The Royals with Roya and Kate - The King courts Europe and MPs investigate Crown Estate

Episode Date: December 6, 2025

This week, King Charles hosts German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier in a diplomatically significant state visit at Windsor Castle, reaffirming ties between the UK and Europe. But as the pageantry unfolded, Parliament announced a formal inquiry into the Crown Estate. Following revelations over Andrew’s lease deal at Royal Lodge, other royal properties are now under a new level of scrutiny. Kate and Roya are joined by Times reporter Tom Witherow and German royal expert Annelie Malun to unpack a week of ceremony, soft power and hard questions.Presenters: Roya Nikkhah, royal editor for The Sunday Times, and Kate Mansey, royal editor of The TimesContributors: Tom Witherow, senior news reporter at The Times, and Annelie Malun, royal expert for ARDProducer: Robert WallaceEditor: Stephen TitheringtonImage: Getty Images Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the Royals from the Times and the Sunday Times with me Kate Manci and me, Roya Nika. Today, two stories which show two sides to the royal beat, a strategically important state visit by the German president and the parliamentary committee announcing an inquiry into the Crown Estate, the body that owns the homes of the King's brothers, Prince Edward, and the former Prince Andrew, Mountbatten Windsor. It's been 27 years since a German president was last making a state visit to the UK. And in that time, the map of Europe has shifted.

Britain has left the European Union. Germany has emerged as the continent's quiet superpower. And with the invasion of Ukraine, Europe has seen the return of war to the continent. The German president, Frank Walter Steinmeier, was officially greeted to the UK by the Prince and Printers of Wales, who welcomed him on behalf of. of the King. And with carriages through Windsor, Tocin St. George's Hall, this was diplomacy royal style. Germany's undoubtedly now one of Britain's most important allies. And at a time of European crisis, it's the monarchy that's been deployed to help strengthen that relationship. But even as the Royal step forward in foreign affairs, a very different challenge is unfolding

at home. Because this week, the Parliamentary Accounts Committee announced a full and formal inquiry into the Crown Estate. Just weeks after the Times revealed what Andrew Matt Baton-Winza paid on his rent at Royal Lodge. Just a peppercorn. MPs are going to ask whether royal privilege

is still always compatible with public money. So two royal stories, two major moments, and I'm delighted to say we have two brilliant guests to help us navigate it all. Joining us today,

Tom Witherow, who's a senior news reporter at the Times and one of the journalists who broke the story on Royal League. And Annalie Malin is a royal expert for Germany's ARD and host of the podcast, Anneli's Royal Leveld. Tom, Anneli, welcome to the Royals. Thank you. It's good to be here. Thank you.

Tom, can we start with you? Give us a sense of what it's been like dipping your toe in the Royal Beat in the last few weeks. Well, I mean, it's a completely different world to most of the journalism that I do. But I guess what was nice about this story is that we're able to deploy some of the sort of investigative things that we might do in politics or business. because it all came down to that lease and the contract that was signed and ultimately us trying to get something that we believe needed to be in front of the public out into the open. And Anna Lee, you present a podcast which is all about the royal family.

There are other podcasts available. We have to concede that. Tell me, how big a deal are the royals for your German audience? I mean, I do quite a lot for the Germans and you guys seem very, very interested in them. Why? Yes. We're very interested in the British royal family. because they're everywhere in the media, you know, they're everywhere in the news.

Of course, we have the German roots, you know, with the royal family. Germans like the royals, we don't have any worlds anymore. And so that's the glitter, the glamour. And, yeah, and sometimes, sadly, superficial talking about clothes and tiaras and, yeah. More of a celebrity element to it. Yes, sadly to see. But, okay, you can say they're sell-ups, you know. Well, when you look at the Windsors for over a decade, as you have done, how has the Andrew and Epstein story of the last few weeks played out over there? Or maybe it hasn't. Maybe you're more interested in, you know, the celebrity element of it. Now, that was really a big story also in Germany. Epstein played a really big role also with Prince Andrew or formerly Prince Andrew formerly known. And yeah, we had it in the newspaper. We had it everywhere in the headlines, of course. Yeah, the Germans don't like that.

They don't know the immorality aspect of Epstein and that plays well. Of course, of course. I mean, Andrew's always denied any allegations against him. But of course, we know that he was friends with him and did stay in touch with Jeffrey Epstein after he was convicted of sex offences. So we're going to come to talk a lot more about Andrew and all things Royal Lodge and Royal Leases because Tom, you are a new expert in this. But we obviously met yesterday.

We saw each other at Windsor for the state visit. This was the first German state visit. the inward state visit here for 27 years. Of course, the king went to Germany in 2023 for his first outgoing state visit as monarch. Why do you think it was so important? Why does it matter to have a big German state visit here? You know, after Brexit, the Germans are sad about it.

I have to say it because... The president mentioned it in his speech that he was sad. Yes, and he speaks for the Germans, actually. We are sad. And he said that the relationship between weakened, didn't he, in his speech in front of the king? And so that's why you're saying. So that's even more important that he came where he's in Great Britain to be here, to show the friendship, and they like each other.

I mean, you saw it yesterday. The king and Steinmet. When Steymer arrived with his wife and he got out of the car and you really saw that President Stainer was happy to be there. And, okay, there was a pomp of circumstances and the carriages and the soldiers and everything. Those are the things we don't really have in Germany. We're more observed. Yeah, and we don't have the colors, you know, and the horses and everything. So it's a different, it's just different scenery, you know.

There were a lot of personal touches, I felt, the king and queen put it to that. You're talking about Steinmeyer is here for a few days to build bridges. Right. And try and repair that friendship post-Brexit. We're obviously trying to repair that, too. The King is doing that. Kirstlam's doing that. There was a nice personal touches last night for the state banquet, the wine that was chosen,

the red wine. 1995. which was the year that the president and his wife got married. You know, you talked in the intro about the Germans being very into the sort of superficial side of it, you know, the hair, the tiaras. But the tiara that came all last night, there was a real significance behind it because it was the Oriental Circular Tiara, which we had not seen, I think, since 2006, designed by Prince Albert for Queen Victoria, very specifically harking back to the royal family's German roots. Absolutely. And it was a showstopper. Yes, it was.

I think that's ticking all the boxes, isn't it? Yes. They're playing to that, you know, what you'd say, lots of your German audience like the tiara, but there's always a message behind it. Of course, always. We're saying, look, we're connected as two countries. We were just saying before, weren't we,

about how it was different. To the French visit, obviously Trump's visit was quite unique in and of itself anyway, but this did seem like two old pals getting together. It wasn't supposed to be the king's first visit of his reign when he went over for a state visit to Germany. He was supposed to go to France first, but that didn't work out. So Germany ended up being the first visit of his reign,

and he mentioned that last night as well. So it's pulling all those strings together to say, look, we are close. Right. I think it's really important, you know, because with that relationship, it really plays a big, also political role. Tom, what do you think about the kind of diplomatic role that you can see the Windsors carrying out there

in terms of building up those kind of international relationships, essentially. Yeah, absolutely. And we saw it with the late Queen that by having that very long relationship and the long reign, that they're able to play a role that politicians are unable to do. And of course, you know, it's hard to get away from the fact that the working roles remain extremely popular despite all that happens with Andrew, with Fergie, with Prince Harry and Megan. And it is because they perform this role so well. And as you say, they're unmatched in the way that they're able to bring the glitz and glamour and the soft power. that they're so well known for.

We had Mark Glendler on in the New York Times last week. Obviously, we had a whole America special, and there was a lot of stuff about Trump and Andrew and Epstein. But he described to that point, Tom, he described the royal family, our royal family, as like being deployed as a secret weapon, both the broad and when obviously dignitaries come here. Yesterday, you know, there was mentioned in the speeches of the Kensington Treaty.

This visit, state visit comes very, very soon after the signing of the Kensington Treaty, which is all about bilateral cooperation and friendship. We had the king last night in his speech making a very, very pointed moment talking about the Kensden Treaty, talking about the partnership between Germany and the UK being really important in terms of standing up to Russian aggression.

Of course, we know, of course, the king is always supposed to be above politics, but he has made Ukraine a point of his reign of just showing solidarity with Ukrainians. And that's, again, another big part of the friendship, isn't it, between Germany and the UK? It's interesting. We see war on the borders.

not even on the borders of Europe, within Europe, on our borders, effectively, the Kensington Treaty signed in July will help bring new people, young people, make it easier for students to travel and connect between the two countries. But interestingly, what's happening in Germany at the moment is you're going further to meet that, you know, the kind of threat of tyranny, if you like. You know, we've just seen in Germany, and you can tell us more about it, perhaps this idea that it won't be obligatory conscription for young people to join up to the military, but there will be, you know, that they are going to be encouraged. There's going to be health. Tell us a bit about what's happening there with regards to Ukraine, because it seems very prescient at the moment. Yeah, it is. Because like you mentioned, it's more closer for us, you know, the border and the war is more closer for us. You still have the water between, you know, to say it that way.

But yeah, that's a really big theme at the moment. How can we get young people into the army? And actually, one politician said, well, we are ready. If Putin wants to attack us, we're ready to defend us. And I was thinking, well, I don't know if that's the point. That's a good point because that's what Putin has said, we are ready for war with the rest of Europe. What would you say about that fighting talk, Tom? Well, I'd certainly say that Britain's not ready for war.

I think we've discovered that in the last few years that the, you know, the debate around defence and the whittling down of our army to, I think, the smallest it's been in many, many decades and this pledge of increased defence spending here, which is going to be years and years away. I just think when you have Putin saying that on a day where you have the president of Germany and the king side by side talking about San Antonio to Russia, I think the government will probably feel that was quite timely. You've got Putin spouting off saying, you know, we're coming for you if it needs be. And it just, it's important for the government to show that we are, we might have left Europe, but we still have our European allies. And Stama has obviously been taking a leading role in the coalition of the Willing with Ukraine. King has supported that. Yeah. And the future of our defence remains as coalitions.

We, you know, it would be difficult to stand up to a Putin or a China alone. Yeah. So we have all the pomp and pageantry of a state visit and all the clits, all the glamour, all the carriages, the diplomatic significance of tiaras. But we have the royal family and the monarchy hugely under scrutiny at the moment. We have done for a few months. That's been bubbling away with Prince Andrew, the former Prince Andrew man back in winter. I keep having to correct myself saying that because it's still new news. And Tom, just talk us through the last few weeks, some of the reporting you've been doing,

particularly over the lease about Royal Lodge. And of course, this week on Tuesday, the announcement by the Public Accounts Committee, that they will launch a formal inquiry into the Crown Estate and all those arrangements, not just with Andrew, but with other members of the Royal Family. over their arrangements with properties. Talk us through the last few weeks. It's been an amazing year for news in the sense that so much of the sort of bombs that have been dropped on the UK have come from the American side of the Atlantic. And this one was no different because the original story, you know, the focus on Andrew came again because more emails were dribbling out through leaks and congressional committees over there.

And that's what led to saying, well, Andrew's already had his stipend removed from the king. He's already had his secure, the money for his security taken away. You know, what else is there? Because he is still living the life of a prince. He was still living in Royal Lodge, this 30-room mansion with enormous grounds. You know, the thing that brought me in was a question from our team to say, well, he's living in this amazing place. Who's paying for it? Is it the British public?

Is it the king? Is it Andrew himself? And if Andrew is paying for it, how on earth is he doing that? Because he doesn't appear to have any day job. Like many investigations, sometimes the winning formula is the most simple. And it was really just through a few days of bullying the Crown Estate to say, we really need to see this document. You cannot keep it hidden any longer.

Yeah. Because interestingly, and quite irritatingly for me, I had the lease of the document which had been submitted to the land registry. But of course, part of that had been redacted. Now, it was the crucial part that Andrews team had redacted before they submitted that as a document. And you got hold of the original, which was fantastic, which revealed the rent that he was paying, which was one pepper corn per annum. So what the palace and everyone would say and the Crown Estate would say is that, well, he paid a lot of money up front for the lease and to carry out renovations on the property after the queen mother. His grandmother died in 2002.

He took it on, spent seven and a half million on it. That's part of a down payment on the rent. but it wasn't at all clear until you were able to produce that document which showed that beyond the initial renovations essentially and fair enough he has to pay for the repair and upkeep and redecoration every five and seven years it sort of broke it down which makes you wonder why they were they'd redacted it for a reason essentially yeah i mean i didn't know that you could redact documents

going into the land registry until i saw that come out and yeah i mean the document just sort of unlocked that whole, you know, this whole story now of him being removed. And what did the Crown Estate say when you kind of said, come on, come on, come on, come on? What was the point at which they sort of said, okay, hands up? It felt like something had shifted. It does feel like something's shifted now. We had George on a few weeks ago talking about this because you did the story together, didn't you? And he said, it was interesting. He said, we kept asking. He said, I just got the, we got to the point where we felt the Crown Estate were like, why are we taking all the heat for this? You know, this is an arrangement with members of the Royal Family and presumably

treasury know about it too and from the correspondence to come out from the PAC that's been interesting and he said there just came a point where you just felt them go we don't want to keep taking this heat here's the information yeah i thought that was quite interesting yeah i think that's right and you know it shows in some sense the power of the media as a collective because once that pressure just builds and builds and builds you know we don't know what goes on behind closed doors in terms of conversations with the palace and whether the palace gave the nod or anything like that i mean you would know more than me well did it suit them this is pure conjecture but you You have to ask the question. Did it suit the palace and the royal family to put more pressure on Andrew at that point before all his titles were stripped? Who knows? We talked about Epstein being a big story in Germany. Do things like this around the house and Andrew and money, does that land in Germany? A little bit because that is hard stuff. You know, and to get to that system and it's hard to understand or to put it into a story, which is easy to understand for the Germans because it's a different system. You know what I mean? But if you have like Der Spiegel, which is

the big news magazine, you have the picture of Prince Andrew with Virginia Joufrey on that picture, you know, that when that's on the front page, you know, it's easy, you know, to say. It's easy to understand. Yes. The financial things are really complicated for. Although this broke it down, didn't it in some ways? Because it's like, here's Andrew, here's this really big house. And guess what he plays?

Zero. Right. That's now that, it starts to get, when it crystallizes to that point, people can kind of get okay. Right. What's been really interesting has been described this week as a Pandora's box. So we've had the launch of, you know, we've had the Public Accounts Committee. They read the story about Andrew not paying any rent. The Public Accounts Committee in Westminster, who were set up for this very purpose,

they said, hang on, we need to get across this. They then submitted lots of questions to the Crown Estate and the Treasury, which came back this week. And in light of those responses, which were quite fulsome, they've now said, we're going to go further. We're going to launch an inquiry. So this is all happening. but someone described it this week as opening a Pandora's box.

In my mind, it's more like kind of wedging open, a rusty can of worms because now we're looking at Prince Edward's financial affairs. Prince Edward for Bagshot Park paid through his company, £5 million up front for a 150 year lease with the ongoing rent as one peppercorn. This inquiry, the remit of it, is going to be to look at all the royal properties and all the deals that they have with the Crown Estate. They will try and look at, I mean, Forrest Lodge was mentioned in that correspondence,

which is the new home of William and Kate, the Forever Home. We find out they've only got a 20-year lease on it. There will be questions asked over that lease arrangement. They will not be exempt. And they say in that they're paying an open market rent. Well, what is that? So it is bad news, I think.

It should be concerning news, I think, for members of the Royal Family, because it will, these quiet arrangements that have been quietly agreed with the Crown Estate, questions asked for years and years and years, many, many questions will now be asked. And we had Clive Betts on, a member of the Public Council Committee, when on Times Radio on Tuesday, we got him on as soon as the news broke. And we asked him, what is the protocol here?

What are the sort of arrangements around? You have said you will try and publish this in June, the report, and then hold an evidence session. Who can you call? Who will be called? Will you call Andrew Matt Batten, Windsor? Oh, he was quite shifting in his replies. But he did say, now he's no longer. a title member of the royal family.

He is still the brother of the king. There's no reason why he can't be called. But also, there is no remit. Royal members of the royal family are not banned under these laws from being called, is my understanding. Annalie, how do you think in this compares,

while conversation here in Britain about what the royal family cost us, in terms of sort of value for money, how do you think that compares to other European royal families, which I know you, you've looked at. You're the expert on. I mean, in all the other monarchies that are still, you know, existing, I mean, they always have to work for it because, you know, the people

wake up in the morning and they ask themselves, why do we have a monarchy? Why are they here? What are they doing? And so they always have to justify themselves. Why are they still there? So they have a pressure. If you look at Spain, like Felipe, the king and Philippa, what he done with his father, you know, with Juan Carlos, you know, in the corruption scandal. He exiled him. And said, well, I don't want to inherit any money from you, you know. I mean, it was really big consequences for the Spanish monarchy. And they have to work really hard to be accepted.

Yes, and justify themselves. Do you think we are now at a crux point where we have a monarchy that I think has never been under more scrutiny and had more controversy for decades really swirling around? it. Do you think going forward the royal family is going to have to justify itself more to the public as it goes forward? I think that the combination of the cost of living crisis, we've just had a budget where taxes have been raised on pretty much everybody. These grace and favour homes, if they're not coming in at market rent, there's a lot of conversation in the UK about how we're funding our NHS, how we're funding, send in schools and so on. And if these properties which

for the benefit of the public and not delivering that market rent that we spoke about the maximum amount of revenue for those public services and instead you've got far off relatives of the role family who we've never heard of

or Marquess is living in these properties on cheap rents then I don't think the public can stand for it. I think you're right. I think the timing is everything, isn't it? On Monday I was in Newport with Prince William

and he was delivering a speech about Welsh investment and Rachel Reeves was in the audience there watching the speech and afterwards, she didn't meet the prince and was sort of sent away to a side room to get ready for her own speech. But it just, to me, kind of crystallise

the whole thing that's happening at the moment. On the one hand, you've got the royal family, scrutiny under how public money's been spent there while a lot of people are feeling the pinch. A lot of people are feeling, you know, hang on a minute, I'm working really hard, I'm paying lots of taxes, you know, where's the upside? So it's a kind of a perfect storm.

You're going to have next year the inquiry from the Public Accounts Committee that's announced this week. you're also going to have next year that review of the sovereign grant that you mentioned, Tom, is going, you know, they take a proportion of the crown estate profits as the sovereign grant. That's the money that's spent on the work of the royal household. And that will be under review next year. I mean, it does feel like there's a bit of a head of steam building.

Would you say so? But there definitely is. I agree. I think the royal family and the whole institution and the way it works is going to be, the fact that reporters like you and George and investigative reporters are getting more and more involved in. In our beat. Tanks off our lawn. I think it's a sign of the Times, I really do. We've had, at the same time this week, we've had the Royal Family under scrutiny in terms of cost and properties, then we've had it doing what it does really quite well in terms of deploying soft power and cozing up to our European allies at a time when we've never needed it more with, you know, war in Europe.

Right, yeah. How easily do you think the two things coexist, those two sides of the royal family, or, you know, is it becoming more and more fractious? I think so, but I think, you know, all monarchies have to adapt somehow. You know, they have to modernize. The Swedish and the Danes have modernized. Also, I mean, like the Danish, I mean, Queen Margarita, she said, well, all the other ones, you know, the prince titles, they're just been stripped, you know, they're not princess anymore. And also, like, in Sweden as well, you know, that Carl Gustav said, well, all they are. other, um, they're not going to take the tie line, you know, it's not, but does the, but does something, yeah, we've had, we've got our, we've got our king who has stripped. He has de-prints to print. He has de-duke to duke. When you have the state visit and the, the royalist doing all the pomp and pageantry, and then you have what we've just talked about with the scrutiny, do they

justify themselves their purpose more with things like the state visit, showing that it is important to have a royal family and a head of state who can go, you know, head to state with the Germans to show that we have our allies and there's a reason for our royal family. Do you think the state visits sort of demonstrate that? I think so, yes. I think so, yes, it did. I mean, for the German point of view, I think you have a different point of view as in the UK. I think it's totally different.

And how did it play on German television yesterday, the state banquet? Well, it was only a small part, actually, because there's so much going on in the world, especially the Ukraine war and how the EU was going to react on Putin's, saying that he wants... His announcement about saying he's ready for war with Europe. Putin's announcement that he is ready. Were you surprised by how little news it made in Germany? Yes, I was surprised.

Okay, if I see it overall, okay, I kind of understand, but at least a little part of it. And even in the main news show, it wasn't even mentioned. But it was online, of course, and, you know, and it was pomp and glitter and also the speeches. It's lovely pictures, but how much of the actual resonance of what it's meant? Also, you look at the opulence of it, right, Tom. You look at the lavish element of a state banquet.

We've just been talking about value for money and how public money is spent. Do you think people will look at these state banquets and think, hang on a minute, I'm counting the pennies when I go for my weekly food shop for me and my kids. And you see those state banquets. Is that a good look?

I do think that, you know, I see in a comment section and when you talk to people that they sort of have a carve out for those big events, you only have to look at Donald Trump who clearly has a soft spot for the king and the idea of the monarchy and Charles is able to make inroads with Donald Trump

that no politician can reliably. You never know quite where he's going to turn next whereas with the king he seems to, he has that soft spot and that letter, for example, was a real sort of coup de grace that really unlocked some of the benefits that we've seen in trade deals and tariff. That's the letter that Kirstama delivered

saying, please come over, you know, from the king. With such flouring. He was so... He was so flattered, wasn't he? He made him to see you live. What if you think if we need to get through to Donald Trump, if the king's on the phone, he's going to pick up? There's no way.

We have that connection, I suppose. So you're saying, you know, ultimately it could be good value. I think it's in their private life where the public might be a bit less happy. And, you know, I think one reason why the Queen was so loved, you know, so famous for her three-bar heater and always being in the smallest room in the house. She was thrilled to have her rainy holidays in Scotland. And I think she'd been on exhaust. desert islands, you know, in the Caribbean, constantly, people might have felt a bit different.

I mean, fascinating and fascination to get your insight, both of you, honestly. Our huge thanks to Tom Withrow and Anna Lee Manon for joining us this week and helping us unpack what's been a defining moment, both at home and on the international stage. So from the carriages of Windsor to the committee rooms of Westminster, The monarchy has rarely been so visible and so scrutinised. We'll be watching closely as the Public Accounts Committee inquiry unfolds, so don't forget to follow the Royals with Royer and Kate so you don't miss a beat.