The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e.36: Rhys Pender on why wine matters

Episode Date: February 12, 2015

Rhys Pender is a winemaker, farmer, writer, and holder of a rare designation: he is a Master of Wine.  A while back, Rhys wrote this post for the blog WineAlign, in which he argues that North America's food and wine culture is poorly integrated, and that this is holding both facets of the culture back.  I asked Rhys to join me on the podcast to talk about his piece. Herein, we discuss some of the barriers to achieving a more integrated food and wine culture, and why such an outcome would be better for that culture, and even for food security. Rhys and his partner Alishan Driediger make wines that can be found on their website, littlefarmwinery.ca. He also has a project called Wine Plus+.

So it's kind of, you know, where people still go into a restaurant, order this great food from a great chef, and then choose a wine completely for separate reasons, and they might not pair together at all, but, you know, people often don't seem to notice, or maybe they don't care, I don't know. That's Rhys Pender. Rhys is a farmer and winemaker from British Columbia who cares a lot about food and wine, and he recently joined me to explain an interesting assertion. Rhys thinks that North America's food and wine culture is unique, in that we kind of have two separate cultures, a food culture and a wine culture, with a big chasm in between. Rhys says this is holding both cultures back, and argues that a more integrated food and wine culture would be better for eaters, and even help increase food security.

This is the Ruminant Podcast, a show that wonders what good farming looks like. It's for farmers, gardeners, and people who care about food security and food politics. You can learn more at theruminant.ca. Okay, let's go. So here's what's going on at The Ruminant lately. I recently posted a piece of satire I wrote about the British Columbia Provincial Government's intention to completely restrict the use of the word organic in the marketplace to those who are certified. I hope you will check it out.

I also hope you are sharing good tidings about this podcast far and wide, because that would be really awesome. No messages left for me at the Skype number since last week's excellent call from Farmer Jack, but once again, I will remind you that I would love to hear from you about something unique or cool you're doing on your farm. Something you think other farmers would want to know about. To do so, call 310-734-8426 or email me at editor at theruminant.ca to arrange to have me call you. Okay, so here's today's guest followed by our conversation. I'll talk to you again at the end. I hope you enjoy. My name is Rhys Pender. I'm a master of wine, originally from Australia, now based in Causton in the Similkameen Valley. My wife and I, Ali

Shahan, we have a five acre farm here with four acres of vines, Riesling and Chardonnay. And so we're farming that organically and now making our own wine since 2011. I also have a business called Wine Plus where I do wine education, writing, judging, that kind of thing. And my wife and I also have a strong link to food. We've both done professional culinary training through the former DeBrule Culinary Institute in Vancouver. We did that back in 1998. And so basically since then we've always worked in the food and wine business. We owned a bakery making really top quality naturally leavened breads

called Okanagan Grocery for a few years, which we sold to a friend that still exists in Kelowna. And, you know, just have always, we've had a catering company, just always been involved in food and wine for at least the last kind of 16, 17 years anyway. Rhys Pender, thanks a lot for coming on the Ruminant Podcast. No problem. Rhys, the first question I want to ask you is a little bit flippant,

but I'm wondering if you get lots of Valentine's cards every year. Actually, no. Just from the kids. Well, we both do our thing in the Okanagan-Semilkameen region, and I meet a lot of people in this valley who have a pretty big crush on you. Oh, yeah, thanks. No, Rhys, you seem to command a lot of respect around here, and so I've been really excited to talk to you today.

So thanks again for doing this. Thanks for having me, yeah. Rhys, the second question I'll ask you before we actually get into the meat of this conversation is if you could briefly explain what a master of wine is because you are a master of wine and as i understand it's a little bit different from a sommelier and i don't think most people understand what what it is yeah i think a lot of people confuse the sommelier and other trades in the wine business so um you know there is a qualification called master sommelier as well so uh so sommelier is a job that's basically in the restaurant business so sommelier you know is at the restaurant helps pair food and wine it puts together wine lists guides customers to

you know to good pairings of food and wine, essentially, and finding the right wine for those people. So that's a real skill that's sort of heavily involved around the restaurant side of things. So the master of wine is probably a little bit more of a business-based qualification. We don't actually do how to serve wine or anything like that. It's more about understanding grape-growing winemaking, qualification. You know, we don't actually do how to serve wine or anything like that. We don't have, you know, it's more about understanding grape growing, winemaking, the business of wine,

contemporary issues, all that kind of side of things. So yeah, it took me about six and a half years to complete it, which I finished it in 2010. and there's only ever been a handful of canadians who have done it uh and i think there's only about three of us living in canada right now so yeah so there's not too many of us around so i mean i don't know if this is an appropriate question but if if you and a sommelier were standing in front of me and we're both going to uh improve my knowledge about wine like how how would how would that how what would each of your respective contributions be or your or your kind of what your focus would be it really depends kind of on what the question is right so i mean both sort of fields i guess you have to know a lot about the different grapes of the world the wine regions how those are made um the sommelier should be able to go into much more detail on, you know,

pairing wine, serving wine, and that side of the business where a master of wine might be able to tell you about that wine and the, you know, issues facing that region as a whole, you know, marketing into different international markets around the world and that kind of thing, right? So we, you know, as a master of wine, you have to sort of try and keep up to date, you know, on what is the industry like for sales in South America or Asia or the UK or, you know, the different states of the US and how their systems work. And so you really kind of have to have a different type of knowledge, I guess. systems work and so you really kind of have to have a a different type of knowledge i guess yeah it sounds to me then like like a sommelier is a little more focused on some of the technical aspects of consuming wine and flavor and and that sort of thing whereas whereas it sounds like you're

a lot more focused on business and the culture of wine then yeah i think so yeah i think that that's fair and you know and and the sommelier has to be able to have a lot of recall very quickly right so they have to be able to sort of answer questions on the spot. And if you do the master sommelier training, it's, you know, basically it's all done verbally, like the exam, I believe, anyway. And, you know, so it's just sort of questions on the spot. You have to be able to answer them as if you are at a table with guests, right? answer them as if you are at a table with with guests right whereas the master wine is a lot more about sort of research and and writing organizing ideas and that kind of things right okay well that's that's thank you for that uh i i partly was really curious and thought i

think other people will be but partly i just wanted to establish your credentials before we get into this topic and the topic the topic is does touch on wine culture in Canada and about a year ago now quite a while ago I wrote I wrote excuse me I I read a really interesting article you wrote for a blog called wine align in which you you talked about how there is a bit of a gap between food culture and wine culture in Canada. Kind of like we have a strong food culture and we have a strong wine culture, but unlike other areas of the world, there's a bit of a chasm between the two. And it was a really interesting read. I'm going to put the link up on my website for listeners to check it out. But I was hoping we could talk a little

bit about that today. I'm just going to do a little bit of paraphrasing or quoting from your article just to give a little bit more context. You started off by saying until more recently, there wasn't a really strong Canadian cuisine and that the wine industry was set more on maximizing subsidies than making quality wine. But you go on to say that that is as rapidly changed and that both sides of the culinary scene have vastly improved. changed and that both sides of the culinary scene have vastly improved and we've got some really respectable wine being made in Canada as well as a really burgeoning food scene. Then I'll quote you, you write, what is missing is where the two cultures come together. The understanding and more importantly the pairing and enjoying of wine and food as one, enjoying wine and food as one common practice, end quote.

And then you go on to say food and wine cultures have developed separately rather than together. Yeah, I mean, probably a little bit controversial for some people because I think there are a lot of people in both sides, the wine and the food industry, working really hard to help create this culture. But the way I just kind of feel about it is I see, you know, this wine culture developing and I see this food culture developing. You know, there's so many great chefs and using local food and ingredients and really, you know, doing the right thing there. And same in the wineries, but we don't have that tie of, you know, a pairing of a classic food with a classic wine in the region. We just don't have that sort of natural link that, you know,

people automatically know what wine to have with what food and, you know, would have that on every occasion basically. So it's kind of, you know, where people will still go into a restaurant, order this great food from a great chef and then choose a wine completely separate for separate reasons and they might not pair together at all but you know people often don't seem to notice or maybe they don't care i don't know so i think i'd like to start by asking you can you can you give some tell me what the signs are of this chasm? Like, just within the Canadian food and wine scene, what indicators are there that there's this gap between the two?

If, you know, in a restaurant or in the home? But in a home, I think the signs is just people do not have any understanding of that food and wine pairing. And because we haven't had it culturally, historically, then it can only be taught. And there's not very many opportunities unless someone seeks out to go and take a course pairing food and wine together you know they're not going to really know what to think about and and what to consider and you know i think you know if you look at both the the food and the wine industries they're pretty new right so we haven't had a whole lot of time for these things to develop and whereas in other places in the world they might have kind of grown up sort of at the same time you know here i think we've got the

food industry marketing itself purely for the food the quality of ingredients you know restaurants marketing themselves and then wineries doing the same thing and and they're all just trying to sell their stuff right so you know a winery what they think most people will buy as a type of wine could be and often is i believe the complete opposite of the wine that naturally pairs well with the food of our different regions and so they're sort of going off in two different directions if you like the food one way and the wine the other way all trying to meet the needs of the market, but not doing it at all together. And the other part of that is by doing that, with that marketing, with all the efforts that say the wineries are putting into selling their wines and trying to follow these styles

that they believe the consumer is looking for, they're training the consumer that that is the right style of wine. And yet, to me, it's kind of following a path that is not the wines, A, we naturally produce well in say British Columbia or in Ontario, and B, not wines that go well with our food naturally. Okay, so can you contrast that a bit to a country that has a really integrated food and wine culture? What do you see there? What would I commonly see if I went over that would surprise me compared to what I would see in Canada? What's happening on a restaurant table in France that is less common here? Yeah, and I'm sure

nowhere's perfect, but I think, you know, you say France is a good example. You go into a restaurant and order a food and everyone it's kind of common knowledge that you would serve you know this wine with that that dish from that region and it's usually the local wine with the local you know local dish as well right and so people just seem to really have that just built in understanding of why that is going to pair. And maybe they can't articulate it and talk about balance of acid and sweetness and body and tannins and all that stuff. Maybe they don't even think about that, but they just sort of seem to inherently know what wine will match well with that dish. It's kind of been trained into them over generations

and and then is it is it also the case that i mean is it just more common to have a bottle of wine on the table in in france and other countries with more integrated food food and wine culture definitely yeah you know i think like canada if we our consumption uh you know per capita consumption in the world scheme of things is really quite low, right? So, and, you know, there's many, maybe many reasons for that. One, you know, yes, we can only grow grapes in a few parts of the country. And those places, you know, the industry is fairly new as well, right? I think there's also been in the past or in the initial days, too, there was a lot of skepticism amongst the consumers that we even could make quality wine, which I think is, you know, pretty much completely gone today.

10, like 15 years ago, when I first started in the business, you would constantly hear, oh, we can't make good wine in B.C. You know, definitely red wine would never try a B.C. red wine, you know, can't make good wine in BC you know definitely red wine would never try a BC red wine you know can't do it and then within just a few years after that people were you know actively seeking out the wines and the red wines and and you know it's it's changed pretty pretty rapidly but uh so there was that sort of missing uh respect you know if one there wasn't an industry then two there was skepticism around it and then three you know we've we've always lived in this uh system with the the liquor board controlling the wines using these percentage based markup systems and the restaurants have

followed through and use these percentage based mark systems. And essentially all that does is encourage people to buy cheaper, lower-quality wine all the time because if you have to pay a higher margin to buy a better wine, it's going to dumb down people, right? So a lot of things like that, I think they all come together and really just reduce. they all come together and really uh just you know reduce it sort of you know stops people being able to even build and gain that uh that interest in in good quality wine well okay so i really want to focus on that that that uh the the notion of of different type different ways to mark

up wine i'm just going to do that in one sec i just want to talk i just stick with the broader topic for one one more uh question yeah and, this might be a hard one to answer, but I just want to, I mean, it's, it's also the obvious question, which is, you know, why does it matter? But I'll, I'll, I'll try and direct that a little more specifically. If, if I'm going out for, for a good meal or, or I just, I'm going to be eating some good food, whether it's expensive food or reasonably priced food. To your mind, why would it be a better experience for me or why would it be better for Canadians to be going out and eating that good food but also having an appropriately paired bottle of wine on the table? Yeah, well, to me, and, you know, I am geekier than most on this, but to me, it's part of the dish, right?

Like, it's perfectly possible to make both the food and the wine taste better by pairing them well together, right? So you just really enhance the experience. And, you know, if you're someone who doesn't drink wine at all, then it won't matter, right? But, you know, it's something like if you pair the right wine with the right food, it enhances that whole overall experience. The food tastes better, the wine tastes better, the meal is better, people have a better time, you know, they linger over food, they talk as families, you know, you could go on and on, I think, right, of sort of the benefits of doing that. And there's not really any other products that can be part of a meal so naturally and actually contribute to the, you know, the experience and enjoyment of it. Okay, well, no, that makes some sense. And yet we have legions of Canadians who don't commonly have that bottle of wine on the table. And you go over a few reasons for why you think that's the case, which is the kind of crux of your argument here. So let's start

with the percentage-based markup issue that you mentioned, because I thought that was really interesting. And as someone not really kind of up on this stuff, that was what I kind of was the most illuminating, I suppose. So I'm going to try and sum it up. What you're essentially arguing is that most restaurants or other liquor vendors, the way that they do their markups is based on a percentage of the wholesale price of a given bottle of wine. Yeah. And that to your view, if instead there was simply just a standard markup, regardless of the price of the wholesale bottle of wine. Let's just arbitrarily say it's $20.

They're going to mark up any bottle of wine $20. If they pay $20 for the bottle, they're going to mark it up to $40. If they pay $100 per bottle, they're going to mark it up to $120. Do I have that right? Yeah. Okay, so what benefit would that confer or how would that contribute to more wine consumption? Well, I think it allows people just to choose the wine that they want to have without the pressure of price, right? So if it is, you know, a lot of restaurants will use a 100% markup.

And just to clarify, you used the term wholesale price. So one thing we should be clear on is in British Columbia, restaurants actually don't get a wholesale price. They have to pay the full retail price and then market up from there, which is kind of crazy that they can't actually buy at a lower rate. So it's something in the news right now that they're announcing new pricing for starting April 2015. There's a lot of controversy over what they've proposed.

Again, it's a new percent-based system, but to create a wholesale price, but then still forcing the restaurants to buy at an inflated retail price off the government stores. So what you end up getting is like a direct percentage markup on the retail price that the wine is in the liquor stores. So, you know, if you, let's say it's 100% markup on a $20 wine, you'd pay $40, same as your example. But if it's a $100 wine, you pay $100 markup to the restaurant for the same thing. For someone to open a bottle of wine and bring it to the table and pour it for you, all of a sudden now that's $100 instead of $20. So you're effectively punished.

If you want to go for a higher quality bottle of wine, you effectively just get punished. Yeah. Yeah, so to me, that is going to force people to push their spending down, right? And therefore, with wine, it's not always true, but it's very often true, the more you spend, the better you get, right? So if you're encouraging people to keep going down, down, down, you're dumbing down that overall experience. And plus, if they do go up to a wine they really like they pay a lot for it and they're probably going to go out a lot

less often so essentially i mean if and just in case someone still hasn't grasped this who's listening i mean if i know i'm going to spend 50 bucks at the restaurant on a bottle of wine, um, and I know that generally speaking, the restaurant is probably doing a, just a flat markup of 20 bucks. Uh, that way I know exactly the quality of wine that I'm getting for that 50. I'm getting around a $30 bottle of wine, you know? Um, yeah, right. No, I mean, I could say that I can say almost, I can say confidently that would change the way that I enjoy wine in a restaurant. I think that's a really good point. But I do want to ask, are there other places where they actually do it this other way? Like, can you point to countries where it is more commonly just a flat markup?

I think, you know, in a lot of places, there'd be sort of a flat markup or, you know, or at least a much lower markup. Because if you take, you know, it's the storm of like the government taxes, the government retail rate, the restaurant has to buy that and then they mark it up on that. You know, we end up having some of the most expensive wine on wine lists that I've seen anywhere in the world. You know, so you're paying a percent on a percent on a percent on, you know, it seems to go on forever, right? So you're paying a percent on a percent on a percent.

It seems to go on forever, right? And then I've seen like in many other places, well, many other places there'll be a wholesale restaurant rate. So if the price starts lower and then they use a percentage markup, it's not as punishing as if it's the full retail price know, let's say someone might see a wine in a retail store and then in a restaurant, the prices are not going to be that different. Whereas if someone in BC knows what the retail price is of the wine they're buying in the restaurant, you know, it's often considerably,

you know, more, right? And you can literally see how much you're paying to, you know, for that experience. And I mean, the restaurants need to make money too, you know, and it's not easy for them having to pay these high base prices for the wine and the storage and everything. So, you know, so I understand that that's an issue, but it's, from my experience anyway,

there's a lot higher, you know, margin taken off wine here than in other places. And maybe it's because people don't drink as much wine, or maybe that's why they don't drink as much wine. Well, I was going to say, Rhys, it seems like what you're sort of getting at, or the subtext of your argument, to getting at or or or you know some the subtext of your argument is that uh perhaps the restaurants would ultimately be better off if we could create a culture where there was way more often than not a bottle of wine on the table at a meal i've been to plenty of meals where there's no wine on the table and it's also because of the price and i think people would go out more often if you look at food prices in restaurants around the world are not that different, right? They're usually, you know, you pay for the quality of food you get. But, you know, in a lot of places, if it's similar, you know, costs of living in a place,

the food prices are going to be the same. But the wine prices vary hugely, right, in the different parts of the world. And, you know, I've been in washington state just across the border here and there's wines on restaurant wine lists for cheaper than we can buy them at retail in in bc you know and just just because of all these different markup systems in australia where i'm from originally you know a lot of places will just charge a very small corkage fee and they seem to be able to you know make a living off the off the food for the most part right and you know and people end up going out a lot more often so if you're saving 30 40 percent every time you go out to dinner my guess

is that you will actually probably go out to dinner more often and if the restaurants you know are fuller everyone benefits right right through to down to you know you the farmer right so if people are eating out in restaurants more and uh you know i i really feel there's a deterrent in in the wine prices i've been to restaurants in bc where i'll i'll drink beer just because i refuse to pay the like huge margins that sometimes charging I've seen like 300 and 400 percent markups and I haven't I usually know what the price of that wine is that's on the list at retail and I you know I just can't bring myself to pay you know like so many dollars on a 15 wine as a markup to the restaurant. And it's crazy. Yeah. Well, so Rhys, there were, there's some other points you make that you believe,

some other problems in Canada that, that, that hold back the joining of the, of the food and wine cultures. But I'm going to leave it to listeners to go in and read the article if they, if they want to read them, because there's a lot more you have to say. It's really interesting. to go in and read the article if they want to read them, because there's a lot more you have to say. It's really interesting. But Rhys, before I let you go, I just wanted to get your thoughts on a related topic.

And I guess I'll frame it like this. There have been some changes to the rules for selling wine in British Columbia in the last year or so. And now some wineries are allowed to provide samples and sell bottles of wine at farmers markets in BC. And this created a really great opportunity for certain wineries. What was interesting is at my local farmer's market,

which is crammed with vendors, it's very hard for vendors to get in. And there's a real emphasis on making sure that there's a certain percentage of farmers at the market. There was very limited space for wine vendors when these new rules came in. And it also sort of stirred a discussion among farmers at the market and more specifically the board of directors of the market about whether that market wanted to make space for those wine vendors. to make space for those wine vendors. And that was part of a broader debate about where wineries and vineyards fit in the context of food security.

I happen to know that in this valley or this region, there's a decent amount of animosity towards the wine industry. It's actually seen as hurting food security because of all the acres that are being torn out, you know, orchard and other crops being torn out to put in vines. I'm wondering how you feel about that, because I think I'm just going to ask my listeners to trust me that you are very committed to a strong food system. I can just, I can say that with confidence. But How do you feel about that point of view, Rhys?

I think it's really just another crop. It's not just orchards going to grapes. It's one type of fruit tree going to another type of fruit tree or maybe it's a grapevine. Right now, we actually have an oversupply of grapes in the province and people are pulling out, I've heard a number of stories of people pulling out vineyards and putting in more apples or something again, right? But I mean, it's a constant trend of change and people planting what they think they're going to make the most money on, right? And so, you know, I look at the samilkameen valley and i was reading something when i first moved here that there used to be something like four or five tomato canning factories in the samilkameen you know and that's that's what was done here and then now there's a

little bit of you know tomatoes but certainly not nothing like that scale right you know the south okanagan used to be known for melon production. And then, you know, it's constantly changing and evolving with the market. And, you know, the wine industry burned in the mid-2000s. And a lot of people planted grapes because they wanted to get in on that. It probably happened a little bit quickly. And now we're, you know, dealing with that little bit of oversupply that will actually is going to take a few years to to balance out so it's um you know i i certainly don't

think we're going to see everything ripped out for for grapes because there's a market for all of these products and you know the level the amount of of market for each product is going to depend on the quality of it, who's doing it, and how successful they are. And it's not just grapes versus fruit and vegetables. It's really about supply and demand. Is there any way that vineyards can be considered an important part of regional food security? I mean, because I think that's what it comes down to. Some people just see it as taking food out of people's mouths or something like that.

Yeah, I mean, in terms of environmental impact, the vineyards are often much better than, from what I understand anyway, a lot of the other fruit, crops, and vegetables, particularly in terms of water use, a vineyard on drip irrigation, I don't know the exact numbers, but it uses a huge amount less than the typical orchard. So having the vineyards as part of that system, I think really reduces the overall water impact on a region, which can be beneficial. Really, too, the grapes in the dry climate that we have in the Okanagan and Similkameen, it's pretty easy to grow grapes with very low inputs of chemicals and things like that right so there's really uh again you know from what i understand versus a lot of other crops right so so really in in that sense you know

they're actually giving a positive contribution to the the area right right and uh i i suppose if we go back just to your your vision for just a more integrated food and wine culture um i don't know i suppose you could make a case that that that a culture that celebrates both is just going to be more uh intimate with with food and wine in general which which i maybe indirectly can contribute to to a more uh i don't know about food security, that's the tough one, but certainly more people who understand or are more in tune with their regional agriculture. Yeah, I think, you know, and yeah, I mean, it's hard to say, right? But there's, you know, there's a lot of, plenty of place still to produce food in, you know,

in our region here anyway, but there's not a whole lot of places that can produce good quality grapes. So there's a lot of land that will not have vineyards on it ever just because it's not suitable for that type of growing. So there's always going to be, I think it'll max itself out at a point, you know, way before the use of land that might be suitable for other fruits and vegetables is taken up. I guess, I suppose that, I mean, another, I just, I know that another, I guess, beef certain people have or concern anyway.

I mean, and even I've had this concern, especially as i'm a i'm a landless farmer i don't own land it just seems like the effect of the burgeoning wine industry in the okanagan samilkameen has been to put a lot of upward pressure on land prices is that would that be fair to say yeah i think that's true and i mean that that is certainly something i i would agree on you know a lot of the people get into the wine business. It's sort of a dream people have had and it's a very expensive thing to get into. My wife and I, we've done it the old school way. We just bought a small place and the land was cheaper in cost in here so we were able to do it. We haven't had any big funding from anywhere else and just basically done it from the ground up and but if you look at a lot of the the vineyards being planted and you know they it's money coming in from another industry and

you know and they're you know some lots of basically no expenses spared to try and create this dream that they have. So, I mean, you could look at another benefit of, you know, yes, definitely the land prices have gone up and that makes it harder for some of the other products that can't get the same prices because, you know, wine, selling grapes is not that profitable, but selling wine is profitable. But, you know, so it's got that value add that a lot of other fruits and vegetable products don't, you know, don't have the option of.

But then it's also not easy to sell that amount of wine. But on the flip side of that, you know, you look at the tourism that it brings and, you know, the number of people that come and understand the regions and you know there's no reason why reputation for wine can't also link to reputation for certain foods from an area right if you look to yeah yeah reese i have to say like that's kind of where i'm at now you know when i moved here four years ago i was really in the camp of feeling pretty negative about the effect of the wine industry in the region because of increased land prices. And because it's not I mean, technically, it's just not it's not food that's being grown. Right.

Yeah. But now that I'm like I'm making a living here and I've come to understand the wine culture a lot more. I have I just have a different view of it. I mean, almost half my business is is based on sales to chefs who absolutely love what I'm growing. And it's very important to my business. And that's the result of an integrated agriculture and wine, a great producing region that attracts a lot of people to come up and spend dollars here and eat really lovely food. And so this culture has developed developed maybe even the culture that you're you're hoping that all of canada can achieve that that i don't know i i'm certainly a lot more supportive than i once was of of the role of of grapes in yeah i agree it would definitely be you know it's definitely improving you're seeing people interested and and they come

and visit here and they they're buying wine from wineries they visit and love. But they also have their favorite fruit stands and farmer's market stands, right, where they'll buy tomatoes from this person and Jordan's carrots and whatever else. People, even I'm sure you've seen that, you get known for certain things that you do really well. You get known for certain things that you do really well. And people are coming from Vancouver and Calgary and places to this area with that in mind. So it's definitely starting to happen, right? But it's on a small scale, but everything starts from a small scale. Right.

Rhys, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast. I'm really excited for people to learn about this article you wrote. But before we go, you should mention your winery what what's what's what's your you know if people want to try and seek out your wine how do they do that oh thanks yeah so it's a it's very small but as we call it little farm winery so uh just you know just make a few hundred cases but we're farming our grapes organically very sort of hands-off winemaking. So we make a Riesling, a Chardonnay, and a Rosé. Yeah, and just good, crisp, dry, fresh wines. They can check out the website, littlefarmwinery.ca,

and there's a list of where the wines can be bought. And, you know, they're in a number of top restaurants in Vancouver and the Okanagan. Do you do any shipping? Yeah, we can ship directly to people. You know, they're in a number of top restaurants in Vancouver and the Okanagan. And yeah. Do you do any shipping? Yeah, we can ship directly to people. You can order wine online. And yeah, we just charge like 15 bucks a case within BC for shipping. So yeah, definitely available. Right on.

Okay, well, thanks again, Rhys. I really appreciate it. Yeah, no worries, man. I hope you like that, folks. Not sure what I'll have for you next week. I've got a few different banked episodes to choose from. Oh, and it's been a while since I've mentioned that the music that provides the bookends to each episode

is produced by my wife, Vanessa. Thanks, Vern. And see you all next week, or maybe before that at theruminant.ca. Take care. Because why would we live in a place that don't want us A place that is trying to bleed us dry. We could be happy with life in the country, with salt on our skin and the dirt on our hands. I've been doing a lot of thinking, some real soul searching, and here's my final resolve.

I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong. So we'll run right out into the wilds and braces. Ride out into the wilds and braces We'll keep close quarters with gentle faces And live next door to the birds and the bees And live life like it was meant to be Bye.