into. All the different anime shows that I'm watching. The anime is coming out and I'm getting into them. I'm going to get into manga next. What is it, manga? It's manga. It's manga. It's manga.

I'm going to get into manga next. And I'm, I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I will say when he was just like, it was revealed that killmonger is into anime. I was just like,

this all makes sense. Your whole thing is now. How you go through the world. What are you talking about? What thing are you talking? Oh, his fatalistic view of the world because he's a big anime fan and anime is almost all depressing. It's not, well, we're not going to do that of anime. I'm just saying he's watched Attack on Titan and he's got a little, a little nihilistic.

You know what I'm saying? Yes, he's definitely a Vegeta fan. He actually looks like Vegeta. He does. He's actually closer to Vegeta than anything. He actually looks like Vegeta. He has a Vegeta-esque aura to him. He is the Vegeta of Wakanda.

He's Wakanda and Vegeta. But I don't know if he's going to turn good, but he's Wakanda and Vegeta. Vegeta's awesome, by the way. I thought that actually the mech suits were going to turn. I thought Iron Man was going to look at him and say, let's scrap him, and then he was going to build the Iron Man suit. I thought Kilmonger was going to get an Iron Man suit.

That's what I was like, man, you all missed an opportunity. Missed an opportunity. What did you feel about Tony's voice in this one? It was Mike Winger, he returned the voice, Tony. It says he's a people that say that he's a carbon copy of Robert Downey Jr. I didn't think so.

Sounded fine. I knew it wasn't Robert Downey Jr., but I was like, fine, cool, passable. You did a good job. Thumbs up. Yeah. He did a good job. I was, I think Tony Stark, Robert Donnie Jr. is my favorite actor.

I think I was most disappointed with Tony Stark in the whole episode, though. Tony Stark was, it seemed we were back in the Demon of the Bottle days. Because remember, in Marvel, Tony Stark, they only barely hint on the drinking problem. He has a couple of cocktails. In this episode, every time you see Tony, he's got a drink. He's got to drink. Every time.

So I think they're messing around with the demon in the bottle days a little bit. And maybe that's how Kilmonga was able to get in there because Tony was plastered on that. McCallon. and the entire time. Do you think Tony's a Surrock boy? No, probably. But he doesn't really drink white, though. He doesn't.

He doesn't really drink white. He's a brown littered. He's on that duce. Shout out to kiss. He's on the, he's on the, he's on the, uh, the ducee on the brown. Well, Hennessy.

I can see Tony being with a little hidden dog, dog, dog. Uh, so look, it was one more Easter egg that I noticing this. This is Iron Man 1. yet my man Don Chitle is here. They didn't switch it back up. You light-skinned beige boys took another loss.

Because now they officially got Terrence Howard completely off. They envived him. They just like, they act like he never existed. Could you imagine Terrence in the MCU still? That shit would be wild. That had been so nuts if we'd have turned this on and it would have been Terrence Howard. Maine.

We can't trust Kilmonga, Maine. We can't trust this killmong of Maine. If Terrence was still in the Iron Man series like throughout this, do you think that they would have

given him a Disney Plus show or would they be like, you know what? We're good. Look, no disrespect to Terrence Howard, but the best thing that could have happened to the MCU

was the Terrence Howard. Don't disrespect Terence Howard. I love Terrence Howard. I love Terrence Howard. I love Terrence Howard. I love. I love Terrence Howard, but he's not a Disney type dude, bro. He brings too much, he bring too much shit with him.

Wait, have you seen the club of him trying to break down his mathematics, his own? Yeah, yeah. Like, can you imagine him like Iron Man too trying to be like, Tony, man? I got these new mathematics, man. Like, it's going to blow your mind. Donald is a, uh, Don is a great, fantastic, amazing actor. And let's be honest. Don also has a sterling reputation in this town and all of that.

So Terrence is dope, but maybe a little bit too much for Disney. Okay, that's going to do it for us in our conversation of what if right now. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. 100 free events. 6,000 kids, one mission. Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities.

Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community-based organizations near you. Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100KK. That's ClinicK with a K. Clinic Kids is registered 5-1-1c3 nonprofit. Let's go ahead and get to their news minute. All right, the Hawkeye trailer dropped. It came out and it hit the bull's eye. Okay?

How long have you been working on that one? Shut up. We saw a lot of stuff in the Hawkeye trailer. out this past Monday. We saw Kate Bishop in the Hawkeye trailer. We saw Hawkeye talking to his family. We see what looks to be like a lighthearted Christmas adventure with Hawkeye and Kate Bishop where seemingly, possibly perhaps, the mantle of Hawkeye gets passed from

Clint Barton to Kate Bishop. On first glance, you watched the trailer, your thoughts. I liked it. It was just like, it's low stakes. I'm going to be honest, I love a Christmas movie. I love a nice diehard. I love the holiday spirit.

Okay. And if I'm going to be honest, Hawkeye is the perfect hero to have a TV show because if you told me like, yo, you want to watch this new Hawkeye movie? I'd be like, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I cherish my life.

I'm going to die one day. But on a TV show, I'm like, all right, I got a couple hours. I got a couple hours to burn. Are we going to be watching Hawkeye over the Thanksgiving break? Yes. I am going to watch Hawkeye.

Now listen, let's be honest. Am I super falling out of my seating side of a Hawkeye? No. No, it's like, but that has nothing to do with the trailer. When they first said that they're going to do a Hawkeye show, I was like, oh, okay, I'll check it out. You know what I mean? I'll watch it.

Look, here's the thing with the MCU right now. Just put it on and I'll watch it. You know, and that's why I'm hoping that they took some chances with the Hawkeye show, because they had absolutely nothing to lose. Like they have... The expectations seem very low for this. Right. So if they come out and do some really ill shit

and Hawkeye is a lot of fun and it's funny and it's heartwarming and it really pushes the story forward, they're going to have a show that impacts the MCU and probably resonates with the fans much more than they even thought that it would. Wait, can I actually say this?

You want to know I actually think the Hawkeye show might be really, really good? Why? I think... A lot of the emotional burnout I have with the MCU is like every TV series so far had to be like capital I important. Wanda Vision's about grief. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is about race. Loki is about like discovering himself, which is all good and all great. But Hawkeye, if they just make a fun, lighthearted series, I'm going to be in. I don't need like a heavy, like emotional burden thing. Just give me Hawkeye shooting that shit.

Have you read the Map Fraction Hawkeye run? I have not read any run of Hawkeye ever. Yeah. It's great. I've heard that it's really good. You don't have an hour to just flip through it? So I'm looking at a book right now that's all my bookshelf, and it's called Project Stargate. Do you know what that book is about?

No. It's about remote viewing. and it's about the government who had a secret team of psychics that they were used to remote view and do other things to try to catch terrorists and people all over the world. You fucking think that a hawk eye run

is going to get me to read it and not that. The hawk eye run, it's a little overhyped. It's very good. Like what do I see on my shelf? I see I see a quitting, Tarantino script of the Hayful Eight, which I read over and over again. Read all, I see a David Morehouse book about remote viewing.

I see the Jonathan Hickman Avengers run. I see the Jonathan Hitman Fantastic Four run. I see the Jonathan Hitman X-Man run. I see Avengers Assemble. I see America on fire. I see Crabgrass Frontier, a book about the desuburnization of America, or excuse me, not the desuburnization of America, about the suburbanation of America. I see all of these books.

Where does the Hawkeye run come in? that I'm going to read about Hawkeye and not about this. Can you give it a chance for me? Fine. I'll read it over the weekend. Look, I didn't even fight back. It's comics. I'll do it.

Wait, I have to ask you, do you think the Hawkeye series is going to prep us for Daredevil showing up in Spider-Man, far from home? There's a lot of things he could prep us for. We could see Black Widow, Yelaina come back, and be on the... Yelana's definitely coming back in this. We can see her coming back. We can see her there.

we can see Val in this sometime at some way maybe getting that K. Bishop and trying to get her into whatever team she's building. We're going to get the debut of Echo, who was a character from Brian Michael Bendis's Dared Elver Run. We're going to see that. And then third, Vincent Donofrio has been whiling on Twitter

allegedly liking a lot of Hawkeye posts so people think that he might be one of the big bads of Hawkeye. And if he's in that... He's apparently in the Matt Fraction run of Hawkeye. He's the Kingpin is, right?

I believe so, yes. Right. So, like, this is my thing. If that is the case, then Kingpin is going to be in it, and Vincent O'Nonfrio is going to be in it, and if it's an Afrio is in it as Kingpin, I'm definitely in because

the fucking stupidest thing you have ever said. All right, well, I thought we were going to leave this in the Midnight Boys chat, bro. Don't put me out on Front Street, all right? Because the midnight mob is going to come from me, but my take is correct. The stupidest thing you have, let me be honest with you guys. Charles has said a lot of things that, look, he's a very unique guy and he has his own way of looking at things.

I have no problem with it. Charles is like my brother, let me tell you guys something about the midnight boys real quick. I'll say something about the midnight boys. I fucking love these guys. I love these guys. These guys are my friends. These are the coolest fucking guys to hang out and do a podcast with like all of them. All of the Midnight boys, including TD, Captain of the Midnight Mobb, the Midnight Mobster, TD.

Oh, TD, you got a nickname, the Midnight Mobster. That's your name. Wait, are you going to really put me out on Frontier? I thought I was sending you all this text in the safety of the group chat. Nah, fuck all that. I definitely am. So Vincent Donofrio, to me, being in the show means it's a must watch because he was sensational.

No. As Wilson Vizk. No, he didn't know. Charles fixed his mouth in the group text to say that Vincent Dinoffrio was terrible. He was terrible.

I laughed every single time he opened his mouth. I laughed. I'm going to be honest with you. Vincent Dinoffreel's portrayal of Kingpin to me is on Heath Ledger

as the Joker levels of good. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. There's no way. There's no way, you know.

I'm serious. He was perfect. Heath Ledger. Vincent did not. Heath Ledger is the Joker. Okay. I never forget that. Like, I asked somebody who I saw the movie earlier,

Dark Night earlier, how was Heath Ledger as a Joker? And they go, no. Man. As compared to Jack Nicholson, they go, no, Van. Heath Ledger is. the Joker. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, yeah.

Wait, you can, you can big up Vincent DeNofrio without comparing his betrayal of Kingpin, which is like fine to Heath Ledger. Vincent DeNofrio is Wilson Fisk. We, stop. He is. I'm not letting you get that take off. I'm not letting you get that take off.

He took Wilson Fisk to a place that we didn't even know the character could go. I'm being honest with you. I wish I could, I wish he would take us back. I wish I could buy back my time watching him in that series. You're nuts. Anyway, so if Wilson Fiss is going to be in this, I would tune in just to see him again. Vulnerable, angry, driven, maniacal, sinister, strong, all of that. Such things, especially in this fully formed version of Wilson Fis will probably get,

which would be after the Daredevil stuff, which I'm not sure is canon anymore. I don't even know. but yeah, I can't wait to see it. Can't wait to see it. Not the only trailer that dropped this week, though. Q, one of my favorite songs in the world, Jefferson Airplane's White Rabbit, which is kind of an on-to-n-nose song to play in this trailer.

The Matrix trailer dropped. That's the Matrix sound. You want to hear it again? That's the sound. That's the sound. What's the Code? What do you think of the Matrix trailer? I'm in. I'm in.

My stock. My stock is in Matrix Resurrection. Now, what I will say is, Van, I'm very, very afraid because, like, emotionally, I'm invested in this movie. And if it does not meet my expectations, I will be heartbroken. That's how much I want this movie to be as good as I think it will be. Okay. So I agree with you. And I'm making a public proclamation right now.

And I hope that everybody listens to me because I will stick to this. If the Matrix Resurrections is bad, I will never, ever, ever, support an IP reboot of anything ever again. That's how confident you are. Now, superheroes are different because the reason why I say superheroes are different is because different superheroes have to be updated for a new generation. A new generation is going to want their Batman story. A new generation is going to want their Superman story.

A new generation is because those characters live forever. These movies are a little bit different because they actually go back to some of the same characters and some of the same story arcs and stuff like that. and they exist. It's not an update for a new generation as much as it is. Let's take this IP and do something kind of different with it.

So I give superheroes actually a pass, right? Because the same superheroes been around since 1938. If this sucks, I'm not going to let them keep doing this to me. I'm just going to be honest with you. I will say the real problem with this is that like for people, not me. I like the second and third Matrix movies.

But if this one does not do it needs to do, that's three terrible Matrix movies that the populist thinks are terrible and one good one. Right, right. Wait, but what did you think when you saw the trailer? I thought the trailer did everything that it needed

to do. So I'll tell you what the trailer needed to do in my opinion. The thing that got me with the first Matrix was the trailer. I remember sitting down, I was halfway through a pint of ice cream. This is really a true thing. My knees were sore because I played some basketball. Commercial comes on. Keon Reeves doing all kinds of things

and said, no one can tell you what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. And the movie itself didn't look like anything else that came out, right? Like we were in, that was an era, it was 99, but we were just catching our breath from the era of like action stars. This is a Jean-Claude Van Dan movie.

This is an Ernst Worschenegger movie. This is a Wesley Snipes movie. This is a Sylvester Stallone movie. So an action movie had to have this requisite testosterone and this sort of big dumb energy. Even the ones that weren't big and dumb

still had to kind of feel like they were, right? And the Matrix didn't seem like it was completely the antithesis of that. It was like totally different. It was sleek. It was sexy. It was new. It had Keanu Reeves as his action star. Even though speed, he had been in speed,

speed was still like a, what do you do? It was like a big dumb action movie, busts with a big dumb premise. This was completely different. There was an elegance about it that you could see in the trailer. And it was, it was captivating. And like you watched it and you were like, damn, I got to see what that's about. I want to know what the Matrix is. I want to know.

And so you went to the movie theater and you're like, what the fuck are we doing? Like, Jesus Christ. Like every single time, right? And so this movie didn't have obviously that awe. because I know what the Matrix is and I know all that, but it did have something that made me think,

what world are we in? Who is Neo? At this point, what are the rules of this world? What are these other characters? Is that really Morpheus? Why does he look different? What a Matrix movie should really do

is, and what a trailer for a Matrix movie should really do is ask you a shit ton of questions. And it did. Like, even, like, it did. Like, what has happened? Why is Neo back? I thought Neo was dead.

Neo's alive. Neo's not taking one blue pill. He's taking dozens of blue pills. Are these blue pills keeping him grounded in his new matrix? Who built this new matrix? You know what I mean? Why do Neo and Trinity not know each other? What are the ramifications of Neo and Trinity meeting?

All of those things, it peaked that in me. And it's something different than what a lot of people are doing right now. So I think the trailer was enough to give me back in. That said, if the movie sucks, I'm going to stop doing this. Because the least, if we're going to live in an I. You won't like, if this movie sucks, you ain't supporting Top Gun.

You ain't supporting nothing. No. No, I'm serious because for Hollywood to, I get it. And I'm not saying that I'm not working on some IP stuff myself. But like, but what I'm saying is,

if you're going to take us backwards, at least make it good. You know what I mean? At least put your. And look, I know that it's not both what Chowsky's working on this. I think it's just Lana. It's just Lana, yeah. And she did say that like this seems like a very, very emotional movie for her because her parents died.

And part of getting through that grief was resurrecting Neo and Trinity and kind of just getting back into this world. So I'm very interested. And I also think Keanu, the thing that has it in its favor is like we are all fully aboard the Keanu train in a way where. in a way where we weren't for years. After John Wick, I think there's a little bit more of an assuredness to Keanu. There's a little bit more fun that he brings to the screen and charisma. So I want to see that version of Keanu.

If this ends up just being John Wick in The Matrix, I'll have no, like, props. I'm like, cool. They did. I actually would be, yeah, I'm down with that too. Just John Wick and the Matrix. Just fucking go ahead and do it. All right, my man, Yaya Abdul Mateen, is Morpheus.

in this. Do we have any fucking clue what's going on? I know a lot of people said, well, Morpheus died in the video game, so this is a new version of Morpheus and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, uh-huh. Like, that's the thing where I'm just like, I really don't want them to do that.

I really do think that they cannot tie this to like all the video game lore and all the fucking shit. No, no, they, it is. That video game stuff is canon. I don't know what to tell you. They got like a hour or new footage in that shit. I know it is, but like

A video game stuff is canon It's canon. All right. Like that I don't know why. You don't want something to be canary. I want something to be canon. But I'm into the matrix.

I'm very hopeful. But this is the litmus test. This will be the one. This will be the one. If it doesn't work, fuck it. I'm out. I'm out. Now, a couple of Marvel games announced

with PS5. By the way, I got myself a PS5. Damn. am I the last person who don't got a PS5? Yeah, it looks like it. You broke motherfucker. Hey, man, we got to call. We got to call Bill Simmons up.

Call Bill Simmons up. Yeah, I need a PS5. Yeah, so Wolverine and Spider-Man 2. Are you excited for these games? I don't have the console. How am I going to be, like, I don't know. Are you excited to watch other people play these games? No.

I'm going to be a hater. Do you have any sort of console? Do you have any sort of console? I got Nintendo Switch. Don't do that laugh. Don't do that laugh. Wait, did those switches, dope.

Yeah, but you did that, like you did that broke my laugh. Like, huh. Well, I'm just saying, like, you know, you get tired of playing Animal Crossing

and fucking Marble Cart. Do I get tired of playing Hades and Slay the Spire? No, I don't, then. Thank you very much. All right, some of us live in New York

and some of us live in a very expensive Brooklyn apartment, okay? I've got to keep a roof over my head. Right. You know what? I'm going to be honest with you.

I might get you something special for Christmas. As my fellow midnight boy. I might get you something special for Christmas. I will say, I can't trust you because the chocolates never came. I ate them. So let me say what happened with the chocolates.

So let me say what happened with the chocolate. Wait, wait, wait, for the people who haven't been listening all along, why were you going to give me some chocolates? Because we made a bet, and then I had to send you chocolate something about the Turkish delights or something. I don't know. I don't know. So here's the thing.

I still all use some chocolates. Let me tell you what happened to the chocolates. This is what happened to the chocolates. This is seriously what happened to the chocolates. I ordered the chocolates and the chocolates came here. The thing was the chocolates came here and this was during the time that there was a major COVID surge. So I didn't want to go to the, because I had to mail the chocolates out. I didn't want to go to the post office or like leave and go be around people because I was very paranoid about COVID.

So what happened was the chocolate sat there in the box. And one day I'm here at the house, I'm like, God damn, I got a sweet tooth. I don't want to leave and get nothing. I just want something small, like a piece of chocolate. So I opened the box up. And at first I was like, I'm just going to eat the whack chocolates. Were you going to eat the whack chocolates?

They just send me the rest of the chocolates? Just, I'm going to eat the whack ones. Like, I'm going to eat the taffy ones or whatever. And then the almond ones and the nice ones, you can get them. But after a while, shout out to, world's finest chocolates the bitch to be hidden so i got i do have to send you some more chocolates was this was this a high van decision or was this a sober van decision i was there was there was some there was some there was some you're not you're not wrong my dude but i do i do owe you some chocolates i got

be a man of my word i got i only thought about that thought about that like last month i was like you know charles ever got his chocolates but i will give you i might send you the ps5 and the chocolates oh thank but if you do not have a PS5 by christmas uh i am excited the trailer was amazing. They got to do the OG dude from Candyman voicing Venom, which is sick. Venom. That's up, but

him, Venom. And then the Wolverine, like, I don't know if I can play a Wolverine game. They say that's rated M. It's going to be violent, cutting up people, but that's just going to be dope. If there's not Hulk in it, as it been confirmed that there's Hulk in it, there has to be Hulk in.

Yeah, I'm excited to play a Wolverine game. I think it's a great idea. I think the Wolverine game is a idea. I think I'm so excited to play Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man video games are tough to beat. I'm excited. I just want to be able to play these superhero video games. I want them in abundance. I want everyone represented. Everyone represented. Every superhero I want.

I want them to be on there so that I can play the games and live as a superhero, which was all my... Shout out to the OG Spider-Man 2 game. Love that game. You know what else I want, though? I want more of these games on, like, my Oculus, my virtual reality. Now you're just bragging. You got an Oculus too, then? Yeah, man, there's an Oculus game where you can fly around, but you can actually fly.

And it's like real. It's a Plank game where you walk the plank, which is actually scary and fucks with my anxiety. But then you could fly around on the game, too. They could have, with the two Oculus things, a Spider-Man game where you jump off and shoot the web, using the Oculus controllers, and it could be super dope.

And I don't know why they haven't done it. Bring my shit to the Oculus. Ben, you got to get that gaming PC on it. What gaming PC? What you're talking about gaming PC? You got to get a gaming PC and plug in your Oculus to a gaming PC. You got a whole bunch of new games. You can get that Spider-Man game that you wanted. Is that true?

Yeah. Wait a minute. I got a thing to show you once we're hanging again. Yeah, 16 coming through with the recommendations. Whoa. Whoa. Did you hear what Steve just said? Steve said, I got a thing to show you when we're hanging together.

Jesus Christ, Stevie, sick Weinstein boy, Steve. the game. It's half-life Alex. It's great. You got a thing to show me when you want to do it at the Peninsula Hotel. God damn it. Bastard? Jesus Christ, Steve? Like, no, I'm not coming over. Man Bozeman will not be. I'm just joking. Are you guys excited at all for the Guardians of the Galaxy game that's dropping?

No, absolutely not. In October 26th. That trailer, I'm sorry. That trailer did not do. It, like, are the, are the, is the midnight mob going to like destroy me for saying that trailer had some problems. No, I don't think so. I think part of it is also that game is reminiscent

of the Marvel's Avengers game. Oh, yeah, I didn't hear good things about that. Yeah. We don't talk about that. We don't talk about that. All right, we're going to talk a little bit of Vantamay to wrap the show up. We've been talking about this for a while.

It's time for me to get into the deep world of the Far East. And it's Vantamay time. For sure, we're going to do Vanamee now, but coming up in the future, we're going to do Banga as I started getting into manga. But now it's Vanamee. So let's do it. Our first ever Vaname segment. Let's go.

This is Vaname. I don't know. I was just trying to come up with the song. We're going to have a song come next time, but we definitely will. With that drop. Okay. So we got to talk about the anime. because I started watching the animatrix.

You and Jomey watched it last night? Yeah. There's a new, there's a lot of anime that I'm into, but we're going to start with the animatrix today because it connects us back to the Matrix, whichever one's talking about. So I've been watching My Hero Macadamian Nut. I've been watching Evangelist, Lily, Neon, Tiger.

I've been watching Attack on Titan. I've been watching all of these. Bozeman, like I said before, Bozeman loves Attack on Titan. my dog. My dog is here right now. We watch animate together. We watched the Animatrix again last night.

All right, you have not seen the Animatrix, so, Charles. No, this is the first of anime segment where you're going to recommend me something. Is this worth my time? Like, be real. It's like, I have time on my hands. If I sit down and watch this, will I enjoy it? The Animatrix is fantastic. Hmm.

When I say the Animatrix is fantastic, I don't feel like you can truly appreciate the Matrix. Unless you've watched the Animatrix. If you ranked, if you're ranked, if you. you rank the Matrix films right now, where does the Animatrix sit? Two. It's better than Reloaded. Than the Animatrix than Reloaded, the Revolutions.

So like the Animatrix to me gives complete context to the entire Matrix world. Number one, it gives the beginnings of how things got to where they were, which is just, I don't know how I lasted this long without having seen it. maybe because of my aversion to animate. But it gives you the beginnings of the world itself, how things got to where they were. And to be honest with you, it makes you take a really skeptical look at humanity,

parts of the animatrix at the beginning. The machines kind of have a point, at least at the inception of things. it takes away from the machines are horribly bad. It really gives context to it. And then there are stories that are so interesting because they're just telling different stories about life in the matrix.

Like just how things go in the matrix. Like things, you know, people living inside the matrix that aren't trying to figure the matrix out. They're running up to, they're running up against different forces that they have no idea what's going on. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Then there are a couple of stories. just about, you know, ships other than,

there's one story about a ship other than in Nebuchadnezzar and what they had to do and what they had to sacrifice and like, what's going on? I thought it was really great. Jomey, what did you think since you saw you watched it too? I thought it was awesome. I literally, I didn't know what I was expecting going into it. But after like the first, honestly, the first segment,

I was like, okay, I'm locked in, let's go. And it keeps getting, you know, more interesting. And then by the end, you're sitting there like, bro, like, it's like that, you know? What was the best segment when I watch it tonight? What would you say is the one where you're just like, all right, this is the one that kills you? Like, to me, it's between the last ride of the Osiris

and the first Renaissance and the Second Renaissance, like the ones that kind of tell you about the beginnings of the Matrix. Jomi, what about you? I agree with the first Renaissance and the Second Renaissance. I enjoyed both parts of that. But honestly, I liked a detective story a lot. Really good. It was really good.

Like, I'm into the noir stuff. And so, like, that entire thing was pretty cool in the ending. You know, I'm not going to spoil the ending, but, like, I enjoyed it. I got a quick show love to world record. I think that was probably my favorite. It's from the animation team that did Eon Flux. And it's about a dude that just break. the Matrix, unbeknownst to him by doing something incredible.

This generates so much power that he breaks the Matrix. So can I also ask this question? Sure. I don't know if we're on the fence. Star Wars Visions is coming out. It seems like we're going to devote an episode to that. Did watching the Anim Matrix get you more hyped up for seeing like something similar done in the Star Wars?

This is what it got me hyped up for. It got me hyped up for my new nickname on this show. old man van is who I always am but now you can call me Mr. Anime If you if you refer to me on Twitter or on any of the socials

I would like to be called Mr. Anime. I got to be honest with you. I love anime. I love to what I thought that I didn't like the way anime looked. I was wrong. I didn't get myself a chance. What was the one that turns you off? Like, what was the anime you watched with like,

fuck all anime? It wasn't that it was fuck all anime. It was like I was, there's something called anime slavery to where I would be trying to watch something else and then people would be like, there's an anime that's better about what you're watching. Yeah. And I think that,

like, it was rebellion. Right. Like when I got it to Dragon Ball Z, it was easy. It was accessible. It was, you know,

it was right there, you know, and it was, but like, Like all of this other stuff, these kids will come up to you and be like, there's an animal about these guys that live in the fourth level of hell and they're fighting using star power. I'd be like, get away from me.

I don't want to do that. I don't want to watch that. You have to watch it. All the fucking stuff that you're watching is terrible. The best stories are in this. I'm like, no, get away. But guess what? They were right.

No, here's the thing. Here's the thing. When I'm recommending anime, what people don't realize is you've got to start. It's like recommending an MCU movie. I wouldn't go. like, oh, the first MCU movie, you should watch us Thor the Dark World. You know what I'm saying?

I'm going to give them a crowd pleaser. I'm going to give them a Guardians of the Galaxy. I'm going to start you with something that everybody can love. You don't start from the beginning anymore. If somebody was going to watch the MCU, would you be like, all right, start from the beginning? Probably not. I'd start from Iron Man, yeah.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't. If I want to get them like, heart? You wouldn't start from Iron Man? No, not if they're like, if they've never seen an MCU movie before. Like, you've got to start them with something that's like a general crowd reason,

like a Black Panther. If I'm talking to Um, Johnson, I'm like, watch Black Panther. Jesus Christ, if that's the only one, Umar Johnson, you watch. Hey, Van, I want you you've never seen The Office. Let me start you on season three, episode six of the Office.

I actually would. I actually would for the Office. I would not start people from the first episode of the Office. Start on Season 2. Just start the Office. Can I be honest with you? I have started watching the Office. And to me, the first season of the Office is by far the best season

to me. It is wild. That first season is wild. It is wild. This is the worst take. That's bold. This is the worst take. So let me tell you why I think that it was darker. Like the office and like they even look different.

Like the like the off the first season of the office where he. It's the basketball episode. They have the basketball episode alone is worth its existence. The basketball episode. And then when he tells her that she got fired and she didn't really get fired, He goes, she cries. She cries. You got ex-punk.

And like, that Michael Scott kind of doesn't continue. Like, that truly asshole fucked up guy. I like the first season the best. No, season two is one of the best seasons of TV ever. Like, this is the wildest thing. Anyway, I like the first season of best. Do you like Ted Lassow? Are you enjoying Ted Lassow?

Love Ted Lassow. I wish Ted Lassow was a superhero so we could talk about it. but the midnight mob is not going to allow us. Love to that last. All I'm saying is this. Van Mr. Anime Lathan is in on all animas. All right. Before,

we got to wrap up this because we're going long, but for the next of anime segment, what do you think we're talking about next? Is it going to be Attack on Titan? Let's do Attack on Titan for the next one. Then we'll do My Hero Macadamian nut. And then after that, we can do visions. We got visions next week.

And then Neon Genesis Evangelion. No, that's not the name of it. I don't know why you guys should say this. That's not the name with a fucking thing. It's Neo-Geo Evander Holyfield. That's the name of it. By the way, the funniest thing is, I got people in my mentions calling it different names, too.

It's so funny. Neon Dionne, somebody said. Neon Dionne. So, yeah, no, but I'm into it. That show, that show is a tough watch. That's like a Cormick-McCarthy novel. It's rough. That's a tough watch.

Yeah. Gotta be emotionally ready for it. Right. Look, you guys, we've got a lot of places. We've done a lot of things. We've given you what if we've talked about it. Look, you guys, here's the thing. I just want to let everybody know.

Here at the Midnight Boys, for me, for the Midnight Mobster, known as TD. For Sixth Steve, for Arjuna, the architect. For Jomey the Explaner, for Code Baby Chuck, aka the closer, aka Kobe Bean, Chuck. Like, we love the MCU. We love it.

Love it, yeah. We love the MCU. It might feel like we spent a little bit of time nitpicking at the What If episode today. It's fresh on our brains. What If is a challenging show. And because What If is a challenging show,

it's challenging you to think of things in new ways. Sometimes we have to discuss those new ways here on the podcast. It's all family. The MCU's part of our family, okay? So I'll need you guys go into Facebook.

I'll need you guys go on to Twitter. I'll need you guys going to these places and saying anything about me. Say it all about Charles. Whoa. He's the one who said

he didn't like it. Charles hates, he hates, what if? He thinks it's trash. He's never positive. Bye, why is he on the show? That's enough. Look, you guys,

whoo, please join Mal for her deep down. into what if episode six. Make sure to check in with us at Ringiverse on Facebook, IG, and Twitter. Join and send your questions, please. Check in next week for more surprises.

We love our production team here on The Midnight Boys. Our producer, Steve Alman. We have Jomi Adiron on socials. Additional production by Arjuna Ramgapal and of course, TD. You know all their nicknames. I've sent them all.

These are our guys. We love our team. Charles, please give us an outro and make it appropriate, dog. What did I are? Yeah. All right, guys, guys, guys, I love me some appetizers.

And I adore a can of pay. Old Man Van is dead. Instead, we got Mr. Anime. We out. Wait, Ben, all I have to ask, Ben, what do you have against our Black brothers and sisters rising up against the oppressor? Nothing.

I don't know. Lately, you've been saying some shit. where I'm just like, the Illamnadi got you. The Illamnati got you. Is that true? You think they got me? I don't think they got you, bro.

I don't think they have anything to do. I'm with it. I'm with it. I think you got the Oscar statue and they got a little, a little chip that they implanted in you. You know what I'm saying? With the brain waves.

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