The Royals with Roya and Kate - Could Beatrice and Eugenie lose their royal titles?

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

Questions are being raised about Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie’s royal titles amid renewed attention on the monarchy following the Epstein files and the arrest of their father, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. Roya Nikkhah and Kate Mansey discuss the future of the York sisters within a slimmed-down monarchy, and whether the spotlight on their roles is unfair or an inevitable consequence.Do you think Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie should keep their royal titles? Get in touch: [e-mail]: Getty Producer: Robert WallaceExecutive Producer: Priyanka Deladia Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals, the podcast where we dig into what happens behind palace walls and why it matters. I'm Royneiko. And I'm Kate Mansi. So this week, we're zooming in onto princesses who sit in a very particular corner of the royal family. Yep, we're talking about Beatrice and Eugenie, who found themselves back in the headlines following the rest of their father, Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor. And like Andrew, they've been referenced hundreds of times in the early. Epstein files. And while there's no suggestion of wrongdoing by the York Sisters, it has inevitably raised some concerns. And some questions too, after the Times revealed that Beatrice

and Eugenie still have homes inside Royal Palaces because of a longstanding arrangement negotiated by Andrew. So is the scrutiny around Beatrice and Eugenie simply collateral damage? Or is there still more to come? And should the palace distance the York Sisters from the institution? Well, it's an interesting question. And you dug into it last week, Kate. You had an interesting story about the fact that Eugène and Beatrice both have a foothold in the Royal Household. Tell us more. So they both have royal homes, essentially, despite not being working members of the Royal Family.

Eugenie has a place called Ivy Cottage, which is a little three-bedroom cottage within the grounds of Kensington Palace. And Beatrice has an apartment at St. James's Palace. So you always know you're on to something with the palace when you say, I'm writing a story and they say, oh, this is old news. Everybody knows about this. Why are you writing about this again? But I think most people will be surprised to know that it was all orchestrated through a deal which was struck with Andrew, now disgraced, former prince, former Duke of York, when he was still in post. Why? Why did he want them specifically to have each?

Because they both have other homes, don't they? They usually lives in Portugal most of the time with Jack Brooks, my husband. Beatrice is in the Cotswold sometimes with her husband, Edomipeli-Mozzi. Yeah, they've got a huge place out in Oxfordshire where they live with their families. Why did Andrew specifically want them to keep these houses there? This is all part of Andrew's status, isn't it, arguably, that as part of the kind of bells and whistles of his royal role, which included, we know, the mansion at Royal Lodge and the deal that he had with the Crown, there was a separate deal to have his daughters in these boltholes and within the most exclusive

post codes you can imagine within royal palaces and that was all part of the status afforded to him as a prince of the realm as a duke and now of course he doesn't have any of that status and yet that deal is still running now what the palace won't say and we haven't yet been able to find out is how much the rent is. Because some part of the rent goes towards the sovereign grant, I was told. Then that means that the rent that's paid to have those places in Kensington Palace and in St James's Palace goes into a big pot of money, which helps to fund the official work of the royal family.

So that's all well and good. But it's not clear who is paying that money. And it seems to me that the deal originally was that Andrew would pay that rent. but we don't know how much it is. They're not even saying that it's market rent, which of course could be thousands of pounds a month. A similar kind of one-bedroom, two-bedroom place in St James's would be sort of 20 grand up to 20,000 pounds.

A month. A month. Yeah. And that's before you take into account the kind of the prestige of living within palace grounds. So we don't know whether Beatrice or usually are personally paying anything towards either of the rental on either of those properties. Or whether it's coming out of Andrews. money and where does Andrew get his money from? That's a very good question. We don't know the answers to

that apart from the fact that we know he does still maintain a kind of stipend, if you like, from his brother the king. And of course, he doesn't get any public money anymore because he's not a working member of the royal family, so he doesn't have any access to public funds. I think nevertheless, it's intriguing and interesting because this has been this big spotlight, hasn't it? The sort of swung round onto not just Andrew, but then casting. a light across all these other corners of the royal family. Did the princesses have anything to say about this story when you approach them in terms of the rent or anything?

No. No comment. No comment. They've not said anything about it. They're not engaging in that way at all. And neither is Sarah Ferguson, actually, who we haven't heard anything. It's been quite quiet. It's awful long time.

Do you think it's interesting? I mean, we know from all the coverage that we have done and still do, we know from the feedback we get from it, we know from how well it does, that the public are extremely interested in the live issue at the moment of Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, how that story has unfolded and where it's going to go and we don't quite know yet. Do you think the public, do you think they mind that Beatrice and usually have these sort of footholds in the Royal Households? Do you think that's something that kind of people are up in arms about or surprised about or do you think it cuts through? Well, some people might say they're members of the Royal Family, so why shouldn't they have a kind of

bolthole in the royal palaces. But given that the royal palaces are kind of basically there for the public good for the official work of the monarchy, is that a situation that people will be happy with? We found out, didn't we, with Royal Lodge? And you did a lot on that. And then, you know, the argument that was always given to you for a long time was he's got an unbreakable lease arrangement with the Crown estate. It can't be broken. It's an unbreakable contract. And when it came to it and his titles were stripped, it turns out that contract could be broken after rule and they can make and give it back. So it's funny that, isn't it, the power that the king has.

But what it has done, I think, is it's shone alight onto the princesses in a way in which which I don't think anybody, even at Christmas time, had expected. So we had all this talk, didn't we, about the fact they were coming to Christmas, the fact that they were going to be part of the family, the sins of the father shouldn't be visited on the daughters. And yet now, we've said their names were referenced hundreds of times in the episode. files. They've gone very quiet. They're not responding to any requests from the times about questions about their charities, about their living arrangements. I mean, we should say there's no

suggestion of wrongdoing. But, Roya, tell us about some of the revelations that have come out that perhaps have changed the, you know, the dial on the sisters. Well, when we saw Eugenie and Beatrice gather with the royal family at Sandringham, of course, was this big thing made that they weren't going to spend it with Andrew in his last Christmas at Royal Lodge. we didn't know then what has come out in more Epstein files and like you say there's no suggestion of wondering just from appearing in them but there were some emails that came out of those files which appear to suggest certain things

that I think have maybe surprised some people like what? Well there were emails in July 2009 which appeared to show that Sarah Ferguson had gone to visit Jeffrey Epstein in Palm Beach and Florida five days the dates were suggested five days after he was released from prison and had been convicted for soliciting prostitution from a minor. And he had pleaded guilty to that.

He had been in prison and then just five days later. The suggestion is Sarah Ferguson went with Beatrice and with Eugenie, who would have been 20 and 19 at the time. You look at that and think, that's interesting. Why would Sarah Ferguson and her daughters go and see Jeffrey Epstein just after he's come out of prison? We don't know that that definitely happened, but we haven't had a denial from Sarah Ferguson. There was another email the following year in 2010, which seemed to suggest that.

that Geoffrey Epstein had then asked Sarah Ferguson for the princesses to give tours of Buckingham Palace to some of his contacts. There was one email, according to the files, that said from Geoffrey Epstein, thank you, Sarah. Could one of your daughters show redacted name? Buckingham, thanks.

And Sarah replies, of course. Now, we don't know whether Biotrins usually actually did that, but the file suggests that the request came in from Jeffrey Epstein. And I think that speaks to the relationship between Sarah Ferguson and Jeffrey Epstein. We should say that none of these emails appear to come from Beatrice or usually. But I think, you know, the fact that has come out since Christmas, I think probably gives people at the palace,

and indeed I suspect some members of the royal family, pause for thought in terms of the situation going forwards with the princesses. And I suspect that's probably why, you know, they have probably gone quite quiet as well. That's interesting, isn't it? You point out their ages, they were 19 and 20, quite young, but, you know, young women, old enough to decide their own travel plans, presumably at that stage? It's problematic because what we have seen come out of the Epstein files is that, although there's no suggestion of one doing just by appearing in the Epstein files,

people who are in the Epstein files, it's difficult, isn't it? It's difficult for them. And I think it's going to, I suspect, down the line, depending on how this goes and how this develops, I think it'll probably shape what happens with them within their relationship. relationships with the royal family, how public they continue to be with the royal family. You know, we had the year before last, we had William hosting a Buckingham Palace garden party when the king was very ill with cancer and getting treatment and when Catherine was very ill and

getting treatment. And you had his cousins all around him. You had the princesses. Beatrice and Eugeneer, you had Zara, you had Peter Phillips, Mike Tyndall. It was very much a feeling that William wanted everyone around him. I'm not sure we would see that repeated again. It's hard to think that they will be brought back. in that way, isn't it? Well, similarly with Sarah Ferguson, of course, when Andrew had very much been kind of shoved to the outside and ostracized over his friendship with Epstein, Sarah Ferguson really was still back in the fold and the king invited her to need to a cancer reception at Buckingham Palace as recently as last May. Again, he was returning to duties after his own cancer treatment.

It was a big deal. It was. It was a huge event that Palace was trailing some personal words about his own illness that the king had delivered in a statement. And it felt like a big moment. And then there, you know, I turned around in the Buckingham Palace ballroom and there was Fergie. Obviously she had her own cancer battles, but it was such a sign that the king and queen were keeping her close, despite everything that had been thrown at Andrew. That has changed, of course. It's massively changed. It's massively changed not only with, I think, in terms of members of the royal family's perception, but public perception. As it, Andrews had his York title stripped, his prince, his dukedom, that's gone. It's had an impact on Fergie. It's had an

impact on the princesses. There was a story this week about Sarah Ferguson and the city of York and it looks like Sarah is potentially losing the freedom of the city of York. Tell me about that. Well, yeah, she was given the freedom of the city of York in 1987, the year after she married Andrew, the two of them went up to York in the north of England. Obviously, the city that gave them their title, Duke and Duchess of York, there were 200,000 people reports said at the time who'd filled the streets, there was a huge civic party for them,

and they were awarded the freedom of the city. So next week, councillors will sit on an extraordinary motion to decide whether or not to strip Sarah Ferguson of the freedom of the city of York. Now, we saw in 2022, the same council sat and decided to strip Andrew of the freedom of the city of York.

I mean, why does it make? It's all part of the kind of status. And what we've seen from the latest Epstein files is emails from Sarah Ferguson, which just show or appear to show at least and haven't been denied, her involvement with Epstein. She talks about him being a supreme friend. She talks about how close they are. We should say that Sarah Ferguson has always said she misjudged the relationship with Jeffrey Epstein

and deeply regrets the friendship. It has also had an impact on Eugenie and her work, because of course she is officially a director of House and Worth. She works in the art world. But she is also the co-founder of a charity, the anti-slavery collective, which is a charity she co-founded in order to raise awareness of

and tackle the issue of human trafficking, principally of women. Now, there used to be glitzy, black-tied gala's fundraising events. There used to be quite a lot on social media about it. She used to post things about it on Instagram. It's all gone very quiet, hasn't it? Well, she was co-founder of that, wasn't she, with her friend in 2017? And then she, of the back of that, became patron of anti-slavery international.

Now, earlier this month she stepped down, Eugenie stepped down from her role as patron of that charity. And they thanked her for all the hard work. But this is what we saw with Sarah Ferguson, charities kind of distancing themselves, or them having to distance themselves from charities. We saw it, didn't we, with Sarah Ferguson, and when she stepped down from a lot of the cancer charities

and various other charities that she was associated with. I mean, Fergie's gone very quiet, hasn't she? Where is she? A woman who's not known usually for being that quiet? Not been seen publicly. And we haven't seen Andrew publicly since his 66th birthday when he was photographed in the back of the car being driven away from the police station

after his arrest on suspicion of misconduct in public office, his release without charge under investigation, we have to say. And he's always consistently denied any wrongdoing. But we haven't seen Sarah Ferguson at all. Coming up is the York brand being phased out? The Epstein files, the boltholes and royal households that the princesses have, the anti-slavery collective charity seemingly winding down. Do we think this all adds up to something a bit bigger in terms of,

is the York brand being phased out? Is there something coming from on high where the palace is saying, we would really like to hear much and see much less of this? And what does it say about, you think, the royal response on the record or off the record that we're seeing in terms of how everyone's being treated off the House of York? Well, it's shifted, hasn't it? It's a kind of a mood change at the palace that they've kind of taken the temperature and they're sitting waiting to see what happens when it comes to the princesses. In October, when the king finally, decisively second time round, stripped all the titles, removed the prince title. The briefing that came from the palace was very clear.

in terms of the princesses. It was that their position would be wholly unaffected. Their position in the nine and succession, and their position more importantly, within the royal family, as blood princesses, as nieces of the king, as cousins of the future king,

wholly unaffected was the mood music. Blood princesses was the sort of phrase used, wasn't it? It doesn't feel like that anymore. It feels like sort of, you know, there's a lot of let's wait and see what happens, how's this going to play out? There's been a suggestion. We don't know whether it's actually,

or not that they perhaps won't be going to Royal Ascot this year that they've been uninvited. I'm not sure about that because invitations haven't even gone out for Royal Ascot. But there's a sense that events that they used to go to and be very welcome at, it'll be much more problematic. I mean, Sarah Ferguson was at Ascot last year, you know, always there with the girls in the last few years. You had an interesting meeting with Fergie and Bitris, didn't you? And tell me about that because she was there. And I think that's quite an interesting insight into how that whole thing like. It is because it was talks about talks.

So I'd gone to see Sarah Ferguson as a. arranged to talk about a possibility of doing an interview. To my great surprise, Princess Beatrice was there. And not just that, she wanted to sit in on the meeting too, which I was thrilled about. Great, let's do a kind of, are you going to be in the interview too? Oh, no, no. I'm just here to help. Mommy, okay.

She sat and she took notes. I thought it was fascinating how she interacted. She's super smart. She was kind of analyzing everything that Sarah Ferguson was saying and kind of clarifying because Fergier was saying, well, look, I want to come across as this, and I'd like to be known as this. And if we do it, I want it to be done like this. And I'd like you to talk about my work over here with this charity. And I'm taking it all in, as she's kind of hitting me with this kind of barrage of, you know, thoughts and ideas. And it was coming through Beatrice to her side.

You know, Fergie was opposite me. Beatrice was to the side. And she was sort of analyzing it and saying, look, you know, just to clarify, I think what, what Mommy's saying is, you know, she'd like to do, did it. And she was, she was very organized. She was very thoughtful and kind of processing her mother's thoughts in real time and acting as a kind of conduit. Now, that is interesting now, of course, because we wonder how close she was to any of the business deals that Sarah Ferguson or perhaps her father was doing at the time. Now, we know from people who worked on that infamous newsnight interview that the talks about talks, as journalists often call them, you know, where you have the preliminary chats with people about the possibility of doing an interview.

There's talks about talks that happened at the palace with Andrew, with Amanda Thirsk, his then private secretary and the news night team, Beatrice was there taking notes. So we've had a thought from one of our listeners here called Cheryl, and she's listening in from Florida. Hello, Cheryl. She has asked about the line of succession, Roya, and she said, with the information coming out, I don't see why there is an issue in removing them from the line of succession. Now, Roya, you've been looking into this. Tell us a bit about that.

Essentially, people have quite strong views on this because it goes to the heart of what we were talking about before should the sins of the fathers, despite those sins being currently denied, he visited on the princesses. A few weeks ago, I did a story with Gabriel Pogrand, and it was around just after the government had come out on the record, and shortly after Andrew's arrest on suspicion of misconducting public office, the government came out finally and said, we are now looking at legislation to remove Andrew from the line in succession. He remains eighth in line. It was the one thing that wasn't taken away from him last year.

But the background was, when we dug into a bit more, that government sources are saying this could take years because we don't want to prejudice anything that might go to trial. We don't know if Andrew will be prosecuted, but it's a possibility. And if you were to look at legislation and start enacting that that removes him from the line succession, does that mean he, you know, you would prejudice, case. So that's not ideal. We then ask the question, but what about the princesses? Because

they remain, Beatrice is ninth in line, usually is 12th in nine. Beatrice's children follow her. And the government said to us, when we asked about it, well, no decision has been taken on that yet. And I was quite surprised about that because I think I just, I thought there'd be a very clear kind of echoing of the palaces guidance a few months before that their position remains wholly unaffected. And I suspect what is going on here is the constant communication between the palace and the government in terms of let's see which way this goes and come of the hour, we will then have a think about it. But speaking to constitutional experts at the time, a few weeks ago who said, you would need to make that very clear in the legislation.

You would need to specify as was done with the abdication and Edward VIII, who specified, you know, I'm renouncing the throne. Also, if I have children the same for them, he didn't go on to have children. So it would need to be specified. But it raises the question, should they, if Andrew is removed from the next session, and we believe he probably will be, should Beatrice and Eugenie keep their places? How would that work if he's removed, given they're their daughters? Or should, you know, we really be looking at a much slimmer honed down thing and they go too? And it's a really interesting question.

So is it a watching brief from the palace? I think so. I think it's a watching brief from the palace and the government. And I think, who knows how long this will go on for, whether or not it'll be a decision for the king to take in the next few years with the government at the time, whether it's going to be a decision for William to take with the government at the time. But it's certainly you get the sense that they want to see which way this story is going to go

and what more else might come out and a decision will then be taken. But it is a really interesting question. I suppose how they approach the Beatrice and Eugenie problem. You know, we've talked about the Andrew problem in the past. But now how the palace handles this, be a sign, won't it, presumably, for how they're going to proceed with the monarchy and a kind of stripped down royal family. It does matter how the palace reacts to this, right? I think it does. And I think it goes back to that question of what role, if any, will they have in the future?

Because like you and I said, until, you know, even a year ago, there was always the mood music that they will never be working royals, the princesses, but when called on to support the wider family, but that's fine. You know, they might attend certain, you know, big family occasions. They might be called on to do a garden party, which is an official engagement. And I think I sense that won't happen again. And it shows a certain ruthlessness from the royal family that will move to protect the institution and the crown very often above and beyond family ties. We've seen that with Harry and Megan.

You can't do the half in half out thing. We are seeing that with how the king has, you know, moved to strike Andrew off the official record. and we may see it now with Birchston usually. That's it for this week's episode. If you enjoyed it, make sure you subscribe wherever you're joining us, so you don't miss a single episode. And we'd also like to thank our listeners for continuing to get in touch because it's been really nice to hear your thoughts on our podcast.

Thank you. We're particularly keen to hear your thoughts more about the King's US state visit. Westminster and Washington have signalled it still going ahead. But what do you think? And you can also get in touch by email, by sending us your thoughts at the Royals at the times.co.com. And we will hope to feature them in a future episode. Thanks so much for joining us on The Royals and we'll see you next week.

Bye for now.