The Royals with Roya and Kate - Did Trump take revenge on the King at the White House state dinner?

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

From a White House welcome to the Congress speech and the state dinner, this was supposed to be the day King Charles showed royal symbolism can still carry real diplomatic weight in America. But it didn't quite turn out that way. After a big day of pageantry in Washington, the visit took an extraordinary turn at the banquet, when President Donald Trump appeared to suggest that the King backed him on Iran — a remark that's triggered headlines around the world. In response to Trump's comments, a Buckingham Palace spokesperson said the King is "naturally mindful of his government's long-standing and well-known position on the prevention of nuclear proliferation".In the immediate aftermath, Roya Nikkhah and Kate Mansey are joined by The Times’s assistant US editor David Charter for post-match analysis on the spectacle, the tensions and the question now hanging over the visit: did royal diplomacy win the day, or has Trump seized the final word?Get in touch: [e-mail]: GettyProducer: Robert WallaceExecutive Producer: Priyanka DeladiaRead more: King Charles’ speech to Congress: praise, warnings and 12 standing ovations Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals from America, the podcast where we discuss what happens behind palace walls and the White House do. I'm Royneika. And I'm Kate Mansy. And tonight we're coming to you from Washington, D.C. at the end of a very busy day for the king and queen on day two of their state visit. It's been a day of pomp and pageantry and spectacle at the White House and very warm words from President Trump to the king. But beneath all the choreography, this is arguably one of the most difficult parts of the king's reign where he walks a diplomatic tightrope through some of the political minefields that face him over here with regards to Donald Trump. So the big question here in Washington, has royal diplomacy really moved the dial?

And has the king used symbolism, soft power and history to steady a difficult relationship? Or is it simply theatre at its best? and we'll all go back to normal afterwards. So to help us unpack all of this, we are delighted to be joined by the Times' US Assistant Editor, David Charter, who is a seasoned Royal Watcher, and those are all the ins and outs of what goes on in Washington.

So excited to hear your thoughts on what's been a very lively day, David. Good to say that. Welcome, David. Thank you. I should say welcome to you for coming to Washington, which is where I live and work. You're the man here in Washington for the time, so you've had a front row seat to this build-up the whole administration

of Donald Trump, first incarnation, now the second incarnation. How has this visit been from your perspective? It never ceases to amaze me just how fascinated, interested and frankly determined the Americans are to get to see the royals and to be a part of this trip and to soak it all in. I was at the Garden Party at the embassy yesterday. I've never seen so many sharp elbows from senior Americans, very well-known faces in this city, all trying just to get a little bit of face time with King Charles or Queen Camilla. We've just been at the White House tonight for the state dinner, which was a very glitzy affair,

a lot of candelabra, a lot of crystal, a lot of guilt, a very fancy menu. But what we've just taken away from that extraordinary speech by Donald Trump, when everyone has been saying for the past weeks and months and days in the Rulaptist visit, don't worry, Donald Trump's going to behave himself, he's not going to put the king. any awkward positions. He knows he's got to be on his best behaviour. He's not going to say any of the wild things he's been saying in the last few weeks. Well, he did. Because he just said in that speech, he made a reference to Iran. He said he was doing some very good work in the Middle East. He had defeated that opponent. And he said, words could easily be interpreted, and I think we all are interpreting,

as him trying to claim that Charles backs from Iran. He said, we are never, ever, Charles agrees with me even more than I do. We are never ever going to let that opponent have a nuclear weapon. That is going to be across headlines around the world tomorrow as Trump, Charles, backs me on Iran. What do you make of that? When I heard it, I thought, I knew this was another one of those faux pars, which so often does happen when there's a royal visit to America. Normally they're fairly amusing breaches of etiquettes that is simply brushed aside or become positive headlines. This is going to cause some negative headlines. I actually think Donald Trump knew what.

he was doing, I actually think that it was his revenge for some pretty sharp comments that were in King Charles' speech to Congress that he watched and that he may have felt were directed at him. Well, yeah, we'll come on to that because that was fascinating in and of itself, wasn't it? But I think what happened tonight has been given credence by the fact that we've had these private meetings today. So we had the bilateral meeting between the King and Donald Trump in the Oval Office, there were no cameras in there. They were allowed to take one or two pictures and then out they got. So we know that it was private time. We don't know what was discussed. This seems to suggest that they were talking about Iran and that Charles gave him supports

in that respect. That's right, though, the whole choreography of this trip and it's been very carefully arranged with a lot of palace and British government interest, is that there would be no Oval Office hijack or opportunity for questions and answers because we know the King doesn't do questions and answers from the media or anyone else in public. That was arranged. So there wouldn't be a Zelensky moment, if you like, in the Oval Office. But, as you say, at the dinner tonight, President Trump has co-opted King Charles to his side in the Iran conflict and gone further than he has previously gone, I think, a little bit further. Because he has mentioned this before in one of his very brief interviews with a reporter.

he has said that he thinks that Charles agrees with him. Now he's suggesting he knows Charles agrees with him. After a bilateral meeting. And this is exactly the kind of situation the palace wanted to avoid on the state visit. This is exactly what they tried to brief would not happen because as they kept saying hopefully, the king knows what's coming his way, but Donald Trump would not want to put the king in an awkward position.

And now, tonight, the palace are going to be absolutely inundated with question from the world's media saying, what is your response to these claims by Donald Trump and the suggestions that the king and he have discussed it during that bilateral meeting and that the king backs him? An absolute nightmare from the palace. Whether or not it happened, it's a nightmare for the palace. He's been backed into a corner, hasn't he, Charles? So he will now have to intimate one way or another where he stands on Iran, presumably,

or just ignore it and hope it all goes through. You're absolutely right that Trump has said, oh, you know, I don't agree with Sykistan. he doesn't agree with me, but he said that Charles would take, he said, a different stand. That's right. Now it seems to be he's returning to that kind of favourite theme and I'm picking it. Now, before the trip, I was speaking to people at the palace who were saying, what we can't guarantee is what he will say in private. And then you never know with Trump whether it will emerge.

I don't think anybody would have expected him to put it in such a kind of public speech. State dinner speech. In a state dinner speech. It's interesting he used the word revenge. because we know that relationship is absolutely shattered between Kirstama and Donald Trump. But people have, you know, a lot of people, the palace, the White House, have hoped and assumed that Donald Trump's reverence for the king and the royal family would mean he wouldn't seek to be, he wouldn't seek to take revenge or air his disagreements with Kirstama via this relationship with the royal family. But that's changed tonight, hasn't it? I do think it's still aimed at the British government, the Stama government.

I was thinking during the address to Congress that the couple of quite barbed comments that the king made would be rationalised by Trump to himself as saying, oh, the government made him say that. You know, that wasn't Charles's view. Do you mean things like NATO and Ukraine and checks and balances on power? Checks and balances I had in mind was the first one that brought the Democrats immediately to their feet. Which Donald Trump reference in his speech tonight. Correct. He said the king made the Democrats sing and that's not an easy thing to do. Correct. And what he's harking back to, especially, is the state of the union address, which becomes highly partisan and you get one side of the chamber applauding and the other groaning and ignoring.

And there was a danger of that. And I felt it in the press gallery today in Congress that when that checks and balances comment was made, I thought it had gone sluously. too far actually because it was the Democrats leapt immediately to their feet. And you could see the Republicans, it was like a wave went over them. We better get to our feet and applaud because we don't want this to descend into some sort of partisan affair. We know this is supposed to be a bipartisan situation that listening to the British King is not supposed to be a political punch up. It's supposed to be a sort of a love in. So now we're going back to the Congress. What happened in Congress? Because we've had so many speeches in one day. It's been so busy, hasn't it? First, we had Donald Trump standing up on the South Thorn of the White House with the ceremonial welcome. And it was supposed to say a few remarks. And that ended up being kind of 10 minutes of super off the cuff, rewheeling. There was an aside there, which I thought was potentially embarrassing. My mother fancied you when you were young. My mother said. My mother said, had a crush. Had a crush. My mother told me how cute you were, Charles. I told the king, as he said, that my mother had a crush on you. I mean, it was a loving though that speech. He meant it as a lovin. He heaped praise on the king.

He kept saying how wondering he was. Talked about his intellect, his passion, all of that. There were no barbed comments on that. It was a proper lovin, wasn't it? Yeah, it was a proper loving. It was talking about the sort of special relationship again. But we had that. And then we went to Congress.

And that's when Charles was able to have his speech. And that was obviously being back and forth with the prime minister and government officials and palace officials for a long time before he. So he knew exactly what he was saying, and that's when he really threw his weight behind NATO. He talked about the importance of alliances. And he talked about Ukraine and supporting Ukraine as well. It was noticeable that he went a bit further than in the 2025 banquet speech, where he also mentioned NATO and Ukraine, but very gently in half sentences.

And I felt this speech was a bit firmer. Well, is that Kirstama sending the king here taking his revenge on Donald Trump by sending quite short messages? Well, at the beginning, there was always the reiteration, wasn't there, of the palace, that the king always travels on advice and on the request of government. And I noticed in the speech in Congress, and he does say this from time to time, it's not completely unusual, but it felt pointed this time that he said, my prime minister and my government basically saying, you know,

you cannot divorce me from the UK government. I am here as head of state, which it sometimes seems that Donald Trump likes to put the royal family in a box as his friends and then continue to take pot shots at, you know, Sekeir Stama, whereas Charles is sort of saying, no, I'm here on government business, essentially. We know that number 10 has a strong hand in these speeches and I can envisage several questions arising tomorrow in the House back in Westminster. Ed Davy, at the very least, will have a few words because he was the one who's been calling for the king to be pulled out. He was during the trip.

Yeah. The Liberal Democrat leader was saying it was going to be an embarrassment. But I think it would be more than Ed David. We had, you know, Emily Thornberry has called it for saying to postpone because she sort of intimated what Sir Peter Westmacher had said to us here on the podcast a few weeks ago, of course, the former ambassador to the US, Charles's former private secretary. He had said it must be postponed if America is still at war with Iran because sending the king on a state visit could look as if the king sanctions or agrees with Trump on Iran. And that's exactly what Donald Trump has said tonight. Exactly what it is. Is this going to change the whole tone of the visit, do you think?

Charles will be determined that it doesn't. And you could see that tonight where he persevered with this speech that had obviously been worked on for months and loaded with jokes. And this sensational gift that they brought, not only was it a bell from a submarine called HMS Trump, it was a gold bell. And we all know that that's going to end up in the Oval Office because the Oval Office is full of. goal. Yeah. But I thought there's a bit of flexing, even in the King's dinner speech tonight, because he talked about, you know, relationships with Europe and he kept talking about France as well.

He said, oh, you know, saying we love our neighbours in France. Yes, well, when he talks about, you know, European alliances and, you know, joking that the Americans say, well, without us, you know, all you Brits would be speaking German. And the King said, well, arguably, without us, you'd be speaking French. That joke was particularly pointed because it was Trump who went to Davos at the start of the year and told the audience in Davos, brackets, a German-speaking part of Switzerland. You'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans because we won the war. We won World War II.

Actually, it was German and a little bit of Japanese. But what was interesting to me was that they would bring that joke full circle and turn it on. Donald Trump in a way that was, I think, intended to impress upon the president that the broad sweep of history, as much of King Charles's statements are, they're designed to remind or educate, perhaps, the American president that there are not just 250 years of history, there's 400 years of history between Britain and America, and the two countries have been closely linked throughout that time and they've always found a way

to repair relations and to overcome bumps in the road. So that's been the message but it was delivered in such a spiky way today by the Brits I thought. I don't know if it was unnecessarily spiky but it was pretty provocative the way I think that they decided that the king

should deliver those. Palace has a hand in those speeches because those speeches go from Downing Street to the palace, backs and forwards, backs and forwards. The King sees them the private secretary looks them and works on them. So they're not totally out of the control of the king and the palace. Because it's the government's ideas and the king's words. He's not going to get up there and say something that he can plead doesn't agree with.

No. But it's interesting that they would come over and it's been quite a strong show actually of supporting the UK. And I think that was the kind of danger, wasn't it, beforehand, that Charles could come over here and people would say, oh, why are we, you know, fawning to? somebody who's been so critical of the British government. Why he's been so rude, you know, he's talked about NATO warships as toys compared to the Americans. He's talked about how NATO troops stayed a little off the front lines.

He's, you know, just so many missiles being fired across the Atlantic that there was this worry that we would seem very weak coming over here and fawning, you know, and kind of bowing down to his largesse. and, you know. Well, that certainly hasn't been the case, has it? But it has. Well, it hasn't, but it's interesting. I think that speech, you're right. I think that speech in Congress rattled Trump because tonight, Royer and I were there.

That's why we're still in our glad racks. At their dinner at the White House. We just dressed up on black tie for you, David. Oh, looking good ladies. Thank you. This will all be lost on people listening to it on the audio podcast. Both Kate and I are in our black tie frocks straight from the White House State dinner.

But when we got, when they arrived, there at the dinner, they posed for the pictures as the king and queen got out the car at the South Portico at the White House. And then Trump, to the reporters, very loudly and very clearly, said, pointing at Charles. You know, he did a great speech. I'm very jealous. And he was making a point. He was sort of poking Charles and going, I saw your, now I saw your speech. I wasn't at Congress because it's not convention for him to go. But he, it's obviously rattled him that speech. I think that's a very sharp observation. What I was thinking through the speech was the subtext of this must be that we're such great friends that we can Josh with each other. Speak very freely to each other.

Exactly. We can have quite risky jokes with each other and we can speak quite plainly with each other because we're such close friends. But what you've got to bear in mind is Donald Trump has quite a thin skin. And he can. I think we saw that tonight. Yes. And I think maybe he's been he feels he's been poked once too often today. Talking about poking him, very, very bad timing. But of course, the Financial Times this morning had a story about the new ambassador, UK ambassador to Washington, so Christian Turner, who had been caught talking to some students back in February

and saying, well, there is no special relationship anymore. If the US has a special relationship, It's probably with Israel. The government responded to this leak of these apparent opinions of Sir Christian. The government response said these were private informal comments. There's certainly not any reflection of the UK government's position. And this all emerged today, very damaging. We saw Christian Turner at Congress looking, I think, quite cheapish.

He's meant to be uncontroversial. Now there's another ambassador with some baggage, with another story. What did you make of that story? Well, my feeling was I did think of the Lord Darryk situation, but my feeling was, and just to remind you that Darryk situation where his private cables, which were very damning about the Trump administration, were maliciously leaked very shortly after the 2019 state visit. And all of the work that went into the 2019, the state visit on improving Trump's mood

and attitude towards the UK was blown by that incident. Or a lot of the work, I should say, was blown by. We had John Bolton on just this week on another episode which we've just recorded here, which is already out, who was on that visit, who was the first person he said Donald Trump called after those cables were leaked, who was absolutely apoplectic and wanted Kim Darrick gone straight away. And as we know, Kim Darrick was indeed recalled and Donald Trump got his way. That's right. As Ambassador Bolden said, it gave you a real insight into what a thin skin Donald Trump has. I don't think the Christian Turner leak will have the same impact. I don't think...

We can't. We can't lose another ambassador. It's partly that and it's partly that Trump won't want to go that far into blowing apart this trip with Charles. He genuinely respects and admires King Charles. He will excuse some of the more robust jokes and barbs that he's perceived King Charles to be saying, in his mind, he will think that was the British government that made him do that, that put him up to it. I think because he really values his relationship with the royals and especially Charles. He thinks they get on just great. Remember last time after 2019 when they spoke and Charles spoke to him at length in private

about his environmentalism and climate and Trump was asked about it shortly afterwards. Trump came out and said, oh, no, I think it's great. He's just concerned about future generations. and of course we have a great climate in America as well. We have the best climate in America as well. He didn't want to get into a fight over climate or environment or whatever the media was trying to instigate between them. This may rebound though on Kirstama, I think.

This whole trip was supposed to be about repairing and patching up the special relationship. And have we just had a real rogue move by the British government to actually poke the bear? make that special relationship even worse. It sounds like we have. Well, I think the intention was to demonstrate exactly what you were saying, Kate, that the Brits are not going to come here and fawn and make the royal families look a bit of a laughing stock, perhaps, or the government look a bit of a laughing stock. There's a balance to be struck between putting your point of

view and going too far. We will find out tomorrow, I think, if they've gone too far to day, but I do think it was done in the context of trying to impress upon the Americans that we're such a close and long-standing ally that we can talk to each other like this, can't we? Well, we hear a lot about the special relationship, and we have done today. Donald Trump spoke about it this morning on the South Lawn. Charles spoke about the special ingredient in the friendship, is how he phrased it in Congress. and we've heard it again said tonight.

So that seems to contradict what Sir Christian Turner was saying that they don't call it a special relationship anymore. They don't think it exists. But considering how quickly this state visit has unraveled from the kind of loving earlier today to where we are now, is Sir Christian Turner onto something? Was he not speaking the truth? He is reflecting the thoughts of diplomats here that have developed actually over recent years

that they don't like using the phrase special relationship. It's banned at the embassy, isn't it? It is banned within the embassy among British officials here. They think it sounds needy. This is from Boris Johnson's time, isn't it? It's needy and weak. But when you think in the context of Trump, thinking that it's a phrase of Winston Churchill's, and Trump is slightly obsessed of Winston Churchill,

He's got the bust in his Oval Office, and he does mention him every an hour again. He said that Kirstama... He mentioned it constantly today. Kistama was no Winston Churchill. Yeah. And that again... Mentioned him in his speech today on the South Lawn. That again, bringing up Churchill, could be seen as a veiled or not so veiled jab at Stama.

I mean, he literally on the South Lawn today made a point of saying in his off-the-cuff remarks, clearly very bland. And I'm very proud, and I have brought back Sir Winston Churchill's bus. Did I mention I brought the bus back of course all the last minute? got rid of that bronze bust of Churchill. So it was another, we all know that he's been banging on about Kirstama being no Winston Churchill. Actually, no, I think about it. Today was very barbed all round, wasn't it?

Well, Charles mentioned Churchill in his speech. It was a sort of loving spectacle with lots of marching bands, but actually a bit of a war of words going backwards and forwards between them. It's that there's quite a lot of potential for taking a bit of offence. He would not have been disposed. to take offence with Charles. But as I say, if he's discerning the hand of government in this, then perhaps that's why he's playing a little bit more rough. So where does this all leave royal diplomacy then?

And we often talk about these trips in terms of sort of soft power and, you know, lots of royal aides wanted this to be, you know, Charles reminding Donald Trump and the Americans in the UK of the ties that bind. This is already the most political royal visit to America ever, I think. in terms of overtly so. I mean, clearly, Georgia Six was buttering up the Americans to join in the war. Yes, the, less the Queen came after Suez, but to be honest, it had all been patched up by, frankly, sacking the British Prime Minister and getting a new one in, who Eisenhower liked. So there's been nothing like this. And in fact, the contrasts with 1991 and the only previous monarch to speak to Congress, his mother, that was, I'm after the very successful Gulf War collaboration to boot out Saddam Hussein from Kuwait, an example of Britain and America working hand in glove in the Gulf?

Well, dot, dot, dot. I mean, the contrast is there for all to see. The tone really changes tomorrow when we're in New York. What does it, though? For a day. Well, I think that the morning will be, you know, the somber 9-11 commemorations, it's a 25th anniversary, and we heard Charles say in Congress today,

Again, another very sort of pointed remark. But I think it was meant well-intentioned because he said, you know, my wife and I will be at the 9-11 memorial reminding Americans of how we stood. The UK stood with the US very soon after those attacks in solidarity, reminding that, you know, we have stood shoulder to shoulder as allies, you know, at moments of international crisis. There was also a plug for NATO, wasn't it? Because he talked about Article 5 being triggered in the wake of the 9-11 attacks, the only time it has been.

And NATO responded. and went to America's aid. NATO, of course, against a common enemy. Donald Trump is constantly bashing. The reminders are a constant, they may be viewed as quite heavy-handed by Trump and his team, I suppose. But I do think you also made a great point, Casey. Well, you both made the point, actually, that Trump's words have been particularly provocative, strong and ill-tempered.

About NATO especially, I mean, you know, the standing. back from the front lines was probably the one that would cause the most offence in Britain. So much so. The king sent a memo. Correct. And was shot across Donald Trump's bows. And he then came out and apologised. Only to the British, actually.

It wasn't to the rest of NATO, was it? No. But that did show the power of the monarchy, of the British monarchy to score a hit with Trump. And that's, of course, what the government is relying on here. But have they slightly overplayed their hand? I think we have seen today that it is a special relationship in lots of ways because it's completely unique, tied up with so much history. But is that this kind of junction, isn't it, that we don't have a relationship like this with any other ally, any other country. It's in and of itself, it's special.

There's so much expectation on both sides of not letting the other side down so that when one side doesn't do what the other side expected it to, everyone feels a bit hurt. And Charles has come in to try and patch that up because that's something. all been going on in the last few months in the back, well, not in the background and the foreground in the foreground, in a very kind of bitter war of words between Kirstehr Stama and Donald Trump. Yes. But it just feels like perhaps it hasn't been the sticking plaster that we all thought it might be.

But Roya, do you think he's been too political, Charles? Because now we're unpicking it, it does seem like quite a big intervention. I agree. I think he has been quite pointed in some of his comments. But I still think Donald Trump is going to. come away from this state visit, absolutely glowing with the just stardust

that he feels Charles brings to his, you know, the White House put out, the official White House account put out a picture of Trump and Charles today on the Santhorn with the caption, Two Kings. Yes. I kid you not, two kings.

The official White House ex account. So Donald Trump clearly feels on a part, you know, of kingship with Charles, he will, regardless of all this back, because and forwards that we've unpicked tonight of the political undertones and the, you know, the, the, the warm-upmanship from the British government to Donald Trump, Trump is still going to come away saying this is the biggest, most beautiful, brilliant state visit anyone has ever seen and he's going to be dining out on it for quite a long time. He won't care about the headlines. He won't care about the analysis. The pictures look great and, you know, he's got the midterms to worry about. That's very important for him. The visuals he wanted to get just right. They set up the White House beautifully with the flags and all the military arranged around the back of the White House there.

It looked great. It couldn't quite match Windsor Castle or Buckingham Palace, of course, but the White House was built as a house. There was a reason the founding fathers didn't want a king. And it is true that inside the Trump administration, there is a social media attack unit which loves to make those memes that, provoke and antagonise the Democrats and the media quite a lot in America. And it does work. And I might add some of the Republicans were having great fun laughing behind their hands at Democrats jumping up up to applaud a king, having been on the no king's demonstration quite recently to campaign against Donald Trump. So it is replete with all sorts of historical, but it is. Do you think from everything we've

seen tonight and so far for the last couple of days. Is this a big watershed moment for the special relationship, do you think? Do you know what? I think it depends how Donald Trump wakes up tomorrow and what you were saying about how the splendour of it and the fact that he

is the centre of attention of this fantastic state visit that looks great, that let's face it, not just the whole of Washington, but the whole of American elite political business society were were all pressing for tickets to try and get into that East Room tonight.

I mean, those were highly sought after tickets to join an event like that with, what, 130 seats, I think it was. And as I say, I saw it myself at the Garden Party. Trump loves to play the host and to be the centre of this sort of attention and to present himself as mixing in the same company as the British Rolls. It's a tremendous thrill for him. So it could be a watershed moment in a positive way, as far as Trump's concerned. It depends to me whether in his mind he's going to think, do you know what the Keir Starmat was trying to get something back on me? And whether he thinks that.

He may think that. The art of the deal continues. The art of the deal continues. Thank you so much for joining us, David. It's been a pleasure to get your take, your unique perspective on this great royal show here in Washington. Washington this week. Thanks, David. Thank you so much. Well, the trip rolls on from Washington to New York and Virginia and then onto Bermuda, and we will be following it all, so stay tuned. So you can keep across all our coverage by

subscribing at the times.com. And we'll be back with one more podcast next week from Washington, and you don't want to miss that. So make sure you follow the Royals wherever you get your podcasts, and you can also check us out on the Times YouTube channel. Until then, thank you, so much for joining us and we'll see you next week. Bye.