The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e.61: Growing Perennial Fruits: Jim Riddle and Blue Fruit Farm

Episode Date: November 14, 2015

At Blue Fruit Farm in Minnesota, Jim Riddle and Joyce Ford grow a range of perrenial tree fruit and berries of the blue and nearly-blue kind. In our conversation, Jim Riddle talks about why he and Joyce switched to perennial crops from annual market veggies, considerations for establishing a farm like his, and how he and Joyce have approached their marketing. You can find out more at bluefruitfarm.com. More info about Jim's production practices can be found in the expanded show notes for this episode at http://theruminant.ca

Hi folks, this is Jordan. The intro to today's episode was recorded on the recording app on my smartphone. The reason I'm doing that is because I want to show you how easy it is for you to record something on your app on your smartphone. Press the share icon and then email it to editor at the ruminant dot ca. I think this is probably the easiest way for you to record anything you want to share with a ruminant. Lately, I've been working on two separate episodes about farming with small children and what farmers are doing in the winter for work to pair up with their farming income. If you have anything for those two topics you'd like to share, try your voice app out. Try emailing me. See how it works out. I promise I'll edit out any mistakes so you don't need to press start and stop a bunch of times. Or if you have any other insights you want to share, please send them along. A good question to ask yourself is,

what's the best decision you made in your farm or on your farm in the last couple years? I'm sure other people would love to hear about it. Okay, let's do a show. This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant is a website and podcast that explores what good farming looks like. At theruminant.ca, you'll find photo-based blog posts, essays, gear and book reviews, as well as show notes for each episode of the podcast. I tweet at ruminantblog, and you can email me day or night at editor at theruminant.ca. Okay, on with the show. Today's episode features my conversation with Jim Riddle of Blue Fruit Farm in southeastern Minnesota. I first learned about Jim and Blue Fruit Farm at the Moses Organic Farming Conference in Wisconsin last year,

and I thought the idea of a farm that focuses on perennial fruits, and more specifically, perennial fruits of a certain hue, was really cool. Our conversation starts with why Jim and his wife decided to switch from market vegetables to perennial fruits, and then covers a wide range of considerations if you're going to try this out for yourself, including variety selection, site preparation, marketing, and a few other things. If you want to learn more than is contained in this interview, you can head over to the show notes for this episode at theruminant.ca where you'll find more information about what Jim Riddle is doing, including a PDF that summarizes his production practices

and a link to his website, bluefruitfarm.com. Jim Riddle, thanks a lot for joining me on the Ruminant Podcast. Yeah, it's my pleasure, Jordan. Thanks for asking. Jim, your resume and pedigree in organic agriculture is very long, but today I'm mainly interested in talking to you about your farm, Blue Fruit Farm. And I thought we could start by having you take me back a little because you used to grow market annuals primarily when you were farming. And then when you got back into farming years later, you switched to the perennials that you're growing on blue fruit farms. So I thought you

could tell me really briefly about your first farming of market annual crops, and then tell me why you switched over to perennials with your latest effort. Yeah, well, when we were doing the farmer's market, you know, you really need a wide variety of products on the stand to draw the customer's attention. And, you know, in Minnesota, you pretty much have to have tomatoes and sweet corn, and then people want potatoes. And then we added, you know, cut flowers, which amazes me that people, you know, spend the money they will on a bunch of flowers, but then they want a cheaper price on potatoes. Going to keep them alive. But anyway, we did that, like I said, for a number of years. But then

we rented out the land that we were farming to another organic farmer, Featherstone Fruits and Vegetables. And he put up an eight-foot-high deer fence. And that was always the number one pest of ours. And we'd done a number of different things. We have a very high deer population and that was really always the number one pest of ours and we'd done a number of different things we have very high deer population in our area but jack put up a eight foot high deer fence around this about five acre field and then he farmed it for a number of years but the agreement always was that if he pulled out that the fence would stay. So we were left with five acres of weeds that were protected from the deer. And my wife had the idea of planting blueberries, which is an easy thing to say, but it's not so easy to do on any large scale. But that was really the beginning of getting back into production.

But some of the reasons we went into perennials, avoiding tillage is a big one, but also growing some things that are well adapted to more extreme weather events and changing climate and things that attract pollinators and then produce high value, high antioxidant, really intense, condensed value. So, you know, there's quite a bit of work for harvesting and, you know, a fair amount of, you know, one-time effort of pruning. But then once you have the fruit, they have a lot of value, and very healthy, and also introducing people to a lot of new crops that aren't being grown in this area or sold in the markets.

Right. And, you know, when I was thinking about this interview leading up to it, I was left wondering if another motivation was the difference in the selling environment from years ago when you were growing market crops compared to now. In terms of, I guess, profitability or market share or whatever, was that a factor as well? As far as competing with other producers, that was a factor in the selection of some of the things that we are growing. I mean, there's a lot of apples grown in this area, so we've really stayed out of apples, even though they're a perennial. grown in this area, so we've really stayed out of apples, even though they're a perennial.

But there aren't a lot of plums being grown, so that was a more open market. And then there aren't a lot of organic blueberries grown in our part of Minnesota, Wisconsin area. And then these other things like aronia and black currants, elderberries were much more cutting edge as far as, I like to say that blueberries are difficult to grow, but they sell themselves. These other things are easier to grow, but you have to sell them. And we've really had to do a number of, you know, workshops, promotional events, tastings to educate people on what these other fruits are and how to use them. And so part of it's also just kind of the challenge, the, you know, taking on something new and helping broaden people's food choices. Right. Well, let's talk a little bit about your farm and its specific crops and

its branding, because it's pretty interesting. Your farm is called Blue Fruit Farm, and primarily you're growing fruit of, perennial fruit of that hue. Right, right. I mean, there are certain qualities to blue fruits, health-promoting qualities, and typically very high vitamin antioxidants, and some have natural antiviral properties. But yeah, we have a few criteria. Primarily, the fruit needs to be blue. The plants can't have thorns, so we don't grow gooseberries or raspberries or blackberries. And they need to be at least knee high because I'm a tall guy and I don't want to be groveling on the ground picking

things that are really low. So those are some of the things, and then perennial, of course, and grow in our climate. Well, and I have to imagine that at some point, it can't, I mean, it must have been a conscious decision to focus on blue, at least partially for marketing purposes. It seems like a really great way to, to brand your farm. Well, right. And we've gotten, you know, quite a bit of attention, I think, because of it. There have been a couple different TV shows that we've been a part of and a number of, you know, interviews and local media, newspaper-type stuff.

So I think that has, you know, it's captured people's attention, and I think that's important for growers to think through as they're planning their crops, their farm name, their marketing strategies is, if at all possible, you know, marketing strategies is, if at all possible, something that can catch the attention of both the media and then ultimately the consumer, the buyer, or the restaurants you're working with. So I've got to ask, even though probably it's the obvious answer, you don't want plants with thorns because what, they make you, they're just too annoying? Well, yeah, I mean, it's the, everything we pick is done by hand,

and so that's just one less irritant, you know, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those crops, it's just our choice not to have things, actually my wife's choice, that's one of her checkoffs on the list of criteria is no thorns. And it's in our book. And Jim, you mentioned a really smart decision. checkoffs on the list of criteria as no thorns. Jim, you mentioned a really smart decision. You didn't want to grow stuff that grew too low. Were there any ruled out?

Are there any that would otherwise fit your farm but you aren't growing because they grow too low? One of them that it's not blue so it doesn't meet that, but we do get requests for lingonberries. And I really, because they're not blue, I haven't looked into them, but they're very short also. So that's a big count against them.

And a lot of people, you know, think fruit, they think strawberries, and those are very problematic and management intensive, plus they're down on the ground. So that's another one that gets ruled out. Even if there were a blue strawberry, I wouldn't grow it. So before we, now I just want to kind of segue into talking about how to set one of these, a farm like this up and some of the production considerations. But I think we should start. We've been talking about Blue Fruit Farm. Can you give me a list of the crops you're growing on the farm? Yeah, well, we have quite a few different varieties of blueberries, and something about blueberries is... Hi, folks. This is Jordan cutting in during editing of this

episode with Jim Riddle. Jim's answer to my question about what varieties he was growing was so thorough that I decided to pull it out and include it as a separate audio file, which you can access at the show notes for this episode at theruminant.ca. It was just a little bit too long to include in this episode. For those of you who are interested in the topic, but not so interested that you want to hear Jim talk about it in quite a lot of detail about all the different fruits and berries he's growing, including growing considerations and varietal considerations. So for those of you who are, you can head over to the ruminant and check out this separate audio file, as well as a

short PDF summarizing all of Jim's considerations in terms of starting a perennial fruit farm. So for our purposes here, I will just list off the main crops on Blue Fruit Farm. Jim and his wife are growing blueberries, elderberries, black currants, blue plums, cherry plums, aronia berries, service berries, which are also known as Saskatoon or June berries, josta berries, honey berries, as well as New Jersey tea. Okay, back to my talk with Jim. as well as New Jersey tea. Okay. Back to my talk with Jim. Okay. So, so Jim, I'm going to take us now through, I guess, different production considerations. And I thought I could start by asking you about site preparation, since it, it seems like from what I read, you were pretty thoughtful about it. And also you, you didn't rush it. You took your

time. And so could you talk about your site prep and, and, and, and why you you didn't rush it you took your time and so yeah could you talk about your site prep uh and and and and why you thought it was important to take your time with it yeah well um you know when you're uh planting perennials you're only doing it once uh hopefully so you want to do it right so really uh you know making sure that the site itself is conducive to the crop you're trying to grow. So our field that we were planting in has total sunlight, so full sun and good air flow. And that's another critical thing is you don't want to be putting some of these fruit crops in a pocket where moist air settles or you get, you know, unpredictable frost. So sunlight penetration and good airflow, critical. And of course, you can't change that, but you got to work with what you have. And then, you know, doing soil testing,

and we believe in adding the micronutrients based on the soil test, so we did that, but also making sure that, you know, there's adequate macronutrients and that the pH was adjusted. The first year, because of the weed seed load that had built up in a couple years, we didn't plant any fruit. We planted wheat and oats and various clovers as cover crops to get the weed situation under control. So one full year of cover cropping before we even started planting any of the

perennials. And then we broke it up into a three-year planting plan. So we weren't trying to do everything all at once. So we did about a third of the field each year over the course of three years and continued to cover crop the parts that weren't being planted. So we're growing in strips for future planting things like buckwheat and sorghum Sudan grass to help break weed cycles and add organic matter. And we were also adding a lot of composted horse manure and peat moss and elemental sulfur and did soil testing and soil balancing of micronutrients to have the soil where we wanted it to be because blueberries, of course, need a very acidic soil in the range of 5 to 5.5 pH,

and our native pH is around 6.8. So we really work to bring that pH down for the blueberries. Now, some of the other things we're choosing to grow aren't so fussy, and they're happy with our soil the way it is. So them, it's just basic fertility, adding compost. And I already went through what we've done, but just to reiterate, you know, to bring the pH down for the blueberries, which are the really critical one there, soil testing, and then adding elemental sulfur, which when it mixes with either irrigation water or rainwater, makes a weak sulfuric acid solution, and that works down into the soil. But also adding a horse manure compost that had oak, hardwood sawdust bedding, and then mulching with either pine needles or hardwood bark mulch that's ground up

and working in peat moss when we do our plantings. So we and we might monitor the soil pH twice a year spring and fall in the the same locations. And that's not something that you just do once. You need to keep on top of it and top dress with additional elemental sulfur and compost. And right now we're managing to use a dairy compost that has had peat moss added to it. So it's coming in at about 6.5 pH. And then we're, you know, bringing things down further with the sulfur. So, you know, and then some of the other critical site preparation, just getting the perennial weeds and annual weeds under control as best possible. But they keep coming. I mean, that's just part of the job description is there's going to be weeds to deal with.

But trying to get them knocked back is well worth the effort in advance. So that's a lot of the – and we did a lot of cover cropping as I went through earlier. And we even subsoiled, went through with a single tooth, kind of a subsoiler ripper and broke up any plate plow pan to help with root penetration, help moisture flow, help nutrients flow. So that was something we only did once, but before planting, we went through all the rows and did subsoiling. And then everything we've planted has drip irrigation, and it's a permanent line. It's not drip tape. So it's three quarter inch black piping with emitters, two emitters at 10 gallons per hour. And then it's all run by a solar 12 volt pump. And we've got about 6,000 gallons of water storage. We collect rainwater off the roof of an

equipment shed that we built in the field, and then we also can pump well water as needed. So, you know, it all takes time to put in this infrastructure, and, you know, that's one of the things that years ago we were growing annuals because they don't take a lot of investment and you get a quick turnaround. This perennial is a later in life for us because you're putting in a lot of work before you get any return whatsoever. It's really just been the last two years, 2014 and 2015, where we've had much of anything to sell. So we put in, you know, three years with just, you know, okay, that tastes nice, just playing around and getting familiar with the fruits before we had really any measurable sales. So, you know, you need to have the resources one way or another to sustain that level of investment before you get any returns. That's just another thing to think through.

Jim, I wanted to ask you a related question, actually. I may as well ask you now. Is this something you would recommend to people like me who are on shorter-term leases? I mean, I know the obvious answer is probably no. Is there something you would recommend to people like me who are on shorter-term leases? I mean, I know the obvious answer is probably no, but are there certain of the barriers that would lend themselves better, or is there a minimum lease term that you would recommend having before you commit to this? Well, yeah, if you're leasing, I'd be looking at at least a five-year lease, if possible. But some of the ones that have a quicker turnaround, the black currants are producing in the second year, and then aronia also. By year three, you're getting good harvest.

Blueberries are frustratingly slow, at least for us. I mean, it's really, plants are just, and that's another recommendation I would have. If you are planting blueberries, And that's another recommendation I would have. If you are planting blueberries, to plant the biggest, oldest plants you can afford right up front. And we made that mistake. We planted smaller bare root stock where basically we lost two or three years of production by going cheap on the front end. So I'd say even if it's for for backyard garden, whatever, get the biggest, best plants you can get, you know, on the front end, and that's going to be much more rewarding just about in every regard compared to nursing small plants along, you know, the weed competition is worse. Um, you just got more attention to them. Um,

and, and, and with, you know, without even tasting the fruit, I mean, you're just watching these small plants grow. Uh, so, um, it's so interesting to hear you say that because I'm the kind of farmer who always thinks, Oh, I can get them cheaper if I get them younger and I'll take care of them from there. But that's a really good point. You lose a lot of ultimately production that way, just waiting for them and all the labor that goes into taking care of them. Right. I mean, yeah, they might appear twice as expensive than the front end or even three times as expensive.

But when you think about when they're going to produce fruit, they're going to start paying back a lot sooner. Okay, well, just one more question, follow up on the leasing idea. Like how, do any of these plants lend themselves to moving? If you had to move them? Yeah, yeah. The black currants, you could transplant,

or black currants are really easy to take stem cuttings and make new plants. And the same with the elderberries and aronia. So even if you don't move the plants, you can take stem cuttings and reproduce them for a new location. and reproduce them for a new location. And that way, if some of them didn't perform, you can leave them behind and select the ones that are working well for you and take those on the road. But blueberries, I've not been successful at doing stem cuttings from them, and there seems to be a fair amount of transplant shock as well. So I wouldn't recommend them.

And, of course, the plum trees, no. You could do grafting onto new rootstock somewhere, but otherwise you'd probably be best off just getting new plants. Or if you're into grafting, that's great. Then you've got more options. Okay. Jim, we're rapidly running out of time time so we're not going to cover everything but on on the on the on your on blue fruit farm stuff i'd love to talk a little bit about pests and then finish with

a bit of talk about marketing so yeah can you just give some general comments about um about pest considerations yeah well um i mentioned the eight-foot deer fence, and we wouldn't be able to successfully grow any of the things we're growing without deer protection. That's the number one pest for us. And then beyond that, birds really love all these fruits, just about. I mean, they aren't too bad on the, well, they really don't go after the aronia. Deer love the aronia bushes, so they have to be protected from deer. But, yeah, so we've gone to great lengths to try and first deter birds with putting up roots for raptors and fake owls and fake hawks and then a bird guard device

that's supposed to protect six acres and it you know has these chips that have different recordings of both predators and the stress calls of the target birds but it's not the kind of thing that you can have on when you're up there working because it'll drive you nuts. But, you know, it can be randomized so it goes in different sequences and at different time intervals. And you can change the chips of the nine different calls that are going out. And I think it helps, but it certainly, before we had netting, we were still losing a

very alarming, frustrating amount of our fruit to the birds, especially things like the serviceberry, the blueberry, and the honeyberry. Those are the things that are just crazy. And it's not exotic birds. These are robins, but also bluebirds, cedar waxwings, which are a flocking bird that just love fruit. So, you know, if you're making the investment and doing all the site preparation and then essentially have created a very expensive bird feeder, it's not all that rewarding. And so we went to a great length over the last couple years of putting up what's called a smart net system. There's overhead netting over about three and a half acres. The plum trees and aronia bushes are not netted,

but the rest of our fruit is netted. And so there are overhead netting and then side curtains as well. So you're working inside a net house, essentially, when you're in the field. But it has made all the difference in the world as far as being able to allow our fruit to ripen, number one, and then be harvested by humans instead of by birds. And we had to, because we're certified organic, had to source untreated wood posts because we needed 12-foot posts to hold the wire up at least nine feet. And then there's a series of guy wires that support the netting overhead.

And then at the end of the season, you push the netting back on those wires to the end of the row and then kind of tie it up. And then we even put a layer of black plastic over it to help prevent UV degrading. And then I don't know how many years we can get out of it. They say up to 20, but I'll be really surprised. But this will be the third year next year. So then you unfurl it, bring it out, clip it all up, and close the side curtains you unfurl it bring it out clip it all up and close the side curtains unfurl

them and then uh it really does keep the birds out so that's a major you know test for us do you have a suggestion for for for how someone can gain learn about the knowledge and uh materials to do that like how would someone go about figuring out how to build a netting system like that? Can you point that out? Yeah, well, just doing a search for SmartNet. Okay. And this system has been used in other countries in Asia, Australia,

for many years, and then has come in in British Columbia. The dealer we went through is out of Maine. But there's not a lot of this being done yet in the U.S., but there's more and more in vineyards. And we first had tried individual row netting where we'd have hoops over the rows and then would, but that's really difficult for harvest and it wasn't all that effective either the birds would find a way under that even though we'd have it pinned down to the ground and um but then every time you go to harvest you've got to remove pull that up and then put it back

and a lot of times the netting would drag on the fruit, and then they'd go popping off. So this was much more successful and satisfying. But, yes, SmartNet is the system that we used. But I anticipate there will be more and more available in North America. So, Jim, you said, just moving on, you said blueberries sell themselves. How have you gone about marketing the lesser-known stuff? How have you been successful? Well, we have several different strategies. One is we get a surprising number of people sign up on our website,

bluefruitfarm.com, that are in the local area, say within 50 to 100 mile radius of us. And they indicate what fruits they're interested in. And then they get an email about two weeks before the fruits are ripe, letting them know that they're what what we're coming on, what our price is. And we sell typically by five pound boxes, both aronia and then a number of the other fruits to people. And then they you know, these things are easy freeze, so they can just put them in bags and pop them in the freezer and get out whatever

quantities they want. Or people make jams or jellies or juices with them. So we do quite a bit where people actually come to our farm or we arrange a drop-off of these five-pound boxes of fresh blue fruits. But then we also work, there's a lot of food co-ops in our area, and so we've sold quite a few clamshells, you know, retail packs through the food co-ops, and, you know, they put up signage. We've made some shelf talker point of purchase educational materials to help people know what these things are and how they can use them. And so I think that's really helped. And then there's a number of restaurants that we sell directly to, and then they put them in different pastries or glazes or, you know, experiment with them in their menu.

And they, you know, a number of restaurants these days highlight their producers, so they help educate people about Blue Fruit Farm, and then people seek us out because they had something at a restaurant they liked. And then we've been back to the farmer's market a little bit, but that's certainly not a primary marketing outlet for us. And we're just this week going to be delivering hundreds of pounds of frozen fruit to a restaurant in Minneapolis, and we're doing a joint jam project that'll be Birchwood Cafe, Blue Fruit Farm, project that'll be Birchwood Cafe, Blue Fruit Farm, line of different kinds of blue fruit jams and preserves. So we'll be co-marketing those. Jim Riddle, thank you so much for talking

about Blue Fruit Farm. It's such an interesting farm and approach, and I think my listeners will be really happy to hear about it. Yeah, well, thanks for inviting me. That's all, folks. I hope you enjoyed that. Head over to theromanin.ca if you want to gain some more information about what Jim Riddle's doing with Blue Fruit Farm, including that audio clip where Jim goes into 14 minutes of detail as he describes what he's growing and some of the considerations when choosing varieties and stuff like that.

Now, if you have ever considered making a submission to this podcast, now's the time to do it. Pull out your smartphone, turn on your recording app, and just record something. Then, press the share icon and email it to editor at the room.ca. While you're recording, you don't need to turn it off if you screw up. Just take a pause and then pick up where you left off. I'll take care of the rest in post-production. I'd love to hear from you. Editor at theruminant.ca.

There's still time to get submissions in for two episodes I'm working on. One on what kind of work you pair with your farming just to make ends meet. And farming with small children. Okay, talk to you soon have a great week like it was meant to be me because why would we live in a place that don't want us A place that is trying to bleed us dry We could be happy with life in the country With salt on our skin and the dirt on our hands.

I've been doing a lot of thinking, some real soul searching, and here's my final resolve. I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong. So we'll run right out into the wilds and graces We'll keep close quarters with gentle faces And live next door to the birds and the bees And live life like it was meant to be Bye.