The Royals with Roya and Kate - The King and the Emperor

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

In April, the King's invitation to their Majesties The Emperor and Empress of Japan to pay a State Visit to the UK was accepted and scheduled for late June, with the King and Queen hosting at Buckingham Palace. But after the Prime Minister's surprise decision to call a snap election within weeks, what now happens to the soft power of a State Visit and why do they actually matter? And a look ahead to one of the summer season highlights - Royal Ascot. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's The Royals with Roya and Kate. With me, Roya Neekar, Royal Editor of the Sunday Times. And me, Kate Mancy, Royal Editor of the Times. And we have with us this week Hugo Vickers, a writer, broadcaster, playwright who describes himself as a royal hierophant? Yes. A high priest who can interpret sacred mysteries, useful for making sense of all things royal, which is precisely what we need, isn't it?

We do. And, allegedly, he has his own moat. Used to. Used to? They don't have to tell us about that. What happened to the moat? The house got sold. Oh.

Ten years ago. Was there a drawbridge? No, but there was, no, it was a nice stone bridge, but it was rather fun going over a moat, I must say. I bet it was so regal. When there's sort of historical knowledge missing in my oeuvre, which there very often is, Hugo, I ring you and you always know the answer.

You do. Well, I don't know much about anything else, but I go back a long way now, I suppose. It's a hugely important time for charles election or no election d-day 80th anniversary trooping the color and royal ascot and possibly probably hopefully as we record this we don't know yet because it hasn't been confirmed a state state visit from their majesties, the Emperor and Empress of Japan, Emperor Naruhito and Empress Masako. And we are here with Hugo Vickers, the expert on all these things, who's about to tell me that I've just pronounced those names wrong, I expect. Hello, Hugo. Welcome. So this is the state visit that has been postponed already from spring 2020. Inward state

visit from Japan. Very important diplomatically. They've waited four years for this and now it looks like it's still to be confirmed because we have a situation where we're preparing for the general election. All royal engagements are subject to change or postponement. But they've waited, they were supposed to come over and meet the Queen. And now they've been told that perhaps they might not be meeting the King. I mean, what's your take on whether that will take place? My bet is that it will happen because I think that the negotiations will have been enormous and the planning will have been going on, as you say, for many years. And it's a very important thing. And it's a diplomatic, it's a sort of diplomatic level.

I mean, a state visit obviously has a political implication, but theoretically it's above politics. The two heads of state meet and entertain each other because the king will obviously give a state banquet for the emperor and the emperor will give a return banquet somewhere, the embassy or clariches or whatever. And that's very important. And this is sort of paving the way for good relations later. And what the late queen always did, I mean, I always think two things I wanted to call her, Elizabeth the Steadfast or Elizabeth the Conciliator. And conciliation has been always this great message that she had. State visit of President Heuss of Germany in 1958.

We cannot change the past, but we can build bridges to the future. Later on, of course, with Ireland and with all these other countries. And Japan, crucially, because of the terrible things that happened in World War II, the most important thing is, and that has been going on obviously for decades, is that we should get to know each other, make friends with each other and make sure that these things don't happen again. And that is the purpose of a state visit. It is. And diplomacy is deployed, you know, very widely, but it is political because state visits happen at the request and the invitation of the government. And once all that sort of, you know, very visual

diplomacy is done, the business gets to work government to government. And, you know, the Japanese government will start negotiating and liaising with our government to cut trade deals, to talk about, you know, all sorts of mutual interests. That's really what those state visits are for. Of course, they're about building bridges diplomatically with our allies around the world and repairing, you know, some previously historically damaged relationships, which we have done with Japan. But, you know, I don't think you can just, I think it's, I suspect you're right. And there'll be a lot of will to make this state visit happen. But it will be, there'll be some quite interesting wording

in the way that it's phrased to make it non-political because state visits are about politics. Well, definitely the wording obviously will be crucial. But I think also that, to be quite honest, if I was the cabinet secretary, let's say, or advising there, would make sure that the leader of the opposition had a very good chance to meet the people that come with the emperor, because he may very well be the next prime minister.

But two for the price of one. So in a sense, they can take that on board. And I mean, invariably, anyway, the leader of the opposition does have a chance to meet the incoming state visitor. I mean, they sometimes have a meeting. Obviously, sometimes they go to Downing Street, but there's plenty of opportunity for that. And I'm sure that everybody, if everybody is sensitive about that, there's absolutely no reason why the visit can't go ahead. And not only that, be a great success. We saw that with the inward state visit of south africa didn't we early on in the rain where we had the state banquet but then of course

it wasn't just prime minister um it was leaders of the opposition as well always involved in in that and um you know and when of course you get a sort of very socialist um government sending somebody over they're they're going to want to talk to the Labour Party as much as, if not more, than the Conservatives. I mean, there will be huge disappointment, I would imagine, with Japan if the state visit would be cancelled. Because so many heads of state around the world speak so often about the impact of the state visit. I mean, the pictures, you know, of incoming heads of state in the carriage, down the mall, with the sovereign's escort, with the king and, you know,

all the pomp of the household cavalry going down to the palace. I mean, the images are huge for whatever. We put on a fantastic show. We do, and no one does it better. And I think that'll be very, I mean, I remember, you know, Donald Trump really gunning

for a state visit after his working visit the previous year. He wanted those images beamed around the world of him with the queen and the carriage and the household cavalry. And he really got it, didn't he he because they rolled out the red carpet they do for everyone they didn't yeah but he had it seemed that he had all sorts of things going on didn't he

he met the prince of wales um as was then and and the queen and yes american presidents don't have the carriage procession they do they they arrived you remember by helicopter because of security i mean when there's a state and he scorched her lawns. I've got a great story. Yes, exactly. She was absolutely fuming. And there was no denial for Buckingham Palace there, I can assure you. Well, as you know... They bring their own kind of armoured car over as well, don't they, the Americans?

Oh, absolutely. And as you know, after the coronation... We can't be trusted to look after them. But Donald Trump refused to go in the beast. He would not go in the beast like all previous presidents before him who'd come in Trump refused to go in the beast. He would not go in the beast like all previous presidents before him who'd come in the car and left in the car. He wouldn't because he did not want to be driven through the streets of London with protesters. And there were many, many people protesting about him being here. And so he flew in and out of

Buckingham Palace four times in one day, in and out for the arrival and in and out for the state bank. No wonder the garden was all scuffed up. and that did not go down well with her late majesty not surprised well that's what happened to george bush in 2003 when he came over during the iraq war and there were protesters in trafalgar square and they toppled a statue of him a kind of an effigy of him at the time but there's all this stuff that comes with a state visit. Well, yeah. Going back to King Paul of Greece when he came over, because people didn't like Queen Frederica,

there were all sorts of problems and things. And the royal family were booed on their way to, I think, the opera, if not the opera, the theatre in the evening. And they were literally booing from the crowds because she was so unpopular. The state visits are very big. They're very big. There's a lot of work.

They're big set pieces. A lot of work goes into them. I'm just going to read, just to give you an idea of the scale of these events. I'm going to read you something that a magazine described the preparations for the state banquet of the South Korean president recently. Under the chandelier, the ballroom table was set with a grand service, 4,000 pieces, including dinner plates, dessert stands, candelabra made from silver and overlaid with gold. Each place setting was laid with a folded napkin in a Dutch bonnet style. The side plate, two knives, two forks, a dessert spoon, a fork, and a butter knife. Guests were also given six glasses, one for water, two for wine, another for dessert course, a port glass, and a toasting glass for champagne. I mean, so much to remember.

But actually, what is wonderful about this is that when the state banquet table is laid royal correspondents and royal reporters we get to sneak in and we get a tour of it all how wonderful and we get to see the state banquet and how it's all been laid out and we get to see who's sitting next to who and the poor people who've been working for days with a ruler to make sure that the the cutlery is the exact space apart for each place setting and we get the detail is incredible it is amazing and we get walked through and we get talked through which seasonal blooms the king has chosen from which of his estates you know everything has a meaning on the table everything you know is just absolutely perfect

and i do always love going to walk through the state banquet tables. It just feels like a real insider's sort of sneak peek. And I love looking at the name places to see where, who's been put next to who on the naughty table and who's been punished by sitting next to someone they probably don't want to. But then they also have to have a sort of extra table of people because occasionally people don't turn up and people have to be popped in at the last minute. You know, the seating plan's always very difficult.

I hope you've got a very good reason for not showing up to the state banquet i'm not sure if there's terrible traffic on the a4 would cut it well it's interesting you're talking about that roy when you talk about the kind of the level the lavishness that goes into these things because it's a generosity it's you know state to state and it is all very important but i think that one of those reasons are probably behind why Charles's first outward state visit was canned, which was to France because they were having all the riots at the time. And in the end, Macron said, look, let's just postpone this because this is not. But also, it's not a very good look if, you know, Macron sitting there having this lavish banquet,

hosting something when people are rioting, the kind of yellow vest, gilets jaunes, rioting because they're not having, you know, they're not getting the wages that they want. And meanwhile, Macron's here, you know, hosting a king at great expense. He pulled it off a few months later at Versailles and it was hugely lavish. But again, the optics of that state visit were fantastic. They were brilliant, weren't they? But then he had to kind of move it. So there's all these sort of political things going on

for the other country as well that we perhaps don't appreciate. Sometimes, even I remember looking at the correspondence about the Queen's state visit to France in 1972, in which whether she would be flying in a French aeroplane or a British plane. I mean, it's kind of really complicated. And then, of course, what was the wonderful time when, was it Madame Ceausescu who brought her dog with her and the dog had to be sent off?

Well, I mean, that's, you know, people talk about, you know, there was such a hoo-ha when President Trump came and everyone going, how, you know, how can we be hosting President Trump? He's such a divisive leader. But you've got to remember that, you know, the monarch is above politics. And the late queen had hosted some extremely, you know... Putin in the carriage. Ceausescu.

Yes, yes. Putin. Putin in the carriage ride with the queen. I think now that's extraordinary to see those pictures. David Allen getting Ceausescu to come over. And the queen did her best to entertain him. As she, you know, she's not there to cast political judgments on other heads of state.

And it can be very difficult, can't difficult context. I remember when Xi Jinping came over and Charles and Camilla did not go to the state banquet, which I thought was interesting. They met, they did meet them separately, but they didn't go to the state banquet. So there's this, there's an interesting element to who does what. Years ago he boycotted the state banquet of a Chinese president, and that went down very badly. And actually, I think he was wrong to do that, because if he had suddenly succeeded to the throne

and the government had wanted him to go to China, the Chinese might not have wanted him to go, or he might have refused to go. Well, the king is never going to go to China. I think we can safely say that on a state visit. I think you're right. For what we do know, we'll go ahead. Come rain or shine, politics or no politics, are the D-Day celebrations.

On Wednesday, the 5th of June, and Thursday, the 6th of June this year, the King and Queen, joined by other members of the royal family, will remember the sacrifices made by troops during the historic military operation. On the 5th of June, the King and Queen, accompanied by the Prince of Wales, will attend the UK's national commemorative event in Portsmouth to mark the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings. And on the 6th of June, the King and Queen will attend the Ministry of Defence and the Royal British Legion's commemorative event

at the British Normandy Memorial at VersaMare to mark the 80th anniversary of D-Day. The Prince of Wales will attend the International Commemorative Ceremony at Omaha Beach, Saint Laurent-sur-Mer, joining over 25 heads of state and veterans from around the world in marking this historic anniversary. So a major joint event for the King and the Prince of Wales and some careful coordination and choreography as to who will go where. Obviously, it's very important. We saw the 75th anniversary be a huge event. We had kind of world leaders flying in, things like that. Hugo, what do you, this is surely one of those moments where the royal family is front and centre doing exactly what we, they do so well.

Yes, and they have, as you say, commemorated these D-Day landings a lot over the years. And of course, I suppose now nobody left who actually was, can't really be can now. Far fewer, obviously. Yeah, there is a sort of dwindling band of veterans. There are some left, but yes, this is probably the last year that we'll, you know. veterans there are some left but yes this is probably the last year that will you know the last big and where there will be some surviving veterans who who can still sort of you know see what's being done in their honor which is extraordinary and and and very important to remember this very important anniversary so they are they are very good at that sort of thing yes i quite agree with you so we're back the royals with roy and kate and hugo hugo vickers

writer and royal expert is joining us and we are discussing diplomacy protocol and the procedures that make royalty work and this summer we're going to see a lot of that aren't we royal we are because very soon after d-day we're going to have the garter service, the garter ceremony, we're going to have Trooping the Colour, and we're going to have, drumroll, Royal Ascot. Three very big things in the Royal Calendar that are very important to the Royal family, I think. I would say probably that's the sort of the height of the, you know, time where they're most prominently seen in a kind of spectacular and also, to some extent, social way, aren't they? a kind of spectacular and also to some extent social way aren't they because Ascot is very a very social event the one time when the late queen was you know there but she was actually

enjoying the racing and so she wasn't so she was there in a sense officially and yet she was also there as a private person so she could decide if she wanted to go down to the paddock and she the olden days when the paddock was a long way away she would just sort of with her umbrella just point in one way and then the crowd would just disperse and she would just go through and then she would be looking at the horses because she loved all that and then come back again and people were very close to her if they were in the royal enclosure um some of my favorite photographs of the queen when she's watching the racing because yes oh you know any sense of the kind of wearing the mask or the crown kind of is lost and it's just that kind of passion kind of comes out.

She did always look happiest around horses. Well, she did. And what about the derby? I suppose the derby must be coming. Woman after my own heart. An interesting thing about Ascot, I mean, it's something that the royal family absolutely love. They turn out, it's always a huge family turnout

and we've been told that, you know, the king and the queen will be at ascot as much as they possibly can this year as they went every single day last year which nobody expected the king to go every day because no one knew he was into racing and he wasn't really the you know camilla is but then he had a winner and he got very into racing but i've always sort of thought and i you know i'm i'm a big racing enthusiast and that I love, I love racing and horses. Do you think when, you know, the public, you know, man on the street, women on the street, see them in Ascot and all their finery and, you know, top hats and tails and all of that, do you think it makes them seem a little bit more removed, a little bit,

you know, I know it's the royal family, it's ridiculous to say elitist but even more removed from i can remember a discussion way back in the must have been in the 1990s as to whether they should cancel the ascot procession you know and whether that was too elitist procession is when they're in the carriages coming down the road which is a wonderful sight as they shimmer in the distance and suddenly they come and they get closer and closer and closer and i remember saying at the time for heaven's sake the the monarch must appeal to all elements of society. And actually, like you, an enormous number of people like racing. It doesn't really matter what they're wearing. They like the racing.

So not only the Royal Enclosure, but on the other side of the track is the Heath, you know, where anyone can go and enjoy it. And I think it's fantastic. And I think it should be encouraged. And it's the king taking part in a sport which people love quite right that's really interesting that at that time I suppose coming out of the 80s people were looking at how does that what is it what is the image of the royal family and is it too you know is it or is it too elitist is it kind of well I've always thought I mean there was a little bit of a time when they had the Queen signing footballs and things.

And I thought, well, that's all fine as long as every now and again she puts on her crown and goes to the state opening of Parliament. I mean, I think she can do, and the King also, they can do both. They must do both. I mean, it's important to put on the crown every now and again so that you remember who he is. And of course, as far as Parliament is concerned, and after the general election, obviously there will be a state opening of Parliament. That is the one time when the monarch

goes to Westminster in state and reminds us of his part in the constitution because you've got the elected House of Commons, you've got the House of Lords, and you've got the monarch. And nothing becomes an act of Parliament until it's gone through those three processes. The king signs it at the last minute. He will sign it, of course, but a lot of people see it on the way. So he's a stopgap in the constitution. And I think that of all the things that the monarch

says at the state opening of parliament, actually, the speech is written, as you know, by the prime minister. It's the last words when he just wishes God's blessing on your discussions or however it's put. That is really the important thing. And then he goes and lets them get on with it. I mean, the other thing about Royal Ascot is it's, you know, a great family occasion for the royal family. You see all of them come together very often in the paddock and they're there in the royal enclosure, you know, in the royal box. The Tyndals are often there. The Princess Royal often comes.

Beatrice and Eugenie often come um even you know william comes and he is really not into racing and that's you know what will happen to royal ascent just one day doesn't it and that's pretty much what you get from william yeah racing horse racing is not his thing but they do all turn out for it and they seem to really enjoy coming together and seeing each other and it's a big house party of course back at windsor castle they start off with a lunch and then they drive down and they get into the carriages seem to really enjoy sort of coming together and seeing each other. And it's a big house party, of course, back at Windsor Castle. Yes. They start off with a lunch and then they drive down and they get into the carriages and then they come along and there's lots of other activities going on as well.

All like what? Well, they have a lot of guests during Ascot Week. Do they do an office sweepstake? Do they do a Windsor Castle sweepstake? Yes. On who's going to win the Queen Elizabeth II stakes. So there's a jollity around it. It's not just what we see in the carriages.

It's more significant than that. It's an opportunity for the members of the royal family to get together as a family before they then go their separate ways for their big summer break. Yes. I suppose that after Asker, which is the usually sort of second week of June,

there'll be a few, usually a few garden parties aren't there still going on? And I don't know whether they do the Holyrood House week, do they? Well, I mean, Holyrood House will be again, you know, Holyrood Week will be in the balance, presumably. Well, that'll be right, just before or just after the election,

won't it? It would have been first week of July, I think. It usually is around, but that probably might well not happen, actually. And then, of course, as you rightly say, they have the chance to go off on their holidays and relax a little bit, up to a point. I suppose one of the benefits of the election being now is because everyone had been talking about an autumn election. And whether a kind of an early November election would put paid to plans for the king to go to Australia and Samoa for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. So at least even though it's kind of thrown a spanner in the works now, it's probably saved a bit of grief, you know, further down the line. It's going to be grief somewhere, isn't it?

Well, quite. Hugo, apparently you've got a good joke about the garter. Well, it was always said. That sounds a bit saucy, doesn't it? the garter ceremony, which takes place on the Monday, so you've got the Trooping the Colour on Saturday, and then the garter ceremony at which this year the Duchess of Gloucester is going to be installed as a Lady of the Garter, which is most unusual. Huge support, as you probably know, to Queen Camilla.

The Gloucesters have sort of come out of the wings after over 52 years and really being supportive and doing everything and obviously very well trained for it and so the gift of the garter to her is highly significant um but it was always said that um the garter ceremony was known as the Ascot vigil when the knights would kneel to pray for a winner later in the week and were they ever successful was anyone keeping to last year they were successful weren't they I suppose I think the Duke of Norfolk of his day was quite successful. I remember him winning the Gold Cup once, yes.

The Duke who did the coronation, that Duke. Yes, the one and only, yeah. One and only. Well, I mean, regardless of what happens with the election, it looks like it's still going to be quite a busy June, a few weeks for the royal family. So thank you, Hugo, for bringing your extraordinary expertise, historical knowledge and jokes about garters to the royals with Rue and Kate. It's been a pleasure having you on. It's been lovely. Nice to have the opportunity to tell them.