The Ringer-Verse - What You Need to Know Before Beginning HBO's ‘The Last of Us’

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

When you’re lost in the darkness, look for this pod. Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin answer 10 questions about what you need to know before watching HBO’s adaptation of Naughty Dog’s ‘The Last of Us’ (02:02). In their mostly spoiler-free conversation, they discuss what makes this video game so special and significant that it's being adapted, if you need to play the game before watching the show, the perfect casting of Joel and Ellie, as well as why a TV show is a better adaptation choice for the game over a movie. Then they answer the biggest question of all: Will this end the curse of bad video game adaptations? Host: Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin Associate Producer: Jessie Lopez Additional Productional Support: Arjuna Ramgopal  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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ignite your taste, start your engine, shift your flavor to high gear with new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can, and get after it. And welcome into the Ringerverse, the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor for the ringer, and this is the latest Winberg and Associates edition of podcast. My associate today is a colleague I would have no trouble trusting to get a stalker or a clicker or a bloater off my back, a man whose aim is true and whose brain is fungus-free. Ringer, associate staff writer, Daniel Chin, Daniel, hello, and thank you for playing

either the Ellie to my Joel or the Joel to my Ellie for the purposes of this podcast. Thanks for having me, Ben. I'm excited for this one. Compared to you, I'm old and grizzled, and I'm also unshven and a dad. So I guess that must make me, Joel. I guess that makes me, yeah. If it's got to be one of us.

I'll take it. I'll take it. I think you got the best of that, but can't go wrong either way. So whoever our character equivalents are, we're here to get you hyped and prepped for the premiere of The Last of Us, the much anticipated and glowingly reviewed adaptation

of the classic, Nottie Dog PlayStation game, which debuts on HBO this Sunday. Coming soon. So first things first, if you have not played The Last of Us and you don't want to be spoiled about the game or the series, that's okay. It is safe to keep listening because Daniel and I have played The Last of Us, but this pod is intended to be accessible to everyone. So don't touch that dial.

If you haven't played the game and you want to get a feel for what the fuss is about, this pod is for you, if you have played the game, and you just want to hear what we think about the potential for this series or adapting video games in general or adapting The Last of Us specifically, this pod is for you too. And at the end of the episode, we will possibly stray into some light spoiler territory, sort of like Mal and Joanna's book reader segments during House of the Dragon. But we will warn you if and when that happens. So don't worry. We are doing this primer pod because from all appearances, this series is, going to be a big deal. I'm getting that feeling. As soon as the review embargo expired on Tuesday,

there was just an immediate bombardment of rave reviews, both from fans of the games and from people who are new to the franchise. So as we speak, the scores are sitting at 97 on Rotten Tomatoes and 82 on Metacritic, just to put that into perspective, which I may not need to do. Those are high numbers. You all know that higher is better. But that's the same range as, say, severance or interview with the vampire or the most recent seasons of for all mankind or industry or White Lotus. So critics are really loving this thing, which is a great relief. We're not accustomed to seeing numbers that high for video game adaptations. This is just breaking the scale so far. So couple that with the prestige of the HBO Sunday night

slot, the scarcity of other huge shows on major networks and streaming services between now and I guess March 1st when Pedro Pascal's other show about a middle-aged man taking care of a kid and learning to love again comes back. There's also just the enduring appeal of post-apocalyptic settings and last but far from least the affection that millions of fans, including us, feel for this game and its characters. And The Last of Us is just sort of set up to own the next month or two because we are in a window without live-action Star Wars or Marvel. or Star Trek or insert other massive sci-fi fantasy franchise here. Even the Taylor Sheridan verse is on a bit of a break.

So smart timing on HBO's part and also fortunate for us because we do need TV to talk about in January 2. So Daniel, how is your height meter registering for this series compared to the heavy hitters coming later this series? This is like, hey, happy to have this to tide me over until Ant-Man and Mando and Secret Invasion, etc. Or does this rank right up there with those things for you? It actually ranks really high for me because I was actually very late to this video game franchise. Like I didn't own a PS3 and I got a PS4 very late as well. So by the time that I actually played this game for the first time,

there had already been a remaster for years. And I played the remastered version, but immediately fell in love with it. And then just, you know, seeing the cast come together, seeing the people that were going to be involved in the show and the fact that it was going to be, you know, like getting that Sunday night slot, as you were talking about on HBO, like, I thought it was just the perfect recipe for success. And like, I'm really excited for this series. Me too. I'm right there with you. And yeah, that Sunday night slot, you know they mean business. Right. If this is the flagship show, if they're sticking it there, that is a pretty good

indicator of quality, historically speaking. So we are not alone here in being hyped for this show. So everyone's favorite ring or verse regulars will be covering the series accordingly, though primarily not on the ringerverse feed, which makes this a good time to give you some programming notes. So I will do that. Friday's House of Our episode, first and foremost, will be a 2023 hype draft. I will be joining Joe and Mal and the illustrious Sean Fennacy for that one to talk about what we're really looking forward to this year in addition to The Last of Us. Now, the plan for Last of Us coverage is as follows. There will be two pods per week on the show. from the Ring ofverse crew, but they'll be appearing on the Prestige TV podcast, not on the Ringiverse feed. So Van and Charles will get their instant takes out on Sunday nights, and on Tuesday afternoons or evenings,

Mal and Joe will do their deep dives. So there will still be regular Midnight Boys and House of Our episodes on the Ringiverse feed. So you're not getting less of them here. You're just getting more of them elsewhere. But this series will be well covered there and on the watch, and who knows where. else. So just to set the scene here, a quick capsule summary of The Last of Us for anyone who,

like HBO, Casey Boyes, has not played a video game since 1982's Smurf Rescue in Gargamel's castle on ColicoVision. That is a true fact about Casey Boyce that I read recently. This series is set in a near future or in the show present day, drastically depopulated United States, which a lot along with the rest of the world, has descended into near anarchy, thanks to the ravages of a mutated fungus that possesses human hosts and essentially turns them into zombies. So the game focuses on the harrowing, I would say, cross-country journey of two playable protagonists. Most of the time you control Joel Miller, a 50-something smuggler who meets and grudgingly attempts to protect Ali Williams, a 14-year-old orphan. And there are some survival horror elements, but it's really an action-adventure game.

So mostly sneaking and stocking and shooting and punching and a little light puzzle-solving and crafting. Lots of looking through drawers for extra ammo, which will probably not be as big a part of the show. I don't know if you're like me, Daniel, but I cannot walk by a box or a cabinet or a drawer in a video game without exploring what's inside, especially in the last of us,

because you're usually down to your last bullet. I'm constantly foraging and crafting, which is not something I like to do typically. Yeah, I'm such a completionist in games, too, where I'm looking for every little comic or node or something. Yes, right. Yeah, there's a lot of great environmental storytelling where you pick up little things about the characters or the world

from things that are just screwed about the environment. So the first game came out on PlayStation 3 in 2013 and was remastered, as Daniel said, for PS4 in 2014, and then remade for PS4. five last year. So this is just the gift that never stops giving and never stops selling. The Last of Us part two, the sequel, came out on PS4 in 2020, and the first and second game combined have sold almost 40 million copies and just are generally regarded as two of the greatest games of their generations. So they're both developed by Noddy Dog, a Sony-owned studio that's also well known for

Crash Bandicoot and Jack and Daxter and Uncharted. And a Last of Us adaptation of some sort has been in the works almost since the first game came out, though the original plan was for it to be a movie with Sam Ramey attached to direct. So that's an interesting alternate history. But that effort fell apart. The rights reverted to Nottie Dogg and then this adaptation developed with HBO. So it's co-created and co-written by Neil Druckman, the writer and co-director of the game, and Craig Mazen, who's probably best known as the creator and Emmy winning writer of HBO's Chernobyl. So the first season, which will cover the entirety of the first game is nine episodes long and stars two familiar faces from Game

of Thrones. Patriot Pascal plays Joel and Bella Ramsey plays Ellie and lots of other little star power scattered throughout the series Nick Offerman shows up, Melanie Lindski, etc. So what we want to do here is just go through 10 questions just to sort of set up what we're getting into, clue everyone into what the Last of Us means to people, talk some specifics, but again, no spoilers. And I'll start with the broadest question of all, which I will direct to you, what would you say makes the Last of Us,

the game, so special and significant? Yeah, I mean, even as you're just going through, like, how it was remastered, remade, sequel, I mean, in the span of 10 years, that's all happened. Like, you know, a remake and a remaster like within, you know, less than 10 years, too, not to mention the expansions, like the comics.

It's just like a full-fledged media franchise now. And I think especially, you know, since I didn't play it at the time in 2013, but I can only imagine, like, it has such a cinematic feel to it, where immediately you're diving in, you feel like you're playing a TV show or a movie. And, like, it's when I played the remaster, the whole time, I just was thinking about how this really, really could work as an adaptation, as a TV show, especially. Yeah, it's kind of a cop-out, but it's the complete package more so than any single element.

I wouldn't say it's the gameplay primarily, especially in the original game. And, I mean, don't get me wrong, the gameplay is good. It's tense. It's challenging. The AI is often pretty impressive. But I think it goes beyond that. It's the graphics. It's the environments.

It's the incredible attention to detail, maybe more than anything. And the graphics, they looked incredible in 2013, and they have continued to get better with each new version. Even the original still holds up pretty well. So it's a little drab and green-brownish, as a lot of games from that era were. But really, it's just that kind of attention to detail, the animation, which I think came at a great cost to the sleep schedules and personal lives and possibly health of Noddy Dog developers. But it's just extraordinarily well-written and well-acted and well-animated. I mean, you just, you feel like you're really there with these people. you feel for these two characters that you're controlling that you're spending the entire game with.

And they feel like full-fledged personalities. And it's just, it's a testament really to the writing and the plotting. Like the actual premise, the scenario is not necessarily mind-blowing, but every little element of it works so well with everything else that, especially at the time when, you know, I think the game has been so influential that a lot of other games have kind of kind of stepped up their games, right? Story-wise and narratively and have taken a page out of The Last of Us book. But back then, almost 10 years ago, it was even more, I think, out of step with sort of the status quo, the state of the art, and clearly borrowed quite a bit from other media,

which I guess takes us to the second question, which is, is the Last of Us's story great for a video game by video game standards? and I say that with love as a lifelong gamer? Or is it just great, period, because that's about to be put to the test, right? Because this is going to be more or less the same story in an entirely different medium where maybe we have seen more stories of this kind of caliber. So do you think it will still hold up and stand out to the same degree? Yeah, I mean, I do think that whether or not the premise in itself,

just being an infection story that we've seen many variations of over. time, whether through video game or through movie, it really is just the story on top of the characters' relationships and the way that they're able to build the characters. And with the video game like this, you have so much time just played in the world where you're, like you're saying, scavenging. But there's just great dialogue just happening all the while and all the little details that you can pick up in it. And it's going to be interesting to see how that really translates to the screen, but there is just such a beautiful foundation for them to, build on and then really just expand in ways that you're going to be unique to screen as well.

Right. Yeah, there's a story, the origin story, the original pitch for this was that back in 2004, when Druckman was still in school, there was a guest judging sort of situation where George Romero was going to be a guest judge at Carnegie Mellon and you had to pitch a zombie story. And so Druckman pitched basically the bones of what would become the Last of Us. And Romero was not particularly impressed. And I can see why, because if I were just to lay out the basics, it doesn't sound all that unusual or extraordinary, you know, just an older character, teams up with younger character, becomes protective of that character. You can find similar shows with these very actors involved. I mean, you don't have to look that far. And just the post-apocalyptic setting,

and maybe this is a different kind of zombie than we are used to seeing, but essentially the same idea. So how many shows of that genre, of that nature have we seen, whether it's ones that directly influenced the game, like The Road, or Children of Men, or in recent years The Walking Dead, or Sweettooth, or Station 11, or you could just go on and on and on. And yet, it transcends, I think, all the conventions of that genre, even though you could list any number of games or comics or movies or shows that tread on some of the same territory. I think even if we're not grading on a curve here

for a video game or a video game of 10 years ago, I think there's still something special here. And I guess it really comes back to Joel and Ellie, right? And either, both of them. But I think Ellie especially is one of the just best drawn and most beloved game characters ever, really, and deservedly so. Yeah, totally. I mean, like you're saying, too,

like at its core, it really is just a classic, you know, lone wolf and Cubs story. But the way in which it all comes together in the game and the way that it kind of has its own spin on a lot of tropes and things that we're familiar with already, it's just, it comes through in a really nice way that made a really, really unique video game experience. And I'm, like, really excited to see how that is,

expands it on a TV show with a really talented team behind it. Yeah, and Mason has been talking a very big, game in all of the few pieces. He has said that the game has an open and shut case for the greatest story that has ever been told in video games. And in a separate piece, he said it's the best video game story ever, not by a little, but by a lot. So he's not really taking the pressure off himself, and Druckman here. He's piling it on to live up to that legacy as he sees it. I don't know that I would go quite that far. I think that there are a lot of games with great stories. And I think there are multiple ways that you can tell a great video game story.

And this is sort of in the cinematic genre, you know, one of the criticisms initially, not that there were many criticisms, but people said, well, this is a great movie story or a great TV story that's kind of grafted onto a game. It's not really using the interactivity of the medium to make the most of this story. And I think there's some truth to that. It's clearly taking cues from a lot of other. movies and shows and books, etc. It's heavily influenced by a lot of those things. But I think it learned those lessons well, and it applied them well, and it starts in a pretty gut-wrenching way, and it never really relents.

But one of the things I appreciated about it is that it's dark, but it's not unrelentingly dark. It's not necessarily a downer that's just going to leave you depressed after you watch this. There are a lot of moments in the game of levity. and love and beauty and hope, I would say some of the most memorable moments. So, yeah, there is a lot of bashing people's brains in, some of whom are infected and some of whom are not.

And there's definitely a lot of moments. Like, it's a game that makes you feel the consequences of violence and tries to actually apply some stakes to that more than the typical game where it's just kind of cannon fodder and henchmen you don't really pay much attention to. but there is an undercurrent, I think, of optimism that is often absent, even from something like, say, The Walking Dead, I think, which at times at least was just so bleak that it started to turn people off. I guess you could say maybe that applies to the Last of Us part too, but I would say in the first game, at least, it doesn't really get to that level where I would say this is a tough watch. It's a tough hang. like you should have a pretty good time probably playing this game or we're watching this adaptation.

Yeah, I feel like there'll be a lot of parallels in that sense with like Station 11. Yeah. I loved so much. Yeah. In such a, you know, a sad, like dark subject, but just like finding like the hope and the beauty and how like life must go on. Right. Right. You know, like as the fireflies, like, you know, it's the finding the light and the darkness, you know.

Yeah. So the pod must go on to question three, which is if you haven't. played The Last of Us. How much pressure should you feel to play the game before watching, or to put it a different way, if someone has not played the game, but do you think that they should be concerned? Am I going to be missing out here? Should I wait to watch until I play? If you're a gamer, I imagine, you've probably played already. It's hard to avoid this game in this series, but if you haven't, if you've been considering dabbling as the hype builds up for this series, what would you recommend or would you reassure people that it's okay to go on?

It's a really interesting question. I'm very curious what you're going to say as well, but for me, at least, I feel like you really shouldn't feel any pressure at all because this story is so good that if you just go in here not knowing what to expect, there's so many twists and turns in it that are just going to be really satisfying, not knowing what's going to happen. But at the same time, like if you are somebody that loves all the little Easter eggs, all the little nods, all the little fan service. Like, I'm sure there's going to be tons of things that only the gamers that play this will fully appreciate.

But from the story standpoint, it might be nice to go on fresh. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I'm kind of with you. As with any adaptation, I'm sure that there will be things that the players will pick up on that others might not. But there might also be some benefits to just coming in cold and having the element of surprise, right?

So I would say almost no pressure, really. I mean, I'd recommend that anyone who is even vague. interested in the game, check it out because it's a great game and you'll have a nice time. But I think if you're new to the series entirely and you think you might want to try both, you might actually be better served by watching the show first and playing the game second, which often I would say I would go the other direction and want to read the original before experiencing the adaptation or play it or watch it or whatever it is. But in this case, I would say the other way around might actually be better because if you play

the game first, then you'll know most of the main beats of the story, and that's what the show is, right? Whereas if you watch the show first, you'll know most of the main beats of the story, but you won't have been exposed to the gameplay at all. And then there's a whole other element to the experience that really won't be spoiled for you or negatively affected in any way, I think, by having watched the series first. So that's actually the sequence I would probably recommend, But I would say that if anyone is interested in checking it out and just wants to be a completionist or get up to speed, and if you're not a big gamer and you don't want to take the plunge with The Last of Us, which is, you know, a challenging game and mechanically fairly complex, it would not be necessarily the easiest game to start with, I suppose, if you've never played something before. But there's a great series, which I actually rewatch this week just to prep for this pod and the show.

There's a guy named Grant Vogel, I sent this to you, Daniel, too, who in 2015, just a couple of years after the first game came out, created what he called a cinematic playthrough of The Last of Us. And basically, he turned off the heads-up display. So all of the on-screen icons and indicators that this is a video game, you know, which is pretty minimal in The Last of Us to begin with. But ammo counts and what weapon you're using and that sort of thing took that off the screen, just tried to find. the most cinematic camera angles possible, and also spent hours, hundreds of hours, just playing and replaying and then editing and re-editing so that he got it down to sort of a seamless play-through, where he cut out a lot of the repetitive combat and the foraging that we were talking about and just boiled it down to the most intense parts like that

that are not really actively involved in the story, but then all the cutscenes, all the moments where you're learning about the world and Joel and Ellie. And I watched it. It's a seven-episode series, and it's almost five hours long. And I was just riveted, even knowing, even having played it, of course, years ago, not all of it was fresh in my mind. But as you were saying, when you go back and you either watch a play-through or you play

it yourself, you're struck by, you know, I don't want to say like, oh, this is a give-me, this is a lay-up, like, how could this not be a successful TV show? but the seeds are all there, you know? It's just kind of trimming out this and that, leaving the essential elements like the bones of a really successful Sunday night HBO series are clearly there. You know, they're all there. And you just have to port them over into this different medium,

which easier said than done. And there's a difficulty to making any kind of art. And there's a ton of expense and work that went into the show. But unlike a lot of games, we're going to talk about adaptations in general in a second, but I think there was less that needed to be done to turn this into a serviceable prestige TV drama than would be the case with a lot of games. It's all there, you know, even back in the 2013 original. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you brought up this series, too, because I was watching some of the

just to prep for this. And like, what I was most impressed by with the series that he created was like how each episode will have that cinematic, like, title sequence. But, done in a way where it really feels like a TV show, like cutting it at the right, editing it the right way where like it just fits so seamlessly. Yeah, it's really well done and so well done, in fact, that Nottie Dogg and Druckman shouted it out at the time and tweeted recommendations,

and Druckman was even like, who needs a movie now that we have this? I mean, tongue in cheek, sort of, but not totally. And he was actually hired, this guy, Grant Vogel was hired by Noddy Dog. Yeah, as a result of making. that and he's actually in the credits for the sequel for The Last of Us Part 2 as a video editor. So he kind of got the call up to the big leagues, got to live his dreams. So yeah, it was well deserved. So check that out.

And I'll also say that if you're at all concerned that this show might be too scary for you, if you're someone who doesn't like body horror or survival horror, checking out those videos might be a good way to gauge whether you can tolerate it or not. But I would reassure you on that score because I am an admitted coward when it comes to games and movies and shows. I don't mind blood or gore, but creepy, scary stuff. I do not have that high a tolerance. I am just a scarity cat. And I had no issues playing The Last of Us, really. At most, I was mildly unsettled. And I think it's creepier to play than to watch because you just feel more immersed in the environment when you're playing. I am looking forward to seeing how the show depicts all of the

varieties of infected and how authentic and convincing they are. But aside from an intense scene here, or there, or the odd jump scare, do not be alarmed. Playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus.

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in a video game adaptation specifically? Because this can be a pretty divisive question, do we try to reproduce the game as closely as we can? or do we try to put our own spin on it and provide something fresh so that people are not just seeing the same thing that they've seen already if they played the game? Yeah, I mean, it's just such a tough line to balance, like not just for a video game adaptation,

but for really any adaptation for a popular series. And I think it's just, it is such a tough line to balance where it is such a case-by-case thing for me. Like, I was thinking about this a lot for a piece on Sandman that I wrote over the past summer. It's just like, it's different for every medium that it's translating to as well, like from a comic book to a TV show, from a comic book to a movie. And it's been a really tough thing, obviously, for people to figure out with video games.

And I mean, it's just like, we'll get to talking about more video game adaptations in a bit, too. But a lot of games just like that have been adapted are like, you know, what was that? the rampage, like something where I'm just like, I don't know why they thought this was a good idea to make this into something, because it's just like a very, you know, elemental idea in terms of a game, but just like building a story on top of that. But for this, it's just like there's such a good story already that you, like you said,

you know, you don't really have to do too much with it. But at the same time, like you're saying as well, like if you're just going to recreate it the way it is, like there has to be something more. So it's, it's definitely, a tough line of balance. Yeah, I mean, there's something to be said. As I said, you can go back and watch that YouTube series and get a pretty good handle on what the game is like to play and maybe like the series is to watch, but not everyone is going to go watch a YouTube series with the 2014 era graphics, right? That's a tough sell for some people and obviously investing 15 hours in a video game

isn't even tougher sell. So you're reaching a broader audience or at least a different audience. And there's some value in just being able to expose that audience to something that they might not see otherwise. The question, I think, is always, is this for the fans of the game? Or is it not really for the fans of the game? Because they have the game already. So it's really for people who have not played the game and maybe don't have interest in playing the game, but would have interest in some elements of the game and that story. And fans, I think, understandably feel some possessiveness and an investment, right? They want to see people do justice to these stories. I think where that gets taken too far, and look, fans have had good reason

to complain about a lot of video game adaptations, as we will talk about in a second. But I think that strain of fandom that's just, you can't change anything, this is a sacred text. You know, it's just like, relax. Like, first of all, I mean, I know it's not surprising that fans would sometimes take things too seriously. And often it comes from a place of love and just wanting to protect this IP that they care about. And I certainly understand that and I feel that myself sometimes. But it has to evolve in some way. Or at least it doesn't have that much to offer you or me or other people who play the game. I mean, of course, there's something to be said just for seeing something in live action, right? And to see Pedro Pascal and Belle Ramsey portray these characters

instead of very well-animated and motion-captured polygons, right? And to have just real practical effects at a real world and a set, I mean, it's a different experience, although less and less different over time as video game graphics improve with each generation, right? But I want to see something different. Now, can that be taken too far? Yeah, if you change things to such a degree

that there's just no longer anything recognizable about what you liked about the original, which has happened many times where it's an adaptation in name only, but it has almost nothing in common with the thing that you fell in love with. Sure, that is taken too far. But if it's an issue of, let's say,

breaking the canon, I'm fine with that. You know, I'm okay with, let's say, having two different timelines. I mean, this became a huge issue with the Halo show last year, right? Which came about because of some comments, some quotes that were maybe slightly taken out of context about how familiar the writers and creators were with the established canon.

But in theory, I'm okay with changing things and providing a different look because the game is still there for me. I can go back to that anytime. They're not patching things that I loved out of the game. So in theory, I'm fine with changing things, but with a project like The Last of Us, which works so well, there's also an element of why mess with success like this story is so meaningful and it works so well that if you changed it that much, you would probably only be hurting it.

It's like when Druckman was working on the prospective movie with a previous producing partner, they wanted him to make it bigger and sexier and more like World War Z. And he was like, no, that's not the story. Whatever the equivalent is of Master Chief taking off his helmet and taking off everything else in the Halo show, perhaps that's taking it too far.

This is not the way. And fortunately, it sounds like HBO didn't demand that they do that. just hands off, you guys got this. I would just want to preserve some flexibility and some openness to, hey, that doesn't have to be the only definitive version of that thing. And time has passed, and this is a different medium, and there are different ways to portray these things. So I would like to see some evolution, certainly.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it just comes down to having respect for the source material and the fan base as well. And that goes both ways in that, you know, you are staying capable, but also just understanding that the source material, is what it is, and you have to be adding something new to it. Right. And just like, you know, it can't be a one-to-one translation, and there's always going to be something unique to the medium

that it's being ported to because otherwise, you know, why are we really doing it? Yeah. And so one of the big changes, of course, as I was just alluding to, we have human actors. We have flesh and blood people playing these beloved video game characters. So how do you feel about the casting of Pedro Pascala as Joel and Bell Ramsey as L.A. or, frankly, anyone other than, Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson as these characters.

Can you adjust to an entirely different portrayal? And if you can, do you think these are the right people to do it? I think it's perfect casting. We're talking about how you could see some similarities between the stories and others pretty quickly. I mean, like Pedro Pascal coming back here while still being the Mandalorian with baby Groger. It's as easy of a parallel to see as possible. But I think it's going to be nice to also see him without a helmet on all the time. You know.

Yeah, this is not the way. Yeah. I mean, he's so awesome. But then also for Bella Ramsey, like, she was such a scene stealer in Game of Thrones. And like, that's as good as, like, as convincing of an audition for Elis you could possibly get with her performance as Leon Amormon. Yeah, I don't envy either of them, really, or at least I wouldn't have when it started. Maybe the pressure's off now that the reviews are so good. And no one is tarring and feathering them or burning them in effigy.

But there had to be a ton of pressure. And from what I've read, there was that there was reluctance. They know how much these characters mean to people. And so to take on that responsibility, there's a weight to that. And it sounds like they actually bonded over that shared pressure that they were subjected to. So this series, it's just in general, it's like the HBO All-Stars. It's like people from all sorts of HBO series familiar faces popping up here. And yeah, I mean, we're going to get overlapping Mando and The Last of Us by the time the season runs.

out. And there will be some similarities, certainly. I mean, the Pascal voice is just so inextricably linked to Dinharn in my mind at this point that there was a bit of a double take. But as you said, no helmet. So completely different. And I think it's great casting. Like, it's just, it's a tough act to follow because the original actors who portrayed these characters, not only did they do it so well, but they actually imbued a lot of those characters' traits. You know, Ashley Johnson had a hand in shaping Ellie and making her more capable and courageous. And so I'm sure they feel some ownership over those characters too. And so it's a little jarring, but I think that these are the right people to do it.

I have the utmost faith in them to put their own spin on these characters that will be satisfying too. And obviously, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey will be Joel and Ellie to people who never played the games, right? they will just be their first introduction to those characters, and I have the utmost confidence in them to handle that. And I think the only issue that I have or the only concern, Neil Druckman once said you can connect with a character on a different level when you're playing as them that you can't in a passive medium like a film or a book. That's obviously not always true.

You can connect really deeply to characters in scripted more passive experiences. but there is something, I think there is a bond that kind of comes from spending 15 hours with those characters. It's just sort of, you know, your Joel, your Ellie, they're your avatar,

you're controlling them, you feel as if it's almost an out-of-body experience that when they are in jeopardy, you are in jeopardy. They're just an extension of yourself and some of the intense situations that you find yourself in when you're playing The Last of Us.

I think that does kind of create a bond that I'm not sure can be mirrored perfectly in a TV adaptation. There's a degree of attachment there, I think, that comes from the interactivity that might be tough to mirror. I think that that has something to do with why these characters mean so much to so many people. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point. And just to go back to our previous question about, you know, whether you're not, you should play the game before it, like, I think that is something that makes the game so memorable and so unique and just like these extremely, you know, like in any zombie game, you know, it's just like the feeling of terror that you have. Right. When you have like the clicker in the background,

you can hear this clicking noise, you know, it's like, it's going to be really cool to see that in a series too, but when you're actually like, you know, I might, I might die. I have to, I might go however far back I am I saved in order to keep going forward, you know, it's like, it's something that makes it such a different experience that won't be able to be captured. Yeah, right. It's, you're like, it's a trial by fire. I mean, you're in this together. At least it feels like that at the time. And I think along those lines,

Bella Ramsey, when she auditioned, she was asked whether she had played the game. And she said no. And they told her, good, don't. They actually told her that she shouldn't play the game, at least at that stage, I guess because, A, they probably didn't want to add to the pressure

and B, maybe they didn't want her to be self-conscious and thinking of how the character was portrayed before and doing just the Ashley Jenner. Johnson imitation, right? She said ultimately she did at least watch some of the game, which it would be really hard not to, I think, if you're in that position. But again, that I think has some bearing on, do I have to play this before I watch it? I don't think you do. I don't think even the actors who were in it necessarily did. And again, like we're learning about the outbreak in this world along with the characters. So it's not like there's a lot of existing lore and mythology that you need

to know before the story starts. All right. So we've touched on some of this. but based on nothing except the source material and the creators and the actors involved and the format and the network, et cetera. So before we got the review scores, what was your level of confidence in this series avoiding the fate of the dozens of disappointing adaptations of video games dating back decades?

I think my confidence level was really high and almost maybe too high. Like my expectations for this series have been really high all along. And I think, you know, big part of it is obviously, is how good the story is for The Last of Us, the cast, it being on HBO, but also with Craig Mason and Chernobyl, I thought that was a really interesting, a really good choice to kind of

be ahead of this, and also just making sure that they have Neil Druckman involved as well. Exactly. It's just a perfect balance of having people that, you know, created this game, but also can bring something new to it. Yeah. This project, I think, first and foremost, it's just so well chosen. It's so well suited to this for all the reasons that we've covered. And that's been one of the biggest mistakes, I think, has not just been the process of adapting video games, but choosing which video games to adapt.

Because often it's the ones with the biggest names, and by extension, the studios hope the biggest built-in audiences. But the big-name games often tend to be the ones who've been around forever, right, who date back to the formative years of gaming. And at that time, storytelling was less developed, less prioritized. So there's only so much to work with, right? they weren't really ripe for adaptations. It's not to say that you couldn't create a fulfilling adaptation based on inspired by one of those games, but you'd have to supply a lot of the significance yourself. It's not there imbued into the text the way that it is with The Last of Us.

And just in video games, it general, like gameplay can carry the load so that you don't always have to have a great standalone story. It can just be a supplement, which it can't really when you're talking about a non-interactive medium. So I think there have been a lot of questionable decisions just when it comes to deciding which ones to choose. And really, the last of us, even though the game is almost 10 years old, it's one of the most recent, newest games to have gotten a live-action adaptation. So it comes from a time when stories started to become more of a priority when the technology advanced to the point that you could tell a more mature and sophisticated story. And the people playing and telling those stories were more mature and diverse. And so I think it's just, it's a much more auspicious choice for all those reasons. And it's extremely linear, right, which isn't necessarily a positive or a negative. It's just that its characters can't be

customized. You can't choose the order in which you want to play certain levels. There's only one ending, right? And so when you adapt The Last of Us, you know exactly what you're adapting. It's the story that everyone who played The Last of Us experienced to a great extent. And so I think it's much more straightforward as a screenwriting job than a lot of these games where it's like, okay, this game is popular, but how do I turn that into a movie? As we're saying, with The Last of Us, you could watch the cutscenes strung together and you'd think, okay, that's a movie or that's a TV show as is, almost. Yeah, and I think just to do like the format that they chose, like going with a TV show, like with the story as much as this is and with all the details that there are in such a game that

you could spend, you know, upwards of 15 hours on, you know, more. Like, it's just like, you wouldn't be able to capture that in a movie. And I don't think it really would have, you know, as much as I enjoy Sam Raney's work, like, I don't know how that would have panned out back then. Like, the fact that they've taken time to develop this into the series and, like, really chosen a great cast and team behind it. I think it's, they've just been set up for success in a way that a lot of video game adaptations haven't been in the past.

Yeah. And some games that are kind of consciously cinematic, when you then turn, them back into movies after movies influence them, then it's just like a copy of a copy. It seems sort of like pastiche in a way, but The Last of Us was just so well written that I think it can hold up even on the more competitive storytelling turf of TV. And that's, I think, the other really important thing. I would have been a lot less optimistic if this were a movie as it was originally supposed to be, because I think it's become increasingly clear that TV is just a better fit for a lot

a game adaptations just because it allows for more length and world building and an episodic format that mirrors more of the mission-centric structures of video games. Like, it's a 15-hour game. Even if you cut out a lot of the fighting and the foraging and the crafting and the dying and the not knowing where to go, you'd still have enough material that even James Cameron would be like, that's too much for a movie. So I just, I think that spacing it out into a nine-episode season is really smart. and necessary, honestly,

because Druckman said it was an impossible task when he was trying to script this for a film. And as you said, having Druckman involved is just huge because so often the people who are adapting these projects don't know them, don't love them, aren't even familiar with them, right? And so here you have the person who was just intimately and integrally involved in the game is similarly involved in the show, and Mason is a hardcore, long-time gamer and fan of the,

Last of Us, too. And you have the naughty dog art department is involved and the composer from the game is involved. There's just a lot of shared DNA and the people who know this work the most intimately are the ones who are putting this on the screen here. So I think that is just really crucial. Like as you said, there's just a lot of love, I think, that has gone into this adaptation and that shows. And it's, I think, faithful, but not to a fault, which we will touch on at the very end here. So, One more question, just given the critical acclaim that the series has received so far, you know, if the popular appeal follows that starting on Sunday, is that enough to say that the so-called cursive video game adaptations is officially lifted, or is the Last of Us not enough to undo the stain of decades of crap? Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're saying right there. I don't think it's enough to undo it. I mean, it's just like there's been so many bad ones over the years.

but it's also, I mean, like, and like one good adaptation isn't going to erase all of that. But like, it does show that it's possible, like, as we were just talking about with the previous question, like, when you make these choices for the people that are, that you're entrusting to create this thing and adapt to something that's so cherished by so many fans. But it's also just, again, so unique with this game. It's just how cinematic it was built from the start. Like, that isn't a lot of the video game adaptations that have that have been made at this point. Like, again, going back to. movies like Rampage or something like Sonic, where it's like, it's such a classic game that you know

and you're going to make money off of it. But in terms of the story, you're pretty much going from scratch, other than very foundational roots of what you get from the video game. And there's been so many like that. Like, there's been so many Mortal Kombat movies, you know? Yeah, there's been great progress just over the period that I've been covering game adaptations.

I think I first wrote about a Last of Us adaptation in 2014, but I think it's important to have one that is just an unqualified huge success. So even if that doesn't fix all of the sins of past adaptations or guarantee that future adaptations will be good, because, again, for all the reasons we've listed, I think The Last of Us is almost singularly well suited to this medium and to this type of adaptation.

So it's not necessarily the case that everyone will look at this and say, oh, that's how you do it. Okay, problem solved. All the video game adaptations will be great from now on. But there has been, I think, a lot of progress. It's just that there was always some way you could kind of qualify the progress or the victory. You know, it was an animated show. It's Castlevania or it's Arcane or it's cyberpunk edge runners, right?

Those are all good shows, good adaptations, but not for everyone, right? And maybe it's a show about games that doesn't directly adapt one. There are a lot of great shows about games and gaming like Mythic Quest or Players or Dead Pixels. Or maybe it's something that's pitched more toward kids, right? like Pokemon Detective Pikachu or the Sonic the Hedgehog movies, or it's a limited release like Werewolves Within, or it's something that did well at the box office, like Uncharted, but really flopped with critics and Natty Dog didn't have nearly as much input

into the creative vision of that movie. Or it's something like The Witcher, which is gaming adjacent, but is technically based on the books, right? So there was always, well, it's close, we're getting there. But if this is just a huge mainstream, prestige and popular success, that's kind of the first just unqualified win. And it's important to have that trailblazer

that could appeal to everyone and maybe make people think if they're not already on this wavelength, oh, maybe there is some value in video game stories if I've not checked these things out before. Yeah, and there's so many great video games that have yet to be adapted to, but have, like, you know, just entered development hell and never escape from it.

So, I mean, maybe this, like again, like you're saying, Like, it's, people aren't going to look at this and just be like from now on all video games. Adaptations are going to be good. But like, I think there's going to be a lot. If this show turns out to be as good as we're hoping and as good as it sounds like it is, there could be a lot for people to take from this and try to apply to so many rich stories from video games. Last question before we wrap up with some very brief light spoily content. Do you see The Last of Us as a single series that runs for two to three seasons? or is this a franchise potentially?

Because I've seen a lot of people say, this is the next big thing for HBO, but there's only so much source material, right? There's two games, there's the left behind. DLC for the first game. Perhaps there may be more on the way at some point, but it's not as if there's some vast existing body of Last of Us work here. It sounds like this is something that the sequel could be tackled in season two,

potentially, or even over a second and third season. I think the sequel is for reasons that I won't specify here a little more challenging to adapt and will be fascinating to see how they do adapt it, but there isn't really a lot of runway beyond that of existing stories. So would you want to see them stretch this somehow, or would you want them to say we will just portray and adapt what already exists? And then we will actually show some restraint and not try to turn this into the Last of Us cinematic universe. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm in a tough and interesting position. to be in for this question because

like I said earlier, like I was really late to the video game franchise and like right now I'm still just playing the second one because I really did love playing the first one so much that I was like, I do this sometimes I feel like with games or TV shows. Like I just like didn't want to like get over

the second one. Yeah, save it. Yeah, exactly. I've been saving it for so long. So I'm really curious to see where the story goes in this game as I play it and see how it could possibly be expanded on. not only just as a TV show, but like in this game, expanding on the first one.

But I do fear, like, if they were to build this into a TV franchise, that it would just go by way of, like, The Walking Dead. You know, I think there are a lot of rich avenues for spinoffs with just how many great characters there are, how many backstories that you could do, and just filling in the timeline gaps. I think there's always, like,

as we see with Star Wars and with something like Andor, like, you know, there's so much, that you can just build out of seemingly nothing in a narrative space where it's like, and like Andor is like so much better than so much of what we've seen from the Star Wars universe and so long.

So I don't know. Like if it's built the right way and with the right people behind it, like it could be a lot more. But I'm curious to see what you say because you've played both games and you've been a lot more familiar with this franchise and me. And I've also watched The Walking Dead

to the bitter end including all the spinoffs. and sequels and everything. I can't quit it. I know. I try not to divulge that publicly, but here I am saying it. It's something I'm not completely proud of. But clearly I have a lot of tolerance

for extending stories beyond where they should go. So I'm not saying I wouldn't watch, but I'm not craving it. If there's ever going to be a property where we draw the line and say, no, we are not going to milk this for all it's worth. We are not going to make prequels and sequels and spinoffs just for the sake of,

feeding the IP machine. I would want it to be the last of us because, again, I don't want the last of us expanded universe because the universe is not really what I'm there for, right? I'm there for the characters and the relationships between these particular characters. And of course, you could develop other characters that I care about. So I never say, never, these are talented storytellers. And if the right idea strikes them, fine. But I don't think it's necessarily suited to stand out in that way. You know, Druckman has said, I think, there's more story to tell referring to the game series. So if there's a Last of Us part three at some point, then sure, give us another season of The Last of Us based on that. But he's also said

we have no plans to tell any stories beyond adapting the games. Obviously, plans can change if the series is super successful. But Mazin said, and it almost sounded like he was thinking of the Walking Dead as well, he said, I don't have any interest in a spinning plates go on forever show. when it becomes a perpetual motion machine, it just can't help but get kind of stupid. Eddings mean everything to me. So will the network executives feel the same way? They tend to like shows that go on forever and have huge audiences.

So I don't know. But I'd kind of like to see it be more in the vein of His Dark Materials, another show that Bella Ramsey was in. I'm sure it will be bigger and more prominent in a mainstream way than His Dark Materials, a show that I like and a book series that I love. but there are three books, at least three books in the main trilogy, and they adapted them, and it's done, right?

And from what I've heard, there are no plans to create new series in that universe. So I'd be totally happy if the Last of Us went the same way. So that's what I'm hoping. Let's just have some restraint here for once, because The Last of Us games, they handle endings well without spoiling anything. But this is where we are going to just briefly,

briefly get into the lightest of spoilers to end this episode. If you want to know nothing, no specifics about the Last of Us game, and by extension, maybe, if those things are also in the show, the Last The Best Show, then you can check out here or fast forward to the very end here. But this will just be a very light section. My question to you is which scenes or set pieces or exchanges from The Last of Us, the first game are you most looking forward to seeing in this season? So, I don't know why. I mean, it's a great scene in the game. that you're playing, but very early on in the game when Joel and Ellie are looking for Bill and Joel gets stuck in one of Bill's traps and he's hanging above, you know, you have to like shoot all the infected that are coming after you as Ellie tries breaking you free. That was, that was just in terms of the gameplay too, as seen that really stuck out with me from playing it that, that I'm looking forward to see if they do that like similarly to that or if that

that even happens. I think, you know, just the finale and the ending of it is just, you know, I won't go into too much details there, but like it's such a great end to it all that I think it's going to be an incredible finale for the TV show. Yes. And then just in general, just to see how the relationship between Ellie and Joel involves

over the course of the show, because it is really one of my favorite parts of the video game. Yeah, I was almost thinking more so than some of the action set pieces or the big climactic decisions at the end. There's a scene where they, finally get the car and you can sort of see the relationship thawing between them. And Ellie's reading a comic book and then a porno mag, right? And they're kind of joking and she's just giving Joel grief. And there's a fondness that you can see developing between these characters.

It's almost like, I mean, they're sitting together in the cards. It's almost like Mando and Grugo in the cockpit of the razor crest. Yeah. Grogu's playing with the little ball from the instrument, right, in the cockpit. And that's what you can kind of see that Mando's really. developing feelings for the little green guy. And it's sort of that same dynamic. So that kind of thing and interplay between them evolving, as you said. And just, you know, when Ellie comes to the four and takes a more prominent role in combat, right, and bails out Joel and saves Joel sometimes, those are big, important moments in the game.

So I'm looking forward to that too. And, yeah, I mean, the finale, if the finale follows the events of the game, and I won't lay them out all here too, just in case anyone, is listening beyond where we inserted our spoiler warning here and doesn't want all the details. But if that finale is half as impactful and just heart-wrenching as the game finale, then I would imagine it's probably going to be

one of the best episodes of TV that we see this year. Yeah, yeah. I'm totally with you on that. All right. Very last. So that was extremely light spoilers for the game. This is even lighter show spoilers. So this is our very last question here.

we have seen some of this series. So some of the critics who reviewed the show have seen all of it, all nine episodes. We have not. You've seen the first one. I've seen the first few. So we just want to share some early impressions, no great specifics or reveals or twists or anything.

But what are your early impressions of the show is the hype justified? I think the hype is justified. I really love the first episode. And I think part of why I loved it so much is because of, you know, this whole conversation they were having in terms of towing that line with faithfulness and having respect to it, but also adding to it.

I think they're doing a really good job with that in the first episode where they're, you know, spending extra time with characters that you don't really spend as much time with in the game early on and just developing relationships, but also just adding more of the emotional depth that they're really, because the game just, I feel like you get really into it really quickly. But this first episode really takes time to get into all the action. I think they do a really good job with it. Yeah, based on what I've seen, the reviews aren't wrong.

You can trust what you've read and the scores that you've seen. It is very faithful. And most of the departures are so minor that I honestly might not have noticed if I hadn't just rewatch that whole video series. So it was very fresh in my mind. And the few significant departures really are worthwhile. I mean, will some people be upset? Yeah, I imagine so because there are some people who would be upset if they deviated to the

slightest extent. But anytime they do it, you can tell that they thought about it, that they weighed all the reasons to do it, and they decided that it was justified. And from what I've seen, I agree thus far. And I think that the show is able to just fill in parts of the picture that we don't get to see as we're playing the game because we're just really locked to Joel and Ellie's perspective. And so we learn a little bit more about the characters in the world around them than we could in the game. And it's really just additive for me. It doesn't detract from any part of the experience. It's just filling in some of the blanks and adding a little extra depth. So I'm excited. I would say my only reservation is that there's a little more exposition just in general about

the outbreak than I needed necessarily. You know, the game just kind of just launches right into it, right? And you sort of figure out what happened along with the characters just as you go and as you glean things from the environment. The show lays things out a little more clearly about how this not break happened and what went wrong. And people who haven't played the game might find that helpful. I found it somewhat extraneous. But again, that's maybe just because it's coming from someone who is already familiar with this universe.

So I don't think it's at all intrusive. It's just something to stood out to me. But I think they're doing a great job of bringing these characters to life and really have done them justice. You know, they've maybe softened them in some ways, but not to the extent that it disturbed me at all. And as many people have pointed out, episode three is special. And I won't say why.

Just something to look forward to. I'm excited. Yeah. It's going to be good. So everyone can be as hyped as they were when this episode started, if not more so. We are giving it our limited endorsement just based on what we've been able to see so far. Limited only because we haven't watched the whole thing, but not limited because we have any reservations. It's really good.

All right. That is game over for us. but our Last of Us coverage is just getting started. So remember to check out the Prestige TV podcast on Sunday to hear Charles and Vans takes on the premiere, followed by Mal and Joe's Deepdive on Tuesday. And of course, you can catch me again before then on Friday's House of Our Hype Draft with Mal and Joe and Sean,

where we will find out how our hype for The Last of Us compares to all the other IP on the way. Thanks to Jesse Lopez for producing this episode. Thank you to Arjuna Remgapal for giving me the mission to escort Daniel today. And thank you, Daniel. I feel like we grew closer as this episode progressed. We were close when it started, but I just, we bonded, I think, during this discussion. Thanks for having me on here, Ben.

And as Ellie said, multiple times in The Last of Us, staring out at the cityscape, it's got its ups and downs, but you can't deny the view. And for the next nine Sundays, I think HBO viewers, will be saying something pretty similar, whether they love The Last of Us already or they're learning to love it now. So enjoy the ride. And remember, it doesn't matter how much you push the envelope. It'll still be stationary. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention.

Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California Milk by Real California Farm Families.