The Royals with Roya and Kate - Queen Elizabeth II: 100 years on - what is her legacy?

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

On what would have been Queen Elizabeth II’s 100th birthday, we look back at the life and legacy of a monarch who came to define an age.Beloved by millions but a century after her birth, harder questions are being asked: about the institution she led, the problems left unresolved at the end of her reign, and how history should judge her.Roya Nikkhah is joined by The Times's executive editor Jeremy Griffin, and Lord Robin Janvrin, the late queen’s former private secretary and chair of her memorial committee, about the public sovereign and the private woman behind the Crown.The US state visit is next week. Can the King help repair the 'special relationship' with President Trump? Get in touch: [e-mail]: GettyProducer: Robert WallaceExecutive Producer: Daniel Box Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals, the podcast where we discussed what happens behind palace walls and why it matters. I'm Roya Nika. This week marks what would have been Queen Elizabeth II's 100th birthday, and the royal family is commemorating the centenary of a monarch who was the ultimate anchor of British life. There's a major exhibition at Buckingham Palace, the announcement of a permanent memorial in St James's Park, and a wider programme of tributes that paints a picture of a queen who's due to, defined her reign. But this centenary also comes at a more complicated moment too. More than three years on from her death, while she remains a deeply treasured figure, her legacy is also being

judged in the light of issues left unresolved at the end of her reign, most notably, of course, the scandal surrounding her son, Andrew. So, a hundred years after her birth, has the legacy of Queen Elizabeth's reign changed? Kate's away this week, but later in this episode were we joined by someone who saw the machinery of that rain from the inside. Lord Robin Janvrin worked alongside the Queen as both her press and private secretary for two decades and is now the man tasked with chairing her memorial. But first, I'm delighted to be joined by the Times executive editor and friend of the podcast, Jeremy Griffin. Jeremy, welcome back to the Royals. Thanks, Royal. Lovely to be here. Very good to see you. Now, before we speak to Robin, it's a very

big week for the royal family because there's been so much going on in terms of commemorating this landmark moment. There's been an opening of a fashion exhibition at the King's Gallery. We've heard tributes from the King and Queen. We had a message from the King in a broadcast talking about her constant, steadfast and wholly devoted approach to her reign. It's not about revisionism, isn't it? It's about fixing a memory. How do you think the Royal Family are trying to do that? I think you're right. It is about fixing the memory. It's about reminding people. Lord Roy, I think, of everything that she stood for throughout her 70 years on the throne. And given the precarious nature of world events at the moment, I think it's about trying to put a

hand on the shoulder of the nation a little bit, actually. She was a continuous presence through all of our lives. And when she passed away, we didn't know what the next few years were going to be like. And Charles has done, I think, a really good job of picking up the mantle. But in a sense it's quite handy The Centenary has come sort of only three and a half years after she died because I feel that the Queen's presence is actually needed again by members of the Royal Family, not just for the Royal Family, but for the country as well.

And I think that's what the King has tried to do over the last few days remind the nation that I don't know, she's not so far away if you like. It's interesting you talk about the fact that you and others feel that the Queen's sort of constancy is needed at a time now. We're in quite turbulent times politically. geopolitically, the royal family's been in a real state of flux and scandal will come on to that. It felt like in his message the king touched on that because there was a quote in there where he talked about the fact that his mother would have been deeply troubled by the times that we live in.

He said, I'll read the quote. He said, much about the times we live in now, I suspect may have troubled her deeply, but I take heart from her belief that goodness will always prevail and that a brighter dawn is never far from the horizon. Now, when we got that message from the palace before it was put out, we were told, don't read too much into it. Don't overcomplicate it. Don't try and read scenarios into it. But it was in there. What did you make of that? Yeah. Yeah. So let's do exactly what they didn't want. Let's. We're journalists. It's what we do. Well, look, she was a woman who lived by the common book of prayer. She wasn't on the throne, obviously, but lived through the Second World War when her father was on the throne and led the nation through that. And I think she would have been

extremely disquieted by events of the past couple of years, not just with regards to wars in the Middle East and in Europe and so on, but with regard to the political tunnels as well, I think, and our relationship with the United States, so on and so forth. So I think she would have found something to say to us, if you like, to reassure us that the future wasn't going to be so bad, had she been around today? And perhaps that's what the king was trying to convey with those words in the documentary.

Do you think with the message he gave, the national and public address, the tributes we've heard from him, do you think that by evoking the Queen's sort of constancy and harking back to her steadfastness and really kind of reminding people of what she was and what she stood for, do you think he's trying to channel a little bit of Elizabeth's steadfastness himself in his own room? Definitely. I think that's, and I think it works both to his benefit and to ours as well, actually, because the queen has left a gaping hole. As well as we think Charles has done since he became king. He's not her.

He's not her. And it's obviously reassuring for him to be able to channel those emotions and words that she might well have spoken herself. But I think he also thinks that it's a benefit to the nation if he does that as well. Do you not think it reminds people of what we've lost? Yeah, possibly a little bit. But it's only a few years.

And I think Charles still has an enormous amount of public sympathy, not just because, you know, he has, if you like, picked up the mantle at quite a late stage in life himself and he's been ill and had to go through whatever treatment he's had to go through. And he's got the other matters that have been going on with his family that we'll no doubt talk about as well. But I think there's a groundswell of sort of public goodwill towards Charles. And so we allow him to channel his mother's thoughts and words and emotions, I think. We can't not address the fact that the centenary comes at quite a difficult moment for the royal family. I mean, the Queen is still, the late Queen is still a very treasured public figure. A lot of people who are for the monarchy think of her very fondly. But there's no doubt that the Andrew question continues to come back. And her legacy is being slightly looked at again in light of that. To what extent do you think that is changing people's perception of her legacy?

Well, it definitely is changing it. Well, the long-term effect, I think we still don't know. And I think a lot of that will depend on what happens with regard to Andrew and investigations into him. And we have to see where that story ends before we know how it affects the way that we remember the Queen. But clearly this has been the most difficult time for the royal family over the last, really in the three and a half years since you died,

since the abdication of Edward VIII. Some people were saying that Andrew's arrest, if you like, a couple of months ago was actually an even worse crisis for the royal family than the abdication of Edward VIII. Well, should, of course, remind listeners and viewers that Andrew has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office, but he denies all wrongdoing. That's exactly right. And we do have to see that story out before we make a judgment on the Queen's legacy, but clearly it has affected it because, you know, we know about things like the

article settlement with Virginia Juffray that the former Prince Andrew struck and that the Queen reportedly helped to fund. That can't do anything other than have an effect on her legacy in the way that she's remembered. Whether or not it becomes, if you like, the most important thing about her, one would hope not. But I think we do have to see how this story plays out before making that call. I mean, we've had a UGov poll out recently that shows she's still the most popular role ahead of William, ahead of Kate, ahead of Diana.

She's still hugely popular, revered by many people, a bit more questioning around, you know, some of her judgment calls in recent times in light of what we know. But why do you think Elizabeth, who had this record-breaking way, Why do you think she still holds that very sort of important pull on the British public? With regards to the gravitas that she has and the ongoing legacy that she exhibits, I think, you know, she was on the throne for 70 years. She was around before any of us were born.

She saw the nation through that post-war period, a huge social and economic upheaval. And then in her latter years became, I know it's a cliche, but I'm going to use it, she became a grandmother to. the nation, you know, with the way that she sort of engaged, if you like, with the modality of 21st century Britain. I think people appreciate that. She was, if you like, an anchor for the country that we could all look to and not literally put our hand on for decades. And we do miss that now. Well, when it comes to fixing the memory of the queen,

few things matter more than a memorial. Because how do you begin to capture Queen Elizabeth's public legacy in a single national tribute. Well, we're thrilled to be joined by the chair of the Memorial Committee and a close advisor to the Queen for two decades, Lord Robin Jan Wren. Robin, welcome to the Royals. Thank you. Robin, you have been tasked with creating and advising on a memorial that is really a lasting legacy to the Queen and few things matter more than a memorial, something people can come to, can reflect on, can remember, can. think about how she sat in public life.

What was the story you guys were trying to tell with something like that? That was a question we started with. And I think we wanted to say something obviously about the role, about the person. But we wanted to say something about her values and her sense of pragmatism, her sense of duty, above all, her sense of public service. And really in trying to develop our ideas, we wanted to get beyond simply a figurative statue somewhere to something that would give public benefit would be useful that she would feel was serving the nation. We looked at what came to be three different projects.

One was a physical memorial in St. James's Park. We also developed the idea of a legacy program in terms of a charity program. And then over and above that, we were looking at how can we make this of her time, of our time. And we developed this idea of a digital memorial. We were in Scotland talking about ideas with a group in Edinburgh who reminded us of the Scottish tradition of building a can, of laying a stone in people's memory, so that over time you build a big stone pile. And we said, how can we develop that idea? And so that was the origin of our exploring this idea of a idea of a big stone pile. digital memorial. Can I just ask? You mentioned just there a set of values that you want to try and convey.

What were and what are those values of the late queens that you want to be represented in this memorial? Above all, this sense of public service, a sense of serving the nation, day in, day out. And that was very strong in our minds, but also have pragmatic common sense. And also, have pragmatic common sense and also her sense of humour, her openness, to convey all of those in various ways, was really the challenge. So what has been decided and really finalised and will come to fruition is there's a standing bronze statue of the late Queen with a sort of matching one of Prince Philip just set slightly behind her, facing towards the Mal. There's a cast glass bridge. Yes.

which is inspired by the tiara that she wore on her wedding day. And there's slightly more abstract work by Yenka Shonabari of the Commonwealth Wind sculpture. Now, when the designs were sort of first put forward, and it was first announced that the legacy project in the memorial, there was this very majestic image of the queen on horseback that would be the sculpture, the statue, that was designed going into the Lord Norman Foster Memorial. He's designing it. Can you explain why that has shifted away from that? that image. This was a huge subject of debate and consultation and we moved to a standing statue

for a number of reasons. One is that if you're on a plinth and on a horse, you're distancing yourself. That's the whole point of being on a horse in, if you like, parade terms. And we felt that didn't really reflect her. emphasis throughout her reign on access, bringing television into the coronation, introducing the walkabout, opening Bucking Pallet, this access point was one. The other was that being on a horse was really part of her private life. Yes, she was famously there at Trooping of the Color, but that was one military event in the year and less than half the rain. So in terms of her head of state role, horses were not a huge part of that.

They did make her very happy, though. When I joined the palace, I had, if you like, a job interview. And I had a cup of tea with the late queen. and in the course of that interview, I said to her, ma'am, you must understand I know next to nothing about horses. And I'll always remember this. She said, I think you'll find that to your bond. So in a way, she didn't see that as what I, you know, I was part of her official life. Jeremy, what did you most, you know, the woman, everyone had a view on the late Queen,

you're on this patch whether you worked alongside her or not. In terms of her legacy, her lasting legacy, and what we're seeing in terms of the designs, what did you make of them when you saw them revealed? I think they reflect her life and times really, really accurately and positively. I think they do a great honour. It's really interesting to hear Robin talk about how it was important to reflect some of the modernity of a latter years, if you like. She was on the throne for so long, right?

from 1952 to 2020. The changes that she saw are mind-boggling, I think, really. And I was actually going to ask, because I was very interested in the scale of the challenge. Because at some point, Robin, you and others sat down with a blank sheet of paper and said, how are we going to encapsulate the life of someone who lived from 1926 to 2022,

spent most of that time on the throne, and saw huge economic and socioeconomic change throughout that period? Yes. it was a very daunting blank sheet of paper initially. But there are so many aspects of her life that we could have tried to explore. The question was, how do we refine that down to some of these key concepts of service? And the point you made continuity and stability in a time of huge economic, social political change.

And I think those kinds of values were what guided us from the start. Coming up, we'll move from Queen Elizabeth's public legacy to her private one and asked Lord Jan Wren what she was really like behind the palace doors. We'll be back after this. You worked alongside her for the best part of two decades

at the palace as press secretary, then as private secretary. on a day-to-day working experience with the Queen, and we were just talking about all the trips you did with her. What was your experience of her as a woman and a boss to work with? She was decisive, the sense you could discuss anything with her. She never shot the messenger, if I can put it like that. I do remember you weren't saying to me she was unshockable

when you used to have to take the tabloids to her and the Wild West back in the days. I remember you saying that. Yeah. It's quite often difficult to, bring bad news to people, but she was wonderful in that sense because she'd seen it all by the time I was working for her. And it was just feeling that she would do the boxes. You knew where she was. You knew what she wanted. She was very clear in what we had to deliver. So that

made working for her an absolute joy. Robin, I was going to ask you, you know, as check, of the memorial. You're helping to shape how the late Queen will be remembered in public life, right? Not just for the next few years, but for the next century, or the centuries even. Yeah. When you think about the public legacy, what comes to mind? What will she be remembered for in a hundred years' time? I think it will be the way that she gave a sense of stability at her time of huge change in the country. But I think the other thing, and this is a challenge for her official biographer. Dr. Anna Key, who's been announced as week. But the monarchy

evolved during her reign in terms of accessibility, but also what someone described as a public service monarchy. The institution is there to make a contribution. Duke of Edinburgh's Ward, Princess Trust, Royal Foundation. And I think that that was huge and important. The other thing, and this is more your world rather than mine, was how do you be the monarch in a celebrity culture? Yeah. How did she feel about that? I think, I don't think she saw it in those terms, but I think she was very much less is more. She didn't make a great point of giving interviews or making her thoughts public,

but she knew that by doing that, when she did say something, we will meet again in the middle of COVID, it had much more effect. Yes. And so less is more in terms of opinions, but a huge visual presence, day in, day out, engagements out there talking to people.

She seemed to be quite adept, though, at mixing that less is more message, which I agree, the COVID address had great resonance. It will live with us for many years. But she seemed to be able to mix that talent with an ability to kind of understand the modern age as well. So I think notably of the Olympic Games in 2012 and that whole routine.

with James Bond. And then latterly, the Paddington sketch that marked her platinum jubilee. She obviously understood that that was part of the gig these days. You put your finger on it. She, I think, towards the end of her reign, realized that very occasionally

it was worth moving on to that sort of territory. And both those two events you mentioned, I mean, they're about Britain, James Bond and Paddington. And yeah, she knew what she was doing. Can I ask, Robin, by the end of the Queen's record-breaking rain as our longest-raining monarch, I think most people felt they understood her values that you've described, steadfastest constancy, public service, but very few people outside her private circle knew her as a woman. And a lot of people thought that was part of her great success as monarch,

that she was quite unknowable in a sense that you didn't know her private judgments, you didn't know her private views, on politics, on society issues of the, day. As you come to her centenary now, there are more books coming out about her. We hear little more nuggets about what she might have thought of certain things. Do you think that sort of public mask almost is a sort of necessary

requirement for an effective monarch? Or can it sometimes be a bit of a limitation in making people feel a bit distant from them? She was of her time and the fact that she came to the throne at such an early age. That was what she did from the start,

if you like. I think it would be extremely difficult to work in that way in the future. I mean, the king has, I hugely admire the way he's moved from his wonderful role as Prince of Wales to this fantastic, calm presence as our king. In terms of someone who worked her closely with her, and we have a very public memorial that's underway, in private, was she quite different to the public sort of presentation of monarch? The woman, Elizabeth?

Yes and no. You could never forget that she was the queen in a sort of Balmoral barbecue doing their dishes or to being behind her in the centre room at Buckingham Palace. You could never forget that. But her humour, her opinions, her views were much more freely available.

Well, it is so wonderful to hear your insight into a life very well lived and the queen very much missed. Thank you so much, Robin. Thank you. Just listening to Robin talking about what they're trying to achieve with the memorial, that sense of public duty, public service, steadfastness, constancy, but someone who they didn't want people to think was to remove from public life. We are, as we just talked about, we're in a very different scenario now with the royal family. Things feel much less steadfast, you know, both with the institution and people's perception of it.

I mean, how much of a problem do you think the royal family are now facing without that grandmother of the nation kind of protecting the institution? Because I think she did. I think people didn't ask the questions, didn't challenge the monarchy as much as they did when she was around. Yeah. I think it is a problem for them, but they are taking steps to mitigate that problem

in slimming down the royal family, for instance. Well, the royal family is slimming itself down. Well, that's true, yes. Yeah, that's a fair point. Although, you know, clearly we know that the king and the Prince of Wales have taken steps to ensure that if you like, the more troublesome members of the royal family are kept out of the limelight as much as possible. I mean, on that slimming down point, the family photo that was released on Tuesday, the centenary day of the king, the queen, the Waleses, the Duke of Kent, the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Alexandra and the Princess Royal. Those are the working royals. But apart from William and Kate, they are all of an age.

It wasn't a sort of young, diverse picture, was it? And there's been a lot of commentary around that photograph. Does that present, in stark terms, the challenge that the monarchy have ahead of them because we have no Harry and Megan anymore, who, whatever you think of them, represented a different approach to monarchy. Obviously, Andrew is out of public life. Isn't that the problem? Yes. In terms of being relatable and relative. Yeah, of course. I mean, it shouldn't have come as any great surprise that the raw family looks like that.

I mean, all these people have been around for a long time. But, you know, that's going to be the challenge really for the Prince of Wales when he takes to the throne, more so than it is for the king. And he's going to have to shape not just his own reign, but he's going to have to help his son prepare for that as well. Who knows what age George will be when he becomes king? He will have grown up entirely in the 21st century, but I'm sure that he will be aware of the work that his father is doing to try and modernise the raw family, ensure that it is fit for purpose for 21st century Britain.

Because I really like that photograph, that family photo, mainly I think because it was a reminder, if you like, of everything that's been steadfast and helped to hold a nation together over the last 50, 60, 70 years or so. But things are changing. and I think George will, I'm sure he won't be too old before he learns that his monarchy will be very different to his fathers, who will be very different to his fathers. And let's face it, the king's monarchy is completely different to the queens.

True. Well, with her passing, though, I think the public's approach towards the monarchy has definitely shifted. You can feel it. We can feel it when we go on engagements. We now see members of the royal family quite regularly heckled about the Andrew issue, not just the king and queen, but William and Catherine. We didn't see that, you know, under the last reign with the Queen, even when things about Andrew started to emerge. I think something has shifted.

Something has gone with her passing. I think that's right. It's interesting. It was almost as though she was the last vestige of the age of deference, really, because you can't imagine her being heckled in the way that the king has been at public events that he's appeared at recently. But the other royals, for all the good that they do and the hard work that they do, they don't have the same hold on the public affection that she had.

And to be honest, I don't think any of them ever will either. I think we have to accept that she was a one-off. She's very different to her predecessors, of course, as well. If you look at those who came before her, her father was obviously a great servant to the nation, but not a well man and didn't rain for a particularly long time. Her uncle was on the throne for five minutes. But, you know, going back to the turn of the century after Victoria,

you know, Edward the 7th, there's a wholly different character. In fact, much more in line, perhaps, with a couple of modern royals, if you like, than those who have come in between. So I think she carries a lot of respect for the way she conducted herself throughout that 70 years. But I'm not sure that anyone else could have done it that way.

In terms of the late Queen's legacy and how it stands now, how she's viewed, what you think about her, what are your thoughts? Oh, I think, look, her legacy is still a strong one, and I think she still has that sort of grandmother of the nation feel to her. it's not even four years actually since we celebrated her platinum jubilee and those memories haven't diminished obviously there are challenges and we've spoken about those they relate to what's going on with other members of the royal family and notably with andrew how that reflects upon the way that she managed that situation if you like

but we have to see how that story plays out before taking a final judgment on it i i think in a way it's quite nice that we're able to celebrate her centenary not that long after she died because we've missed this feeling of her being around us. And although she's not there anymore, you know, in a physical sense, we are still talking about her. We're remembering her life of duty, which is quite an important message to get across at the moment, I think, with the way things are. I agree. I think, I mean, for us, when we talk about her and we write about her, when we broadcast about her, she's still blockbuster. There is still a huge appeal that she holds. And I still think that the monarchy, however much the king now tries to reframe it and reshape it in his own way, and however much we hear Prince William talking

amount changes coming down the line, changes on my gender. I think a lot of the monarchy is still, you know, the public still view it in the sort of frame of the Elizabethan era. As much as acknowledging that it needs to change, there is still this feeling that she was the queen, the sort of, you know, in the defining modern era. And I think that's a good thing for the nation, but I think it's a challenge for the current king and the future king in terms of shaping it in their own way. And I also I think it can be dangerous because I think it has opened the monarchy up to that the previous reign was steadfast. Events have made it a little bit more, I don't know, uncertain. But I think in terms of her legacy, there's values that Robin talked about, steadfastness, continuity, you know, a woman in a man's world who carved her world, which we heard the queen talking about.

I think those are great, great things. And I think, you know, a lot of people have said, should be renamed as, you know, or remembered as Elizabeth the Great. Why not? I think she earned that nickname. Jeremy, it's always great to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, that's it for this week. My thanks again to Jeremy Griffin and to Lord Robin Jandran for joining us on this episode. If you've enjoyed it, do subscribe wherever you're listening on podcast platforms or on YouTube so you don't miss what's coming up next week. And next week, we're bringing you a very special episode. from Washington, D.C. as the king and queen travel to America

for the state visit. Until then, thanks so much for joining us on the Royals, and we'll see you next week.