The Ringer-Verse - 'Willow' Episodes 1-2 Reactions

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

The "Jovanna" experience returns with Joanna and Van to discuss the much-anticipated premiere of the Disney+ series 'Willow' (04:23). They also dive into their favorite characters and discuss some of the squandered IP reboots of this year. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Van Lathan Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. into the ringerverse your nexus podcast feed for all things fandom i'm joanna robinson and joining me today on something that our producer steveldman has now dubbed the jovanity project it's van layton junior van how do you feel about that you just want to keep to the jovana experience it's either it's either one for me it's what makes you feel comfortable steve is the architect so i i'm cool with it but jovana jov vanity we're together okay we're already getting to our Matrix Agendas off by calling Steve the Architect.

I see how it is. He's the architect. You and Steve are on your Matrix agendas here at the end of the year. We're not here to talk about the Matrix, though, or anything else other than Willow. It's Willow Wednesday. The long-awaited premiere, two-episode premiere of the Willow television series. Van and I are going to be talking about the first two episodes, how we feel about it as the world's number one Willow fans, Van and I are, of the original.

movie, a 1988 movie. So how did we, with sky high expectations and fears and worries and all that sort of stuff, feel about decades of longing. Yeah, decades. Oh, wistful longing. Whistful longing. How do we feel about the first two episodes? We'll get into all of that.

Quickly first, though, of course, programming reminders. We're not, it's the end of the. year. Okay. We're not going to get too hardcore and sticklery about when some of these episodes are coming out, but I just want to let you know. It's a perfect way to put it, Joe. That the Midnight Boys, PooPew, and House of our working title, we'll be here sometime next week to

break down our best of 2020 on two separate shows. So sort of like in our own distinct styles, we'll be talking about the things we love the most this last year. Speaking of things we loved of the year, I've been getting tagged in a bunch of Spotify wrapped posts on Twitter this morning for people saying, you know, The Ringerverse was their top podcast this year. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate the ballooned inflated ego that I have right now. So, you know, keep the tags coming. We appreciate it. But to be honest, I really appreciate you guys listening. I know that especially House of our episodes are an

investment of your time, given how long they are. And I've enjoyed listening to Midnight Boys myself. So thank you all for listening. Thank you for making our family solvent. Yes. Thanks for keeping. Steve and Jomey employed in Arjuna. And then spoiler warnings.

Okay. So there's a big question mark going into this Willow TV series. Allora Danon, red-headed baby from the first film. Who is she? Where is she? We don't know. Guess what? It's answered

in these first two episodes. We're going to talk about it. So that, for instance, is a spoiler that's on the table, right? So spoilers for the first two episodes, Willow spoilers for the 1888 film. No major spoilers for the franchise as far as I know, but we'll take that as case B. But that's our spoiler warning.

Anything else, Van, that we should say? I don't think so. I think, look, damn it, we're about to talk about it. That's all I'm done with you guys. You guys already know this. Can I do a fan of it? It's happening. You're listening to a podcast about Willow Off Good.

All right. So let's do it. It's dope. We're here to talk about episodes one and two, the Gales and the High Aldwin. They're both directed by Stephen Wolfenden and the first one's written by Jonathan Kasden, who is son of Lawrence Kasden and the creator of this. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just talking with you. Okay, great. I had a fear moment. creator of this whole series. She's like, who is this fucking guy that I'm podcasting with? You don't know Larry Kassan's kid, John? Yeah, John Kaston is the sort of creator

of the creative spearhead of this whole project. The second episode was written by Bob Dolman, who was the original screenwriter of Willow in 1988. So those are the first two screenwriters we have here on these episodes. I'll just say quickly overall reception, generally positive reviews. I talked to a bunch of people last night who went to the premiere.

There was a two-episode premiere in L.A. last night on the big screen and saw it on the big screen. And everyone I know who went to that premiere loved it. So there may be part of singing on the big screen, singing a room full of people. That experience worked for a lot of people. I will say I think I agree most with Dan Feinberg over at The Hollywood Reporter who called it, quote, unquote, good enough. That's what he called Willow. And I was sort of like, yeah, that might be where I am. So, you know, good enough.

We're here only to talk about episodes of one and two. I just want to let you guys know. I've seen up through episode seven. They sent seven screeners to press. I watched all the way through yesterday because we are going to talk about it, but like we're not immediately over the moon, I think it's safe to say for this show. Is that a true assessment, man? I would say so, Joe.

Okay. But we want to talk about what we like. and some things, some areas for improvement. And I will say that I watched all of those episodes, like, we're trying to will it to be as good as I want it to be. And I do think it gets even better and better from the first two episodes. So we're just going to start with the things we liked. So, Van, do you want to hit me with something you liked from the first two episodes of Willow?

So I liked, number one, I liked coming back to the world, seeing all of my friends again. I think that the thing that I most enjoyed was experiencing. expanding the world a little bit because there's one thing about the original Willow movie that obviously as a negative is that it's a very how can I say this it's a very buttoned up story with a knot at the end of it we didn't get very much and we didn't get to me an exploration of some other things and other people it's very much about the core three characters and everybody else kind of just drifts in and out of their world I just liked knowing that Other people have other motivations and other shit going on in Tears Lee. And it was cool just to see that palace or that, that place, that city being lived in and used and all of that stuff. And, you know, I like to watch kids. I like to watch. Whoa, that didn't sound great.

I like to. Steve, don't cut. Never cut that. Keep that forever. Put it on the Southmore, Steve. I like to watch, you know, young adults in fantasy. I think it's always fun when you have a character that's trying to learn how to access their power or taking their first quest or when someone's first venturing outside of their comfort zone,

which is very much what the first Willow movie was about. In that case, Willow is a father, but this was his first time really venturing away. And I think that aspect of it is always something that I enjoy seeing. Yeah, in terms of expanding the world, I would say that like the location, you know, because we're on a quest, this is a road show. Like as soon as we leave to her Sleen after the first episode, like we are on the road this whole time. We're going across the shattering sea to the immemorial city, all that sort of stuff. And we're stopping at places along the way.

We're going through forests. We're going through craggy mountain passes. All that sort of stuff. All that, like, good, good fellowship of the ring shit. And the locations I thought, similar to the first willow, I think, are really beautiful. They shot this in Wales and it just like looks really, really beautiful when they're out on the road, especially coming off of, you know, and or wasn't like this, but coming off a couple shows out of Lucasfilm that were shot entirely in the volume and we're like, okay, maybe I miss what actual grass looks like. and to give us this thing that feels very big as they go through the world,

I think you get that sense of the bigness of the world. Borman, played by Amar Chata Patel, is like my MVP so far. I really love this character. I really love this actor. I think he's just like a shot of charisma, much-needed charisma into the show that is sort of like is a slow start for me in terms of like latching onto some of these characters. and I think that he, like, when he shows up and starts doing his thing, I was like, oh, okay.

And he's got a big fuck off, like, I don't actually know the name of his weapon, but it is incredible. It's like a gigantic, gigantic ax sword thing, big blade. And it's like a big, it's a big fucking aggressive weapon. I love it. Yeah, I loved it. And then the thing, you know, this is sort of like to bleed into sort of what we think they, maybe could have done better, but like, I literally teared up when Warwick showed up

and the original score started playing. But you have to wait until the end of the first episode before that happened. And Van was texting me yesterday, and we both agree that, like, it's a big gamble in a show called Willow to wait an hour before you show me Willow. Van, how do you feel about that?

It was, that did not work for me. I texted you and I'm like, you know, the new characters are, like I said, I'm not, it's fun to introduce some new characters, right? And we do see Sosha very early on. Yes. So we're there, Sosha. So we recognize her from the movie, and we get to see what sort of kingdom that she is raining over.

And it's interesting to see her as the ruler that she hadn't become in the first movie. However, Willow is, it's his thing, right? I mean, I mean, maybe it's not. Maybe there's going to be a passion of the mantle here And we'll be able to, but like it's, I want to see what's going on with Willow And I want to see how his sorcery is going. I want to see how his family is.

I want to see all of those things. And they're starting to show with a bunch of kids who are only tangentially relevant to the movie. And it was a little bit of, a chore for me to dive right into them. Now, I'm going to say something that's going to be slightly controversial. I'm braced. I'm so ready.

I like the Last Jedi. I like it. You know, I love The Last Jedi. I do not like the Last Jedi as much as everybody else does. I like it a lot, but I'm a Star Wars traditionalist. And I feel like they kind of Luke Skywalkered, my Luke Skywalker, Avatar in this by not showing us

what I thought I was going to see in this was Willow at the peak of his powers as some super duper sorcerer. They kind of nerfed him a little bit just like they did just like they did Skywalker and Last Jedi and gave him

some sort of animus with the whole world. He's living underground with the rest of his people and it's not quite what I wanted to see out of Willow. Does that mean that it's bad? No, he comes late though. And when he gets there, I thought it would be something different. I didn't know what I thought,

but I wasn't expecting Willow to have what I think he's going to have, which is another hero's journey to prove that he is the sorcerer that Sosha that he thinks he is and Sorses thinks he is. Yeah, because, well, Sorsha's like you're not, you're the best man I know, but you're not a great sorcerer, is what she says in that flashback that we see in episode two. And yeah, I was a little like, what do you mean, social?

Like, come on, Sorsha. And this whole idea that, like, he got lucky in saving a Laura Dannon, like he used the disappearing pig trick. He didn't use a ton of magic. Like, all of that's true. I don't mind, I wouldn't mind Willow on an arson. if it's an insecure arc about becoming a teacher, because it's one thing to, like, master the thing for yourself.

It's another thing to try to teach it to someone else for Luke to go from an extremely talented Jedi to becoming a Jedi master and trying to have a school for Jedi and then fail his students in that way. You know what I mean? So I think that sort of journey is interesting to me. Just getting a little muddled, I think, in this story, because, yeah, it makes Willow seem like he's not as powerful as maybe we would like him to be. That's a good point.

That's a great point. It's really interesting. In terms of the kids, so we've got Kit, who is our, like, you know, feisty fighter princess. We've got Jade, who is a would-be knight and, like, kids' love interest. We've got Prince Eric, who has been named for Eric RIP from the movie, who has been kidnapped. we've got Borman, the aforementioned Borman, we've got Prince Graydon played by my guy, Tony Revely. And actually, Tony, like, as the show goes on,

Tony Revalori, who I have always really liked, really comes into his own. And then Ellie Bambors. He's already the best one, in my opinion, in the first two episodes. Yeah, he's good. And I like, and I love a fellowship where, like, you have different skill sets.

Like, he's not a skilled fighter, but he, you know, he's like a, a book learning guy. He knows his books. He knows his languages. He knows some, like, some things about magic. I love, though I will say when they get to the barrier and he just starts, like, reading the inscription and the ground is shaking. I was like, maybe read it in your head, great end. Like, if you're speaking in ancient evil tongue and the ground is shaking, maybe stop and just sort of translate in your head. And then Ellie Bamber is here as dove, Dada Dallor Dannon.

She's Allura Danon. A stealthy blonde allure Danon. Anything you want to say about these kids before we roll ahead. This is what I want to say. Yeah. The Allura Danin thing was so telegraphed. Yeah. I mean, as soon as you make it through a magical barrier that no one else can get through,

you know what I mean? She, first of all, she looks like what a Laura Danon would look like growing up. at the eyes and I was like, hmm. It was so telegraphed, right? That it was almost kind of a letdown. Was that like, when that happened, was that like a big moment for you? It was kind of a, were you like, oh shit, Laura Danin? Yeah.

What I will say is I was glad that they just did it in the first episode. Like if they made her, if they made me watch it like for half a season and then we're like, that's a Laura Danin and I would have been really deeply annoyed. But, you know. But the kids are cool. It's, I got to be honest with you, Joe, a lot of pluck. They're very plucky. You know what I mean?

Like, I got to, it's fun. But God damn it, they're plucky. And you guys know how Van feels about pluck. Are you anti-pluck? Are you down on pluck? I don't fuck with pluck. You don't fuck with pluck? Okay.

All right. I don't really fuck with pluck like that. Steve, can you get started? the I don't fuck with merch, thanks so much. What's the best plucky character ever? Give me a character

that's plucky but good. Lord of Rings, no plucky characters. Zero pluck. Ang from Avatar The Last Airbender? Okay, he works, but you guys know

that's kind of, you know, I know how you feel about that. Yeah, he works. But when I think about, I want the people at home to think about the best pluck that exists. Ang is good.

That's a good one. But pluck mostly sucks. You don't fuck with pluck because it sucks. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, these kids that kind of, beyond Borman, they're kind of, they're a little plucky. There's some pluck here. Be honest.

There's a little pluck. I'm here to talk to you for a second about Dempsey Brick, who plays Prince Eric. I don't feel like I'm punching down here because this kid is like perinaturally handsome, so he's going to do fine in life. But first of all, Dempsey Brick, the way he spells his name, genuinely bothers me. Secondly, I think this is either a bad character or a bad performance. Now, he gets kidnapped.

I was grateful when he got kidnapped, and he seems to be off the board for a little while. So, like, that's good. But that was, this is a real problem for me in the first episode. I was like, who is this kid? Why am I supposed to care about him? Like, he's doing this weird, like, is he a lithor? Like, you know, is he fucking around with a Lord Danin? Or is he genuinely emotionally dedicated to her?

Like, what's going on here? I just didn't understand how they were trying to characterize him at all. So that was a wrong to me. And he kind of came off as a one note, Matt Mardigan. You know, Matt Mardigan, if there was nothing else. Because we have to remember, the reason why Matt Mardigan falls in love with Sorsha to the degree at the beginning is because of the love potion. Right. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so Matt Mardigan's thing, well, he was sexy man, but he wasn't around trying to bang everything and stuff. So it kind of like a mutated one-note, Matt Mardigan. He didn't bother me that much. He's just because he wasn't in it that much. He was- Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying.

Like, once he left, I was, like, a little relieved that I didn't have to, like, hang with him for a while. And, like, he might grow on me. But, like, and also, Mad Mardigan, like, part of the whole, Mad Mardigan's whole charm, Like, Borman is no much more of a mad Mardigan than Eric is. And, like, Mad Mardigan is, like, dirty and grimy and scrappy and stuff like that. And I don't want, like, a silk-clad prince. I don't, it's not interesting to me.

Also, the language I have an issue with, like, so there's a bizarrely high ratio of American accents. A Lord Danon is, has an American accent. Kit and Eric have American accents. and I know that Valk Kilmer's doing an American accent in Willow, so that's like fine. But Ellie Bamber, who plays Laura Dan, is British. So I don't know why they're having her use an American accent when she's British. And like, Sorsha's British and Jade is British.

It just, like, it bothered me. And I think the reason why the American accents bothered me so much is that they're using all this weird contemporary language. It is fine if you were a podcaster from Oakland and you say, like, um, well, actually, but if you're Princess Kit of Tirus Lean, I don't want you to talk that way. And this does not change all the way through to episode six or seven, I think. There's a sentence in episode six or seven where someone uses the word dits and mixlezoid in the same sentence. And I'm just here to tell you, that's not how the original Willow was written. Like they're in the world.

You know what I mean? They're in a fantasy world. They're not injecting contemporary, you know, Willow isn't like this spell is totally tubular. You know what I mean? They're not putting 80s language into Willow. So I don't know what Ditsomixlezoid is doing in Willow. But, you know, that's, okay, those are my hotter dicks. Anything else you want to get off putting?

There's just one point to where, once again, this goes back to sort of, this is tangillinilal pluck, where she's feeding everybody because she's a great cook. and she goes, I'm a phenomenal cook. And then he eats it and she goes, she mouths phenomenal. And I was like, that's too cute for fantasy. I get that there's different fantasies. Look, I sound like the old motherfucker in the room. And fuck it, I am.

My back hurts right now. But like that, I'm like, there's something that the show doesn't feel very, it kind of makes the show feel like saved by the bell, the medieval class in a way. It does the show, there's a, the thing that happens with these fantasy stories is as, as like ridiculous as this sounds, they have to feel important.

Things have to feel desperate. Things have to feel like, someone had these, these quests are great. The stakes are great. And there's just a, there's a cavalier sort of temperature about the show that doesn't work for me sometimes.

And I think that's coming across. coming across in some of the language as well. I think I want to skip ahead to something else I want to talk about that goes under this umbrella, which is this idea of like genres being afraid of what they are. And it's a thing that really bothers me. Like when you're doing a high fantasy series like Willow, I want you to not be afraid of being a high fantasy series. And there are ways in which is not, you know, you've got like all the fun, weird place names on the map.

You've got the cool creatures, like all that's not. is going on. But when you do contemporary language and when you do contemporary music, I was telling Stephen Van that there are some like music cues in later episodes that I'm just like, we're putting a punk song over a fight scene. And I'm just sort of like, so I was talking to a friend of mine who really likes the show and she, and she's very smart. And I respect her opinion.

But she was like, what kind of like that is kind of like the Princess Bride angle? I was like, no, the Princess Bride did not do that. They didn't do that in the Knights tale. I was going to say, it's a Knight's Tale, right? Yeah, it's a Knight's Tale. Like, you have Peter Falk and Fred Savage are like doing, talking about the Princess Bride. But once you're in there, Wesley's not saying any, you know, and you're not putting any pop songs or anything like over Princess Bride. However, you've got your, we will fucking rock you playing over a Knight's Tale.

Like that's what's going on there. And I like a Knight's Tale. I do. But that's not Willow. That's not what Willow is. Willow is like an earnest score. and everyone is talking about, there's this thing that Prince Eric,

when he's sort of like wooing a Laura Dannen in the first episode, and she's like, I don't know, I've heard about your reputation. He's like, I'm just not that guy anymore. And I was like, what are you talking about? Why am we saying this? Anyway, so it's like when musicals are afraid to be musicals, I'm like, you're making a musical, don't be afraid.

You are a musical. It's okay. Or I was arguing with our beloved producer, Steve, about this. Like the, who done it, see how they, run that came out this year, that felt like a movie that felt like it was afraid. It felt like it had to make fun of whodunits in order to be a who done it. And I'm like, no, just be the thing that you are, if that makes sense. So I agree.

I think, I think that it, there's a, it starts to make, you start looking at everything else. Like, I watch it. And when I'm, when I'm sort of taken out of that world, I go, they don't look dirty enough. they're not dirty enough at all. They're not dirty. They're not dirty enough. No. No.

I start to look. I'm like, and this is, you guys, you guys, so some people like, man, it's talking about how dirty they are. I'm like, I'm looking at it. It looks too clean. Yeah. They look too dirty. It looked too pretty.

The, the other movie, I keep, like, well, they were on the road. There was mud. McMartigan's teeth were fucked up. Teeth. Yeah, Madamein's teeth. Yeah. Like, everybody was covered in Gook. It was raining.

It was fantasy. It was, you know, and this is a very clean, and some of it, some of it's just aesthetically, I'm just comparing it to old stuff, and I get that, and that's probably not fair to the content I'm watching right now. But it's just taking you out of it a little bit. I'm not sure. Yeah. Because I don't think they're quite committing, like, well, like to it as much as they are. They're trying to make it.

it, I don't know, they're trying to, it's like decaffeinated fantasy a little bit. Decaf fantasy, yeah, I mean, I heard this argument about rings of power a little bit. And I would say like some of the characters, like the Harfoots are pretty grubby and dirty, but some people are like, why, you know, why aren't more of these characters dirty?

Like, because in the original Lord of the Rings, Vigo Mortensen's hands are just like absolutely disgusting and grubby the whole time, because that's just you're on the road. You don't have a shower. You don't have a bath. So I would love for these characters to get a little grubier.

I completely agree. Everything looks too clean. And this is the question we had. I know if you watched any Wheel of Time. But that was an issue I had with Wheel of Time too. Like the costumes were too bright. Everyone was a little too clean. The sets looked a little like too Disneyland to me.

Like this isn't on that level for me in terms of visuals. But like, yeah, I want my fantasy, make fantasy grimy again, I guess. is the... Make it grimy. Make it super grimy. It also is like it... It almost doesn't... Like, when you're watching Game of Thrones

and, like, they're together, you're thinking, these people stink. They stink. They look, they're stinky. They're having stinky sex. You know, like, it feels... The fur smells bad. The fur smells bad.

They've been traveling. It smell like butt. You know what I mean? Like, the whole time they've been going... And it adds a certain weight to the world itself. It's grounding in a way. And if you don't do that, what you get is a lighter touch with the experience of your show or of your movie.

And that doesn't always work, you know? This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus. L. Every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more.

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. Decafany and fantasy, I think, is a great way to put it. And I think that, like, what I want from a Willow, you know, we were talking to Mallory about this a little bit on Monday when we talked about the movie and sort of our expectations of this. Willow is a tremendously earnest movie. It's very earnest. It's not ironic. It's really earnest. So I want this to be earnest, but I want to feel the stakes and the worry and the consequences.

And I think, like, that's the thing. It's like, we're on the road. You know, our prince is missing. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. The crone, whoever she may be, is going to take over the world. whatever, plunge it all into darkness, whatever Sauron wants to do, that's what the Krohn wants to do, you know, like, I need to feel the weight of that, even as, you know, we keep the whole tone very hopeful. And that's a, that's a tricky balance. And I can understand

why the show might be, like, might mistake sort of, yeah, casual lightness for earnestness. You know what I mean, but that's not exactly what Willow is. But let's talk about the fear factor, So in the first episode, a bunch of like monsters descend on Taurus Lane and steal Eric under cover of an evil fog. We talked with Mal a bit on Monday about this idea of like 80s fantasy and it being like quite scary. We talked about return to Oz, all this sort of stuff. How was the fear factor compare between the show and the original Willow? This is way scarier. That shit was like that shit was legitimately.

scary. Like I texted you. I'm like, yo, man, this is a lot. Like, they had a fucked up eagle or something that swoops in. They had a dude with his mouth was where his nose should be and he had a hat. You know, like, it, I'm like, I'm legitimately looking at it. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm legitimately like, yo, I'm looking for what I text to you. I'm like, yo, this is. His mouth where his nose should be and he had a hat. Yeah, because he had, it was covering his head with whatever that. Yeah. He looked like the mouth of Sauron, this character from, that was from Lord of the Rings. Yeah. He looked like the mouth of Sauron. There's also a guy with his head in a cage.

And the cage guy. Yeah, the cage guy. I found out from Instagram that that guy is played by, oh, I can't never pronounce this last name because it's very Nordic. But it's Jonah something who plays, who's the new Chewbacca. So like the new guy in the Chewbacca suit is. head in a cage guy. So those are the gales. That's the name of those creatures.

We also get Bone Revers show up in episode two to sort of like run down our crew. They're a little less scary because it's the bright light of day. But an evil fog always gets to me honestly. And so like evil fog, really scary gale things come and steal Prince Eric away. Yeah. A mission to steal him. Yeah. Which makes me wonder, why would they steal the prince?

to not take a Laura Dannon. I mean, I know they might not know who she is. Are they trying to draw her out? Right. I thought that was an interesting plot point that they would come take him, you know. And I like the fact they came and took the dude. And it's ladies.

Because what did I say before? Are they doing it for themselves? They're doing it by themselves. Yeah, our damsel in distress is Prince Eric. It's not a princess. I liked the part in the first episode, we're Sorsha's talking to Kit and she talks about how the blood of Queen Babmorda

and the spirit of Queen Babmorda is like alive in all of them. And then that is something to like be on the lookout for. Something that Mallory and I talk about a lot when we talk about these fantasy stories is this idea of like conflict inside of the human heart and how that's the most compelling conflict that you can... It's not external conflict, it's conflict internally.

So like a character like, Borman, a character like Mad Mardigan, when Mad Mardigan, you're like, you're not sure which way he's going to go. You know, there's a conflict. Or with Star Wars, constantly, it's the pull of the dark side on a light side force user, like that internal conflict. Particularly a Skywalker. Yeah.

Who are always one fucking bad drink away from destroying a whole galaxy. One bender away from destroying the-Walkers. Don't you think they're just like too unsafe to exist? It's not even worth it. It's not worth it to have them be able to save everything when they are the cause of it. It's not even worth it. It's like a Skywalker's born somewhere somebody goes, ooh, he shall be my apprentice.

It's like whatever they know right away. Get rid of them. Okay, first of all, your Sith voice is something I've never heard before. It was extraordinary. But most of all, it was your face that went with it. She shall be my apprentice. Every time a Skywalker's born, like Ben's a toddler, he's walking somewhere. And the emperor's like, oh, got to have them.

They love Skywalker. You know what I mean? Can't get enough of them. Can't get enough of them. Let's talk about how they deal with the absence of Val Kilmer. And this is something when we talked about a lot with Wakanda Forever or some of the Star Wars things. When you go into something, you know the actual. is not going to be there.

How are they going to deal with it? Are we going to get some sort of like terrible CGI abomination? Are we going to get, are they just going to like yada, yada, yada it? Is it going to be a core part of the plot? What are they going to do? I think you and I were on the same page about Wakana Forever in the way that they dealt with like that they didn't try to like CGI any sort of moment with Chadwick

in that movie. And like, you know, Val is in Top Gun Maverick, but he is also an extremely ill man. He was not going to be, you know, they built that into the plot of Top Gun Maverick, but he was not going to be in this movie, in this show. I like that the absence of Mad Mardigan is like, it's not, you know, the whole thing starts with Sorce's voiceover, where she's talking about meeting Mad Mardigan, falling in love with him. And then she's like, what can I say I was young?

Which I took as like a little bit of a meta, like Joanne Wally married Val Kilmer when they were young. and then their marriage didn't last and like that. But also it's like this idea that he left and we find out that he left to go after this like ancient artifact, a cuirass, which is like basically a breastplate, a magical breastplate to like help protect the realm and didn't come back. And it's this big wound for characters like Kit, and I presume Eric, if, you know, if we spend more time with him.

But, like, how do you feel about, like, the specter of Mad Mardigan and how it looms over, over the show? I like the choice. As a character, Matt Mardigan probably wasn't very well suited to being the queen consort. You know what I mean? It just didn't seem like he was going to be that type of guy. So it reminds you of Hans Solo and Leah getting divorced. It's the same thing. It's the same shit.

Yeah. It's like they're doing the same. shit, of course, Haar's going to run out and the kids are going to end up fucked up. How can they not? You know what I mean? And so I get it.

Obviously, it's tough. You know, Val is such a big part of my movie watching history and is such a big part of my movie watching history knowing that he's maybe, yeah, maybe not, maybe struggling in his life a little bit and can't or shouldn't

wield the sword anymore. But I think it was a smart move, though. I think it was a smart move to not give us any sort of finality on Matt Mardigan right now. And I'm not sure how they're going to resolve that in the upcoming episodes.

But I have a feeling that at some point we're going to know what happened to him definitively. Without spoiling anything, I will say that there is a moment later where I had some questions about how it happened. There was something that like offended me

the way that like CGI lay at the end of Rogue One offends me and stuff like that. But I was curious how they did it. And Jack Kilmer, who's Val Kilmer's son, is sort of like involved in a thing that they do later on.

And I think it's done very well. So I'll just say that. But they got Val's son. Because Val, Val literally can't talk anymore. So, you know. Fun facts. Valcommer dated. Share.

Cindy Crawford, Angelina Jolie, Daryl Hannah, and Ellen Barkin. Ellen Barkin. One hell of a run, my friend. I mean. One hell of a run.

What's your, okay, it's quick sidebar. Quick Chimana sidebar. What's your take on the Big Easy, the film The Big Easy? I like it. Also remember, remember that that's not going to, that's going to be a layup for me.

Because I'm seeing, you know, it's, it's New Orleans and stuff. Well, that was my question is like, is it a good depiction, an interesting depiction of New Orleans to you, or is it not? You know what I mean? It's just a depiction of New Orleans. It's not one that resonates. To me, my childhood film that resonates as the number one depiction of New Orleans for me. It will always be, well, two movies, one of which I won't speak of. But the other one is Angel Heart.

Wow. Wow. There's one from the 70s. Star of the man that, you know, why am I fucking around? There's a movie with Bill Cosby called, Let's Do It Again, where they go to New Orleans, whatever, whatever. That was the first time I remember. Hey, they're having a fight at the thing, whatever, it's in New Orleans. But Sydney Porteerie, Bill Cosby.

But for me, really seeing the city and feeling like, remember, I'm from Baton Rouge, but feeling like every time you go to New Orleans, It's wet. You know, it's just rained or it's getting ready to range. Yeah. Like when you go to, when you watch Angel Heart, they nailed it. I just need everyone to know that Dennis Quaid plays a character name Remy McSwain in the Big Easy. And he is doing an accent.

So I can, I can only recommend it. But Ellen Barkin is also that movie, which I was like, is how I got there. Back to Willow. Thank you all for going on that little side journey with us, side quest with us. Speaking of like, you know, we've been talking a lot about Star Wars, and it's not surprising because this is a Lucasum joint, right? So there's like a lot of borrowed material. There is a moment, and I texted Mal about this last night, there's a moment when Willow says to Alora as he's trading her, there is an energy that flows through all living things. The bloodstream of the universe, yes.

Now the energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transform. It is by far the forciest thing I've ever heard. And I texted Mallory and I was like, this feels illegal. And she was like, hopefully John asked Uncle George for permission when he did that. Oh, yeah. They did it again. There is a direct. I'm going to send you a scene.

Okay. I'm not even going to tell you. There's a direct rip-off from young guns in this. Like, it's the same scene. It's literally the exact same. I'm going to send it to you. I'm going to send it to you. They did it twice.

And this was so blatant that when I saw it was just so weird that we were talking about Young Guns, this was so blatant that I went, oh, fuck. That's like, it's, there is as blatant, I'm sorry, guys, I'm getting back on track. There's as blatant a scene rip off in this movie as I've ever seen before in anything I've ever watched. Okay. All right. I'll be, I can't wait to find out.

But like, yeah, there's like, I don't, like, I don't, like, this is what Willow does, right? We talked about how much it lists from Lord of the Rings, the original 88 films. So, like, this is what Willow does. All the like Harry Potter, you're a wizard Harry, you're a sorceress Allora Danon stuff. The Willow Allora Luke and Ray training stuff. They're going to this immemorial city across the Shattered Sea very much like we're going to Mordor to throw the ring in Mount Doom. we've got these evil

writers trying to run them down is very much like the NASGOOle all that sort of stuff. I think the thing that works best for me though,

because we're not in a movie we're in a TV format, the thing that works best for me is when they're lifting Avatar the Last Airbender because Avatar the Last Airbender is a road show show

where you have our group going from like town to town and camping out on their way to do something and they're training as they go and they're trying to build up their skill set as they go. So, like, Jade and Kit have, like, you know, sword fighting training that we watch.

A Lord Dana needs to learn magic. Borman needs to decide whose side he's on. And as they go, they're going to encounter all these different, like, cultures in the world. And that's a really successful part of the show for me in terms of, like, you know, this is when you get your guest stars. So like Hannah Waddingham of

Emmy winner of Ted Lasso fame shows up in episode three. Christian Slater, as we mentioned on Monday's pod, is going to show up in a later episode. You know, you're going to get like a guest star of the week, a culture of the week. That premise is really works for me. And so that's when the show gets sort of like, it's like a Star Trek away mission.

It just sort of like gets better and better as it moves into that space going forward once the quest stuff kicks off. Last but not least. We're mixed on this, but like mixed hopeful, right? Like you're going to keep watching, right, Van? Like, you're not out on Willow.

No, it's not like, you know, they haven't hit me with the moon night situation to where I'm like, do I want to keep doing this? You guys can, we all liked Moonnight when it was out. I guess it was cool, but. We like parts of midnight. There's like, I don't. I think there's like a good Moonnight movie in that six episode or however long that show was.

You know, there's like two hours of good story in there, I think. Yeah. But I want to talk about, you know, you guys are going to cover a lot of this on the Midnight Mulligans and as you like reconsider the stuff that we watched in 2022. But I want to talk about this concept of squandered IP in 2022 because I think it was a big year for it. We know that Hollywood is afraid, you know, you're a. a maker of content, Van,

and you know more than I do about, like, what producers and studios are into and afraid of and, like,

we all know that they're terrified of making new things. And so they just want to, like, latch on to exist and IP and give us sequels and prequels and reboots

all with a name that we recognize, like, that this has been a thing for a while and even more so, I think, this year. And a lot of the stuff this year,

some of the best stuff this year, top gun Maverick and or we fucking loved incredible, incredible reworking of IP addition, expanding the IP stuff like that. So like when it hits, it fucking hits.

But you've got stuff like there was a Jurassic Park this year where they got Laura Dern and Sam Neal and Jeff Goldblum back together and we're like, but why? Why did you do it like that? I don't even like, you know, Lightyear, a Sex in the City TV show, Boba Fed, Nobi won your mileage

may vary, like all this sort of stuff. Like, what, Van, as a scholar's story, what do you think people are getting wrong when they sort of squander this IP? So I watched something recently. I'm into these short documentary series, and I watch one on YouTube about a guy named Fritz Haber. And Fritz Haber was a guy who invented

you know, ammonia, ammonia to be able to fertilize the soil because we were, people don't know, back in the day, that guano was very, very valuable because it had nitrogen in it, okay? 20% nitrogen. So we were going through a problem as the world population expanded to where you harvest a crop and then you harvest it again and then you harvest it again and then you harvest it again and you take the

nitrogen out of the soil. So you got to put the nitrogen back in the soil or else people are not going to be able to eat. And this guy had all kinds of problems later on. He ended up invented all kinds of terrible things. So he's a guy that killed millions of people but saved billions of people. It's a really, really interesting story, right? 25 minutes. It's really, really interesting. But the fact that you can harvest the same thing over and over and over again and take all the nutrients out of it was such an interesting concept to me. Yeah. Like you can. You can, can't go back to the same thing and grow it over and over and over again without adding something to make it grow taller and make it grow healthier. I think what we've seen in IP this year is that

some people just go back to the source and try to re-harvest something after they planted it year after year after year and try to basically get the same crops. And some people go back to that same field and they re-fertilize it. and they re-fertilize it with new ideas, they re-fertilize it with new characters, they re-fertilize it with a different way to do it, they re-fertilize it with a director that we might have not seen before,

concepts that we might not have seen before, ways of telling the story that we might have not seen before. And we've seen that that works. But just going back to the same soil and like trying to grow the same shit, it's a disservice to us. You know what I mean? And we'll always try it because we remember how the corn tastes.

But it's not quite as tall. It's not quite as bright. And we can, like, we can tell. And so I remember, like, I was thinking in my life. I was just like, you know, I don't want to re-harvest the same soil as long as I'm doing my thing. I want to always add some ammonia to it. I don't want to invent, like, explosives and, like, chemical weapons. during World War I.

I don't want to do that because he did that too. I don't want to do that. But I was, but I was, but I, but I, just the good bad guano stuff, you know, just, just the good. So I think that when

what I saw, the good IP was fertilized. It was, and look, Top Gun Maver could have easily not worked. They could have drifted into the world of teen supreme pluck, but they gave,

they gave, Maverick a new role they introduced a compelling new crop of top gun students real stakes and the same thing that happened with Andor what happened with Andor

I mean be honest with you even Obi-Wan was the same fucking shit and it kind of it just it rested on its laurels a little bit and I can't say Obi-Wan fucking sucked because I liked Obi-Wan right? But I know that it wasn't as nourishing as Andor was or some of the other stuff. So you got to be

careful with it. Willow, in my opinion, was some of the most fertile ground to really, to really expand upon because it's almost a cult classic. There was so much they could do. So I'll just have to, I'll have to keep watching and see if it gets to where it's going. But I think that's what we saw this year. We saw people take chances with the stuff that we already loved. And we saw some people who didn't. And if you didn't take any chances, you almost unanimously lost. And I mean, like, I don't think I can accuse Willow this TV show of not taking chances because there are like some big swings they're taking. I love this fertilize the ground, refertilize the ground metaphor.

I think this is a brilliant metaphor from you again, Van. But I think also you have to. You have to understand. I'm trying to yes and your metaphor. You have to understand what made the corn delicious in the first place, right? I get it. You know? Yeah.

And if you're like, oh, it was the sweetness. And we're like, no, it's the sweetness plus the texture. And if you fuck up the texture, but you have the sweetness or you have, you know, like, if you, if you don't know what all the things were that made the corn delicious in the first place. And then you're feeding it to us and we're like, it's corn like, it's cornish. But it's not corn. and I'll know it when I taste it. And that's the thing, and or especially

is such an interesting, why does it still feel like Star Wars when it's so far from Star Wars? And it's because they've tapped into something core about the idea of rebellion and revolution and all the sort of stuff that is a core, core principle

of the original trilogy that even I think George Lucas got away from in some of his, you know, subsequent films and stuff like that. So I think, yeah, it's tricky. It's not easy. I'm not sitting here and saying it's easy. And there's a reason why there's so few examples where we're like they really crushed it.

Like before Top Gun Maverick, the example we'd always go through to is like Mad Max Ferry Road. We were like George Miller. Oh, hell yeah. Really had something to do and something to say when he made Mad Max Ferry Road. You know what I mean? He wasn't just like burning the IP just to burn it. That was the best one. So good.

Like incredible. Yeah. and like Jurassic Park, you know, is one of my hero movies of all time. And that franchise has just, like, been disappointing me for decades, decades. Decades. You know? Or like the shit they do with Ghostbusters. Like all this shit, you know, is just sort of like, I'm, you know.

And again, it's not destroying my childhood. The original movies that I love are still there. Even if this will, if this, again, I do think that Willow gets better. I've seen seven episodes. There's one episode I haven't seen the finale. We don't have that yet. So, like, maybe the finale knocks it out of the park. Maybe we end this season being like, give us a season two.

We really want more Willow. But if it doesn't, if it flops, I will always have Willow. Like, this will not hurt my love of Willow in any way whatsoever. But I want a cool project for Warwick. I want to be in this world more and I want to be excited about it. So, you know, we're going to keep our eye on the rest of episodes. I don't think we're going to be covering it on the Ring Reverse anymore. That's not because how we feel about it.

It's just sort of like this was like kind of a one-off we were planning to do. But this show is going to be running through middle of January. Honestly, when the content gets a little dry, so it's possible we'll be back. No, we'll be back. You know, me and Jovana. Okay, the Jovana experience, we'll ride again. We'll ride again. We'll be back.

We'll be back. By the way, I just want to make sure before I go, you didn't, you were saying some of Lucas's sub-suc, that wasn't like, you weren't getting that revenge of Sith. Oh, we all know the Revenge of the Sith is a perfect film, man. Like, we know that. Just making sure there was no, I don't, you know, this whole workwife situation is in danger. If, if, I don't know, the way you feel about the Last Jedi is how I feel about Revenge of the Sith. Is that fair? Can we meet each other in the middle? Oh, I got you. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm like, I like it fine, but not as much as Van likes it. And he likes the that's what I find, just not as much as I like it.

But let's just work together to, I don't know, Barry Attack of the Clones or whatever we decided we want to do. I guess, I mean, we should say before we go, in the like generally positive, this is the least afraid to be gay thing I've seen out of Disney, maybe ever. Is that right to you? Right away. They jump right to it.

They're gay. Great. Here we are. Not a problem. And not in a way that we can like cut out. and show it in Kuwait or something like that. No, it is, it is, it is very central to the entire deal that they, and it's right there for the beginning. I'm like, oh, they're gay.

Yeah. Very special. All right, anything else I'm going to say before we go? I love to end on a, they're gay, kind of note. What else you want to say? Hey, just make sure you stay with us in the next couple of weeks. We're about to get these takes off. We're unhinged.

there's no more content for a while. We're unhinged. We're unbridled. Like, we're unhinged. It's about to be, this is about to be, I predict, this is going to be the most unhinged month in the universe history. Because we don't have any shows. All we have left are takes.

All we have is each other. All we have is each other. We have worked our asses all. There have been so much stuff to cover. And now there's just, our brains are just filled with takes. And we're about to get them off for the next month. December is officially take month. I mean.

Take month 2020. Take November? No, we don't fuck with pluck, but we do fuck with corn metaphors. And we will be riding out the year with each other. We're going to do, there's going to be midnight mulligans. There's going to be best of 2022. I think we're going to do the versies. Like there's just going to be a lot of stuff coming from us.

That's just just, you know, hanging out. in December. Anything else? That's it. We did it. Thanks to the usual suspects, which are, Arjuna and Gras, Steve Allman, show me a dinner on.

I mean, while we're at it, fuck it, thanks to Charles Holmes and Mallory Rubin, our pals as well. Absolutely. Thanks to my favorite fellow Willow fan van. And if you were like, hey, man, I listened to this episode about an hour of conversation with a weird diversion over into talking about the big easy a film that I've never heard of

because it's like another one of those weird 80s relics that only Van and Joanna know about. And you're like, this is a bizarrely negative episode of the Ring of us. I'm just here to tell you. We're about to talk about our favorite shit

of the year for this ever. So things are going to turn around. We're hoping Willa turns around for us too and we will be back next week. Bye! What's the difference between butter

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