The Royals with Roya and Kate - Can Charles reunite with Harry and keep William on side?

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Prince Harry is expected to return to Britain in September, amid signs of a thaw in his relationship with King Charles. But where does that leave Prince William? And can the King rebuild ties with his younger son while keeping his heir on side?Roya Nikkhah is joined by journalist Catherine Mayer, author of Divide and Rule: Royal Women and Their Battles, and The Times columnist Hilary Rose to ask whether the Highgrove reunion marked a genuine turning point. Why does William remain unable to forgive Harry? Has his silence protected his dignity, or allowed his brother’s account to dominate? And could Harry’s growing presence in Britain force the royal family to confront their estrangement?They also discuss the role of Camilla and Catherine in managing the family conflict, the significance of Harry potentially staying at Buckingham Palace, and why next year’s Invictus Games could present Charles and William with a difficult choice.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to press follow at the top of your podcast app.What do you think: can Charles rebuild his relationship with Harry while keeping William on side? Get in touch: [e-mail]’s book, Divide and Rule: Royal Women and Their Battles is available now. You can buy a copy from The Times Bookshop, with a special discount for Times+ members.Image: GettyProducer: Robert WallaceVideo Producer: Eve ChadbournExecutive Producer: Priyanka DeladiaWatch us on YouTube.Read more: Harry and Meghan’s photos show a perfect summer. Why aren’t they happy? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals, the podcast where we discuss what happens behind palace walls and why it matters. I'm Roya Mika. The King, the Air and the Spare. Is this royal reconciliation ever really possible? Well, it's been the royal story of the summer. After months of legal battles and palace drama, a private meeting at High Grove between Harry and the King was the clearest sign yet of a potential thaw. between father and son. But where does that leave the Prince of Wales? Relations between William and Harry remain frozen with little sign that I the brother is ready to break the ice. Yet with Harry

expected to return to Britain in September and reports suggesting he may be staying at Buckingham Palace this time, the dynamic is undoubtedly shifting. So, can Charles reunite with his younger son while keeping his air on side. And what does Harry's growing presence in Britain mean for William? Well, Kate's away this week, but joining me to discuss this are two guests who have been following this closely. Catherine Mayer is a journalist and author of this new book, Divine Rule, Royal Women and their battles.

And Hillary Rose is a writer, columnist and seasoned Royal Watcher at the Times. Catherine Hillary, thank you for joining us on the Royals. Thank you for having you. Now, we've had quite a lot of chatter about Harry in the last few weeks because, of course, just last month we had him over here. There was a lot going on. There was that loss against Association East Coast Limited where he lost that long-running legal battle. We had him here doing all his Invictor stuff.

There was a briefing war between the palace and Harry's camp about whether or not he would stay at Buckingham Palace. Yes, he would. No, he wouldn't. then we had him issuing that extraordinary statement calling his loss and the judge who made that decision a complete and obvious whitewash. And then just days later, we had him seeing the king at High Grove with Megan and the children the first time the king had seen his grandchildren for four years. So it's been a bit like this. And it looks like we're all set to possibly have a little bit of a repeat of that in just a few weeks.

What have you both made of it all, Catherine? Well, I was actually very pleased that there was the visit. it just on a human level. I think we always watch this institution for the people because there is no other choice that the institution and the people are indivisible. But that makes that line between what's private and public very, very hard to judge. And it means that these terrible traumatic issues tend to play out in public but not with full information. On a human level, you know, you know that the king has his diagnosis, you know that there is this estrangement and that family estrangements are really painful. I was just glad that it happened.

But in terms of what that means going forward, I would agree with you that that is far from clear and there's very obviously some bumpiness ahead, not least because of the difficult relationship between the brothers. Hillary, I mean, it did prompt, as we knew it would, thousands of words of what does this mean by many of us, myself and you included. Do you think are we reading too much into one meeting at High Grove or what did you take from it? I think what Catherine said about the line between public and private is a very interesting one because that's a line that Harry and Megan seemed to find very hard to draw. And I think this is probably at the heart or one of the issues at the heart of the whole problem. the total breakdown of trust and it's all very well, Charles naturally wanting to see his grandchildren and his son.

But then if it ends up in the public realm in America or, you know, sources close to the couple are immediately giving interviews to the BBC or to a supermarket tabloid, then that's very problematic going forward for a family that, you know, intensely guards their privacy. And you can see why, because so much of their lives are laid bare. We haven't had that yet, which I think is interesting. We have previously, when the King announced his cancer diagnosis in 2024, Harry came over for literally less than 24 hours to see his father for around half an hour. And very soon afterwards was giving an interview to an American network saying, I saw my father. I hope the illness brings us together. And there was discomfort at the Palace and within the Royal Family that, you know, he was even referring to it.

What was fascinating about the announcement that they'd met was that Buckingham Palace told us after it happened was very, was very clear in saying there are no photos, we'll be giving no more details, and so far nothing has come out. The interesting contrast of that was that we know that Harry and Megan and the children stayed with Charles Spencer, his uncle, Diana's brother, at Allthrop. And soon after they were staying, we saw photos on Megan's Instagram of their lovely time there, photographs of the back of the children looking as if they were holding flowers, possibly to take to lie on Diana's grave, a very different.

approach. But so far Harry and Megan have abided by the palace's terms of nothing about their meeting. Do you think that's notable? Does it signify that they know the rules if they want it to happen again? Well, I think what will be interesting is whether or not they're going to be able to continue to resist publicising whatever was said at the meeting or, you know, who knows if there was a family photo taken of the king and queen with his grandchildren. You know, once they've got something else to promote, whether I don't know, Harry writes a new book or Megan writes a book. or there's more jam for sale or whatever. You know, their connections to the royal family

are their big calling card and they need to capitalize on that. You know, the further away in years they get from being working royals, then the more that star fades and they need to burnish it with continued contact. And I think maybe part of that was wanting to stay at Buckingham Palace.

Well, the Buckingham Palace thing is really interesting, isn't it? Because we were told, when Harry arrived in London, we got this extraordinary briefing from his camp saying, by the way, he's going to be staying in Buckingham Palace. Within minutes, Buckingham Palace was saying that is not happening.

He's not staying at Buckingham Palace. He missed the deadline. And then what came out afterwards was actually it wasn't so much about the deadlines of when he said he could or couldn't stay. It was more the constitutional nervousness around them predicting, rightly, in the end. But whichever way the legal case went against Associated, he would make some sort of huge statement, which he did. And they didn't want that happening from behind palace walls. But we're now hearing that that often. for a combination has been extended to him again for the next visit, and he's likely to take that up.

Do you think that's significant, where he stays, whether he stays on, you know, royal soil or not? I think it's significant, but I really need to go back on the discussion about communications because I think there's a really key point here. You talked about them not being working royals. They're not working royals. They have to make a living. We've had the word the rules used. there are ways in which the palace tends to prefer to do communications, as we all know. And it's part of balancing this extraordinarily bizarre situation where they are the institution. So they do need to find some way of having a private life. Harry and Megan actually aren't bound by those rules.

What they are bound by is these family ties, these very difficult family ties. And so the navigation of that, particularly, you know, I think you saw exactly, as you say, in that decision to rescind the Buckingham Palace offer, possibly because of the proximity of that judgment, you see that there is never a kind of clear or level playing field. I'm not here to defend or criticize either approach, but I'm saying we're discussing them as if they were like for like and they're not. Harry and Megan have the right to say whatever they want, whenever they want. If they do, there will be consequences in terms of the relationships that they have with other members of the family. I mean, one of the things in researching my latest book, but also doing the child's biography that I was very aware of is that there's actually a very long history of royals being deeply indiscreet and confessional. You know, Victoria is a two-time author and would have been more and would have said a lot more of her children hadn't censored it. And also in modern history, I mean, I think Diana's Andrew Morton book, Fergie's written a couple of books. Harry's... A couple. Fergie has written an entire library. What do you make of sort of over the years, the sort of level of confessionals we've had from members of the Royal Family working or not? Well, I think what Catherine said about, you know, Harry and Megan have a right to, you know, speak their truth, as they would put

it, is absolutely right. And they need to earn a living. But at what point does doing their become cashing in. I mean, my knowledge of the history of it all going back is not great, but the fact that all of this is played out so much on an almost hour by hour basis, he says, she says, it's a bad look for everybody. And I think William is wise to an extent not to get involved with it. Not to engage in it. Well, exactly. On that point, I mean, William, we do have a lot of backwards and forwards between Buckingham Palace and Team Sussex in the sort of, you know, we had extreme briefing ward that very week. What we, never see and haven't really seen at all in the last few years, despite everything that's

come out from Netflix documentaries, from Spare, all the detail in the books, you know, Harry's book about the rouse with his brother, the physical rouse. He had the allegation that William pushed him. We have not had any, on the record, response from William at any point. And actually, you know, around the time of Spare being published and the Netflix documentary coming out during those few months, certainly, you know, I was going to. getting a gist of what William was feeling about it. But since then, he's very much dialed that down and taken the approach that actually, I don't really want to engage in this. I don't really want to engage in the backwards and forwards of it. I think for me, that's always signified that

he's becoming more and more detached from the drama of it all. I think no less detached from the hurt and pain of the estrangement with a brother, but a feeling that it's not worth his while and it's not a good look for the future of which direction he's going in to engage in that. Well, they do do things differently. Often you will see their friends quoted, but very rarely by name. I mean, one of the astonishing things about them is also how tight the circle of real friends is, which means that when you see those quotes from friends, you know that these are very likely permitted quotes. It's a way of getting a message out without speaking directly. I'm just saying one of the things that I've tried very hard to do over the years is look at them separately rather than always in this sort of endless pitting of particularly the women against each other.

And I think Kate is, or Catherine, I should call her now, is. She's called Kate too. Kate's fine. It's one of these things where she really understands the playing of the long game as being the way of doing royal communications that is incredibly effective. and that sense that the monarchy itself is the real star of the show. But it is also that way that they, she and William, are actually being, I think, quietly quite radical in the way they use communication. So all that use of the kind of soft focus, Instagram videos, you know, they're finding ways to be seen or to express themselves, but in very, very controlled ways. And yet the silence they are, but the silence on the Harry issue seems to be serving them both very well, particularly William, because every time we see a U-Gov poll done or a popularity poll done on the royal family, and we've just had one quite recently, William is almost always at the top, here and abroad actually, particularly in America.

He's very popular in America. And that not engaging with the Harry Psycho Drama seems to be serving him well. Why do you think that is? Well, because I think so much of the Harry Psycho Drama has been really a little bit tawdry in the spilling in family secrets and he punched me and I punched him and, you know, his wife was broken. And the dog bowl was broken and his wife was rude to mine. And it's all a bit, you know, soap opera. And I get the impression that William is possibly very good at just compartmentalizing things. And, you know, he's looking forward with his wife and his family to one day being king. And the psychodrama of the Sussex is who there is an argument. they've already earned several very good livings many times over and they don't need to carry on doing it. But, you know, I mean, they got 100 million from Netflix, 20 million for spare. They're not worried about the cost of living crisis in Montecito. Let's put it that way. One of the things that I've always gleaned from people very close to William is that it's not just what we learned from the documentaries and the book.

It's not just the barbs that came. It's not just the depictions of, you know, previously. very private family scenarios and conversations and arguments and fallings out that has hurt William. It is also that decision by Harry to leave, to step away from official royal life, to make a new life for himself in America, which of course he's fully entitled to do, to escape the royal way of life because of the extra pressure that that puts on William, Catherine, and particularly his children. So William's hope had always been, of course, you know, they were raised to be brothers in arms. William would have Harry as his wingman, you know, all the way up to the top job

and when he was doing the top job to sort of share the load. And without him and without his family, there is so much more focus on those children in terms of their roles going forward. And I've always been told that is the thing that William will find impossible to forgive. That's really why he can never forgive. Yeah. And I think that is an additional layer of her that I think is going to make it hard for the brothers to ever come together again. I mean, I think I would take issue with the term psychodrama, particularly because of this. They had an incredibly traumatic series of events happen. Having been brought up, you know, one of the things I do know, I christened that whole

environment they were brought up in Planet Windsor because it's so peculiar and it's alienating in so many different ways. Very hard for them to have relationships with anybody, any normal relationships. And then to lose the mother the way they did. All of that, very, very difficult. So they are both living with trauma. But also, like you talked about Williams' feelings about this, and I completely believe you that that is what people close to him are saying.

And I think that those feelings are absolutely understandable because the loss of Harry and Megan, which a lot of the coverage makes it seem like they were always more of a liability than a loss. But actually, the ranks of working royals are so thin. now. You know, this means an incredible burden on the Waleses and their children. They are a loss. But you see that when they come back and you see that when Harry comes back. He is positively received wherever he goes. He lights up a room when he does an event with children that he has that star quality and that is undoubtedly a big loss to the King and the wider

or family, including William. Coming up, the King can probably rebuild his relationship with Harry if it can be done behind closed doors, Camilla will be the key to that. I think if she smells a rat, then she'll probably shut the door on any future communication. I mean, to bring it back home again, the King is at Balmoral over the summer hosting most of his family, the absence of Harry and Meghan and, of course, the former Prince Andrew, who we don't think is going to be there. You've written a biography of the king. You spent time with him. You've shadowed him for a bit. You've switched a lot of people close to him. I've always been interested in the approach that the king has taken to Harry.

It has always made clear by people very close to him that while he might disapprove of quite a lot of the things that Harry has said and done in the last few years, particularly the attacks on his wife, Camilla, it's always made very clear by his friends and sources close to the king that he has not shut the door. The door to Harry remains ajar, so to speak. What do you think it is about that relationship, obviously beyond just the father and son dynamic that, you know, people say he loves a son very much. He's a very forgiving man. But he's also the head of an institution that has quite clear rules on, you know, once you do that kind

of thing, the door is very often shut. I'm thinking of things like Diana was pretty shut out after she took a certain view of sort of spilling the beans. But with Harry, it's a very different approach. It is, although I have to say with Charles, of course, Dimbledby, he spoke to Dimbledby. He did. He's the one who admitted adultery on television and in a book. I do think that some of these rules are not hard and fast, that inevitably they're people as well as an institution. So it has to be adapted. He and Harry have always had a visibly kind of sparky relationship.

And one of the things about Charles that I became very aware of, and it's also Camilla's huge attraction for him, is that he likes warm, spontaneous people. The atmosphere on planet Windsor, as you know, can be very very much. very chilly, very formal, very constrained. And he is a man who actually likes to have fun. He's funny, actually, the king. He's very funny. Yeah, Harry's very funny.

You know, Camilla is, you know, tells some of the filthiest jokes you've ever heard. And so it's a thing about family, but it's also a thing about personality. William, as you know, is somebody who keeps a much tighter rain on himself anyway. He is funny, though. No, I've seen it. I think that's something about William here. It doesn't come across so much on engagements, but when he's off duty. That's why the Eugene Levy thing was, you saw it there.

Do you think, Hillary, I mean, when you write your very well-observed, highly entertaining pieces about the royal family and the family drama as it plays out, do you think it matters that the king, the heir and the spare are not all united, that the king possibly is rebuilding a little bit of a relationship with Harry? but it's unlikely to be, you know, royal reconciliation between the brothers. Does that matter in this day and age? I think it's a shame, but I don't think it necessarily matters. I mean, blood is thicker than water.

I'm sure that the king can probably rebuild his relationship with Harry if Harry and his family keep their mouths shut, if it can be done behind closed doors. And I think probably Camilla will be the key to that. I think if she smells a rat, then she'll probably shut the door on any future communication. But does it matter? I mean, they're the royal family.

Yes, in an ideal world, they're supposed to be a cohesive force for the nation around which we can all gather. But, you know, that ship sailed with Megxit. It has, and that ship has sailed since the departure of Andrew as well. It's been a long time since we've seen the Buckingham Palace balcony full of unity. Exactly. It's looking a bit Spartan on that balcony.

But, I mean, I absolutely take your point that an awful lot falls on William and his young. family, which I suppose is all the more reason why you so keen to ring fence them at the moment whilst they're still young. Catherine, you've written this book about royal women and you touched on, you know, Camilla will play a hand and everything. And she certainly has. And I thought it was completely fascinating that the palace let it be known that she was at Highgrove for that reunion because Camilla spends very little time at High Grove. Weekends come, she goes off to Ray Mill, her private home in Wiltshire, without the footman, without the servants. Cooks over the Argo for her grandchildren and kicks her shoes off.

Kicks her shoe off, has a glass of wine with her dogs. Charles goes to Highgrove with all the women, with the flummery, all of that. That's not really her vibe. But she was there at High Grove for that meeting. I bet she was. Someone very close to the couple said to me, oh, to have been a fly on the Hydrangeer, because she would have wanted to be there as a witness as to what was and wasn't said.

How important a role do you think the women, Camilla and Catherine and Megan, are playing in this reunion of swords? Not just in the reunion, but in the monarchy. One of the counterintuitive things is after years and years of the Queen, you know, as we know. Queen Elizabeth II. Yes, longest reign ever. You then get to a point where you have a king on the throne.

You have his heir is male and his heir's heir is male. And yet women are crucial to the future of the monarchy. and I find that such an interesting situation, especially because if you look back in history, as of course I did in the book, there is this absolute repeating pattern of royal women being pitted against each other and often attached to culture wars and things that they may or may not have anything to do with. But yet the favourite monarchs, if you look at any of the opinion polls, the favourite monarchs of all time, it's the women who dominate. If you look at the moment who the kind of real stalwarts and of the monarchy are, you know, Camilla, nobody, I mean, that's the most extraordinary arc from a kind of public enemy to somebody who was doing all that work when both Charles and Catherine were away having medical treatment. Yeah, she was front and centre sort of leading the family. Yeah. And Kate or Catherine is the only sort of real rock star at the moment. You know, William, I agree with you. He's funny. But people don't respond to him in the same way. And he is kind of quite constrained in his public persona.

And the children are still way too young to be. You know, so there is this demographic gap in the family as well. The interesting thing about Catherine is, do you remember Hillary that that scene at Prince Phillips funeral where the royal family, came out of St George's Chapel and Catherine brought Harry alongside and started chatting to both Harry and William and then just stood back and she let them walk up the hill back to the castle talking to each other

it was a masterpiece of choreography to get the brothers talking to each other she clearly at that point seemed to be very keen for a reconciliation of sorts we don't really hear so much or see so much of that anymore but don't forget she also after the old queen died they did that walkabout together, the four of them,

which she later let it be known, was I think the quote was the hardest thing she'd ever done. She didn't enjoy it, yeah. So I think, yes, absolutely she was probably keen for a time to. I mean, before Harry was married, you know, the three of them were very tight-knit. They launched their first, you know, the heads together, the mental health campaign.

There was a photo of the three of them, her and William and Harry, in their matching headbands. They were a very tight little band. And I would imagine, She missed that and hoped to recreate it when Harry finally got a girlfriend. I mean, she famously gave him a grow your own girlfriend kit for Christmas one year during his fallow years. But equally, I don't think Kate got where she is today by not having, you know, a glint of steel.

I think she's got more than a glint of steel. You know, and ditto Camilla. And again, like William, I would think that there's a point where she just thought enough. This is a distraction. I'm the Princess of Wales. I'm going to be the queen one day, rise above it. She's also, of course, been the very famous line in the statement from Elizabeth II is attributed to her.

Some recollections may vary. I think everyone in the royal family is claiming at least a word of that. And half of the courtiers. And so courtiers too. I mean, this is a band word, but it's become iconic that statement, hasn't it? Some recollections may vary after their account in the Oakford interview. Which does suggest certainly she has always been more than a, passenger. I mean, the women are often, you know, far more impressive than they're giving

credit for. I mean, on that strategy of restraint and silence, I've written it a lot over the past couple of years, particularly in the run up to the last couple of visits. Harry's team have let it be known that he is very keen to start spending more time in the UK, bringing his family when he can. I think we will start to see him here more and more. We know he's coming back in September. We've just had him here last month. If he does pursue that strategy of. of spending more time here, coming back every few months. Do you think William's strategy of maintaining sort of a dignified silence is that, can he keep doing that? Can he just stay disengaged or does he need to change tax?

I think it depends how far Harry pushes it. I mean, I think Harry is probably slightly conflicted in that, you know, things like the well-child event that he's coming over for next month are what he was born and raised to do. And he is, as we know, absolutely excellent at it. I think the crunch point will probably be Invictus next year. Because with that being in Birmingham, I mean, Harry's already said that he would like the king to be there. And it's a really tricky one, you know. I mean, Invictus is Harry's crowning glory. It's for wounded ex-serviceman.

The king is head of the armed forces. The Prince of Wales will one day be head of the armed forces. And if they are seen to snub in Victors, it will be very difficult for them. I don't know how they spin that. And equally, if they go, then... What does that mean? What does that mean and what hay will be made with it in Montecito? What do you think?

Do you think William will sort of continue a period of quiet when it comes to his brother? I mean, at the centre of this is, you know, I keep talking about that trauma, but that's really a key issue there. You know, I think people have been quite quick to dismiss Spare as a historical document, as if historical documents were ever things that one could have. trust. Anybody's account of anything is going to be something to interrogate rather than take wholesale. But those clashes between the brothers tell me if this is not your understanding, but I don't think that there is much doubt that there is a great deal of passion and fury between them. And it's very, very hard to move away from that, even if you were private

individuals. And trying to do this in the public eye is almost impossible. So I, think there are two questions. One is what William's ideal strategy would be, but the other is whether he's capable of following it in order to have some kind of detente. It would be better for the institution. As, you know, I think you made the point, the absolutely correct point, that the monarchy is supposed to unify, not divide, but to find some level of detent where they were kind of semi-detached royals or even where the family could meet in a unified way would clearly be good for the monarchy. And one of the things that always amuses me about a sort of the public discourse around this is that there is this notion that to chase them away would be the best thing

for the monarchy. It absolutely wouldn't. Part of the damage that's been done is younger people are turned off by the monarchy in ways that they weren't before. And populations of colour very much had their hopes raised by the advent of Megan and then had them dashed. And so we know for the monarchy that a family at peace with itself would be the best possible thing. They're certainly difficult. The family drama will continue to roll on.

Let's see whether the king can continue to build that relationship in private. it. Let's see whether William continues his strategy of silence. And if that serves him well, watch this space. That's all from us this week. A very big thank you to Hillary Rose and to Catherine Mayor for joining us this week. Now, if you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to like, rate and share it wherever you get your podcast. It really helps others discover the show. And don't forget, you can watch full episodes as well as Royal News and analysis from across the times on YouTube. to search for the Times Royals channel. Kate and I'll be back next week

where we'll be joined by the Royal correspondent Simon Weiger to discuss the four wives of Windsor, Diana, Camilla, Catherine and Megan. You won't want to miss that episode. Until then, thanks for joining us on the Royals and see you next week.