The Royals with Roya and Kate - Inside the search for the King's new right-hand man

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Sir Clive Alderton, the King’s most senior aide, is preparing to step down after 20 years at Charles and Camilla’s side. But who will replace him as King Charles’s new right-hand man?Kate Mansey is joined by Queen Elizabeth II’s former communications secretary Simon Lewis and royal biographer Robert Hardman to enter the hidden world of royal courtiers. What do the palace’s so-called “men in grey suits” actually do? How much influence do they wield over the royal family? And what happens when their advice is ignored?Simon reveals what life was really like inside Buckingham Palace, from driving the Queen at Balmoral to advising the sovereign behind closed doors. They also discuss Prince Harry’s clashes with Sir Clive, how Andrew circumvented palace officials, and the qualities the King will need in his next principal private secretary.Get in touch: [e-mail]: GettyProducer: Robert WallaceVideo Producer: Eve ChadbournExecutive Producer: Priyanka DeladiaWatch us on YouTube.Read more: Wanted: skilled diplomat who knows how to make the King laugh Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals, the podcast where we discuss what happens behind palace walls and why it matters. I'm Kate Mansy. What does the King need from his new right-hand man? Well, that's the question facing the palace after Sir Clive Alderton, the King's most senior aide, announced that he will step down after two decades at his side. Sir Clive has helped guide Charles through family crisis, the death of the late Queen, the accession and the accession. coronation. Now, replacing him will mean finding someone who can navigate all the complexities of both king and country. But what does a royal courtier actually do? How much influence do they wield?

And is there any truth behind the mythology of their men in grey suits? Well, royals away this week, but I'm delighted to be joined by two excellent guests who know that world. Very well. Simon Lewis was once a Courteer himself as the first communications secretary to the late Queen and later Director of Communications for the Prime Minister Gordon Brown. And Robert Harbman is a journalist and author of the new biography, Elizabeth II, in private, in public, the inside story. Robert, Simon, welcome to the Royals. Great to be here.

Excellent to have you, particularly on this week. Now, Simon, you worked inside Buckingham Palace for two years. What surprised you most about the institution do you think when you joined? Because it wasn't your natural habitat, was it? No, I was what I'd call an accidental courtier. I actually had never met a member of the royal family until I was interviewed by the Queen and Princeville at Winter Castle in the final interview. And I had been seconded by the company I was working for Centrica, where I had been director of corporate affairs. And the palace in 1998, this was, were looking for someone to come in from outside to help them shape the communication.

strategy going forward after, frankly, what was a very difficult and challenging time, the year after death of Princess Wells. So I was recruited at that time for two years, and the whole experience was extraordinary. I guess the three things that struck me just going into the palace for the first time and sort of experience. First of all, you don't really appreciate until you go into a role like that, the whole constitutional framework. I call it the image of the red boxes. The red boxes coming in and out of the palace is an incredibly strong reminder of the way the monarchy sits at the center of the constitution. And secondly, I'm sure we'll talk more about it, the way in which if you are a courtier

and you are working in the palace, the kind of what you have to cover, the personal lives, the public lives, the financial side, all of those elements come together in one role. And the third thing is just that extraordinary combination of very grand and very humble. I mean, you can be at a state banquet one night and then literally, and I did it myself, helping the Queen with the washing up at Balmoral the following days. I'd like to hear all about that. It's that combination, which is so unusual and actually so charming in many ways. So it's the Constitution, the Institution and the fact that it's a family.

Exactly. Ultimately. And Robert, you have interviewed many senior members of the Royal Family. You spent time with the King, the late Queen. You've interviewed the Prince of Wales, Prince William. What do you think is so important about courtiers? Did you have to jump through lots of hoops, presumably, to get some of the access that you've had for your biographies? Well, yes.

I mean, they're always hoops in getting any sort of interview that's worth it sold in any subject, really. But, yeah, I mean, the role of the courtiers, and particularly the private secretaries, the sort of the top courtier in each household. So each member of the royal family has a private secretary. And they're crucial because they have to, as Simon says, they've got to cover everything. I mean, one of the longest serving private secretaries to the late queen, Michael Adine, was once asked, you know, what is your role? And he said, well, one minute, you can be talking to the prime minister. And the next minute, you're holding a small boy's mac. And is this a role of sort of you are the consulary, you're the family councillor?

And you play this key constitutional role because you're there as part of what is often described as the golden triangle, which basically is what runs the country, which is the cabinet secretary, head of the civil service, the private secretary to the prime minister. and the private secretary to the sovereign. And the three of them will sort of discuss if there's a tricky election issue coming up. If there's something that's really, really crunchy and difficult, those three will get together mainly to ensure that the monarch isn't given bad advice or urged to do something really stupid. So the private secretary is really a break on the monarchy either overreaching or being leered into difficult territory.

Well, the latest news, of course, was Sir Clive Alderton, who held that role, you know, of presumably, holding little boys max and social apps, and getting all the papers together for the red boxes. Now, his departure will be a big shock, I think, to Charles. He's been there for 20 years, really has been by Charles's side for such a long time, through thick and thin. I remember being on that first visit to Germany, I think you were there, Robert, in March

2023, the King's first foreign visit as monarch, and he addressed the Bundestag. and he gave this tub-thumping speech pretty much equally split between German and English and he talked about the ties that bind he talked about the brutal past he talked about the Second World War and friendship and enduring friendship

between the countries despite whatever's gone on in the past and as he came down afterwards to a standing ovation the first person he went to the Sir Clive Alderson shook his hand and sort of gave him a pat and it was so warm and friendly

it was like greeting family how big of a loss do you think this will be Robert. I mean, it's hard to underestimate that role, isn't it? I mean, Clive has been in that role, as you say. I mean, for the best part of 20 years, he originally came in from the Foreign Office on Saccumman as a deputy private secretary. And I remember then I was actually making a documentary with the then-Prince Charles for what was coming up to his then-60th birthday when I're now approaching his 80th. And there was Clive helping him write a very key speech, I think it was, to the European Parliament.

We were sort of filming this for the BBC. So Clive's been around a long time. And as with every private secretary, I mean, they know everything. They're incredibly trusted. And particularly with Clive, you know, he came back in, having gone back to the foreign office, he became ambassador to Morocco for three or four years and then came back to be the top private secretary. There's never just one private secretary because someone's always got to be on duties. They're normally a team of three.

But he came back as the top one in 2015. And he really started making very discreet. plans for the transition. The Queen was approaching her 90th birthday and it was time to sort of think about in very delicate ways. I mean, ways that you couldn't possibly leak out or the talk of the prince sort of getting ahead of himself. But you just sort of think about, well, what sort of a coronation is going to happen? How do we smoothly affect the transition? And I think when you look at the transition from the longest reigning monarch we've ever had, that happened sort of seamlessly. And a lot of that was down to planning by Clive, the Clive Alderton. And also

And by Christopher Guy. Exactly. And by the Queen's private secretary, Sir Christopher Guy, and then Sir Edward Young, who was her last private secretary. But yes, it's an extraordinary role. And it's said, we'll come, sure, come on to this. But the main role of the private secretary is to see problems before they rise up. And that's why the best private secretary is the ones you never really hear about.

Well, Simon, you've seen that relationship up close, of course, because when you came in 1998, it's the end of Lord Fellows. private secretary to then Queen Elizabeth the second and then Lord Jambren. Tell us what that relationship is like within the palace, having seen it in play. Well, it was very interesting because they couldn't be more different characters. I mean, Robert Fellows was almost kind of born into it. His father had been the land agent at Sandrium, so he'd come through the system and knew the family very well. He just knew how they placed ticked.

And he did a great job. I have to say history would be kind to Robert Fellows, because I think he actually was much more creative and thoughtful, certainly my experience of working with it. He was prepared to push things much further and we saw that during that extraordinarily week after the death of the Princess Wells. And the Robin was much more cut from the diplomatic cloth. The Queen of first met him on a visit to India and her talent spotted him. The Palace are very good at talent spotting people. So they see people in situ and think, ha, that's somebody I want by my side. Particularly in the Foreign Office. They're very good at spotting Foreign Office talent. So he came

into the Palace as deputy and then there was a very smooth succession. His view was we're here to serve the monarch and to do it in as kind of clear and diplomatic way as possible. So they were very different, but I enjoyed working for both them. And as Robert said, just seeing how they worked, the kind of the need to move from one huge topic to one very small topic, the discretion that was required and is required. But also, and I think Clive had this, that ability just occasionally to let something slip so that people know that you actually are very aware of what's going on. And again, as Robert said, I mean, Robin Jam was so good at looking around corners.

I remember when I actually was about to join the palace, the date I was due to join was the 31st of August, 1998, which was the year of the death of Princess of Wales. The anniversary of the first anniversary. And Robin said a quiet word. He said, if I was you, I wouldn't come until the first of September. Because anything that happens on that day, you'll be held responsible for. And that was very clever and wise advice. And it wasn't the last piece of wise advice he gave me. That's interesting. Julian Payne, one of your successors, who worked for Charles for several years as Director of Communications,

a road of peace was in the times when Sir Clive's retirement or stepping down was announced. And he describes Clive as a ringmaster, somebody who could play five-dimensional chess, which speaks to your point of, you know, being able to, both your points of being able to look around corners and spot problems before they arise. In contrast, there was a political theorist called Harold Lasky in 1942 who described the role of the courtier as dignified slavery. He said you're part statesman, part lackey.

Does that ring true? Sounds familiar. Going back to that interview, Windsor Castle, it was fascinated because the Queen that Duke Edinburgh began to talk about what they needed in their advisors. That was quite an interesting interview, wasn't it? Because you were brought in to Windsor Castle for this interview.

And you were told, hang on a minute, they're busy with somebody. Upstairs. in the sitting room, yeah, and the clock kept ticking, and I'm thinking, hang on, everyone always told me the palace ran to time, and Robert Fellows, who was there with me, said, just keep practicing your quarterly bow, that's all you need to do. Eventually, I heard the door open upstairs and these peals of laughter, and I looked up and down the stairs was coming, Nelson Mandela, who'd overstayed his welcome, the Queen, because they were such great friends. And that's the point of made it,

it's such an interesting contrast. I mean, they were tremendous friends, they had a wonderful time together, and then life goes on. You know, it's just, onto the next thing. So that was a very interesting insight into the reality of life in the palace. But no, I think the thing I'd say about people like Robin and Robert and others, Clive as well, the trust between, as they call them, the principal and the private secretary is paramount. And there have been examples of private secretaries, not so much in the palace who simply haven't got on. I mean, famously, the Princess of Wells had a couple of private secretaries, and they simply didn't get on, and it just didn't work. And I don't think there's any other job

where that chemistry and that ability to combine with someone is so important, because without it, you just can't make it happen. And that's the downside of being a private secretary of courtier that sometimes if it doesn't work, it doesn't work quite dramatically. And you do. You sort of live in the pocket of your master or mistress. I mean, for example, there's got to be a private secretary with the monarch at Christmas all through the summer.

I mean, you talk to private secretaries past, and they'll remember how they, you know, They would be up at Balmoral for weeks on end in the summer. And often the late Queen and the King does this as well. They're allowed to bring their families up. They'll put them in a sort of cottage on the estate because you've got to be with them at sort of breakfast, lunch and dinner. There's always got to be a private secretary on the go at any time day and night.

That's why they have a team of three. And it can be absolutely anything. I mean, I think there's a sort of image of courteous as quite sort of crusty people sitting there spending ages, making decisions. You've got to move really fast. Suddenly something will blow up. well, there'll be either the death of the president of someone or rather, and you've got to send an immediate message.

And you often might have to think, well, who's going to go to the funeral? And at the same time, you're thinking one year, two years ahead. I mean, right now, for example, here we are in the summer of 2026. I'm quite sure that Clive and his team will be thinking ahead to things like the Commonwealth Summit coming up in the autumn in Antigua and thinking, okay, well, what are the pitfalls? What are the things that could potentially kind of go wrong? And tiny things can go wrong. I mean, with royal visits.

sort of deal with the big stuff. But with a politician, you know, there might be an issue of just, you know, who you invite to a particular garden party. You've got to remember, often it's things you don't do that get you into trouble. I mean, once I remember when the Royal Family had sort of singly failed to turn up to Euro 96, a football tournament, and nobody was very interested in football. It hadn't really occurred to anyone. Yeah, but it was a disaster for public opinion.

It's interesting, though, isn't it? They have to be there on call all the time. It's the reason why Sir Clive has a grace and favour pad in London so that he's very close to the king whenever he needs them. He travels with him, of course. You know, I've been with him on planes when he's been, you know, talking king, as Julian Payne would, you know, translating what the king thinks. You have to speak fluent king.

Exactly. You have to speak fluent king. But Patrick Jefferson always said he was an aide to the late Princess Diana, of course. You're not their friend. You have to remember. You're not their friend. But there is friendiness, isn't there, Simon? Because, you know, with the travelling court, you go where they go.

Absolutely. You were up in Balmoral with the late Queen. In fact, after I was appointed, I was invited to spend a few days in Balmoral with the family. In fact, the whole family was there. And when there was initiation ceremony, I don't know, but on the first night, we gather for drinks before going off to this famous barbecue, which isn't really a barbecue, because it's all pre-prepared. And I had, as is, the won't in Bar Mawar, a couple of stiff martinis. Why not? Join the family at it.

Very stiff, aren't they? Absolutely. Double strength, they used to say. And they said, by the way, we thought it would be a good idea if you traveled with the Queen to the Botha. And I said, well, that's fine. The Land Rover will be outside in 10 minutes. I'm fine. Okay.

So came outside, waited for the Queen. And I went towards the passenger seat. They said, no, no, you're driving the Queen. So I was driving the Queen in a range rover, two martinis to the wind over terrain. I didn't know anything about. And we had this extraordinary conversation about, I can't remember who it was. It might have been about Roosevelt or something. And I just remember thinking at that time, this is.

surreal, but as long as I can keep the lights on and keep the direction going. So you're absolutely right. It is that kind of relationship. But I do think, and I hope I did this as communication secretary, it does also mean that you have to be able to say, this is my best advice. I mean, if, and I think that's the key, you've got to be strong. And if you are, it's very difficult in any job, but particularly in the palace, ultimately, and we know some of the characters around the palace, you've got to be able to say, this is my best advice. And here are the reasons why you could or couldn't do it. One of the Queen's favorite phrases when I used to come up with sort of ideas to grand events at the palace was, we can't do that, Simon, that's far too grand for us.

Too grand for the palace. So you've got to judge your principle, as you say, but I think it is really important in a palace environment that the people who are the advisors know how far they're prepared to push it. And there have been examples, have the not Robert of courtiers who've effectively said, well, if that's not going to be accepted my advice, I'm not going to hang around. I mean, that's all you've got as your default position. And luckily, that doesn't happen. As a PR person, you sort of, you kind of have to, don't you? I mean, there are people who walked out after Andrew's disastrous news night interview. They didn't feel that they could credibly continue.

When they knew that was coming down the line and thought, hang on, you know, or people who were, weren't consulted. And the disaster sort of unfolded, really. So it just shows you when advice isn't listened to. Coming up. Prince Andrew, he would always go around and have tea with his mother on a Sunday when there were no officials around and go, oh, mommy, it's ridiculous. They're telling me, I can't do this. I'm sure you won't mind. Now, Simon, how does that experience contrast with your time within number 10?

I'm really curious to find out. Well, same red boxes. Same red boxes, same golden, different part of the golden triangle, a different corner. Well, I was always quite surprised in number 10 just how sensitive the people at number 10 were to what was happening in the palace. And, of course, the reality is many people from number 10 work at the palace. So I think there's a sensitivity in number 10, irrespective of the politics, the prime minister, of how. important a relationship is Gordon who say, Simon, you look after the palace, you know how the palace works. There was a kind of element of make sure. You can handle that. And the other thing is the kind

of theatre of it, which again Robert has written about, I mean, the weekly audience at the palace is, okay, not a huge amount is necessarily going to discuss, but the theatre of it, going to the palace, when the prime minister goes to the palace, Annie Burnham would have probably been a couple of times already. The private secretary normally goes to the prime minister. There's the audience, just the two principles. And then the private secretaries normally have a role. the undrinkable sherry in the private secretary's office and chat about what's happening and the things they need to talk about. So that kind of way in which to pick up Robert's point, the palace and number 10 work behind the scenes is incredibly important. There's a lot of,

as they say in the palace, a lot of business done in those quiet moments between the private secretaries. That's really interesting. That sort of side channel that's going on that people, we're not thinking about that often we're thinking about the main audience. I mean, Robert, But has there been any private secretary, do you think, they just really haven't worked out? There have been moments. I mean, in more recent... Even with Sir Clive, actually, I suppose,

because even Prince Harry was clearly not a fan. Then there are other senior members of the Royal Family who aren't, you know, a fan of Sir Clive Auditon. You know, he's stepping down when he's turned 60 in spring. What's going on there, do you think? Well, inevitably, as private secretary to the monarch, you are looking after not just your boss, you're looking after the whole institution.

And that can lead into true. tricky territory if there's a member of the family who's causing problems. I mean, Prince Harry being a classic case and Harry is very sharp about Clive in his memoir spare. I mean, Clive has never responded to it. That's the other thing. As a private secretary, you take the flag. You never respond. If things go brilliantly, it's all the result of your brilliant boss. If things ever go badly, it's... You see, the Queen's been very badly advised on this. So, yeah, you have to take the flag. You need... someone said to me to be private secretary, a crucial characteristic is low ego.

You know, if someone goes really well, you can never go, yes, well, I did think that was a rather good line of mine. You know, if there's a good line in a speech, it's the monarchs. That's the way it is. So, yes, there are moments where you do have problems with members of the family. And as I said, Harry definitely had his run-ins with the private secretaries. So did Prince Andrew frequently. I mean, he was a constant thorn in the side of the private secretaries because, you know,

they would be saying, whether it was Sir Christopher Geitz or Edward Young or Robin Jammerin or whoever, would be saying, look, sir, you really can't do this. And he'd be asked to sort of desist from something. And then he would always go around and have tea with his mother on a Sunday when there were no officials around and go, oh, mommy, it's ridiculous. They're telling me, I can't do this. You know, I'm sure you won't mind. And when she'd sort of basically be sort of bamboozled into going, oh, all right then. So, you know, you've got to handle that situation.

And it's tricky. I mean, and sometimes there is a complete falling out. I thought it was very sad in 1995. The Princess of Wales was leered into doing that dreadful panorama interview by Martin Bashir through utterly deceitful means. She led to the departure, of course, of Patrick Jefferson, who was a very loyal aide. A very loyal private secretary. She'd been sort of brainwashed into thinking he was somehow working against her by Bashir's duplicity.

but actually he had her best interest at heart and when she went ahead with the panorama interview he just said well I'm going to have to go and he resigned But that actually ties in then doesn't it those are preceding years to your time Simon because obviously we know what happened next Princess Diana tragically died the year after which the palace obviously took stock

and thought we're going to have to change what we do they came under a lot of flack for not responding quick enough when Princess Diana died, not responding to the public grief. A year later, you're brought in. What was the thinking there, do you think? They'd never had a PR person officially before, commsman. That was you. You were the first person to put them on that path.

I mean, the reality was it was a huge team effort. I think Robin Jammin and Robert Fellows and people like Mary Frances saw the need to think differently about the future of the monarchy. And there was this group called the Weirhead group, which Robert has written about, was the members of the family and their private secretaries who kind of created a sense of this is how we've got to change in various ways. So that was happening already. My feeling was

going to the palace at that stage that what had happened is that relationships between the palace and the traditional media were completely and utterly fractured and mainly with the tabloid press. And remember that in 1998, I think I've got the numbers right, the Sun sold five million copies a day. The Daily Mirror sold three million cobblers a day. Their grip on the public psyche, was absolutely unstoppable. Pierce Morgan famously said to me when I complained about a story, Simon, thanks very much. But every time I get a big raw story, it's 200,000 copies sold. I mean, that was additional copies.

That was the reality. It was front page news. It was off from front page news. There was a daily mail front page, wasn't there? A big splash, I remember that had the Queen holding a football. And it said, has the palace spin gone too far? And I was held responsible for that. I was at first.

I was in Colorado, Lumpur in 1998. What has he done now, I think, is said, as in what have I done now? It was Queen holds football, Queen signs football. We were all at the time as a Royal Correspondent at the time. We can laugh now, but it wasn't funny at the time. Well, it certainly was eye-catching. I mean, that was a period when, yes, when Simon was there at the palace, there was clearly an element of, I mean, the monarchy doesn't do rebranding, does it?

No, that was never the intention. It's not a brand of cereal or something. But it was definitely, I think it was a conscious move to show the monarchy, and particularly the queen, as more relatable. And sometimes the media got a bit over-excited. I remember once there was a sun front page saying Queen visits McDonald's. Yes, driving in the Rolls Royce. The Royal Rolls Royce happened to be going past for McDonald's.

And the picture was taken at a clever angle. So it did look like the Queen was sort of going through the drive-in lane. But actually she was just driving past to McDonald's. But you did, Simon, to your credit. You actually did, you know, put them back on a path. That was more relatable and moved them towards a new era. I think the Queen did an amazing job. The Queen, first of all, held her nerve on behalf of the institution of the family.

and the Queen got out there and did what she always did best, which was just connecting with people in a very queen-like way. The other thing I feel that was really important, and great credit to Prince Philip is in 1998, there were 100 million people only who used the internet, and I sat with him once, and he laid out for me a vision for using the web, the internet, to make the Royal Family much more accessible globally.

This was 1998. A lot of people thought it's another one of his ideas, will pop it in the bottom drawer, but he was right. Wow. And the royal website, which I oversaw when I was there, was really the start of the fundamental rebasing of the relationship. So people could get their information about the family institution, not just from great papers out there, the ones that Robert has written for, but also for, you know, just reaching out to people in a different ways. So that was incredibly important. And thinking about those roles, we talked about how important all those roles, how important you were, Simon, how important.

and other people were around the palace. How much power do you really think that they have to change the institution, to change the family, to drive the family forward? How much is it the monarch doing it themselves? I mean, the private secretaries can sort of drive it. So Simon's mentioned this committee called the Wayahead Group that was really the brainchild of Robin Jambrin in the 90s

and it preceded the death of Diana. And it really was a look at, it was more a response to the Anas Horribulus of 1992. That was the year I became a royal correspondent by accident. You were an accidental quarter. We all become accidental royal correspondents, myself included. And, you know, the start of that year was really quite a sort of peaceful one. It was the 40th anniversary of the Queen's reign.

It began with a rather nice documentary called Elizabeth R. Everything was sort of going okay. And then suddenly a succession of problems happened, driven by the breakdown of the York's marriage in the middle of a general election campaign. And then suddenly the Princess Royal got to. divorce. Then Andrew Morton's book came out, spilling all sorts of secrets about Diana's unhappiness. And then there were the pictures of Fergie Toplis or whatever on the pool side.

And then we got into the autumn and it was quite clear the marriage of the prince and princess of Wales was falling apart. They were getting separated. And then, oh no, the castle burnt down. And that's when the queen talked about her anisoribulus. And at the same time, there was a huge rower about royal money and tax going on. So it was this run of crises earlier in the 90s. So it was the private secretaries, who it was their job to think, well, how do we get out of this? And so they, after the Queen initially had agreed to pay tax, they sort of got rid of the royal finance issue, then they sat down to think about, well, what are we really for? And that was driven by the private secretary. So that is quite a lot of power, isn't it?

It's power. It's the power to give the advice. But ultimately, it's influence. I agree. You can only push it so far. And there is one other role we should actually acknowledge in all this, which is that the private secretary does sort of technically have a boss other than the queen, the overall head of the royal household, somebody called the Lord Chamberlain, who's a bit like a non-executive chairman in a company. So they're not there day-to-day, but they're very, very powerful in terms of steering things. And all through the 90s was this incredibly powerful, Lord Chamberlain, great man, Lord Early, David Ehrlich, childhood friend of the queen.

And he was so crucial, I think, in holding things together. And when people say that the monarchy was rudderless after the death of the Diana, it wasn't actually. David Ehrlich was very much on it. He was already drawing up plans for Diana's funeral. He was a key ally. So you need someone who's got the sort of, in that non-executive role, who can sort of lay the groundwork like David Ely did. And then it's the private secretaries who are the executives. You've got to come up with a strategy. But going back to your question, Kit, I think that every private secretary has been successful has realized one important thing. They're not there for very long. And the institution is. So even Clive, I would say,

who I think is going to be one of the most substantial figures in recent British history, it's 10 years. I mean, the institution will be around a lot longer. So I think as long as you appreciate that, I'd have to say some of the people who've been in and out of other places haven't appreciated that, you're going to be fine. What are they looking for next? What will the king need, do you think?

If you were putting that job spec together, Simon, what would you have from the ideal candidate on there? He's going to be a very hard act to follow, obviously, because that personal relationship has lasted for such a long time. I mean, Robert may have a different view. I think it's very difficult, and maybe I'm the exception to proves the rule, to go into the palace with no experience of the palace

or the institutions around it. It's such a particular environment. There'll be internal candidates, and there's a very strong internal candidates, private sector as there already. There'll be people who've been in and out of the palace who will be looked at. It may be they look at people who have had no experience at all,

but maybe I'm just getting caught. in my older age, I think it's very difficult to go into a job like that without at least having a feel for the mechanism, the mechanics, the style of the institution. And of course, ultimately, the king and the queen both have to be happy with the choice. And the other thing I would just say is that, you know, every sort of sovereign there's an arc of history, isn't there? So the king is now 77. The next private secretary say the next private secretary is in role for 10 years. That's to 87. I mean, you've got to ask yourself what kind of private secretary do you want? I mean, Edward Young, you mentioned Robert, was there, obviously at the moment of accession. For the years leading up to the death of the late queen, the rhythm of the work was completely different for what it was like when obviously Robin and Robert were private secretaries in the 1990s. That's just the reality. So it's a tough gig, but it's going to have to be someone who fulfills all those qualities we've identified. I do think it is one of the, if not the most extraordinary, interesting jobs in British public life. That's the reality.

And most powerful, I think. And in many ways, one of the most powerful, yes. But don't forget the Mac. Don't forget the child's Mac. And dog biscuits, if you're working for the late Queen, I expect. Absolutely. Well, that's all from us this week. A huge thank you to our guests, Robert Harman and Simon Lewis.

I could have carried on chatting for ages, but we've run out of time, unfortunately. And thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please do like, rate and share it wherever you get your podcast. because it really helps others discover the show. And don't forget, you can watch full episodes, as well as Royal News and Analysis, from The Times on YouTube. Just search for the Times Royals channel.

I'm away next week, but Royal will be back for you. Until then, thanks for joining us on the Royals. See you next time.