The Royals with Roya and Kate - How the Andrew scandal overshadowed Prince William's Saudi trip

Episode Date: February 11, 2026

Prince William met Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) in Saudi Arabia while the monarchy continues to face a major crisis over the Epstein files. As police assess claims that Andrew shared confidential trade information with Jeffrey Epstein during his time as a UK trade envoy, the King issued an unprecedented statement pledging Buckingham Palace’s full support for any investigation. Roya Nikkhah and Kate Mansey are joined by Catherine Philp to discuss whether the monarchy’s soft power can survive this scandal.Guest: Catherine Philp, World Affairs Editor, The Times. Image: Getty Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to The Royals, the podcast where we give you insight into what happens behind the palace walls and why it matters. I'm Kate Manzi. And I'm Royne Ecard. Today we join you from the desert in Saudi Arabia and Prince William is here on what's being described as his biggest diplomatic test to date. It's a visit here at the request of the UK government and it is their one big ask of him on international. manoeuvres this year. That's right. William is here as Britain's diplomatic secret weapon. He's here to discuss trade, defence, regional security and build relations between the UK and Saudi Arabia. But the trip has been overshadowed by more major developments back home, because as William carries out his international manoeuvres here, the Andrew and Epstein

scandal has escalated sharply. Newly merged emails from the Epstein files appear to show Andrew Matt Matt Madden Windsor had shared official reports with the disgraced pedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein. It prompted police to confirm that it is assessing material and an extraordinary statement came from Buckingham Palace stating that they will support a police inquiry if required. And even here in Saudi Arabia, the impact is being felt because Kensden Palace issued their first public statement on behalf of William and Catherine just as we started the trip in Riyadh, telling journalists they were deeply concerned

and their thoughts remain focused with the victims. So what can William realistically expect to achieve on a visit like this and how much harder does royal diplomacy become when scandal keeps colliding with the job at hand? To help us unpack this all, we're very pleased to be joined by Catherine Filp, the World Affairs Editor of the Times. Catherine, thank you for joining us.

Welcome to the Royals, Catherine. Lovely to have you. So we're recording here in Saudi Arabia. following Prince William. He started the trip in Riyadh, and we've just this evening flown on the World Court plane to Allula to an absolutely spectacular setting. And I think we originally thought we were going to sit down and just talk to you all about diplomacy and the role of soft power and, you know, world affairs and why it matters. But this trip has been overshadowed once again by Andrew Matt Matt and Windsor, just as when we were last on maneuvers with William in Rio not so long ago back in October, Andrew had just been deprinted. And interested to get your thoughts on that, Catherine, because obviously it is a global story that is having impact all around the world.

How do you sort of look at this as a global story? How much impact is it having globally? Well, I think globally, a lot of people are wondering why it's having such an impact in the UK and almost none in the US, which has possibly got a lot to do with what has and hasn't been released yet from those files. So, yeah, I think that the most prominent people involved so far have been British, including, obviously the former Prince Andrew. No, I think that's interesting, isn't it? Because I think we're obsessing about it here, but it was the US Department of Justice who released the file,

three million pages of evidence into their investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. But actually, the focus does seem to be in the UK with even questions this week as whether Sir Keir Stama should step down. We've seen Lord Mandelson stepped down from his role as US ambassador last year and now from the Labour Party itself.

We've seen questions over what the King and, and William should be doing. And then we just had overnight last night, a US congressman saying, well, you know, this looks like the end of the British monarchy. So, Catherine, what do you think of the wider ramifications for this? The allegations that Andrew has shared confidential information. I mean, it's serious for Andrew.

And it's probably serious for the royals because it's for the first time, really, of all the things that have come out in the Epstein scandal. It's bled into his government-facing role. so the official role he was undertaking for the British government. I mean, obviously, there's all the jokes about Air Miles Andy and how he behaved in that role. But he had a serious obligation of confidentiality towards his sources, and that would apply both to British officials

and to any foreign interlocutors. And they would expect that to remain secret. I think what's really serious about it is that essentially, if this is true, Andrew is being accused of the same thing that has resulted in a police, investigation being opened into Peter Mandelson's conduct. It is going to raise an enormous amount of questions, even more questions than we're already seeing being asked about Andrew in that 10 years where he had that trade envoy world travelling around the world. The suggestion here is that he shared sensitive documents

and of course from trips to the likes of Vietnam and all around the world. The guidance is, under official guidance, trade end boys are supposed to have a duty of confidential charity and not share that kind of information. What was seismic yesterday, I mean, Kate and I had an extraordinary day in Saudi Arabia yesterday in Riyadh, because the day started with what we thought was, you know, a lot of people thought was going to be a picture of William stepping off a plane in Riyadh and, you know, shaking some hands and meeting Mohammed bin Salman, MBS, which we'll get onto is big news in itself. But we then had this briefing with Kensden Palace who gave us this statement from William and Kate about their concerns. But then things moved so fast. And we learned that Republic, the anti-monicie group had made an official complaint to Thames Valley police about the allegation that Andrew had shared information. And of course, we should stress again, Andrew Matt Madden-Winzo has always denied any wrongdoing in relation to Geoffrey Epstein. And as we record now, you know, there was no official police investigation launched.

And then last night, late last night when a lot of us here thought, you know, the work was done, Buckingham Palace issued an extraordinary statement, basically saying, well, we did out, the king has made clear in words and through unprecedented actions, his profound concern allegations which continue to come to light in respect of Mr Mountbatten Windsor's conduct. While the specific claims in relation are for Mr. Mountbatten Windsor to address, if we are approached by Thames Valley Police, we stand ready to support them, as you would expect. As was previously stated, their Majesty's thoughts and sympathies have been and remain with the victims of any and all forms of abuse. That was a Buckingham Palace statement on behalf of the King. Pretty extraordinary, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, those unprecedented actions, of course, related to the King's actions last year in October

when he stripped Andrew of all his royal titles. And at the time, the Palace thought, we've done it. You know, we've beaten about a royal lodge. We've stripped him for all his royal titles. The King's done everything he can possibly do now. And then yet more revelations, yet more allegations. In the morning, it's interesting. language in between William's statement and then the King's statement, wasn't it? Because you had in the

morning Prince and Princess of Wales saying they were deeply concerned. And then by the evening, you had the King saying he was profoundly concerned. I mean, I've written a piece today for the time saying, well, it's all very well being concerned about these victims. But in a world in which Thames Valley Police are investigating these allegations, you wonder whether there might need to be more pressure on the palace to answer questions about what they know. So we have. We have, had a moment, didn't we, today, Roy, where William was on day two of his visit here in Saudi Arabia, trying to shine a light on how women's lives here had improved over the last six, seven years. And he was meeting young girls who were playing football. It was all very nice. But a broadcast journalist shouted out,

and this is quite rarely done by travelling UK media, shouted out a heckle essentially to say, Sir, what did you know about Andrew and Epstein? Now he shouted out twice quite loudly. William was very far away. He didn't seem to hear what was said or, you know, it was convenient that he didn't hear what was said, but he truly was quite far away. But it's now coming home to roost this. You know, they've said they're concerned, but it's been made quite clear to the Palace, hasn't it? That's not really enough. Yeah. I thought the timing of that statement was extraordinary, I have to be honest, from Buckingham Palace. I mean, it did seem to absolutely torpedo William arriving on what all the royal households have pitched as a very, very high level diplomatic

mission coming to meet Mohammed bin Salman. Catherine, can I just get your thoughts on putting Epstein and Andrew aside just for a moment if all of that wasn't going on in the background how big a deal should William's first official visit to Saudi Arabia

be in terms of what's being asked of him in terms of the sensitivities and diplomatic tight rate walk around a divisive, controversial leader like MBS. Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think it's interesting that essentially that this visit should be considered controversial, given how many royal visits they have been back and

forward between the Saudis and the British royal family in the past. They have very, very close connections. I think what makes this different is that William is the same generation as MBS, and MBS is himself personally controversial beyond the controversies over the fact that, you know, Saudi Arabia has a dire human rights situation, all of that. He has been personally accused by American intelligence agencies of ordering himself the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Of course he has always denied that. Yeah, this was a journalist who's been a known critic of Saudi Arabia's government

who went into the embassy. The Saudi embassy in Istanbul and was murdered. Now, he has been rehabilitated in the years since then from the position of being a global pariah. But I think everyone recognizes that the relationship is an important one. It's really just bringing William into that a new generation and sort of saying, right, you've got to go and stand next to this guy that your father and grandmother have met before. So I think that really all he needed to do in this situation, because the Saudis are the winners out of this. Yeah.

Far more than Britain. The Saudis want this to go well. They want to please us. And William going there and standing next to MBS, they've got their shot. I mean, the heckling is extraordinary because frankly, if William can't get away from those kind of questions in Saudi Arabia, he's not going to be able to get away with them anywhere

because there's no free press in Saudi Arabia. Really, MBS wants those pictures of himself standing alongside William. He just really has to play the old-fashioned royal be very flattering and uncontroversial. And, you know, Saudi Arabia has been hosting all these sports events some comedy events and music and stuff to rehabilitate their global image. Simply having William there is good enough for them. We had a really interesting briefing yesterday with the UK ambassador here, Stephen Hitchin,

who was very open about how delighted MBS and his court are to have William here, why it's important, the fact that they're two effectively crown princes, you know, long live both kings, but the reality is in the future they could be kings together for a very long time and the importance of building. that relationship is so important. They had a very, we kept being told this went intimate evening together, intimate dinner. They went and saw at Tarife, this extraordinary old architectural palace almost and NBS showed him round. Then they had what was called an intimate dinner just with MBS and William, his private secretary and the ambassador. There was an exchange of gifts.

There's a lot of emphasis placed on the importance of this friendship. But just as you say, Catherine, this is a major win for MBS. What does the UK get out of it if it looks good and it goes well? I mean, that's the thing. I think the palace have been over-egging it, possibly, and the British government that this is difficult for William. It's not difficult. He just has to show up and, you know, shake hands and play nice.

The British get to continue this very lucrative relationship we have with Saudi Arabia. We sell them an enormous amount of weapons. They are one of our biggest buyers, perhaps our biggest buyer from our defence industry. We also have links with them in obviously a very unstable region. We need an ally that can be counted on. And they've, on a governmental level, they've played that role very well. They're not popular within the Saudi regime is not popular amongst the British public. I think that there's a lot of selling this as a big ask and how Great William is doing at home,

rather than actually in any diplomatic terms. Because as you've seen for yourself, you couldn't why. the grin of MBS's face. He's very, very happy. Well, I think that's it, isn't it? I think he can have to Kier Stama. He can have Rachel Reeves come over as they have. He can have the Trade Minister, Chris Bryant, come over. But actually, who knows if they're going to be around today, tomorrow, the next year, particularly the way things have gone the last few weeks. But he knows that William's going to be there when they both become kings and he's going to be there for decades to come

so that if he signs a deal with the UK, he knows there's going to be one man. who he can kind of hold to account and he can treat him on that level to a certain point. It's interesting the kind of powerhouse that Saudi Arabia has had within the region as well. I mean, it seems we're hearing all the time here that there's been so much kind of rapid change. Women can now drive, for example,

they didn't used to be able to drive. Look, the rest of the Gulf is also conservative. So some of these issues were not such a big deal elsewhere. You know, Qatar has many of the same retrograde. laws on, say, homosexuality. Nowhere went quite as hard on women as Saudi Arabia, but, you know, not far off. So Saudi wasn't a massive outlier within the region. It is a regional powerhouse, and it's always really put itself up as a rival to Iran.

And that rivalry continues, and Saudi sees itself at the head of a block that's kind of opposing Iran. But, you know, it's ruffled a lot of feathers amongst its own neighbours that picked a fight with Qatar that went nowhere. and eventually had to end. It slightly patched things up with Iran, and it caused a lot of mayhem in Yemen, and a lot of people were killed there. You know, it's a messier player in the region than it would like to be thought of.

But yet, there's no doubt that things are changing in Saudi. You will have seen it for yourself. I haven't been there since, I think, 2017, and a lot of these changes have happened since. But I think it's really important to look at where these changes are coming from, So they're not grassroots changes. So in Iran, you had the women life freedom protests where women were throwing off their hijabs. In Saudi Arabia, it's very much been that MBS wants to be the one to grant these freedoms to people. So he in fact jailed all the women who were advocating for women to be able to, were getting behind the wheel themselves.

They were activists and doing it. They all got slammed in jail. And he changed the law and said that they could drive. So I think this is one of the issues with Saudi Arabia. I don't think I've ever been anywhere with less politics. So you can go somewhere like Iran where you had similar issues where women were treated in a certain way, covered up, there's kind of repression of dissent and stuff. But there's no political debate whatsoever in Saudi Arabia. And there's no politics.

There is court intrigue. There is an enormous royal family who fight with each other all the time and they have diverse interest. But there is no political debate. and every freedom that is granted and they're never political ones, they're social ones, they must come from MBS.

It's a really interesting contrast there, isn't it? Because it's absolute monarchy here. And although he is not king, the king is still alive here. He is the de facto leader. And you have a real contrast between MBS and the absolute monarchy and William here as, you know,

the constitutional monarchy's crown prince. To go back to your point, Kassan, about how it plays out in terms of, you know, in Saudi Arabia, Arabia, the change that they're very keen to show, you know, us, we were told yesterday by diplomatic sources, this key phrase that modernisation is not Westernization and they're very keen to show that. But to your point that Saudi Arabia, as a divisive leader, MBS is not

that popular, you know, as a figure back in the UK. He is controversial. I think that really goes to the heart of one of the kind of big reasons the government want William here. Because the government, I think, have realized, and I think the royal family and William himself has become quite adept at being quite good with divisive controversial leaders. Donald Trump springs to mind. Donald Trump, who, you know, after his re-election before his, I want to say enthronement, because he really thinks he is a king, but before his inauguration, when he went to Paris in December 2024 with all the world leaders there for the reopening of Notre Dame, it was William that he asked to meet, specifically, before Kirstarmer.

or anyone else from here was William. We had that extraordinary sort of half-hour meeting in the ambassador's residence in Paris where Donald Trump, it was like a loving was just sort of firing out these compliments going, he's a really handsome guy, he's doing a really good job. And you can see the kind of, again, when he came for the state visit in September.

He's very, very fond of William. He thinks he's great. And he's almost like we were talking on another episode about, I think that's sort of how he wants to run the special relationship more through the royal family. And actually, as some of the, Sometimes as I think members of the family have to hold their nose and get on with it, it's an important part of the job. And I think you're seeing that with a bit of this visit too.

And also remember, if Kirstama goes to Riyadh, he comes back to the UK, he's got to go and say, yes, I raised the question of human rights and I did this and I did that. William doesn't have to have any of these difficult conversations. He can keep it all on that level. And of course, you know, he's a he can schmooze. He can schmooze. And he's a celebrity. and he doesn't have to have an election or he's not competition for Donald Trump or MBS.

He's just sort of there. And, you know, he has this huge recognition. So it does look like a blessing from Britain, a bigger blessing, frankly, than Starmo going. Coming up, can royal diplomacy still work in a moment like this? In the past, when King Charles was Prince of Wales, there often were little briefings that he had raised issues at the time about human rights, things that were live at that moment that, you know, people

be given the nod to say, yes, he did raise it. You know, we know that William behind closed doors is a bit more candid. We were told that the court of Mohammed bin Salman that while they obviously don't like public dissent against the leader and his small kind of coterie of 10 or 12, really, really close members of the family who advise him, they don't like public dissent. Actually, behind closed doors, we were told anyway that there's a bit more of a lot of. lively debate and actually, you know, that might have been a point at which William could share some of his views whether he did or not. They haven't said. It was all very private. But how do you think those sorts of views would be welcomed by a member of the British Royal Family, Catherine,

if they were to be raised? I mean, I think it really depends what you mean by those views. I can't imagine William having mentioned anything of real controversy, you know, of the kind we're talking about. If you think how, like, fundamental some of these issues are, in Saudi Arabia. I simply cannot see him raising that. I mean, he might have talked through, or tell me about your modernization, how's that going? To be honest, MBS probably took him more into his confidence like that and may have talked about, for example, what you said about the modernization, not westernization. That's really important to the very large part of the Saudi population who are very conservative and are uncomfortable with some of these developments

and don't want to see it in terms of westernization. And also we think about sports washing, greenwashing. You know, the understanding here that we've been told is about how, that's actually seeing it from a westernization point of view, that they don't see it as greenwashing or sports washing. They're not looking at what the West is doing and saying, oh, love us, love us, like us, like us. They're just getting on with the task at hand.

I mean, yes, some of that, although I have heard NBSS, responding to that accusation of green washing, pink washing, comedy washing, all of the washings, of just saying, I don't care as long as it improves the Saudi economy. So that's always how he would judge this. But all the time with, with an eye to, are they keeping the peace socially? I thought there was some interesting choreography in terms of the engagements that William has been doing. And clearly the sort of visuals of what MBS wants to project. I mean, today he started his day in Riyadh, visiting Sports Boulevard, which is this huge, one the major urban regeneration projects in Riyadh. It's been a hugely important project in terms

of showing this new side, a new vision of Saudi and opening it up. And there amidst a sea of men involved in the project was a woman, a British woman called Jane McGiven, who, I'm told, has the ear of MBS, big into horse racing as well. She's a big horse racing enthusiast. So I think she's probably got his ear there. But, you know, in terms of optics, I thought that was really clever, because you've got William coming and, you know, meeting all these Saudis, and there's a British woman, she's chief executive of Sports Boulevard, leading that project. And I thought, that's cleverly choreographed by the Saudis. Well, what's interesting as well to me is the British woman who wasn't there,

and that is the princess of Wales. Well, yes. Had she been there, I imagine that everyone's eye would have been on how is she treated, what is she wearing. It would have, although, you know, I think Melania Trump proved you can pretty much go as the consort of a Western leader or figure without having to modify your dress enormously, it would have been unavoidable

whether someone would have been able to shake her hand or not. If MBS had done that publicly, that would have become a drama at home. You know, it would have been such a distraction to have her there. I think on these kinds of trips that we have done with him over the years, in 2018, we went to Jordan, Israel,

and the occupied Palestine. in territories. And he went on his own. He has been to Dubai on his own. He's been to Oman on his own. I think not only in terms of the region, but sometimes I think they are very keen, particularly William, he understands,

and I think Catherine understands as well, the different focus that she brings. And there is a mood and a tone to a visit like this that I think both the royal household and the government are very keen to set. And that's not to have all that kind of scrutiny in terms of what is Catherine wearing, whose hand is she shaking, if she gets more attention?

It would be a distraction and the wrong kind of distraction, I think. Oh, definitely, absolutely. But it would have had an extra dimension for the Saudis of focusing on the role of women and what they can and can't do still. It would be interesting to see if MBS comes to the UK, A, if he comes to the UK and B, how soon if he comes to the UK, because I think there will be an eagerness for him to have that mirrored. There's an anecdote that when he came in 2018 and had a meeting with Charles and William at Clarence House, he was very disappointed to have not seen the Queen and a lunch was very hastily arranged him.

So I suspect he's a bit like Donald Trump and he quite likes having that sort of the monarchy shine on him. Catherine, can I ask your thoughts on the point of this visit, the deployment of soft power and royal diplomacy, which William is being seen as a sort of, you know, the beacon of bringing to the region and this high level. trip, when you've got what's going on at home, which, you know, torpedoed that meeting out of the water last night, let's be honest, it did. When you have William coming on a mission like this, with that scandal going on at home, how much does it undermine do you think what he's trying to achieve here versus, you know, a former prince engulfing a whole institution in scandal at the moment? I mean, I don't think the Saudis or MBS care at all about it. I think that it's absolutely immaterial to them. And frankly, some of the scandals amongst the Saudi royal family make Andrew look like nothing. But I think that the fact that they had to put out that statement and it being the first ever statement on landing in Riyadh, very unfortunate.

I mean, world's your topic, not mine, but I hadn't actually quite appreciated that that was their friend. ever statement on it. And the fact that they said then, you know, we think of the victims, which now is apparently what you have to say at the end of any statement on this relationship between Andrew and Epstein, was actually after this, you know, a different issue arose about the leakage of confidential information. And so they must have thought as long as they could and as hard as they could about whether they really had to do that or not and decided that they had no choice. But yeah, I would have thought that's more for the benefit of the British monarchy itself at home more than it is this trip. I don't think, again, that that would have been an

issue for the Saudis so much. So our huge thanks to Catherine Phelp for making sense of what is an extraordinary diplomatic challenge, a very sensitive one, but a fascinating one to watch over here in Saudi Arabia. And that's it for this special episode of the Royals. As ever, you can follow us and all of our reporting on this story and everything else happening behind palace walls at the times.com. And if you'd like to watch the podcast as well as listen to us, just search for Times Royals on YouTube, where you'll find all our episodes and analysis from across the Times. And as always, thank you very much for joining us and we'll see you next week.