The Royals with Roya and Kate - The King, The Prince and The Duke

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

The hugely experienced royal editors of The Sunday Times and the Times, Roya Nikkhah and Kate Mansey, explore the ever-evolving world of the British monarchy. In their first episode they discuss the week when Prince William visited a homelessness project in Cornwall, and King Charles and the Duke of Sussex were both in London but no meeting took place - why?  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So hello, I'm Roya Neekar, Royal Editor of the Sunday Times. And I am Kate Mancy, Royal Editor of the Times. Welcome to this first episode of The Royals, you guessed it, with Roya and Kate. Each week we discuss all things royal, from the official to the off the record. The views of the palace and the public. And how the press. Do they mean us? Makes sense of it all.

Or sometimes, it's fair to say, may add to the kerfuffle. Kerfuffle! Kate, Princess of Wales, is of course still being treated for cancer. And anyone who covers the royal beat will know that the princess is spending time at home and there is little directly coming from the palace about her progress. Apart from the lovely photograph of Princess Charlotte by the Princess of Wales that was released the other day for her birthday. And we to be honest wish her well and as everyone does we wait for official updates. But the monarchy as part of public life here in the UK goes on,

and it's proving a very full and very interesting week. A big week for the royals, and a big week for those who report the royals. That's us. So today we're concentrating on the three members of the royal family. Well, officially two. Charles the King, William the Prince of Wales, and Harry, who is still part of the royal family, but technically no longer part of the official royal household. Harry, the Duke of Sussex and fifth in line to the British throne. So this week, we'll talk about Harry, and then William, and then Charles, the Duke, the Prince and the King. It was a hot day in the capital.

London was split in two. West of the Strand were lots of couples and well adorned in suits and ties, or summer dresses and white hats. To the east, just as smart, but more military uniforms. A hugely important sporting and charity service of Thanksgiving at St Paul's Cathedral, honouring 10 years of Prince Harry's Invictus Games. At Buckingham Palace, a garden party. The Sovereign's Garden Party.

A thousand people at the cathedral. 8,000 at the palace. On one side of London, a duke. On the other, a king and queen. A princess royal, the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, and the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester. In fact, most members of the royal family apart from Kate and William. Quite a day. Quite a day.

They were only two miles apart. But London traffic can be dreadful. So Kate, let's analyse the day of days the day of reckoning the day that all of us last week were going will they wait and they will they won't they that's a brilliant piece wasn't there beforehand kevin meyer wrote in the in the times saying that if only there was some way to get two people in the same city at the same time and in approximately the same place to meet up it's almost as if there was something other than practicalities keeping them apart it was interesting because over the

weekend looking ahead a few of our colleagues wrote big front page stories saying harry and king to meet and then there was some mood music coming through from the palace on saturday that off the record that meeting hadn't actually been scheduled and the request from harry hadn't yet come in to see his father because it's not just like normal families where you pick up the phone and say, I'm in town, can I come round for cuppa? Things have to be scheduled into the King's very busy diary. And there was all that speculation.

And then Harry landed on Tuesday and then very soon after he landed, we got this statement from his spokesperson, which I'm going to read out, Kate. very soon after he landed, we got this statement from his spokesperson, which I'm going to read out, Kate. It unfortunately will not be possible due to His Majesty's full programme to meet. The Duke, of course, is understanding of his father's diary commitments and various other priorities and hopes to see him soon. Analyse that, Kate. That was casting shade, as I think they say in California, onto the palace. You know, I just think that was so loaded, that statement.

First of all, the fact that there was a statement at all in the first place saying, I wanted to meet the king, but he's obviously too busy. He's got other things to do. And it was that other priorities, wasn't it? That line, I just thought, and I'm not one of them. That's what Harry was saying. I'm not one of them that's what Harry was saying I'm not one of those other priorities and it just everything everything they do when they put something out officially

I remember speaking to the people and saying is this guidance from Harry's lot is you know this was coming from the Sussex camp is this guidance are you happy for this to be on the record and they said yeah attribute it to a spokesperson so it was very much they wanted it out there on the record. And then it meant the palace was on the back foot yet again. How many times have we seen that with the relationship between Harry and the King? But then people in the palace were saying, well, it's not entirely clear whether an official request, like you said, has come in. So, you know, recollections may vary yet again.

God, it's just so sad, really, isn't it? That both of them were in town for a whole day and couldn't find a way to meet. And, you know, that the end of that statement, he hopes to see him soon. It's sort of it's left hanging, isn't it? But he has no idea if he will see him soon. Of course, Harry came in February for that 24 hour dash to see his father after he'd said he had cancer. And there was a way, you know, there was a way found in very full diaries to make that happen. And even that was brief, but Harry was apparently glad of it. You know, it was less than 45 minutes because we saw Harry go in and then the king came out about 45 minutes later. So the meeting was, you know, in that short slither of time.

And it's right to say that, of course, the royal family have different, you know, they operate differently. The king's diary, he's just come back to public engagements it's very you know busy he's booked in every minute is accounted for it's like a military regime but you know if he wanted to make the time he is the king i looked 10 minutes with his son yeah i looked at the court circular this morning to see what the king had been up to yesterday and it looked like as published in the times as published in the times court circular it looked like he was busy from the as published in the times court circular it looked like he was busy from the afternoon onwards he was receiving people at buckingham palace various

military people and then he had obviously the garden party at the palace then he had his audience weekly audience with rishi sunak but there wasn't i didn't see anything in the court circular in the morning but then he doesn't put his medical appointments in there not that i want to be that you know true but having said that you never know what half an hour cup of tea 10 minutes it's a shame it couldn't be found i just thought about it and i thought so technically we've just been marking one year since the coronation that was this week harry in that year has seen his father once for half an hour yeah no matter how you look at it that's incredibly sad and i wonder whether that last meeting we just talked about in February it was only half an hour but very soon afterwards Harry gave an

interview to an American network and he talked about that meeting with his father didn't go into detail but he talked about it yeah he talked he hinted at a kind of reunifying effect didn't he yes cancer and various illnesses can have within a family not specifying his own but he he sort of said you know I'm coming back to the UK. I'd like to see them more. I hope I'll be able to see my father more. And that just hasn't happened. No.

But then the last time he met, his stepmother Camilla was in the room for the whole meeting. And, you know, I do think there's a lot of trepidation in the palace that is this going to end up on the next Netflix show? When he did his autobiography, he intimated there was lots more material you know perhaps for another you know second volume or something so there's that i think there's still that fear that anything that can be said in private might become public but you know the pr when i'm looking at it from the outside i think most people will think that's pretty shoddy that the king couldn't make 15 minutes to see his

son he was actually here for something that is generally you know perceived to be brilliant his invictus games 10-year milestone something that unanimously people support i think it's a good thing to support wounded servicemen and women well all the headlines sort of yesterday and today were two miles apart, but never further apart. You know, rift, rift, rift. And that day, and then just after we had the Harry spokesman saying, you know, we wanted to meet the king, but, you know, sadly, unfortunately not available.

We had the note from the palace about Monday's engagement which takes place on Monday, during which the king is going to hand to the Prince of Wales, to William, the colonelcy of the Army Air Corps, which is, of course, Harry's old regiment. Of course, he wasn't in the running for that because he doesn't do official duties anymore. But I just thought the timing of announcing that big joint engagement with the king and William,

I don't think any of that timing is ever coincidental. You know, they released that on that day. Well, didn't someone in the palace say a couple of years ago when the Queen posed with Justin Trudeau in front of, in a blue and yellow dress, in front of blue and yellow flowers at the outbreak of conflict in Ukraine, nothing ever happens unless it's for a reason. So we look forward to on Monday, you know, we've just had one son not see his father. And then on Monday, we're going to have the very powerful images of Charles handing over the colonelcy of the Army Air Corps with William flying a helicopter.

Because of course, he was a helicopter pilot. But you know, the co-pilot gunner, the Apache helicopter pilot was Harry. All very sad, I think. Very sad. So the Duke was greeted with cheers as he arrived alone at the cathedral because Meghan and his children had stayed away but he looked well and animated he looked at ease. And there were great readings by actors and service people alike and the Dean of St Paul's the very Reverend Andrew Tremlett paid tribute to Harry's decade of profound and transformational

work carried out by the Mictus Gaines foundation and of course he might not have had his royal family there but he did have his family there he had l spencer there his uncle he had jane fellows there his aunt his cousin george mccorkadel so the spencer family were out in force there's a lot of warmth there between them when he greeted them as well he was very pleased to have their support yeah yeah and the dean added that we pray for a world where justice shall reign and where the nations will find their longed for unity so does it matter if the royals are not united do you think well it's the new reality that we've grown accustomed to in the last few years that you know when we were before our time kate before we were on this beat in the wild west of the 80s and 90s the family was very disunited in the wild west of the 80s and 90s,

the family was very disunited in terms of, you know, the War of the Waleses, all the divorces in the royal family, Charles and Diana, Andrew and Fergie, you know, the Princess Royal and her first husband. There was a lot of discord then and it did damage the royal family. I think it was acknowledged that those years were very damaging for the royal family. And now we have a whole different kind of discord and lack of unity. And I think, you know, every time you look at the polls, members of the royal family here are relatively popular still that, you know, the King, the Waleses. But when you look at people being asked questions about, you know, do you wish the royal family would come together? And actually people outside St. Paul's yesterday, they do. And I think the public do think it's very, very sad.

At the same time, discord in a dysfunctional family, I think humanises them a bit because we can all relate to that, can't we? Oh, absolutely. I think every family's got elements of, you know, discord. And I don't know any family that doesn't to be honest and i think that it does humanize them and i think that's what the king's reign where that is kind of different from queen elizabeth ii who kind of kept it all in sync you know steering the ship in the right direction nobody would fall out of line prince philip was there and tried to keep everybody in line and then this is more of a kind of human monarch who has his failings. He gets frustrated with pens when they don't work. You know, he's on his second marriage,

much more happily married now with Camilla than he ever was with Diana, of course. But yeah, I think these things happen in families and we're seeing it play out. And I think that it's interesting to see how they react to it and how they see it. I suppose for Charlesles one of the things that i'm very interested in with this whole family dynamic is when you speak to courtiers and friends trying to bang the drum for charles the word they often use the c word don't worry it's not the bad c word is his convening power and they talk about charles being a great convener and bringing people together but he is not so far able to do that with his family and I just wonder

whether as this goes on how bad a look it's going to be for Charles's reign if this reign goes its full course with a son outside the fold so outside the fold that he doesn't even get to spend 15 minutes with his father when he comes over for a few days. Ultimately, I know Harry has done things that have upset the family, you know, the Oprah interview, the Netflix documentary, the claims in spare about the family, but you've got to acknowledge that that's how he felt. I just wonder how problematic it's going to be for Charles as time goes on and he is not reunited with his son

and that rift is not healed, for him not to extend that hand of fatherly love, regardless of what's happened in the past. But we'll talk more about the king later. And of course, the only working royals missing from the Garden Party celebration or the Invictus Thanksgiving were the Prince and Princess of Wales. William has been conducting investitures in Windsor this week and Catherine is not undertaking public duties due to her health.

But now William is also out and about. And at this very moment, Kate, as we record this, William is starting a two-day visit to Cornwall and the Silly Isles. Sunny Cornwall. So he's just arrived in Cornwall and he's going to do something very important, very close to his heart. Today, for the first time, he's going to see the plans of a £3 million social housing project

that he's building on his Duchy of Cornwall land in Nansleddon, which is a suburb of the cornish seaside town of newquay and he is building and funding three million pounds social housing development to tackle homelessness so these are flats and houses 24 of them that will start to be built this year they'll be ready by next the autumn of 2025 and they will be available to people who are at risk of homelessness or experiencing homelessness in cornwall it is a joint project with the royal foundation and the duchy um with st petrox which is a homelessness charity that william's working with and it's very close to his heart and it's something he talked a lot about when i interviewed

him last june and during that interview I asked him I said to him well you know you're about to launch something a big initiative on homelessness which is Homewoods his big project to end homelessness in the UK but you have many houses access to quite a few palaces and castles we're about putting some housing on your land and he sort of shifted in his seat and I like, so there are no plans for affordable housing. So it's your idea. You're claiming credit for it. Well, no, I'm not.

And he went, no. And I was like, so, and he went, social housing. And the press secretary sort of shifted slightly uncomfortable to be in his seat. And I'm like, great, social housing on your land. Headline. Now he's been shamed into doing it. To be fair, a lot of people are like, oh, well, are you going gonna put your money where your mouth is well that's quite a good point because is it you know is it enough because there is a huge problem there's lots of problems we know in cornwall with people having

second homes down there and then people local people just can't get on the ladder at all homelessness has gone up a lot in the last couple of years um and it was made a lot worse by covid exactly for that reason people being priced out of the housing market because staycationers went there and landlords just removed their housing from the private market and put it on for sort of holiday lets. So it seems like a start. And he's part of that as well, I suppose, because he owns the Duchy of Cornwall now as the Prince of Wales. It's a hugely wealthy organisation,

brings him tons of money for him every year. Is he doing enough, though? I mean, it's all very good for a kind of soundbite and to say he's going to end homelessness within five years, which seems quite an ambitious task. And to have sort of 24 new homes. But no one wonders how, whether he could be doing more. I think it's a good start.

I think it's good to sort of put your money where your mouth is. And I think the whole point of the Nance Laddon project is William's very keen to try and encourage other landowners to do the same, to build much more social housing on his land, on their land. And it's interesting, people sort of close to the Prince talked about, you know, the MOD and the Church of England having these vast swathes of land privately owned which

you know they don't release to build social housing on so i think i think he will do more i think there are plans for other projects on dutchy land but you know i remember when i was into him last year he knew he said you know i know people will sort of say you're a prince you live in big houses i'll come in for a lot of flack trying to tackle homelessness but for him i think he feels it's much better to try and do something where he can um than just not do anything at all and homelessness it's not you know for him it's been something he has been passionate about since he was very young since diana took him to she did to all those shelters the passage center point um sleeping overnight yeah and he's done the big issue as well he's been quite proponent of of that going out on the streets

and selling it yeah it's a good start I think it's a good start I think that's the thing about Adelaide Cottage as well when they moved up to Windsor I remember doing the story about Windsor and they were very very cagey about confirming that story to me but I had it on really good authority that they were moving and broke the story they were going to move up to Windsor and it really struck a nerve and I think obviously because it's bad PR you know we've spent a lot of money as taxpayers doing up Kensington Palace of course they also have Amahor their private gift from the Queen which is up in Sandringham they have the use of cottages in on the Balmoral estate he's not in a very strong

position to to preach about these things, particularly. And then when he became Prince of Wales, there was a lot of briefing, wasn't there, that he wasn't going to be acquiring another house in Wales because the king has a house in Wales that we cannot pronounce. We won't even try and pronounce. It's like that long.

Yeah, but that's because also the king spent a week in Wales every year, which William hasn't done since he's been Prince of Wales. there's been other stuff going on but he said he was going to sort of airbnb because there was all the great headlines of air as in air to the throne airbnb yes i see what you've done there yeah i'm wasted on the times i should be on the sun you should be a sub headline writer on the sun that's what you should be so it's been it's been an interesting mixed week you've had harry out on manoeuvres doing his Invictus thing. William doing his investitures on the same day,

but then focusing on homelessness, which is his big, big thing this weekend. And then the king, the third player. I mean, I feel bad for Charles. We're describing him as the third player in this saga. It's like he's the bronze medalist. But actually, you know, he should be the top dog. He should be the top dog. I think he certainly thinks he is. And most people think he is. But we're describing him as the third player in this three-way Viking saga of Harry, William and Charles. The king, King Charles. But it is

the boys, isn't it, that fell out first. And I think Charles has sort of tried to keep them together. There was that great line in Harry's book about how, you know, he said, please boys don't make my final years a misery. So it's fair to say, and all the papers are saying it. Even are, so it must be true. It's fair to say that King Charles did not hold back at the Palace Garden party in greeting well-wishers.

He was shaking hands, grinning, looking very dapper in his grey coattails. Those grey coattails he's probably been wearing since he was 25. He's just been patching them up. He looked in his element. Sustainability. Upcycling. He did look in his element, didn't he?

He looked in his element despite still receiving cancer treatment every week. You've said that he has been like a caged lion in this past few weeks. I mean, the script here says that I'm supposed to rule and if our editor thinks I'm going to rule like a lion, he's got nothing coming. I shall not. Anyway, he's a busy old bee, isn't he? He's got a very packed summer schedule. Yeah, he's sort of hitting the ground running, isn't he? After coming back on public engagements, he's had that year on since the anniversary or the year anniversary of the coronation he's looking forward to an inward state visit from japan uh the discussion about d-day and how he's going to be involved with that and i think you know they've announced those new patronages so he's taken on 300 new charities despite the fact that you know he's 75 and he's had cancer or is still receiving

treatment for cancer. There's a lot, isn't it? Well, I thought what was interesting about all the mood music that came out from the Palace earlier this month and last month was that he's not going to be doing a full summer schedule. It won't be a full summer programme. And yet when you look at what you kind of know he's going to be at over the next few weeks, it's an unbelievably packed summer programme. It's a lot.

For any 75-year-old, let alone one receiving cancer treatment, it's engagement after engagement after engagement. It's almost every day. A big set-piece moment, Trooping the Colour, D-Day possibly in France, probably in France with William, Gartaday, I'm told that he's going to be at ASCA almost every day. It's a lot. And I picked up last week

from William's people and some friends of William's that he's quite concerned about his father's schedule and actually he knows he loves work and he's a workaholic but he worries about him balancing his recovery and the Queen too because the Queen probably said it best last week when she said I'm trying to rein him in yeah good luck with that trying to hold him back I know I suppose that's where you see Charles he's got bits of his mum there hasn't he because the queen you know everyone in the last few years everyone's like oh do you think she'll abdicate it's not really her vibe it's not how she rolls you know she's job for life and so is Charles and he's and he's only just got the top job so he's not going to sort of give it up. I think he was hugely frustrated.

Stopped start king. By, yeah, well, the fact that he had to stop at all. And even when Camilla went away for a week's holiday and he was supposed to take a week's break, he naughtily filled his calendar with all sorts of, a diary with all sorts of engagements that week when initially it had always been as a week's break anyway for him to take a break while she was away. managed to like sneak in a few governors general do you think there's any thing in the fact that he started then stopped press pause and now he's coming back sort of

incredibly busy despite what the palace say because he's conscious he doesn't want to be the king who started his reign and then disappeared for a bit is is there something about building his legacy quite fast now yeah i think so i think it's also a sign that he genuinely feels okay to do it i think he genuinely is a lot better yeah um so i think that's it but yeah the legacy he's a you know he's always been a kind of king in a hurry hasn't he because he's always wanted to try to make his mark as monarch, despite coming to the throne so late in life, after a lifetime, you know, as the heir apparent. Yeah. So, I mean, you and I both spent quite a lot of time

and thousands of words last week looking at the first year since the coronation. So how do we think the Carolian age is shaping up? I mean, it's been unexpected, the first year since the coronation. So how do we think the Carolian age is shaping up? I mean, it's been unexpected, the first year. What do you think are the key sort of standout things of what we're seeing Charles produce? I think we're already seeing a huge change to the monarchy. You know, we hear all about the kind of slimmed-down monarchy

and he's made no secret of wanting that for years and now here he is and some by design some by default so it happened to him but there's already this kind of modernization I think there's a softening of it as well the fact that they released the picture of Charles and Camilla in the gardens at Buckingham Palace to mark that one year anniversary it was very soft uh you know he was looking lovingly at the queen who stood in for him she was center stage wasn't she in that picture yeah she was and i think that was a a purpose they did that purposefully to kind of juxtapose the the formality of last year's coronation and the coronation of

course even that wasn't you know splendor of old there weren't tiaras there wasn't lots of bling you know obviously it was a huge you know momentous pomp and pageantry celebration but it wasn't what it has been in 1953 even the invitation was kind of the green king wasn't it it was very kind of natural his love of the environment um so it's a softening i think and i think that's you know however long he'll be monarch and obviously it's not going to be anywhere near what his mother was it's shaping the monarchy for years to come and I think it's crucial even though it will be a short terrain I think it will have a lasting impact in that respect of making it softer making it more modern transforming it less formal yeah I think that's right and i thought those pictures last week of

him sitting in the you know chemotherapy chair talking to another patient and the chemotherapy chair was very powerful and much less formal you would i don't recall ever seeing pictures like that of the queen yes she did hospital visits the late queen but you know she wasn't so hands-on literally and and and metaphorically i think i think what's interesting is this sort of bulking that I picked up on of, you know, when we all wrote our pieces about one year in of the king's reign last year, I spoke to someone who really likes the king, a friend of the king's, who said, you know, there isn't enough, we're not going in enough pace. He's got to be careful he doesn't become a caretaker king.

And that phrase got picked up and used across broadcast because i think and my goodness me you know everyone around charles the courtiers i think i used the word harumphed you knew it had riled him robert hardman's book it was across several chapters he's not a caretaker king but actually i think there's something to be said for him overseeing you know a smooth transition and keeping things quite steady and i think people probably expected more change more quickly because he was quite a radical prince of wales but he's in a different role now and i just you know when we say what does the carolian age look like i'm still slightly struggling to kind of understand or get a sense of what his wider

manifesto is but maybe maybe that's fine maybe maybe as someone said last week the change is hiding in the plain sight he's still pursuing things like the environment look at his speech at cop 28 he's launching food waste projects those are things he was very interested in as the prince of wales which he's brought through to his you know reign maybe that's the change that we're seeing. We're just, you know, seeing it in a different way as king. So Kate, we've had all three around this week. We've had the king, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Sussex, the trio, the triangle, father and two sons.

Where do you think in terms of family dynamics, where do you think they're all at at the moment? Well, I thought there was a really telling point this week because no one was talking about will William meet Harry while he's over here. It was all about will the King meet Harry while he's over during his visit. From a journalist perspective, that's quite interesting, because last time the story was William saying he had no plans to meet him. But now the rift is so deep and so widely accepted that that's not even a story anymore. No one assumes that William and Harry will ever meet.

I think that's not even a story anymore no one assumes that William and Harry will ever meet I think that's really sad but it's also the story's moved on the narrative's moved on and it's just now ingrained in people's minds they don't talk there's no way back we've been marking the coronation of the king one year on and I it always gets me thinking if god forbid we would have another coronation soon and long live the king for, you know, his health and my own sanity. But if we were to have another coronation in the next few years, would Harry be there? I don't think William would invite him and I don't think Harry would come. And that's an extraordinary thing, isn't it? I think that Harry is still part of the family while his father's still alive I think when we move on to King William I think it's a very

different picture obviously he's still part of the family in that you know his birthright and all that sort of thing but in terms of any invitations to Troop in the Colour any kind of official coronation I think it'd be very difficult for William to invite him to that. I just don't think it's going to happen. So Kate, what a week it's proving to be. Are you thinking what I'm thinking? I am. I'm thinking a cup of tea and another fanfare. So the first of many chats between us, Kate. The monarchy endures. And we will endure it along with them.

This is The Royals with Roya and Kate, a flagship royal podcast. Wait, isn't it the only one? The only one that matters. And if you liked it particularly, let us know what you'd like to know about The Royals and how we report on them. Thanks for listening. Bye from me, Kate Mancy, and Roya Neeker from The Times. It's the Sunday Times, actually.

Two for the price of two. Very good value, I'd say. The Royals with Roya Neeker and Kate Mancy. Produced by Callum McRae. The editor of Times podcast is Stephen Tetherington. There's probably loads of others we should mention. Save them for the New Year's honours. If we get that part.

Hope so.