The Royals with Roya and Kate - Catherine, Meghan, Camilla, Diana — the price of marrying a prince

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Diana, Camilla, Catherine and Meghan each made the life-changing choice to marry into the House of Windsor. On the surface, it looks like a fairy tale. But what is the true cost of becoming a royal wife? And why have some adapted to life behind palace walls more easily than others?Kate Mansey and Roya Nikkhah are joined by Simon Vigar, royal correspondent for 5 News and author of the new book, The Four Wives of Windsor, to examine the sacrifices, scrutiny and rivalries that come with marrying a prince.Why did Diana’s star power become a threat? How did Camilla transform her public image? And why did Meghan’s time in the institution unravel so quickly? They also discuss the importance of love, laughter, and why playing the long game in the royal family matters most.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to press follow at the top of your podcast app.What do you think: which royal wife adapted best to life inside the House of Windsor? Get in touch: [e-mail]’s book, The Four Wives of Windsor: Rivalries, Influence and the True Power Behind the Crown, is available now. You can buy a copy from The Times Bookshop, with a special discount for Times+ members.Image: GettyProducer: Robert Wallace, Shabnam GrewalVideo Producer: Eve ChadbournExecutive Producer: Priyanka DeladiaRead more: How Queen Camilla became the boldest royal of the bunch Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals, the podcast, where we discuss what happens behind palace walls and why it matters. I'm Kate Manzi. And I'm Roya Nicar. Diana, Camilla, Catherine and Megan, for very different women connected by one life-changing choice to marry into the House of Windsor. On paper, it sounds like the ultimate fairy tale, but in reality it's the first. day of an extraordinary, highly scrutinised new job. You gain status, influence and a global public platform. But in return, you surrender a lot of your privacy, independence, and often control over your identity. So what is the price of marrying a prince? Who would choose to do it? And when is

star power an asset? And when does it become a threat? While joining us to explore those questions is Simon Weigar, Royal Correspondent for Five News, and author of the new book, The Four Wives of Windsor, Rivalries, Influence, and the True Power Behind the Crown. Welcome, Simon. Thank you very much for having me. Great to have you back, Simon. And what a read this is. You like to?

Lots of nuggets in there. Lots of nuggets. The first time we've had the kind of book of the four women who've married in. Now, we know you from the beat. Yeah. But you've been covering the Royal Beat for two decades. Two decades as a royal correspondent, yeah, for the first. Five News. And in that time, been all around the world, travelling with the royal family, what

was it that made you want to focus in your book on the women who've married into it? People who weren't born royal, but through marriage have become part of the Windsor family. I think they're the most interesting ones, and you covered it in your introduction there. I mean, what sort of person does it? How long do they have to decide whether they're going to go in or not? Some have weeks, some have years. And I've thought for a while, it's an idea I've been kicking around for a while, that it's the outsiders who come in who change it deliberately or not. And, you know, all four of those women have changed or will change the royal family. They're very interesting.

They're very different characters. And this is the first time it's a sort of comparative study of the four of them. You've covered them at close quarters, haven't you? So what do you think ties them beyond just having married into the family? Do you think there are similarities between them the way they've come about their job? Or perhaps it was the differences that really stood out when you're researching it? Diana was so young when she got engaged. She was only 19 years old. You know, Megan was late 30s when she got married. So completely different life experiences. I mean, they're all strong characters despite some public appearances. You know, one person said to me about Catherine, no, she's no wallflower. Once she decided to, she was going to go for it and she had years to decide, as we know, she really bought into it and certainly makes her views known behind the scenes. So they're all strong, influential women. And, Love, obviously, is a key thing here.

You know, all of the men... Whatever that means. Except for the first case, yeah. Although I think they loved each other, but in love, you know, that was a different matter between Charles and Diana. But, you know, we've seen William and Charles and Harry. I mean, visibly relax when their partner is nearby. It's a very lonely job.

Elizabeth II said she couldn't have done it without Philip. So, you know, the love and laughter is really important. They make each other laugh. Charles and Diana didn't, but the other three. I mean, we talked in the intro about royal weddings are perhaps the most high-profile public symbol of the union between these women and who they've married. They are huge occasions of national celebration. They're watched by millions around the world. It all looks wonderful when we see, you know, the dresses, the jewels, the carriages.

But we know that the stories go in a very different way. And Diana particular, I think, gave up, she was someone who was an aristocrat. So, you know, people thought she was used to that well, but she gave up so much of her, not anonymity, but privacy. What is it, do you think? What are the biggest sacrifices that women make when they marry into the royal family? Well, Diana's memory of her wedding day was not a happy one. And in fact, when you read Harry's memoir, spare, you know, they felt the whole thing was like a reality show. The other two weddings were happier, happier.

affairs. Yeah, they give up an awful lot. I mean, Camilla obviously had decades leading up to that moment. Diana had weeks. Megan had weeks until, you know, the romance went into, well, after the second date, pretty much, they decided that this was game on. And Catherine, you know, had years to decide. She obviously could have had a career in photography. We know that. Despite recent incidents with Photoshop, Megan had a very successful career as an actress. She gave that up. Rumors about her maybe going back to acting, but I'll believe it when I see it. Obviously, this is a different situation for Camilla completely because it was the second marriage. And Diana, Diana had a sense of destiny.

I mean, she knew Charles in her childhood, but actually it was her big sister, Sarah, who went out with him. Huge age gap between Diana and Charles. But she definitely had this premonition about Prince Charming or something. And, you know, within a few weeks, she was engaged to him. Contrast that with Kate who lived with William, which was at the time what a lot of couples do. But for the Windsors, it felt like a kind of step change, a very modern way of doing it. Yeah, I mean that... And they were largely left alone.

Yes, I mean, the British media perhaps doesn't get the credit it deserves on that one. But yeah, I mean, the idea of living in sin, as it was once called, is a major change to the royal family. And, you know, one that Charles couldn't do in the 70s when he was a young man. I mean, the thought of it would have made Queen Victoria blow a gasket. But, you know, that they were able to live at St Andrews or near St Andrews. They were able to live on Anglesey and have a normal relationship or as close to normal as you can get. What do you think it is about these four women that some of them have found it easier to adjust to marrying into an organisation that is both a family, the royal family and the institution? I think my sort of feeling is that Camilla and Catherine have understood and adapted to that, perhaps better than Diana and Megan did.

Diana used to call the courtiers the men in grey suits. It's something that we heard Harry later on repeat. And we know that that was sort of Megan's feeling too. Do you think Royal Brides really can understand before they join the firm the difference between the Royal Family and the Institution, which is constantly so clearly kind of set out by courtiers when you speak to people that there are two very separate things? Yeah, well, I think you've hit the nail on the head, but Camilla and Catherine had years. I mean, Camilla had decades to work it out. And Catherine is really socially mobile, one, I suppose, through schooling and friendship groups. Lady Diana Spencer was an aristocrat, as you say.

But Megan's relationship with Harry went into warp speed, and obviously that caused friction, he says, within the family. Megan and Diana both say they weren't supported by an institution, as we've reported, you know, recollections may very, on that one, help was offered, help was rebuffed, people say, but that's not how Harry and Megan remember it. But time is the key thing. Catherine had years to decide if she was going to go for it. And once she decided, she was all in. And I think the public kind of look at those big fairy tale moments, a big weddings, a big public spectacle beamed around the world and think it's the kind of culmination of a courtship. But in so many ways, it's the first day of the new job, isn't it? Because you're not just marrying the prince. You're taking on a lifetime

commitment. All that baggage that comes with it. You talk about some of the wives marrying in, not feeling like they've been supported. Do you think that's changed? Do you think Catherine had a lot more support coming into it? Because, you know, we've spoken to Jamie Lather Pinkerton, who was there at the time of the wedding, and was really trying to smooth everything over and help her feel as welcome as possible.

How does that compare, do you think, behind the scenes, to what previous brides Diana had? Was she just thrown into it? Well, yeah, she was. I mean, so two anecdotes on that one. Catherine, first royal tour was to Canada a few months after their wedding in 2011. Huge Canada Day celebration, blazing hot day. And I remember it really well. I remember it too.

It was a fantastic day. And I was told by somebody who was there that William was not expecting that size of crowd and it freaked him out a bit. But she was the one on stage who helped calm him down and reassure him. And they, off in the wings of the stage, these officials were looking at each other saying, she's got this. I mean, not that it was in any doubt, but she's got this. Megan, first royal tour after the wedding to Australia, New Zealand. Remember that trip?

You were there. I mean, it's the first chapter in the book. I'm the print rotor reporter. You're the broadcast writer. Rui, my cameraman, was the close-up TV camera for that event. So for people who don't know, that's when you've got a limited number of reporters and channels who are allowed to go right into the effort. into the engagement and report back, essentially,

so that there's not huge crowds. So there you are. You're both in the marketplace. Megan was due to meet several different groups of several different women who were either sort of female entrepreneurs or had small businesses in this market. And she was very into kind of female empowerment and women raising themselves up.

So we thought this would be an ideal engagement, didn't we? We thought it would be show Megan to her strength. Yeah, I was standing next to the ladyhood made these handmade fans with reeds with Harry and Megan on them. She was standing there for hours waiting to meet Megan. So it was hot. It wasn't chaotic. There was a clear route through.

It was meant to last about half an hour. And then it just went into overdrive all of a sudden. My cameraman was being pushed out, back out the way to get out of the way. We caught her saying something to one of her advisors, which left her with a look of shock. There were palace officials in tier. There was one in tears afterwards. And they were spinning about three different lines about where it was her health. It was a security scare.

It was too crowded. It was too crowded. But there was definitely a UN women presence there, this agency that Megan had once worked with and apparently reportedly fell out with. Now, that is denied by Team Sussex. They deny that she didn't like the UN branding there. And, you know, she had demanded that there was no United Nations branding at this event.

But she pulled the engagement, if you like. She said something. She said something and then everything went into overdrive. The engagement was suddenly cut very short, wasn't it? The lady I was standing next to with the two fans, you know, she just zooms past all of those people in the lineup who had been hanging around for hours. Very disappointed. So something strange happened there. But their line, the Sussex line is it was a security scare.

That's what they say. Royer. I would second everything you said. I remember. I mean, I was standing with Samantha Cohen, who, of course, was the late Queen's deputy of private secretary who was sent to go and be Harry and Megan's private secretary to help look after them for those early stages of their marriage. And, you know, she had a very difficult time in that role. And I remember standing with her and her look of shock as this was unfolding. And on that whole trip, you got a sense of how I think difficult Megan was finding that role.

Well, in the interview with Oprah Winfrey, which was quite extraordinary, wasn't it? They came later. Megan said, unlike what you see in the movies, there's no class on how to speak, how to cross your legs, how to be royal. So she essentially there was saying she hadn't had any training in how to be a royal. We know from her program on Netflix with Harry that she didn't know how to curtsy and found it quite shocking that she was expected to curtsy to his grandmother, the queen. And Palisansiders responding to that has said that in fact she did receive considerable support. So why do you think she felt so unprepared and unprotected?

I don't know. I mean, the straight answer is I don't know because certainly people who working at Kensington Palace and in the wider institution felt that the help was always on offer and rebuffed or ignored. I mean, Megan brought with her and Diana developed

and Catherine developed and Camilla is Queen so she has her own star power. Megan was an actress in America, people, she had a presence on television, on suits. Diana became probably the most famous woman in the world during her time as the Princess of Wales. I mean, she was a beyond blockbuster. Those are things that having brought into the royal family

or developed in their roles in the royal family, and Catherine now, I would say, is one of the most recognizable women in the world. You know, she's very glamorous, very beautiful, very poised, very good at her job. You would assume that royal wives having that level of star power is always going to be a good thing. But it's not always a good thing, is it? I mean, it's an asset, but it also can be a curse for women that marry into the royal family. Yeah, I don't think they're after stars, really.

And certainly in the 1980s, Charles balked and bristled when the attention very quickly shifted onto his new, glamorous young wife. And it was uncomfortable for her as well. I mean, there were pictures of her in Sydney in tears at the size of the crowd. But, you know, famously on walkabouts when one went down one side of the street and the other went the other, there would be groans on the side of the street where they realized they were getting Charles. And he didn't like him. I think he's much more relaxed about it now. And obviously he loves Camilla being centre stage.

William and Catherine on their tour of Australia, New Zealand in 2014, exactly the same thing happened. William laughed. William was in stitches. He loved it. You saw him go down to his side of the road and people going, because they wanted Catherine and he was in stitches. It is interesting, isn't it, how between wives, first and second wife,

because Camilla definitely, you know, she is queen, so she is, you're pretty up there. But she doesn't have the same kind of global draw that Diana did. But Charles is much more comfortable with that. And people who know Camilla and her friends will say she's always very happy being by his side or a bit as the support act. Whereas I think Catherine is not a support act. And I don't mean she's someone who sort of gobbles up all the stuff. But they're very much a kind of equal partnership. And I think that's interesting.

I think Megan and Harry probably both sort of on a par. But they were very popular here at the beginning of their marriage. Oh, yeah. Do you think her popularity and her sort of star power created ripples within the institution? Maybe. Well, maybe. I don't think Catherine and Meghan were ever going to be best buddies. No.

I mean, clearly that went. Not much common ground. That went wrong. And I think that's just a culture clash thing of American overfamiliarity and British Reserve. But obviously, it didn't go very well, very early on. But yeah, Harry and Megan should have been, could have been blockbuster for the royal family. And the way it ended so quickly, 18 months, was so avoidable and so sad, but egos got in the way. And it just went downhill from there, ending up with the Sandringham Summit.

Which sort of makes you sort of wonder whether the institution has not really got better at handling stars marrying into it or characters becoming stars. With Diana, they learn the lesson. Rushing somebody in is not a good idea. They learned the lesson that that lesson was applied to Catherine. And then it couldn't be applied with Megan because it just went into. overdrive so quickly. I mean, Harry says the only way he could protect her was by getting engaged and that's what they did. Coming up, can anything prepare you for what it's like once you no, not even if you're a Hollywood name. Talking about them starting on the new job,

how much freedoms you think Megan and Catherine were given over the charities that they wanted to support, there was the type of work they wanted to. do because it felt that Catherine was quite happy to take it step by step, to play it as a long game. But Megan came in with a lot of ideas. We've, you know, had reports of 5am emails to Palace stuff. You know, she was fizzing with energy when she started. How much freedom do you think those women really had when they came into the institution? I think the only restriction on Catherine was, and they're all aligned on this, as the royal household say,

is just not to take on too much or to try and cover everything and end up like Elizabeth and Philip with hundreds of patronages and you can't possibly keep everybody happy. The one thing Catherine didn't enjoy and has been coached on is public speaking and she's obviously a lot better at that now than she was at the start when we saw her give her speech at the children's hospice in Ipswich. I think there was a great deal of freedom to do what you want to do. Early years obviously is something that she's going to make her mark on. That's what she wants to do. Somebody told me in the very early years with William and Catherine, I said, why isn't she doing any speeches on this particular tour? And they said, well, we're not going to rush our fences because they love a

horsey analogy. And they just let her take it gently. But in terms of which causes they take up, it feels very authentic to me, as with Camilla, with, you know, literacy and domestic violence and whatever. We talk about Camilla. Those charities and those patronages have really helped with her rehabilitation because at one point she was kind of villain number one wasn't she in the public mind and actually when we've been on tours in australia and elsewhere in canada even they still talk about diana over camilla and you know holding diana up on a pedestal but camilla certainly in this country has had a huge rehabilitation how did that come about you know from that picture at the ritz they came out there was the first time they were pictured together which seemed like a big

moment yeah i was there that night you were okay So take us through that. Time is a great healer, isn't it? So the footage of them coming out of the Ritz. And that was after her sister's 50th birthday. So that was 10 years after the same birthday party for the same woman where Diana confronted Camilla. But anyway, that's another story.

But at the Ritz, that footage of them coming out, you know, I don't know, there were like 50 photographers there, more. But they've been invited. They've been told. We were. Well, yeah, it wasn't an official engagement. It was set up by the palace, really, wasn't it? And on TV, we can't use that footage.

because there were so many flash bulbs going off. It's unusable. Oh, that's interesting. Because it would send people into shock, or some people into shock. So we have to slow it down or just use stills. But yeah, it was an incredible moment. So that's only two years after Diana died. And then five years before they got married.

So it was slow. But actually, if you look at the opinion polls, Charles and Camilla were rock bottom in the mid-90s after Diana died. But then actually it recovered through this coming P.O. our campaign. So in the Royal Family, you really have to play the long game. Absolutely. Yeah, they've been playing the long game. It is a long game. I suppose whether you're like your night. No retirement date. Well, look at Camilla's 179 now. I mean, how much of that rehabilitation do you think was down to Palace PR spin, if you like, and how much was down to

just Camilla herself, her natural sense of being quite likable. Let's say. Yeah, she is. And she is. And you see that in her interactions with people one to one or in small groups, how. you know, engaged people are and how she puts people at their ease. And her public speaking is come on leaps and bounds as well. The PR campaign was deliberate. It was slow. Harry's line is that, you know,

he was thrown under the bus in favour of good stories for Camilla. I think that's part of the reason for the rift between him and his father that Camilla, in Harry's book, Camilla is set up as the number one villain. She has stuck to her guns, though, Camilla. I mean, I remember doing a proclamation.

I was very fond of her just before the coronation, exploring this evolution of how did she go from being a toxic mistress to anointed queen, which is really what happened. You know, she was dubbed the most hated woman in Britain at a point during the 1990s and, you know, had photographers come up against her windows and where she lived. I mean, she was vilified. And that PR machine that we talk about at the palace, you know, when she was at Clarence's house and before she got married and then after she got married, it was highly effective. But I think it was very effective at letting the public see.

her as she is. I never got the sense watching her that she became something or someone different. I think it was just allowing the public to hear a little bit in a very gradual way with Camilla. Conscious of the fact that the public, lots of them weren't ready

for lots of her all at once. Letting them understand and see A, how happy she made Charles and B, how good she was at choosing things that might have strong resonance with the public, like domestic abuse and violence and literacy. And I think I was talking to one of her really good friends, Fiona Landstam for that

piece, who just said, I think actually at the end of the day, a lot of the public have come to warm to her, and not all of them. And Camilla knows she's divisive. Yeah. He's just been herself. Yeah. Charles made it clear. She was the one non-negotiable as far as his mother, Elizabeth II, finally got her head around that. So Camilla was in the royal box at the Golden Jubilee. So that's only three years out from finally getting married. It is generational. there are some people who will never forgive Charles and Camilla. I would say my generation and above and older, there will always be a significant number of people

who will never forgive them for what happened. But I think there obviously is a softening of attitude and Camilla's blamed less. What I think is interesting about her is that she is at ease. I'm always told by people close to her, she knows that and she's okay with it. She doesn't feel she needs to be loved by everyone, which I think some royal brides have been.

She has confidence as well. I mean, coming to the job so much later on, knowing who she was as a person, quite unlike Diana, and being very sort of naturally jolly and self-assured. And I remember speaking to someone at the palace who had worked on that kind of rehabilitation campaign for Camilla. Because, of course, at the time, we were told that she would only ever be Princess Consort when Charles became King and to calm public, calm the public down. And then, you know, the fact they said, essentially they had really good raw material to work with. essentially that she was self-assured, she was confident, she made Charles happy, she's quite jolly, people unlikable. She brought the fun back because it wasn't such a fun place when Charles was doing stuff on his own. What made you focus just on the women who married into the family?

Because you could have looked at other consorts and other people who've married in. You could have looked at Prince Philip, for example. Do you think it's harder for women marrying in than it is for Philip? And some of these frustrations he had, of course, when he married Princess Elizabeth as was. He became Elizabeth 2nd. He had to try to create a role for himself as Duke of Edinburgh. But do you think it's harder for the women? Yeah, well, it's different.

They are more scrutinized than, you know, Philip wasn't scrutinized for every single different suit he wore. He had his issues as well, you know, having his family name, the Mountbatten Windsor hyphenated surname that we're now very familiar with. But, you know, that wasn't allowed with. his children and he said, I'm just a bloody amoeba. But he learnt, he learned to just get on with it. By the way, Camilla definitely saw him as a role model in how she does things and, you know, always, they're always supportive and so on. And back in the early days at Clarence House, you know, one courtier told me when I joined, I was told we don't do PR. And he was thinking, no, we definitely do PR. We're definitely going to do that. But of course it's much harder for them.

And just purely simply the clothes, they can't win. It seems to me they can't win because they get criticised if they wear High Street. They get criticised if they wear Ocature or whichever, you know, nationality designer they're wearing. Focusing on the four women was a decision just to narrow it down. But yeah, absolutely. You could go back to Queen Mother. You could go back to Prince Albert. You could go back to Wallace Simpson, you know, how they change the monarchy.

You've written about what you've seen, which is really interesting as well. Because you've been there. You've had a ringside seat. to all of these. Yeah, I was very fortunate, very early, as a very young radio reporter in London at Capital, I got to cover one of Diana's last engagements. And I know you project this aura onto people,

but she definitely had it. She had star power, didn't she? She really had to buy. Of the four women that you write about in the book, and obviously you've researched and you've been around them, you've observed them, is there, you know, two left to have stuck it out? Is there any kind of common thread

between those who stick it out? and those who go off and do different things fall to their own path? Well, time, the time Camilla and Catherine both had to, I mean, for Camilla, literally decades, to decide whether she wanted to take that on. For Diana, it was months, and arguably Megan, it was weeks.

And, you know, that's really hard for anybody to do. Do you think time and expectation versus reality inside the royal family, can anything prepare you for what it's like once you're not? Not even if you're a Hollywood name, you know. I mean, as you say, Megan was in suits. She was used to a level of scrutiny, but just not that level. She was.

And she was used to total PR control as well, which is another thing. No, nothing can prepare you for it, which is why the Camilla and Catherine's strategy is the best one. You know, time, just take your time and observe and talk to people behind the scenes, which they both did. And we've talked about kind of their public role, haven't we, in marrying into, marrying the job, marrying into the institution. But ultimately, it's a family. And these are people who, by and large, chosen to be together through love. How important do you think love is for those marriages to survive with all this?

Yeah, well, absolutely crucial. Because I don't sure I would choose to work with my husband, as much as I love him. It's quite a unique thing, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I mean, it seems... Both ways. It puts a strain on the relationship by having to work together. On the beneficial side, it does seem that Kate William, their love.

for one another does carry them through an awful lot. Yeah. And they go off and do their own thing and then come back together. And we see that in one day on a royal tour where Charles and Camilla maybe start a big event together, then go off and do different things and then come back at the end. Yeah, it would drive you spare if you were together the whole time, wouldn't it? But yeah, love obviously really important. Laughter, I can't stress that enough. You know, just seeing them laugh and relax when they're together is really important.

And Diana, you know, Diana and Charles, they hardly knew each other. He had huge pressure on him. He set his own deadline. The family had set this deadline. The media was, is this the one? Is this the one? Is this the one? So it was, I mean, was it ever going to work?

No. Just final thought, Simon. Of the four wives of Windsor that you've written about here, is there one that you admire above the others? Is there one that you think sort of has an ultimate star power beyond the others? Diana. Diana, it's a generational thing. I'm in my late 50s now, so I just about remember the royal wedding. I remember her at the sort of height of her powers. There is something, and I know we project this onto people, and, you know, she died young, but there is something heroic about Diana. The situation she found herself in how she then developed her role. And the tragedy, you know, I covered the funeral, I covered the inquest, the tragedy of what happened to her. And the tragedy of what happened to her. how avoidable it was what happened in those last few years, you know, if panorama hadn't happened, all sorts of things.

Wow, indeed. Well, Simon, it's a great book. Thank you very much for coming in to talk to us about it. It's well worth a read. The Four Wives of Windsor, rivalries, rivalries, influence and the real power behind the crown. Because they are, aren't they these women? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much.

So if you've enjoyed this conversation like we have, please like, rate and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It really does help others discover the show. And don't forget, you can also find us on YouTube for full episodes as well as Royal News and Analysis from Across the Times. Just search for the Times' Royals channel. As always, thank you for joining us on the Royals and we'll see you next week.