The Ringer-Verse - ‘What If ...?’ Episode 8 Instant Reactions, ‘Star Wars: Visions,’ and Nerd News

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

Charles and Van break down the penultimate episode of Season 1 of Marvel’s “What If...?” (03:58). They also break for Nerd News and discuss the latest lawsuit involving Disney and the copyright of its Marvel characters (35:40). Then they dive into the acclaimed anime anthology ‘Star Wars: Visions’ and talk about the best new stories to come out of the series (46:56). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Did I tell you that we relaunched our TV podcast that is now called the Prestige TV Pot? We did it in time for Succession, which is launching in October. But there's so many good shows this fall. We got Yellowstone and billions and insecure. We're going to be breaking all of it down. The morning show season finale, we are going to be here. Like, we're treated like we treat the NBA playoffs. If there's a really good prestigious TV show, we're breaking it down in this feed.

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This is, of course, the Ringers' Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. We are, 6th Steve Almich, Jomey, the explainer,

A Dinner on, old man, man, Lathan, and the closer himself. Coke, baby Chuck. Together,

we are of the midnight, boys. Happy, whew! All right, programming reminders for you guys. This Friday, now we'll be back

with a deep dive look into what if Monday very special episode do you remember how back in the day on sitcoms they would do a very special episode of the sitcom and it would like tackle an issue

you know I remember one time the growing pains did a very special episode and it was on drugs and it was this girl and Mike Seaver had gone to a party and this girl had like cocaine in her pendant, and she was sharing the cocaine with everyone, and it was like, oh, my God.

Then after the show, they talked to the audience about drugs and stuff like that. Well, we got a very special episode of the House of Midnight, a Midnight Boy's House of Mal collaboration on Venom. Can I just tell you guys it's going to be a very special episode because your boy is snorting the purest cocaine. I'm still on a high. Oh, that's it. from watching this movie.

I can't wait. You guys are going to have to get me some help. Woo! I'm so excited. Wow, we're going to have to bring somebody in. An intervention, maybe. Maybe an intervention, a live intervention. You guys don't want to miss it.

I've never been this happy, guys. So excited. Whoa. Chuck, baby, go. Go, baby Chuck. I'm Tony Montana. Tony Montana. All right, now.

He's going off at Yale. You know what I'm saying? Chi Chi, get the Yale. So that's going to be a discussion of Venom. let there be carnage on Monday. You do not want to miss it. We all saw this movie together.

Last night in Los Angeles, at least the West Coasters did. Charles saw it out there in New York. And the opinions were a flying, right? It's a very, very, very, oh, I can't wait. Very polarizing film. Make sure you follow Ringaverse on social. That's Facebook group, Twitter, and Instagram.

In this particular episode we're in right now, we are going to talk about our reactions to what if episode eight, which is, of course, What if dot dot, dot, Ultron 1. All right? We're also going to have a little bit of nerd news, and we're going to dive headfirst into one of the most beautiful experiences

that I've ever been a part of watching television, which is Star Wars Visions. Vanimay is here and he ain't going nowhere. I'm not going anywhere, okay? Anime is the way, the truth, and the life, all right? That's no disrespect to you. you, J-Gai, my homie, Jesus, Jesus up there.

But anime is great, and Star Wars Visions was equally as great, but we're going to save those reactions for a little bit later in the show. As for right now, I know you guys want to talk about what if Ultron 1. So can I please get my completely

unnecessary spoiler warning? We're getting ready to talk about the episode. You're listening to a reaction Podcast. The spoilers are coming. Yes, so we watched this.

And now it's time to react. So don't get mad if you hear what was actually in the episode. Come on, guys. All right. Another heavy one from What If? The Watcher has said, we've seen this before.

The universe in its final days of destruction, but this particular story breaks my heart that comes from the Watcher. The episode begins with that quote. Is even the outcome of this story implied to be known by the watcher?

Is this something, why is the watcher so potentially wrapped up in this one right here? I'm a little confused because the watcher is surprised throughout the episode. Spoiler alert,

Vision slash Ultron slash the living Invinity gauntlet gets this higher level of consciousness. And he finally sees the watcher. And he breaks through the and we get this big battle between Vision Ultron, Infinity Gauntlet, and The Watcher. I think that the Watcher, everything that he's, the story he's telling, potentially is him

in the future working with the Multiversal Avengers and his surprise is like the story unfolding as it unfolds. Does that make sense? So there's narrator and character Watcher. Right. Right. Exactly. I think that the Watcher is, is exactly. existing here in like two different streams here.

One, where he's unfolding the story for us. And two, the story is coming to him in real time. So we've seen, and I think it's actually a very interesting narrative thing and something that we need to pay attention to as an audience to understand how these time streams are actually existing in the MCU and also where the watcher is seeing us from. He's seeing us from a place that doesn't have any time that is not in the specific universe.

because he's looking at all the multiverses. So he's looking at things and they're happening at the same time. And I thought it was actually a powerful moment, almost a scary moment, when he realized that Ultron, vision, Infinity Gauntlet dude, was like perceiving him.

Like, wait, what? You know what I mean? When he realized that, it's like, oh, shit, it's about to get real. And so I liked it. It actually, to me, it showed a little vulnerability and a little fear from the watcher

and the watcher to this point hasn't been scared of anything. He's been sort of he's been emotional about things. He's been conflicted about whether or not he should intervene, but he's never been like,

yo, is this motherfucker about to come from me? I thought that was an interesting moment in the episode overall. The episode, the part of it I liked, I'm always down. always down for one last mission type of story. You begin with Natasha and Clint. They are the last seemingly humans, or at least last heroes on Earth. And they are trying to figure out a way to stop what I'm going to call perfect Ultron. Shout out to Dragon Ball Z and Perfect Cell. Perfect Ultron.

They're trying to stop him. And they're trying to find an AI who ends up being Zola, who can basically rewire all of his AI and get him out of here. And that part of the story, I thought was super, super interesting because we get to see the Black Widow with her shield. The Red Guardian Shield. Red Guardian Shield. We get to see Clint

with basically like a Bucky Winter Soldier type arm. I thought all of that was fascinating where it's like you take the two weakest Avengers and they have to go up against the most powerful foe. The other half of the episode did a very, very good job of jumping the multiversal shark.

I think your myelage will vary because when they jump the shark, I was just like, what am I watching? Tell me, tell me, so we started off getting directly into story. Give me your overall thoughts

about the episode right now. Is this a dud for you? I don't think it's a dud. I think the moment it jumps the shark is, is I was there emotionally at the core of having Hawkeye and Black Widow having to save the world, Hawkeye realizing like what is there left to avenge, and then having the flip of that death scene,

instead of Black Widow dying, it ends up being Hawkeye. I was there for that. The Jump the Shark moment is basically the Watcher goes super-Syenne at one point, gets all this armor and starts, like, fighting against Perfect Ultron. And Perfect Ultron gives him the hands. And as a lover of the comic books, I'm like, I think this is a little weird. The Watcher is always someone to his name who's watching. He's never meant to really involve himself.

And in the comics, that's always a thing. Should I involve myself? Should I not? And he's done it before. I have never seen him. Shout out to Steve saying he had Sailor Moon armor before we got on. Just being like, all right, I'm Superwatcher. Let me fight Parna Galtron.

And I'm like, all right, we might have gone one step too far in the like, what is happening. Because to my knowledge, this is all canon. So this is all happening. This could be in the movies at any time. Van, you seem to not have the same reaction that I did. So The Watcher is one of those characters They used to have the Marvel series three cards back in the day, right? The Marvel cards where you'd flip the card on the back

And it would tell you on the back, you know, it would give you the powers of the person And it would be like, if you'd look at some of your favorite characters You'd be like, damn, he sucks. You know? Or you look as you look on the back of a character That you weren't as familiar with And be like, Jesus Christ, they're super powerful.

Yeah, because they used to have like, they do it still on like Marvel.com speed, intelligence. Agility, durability. I think they had like power or something like energy production, something like that. And there were characters that didn't show up that much in the comics like Roma and other people like that had all of these off the chain like eternity and all of these people that had it all. And the watcher when you looked at his card, he had like a lot of stuff. You know, he's a cosmic entity. No, the watcher is a very powerful being.

That's not actually like what I was scratching my head against. I guess him just like having to put on armor and start blasting people. Well, he was in Battle Watcher. That was Battle Watcher. It was just, it was like watching Voltron. It was just like, look, there's a way. There's got to be a way for the Watcher to like protect himself. You know, like he realized at first he was just going back and forth.

But he realized, oh shit, I'm in a fight. Now let me put my armor on and let me beat the combat watcher. The armor took me off. The armor was the one when he was fighting with the beams and everything, I was like, all right, that's cool. It's cool. The washer got moves. The minute he started putting on like the night armor, I was like, all right, guys. We've got to wrap this thing.

Right. Okay. Got you. All right. So Ultron attains universal consciousness. All right. Using the infinity stones. And then eventually multi-unmercial consciousness.

Because after he goes throughout the different realms, different parts of the universe and destroys them all, he, there's a silence there that allows him to attain a level of consciousness where he can perceive. the watcher and perceive the multiverse. This all comes back to one fucked up decision made by a guy who we all know as a billionaire, philanthropist, and playboy. Tony Stark fucked it up again. Tony Stark is responsible for multiversal genocide. Genius, billionaire, philanthropy, playboy, multi-generational universe. personal fucking all kind.

You killed everybody, Tony. Jesus Christ, man. Is this a lot for Tony to wear? This is exactly what would happen if we let just Tony Stark run wild. This is actually, I was just like, great. They went back, they did a flashback to Tony. And I was just like, yeah, get him.

Get him because he was dumb in age of Ultron. He made some dumb choices and this is what happens. But before we dig in too deep, I have two major questions to ask you about perfect Ultron. Sure. There was one moment where I kind of laughed in this episode where, like, Thanos comes out and he has four of the Infinity Stones.

He comes out of the portal. And then Vision with the Mindstone just goes with the laser goes, and just kills him. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He could take out Thanos that easily. It wasn't even a fight. It lasted a second.

That took me. I was like, whoa, whoa. how perfect is this Ultron with just one infinity? So this is what I thought about that. I thought number one, it was the element of surprise that it just happened to be that Thanos came right in front of them and Vision peeped the scene real quick and went, huh? And just fucking blazered them.

All right, lased them up. And that's not completely without precedent because if you remember, had Thor gone for the head with Stormbreaker, then he might have killed Thanos in Wakanda, Thanos, in Wakanda. So the fact that Thanos is, at least in this universe, somewhat still vulnerable when he has even all five infinity stones is not completely without precedent. But it was a little bit jarring where I was just like, wait, wait, wait, everything I know about the Mad Titan,

he'd at least last for a couple more seconds than that. He's not getting dispatched with just one laser. Come on. You know what I mean? Look, it seems to me when he's got the reality stone, he's got the time stone, he's got the soul stone, he's got all of them except for one.

It seems to me that maybe he could have perceived that attack coming and instantaneously did something about it because his power level was so raised. But guess what he didn't? He got caught slipping. And he got cung loud right there. He got cung wild right there. This is like at the end of the wire.

Oh, that's a spoiler for the wire. No, let's not do that. If you haven't watched the wire yet, I'm sorry. The series wrapped up in 1979. But we have to give you guys a spoiler. That's a spoiler for the wire, by the way. Wait, wait, one more question. You were talking about multiversal consciousness.

do you think that Kang would be able to see the watcher? Yes. What we know of Kang, he knows of the other multiverses. He's basically at the end of Loki sitting at a nexus point

where he can see all of time, all of these universes. I was like, damn, does Kang know that the watcher is here? I doubt that there's anything about the multiverse that King doesn't know. But I personally believe

that this situation with perfect Ultron is different for the watcher because the watcher was directly attacked. I think Kane focuses his energy on the time stream and timelines and the different multiversals or whatever. This Ultron wanted to subjugate everyone, and so it was important to him that he get to the watcher as well. Remember, he came directly at the watcher. He'd just do his thing.

In order for this Ultron, Perfect Ultron. to have its, for it to be useful, for it to get to the point of fulfilling its program, it has to kill everyone and bring ultimate peace. And so a guy watching and narrating shit, you got to go too, motherfucker. As a matter of fact, you can unlock the secrets, which Kang doesn't need them to, you can unlock the secrets for me to go to other places and do the same shit to them, which is essentially going to lead him right back. to the same conclusion where he's alone by himself.

Yeah, that was my question. I was just like, he was having an existential crisis in the beginning of the episode because he, in a montage, he goes to everywhere. He goes to every single planet. He has to fight Captain Marvel. He's destroying them all. And he gets to the end of his universe, at least. And he's just like, man, was it all worth it?

And I'm just like, damn, I feel you, Perpicotron. I feel you. Okay? Because that's what you want to do. You just want to kill. You want to just kill everything, destroy everything, set everything on fire, and then sit around and wonder whether or not you should have done it at all. That's you. You are perfect ultra.

You're perfect. Add another nickname. You're my watcher. Yeah, I'm the watcher. And me and the watcher also got the same haircut. He's bald and I'm almost there. You know what? Maybe.

Maybe that's why the perfect ultron stuff brought me the wrong way because it was hard looking at myself. It was like looking in the mirror and I hated what I saw. Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's definitely very true. Like, you're looking at him. He's doing all of this. We're not sure of the real reason.

We're like, hey, bro, everybody's just trying to live their lives. Why you got to kill everyone? But that's your thing. You just like to watch things burn. You come on here right away and you said age of Ultron was better than the OG Avengers.

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Okay, Captain Marvel, she popped in. she's been getting a little run here as of late. We've been seeing a lot of Captain Marvel as of late. She got washed, not totally washed. She was a good fight. She put up a great fight.

She lasted longer than Thanos, which I was a little bit like, word. Right. She put up a great fight. Now, as a throwback to the last episode, remember in the last episode they talked about the fact that she was actually pulling her punches, something that the Facebook group was perturbed that we didn't point out.

So we'll point out now. She was pulling her punches in her fight with Thor because if she went full on, she could have destroyed the entire planet. And you see in this particular fight, she was not pulling her punches.

She was trying to kill Perfect Ultron. And they ended up destroying not just that planet, but what looked to be a solar system. Yes, a galaxy, whatever you want to call it. Her power unleashed

was almost like, you ever read like the Dark Phoenix, saga and they're just like, the Phoenix explodes and it's just like, play it, plan, plan, play, and play. Like, that's, that's what it felt like. You know what I'm saying? Which is like, can I just say that they're doing work over time for Captain Marvel because she just keeps coming in and they're like, oh, no, she's powerful.

But in this, she was still kind of the party pooper where she's just like, not on my watch. And I'm like, can we give her some quips? Like Captain Marvel, like, is strong. But, like, let's write some jokes for her. I'm sure Brie Larson can hit him off. Also, really quick, I don't. I don't know who voiced perfect Ultron in this, but his voice at first I giggled.

I was just like, this doesn't sound like Ultron. Yeah, I wonder why Spader, the Spader is Ultron. Spader had to come back and get busy, man. That wasn't James Spader. No, it was not. I was like, I was like, who is this voice? It does not sound like Ultron. Ross Marquan, voice Ultron.

Just comes in from the explainer. Spader got to come back and get busy. Here is a note. to Marvel. Captain Marvel got to win a fight. Speak on it. She's on a little bit of a losing streak here. I know that she was pulling her punches with Thor.

She didn't really get the job done there. She didn't really get the job done with Thor. She didn't really get the job done at the end of end game. She, in this situation, didn't really get the job done. Okay? She is supposed to be one of the MCU's, bit guns, and it seems like they're using this incredibly powerful character to really just show how powerful other characters are.

And that's very interesting to me. Do you think it's a Superman problem where Superman is so powerful in comics and TV and movies, it's very hard to make him interesting because, like, Superman, you know at the end of the day is going to win. That's why Lex Luther is such an interesting villain. because when he's going against Lex Luthor, it's not so much about punches. It's about ideals.

It's about what people believe in. And stuff like that. And I see with Captain Marvel, we keep seeing how powerful she is, but it's always contrasted to show you, well, that's how big the threat is, to your point. It's like, even Captain Marvel can't,

like, can't beat him. And I'm like, guys, there's a better way to write Captain Marvel. There has to be. There has to be. And I just want to call him out real quick. I think this is an interesting decision to make.

with perhaps between her and Wanda the most powerful female character in the MCU. And I say that because we see male characters like obviously these are characters we have a much longer journey with like Cap fucking will their way to these huge victories. Yeah.

Like will their way. We see it the way we see it with Thor. Thor's out here with the pop belly throwing down. You know what I'm saying? Like they just they come together and they will their way to these victories. And they stand up in the face of all things. And then they just seem to pop Captain Marvel in,

let her get beat up for whatever reason, or like hold her back for a second and then move on. And this one right here, I'll think that she'd even had her in it, to be honest with you. I mean, it was going to be hard to explain why she didn't come into it. But for her to then drag him to the core of Zandar and then lose, I was like, it's just, I just, I kind of sick of, I'm kind of sick of seeing that from her. I want to see them really put something into the character.

And maybe we will and see what the limits of her power are and who she really is and all like, I'm kind of sick of seeing that. It's starting to become a little one note. Do you also think that part of like the Captain Marvel problem that I'm noticing is because she really does not have like a supporting cast like the Avengers? She's always this character that's like off world. So a lot of times when she pops in, She doesn't have that, like, built-up relationship with, like, a Thor or an Iron Man or a Cap.

So she's kind of this other. And I think with the new movie, The Marvels, with her teaming up with Kamala Khan, potentially Blue Marvel, I think that'll make her a more interesting character. If you give her people to play off of that we care about, then it becomes less about, like, how powerful she is and becomes more about, like, who Carol Danvers is as, like, an emotional being. And she hasn't gotten that yet. But to be fair, it wasn't like Thor was getting that until like Thor Ragnarok. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And look, the power scaling is something we always talk about. But I watched it this time and I was like, when she showed up, I was like, how are they going to explain this? What are they going to explain? You know? I was a little bit like, it's weird.

She keeps popping up. She, either she gets washed or it's a tie. And you're like, all right, man. Like, can we get one win in here? But in this particular. episode though, nobody was going to be perfect Ultron. No, it's, it's, yes. He beat up the watcher, so nobody was going to be Perfect Ultron.

Now, the moment that the Watcher realized that Ultron could sense him, so you didn't have just jumped in right then. I was like, well, he waited for a little while. Well, the one thing I will say, story-wise, that I did like about this. Story-wise, what I did like

about the Watcher story and the Perfect Ultron story is that the best watcher stories are pushing the washer to question his morals, is it right to be to be a stand on standby? Because in the original comics, like the watcher is almost like a god. And the central theme of him, the central core of that character, is, is it all right for a god to watch as the people below him suffer? And I think Ultron pushing the watcher to be like, yo, you're just as messed up as me. Because you watch all of

these universes, you know what will happen. And you do nothing. I'm I thought that that was really, really good. That was really good storytelling. So when the end, back in when we started this what if journey, we were all like, yo, where did Dr. Strange go? He was in this little purple bead, like what happened to him? And the watcher going back and the twist is he has to work with this evil Dr. Strange. I thought that that was really, really brilliant because that episode was one of the first, and correct me if I'm wrong, where we saw the watcher almost really, really sad about the story he was watching unfold?

Yeah, he was not just sad, but at times desperate. The best part of the entire episode to me was when they were in the KGB headquarters, deep, deep, deep in the adults of the KGB in Mother Russia. And they're down there, and they've been searching through all of these files, which is just an impossible job. We never talk about the work ethic of these heroes. Hats off to Nat and Clint. I would have given up after like the fifth box.

I'm not going through all of them boxes, man. I'm going to go see what kind of snacks they got at the KGB and then I'm going to call it a night. But the watcher is begging Clint. Like willing Clint. I thought he was going to do something where he like tipped over the box or something. Same. Willing Clint to look into the box that has Armanzola's name in it.

So they can figure out. the answer that gives them at least a chance to take down the Ultron AI. And just the fact that you saw the watcher started off as this character that was lurking in the shadows bigger than anything that's going on almost couldn't seem to at this point getting this type of emotion from the character I thought was incredible to watch and very well played by Jeffrey Wright. You could really hear the humanity in this multiversal being. and I thought that was pretty cool.

He didn't intervene then. I thought maybe, you know, he might intervene. Like, he might have intervened before when he saw Ultron kind of getting to him. But it did matter because Ultron fucking brought the fight to him. I have a question regarding the Infinity Jones themselves. In the comics, it is a definite rule. And we've talked about it here on the... I peep-p-p-poo, Midnight boys before,

that the infinity stones only work in the universe that they belong to. That is a very central rule and a very important rule with the infinity stones. And they just set that up in Loki when they did the big punchline that all of the infinity stones are essentially paperweights when you take them out of the universe that they were made in. Now, here's the thing, though, did they set that up in Loki? And the reason why I asked that question is because is it possible that the Infinity Stones just didn't work in whatever realm the TVA exists in? But yet in this, in the MCU, unlike the comics, they do in fact work in other universes because this fight between the Watcher and, Perfect Ultron spanned different universes. And it didn't seem that Perfect Ultron lost the ability to be a dog by using the Infinity

Stones. We saw a universe where Steve Rogers was being sworn in as president. We saw a couple of different universes. They're crashing through the different universes, puncturing through them. And Perfect Ultron is still. getting in the watcher's ass. So did they just rewrite the rules on the power of the infinity stones?

Was it in fact the infinity zones that were at that point powering perfect Ultron? Or was the AI just so hopped up and piped up at that point that it was kicking the watcher's ass? I don't think that just Ultron with everything that he had been through without those stones could be doing that to the watcher.

But then that begs the question. question, are those Infinity Stones then working in other universes? Jomi, if you feel the need to jump in right now, you definitely can. I have an answer, but I want to hear Jomi's answer. I have a potential answer. I do think it is a plot hole, but I think I have a workaround for it to make sense. Jomi, do you have any explanations? I agree that we, you know, after watching Loki, we, you know, were told that the

infinity stones only work in the universes that they originate from. You know, they'd make the whole thing of look at all the, these, you know, time stones. Look at all these, you know, soul stones in the desk. We use them as paperweights. But the same time, we know that the TVA was lying to us on multiple fronts. So who knows if we can trust that? And honestly, Ultron by that point is such like a, like he had ascended from, you know, regular robot super dumb, you know, and had taken over the entire universe. So he was on another level. of power.

You understand what I'm saying? So maybe we don't see him using the infinity stones. I guess because they're attached to him. I could make the argument that being that powerful, it didn't, Infinity Stones on Infinity Stones, it didn't matter. He was coming for his hands either way. I think it is a massive model. But the way I would explain it away if I was their writers,

when he's punching the watcher and they're traveling through the multiverse, is that Ultron using the Infinity Stones? or is that the watcher himself getting punched so hard by Perfect Ultron that he is trying to escape through multiverses? So it's actually the Watcher who is doing that. It's not actually Ultron. Could be. Yeah, that's what I see.

Yeah, could be. The question, though, is that if Perfect Ultron doesn't have the Infinity Stones, then how could he even punch the Watcher that hard in the first place? So if Perfect Ultron doesn't have the Infinity Stones, and the infinity stones aren't jacking him up. Because remember, I don't think that perfect Ultron, meaning the highest level of Ultron, without being powered by the stones,

would be a problem for the watcher. I think it might be a problem for the heroes on Earth, but I think even the heroes on Earth, all the heroes on Earth, without the Infinity Stones, all the heroes on Earth. Because it even says when they're talking about it, they go power by the Mindstone,

he was able to do all of this stuff. That's what it says when he, where they say how he took over everything, because he had the mine stone, powered by the mindstone. Because in that situation, Thanos is around the, Thanos is a Thanos,

Thanos, fucking Thanos is around the, is around the galaxy, gathering up the rest of the infinity stones. Except for, you know, on earth where there's really only one that's in use at that time, that being the mindstone.

He is then using the minds. So the mindstone is the supreme power on the plant. at that point. So everybody fell to him, failed to Perfect Old Strong because he had the mine stone. And then when Thanos comes, he then gets the rest of them and now

no one halfway, now he's a universal threat. Because remember, he didn't go off-world and start fucking over other people in the universe until he had all of the infinity stones. So that made him a universal threat and not just like an earthly

threat when he got the rest of him. So he's jumping around, Zandar, Asgard, you know, ego just defeated the celestial, basically. Ego, like, did all of this stuff and then he comes back, which then makes him powerful enough to take on the watcher when he reaches the new level of consciousness. The only thing that I'm saying is, number one, once he penetrates through to wherever the watcher is, and then once they start going to other universes, shouldn't that have made the power that he was getting from those infinity stones null and void?

unless those rules don't exist like we thought that they did in the MCU. Then I'm going to give you a very special award. It is a very historical award. We're going to give you a Marvel no prize for explaining away a continuity era in a very convoluted way. Oh, okay. No, your explanation was good, but you're doing a lot of homework. You were just like, all right, guys, I got this. He was doing my job.

He was doing my job. He gave us like a thesis. It had three states. I just noticed that when I watched the episode, I'm like, that shouldn't be working. And by the way, there's going to be some intrepid person on Facebook or some intrepid person on Twitter that goes, no van, you missed it. And look, we appreciate you guys. I bet you can tell my tone of voice just how much I appreciate that.

I got to be honest with you, all those aside, just as an aside, I hope everybody listening to the podcast right now can understand this. I am tickled by all the interaction that we get from the fans. I love when you guys talk about the podcast. Because sometimes you're sitting here, you're talking, you don't know how. I love it. The good and the bad and everything. So please keep it coming.

But real quick, Strange Supreme, happy to see them back. Honestly, I probably would have loved what if more. If they had leaned into what's going to happen, the multiversal Avengers, I think it's such a good idea. Like, it's such a smart, funny idea. happy to see him back. I just want to see the Multiversal Avengers get busy. I got to say overall, my thoughts on the episode, we did a lot of

talking about it, which tells you that I think was a great entry. My thoughts on the episode was this was a good episode. Once again, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark. You know what I'm saying? Like, these episodes are dark. I'm talking it darker than Blade 2. Like, these episodes are

just some dark stuff. I will say we got one more episode. I feel like I've run the what-if marathon. I can't wait for Hawkeye. Can't wait for Bogafet. I've run the marathon. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess.

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Visit weathertech.com today. All right. Let's get to a little bit of nerd news. Yeah. Disney led by the one Mr. Michael Mouse, as you like to call it, is suing to maintain total control. of a lot of its MCU characters. The dispute started in the spring

when a prominent intellectual property lawyer Mark Toberoff served Disney, served Marvel Entertainment, I say, which Disney owns, with notices of copyright termination on behalf of five clients. Disney then countered to maintain control. All right, a couple of questions here, Charles. Is it reasonable to assume that Disney will settle this

and remain the holder of the rights? What is the best case scenario for, creators and their families. We also saw a similar lawsuit just recently by some of the families of the creators of Spider-Man who want to sue to get the rights to Spider-Man back. There is a fantastic documentary about a gentleman named Bill Finger, who I think we all know, who was instrumental in the creation of Batman, and didn't get his credit on that till long after his death, as his family kept up the fight. Batman and Bill,

a Hulu documentary, it is very, very good if you want to learn about the history of Batman and just comic books in general. Watch that. Yeah, it's a great documentary.

And about the history of how some of these people, these brilliant men and women who created these characters, don't really get to see the generational spoils of what their families created. Should I say their families don't get to create?

Not even. just the generational spoils, let's be clear, a lot of the creators of your favorite comic book heroes died very poor. Like, just forgotten by the industry, the comic book industry did them very, very dirty. So I think, like, the thing that we have to actually focus on is in the Hollywood reporter, it said, quote, if the plaintiffs win, Disney expects to at least hold on to at least a share of character rights as co-owners, the studio would have to share profits with the others. Additionally, the termination provisions of copyright law

only apply in the U.S., allowing Disney to continue control and profit from foreign exploitation. Here's the thing. We're not even talking about them like owning the characters outright to the best of my knowledge from reading the article. We're just talking about a lot of the, a lot of the, what you can call it, the people, the families, just want money from a part-ownership,

which to me is I'm just like, seems kind of fair. Like actually, not kind of. Seems very fair if we're being honest. It is fair. Let me ask you guys a question now. It is, and this is for all the Midnight Boys. And this is for the Midnight Riders

and the Midnight Mob out there too. This is for everybody to consider. We love these movies. We love these movies. we love these characters, we love these entities. It is certainly easier and a more streamlined process

to get these movies churned out in the speed and at the level that we want them to get churned out that there's one sole owner. It's probably easier and in a way cheaper and more profitable for Marvel to do it that way. Meaning if they're making more money,

they probably make more stuff, right? And they make stuff faster. So the fact that Marvel Studios was able to come around and make all of this great stuff that we've seen in the MCU is partly, and I'd say largely due to the fact that they finally were able to hone in on characters that they own completely.

Meanwhile, before, it was a mishmash of, hey, we're going to do Spider-Man. You know, Spider-Man has the rights to Sony. we don't have the Incredible Hulk, the X-Men, all of those other things are owned by different people. They were able to hone into characters they owned completely. They had complete creative control. They were able to do whatever they wanted on the fly.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It would complicate things even to a smaller degree, even if it's just paying out money because then that's less money for the studios if, you know, more people come into the pot. The question for the fan bases, and for everybody here is that, would you rather Marvel have complete control of everything

and Marvel and Disney have complete control everything to be able to make the shows and the movies that you like come to you in the same way that they had? Or is there a loyalty with the people whose legacies aren't getting recognized and whose families aren't getting money to the point that you would rather there be a little bit more complication than all of this stuff

and a little bit more hands in the pot and maybe a little bit more of an uncertain future with the stuff, but people that deserve to get paid for it, get paid. I'll be honest with you. I've read a lot about comic book history lately, and the stuff that breaks my heart is like, can you call yourself a fan of the Fantastic Four or the X-Men or Spider-Man if we're not honoring the people who had to sacrifice their lives to make it?

And the thing that I always want to fight for is like, Yeah, we'll get more complicated, sure. But I'm a fan, if I'm a fan of these characters, then I'm a fan of the men and women who created it. And let's get complicated. Because I really, really do think that, like, one of the biggest sins that the comic book industry ever let run wild is how they treated these artists and writers.

Like, if you look at somebody like Jack Kirby, like Jack Kirby back then was quite literally just fighting for credit. He just wanted his name to be next to the characters, not just as an artist. For people who don't know, the Marvel method, a lot of these amazing stories, these Spider-Man Fantastic 4 X-Men stories, was essentially a writer being like,

all right, I think X, Y, Z happens in it, and they would give it to an artist, and the artist would essentially plot the entire story, create characters from whole cloth, from nothing, and then somebody would come in and pencil in the words. Yeah. And the writer would get the majority of the credit, and the artist would get nothing,

and the whole thing that they would use is it's work for hire. It's work for hire. What do you expect? You can't go anywhere. This is the, we're talking about Great Depression times. We're talking after the war. We're talking all this stuff. And every day I will fight for us to not only respect our elders and respect the people that built this foundation who are no longer here. But yo, give reparations to the family. If it's messier and we don't get stories as fast or as many, that's fine. That is fine for me. I love all this stuff. But if we're going to, if you're going to say you're a family, of this and you're going to say you are a fan of these characters, you also got to be a fan of the people who made it possible. And I know a lot of people, you're like,

I'm mad at that, but I'll die on that hill. I got to be honest with you. I think that's the right way to feel. I mean, let's be real, too. This isn't just a, we ain't just talking about people who are like dead and gone, like Jack Kirby, Steve Dicko. Recently, we've had people like Ed Rubaker who had that amazing run on Captain America with Winter Soldier being like, yo, like,

I haven't really seen anything for this. I had to beg to just, I had to text Sebastian Stan just to get into the movie. Like that, like, creators are, Toneheese Coates wrote this beautiful feature where he was basically like, yo, Marvel has to treat their creators better. This is something that, like, we are still treating creators. Like, this is like the 1950s, 1960s. And that has to stop. Now, can I give somebody a shout out while we're doing this?

Yes, please. Simon Kimberg. I'll tell you why I'll give Simon Kimberg a shout out. Simon Kenberg, I know. Some years ago I went to the X-Men Dark Phoenix premiere. We're not talking about the movie, which wasn't as bad as what people say it was, but you know, it's like, whatever.

But at that movie, I'm like, I'm in the movie. It's just a weird situation because you forget, like, who Simon is, right? And so there's an after-party, and it's at his house. So, like, you're at the after-party and it's at his crib. and, you know, Simon introduced you to somebody and be like, hi, this is Orlando Bloom. I'm like, hey, hi. Hi, Orlando. How are you?

Legis. How's the bow coming? You know, and there's all of these people that are there, right? And then he turns around and he introduces me to a guy. He's like, Van, this guy was my, it was a special guest here, and he's been advising me and talking to me and helping me all throughout. this movie and is the one person I wanted to make sure that you met and it was Chris Claremont. Who! Oh, man.

That must have been a special moment. And I'm sitting there and I'm talking and everybody laughed because I am just listening to Chris Claremont. There's actually a picture I posted it on my Instagram back in the day. I'm just listening to Chris Claremont talk. But I'm also seeing the respect that Simon had. the respect that he had for the guy who redefined the X-Men or maybe define the X-Men. Not only define the X-Men, but, like, defined, like, modern superhero storytelling. Like, is that guy?

And just the fact that Claremont was there, he was holding court, everyone was talking to him, and he was involved in the production of the movie. Like, they were talking to him. He was, it wasn't just a part of his legacy that some director took and did whatever with it. And I thought that was important. I just think it's important that in order for these stories to exist in the future, we're going to need more creatives to come out and more characters and new characters and different stories. And in order to foster a sort of ecosystem where those people can can feel comfortable delving into this and can feel inspired to,

We got to make sure we take care of the people who built the foundations we're standing on right now. So, you know, I don't know how this is going to turn out. But I do know that we're getting to a point to where we're talking about billions of billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars. And some of that money's got to find this place. Hey, man, all I'm saying is just like, this ain't the first time we're going to talk about is probably not like the second, third. Like, Scholarjohn, who didn't even create characters. It's just like, yo, where's my piece of the pot? Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, it's going to get a. lot messier before it gets cleaned up. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you.

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Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. I tell you what is clean, though. Star Wars Visions. Now, we're about to talk about Star Wars Visions, guys, okay? We're about to go to the Vanamee Corner.

The Vaname Corner. It's right, the Vanname Corner here. Look, guys, we have to give an anime spoiler warning right now for all of Star Wars. Steve, do we have one recorded? We do, yes. Let's do it. We're getting ready to talk about anime.

You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Really quick before we get into Star Wars Visions, I want to send a special shout out to Steve. We make a lot of fun of six Steve, but this man is a wizard when it comes to, like, creating shit on the fly. Like, I was surprised by that.

You are a genius, Steve. He is the man. If you can pull that, that's actually Michael B. Jordan saying anime in what if. Oh, really? Yeah. A lot of people do say I look like him. Shut up.

Star Wars Visions, the anime anthology series that gives us new and exciting stories for the world of Star Wars. There were nine that came out. The duel Tatooie Rhapsody, the twins, the Village Bride, the Ninth Jedi, 2B1, the Elder Lop and Ocho, and Aka Kiri. All right, the creative visions, it's been on record saying that these stories are not canon. but before I even get into a specific discussion of what I thought was fantastic. Charles, what did you think of Star Wars Visions? Loved it.

I absolutely loved it. It was a delight. It was a joy. It was a pallet cleanser. I think it is not, I don't know if this will get me in hot water for saying, but like the Star Wars fandom is probably the most, one of the most conservative fandoms out there. Like if you do something like that's wrong, they will get mad. They will have their pitchforks.

out. But I think Star Wars Visions is everything that Star Wars should be. It should be something that's showing you far, galaxies far, far away, and showing you new ways of thinking about things. I think that's what's so beautiful about Star Wars visions is that you

have these anime studios taking something that, like, Star Wars, essentially if you're, like, down to its core, is our samurai tales. That's what George Lucas in not just sci-fi, but like old Kurosawa like samurai. And I love the fact that it goes back to Japan. It goes back to these studios.

And they're now like reinvigorating it. Not every single one worked. But even the ones that didn't work, I'm just like, I'm happy to be in this world for like 15, 20 minutes. So I can't speak highly of the series enough. What about you, Van? What did you feel? I felt like you felt, but I also felt in a different way is that Star Wars in and of itself was exposed by Star Wars visions. Speak on it. So the reason why we love Star Wars in the first place is because of the imagination. Right? We imagined different lands.

We imagined different creatures. We imagined different powers. We imagined different weapons. We imagined different factions. Imagination is what hooks you into this stuff, right? Put you, like you said, in place far, far galaxy a long time ago, you know? what Star Wars has lost in this IP universe is imagination. Instead of imagining in a new story,

we're going to give you the story of how Hans Solo first came to be. Instead of imagining a different universe with different stakes, we're going to redo the first three with new faces and new characters and keep the same journey going. Even that lacked imagination. Not that it wasn't fulfilling with Force Awakens particularly, but it lacked imagination. It was a very familiar feeling to it at all.

These stories, these nine stories, were able to capture the essence of what Star Wars means with a completely new take. You got the same feeling in watching this, the stakes of it, the one person against evil, the presence and power of the force, the connection with people,

the connection to people that Star Wars is built on, right? So, like, when you're talking about the old stories, not really built on all of these. It's not empire versus resistance. It's really father versus son. Yeah. These were able to inject humanity

and human stakes and real emotions into them in a way that Star Wars, let's be honest, hasn't been able to pull off. I would say, I would give it to the Mandalorian. I think the Mandalorian. The Mandalorian, obviously the Mandalorian. Like, obviously the Mandalorian.

So, yeah, let me see this. Obviously the Mandalorian, right? But in terms of the movies, and Bad Batch is also incredibly good as well. But I will also say, like, I will say the new movies, all of them weren't terrible. But like, you see what happened with The Last Jedi. Someone tried to do something new,

even if you didn't like it or not. And we saw what happened when someone tried to be like, what if we turned the story and did something unexpected? And I think with Star Wars visions, even though, like, they're saying, like, it's not canon, I remember when I was watching the duel, I was just like, all right, this is cool, this is cool. And then the Sith jumps,

and the lightsaber umbrella comes. And I'm like, oh, this is, this takes me back to, like, being, like, 10 and drawing my own lightsaber and being like, what would my lightsaber be like? That it had that kind of inventiveness and that type of, like, child wonderment. And you're just like, I really just liked it.

It was just so low stakes. It's honestly what I kind of wish what if was a little bit more where it's taking stuff that we know and using animation to be like, well, what if we just like built these Lego bricks into something

that's never been seen before? Yeah, I just loved it. I will say, you know, these stories aren't canon. And so this is, these are offshoots. We get to take a, when something's not canon,

except for the Star Wars legend stuff, which I devoted years of my life to, How did you feel when they were just like, that's like getting no more. On some real shit, I was pissed the fuck off. What's the fucking mean? Like, on some real shit, that's a fucked up thing to do with people. I'm serious, man. That's a fucked up thing to do to people.

That's millions upon billions of dollars. You were just like, eh, I know y'all love that, but not important anymore. No, we're reading a lot of shit, bro. Like, I could have been, you know what, I could have been, I could have been the president. And then You know what I'm saying? The thing that stopped you from being the president van Was Star Wars legends

I was reading like I was reading too much legends I was reading I should have been the president And they come around and they tell me It don't matter I would have been the president right now We'd be better off by the way

Would you have like to see more recognizable characters from Star Wars in there I think do we get we got Bobafet We got Jabba fat But here's my thing The other thing that I think they did Really really well So I'm like, yo, we got three movies of the Skywalker's.

By the end of it, like three new movies, we now have nine movies of the Skywalker clan. And I'm like, I don't care about the Skywalker's at all. After the Han Solo movie, I'm like, please no, please never. People are going to kill me for saying this. I love the Mandalorian. When spoiler alert, this is a spoiler alert, if you have not seen Mandalorian, do not get mad at me.

The spoilers are coming. When he takes off the hood and it's revealed to be Luke Skywalker, I was kind of to piss because I was just like, oh, now this is... You're a nuts bastard. You're nuts. From a storytelling perspective, I'm like, I've had so much Skywalker stuff. Well, that's what it would have been? You're nuts and you're very... I don't care it would have been.

I actually thought it was going to be Ezra from Star Wars Rebels. I do like rebels. But anyway, right. I'm just at this point where I just, like, I think that Star Wars Visions is really, really good because they're just like, create some new shit. Just create all new shit. Okay. It's very true.

Some of these, uh, studios that created these things are some of the best studios in anime. Here, I'll break, I'll break some down. So the first, the first one that probably was a head scratcher for a lot of people was the Twins, which was animated by Studio Trigger. Do you remember watching, what was your first reaction to watching the Twins? The Twins was cool. It wasn't necessarily my favorite.

The twins was cool. It was bold because they had people breathing in space. And then funnily enough, they had a droid with a, helmet on was like, what? They had a lightsaber that's like huge cell. I was wondering about that, you know what I mean? So, but the, the, the twins wasn't my, well, wasn't my favorite. So Studio Trigger did both the twins and the elder.

And I like both of them. And Studio Trigger, for those that don't know, was founded by former Gynix animators. And basically, like, if you like the twins or the elder, I would go watch Gur and Loggin, which is on Netflix now or Kill out Kill. because Studio Trigger's whole thing is that it's big, it's bright, it is people in space don't need helmets,

it's all very much like a kaleidoscope of just bombast. So that is very much a studio type thing. And even if you looked at, my favorite of all of them was the Ninth Jedi. It's the best one. The Ninth Jedi was my favorite.

Even though it wasn't canon, I'm like, the coolest thing of that episode when there was like, oh, like, if you're new with the force, you don't have a color. And that is not canon. Colors come from the chiber crystals. But I love that this woman Jedi, which gets really, really good with the Force, then she gets a color. Because that says something about the characters. What did you think of the Ninth Jedi?

I thought that was number one by God. The Night Jedi was my favorite one. I also loved the elder. That was my studio trigger as well. So good. The animation was so. So. Oh, good.

And the elder, man. Oh, my God. The elder got to me, bro. God damn it. The elder, I cried. When they almost killed the little light skin, dude? Yeah. I was just like, no.

What a black Jedi always got to die. Yeah, the elder got to me, bro. The elder, I loved, I loved, I loved the elder, man. If you liked also the Ninth Jedi, production IG, they worked on one of my favorite anime of all time, Haiku, which is about a boy. volleyball team and it will make you cry and believe in anything or one of the greatest anime of all time fully coolly which you cannot explain i can't explain to you but if you like that

you will like fully cool it's not going to be about it's not going to be like neon sign oh it's just as weird it's just as weird it is uh let's just say it's about puberty and a robot and an alien girl and that's as much as i can do a lot of stuff here with star wars visions my favorite ones were The Ninth Jedi, Toby, the elder and the duel. Those are my favorite ones. Toby won. You didn't have any love for Akikari? Akikari was good.

Akkari was, I think that was probably the most beautiful looking one of just like style. But you, I think I'm with you. I think the Ninth Jedi is the best. I will go, oh, I think I'm going to go Akikari second, the elder, Lappinacho. was good this is good stuff man it's hard to talk about

all of them because you're like La Panacho was good when I saw the little Bunny Jedi and like she gets adopted by the family and like the father

She fighting against her sister yeah to give her the white saber oh my God it's so precious and cute I cared so much which one looked

to you which one the animation to you looked you know which one I liked Toby one. Toby one was so cute. That looked like, I liked him.

He was plucky. I like pluck. Also, you never really think of a droid as a Jedi. No, you don't. Because I'm not sure that that can happen. Well, there's General Grievous. He wasn't a Jedi, but he could wield lightsabers. Yeah, he could wield lightsabers. So I really liked the animation. That reminded me on, that reminded me of animation

anime I was like comfortable with that scene around. You know, when they kind of make them all cute and a little like that. I thought the most visually striking one to me, personally, I don't know why I felt like it was the duel. The duel was the one I'm like, wow. Like having that one first goes, hey, like, you're actually watching anime, anime here. They're not just, you know, like, you're watching. It reminded me of the animatrix where it's just like, we're actually going to do this thing. We're not going to do it like just halfway. When the duel was on, I was like, oh, they are, this is anime. And can I just say about the.

do it really quick. Not only was the lightsaber really cool, but I love if we're talking about new ideas, I love the idea of the samurai who's using a blade that's for the Sith, but he's not Sith. He's going around. He's collecting the Khyber crystals. Essentially,

he's like a bounty hunter being like, we don't really know what the Sith did to him, but he's essentially just going around killing them all. I'm like, this is such a cool idea. This is like what I would have never thought of this. Yeah. I love exploring force users who are either gray Jedi's or not Jedi's.

I love that. I love exploring force users that have, they're driven by their own deal. I love that so much. Or even the Ninth Jedi when the guy, there is like this big dude who they're having a fight and you realize the plot twist is that the Sith have surrounded these three Jedi.

And there's one whose blade goes from red to purple and he apologizes and he's like, the darkness got to me. It was such a little thing, but I was like, that is cool because if you know anything like Mace Windu, Mace Windu was one of the greatest Jedi, but the thing that held him back, a lot of times was his anger. Yeah, he was angry, angry guy.

Oh, man. I have a question for you real quick. Yeah. And everybody has to weigh in on all the socials. Just a sidebar question real quick. Did Mace Windu defeat Palpatine straight up? Or did Palpatine let him win? to turn Skywalker.

Hmm. I don't want them to yell at me, because this might be, this might be me rocking with my people, but I've always felt Mace Windu got the best of Palpatine. Steve? That's tough,

because you can make that play either way. Like, you could, I can believe either one. I'd like to think that Mace Windu won, though. Jummi, I'm rocking with my boy Mace. Mace had him dead to rights. I fall out of four, baby.

makes Windu want to fight Black Jedi Lives Matter Black Jedi Lives Matter Anyway So what do you think Which story did you feel like Was the most out there Of all the stories we're talking about

Once again the dual Tattoo rhapsody The Twins the Village Bride The Night Jedi Toby won The Elder Lapa nocho And Akikari So I'm not gonna say

That this one was the best one But I think the one that made me think I'm like Oh that would have just been an interesting movie is Toby one, is the fact that, like, can a droid use the force? Is a droid alive? Is a droid, can a droid become a Jedi?

And that, it reminded me almost of, like, it was like a very Astro Boy feel, a very Pinocchio story of, like, Astro Boy is one of the first anime. Very, very influential. And it's cool seeing like, oh, like this little droid wants to use the force. And the whole time, I'm like,

if he doesn't get to use the force, this is going to break my little heart. Because it's the only thing he wants. It's almost, it's his I want to be human story. Yeah, it's a Pinocchio story. Yeah. And that's what I loved about. I was just like, oh, this made me, it made me think about the force in Star Wars in a new way.

And I just love that. Which one for you was the best, most out there story? It was that one. It was that one. It was Toby 1. I think that it pushed me a little bit. It got to me the most. And it kind of took me the furthest away from the story.

Star Wars that I know but kept me inside of the parameters of the heart and the imagination that I crave from the series. I was just really into it. Can I tell you the best moment that I was just like, this is always what I wanted in the movies and they never do it, is in the Ninth Jedi, I thought it was so cool for them to focus for just a little bit on this master, like, sword builder, like, lightsaber building. Love that, because we hardly ever see that. We never see the Jedi building. Because if you've read like legends, if you read all of this other Star Wars stuff, the journey that so many Jedi go on is finding a Kyber crystal and building your own

lightsaber, yeah. And we never get that. And that's, to me, has always been so interesting because the way someone's lightsaber looks, the color of it says so much about who they are as a Jedi. And I was just like, I always want that more in a story. Like there was even in the return of the Jedi, wasn't there a deleted scene where like Luke, you can see him building his lightsaber that they ended up making a deleted scene. I always thought that's so cool.

Build it, constructed. It's a part of your journey. And then you're going to go. And then you're fighting. Really quick, because I know we got to go. But yo, this is a nerdy question. Everybody has to answer this. If you had a lightsaber,

what color would it be? Interesting. I would have a multicolored lightsaber. Don't do that. I would be Lakers colors. Laker. Like, I would have a, yeah. I don't have a lightsaber and it would be,

I would have the first light saber it would be like purple but then there would be like gold rings going up Lakers and LSU colors it would be like gold rings going up of it now is this a single blade or is it like one of the Darth malls

dual bladed? No it's not dual bladed it's not it's like a it's a fused chiber crystal it's a chiber crystal that's a chiber chrystal fuse two chival crystals fused together

and you hit it boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom, boom, boom, boom, yeah, bitch. And it's intimidating because you didn't know I was about to cut you with that fucking Kobe. You know what I mean? But anyway, what about the rest of you guys? Jomi, what would your, what would your lightsaber be?

See, I want to say purple because that would mean like... All black people want to say purple. Right? That would mean I'm a Jedi. But honestly, my favorite color is red. I would be a Sith if I'm being real with you. If they said, listen, we're going to give you the green lightsaber. But like, nah, I need.

purple like no purple all right plus I get forced lightning all right so like you know what I'm saying the Sith is just objectively cooler than the Jedi let's be real for a second you know red sabers bullshit what you're talking about Force lightning is not tight

you know what force lightning yeah force lightning is cool that's full you have to you gotta be in the Jedi you got to show me on the capital steps like the Sith were better than the Jedi I know it's weird yeah I'm saying I'm not saying they're right I'm just saying it's a little cooler you know I don't backtrack Joe me

yeah number one it's cool I also don't want my eyes to turn all red and to go crazy and look all bad. Sith got bad skin. Think about it. It's shrivel testicles. All I'm saying is, all I'm saying is, right? Too evil. It would be a hard, you know what I'm saying?

It's not a cut and dry decision. You know what I'm saying? I'd have to think about it for a second. Do you know why? I wouldn't want to be a Sith. Why? Because of one moment in Revenge of the Sith when they're on Mustafa and Obi-Wans like,

Cruiser lands, Padma's Cruiser lands, right? And Obi-Wan gets, and like, Anakin's there, and then he turns around, he looks at Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan standing up there doing, like, the Superman stance, totally looking like

he just banged the back out of Padman on the cruiser. And then, and then the Sith are so emotional that

Anakin can't see that that that didn't happen he's so turned up and so emotional like they act like little bitches we were in the theater and my boy Gino goes this is so funny everybody laughed my boy Gino sees Obi-Wan doing the stance and he goes oh what so you fucking Obi-Wan now

and every and everybody laughed and everybody laughed and that made the sense whack for me forever. Yo, six Steve, what's your

lightsaber? Okay, so I'm not going to get too deep into my Star Wars D&D character, but I wanted to have two blades,

one for myself, and then one that was somebody that was important to me, who was a Sith, and it was basically green and red Christmas colors.

Interesting. What the hell? Everybody is such a nerd on this show. He's got Steve, he's going to be a, Steve Claus, the Jedi,

man, Steve Claus the Jedi. bringing gifts to all the realms, bro. Steve, you're a sick bastard. Some kind of way that was fucked up. I don't know how. But like some kind of way that has fucked up. I want to be a Jedi and a Sith.

Someone close to me. What are you talking about? He's like someone close to me. I took the life saver from a Sith who was important to me, but I didn't want to give up the blade. It was a whole story. I wonder when Steve started saying that? You got some fan fiction going on,

what's going on? Steve? What's you got going on? Steve? what is this? You know what this made me realize? Steve, I've been rewatching the Sopranos and like I feel like Steve is like Tony

and like every time he likes to sleep with another girl he just drops off a cry of crystal for her like the little diamond just like this for you, babe. Here you go. And by the way, this is the Steve, the story that Steve wrote while everybody else was at prong. That's it. That's what I was doing.

Come on, man. No, don't do it like that. Don't do Steve. Like that. All of us could have been president. Not me. Not me. You could have been president.

I wasn't born here. Oh, that's right. You couldn't have been president. Yeah. You couldn't have been president. It's tough. Of your country, maybe. All right.

All right. So you have to join Mal on Friday. Just in charity, we're talking about the anime influences of Star Wars Visions on Mal's show this Friday. I can't tell you guys how much we enjoy. enjoyed Star Wars visions. Okay. This is from a group of guys that it's hard to get them to agree on everything.

Well done. Well done by Disney. Disney can also do something else. Recognize, empower, and enrich creators. We love you guys. And we're counting on you guys to do the right thing here. Programming reminders. Friday, once again, join Mal for a deep dive back into what if.

Talked about that. Justin Charity and Micropetus of Sound Only will be there. Monday, movie Mondays, House and Midnight, Collab to talk about Venom, let there be carnage. And you have to join us next Wednesday for the what if finale.

The what if finale is next Wednesday. We're already here. The Midnight Boys, all four of us, will recast the 2012 OG Avengers movie. Make sure that you follow us. Ring Reverse is on Facebook, IG, and Twitter.

Shout out to Facebook. Love you guys. Join and send us questions. ideas and thoughts. Our producer is the amazing Sikh Steve Almond. Our social producer is Jomi Adiron. Hashtag save Jomi on socials.

I don't want to see you guys tweet me from the midnight universe without hashtagging save Jomi. We've got to say this point. Additional production by Al Juna Ramgapal. And of course, better when he's not seen or heard. Producer TD. Charles, take us out.

Star Wars Visions was tight. Talking about Venom, boy, can't I wait. But I just heard Steve talk about some lightsabers. Girls, can you get this man a date? Love you, Steve. I got to come at you, Van, really quick. What's wrong? You posed a question on Twitter,

and I'm going to come after Steve, where you said one has to go, and it was Empire Strikes Back, The Matrix, The Dark Knight, and Avengers Endgame. Right. And you listed three of the greatest movies of all time, and then Avengers Endgame. I want to know where is this coming from.

I saw Steve, Sixth Steve said the Matrix is out of here. Like what the fuck? Like what is happening to the Midnight Boys? I'll tell you why I put it in game. If you ask people which movie is better, out of Infinity War and in-game, 95% of people will say Infinity War is better than Endgame. You mean Endgame is better than Infinity War?

No, people think that Infinity War is better. I was just like, oh, if you want to put Infinity War in here, like I see it. But let me tell you why I didn't put Infinity War. If you tell people which movie they can't live without, most of those same people are going to say Ingame. because the stakes were bigger in any game and also because the highs in endgame

are the highest highs in MCU history. So, yeah, they are. Yeah, I mean, like, no, he's right. I can't get rid of the endgame. Like, you can't, you can't. You just can't do that. The highest, the highs in endgame are the highest highs in the whole MCU.

Like cap grabbing the hammer, Avengers Asimble, Tony Snap, all of those things. Like, those are the highest. highs in the biggest moments. I was just confused where I was just like, Empire Strikes Back, Matrix, the Dark Night. And then you're just like end game. And I was like, whoa, whoa, what is, what is happening? What is with this chaos? A lot of people were saying, get the Matrix out of here. And I just want to say, we need to get that Matrix slander out of here. I like, I hold the Matrix

too close to my heart for y'all to just be like, nah, end game is better. There's no way. In Sixth, Steve, I saw what you said. I amended this and I want to formally apologize to myself and everybody out there that was a that was a boneheaded decision of my of mine men like to think that i could get rid of the matrix it's absolutely screen shots don't we saw the tweet yeah yeah we saw the movie first of all me joey joey me dry snitching in light mode like wait viz answer the question which one would you get out of here answer the question this is going to post credits i wouldn't do i wouldn't do any of them i'm not doing it no you pick one pick one if Don't be a coward.

If I, if I have to, no, no, if I have to pick one, I'm not going to lie. It's the dark night. If I have to pick, if I have to pick one, it's the dark night. I'm going to be honest with you. Wow. If I have to pick one is the dark night, yeah. End game can get out of year. Jomey, before we get back to everything.

Oh, we said, oh, we said to make this shoot a crib easy with a full severance package. See, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no.

You were outside when the Matrix happened. The Matrix had people out here really thinking that we are living in a program. Like, I was there. That shit changed the world. Like, everything that we know is no longer fabulous. It's a perfect movie. It's a perfect movie. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

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