The Royals with Roya and Kate - Andrew sex allegations - time for the King to act?

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Virginia Giuffre's memoir - 'Nobody's Girl' - claims Prince Andrew felt ‘sex with me was his birthright’. He has denied all allegations that he had sex with the then 17 year old, but do the Epstein links again threaten the wider reputation of the monarchy? Andrew has already been stripped of any meaningful official role. He no longer receives public funds, and holds no royal patronages. He has had to relinquish his honorary military titles. But what do the British public think about this ongoing and ever more upsetting saga? Recorded live in front of an audience at the Cheltenham Literature Festival on 16th October 2025.Image: Getty Images Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hello, I'm Royne Nicar, and I'm Kate Mansy. Welcome to the Royals from the Times and Sunday Times. We're in the historic town of Cheltenham, in the Royal Heartlands for the Cheltenham Literature Festival, where we're about to talk to a live audience to find out what they want to know about the royal family. And we come to you just as the posthumous memoir of Virginia Joufrey is published. Nobody's Girl, which keeps fresh revelations about her claims, the Duke of York, Prince Andrew, and I quote, he was entitled, as if he believed having sex with me was his birthright. The Duke of York has denied the allegations.

It's another example of how there is such a dichotomy in the nature of royal reporting. The series of damaging allegations against Andrew, and then there's efforts that the working royals make to present a monarchy that's relevant and responsive. So how best to report the Royals? The questions today will come from Jeremy Griffin, the Times executive editor. Good morning. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome to the Chatham Literature Festival. My name's Jeremy Griffin. I'm the executive editor of the Times and the Sunday Times. We're the headline sponsors of this annual festival of writing. Not just writing, though. conversation, enlightenment, entertainment. I hope we're going to bring all these three things to you today and more as we discuss what it's like to be reporting the royals

and asking you what you want to know about reporting the royals. And we're still in a relatively new era, obviously following the death three years ago of Queen Elizabeth the second. So I thought it might be interesting to talk about how the key royals, you know, the most senior members of the royal family, are adapting. Let's start with the king first. It seems like the obvious place to start. do you think he's doing, Roya?

I think he's doing very well, given that before he became king, before the accession, there was so much nervousness from his camp and within the households about how would he be received. And he was stepping into these enormous shoes to fill. The Queen had done that job for more than 70 years. She'd become this sort of beyond national treasure and on the global stage. And the King had been, you know, quite a divisive figure over the years. As Prince of Wales, he'd been very campaigning. You'd had the issues of the break. down of his marriage with Diana. He didn't feel, and his team didn't feel he had the love and support that his mother did. And yet when he became King, that, you know, that changed very quickly.

You felt the grounds well of support for him. I think he's made the transition very well from campaigning sometimes meddling Prince to finding a new way to kind of campaign more gently behind the scenes as King. But I think there is an ongoing issue for the King, and again, has been all across the headlines last night and today, in that there is a really, risk for the king that his legacy will end up being family discord, family turmoil, family scandal, whether that's with the Duke of York or the Duke of Sussex, beyond what he's actually trying to achieve as king. And that is an ongoing problem for him, which at the moment doesn't feel like the palace is really able to solve. Yeah. He's a husband, he's a father, he's a

grandfather, he's undergoing treatment for cancer, to top it all, he's head of state. How draining is it for him, then to have to deal with two ongoing family catastrophes, really? I think we can call them those, by which I mean is faltering relationship with Harry, and then the increasingly grotesque scandal of the Duke of York's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, I mean, I was speaking to people around the palace for a story that ran online last night and in the imprint today about what the king can possibly do. I think it's a source, I understand it from very good sources that it's a source of great concern for the king.

It is draining. He wants to get on with the work. He wants to get on with the job. That's what he loves. That's what he's waited a lifetime to do. So when something detracts from that, it's a source of frustration. But when it overshadows the work itself,

it's worse than that. It's really kind of casting a shadow over the monarchy, over the institution, that he's now in a position to lead and protect. And I think that's the big bugbear for Charles, not necessarily, oh, you know, what are they doing now? But just what are the ramifications for this?

You know, people in the palace are saying, what do you think the public think? That's what they're so concerned about. You've written quite a lot of words for the Times this morning, Kate. So why don't you just sum up very briefly what the story concerning Andrew was yesterday, and then we'll get into how you deal with it. Yeah.

So someone who knows Andrew and the King well said, there's a saying in Parliament that the Tories get in trouble over sex, Labor get in trouble over money, because neither have enough, and Andrew gets in trouble for both. And that's what's happened. The latest revelations, of course, are the book Nobody's Girl by Virginia Dufray, published posthumously. She died, as you remember, in April, age just 41 by suicide.

She was a sex traffic victim of Jeffrey Epstein, and has always claimed, and the Duke has always denied, that she had sex with him on three occasions. What we're seeing in the memoir is not new material per se, but it's more from her words. I think there's a poignancy from beyond the grave. She says that Andrew believed it was his birthright to have sex with her.

At that stage, she was age 17. You're right to say grotesque. Some of the elements are grotesque, and I think the devil is in the detail here in the allegations that she made. She was wearing sparkly jeans and a little pink t-shirt at the time. She was only 17. It is grotesque, and I think that the timing of it couldn't be worse for the palace.

It comes just a few days after we saw an email from the Duke of York, writing to Geoffrey Epstein in February 2011 saying, after that picture emerged of him with Dufre, saying, we're in this together to Epstein, saying, let's play more again soon. After he has a wisdom-eyed cutting off that friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, In 2010. So on Sunday, we were told, and this is a seismic shift,

because while the public might think, oh, yeah, we know he's a wrong and he's awful, and this is just more of the same. At the palace, this was seismic, because this is the first time we've had proof that he lied that email on Sunday. Now we have, from beyond the grave, Virginia Dufre's testimony again,

and all the poignancy of that, I think this is a moment that, well, in the public mind, it's just more of the same. I think this is a huge moment for the palace. Well, I was going to say, so just for clarity, the story that emerged last weekend about the email in which he said we're in it together with Epstein, that directly contradicts answers that you gave to Emily Maitlis in that famous Newsnight interview. The one point at which Andrew has been front and centre, giving his answers to the questions

relating to this scandal, he's now been shown to have been lying, which does feel like a big moment. Roy, there was a line in Kate's piece this morning, which I just want to read out from a royal source who says, it's a source of immense frustration and concern that there continue to be holes picked in the Duke's story, and there is understandable anxiety that will impact on the raw family's wider reputation and public work, not least, of course, the Queen's, Queen Camilla's notable leadership in campaigning against all forms of sexual abuse. That sounds very much to me. What can they possibly they don't know what to do about

him? No, they don't. And it's an interesting point to talk about the Queen's work on, you know, she's a long-standing campaigner on the issue of raising awareness around victims of sexual abuse and sexual violence. We've just been the last podcast episode was Christina Lam who just been in the DRC with the Duchess of

Edinburgh, who was also a long-standing campaigner on the same issue. And you have this constant drip and constant kind of scandal around the Duke of York, who we now know lied in the Newsnet interview. I'm not sure anyone really believed much of what he said. And all of this, as the king in the last couple of years, has absolutely upheld his mother's line in terms of making sure Andrew was sort of out of public life, not, you know,

giving him any baubles or titles. But he had tried to bring both Fergie and Andrew back in from the cold. That sort of Christian streak in Charles, people always say he's a very emotional man and, you know, Andrew is his brother. They're not great mates. They don't get on really well. But He'd let him come to family Christmases. He'd let him even do, you know, Fergie and Andrew do the walk to St. Mary's Church. And that has just catastrophically backfired on him because this is now all we're talking about. It's now very much in the public consciousness. You know, that memoir is officially published next week.

This is going to run and run. You know, the king and queen are going to the Vatican soon. The queen will want to keep doing engagements on that. But this is just hanging over them. And they don't know what to do about it. You're right, because they've tried. You know, the king has said, I want you to be invisible. The Duke of York's never want to be invisible.

Kate's written an enormous amount about the siege of Royal Lodge. The king tried to get Andrew out of Royal Lodge. He can't get him out of Royal Lodge because he's got a lease with the Crown Estate. So he's not going anywhere. And so what else can you do? You sit tight and you hope that the stain quietly or gradually fades, but it's not going to, I don't think. No. You refer in one of your pieces this morning how they might deal.

with Andrew, to some of his heraldic titles, do you think there's any possibility that they would be removed? I know that it was quite a complicated process. Why don't they just take him the dukedom off him? Why don't they just stop him being a prince? Why don't they stop him being a knight of the garter? And they are all perfectly reasonable questions as particularly to be asking now. The answers, I suppose, and the options available to the king are if you take away the dukedom, you'd need an act of parliament. Does Charles really want to bring in into parliament waste parliamentary time on something like that raise the issue of it that's a tricky one you would actually have to extinguish the dukedom to get rid of it and then there might be a question as

should harry having left royal duties still remain duke of sussex might open a can of worms they don't want to open having said that i think it would be supported by the public because over summer we saw a ugov poll in which 67% of people said that they would support andrew having the duke of york title taken off him. So you say you take the Duke off him, that he'd still be known as a prince. To some people, being Prince sounds better than being a Duke. Now, he's enshrined in law, a prince under George V's letter's patent from 1917, which stipulates that as a child of the monarch, and any children of any sons of the monarch, they are entitled to be known as Prince and Princess. And while George V meant it as a way to kind of limit the people who could use Prince and Princess as a

title. Now it's actually being used to protect the sons, the children of the sons of the monarch, in this case, Harry's children, Andrew's children and Andrew himself. Also, in World War One, we had aristocrats who were titled dukes having those sanctions and those titles taken away because they were fighting for the German army. So there are other ways to do it. It can be done and it can be done quickly if the will is there. And then the Knight of the Garter issue separately as well. He remains a knight of the garter, you know, the highest order of chivalry, which is astonishing, really, they will say, okay, he doesn't take part in the annual Garter Day parade with all the plumes and the theatrics through Windsor. But he did still go in the back door, essentially, and attend the lunch. Now, people were saying to me yesterday that he shouldn't be doing that either. I mean, that would be the first step, really, that Charles could take to say, you know, no. There are also some suggestions as well from some sources. and some raw reporting, that by somehow almost exiling the Duke of York would be the answer. And I have to say, I totally disagree.

I think that by keeping Andrew really out of sight and out of mind from the King's perspective has backfired on him because he's just not known what he's been up to. All of this has been rumbling away and it's coming out in sort of the worst possible way in terms of media revelations and books. The emergence last year that he'd been really Pally with an alleged Chinese spy. All of that has been happening because the palace took the view. he's no longer working royal so let's keep him over there well if you keep him over there and you don't know what he's getting up to

this is what happens particularly when it's someone who needs money for the upkeep of the Royal Lodge on the Windsor Estate as well as brings us back to the money and the sex that's the thing the palace no it's not going away I was talking someone the other day who Emma famously Andrew was the unless you were going to disabuse me this notion was the favourite child of the late Queen

she was certainly very fond of him and someone said I'm just he was her blind spot right someone said I'm glad she's not around to see this happening today I find it so morbidly fascinating because I grew up, I remember Andrew flying off on a chopper to the Falkland Islands and dating Coos Stark and being known as Randy Andy, and it was all a bit of a laugh, really. He was kind of this pin-up for the Royals.

Who was? He's a Gordon boy, especially after the fork now, he's a pariah parent. He really is. He really is. I mean, it's not like we get to interview Andrew very often. We don't get much access to him, but of what you know about him, I suspect I know the answer to this, but of what you know about him, why doesn't he just say

you know what I realize I'm not helping you out here I'll move out of the Royal Lodge I'll just go and live a quiet life somewhere and I mean what's stopping him doing that other than his ego his own character I wrote a profile of Andrew

a few years ago for the Sunday Times magazine and I spent a lot of time on it and talked to a lot of people for it and I literally could not find a single person who knew him or had worked with him to say a single positive nice thing about him Right. From household staff who'd worked with him, he came across as an absolute, you know, an extraordinary mixture of arrogance and not very clever.

He was sort of borderline a bit of a bully sometimes with some members of the household and, you know, quite aggressive in his approach if he was getting advice he didn't want to hear. But as far as Andrews concerned, he's done nothing wrong. You know, he's never admitted even with a multi-million pound payoff to Virginia Juffray to keep that case out of court. by the way the Queen was still alive then and did have to go through all of that and did help fund it and she helped fund it and she saw the sort of steady collapse of what was going on

but he's never omitted liability even in that news night interview with Emily Maitlis when she prompts him right at the end and says is there anything else you want to say are you apologised to the victims he didn't think he had anything to apologise for or even expressing any remorse or regret for what they've been through

even if you say you had nothing to do with it the first thing you would say would be well first of all my thoughts are with the victims So it's almost beyond ego. He doesn't think he's done anything wrong. Yeah, I mean, you know, Andrew Lanny's book came out recently entitled, and that's the word that Dufrey has used in her memoirs, the first section of which we've seen come out last night.

And that really is, he feels entitled. He is widely said to be arrogant. You know, we've seen it. We saw him at the Duchess of Kent funeral. He was making jokes with Prince William on the steps. When he turns up to things, he doesn't do it in a quiet way. He wants to be seen. and Royal Lodge is his last bit of status.

So that's why he's clinging on to that, despite the fact that it's financially ruinous for him because he's now funding it all through whatever money he has from sources unknown. It's very interesting. I think that quote that we discussed earlier on just told me a lot about the mentality within the Royal House of the moment.

So perhaps something will happen. I don't know what it would be. Let's just go back to Charles again because what we haven't spoken about yet with regards to him is his illness. How do you think he's doing? Well, we see him, don't we were, up close? And he's in and of himself, he's jolly. He loves the job. He lives for it. And he loves getting out and meeting people. His frustration I gather from speaking to people close to him is that the treatment does have side effects, doesn't make you quite so upbeat. And it also physically takes you away when you have to have that treatment, which he's still having. It's so hard to say because he, you know, obviously we see him aging, but he, there's suddenly a twinkle in the eye. there's still a lot of energy.

We were with him when he went to Samoa and Australia last year, which was a really long trip and obviously long haul. And actually it was the queen after that who fell ill with a kind of bout of pneumonia. And he paused his treatment to be able to go and do that trip. Now, we're not seeing a big trip this autumn like we would normally do yet. There's a 24-hour visit to the Vatican, which was postponed when the late Pope was dying, was ill.

So, yeah, I mean... Managing it. Managing it, and it's very important to the palace and him that he's seen to be out and about. So when he was off official duties and public-facing duties, when he was being driven around London, they made sure that he was in the state Bentley where he could be seen and see people, and waving, you know, that reassuring sign that I'm OK. I think what's been interesting about some of his engagement since he had a very short time away from public duties,

only about two months. But what has been interesting, and the Princes of Wales has done the same, is that he has been into hospitals, he has sat down with fellow cancer patients, he has talked about their treatment, he has made reference to some of his experience of his own. And that, I think, has humanised Charles in a way that, as awful as it is, to be going through cancer and living with it as he is, I think that has made him almost more relatable to me. Yeah, yeah, I would say that's true. How often does he have his treatment? It's weekly. It is weekly. That's really grueling, yeah?

The palace don't make any, they don't try and hide that. They've been very open about that, that that is still ongoing, that he's living with cancer. Okay. Can we just raise the house light slightly? Because I want to ask you if you've got any questions at this point. Hello. I was just wondering, who is leaking the emails on Andrew and Fergie? Because I read Andrew Lowney's book as well. And there's all these emails flying around. And who's leaking them? Good question. Well, no one technically has obviously admitted to who's leaked them. But I've got my, you know, my suspicion is, and I don't know whether I might or not, but if you think about the fact that Jeffrey Epstein's estate, vast estate of emails, correspondence, everything, going back decades, is the subject of, at the moment, many, many civil claims from a lot of women still, a lot of ongoing civil claims into that.

That's a vast amount of paperwork, emails, text messages that I should think many, many, many pairs of eyes are on. And what do you think of the popularity of the royals with the public? Polls seem to suggest that they maintain popularity with older people, but very questionable with younger people who, seem to question, you know, their very purpose. I think that's the big challenge, isn't it, for the royal family? I mean, the polling consistently from organisations like you gov tends to show, as you say,

that it's normally always the last sort of year or two, it's been Prince William at the top, then Catherine, then the King, Princess Anne, Andrew, and the Sussex is right at the bottom. There is always, it's always been a generational split and there always was actually even when the late Queen was alive. But that is the future challenge for the royal family. increasingly younger generations are less interested, less convinced by the relevance of having a constitutional, non-elected head of state.

And what is the point of the royal family going forwards in terms of the majority of the public are constantly polled are in favour of retaining a constitutional monarchy, but young people don't really know what it's for. And actually, if you talk to young people, a lot of people sort of in their teens or 20s, they don't know who Prince Edward is. If you mention the Duke of York,

they won't know which one that is. So I think that's the future for the likes of Prince William, in the future when he's King William. How do you keep the royal family relevant? And I think you start to see that in some of the work that he and Catherine are doing. They want to try and connect with the wider public. They want to try and reach younger audiences. But it's a challenge because also this is a family that retains a lot of palaces, castles that are not necessarily living in, what are they being used for?

How much does it all cost? That is the big challenge. You're absolutely right. is the generational split. Let's just do one more question now. We will come back at the end for more. Just quickly, what is the future for Beatrice and Eugenie in the middle of all this with their parents?

Good question. I know. I think Charles seems to think a lot about them and keeps them quite close, but obviously now they've got to live with the... It's really... I do feel for the daughters, and I think they've turned out incredibly well,

given, you know, both their parents. and Beatrice in particular I think is far more intelligent than anybody gives her credit for I sat down and had conversations with her and had cups of tea with her and things like that and I think she's really a really impressive young woman I do feel for them hugely I mean how embarrassing is it for Princess Eugenie who has a sort of anti-trafficking charity that she started with a friend of hers in Dubai and even the Joufrey book what in the extract we just seen last night. He says to Virginia, you know, you're slightly older than my two daughters. I mean, oh, the last thing I want to do is being dragged into it. I think the palace is very fond of

them. And William is, he had a garden party, I think last year where he had the princesses along as well. I mean, they could be a real asset. And if you look at what happened last year at Christmas, just before Christmas, the emergence of the story of Yang Tembo, the alleged Chinese spy, who Andrew was very great mates with, the king let it be known very quickly. I don't want Andrew coming for Christmas so Fergie and Andrew stayed at home Turkey for two at Royal Lodge and then it was briefed out just before Christmas

that the girls would not be with them that usually was going to spend Christmas with her husband and Beatrice went to Sandringham Beatrice spent Christmas with her uncle and with her cousins and I think that tells you that Charles William the wider old family are able to keep the girls close they think that you know why should they suffer

because of the sins of the fathers But it must be excruciating for them, but I don't think that risks their position in the royal family in terms of the family business rather than the institution. Hey friends, it's Nikaela from the podcast Side Hustle Pro. I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens. And the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver. My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen. hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads.

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Planet Initiative. I want to talk about the Prince and Princess of Wales now. Roya, first, the health of the princess. Do you think her recovery is going to plan? Yes, I think so. I think, you know, having had the news from her last year that she's thankfully in remission, you know, right from the start of her illness and her then recovery,

she's been very open, much more open, I think both her and the King, than we've ever really had with previous members of the Royal Family. She's been very open about talking about how it's made her feel, how she needed that time away from the public eye and needed the sort of help from the public to respect that and the public and the media have been very respectful of that. We've, I think, all been very conscious

the fact that she's wanted to do this phased and gradual return to public duties. I think we're starting to see a little uptick in that now. I think it was important for her to feel she didn't have the full weight of pressure on her. She did still feel that because we've heard her talk about it. We've heard her go into engagement saying, I think everyone just expected me to,

as soon as I said I was in remission, be up and running as if everything was normal again. And we know that that's not how she's felt. she pulled out a Royal Ascot at the last minute, I think probably because she just didn't fill up to it that day, and that's fine. And I think what it has done for both her and the king is I think there's been a bit of a reset

between what's expected of her as a senior member of the royal family as a future queen and what she feels she actually wants to prioritize now going forward, which is her health, her time with her family, and I think the job comes secondary to that. Yeah, like a normal mother, really. Kate, obviously, you know, health concerns are generally, well, they are private, but when we're writing about Catherine, we're writing about the future queen as well. You know, I know we sit in the newsroom at times and we discuss when these briefings come out, the information that we've got, and it's great that she's been so open.

Do you think we've had enough information? Could there be more open about, with both the King and Catherine, actually, about the specific types of cancer that they've been suffering from, for instance, or do you think they've got the balance just right? Well, the King's view was always the line, anyway, from the palace, whether or not, was they didn't say what type of cancer it was, apart from guiding that it wasn't prostate cancer. They didn't say what type of cancer it was because he wanted to throw his arms around the whole cancer community. And actually, I think that's probably been a good thing. The Princess of Wales has always had this kind of, with William, this kind of strong kind of sense of boundaries. You know, we saw it when William did a TV show with Eugene Levy recently.

And William mentioned that we were dealing with the illness. We didn't know how to talk to our children about it. We weren't going to talk to the world about it, which is absolutely right and proper. And he said that that sort of speculation was almost as bad as the illness, essentially. Yeah. So I think it's really a difficult balancing act. But in William's mind, it's very clear that he will only say what he wants to say.

we talked about the insatiable media of the past, of people getting, you know, everything, getting into every part of their lives when his parents were splitting up and how damaging that was. So he's still in his mind trying to, you know, appeal to the younger generation through his new kind of new videos

of everything he does because he knows that's how people are accessing the news when they're teenagers to try to bring young people into interest about the monarchy, but also kind of keeping his private time as well. And I think he's doing a pretty, good job, I have to say. I think he's managing to tow that line pretty

well. I think that's really interesting, Roy. I feel like the shadow of his childhood still looms very large over William and the way he puts himself about. I think it definitely does, but I think the shadow of his childhood looming over him, I think

if you look at how he has managed it and how he handles it and how his brother has managed it and handled it, I think that's quite a stark contrast. There's absolutely no doubt about the fact that the experience of his childhood, the breakdown of his parents' marriage very publicly, from when he was very young, when I think the age of sort of, you know, 10 or 12 when they divorced, the impact that had in terms of public scrutiny, the pain that caused, that has informed every decision, I would say every decision he has made about his family life,

the way he wants to lead his life, the way he does his public work, some of the causes that he champions, whether that's mental health or, you know, child bereavement. It is constantly informing what he does. It's constantly informing him putting the guardrails up. William comes under a lot of criticism from us, from some members of the public in terms of his workload. People often think he could do more. Years ago, he was called work shy wills. But for him, and particularly in that Eugene Levy interview, I think he came and sort of, you know, setting out his stall saying, I make the decisions to put my family first because I want to set them up for the future. I had a very different experience and I want them to have stability while they still can. I don't want to make the

mistakes my parents made is what he said yeah it seems to be a theme in within the royal family this yeah i think it does i think it does i think it does i think almost he's made for him positive decisions on that whereas i think with harry it still eats away at him on an almost daily basis and tortures him i don't i don't look at william and think he's tortured by it no yeah harry doesn't seem that he's made peace with his past in the way that william does despite a lot of what he said i mean they're a very campaigning couple in the past we've had charles in the environment We had Diana when she was alive, landmines, anti-AIDS stigma. Charles ran into problems, of course, with some of the letters that he wrote in particular.

Do you think the Prince and Princess are wary of becoming too political, or do they see themselves as having, just frankly, in the 21st century, too much significant influence to have to worry about constitutional norms? Kate, you go first. I think it is a topic that William thinks about a lot. I know he would like to say more about the situation in Gaza but feels restricted. by his position in the same way, probably not too similar way as his father, obviously wanted to do more than he felt he was able to do.

You know, I was with William the other week when he opened a permanent memorial to humanitarian aid workers in Gunnersbury Park, and he gave a speech talking about the situation and not forgetting the people on the ground there. So he does, I think he knows that he has a very important role to play in all this. You know, he obviously played a key role at the state visit, with Trump recently, and he knows how important that relationship is.

He's followed a lot of the same subjects that his father has, but he's sort of doing it in a slightly different way with the Earthshot Prize. But I think he, you know, we still will see probably a few more outspoken moments from William and future. It's very interesting, Roy, because I think we can probably guess what William's sentiments are with regard to the Middle East and with regard to Trump. But it's hard for him to voice those, given the fact that he has a diplomat. role to play on behalf of the government as well he made a statement on the middle east last year

i think it was where you know he made a very sort of strong statement saying the suffering has got to stop on both sides and that had been cleared with the foreign office it caused a little bit of controversy here and there but it you know it was cleared by government in terms of trump much harder for him because whatever you might think personally trump has latched on to him as someone in the royal family he really is a big fan he loves him isn't it calls him handsome whenever he can you know someone said to me William only needs to smile at Trump when we get a cut in tariffs

you know we saw we saw we saw him personally request to see William after the reopening of Notre Dame that was before he'd seen Kirstarmo after his re-election he really loves William he wants to hang out with William and so William's constitutional role is this is in the interest of UKPRC

I got a crack on and do it that's quite an undertaking I have to Okay, you mentioned Harry. What about Harry, right? This is a guy who, you know, he flounced out of the country, launched several mainly unsuccessful lawsuits. His charity in Africa has caught up in all sorts of accusations of bullying and even illegality by some former members of stuff. So I want to break this question down into constituents. You can choose it goes first. I don't mind. Will he ever want to come back? Would his father welcome him back and does the public want him back? No, no, and no.

No, no and no. Well, let's break it down. I think, look, does he want to come back? Yes, to visit, to live, no. He's living his nice life in Montecito. Him and Megan seem, hopefully they're happy. I hope they are. And two lovely kids.

Does he want to see more of his father? Yes. He's made that very, very clear. And he's made it clear that he wants to come back and have some sort of role here. Not an official working member of the royal family, but he does want to come and continue. with charity work here. We saw it in September when he came back and he essentially did royal

engagements, you know, to the point that there were operational notes sent out. They're the notes that we get as journalists from the palace to tell us what's happening and when, and they call them operational notes. So does Harry, because he isn't acting like any other celebrity. He's acting like a member of the family. He went and, you know, took part in the BBC Children in Need community studio were up in Nottingham. He went and did an engagement that was linked to his Invictus program. And then, you know, he saw the king for a very short kind of 50-minute cup of tea. But I don't think he wants to come back permanently.

Is he more trouble than he's worth, Roya? No, I don't think he is more trouble than he's worth. Harry, over the years, has done, you know, the public and sometimes we forget a lot of very good work. You've got to remember it was only a few years ago. He used to top those popularity polls with the Queen not far behind. him. And look how quickly that has turned. I believe it could turn again for him. I think when he came back in September, you know, I went and saw him at an engagement with Wellchild, and you were reminded whenever you see him doing those engagements, how good he is at that kind

of work. Do I think we still miss him at moments like the Senataph? Yes, I do. Seeing him in uniform there, do I think that might be a good thing? Yes, I'm afraid I do. This is a member of the family who served two tours in Afghanistan. I know you can't do half in, half out, but I still feel there was a deal to cut there. Do I think the king would welcome him back? Yes, if he comes with no agenda whatsoever other than to spend family time. The king would love to see his grandchildren.

He's not seen them for three years. Do I think the public would welcome him back? Yes, I do. I think despite that fall in popularity, despite the fact he languishes near the bottom of those polls now, I've always felt, from my experience of seeing him, working alongside him, I feel there's still a very soft spot for Harry among the public.

He did have a good reception in Notting. He did, and I think if he was to come back and do bits and pieces here in an uncomplicated, unstressful way that doesn't have the drama that normally surrounds everything he does. He needs to dial down the drama. I think if he lessens the drama around him, the public will remember that cheeky-chappy guy, you know, too much army, not enough prints,

getting naked in Vegas, the public love him for that. Is that possible, though, given... It's there, it's in him, it's in him. If he comes back, you know, he's married to Megan. Oh, he's not going to go. Yes, he is. I don't mean come back in a kind of formal, as Kate said. He doesn't want a kind of official role here. But there is a world in which he could come back a little bit more, do more regular engagements, fit a little bit more into public life in a uncomplicated, undramatic way. But that needs. But I don't think that's possible for Harry. It needs movement in both sides. And Harriet, these days, seems a bit more addicted to drama than I think needs to be. It is, yeah. I mean, it is always the drama. Like I say, there was this cup of tea with the king. And then after that, there was sort of a story in the Sun newspaper, a few details about it that they'd handed over a family photograph to the King as a gift

and a bit of joke about it seeming like an official visit. And Montecito went nuts over that story and accused the palace of sabotaging, the reunion between father and son by leaking information, the men in grey suits they said to come down. Yet that isn't how you act if you genuinely want to just see Dad and come back and help your charities. It was a very false briefing, wasn't it?

Yeah, and then the palace then were forced to kind of respond, not officially, but people in the palace that are saying, that's just not the case, and it's not helpful. I think that's a great idea for Harry to dial down the drama, come back, do his trip, but I just don't think he's capable of it at the moment. Okay, there you have it.

An undramatic return from Harry is what we need, but we think that's somewhat implausible. Certainly keeps us busy, though, so... Yeah. Let's come back to you for questions now if we can do. I can see a hand waving there. Thank you very much. Very interesting discussion. Could I just ask, in your opinion, how much do you think all these royals WhatsApp each other?

We know, we know that they do. We know that they do. I mean, went to a Duchy of Cornwall briefing, didn't we? And the chief exec was saying, you know, sometimes I think, you know, my WhatsApps from William are in the dozens over the weekend if he's seen something he likes, even more if he's seen something he doesn't like about his estate. So we do

know that there are WhatsApps. Oh, to be a member of one of those WhatsApp groups, I would I was going to ask, don't they WhatsApp you? Only when they're complaining about a story by their press secretaries. I know that Princess Anne is on WhatsApp because someone who knows Zara and Mike very well shared a few sentiments that

Anne had sent backwards and forwards when the whole Harry and Meghan thing was exploding and it was let's just say she's quite funny on WhatsApp. Next question. You say you'd like to have Harry back, but with Harry, Megan would come back. It would cause chaos in the royal family, and it would break it all up again. It's disastrous to have Harry back, I think.

I mean, there would be a moment when they'd be required to appear together, and we'd all print that picture from a few years ago and then print the... Is there, though, because, you know, Harry did come back from the coronation. Megan did not come back with him. Harry came back for a week last month Megan did not come with him Although she did go to Paris for the fashion work I think Megan's time with the UK is done

I don't think she wants to come here I don't think in the public feel that one we taught her here So actually I would disagree with you I think it is possible for Harry to come back regularly while still being happily married in Montecito Without Megan and pick up little bits of his life here that he's still misses and he enjoys

It's hard to think she would want him to come back With the children without her I mean that's very hard to imagine And also William wouldn't stand for it. You know, all the things that Harry said against him is one thing, but the fact that Harry's been so rude about his wife, I think he's just crossed a line that, to William,

how can William possibly come back from that? We're out of time, I'm afraid. That absolutely flew by. Thank you, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for your questions. Thank you. Thank you very much, ladies. Thank you.

Thank you, Roy O'Nica, and Kate Glancy. Our thanks to everyone who joined us at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. And you can email us at the Royals at the times.com.uk with any comments or questions. And we will include them in the future episode wherever we can. Many has been a total lifesaver. My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen, hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads. With hundreds of options for ages zero to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again. Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y.com.

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