The Royals with Roya and Kate - Power, Pomp and Pictures

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Roya Nikkhah and Kate Mansey are drawn to the new and very red painting of King Charles and they use this first official portrait to also look back at images of old to predict the future direction of the monarchy. They analyse Roya's exclusive earlier in the week on reports that the King had agreed to a request from the Duke of Sussex to stay in a royal residence ahead of the Duke's trip to London - Harry, it is thought, choosing instead to stay in a hotel. The two editors discuss how they piece together the jigsaw of briefings, tip-offs and insights to make royal coverage possible. It is not, in the words of Kate, all 'hats and champagne'. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you think anyone's listening? Where? At the palace. There's one way we could find out. Ask them. They'd deny it. What then? Well, we say something so rude and so naughty and so controversial and secret, they have to comment.

Oh, yes. Good idea. I mean, I've got something. So what do we say? Actually, someone from the palace did contact me last time. On a WhatsApp message after they'd heard it. Saturday morning. I won't say who. I've got something. Go on. I need to whisper it. Go on, whisper it. Well, I mean, come closer because it's quite secret.

Okay, are you ready? Yeah. Right, here we go then. This is so much better than the first episode already. You're right. There's no script slowing us down. No awkward pauses. Kate? What? What page are we on?

The Royals with Roya and Kate. Roya Nikar, Royal Editor of the Sunday Times. And me, Kate Mancy, Royal Editor of the Times. Today, is the king becoming an icon by stealth? As the palace gives people your chance to have your own portrait of the king, and the king gets one of his own. And we look at the power of pictures as things hot up for the Brothers Royal, and Harry and Meghan beat the heat in Lagos. beat the heat in Lagos. It's episode two of The Royals with Roya and Kate and the title is Power, Pomp and Pictures. So many Ps, Kate, heaven help us. Last week we discussed first Harry, Duke of Sussex, then William, Prince of Wales and then Charles the King. Awkward. Wrong way round. We

broke protocol. We did, weren't we? Letters were written, Kate. Possibly. So this week we're going to get it right and start with the King. So, King Charles. Charles III, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of his other realms and territories, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the faith. Go Kate! Sovereign of the bailiwick of Jersey, such realm being anciently part of the Duchy of Normandy. Whoa. Lord of Man. Cool. And Kate, anything else? Admiral of the fleet and Colonel-in-Chief of the Welsh Guards.

Aha. So it's a tale of two sittings. So the portrait was unveiled this week. What did you make of it, Roya? With so much fanfare Kate so much fanfare if I had to pull that kind of drape off didn't he and he sort of muttered Christ as he stared backwards and and and and sources close to the king reiterated that this he was not saying Christ when he saw the painting it was just the effort of pulling off it was the effort of pulling it well he is still having cancer treatment well Well, what did I make of it? And it's a huge painting.

It's enormous. I thought I really liked the face. I think the likeness is brilliant. I think there's a lot of emotion in his face. I love the motif of the butterfly on his shoulder, which was the king's idea, which is supposed to represent his passion for the environment, but also metamorphosis you

know from chrysalis to butterfly representing the fact that jonathan yoh started painting him when he was prince of wales and obviously he's morphed into king and so much else going on around on around him in the meantime i don't love when you've got the red paint out afterwards and just splashed everywhere that i don't i don't i don't i'm i'm still coming to terms with the red red redness of it and i know the sort of red you know reflects you know his welsh guards uniform he's in the uniform of the welsh guards but there's something about a bit blood drenched isn't it i think feels a little it just feels almost a bit too dramatic for me and for me the sort of swirl of the red which I understand is supposed to sort of reflect you know life all going on around him it for me it detracts a little bit from the brilliant nuances he's got on his

face the face is brilliant it is a really good likeness and you can sort of see what he's thinking that Johnny Yeo's really been able to kind of look into his soul hasn't he and kind of bring that out but the redness it's really grown on me actually of look into his soul, hasn't he? And kind of bring that out. But the redness, it's really grown on me, actually, I have to say. I think it's, at first I saw it and I thought, what is he walking out of a burning building? You know, he looks like he's going out of an inferno. And I love that moment.

I've always loved that moment when members of the royal family, they unveil the portrait. You know, the Queen, the late Queen would sort of go, ew, but he had seen it two thirds completed. It wasn't a total surprise. No. He'd seen that. And then there was, did you see the palace broke their own embargo on it as well? Yes. Which was quite funny. Camilla liked it, didn't she? She did. Well, he's painted her as well. Yeah. Very flattering fingers for the King, I thought. He's good at fingers. No sausage fingers. No, no sausage fingers. And by the way, if anyone thinks we're being rude about the king's fingers,

the king himself referred to his sausage fingers quite recently. We're now allowed to talk about it because he said it himself. That embargo has been lifted. What was quite interesting was looking back at the pictures that Jonathan Yeoh has done of Camilla and Prince Philip, because they're very different to this one. They're much less dramatic. They're much more figurative pictures. I don't actually like the one of Camilla because she looks a bit granny,

granny-fied, which of course she is a granny. She loves being granny. Yeah, but it is a good likeness. The fingers are really delicate in Camilla's one, but I didn't love that as an image. He's on a very good one of the boss of Rupert Murdoch. Has he? Yeah. Oh, I should definitely look that one up and say it's brilliant. It's marvellous. I think you'll find it. It made me think a little bit and look back

at other portraits of monarchs. And I'm going to ask you what your favourite is, Kate, but I know what my favourite is. And it doesn't involve horses, you will be amazed. I am shocked to learn that. It's not the Van Dykes of Charles I on horseback. No, it's not. It is the Chris Levine photograph of the late queen with her eyes closed. Yes, that's a good one.

I absolutely love that image of the queen, and I hadn't realised how it came about, and so I looked it up this very morning, knowing we'd be talking about real portraiture. Done your homework. I have. And it was really interesting because when Chris Levine was commissioned to do this photographic portrait of her, he decided to do a hologram, a sort of holographic photograph. And he had these very advanced cameras that were sort of set all around her. And she had to sit incredibly still for eight seconds at a time for several sets of photographs to be got of her.

And the lights, because it was a hologram, were super bright. And so Chris Levine said to her, and they were in the drawing at Buckingham Palace, you know, ma'am, if you want to rest your eyes in between each take, that's probably a good idea because they'll get tired from the light. And so on his advice, she closed her eyes and that's when that photo was taken and he decided to go with that as the commission and for me it's quite brave it's one of the most powerful photographic images i can think of the queen and over more than 70 years of her reign it's because i just think there's something so serene and still but you can kind of you know she's wearing the crown and that a sort of white um sort of almost fluffy sort of gown right sounds like a dressing gown she's not wearing a dressing gown she's wearing the crown and that sort of white, sort of almost fluffy sort of gown.

It sounds like a dressing gown. She's not wearing a dressing gown. She's wearing like an extraordinary robe. But you can almost feel the stillness behind her eyes as she just takes sort of a few seconds from her insanely manic day. And I think that image is beautiful. So my favourite is the William and Harry when they're in their blues and royals by Nicky Phillips, which is in the National Portrait Gallery because it shows them formal... Is it still though?

Wasn't it slightly controversial that that was taken down in the rehang? It was, wasn't it? I think it was. Because 2009... Yes. It still belongs to them. It's still on their website. It's in the collection, but it was taken down in the recent rehang

and everyone sort of speculated and said, is that because of the rift? Well, they're shown kind of informal, formal, and I love that kind of juxtaposition. So Harry's sort of leaning, sort of sitting down on a table. William's kind of leaning against the wall. They're in their uniform, so very formal, but they're kind of caught and you look like you're walking past and you've just looked at them, caught them in a private moment. And that's what I like. I love that. And actually that may serve to be, that painting, a very, you know, might become even more historical because are we ever going to see, you know, a portrait done like that again where those two brothers ever come and, you know, sit down together and hang out and chat? But that's why these things are unlikely. Well, it is unlikely, isn't it?

But I think that's why these things are significant because we see a snapshot and it used to be the kind of Hans Holbein, Henry VIII images. But Charles is interesting as well because it is quite an informal image. He, you know, there's a vulnerable side to that face that Jonathan Yeo has painted. It's modern, you know that face that Jonathan Yeo's painted. It's modern, the fact that the colour is there, they've got the symbolism of the butterfly, the endangered monarch butterfly, which I sort of thought, is that a symbol of the future of the royal family? So they do kind of tell us, they're kind of snapshots in time, but historically very significant. And these things are going to hang on the wall for years and years to come. The timing is interesting of the unveiling of this new portrait of Charles because in the

King's Gallery opening this very week is an entire exhibition of royal portraiture, photographic portraiture. And it's photographs of the royal family from, you know, those very famous images of Cecil Beaton that he took of the Queen Mother, the young Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret to present day. And I think that, to go back to why it's important for them and the public, I suppose portraits of the royal family form a very important part of the public's relationship with the royal family and their view of them. And as you said, their view of their characters and how soft or thrusting they're depicted. And equally important, Kate, it's the official portrait, which is up for grabs if you are a public institution. That's right, Roya. So hospitals, close guards, job centres, universities.

Churches, Church of England ones, that is, and other public institutions. Not us then. So everyone else, Kate, can claim their free framed official portrait from June the 5th to mid-August. You have to pay for postage. That's got a portrait on it too. But the drama of the week was not to be found in the portrait galleries, Kate, but in real life. Let's take a look. William on the beach in Cornwall,

while Harry was flying thousands of miles away to Nigeria. And then there was the king and the prince photographed together looking lovingly at a helicopter. Ah, the genteel English drama of Middlewallop. So having just been discussing royal imagery and royal portraiture and the power of projected images of the royal family, that's a seamless segue into what we saw on Monday with that joint official engagement with the King handing over the colonelcy of the Army Air Corps to Prince William, who, yes, was a helicopter pilot for a very long time with the RAF, Search and Rescue, and then East Anglia Air Ambulance. But of course, the Army Air Corps helicopter pilot who served with the Army Air Corps was Prince Harry. And there was something very powerful about those images. And it felt like the royal family trying to sort of tell

us something about unity, you know, family unity at a time where we just had Harry visiting last week and we'll come onto that because again, so much fallout from that. And then there was, you know, the monarch, his heir, continuity, the future, the handover. Stability. his air, continuity, the future, the handover. Stability. It all felt quite choreographed in a very kingly and princely way, don't you think? It did, didn't it? It was when the king said that it was tinged with sadness

that he was passing over his colonelcy to Prince of Wales. But he made a point of saying what a great helicopter pilot he was and how he had loved being their Colonel for 32 years, he mentioned William. I just thought, no mention of Harry. Couldn't he just have slipped in a little mention of his son who served with the Army Air Corps in Afghanistan? It was so telling, wasn't it? I remember saying in my piece and online that there was no mention, the King didn't make any mention of Harry and everyone, you know, in the Twittersphere sort of said, why should he? You know, he's

not part of the royal family anymore. Well, he's not a working official royal, but he, you know, he's not a working member, but he is a member of the royal family. And this came straight after the fact that the King couldn't find 10 minutes, as we discussed last week, to see Harry when he came over. And then I just imagine Harry looking at his phone, seeing this play out, if indeed he was looking at the reports of this engagement, I bet you he was. I bet you he saw it. What's going through his mind?

Maybe he doesn't think, maybe he doesn't care because he's busy doing his own thing in Nigeria, which was when you talk, actually when you were introing that and saying there was these powerful images, I thought you were going to go into Harry, first all because they were to me the kind of standout images of that of that week it was a royal tour missing only one thing a working member of the royal family yeah because in every other sense you know welcomed by the chief of defense staff in Nigeria signing the official visitor's book.

It was a royal tour without the boring bits. They didn't have to sit for sort of three hours in the blazing sunshine to watch kind of troops go up and down. They just went straight in to do all the kind of fun, impactful, you know, great picture stuff, spoke to little kids, you know, did the official stuff, lots of frocks, state dinner type, you know, engagements. It was all there, wasn't it?

It was right from the Royal Playbook. It was all there. What did you make of that? I thought it was interesting sort of seeing the images of the King and William after we'd had the Royal Tour of four Royal Tours with, you know, minus, as you say, minus working members of the Royal Family, minus the British press, minus a load of diplomats and courtiers, which is just how Harry and Meghan like it. I think a lot of the commentary around those three days in Nigeria, a lot of the commentary was, look what the royal family have lost. Look at the opportunity that has been missed in terms of very popular, out in Africa, Harry andgan seemed to go down very well

and it did look very regal and you know we've heard they've given you know harry spoken to people magazine since at the end of the tour going you know we're going to do more of these by the way guys there's going to be more this space it was a big na na na na wasn't it it was and i i suspect you know the images of them doing a royal tour don't probably go down with a slight needling effect at the palace and with the King and with the Prince of Wales, because, you know, at the moment they're not doing big royal tours for, you know, the King isn't doing huge royal tours at the moment while he's recovering from cancer. And William is at home, obviously much more looking after Kate while she's recovering. But even before that, they had the Caribbean and

that did not go well, did it? Two years ago, you and I were out there for the Caribbean tour and that did not play out. There was all that kind of imagery. There were neo-colonial accusations against William and Kate. They were travelling in that Land Rover. It was very kind of old school imagery. You know, it was very kind of old school imagery. And then they went to Trenchtown in Jamaica and went up to that fence and shook hands with the little children through the fence. And that few of those images then went viral online. People saying, oh, you know, they're trying to keep, you know, the little children in Trenchtown away from them with this big fence.

It was unfortunate. I was there, I remember thinking, why are they going to do that? Because they actually did walk out of the football field where they were in, hence the fence, and go and meet people anyway. But it's that one image that sort of dogged the whole tour, really. It was that image, as you mentioned, the image of Kate in a white dress and them standing up in that Land Rover with a soldier driving it, that felt almost prehistoric. And what they were trying to do was sort of echo the imagery of the Queen's tour from decades before. But goodness knows why they were trying to echo that imagery, because that is of the past. It didn't play out the way they wanted it to. And then here's Harry.

Yeah. I suspect when the palace and the King and other members of the royal family look at those images of Harry and Meghan abroad, they just think, oh, you know, they're going down quite well. How does that make us feel? But I do think that even after a really successful overseas trip like that, Harry looks at William in combats, getting into a helicopter, being handed over the currency by his father. And I suspect that is probably a bit painful still for Harry, even though he might say publicly it's not. I suspect it probably still hurts him a little bit. I'm thinking a cup of tea, but maybe let's have that cup of tea peacefully without the fanfare. So before we leave Lagos and Harry and Meghan,

last week you said, Roya, that it might look bad if the King didn't reach out to the Duke of Sussex, his son, Harry. That is true. I did say that, Kate. And then I pick up Sunday Times, your paper. Yes. And then I read, the King agreed to a request from the Duke of Sussex

to stay in a royal residence for last week's trip to London, mindful that his younger son no longer has an official UK residence, friends of the monarch say. In the event, however, Harry is thought to have chosen to stay in a hotel during his three-day visit. He could have had two nights in a royal gaff and he said no. He could have had two nights, Shea Charles, and he declined. I thought... Because you can't get room service at 3am. I just thought last week that all the narrative right from Tuesday, from the moment he touched

down and we got that statement from Harry's spokesperson saying, it's not going to be possible for Harry to see his father. His father is too busy. He completely understands. Got other priorities. Brackets. He doesn't really understand. And it felt, you know, That set the mood music for the

whole week that Harry had said, you know, dad's pa is too busy to see me. And so that's sort of, you know, everyone, some people going, well, we agree with the King. Of course he's too busy to see him. You know, he's recovering from cancer. He's getting on with the job. And you know, Harry has been controversial in the past. And there were others who sort of thought, and we talked about it last week, is that really a good look for the king to not make time to see his son while he's here, regardless of what's happened in the past?

And I just thought there's something just didn't, there was something didn't feel quite right about this and dug away a bit deeper and dug away and dug away and found out that actually Harry had asked if he could stay in a royal residence. And Charles had said, yes, come and stay son, come and stay. And it'll be much. And as people close to the king pointed out, you come and stay in a royal residence near where I am, where I am, it's going to be much easier for me to see you given what's going

on with your diary and my diary. And the cancer treatment. And the cancer treatment. And that really turned everything on its head because the sort of narrative from Harry that, you know, I wanted to see my father, he's too busy to see me. Actually, the reality was Charles had said, yes, please do come and stay in a royal gaff and that will make it much easier for us to see each other. And so it was a completely different...

Quite a different tale then. It's quite a different tale. Someone at the palace told me that the king was bruised by that statement that Harry put out, which all plays into exactly why he's asked for... And now we know why. ...offered somewhere to stay. But what's still the clashing that still continued was, you know, Harry let it be known that he absolutely did ask to see his father. He put in a request well in advance of coming,

more than 28 days before the warning he gives to the Home Office and his father that he's coming because he has to ask for security. Absolutely adamant that he did. Charles's camp say, as far as we're aware, we didn't get a request. So, you know, still there's recollections may vary. That famous comment by the Queen, which you talked about last week, you know, neither side will cede an inch in terms of what actually happened. And, you know, I just thought it was very interesting to discover that actually Charles

had said he had opened, he had literally opened the door for Harry. And for whatever reason, Harry then decided, actually, I'm going to stay somewhere else. And I wrote that the King had decided to have a private meeting with David Beckham that week as well. So he had time for golden balls, the former England captain, but he didn't have time for Harry.

Discuss. But then, well discussed. Endlessly. Thousands of words. While in the office, someone said, well, wouldn't you rather hang out with David Beckham than Harry? I thought, well, I'll probably get a better story out of Harry. It's a bit sad, isn't it? It is really sad.

And your description of it was really interesting because it's like his office didn't speak to his office. And it's like, guys, can you not just pick up the phone? And I do think a lot of these issues could be ironed out if they spoke to each other more, but then there's trepidation on the King's part. Perhaps, you know, a little voice memo will wind up on the next Netflix show. That's why your story and my story and all this kind of jigsaw puzzle of trying to find out what really is going on with the royal family. So speaks to why our jobs actually are quite difficult. I know a lot of people in the newsroom think that the royal beat is kind of all hats and champagne and, you know, foreign jaunts, which happily some of it is.

Is that what your newsroom think? My newsroom don't think that. It's not what they say about you behind your back. it's not what they say about you behind your back um but because there are these different sites so hard to get information from someone and it's just trying to find out who's telling you what what position they are to be able to say that on any authority and what's in it for them to tell you so you've got harry's camp one thing, you've got the King's camp saying another thing. And that's difficult, right? It's a diplomatic tightrope walk, Kate, is how I would best describe it. And on that tightrope walk, you have to use your judgment on an almost daily basis in terms of the information that's coming in, how likely it is to be true, solid, how you then put that in the context of what else is being said

that might be incredibly different. And that's, for me, last week was every inch of that. It just, something didn't, it felt like something was missing. And sure enough, you dig away, something was missing. And it's instinct as much as it is kind of sources and information. You kind of, Harry's statement didn't quite sit properly, did it? It didn't sit well. And the King's lot bit saying they were bruised by it. So how does this story with Harry develop? What do we need to look out for? Him coming back, another opportunity to say,

no, I don't want to stay with you, dear. Another statement, another foreign tour. Well, I mean, we've had Harry doing a little debrief after his Nigeria tour saying, you know, it's really important we get out there and sort of see what people need. And so there will be more overseas tours for sure. That was a big watch this space, wasn't it? It was. It definitely was. But I guess, I suppose, you know, Harry's not back in the UK that often.

He doesn't come here that much. You know, in the last, over the last year, he's been here twice. So I suppose we need to look out for whether he's going to come back in the next few months, what opportunities there might be for him to come back to see his family, to see the King. You think he might be back in the next few months, what opportunities there might be for him to come back to see his family, to see the King. You think he might be back in July? Well, July, they're going to announce the winner of the next Invictus Games host. So will it be Washington or will it be Birmingham? And that will be a big announcement, I expect. And then at some point, if Birmingham gets it, as everyone I speak to here seems to be quite optimistic that they'll win it, he'll come back, he'll do the kind of one year out and, you know, there'll be that kind of

natural tie to the country in a way that there hasn't been in the past four years. So he'll have that kind of connection in that way if UK ends up hosting that Games in future. If he was to come back in July, the question would be raised again, is he going to ask to stay in a royal residence? Will the King say yes again? And at that point, will he take it up or will he turn it down? And when is the next meeting going to take place

between Harry and a member of his family? And I don't mean the Spencer family because they were out in spades for him when he came back. When is Harry Nets going to see his father, his brother, his uncles, his aunt? He didn't come to the last trooping last year, Trooping the Colour, the King's birthday parade.

It's very unlikely that he'll come this year and there aren't those kind of big opportunities where we would expect to see him anymore, are there? Because nobody does expect him to attend those family events. He just comes now in a private capacity for his charities, doesn't he, for charity events. So watch this space, I suppose. Yeah. Back to the King. We've seen him in his portrait in the Welsh Guards uniform. We've seen him in the military engagement with William. But most people will see him in his grey coat tails and his pink waistcoat, as we've seen this week. Dapper. Dapper, dappy. Looking very dapper at the garden party.

So many parties at the palace. We've had the service at St Paul's Cathedral, got garden parties galore. It's that kind of time of year again. And the King's been doing a lot. He did the investiture. Didn't he do five engagements in a couple of days he did yeah i mean he's ramping it up isn't it he really is he's and they said don't expect a full you know it's full schedule full summer schedule from the king wow well he's turned it out with bells and whistles you know what my quote the week last week was kade gone it was the king doing his first military engagement saying how good it felt to be out of his cage oh yes i know why you would like that royer why was that kate was it because the week before i'd said a friend had described him as being like a caged lion and that was our headline

yes it was he read my story now i'm out now i'm out i'm roaring and i'm not roaring um but but it goes back to sort of he you know, as you said, the palace said, don't expect a full summer. This looks like a full summer programme to me. I think they're trying to kind of rein him in as well,

aren't they? No pun intended. No pun intended. Will he ride on Trooping? Anyway. No. He won't. I don't think he will either.

Yeah. No. Back to the garden party. And this is not just any old garden party, Kate. This was a garden party for the fanfare, creative industries. So basically a load of celebs at the palace having cucumber sandwiches with no crusts, cups of tea in their best frocks. And there was a particularly brilliant encounter between the King and Maya Jama, presenter of Love Island, wasn't

there? Yeah. The King had a lesson in popular culture, didn't he? When he met Love Island presenter, Maya Jama. Love Maya Jama. And she said to him, I present Love Island, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of that. As I described in the Times, he gave what I said was a diplomatic, gentle shrug. It's a kind of like... Was it a bemused shrug, Kate? It was a bit of a kind of, well, you know,

would you really expect me, 75-year-old King Charles, to be watching Love Island? And then he said, well, there's one born every minute, which I think means there's so many youngsters coming up, I can't keep track of whatever you're interested in. But I bet Camilla's seen it at least once, don't you? I reckon Camilla tunes into Love Island oh she must you reckon she'd like she likes Strictly doesn't she she does all that stuff

she does like Strictly I bet you and King's at Highgrove and she's at Raymel she's tuned into Love Island she's got a glass of wine and she puts Love Island on I reckon I reckon I hope so let's ask her when we next see her when she can get her on the podcast anyway Camilla will you come on the podcast um Maya of courseilla, will you come on the podcast? Maya, of course, whose boyfriend is the popular rapper Stormzy, looked very glamorous in a checked blue dress and a striking and matching white brimmed hat. Striking and matching. Actually, King and Queen were striking and matching, weren't they?

Because they both had pink. Yes. She had a pink dress and he had a pink waistcoat. And then Camilla said that it was an accident. They hadn't planned it like that. They didn't get the memo. They didn't send each other the memo pink on pink.

No. Her office didn't speak to his office. Pick up the phone guys. Anyway. Get them on the show. Come on Maya. Maya and Stormzy.

That would be a show. That's a royal pairing. I mean they're royalty anyway aren't they? Practically. Pretty much. Practically. Pretty much.

Before we go, some feedback. From the palace? Higher, Kate. New York? Higher, your brother's mother-in-law's friend's sister. Oh dear. She can't work out who's who. She says you sound like me. You mean you sound like me?

I really don't. I don't. So I'm going to say Kate, so they know it's you next. And I'm going to say Roya, so they know it's you next. There is no one else here. Kate. Roya. Kate.

Roya. How long do we have to do this? Until people spot the difference. Thank you, Roya. See you next week, Kate. Bye, Roya. Bye, Kate. I think that's quite sweet.