The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e.62: The Rooftop Farm at Ryerson University

Episode Date: November 21, 2015

This episode of the podcast features an interview with Arlene Throness, the coordinator of a rooftop farm operated by a Ryerson University Gardening club called Rye's Homegrown, out of Ryerson University in Toronto. The interview was recorded and edited by Ruminant Podcast collaborator Scott Humphries. You need to see photos of this farm to believe it. This is no indoor hydroponic setup or series of pots and garden boxes. It's literally a quarter acre market garden on a roof. Arlene talks about the farm's history, as well as the challenges of growing CSA crops way, way up in the sky.  

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant Podcast and blog wonders what good farming looks like and aims to help farmers and gardeners share insights with each other. At theruminant.ca, you'll find show notes for each episode of the podcast as well as the odd essay, book review, and photo-based blog post. You can email me, editor at theruminant.ca, I'm at ruminantblog on Twitter, or search The Ruminant on Facebook.

Okay, on with the show. Hi folks. This episode of the podcast features an interview with Arlene Thronis, the coordinator of a rooftop farm operated by a Ryerson University gardening club called Rise Homegrown out of Ryerson University in Toronto. The interview was recorded and edited by Ruminant Podcast collaborator Scott Humphreys. Before I play the interview, I just want to set it up a little, mainly so that you have a bit of a visual in your head as you listen. The farm in question isn't composed of a bunch of pots or boxes, and it isn't an enclosed greenhouse that produces hydroponic veggies.

It is literally like a small farm field on a roof laid out in a grid of beds that produces a wide variety of crops for a CSA program and other sales. I'm looking at a photo of the garden, and if there weren't like the tops of buildings in the background, And if there weren't like the tops of buildings in the background, I would assume I was looking at a typical set of row crops in a typical market garden, you know, on the earth. It's fascinating. You can head over to the show notes for this episode at theruminant.ca to see some photos. I recommend it.

It's really cool. Okay, here you go. Scott Humphreys interviewing Arlene Thronis. Okay, here you go. Scott Humphreys interviewing Arlene Thronis. My name is Arlene Thronis, and I work here at Ryerson University at Rise Homegrown's quarter acre rooftop farm. This roof is actually called the Andrew and Valerie Pringle Environmental Green Roof. It was built in 2004 as part of the original infrastructure of the George Varey Engineering and Computing Centre, which is one of Ryerson's buildings on campus here at Yonge and Dundas. And the Green Roof was built to perform the functions of cooling the city, reducing the urban heat island effect, and also managing stormwater runoff so that the soil and the plants soak up the

water so that it drains more slowly during storms. And the roof has sat here for the last ten years and of course weed seeds have blown in and been pooped in by birds. So Rise Homegrown, the student initiated garden group on campus was invited to come convert the space. How did you get involved in this project? Like were you a Ryerson student or how did you find out about this project? I was actually hired to help with the conversion and the design of the rooftop farm.

So I was brought in a little later once the group had become established. So the group was started in 2011 by students and with the mission of growing food on campus but the project quickly grew as the number of gardens grew in size. So in 2013 the group was invited to come convert this space and a few of us pitched the project to the university and created jobs out of it. So you said you have a quarter acre up on this roof, that's correct? Yeah. What all do you have growing up here?

So we're doing a five-year crop rotation up here, and we've basically mimicked a small-scale farm, a market garden style CSA farm. So even though we're only a quarter acre, which is about, you know, a quarter, at least of the size of a small scale farm, we're still managing it as if we were a farm. So we have our five rotations are brassicas. So we've got like kale and broccoli and Asian greens and radishes and turnips in there. And then we have the solanaceas. So we have tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, and potatoes. And we have the cucurbits, which includes cucumber, winter squash, summer squash, and watermelon.

And we have roots and bulbs. So that includes carrots and beets and alliums like garlic, onions, leeks, along with chard and spinach and a few other things, fennel, stuff like that. And then we have the legumes. So we have beans and peas growing in there. So is this your first full year up on this rooftop? growing in there. So is this your first full year up on this rooftop? Yeah we in 2013 we did a thousand square feet just to determine whether or not growing food was feasible up here and of course everything grew really well so we we went ahead with the full conversion in 2014

and because we did sheet mulching so we cut all the weeds down and put a tarp on to allow the weeds to decompose we did one section at a time so we hadn't actually converted the whole roof until about July so we were a little late with our growing season in 2014 so 2015 was the first year that we started out in the spring as a farm. You're up on the fifth floor, up about 50 feet off the ground or so on this roof. How did you get all the soil up here? Bringing the compost up to the roof was certainly a challenge. We ordered some compost from a company just outside Toronto that collects manure from the Lake Simcoe area. And they came and they dumped it on the street for us.

And then we had a brigade of volunteers that came and helped shovel it into recycling bins on wheels. And then we wheeled it up the freight elevator and dragged it across the roof and spread it all over the farm. So that actually took, we didn't get that done in one day. We did that over the course of a few months. We held these sessions. Did you have a lot of returning members to do that? We actually did. There are, of course, a lot of people members to do that? We actually did There are of course a lot of people that want to get involved up here

So something like that is something people can really engage with Because they can just like totally commit themselves To the digging and the sweating So it sounds awful and it can be if not enough people show up But it's actually a lot of fun, everybody getting the shovels out and getting dirty with the compost. I'm just imagining a big pile of shit just sitting down at the bottom outside of the farm. It's basically a big pile of shit, yeah.

So tell me a little bit about how you got attracted to urban farming. Was this part of your plan or something that you were always attracted to? Or how did this all come about? I became interested in urban agriculture while I was studying in at college and at Langara College in Vancouver. I was taking Latin American history and environmental science. So the concept of urban agriculture was introduced to me through a sort of a political environmental angle, particularly with Latin American history being a lot of the issues, the political issues and social unrest there are wrapped around agrarian issues and industrial food systems. So that was how I became interested in it, and I tree planted and landscaped for eight years. And so I knew that I loved working outside, so it seemed to me to be an interesting combination

to try and integrate my love of working outdoors and being passionate about changing the food system. And I also went to visit Cuba because they have a lot of urban agriculture happening there due to their limited resources of oil and equipment and stuff. And so, yeah, I had known about the urban agricultural scene a little bit in Cuba for a while from like a David Suzuki nature things or something like that many years ago.

What was your experience in going down and kind of seeing that when I think in a lot of ignorant ways, like we if you think about like the Grange or, you know, even Curtis Stone's farm out in Kelowna of being like urban agriculture, urban agriculture. But in fact, like, you know, this is being done for a long time. What was it like to see that? It was very interesting. They do actually have a community garden in Cuba in every neighborhood. And the statistics are that Havana produces all of the produce that Havana consumes.

It was interesting to see, though though that they, you know, that stat, they consume all of the produce that they grow. They don't quite grow enough, like they, when I was there they were considered still slightly under the daily caloric intake that the UN considers not to be starving. that the UN considers not to be starving. I think it's definitely a different vibe than here. It's definitely born out of necessity rather than hipness. So people were really surprised when I was like, oh I want to visit the Organoponicos. They were kind of like, really? Why? And I was like, oh this is really exciting and they're like, okay we'll show you. But it was definitely really productive and efficient the way that they're doing that there. So, OK, so fast forward a couple of years and you find yourself up on the roof of Ryerson planting crops.

How has the season been as your first season? What have been some things that you've been kind of really happy with in terms of success? Maybe like plants that have like grown really well to the climate? Or maybe some things that like didn't do so well that you thought were going to do better? It's interesting. Before I started farming up here, I wasn't sure what the food would taste like because I thought, oh, it's a man-made environment. Like, are the tomatoes really going to taste good or are they going to taste a little manufactured but then I realized that actually because everything tasted amazing and I think

it's because we did the sheet mulching and the roof has been alive for 10 years with weeds growing and dying every year so there is actually life in the soil and and I was surprised that the food has a lot of flavour. So some of the most exciting things up here are the tomatoes because of course they're just really delicious. The other surprising thing is the root crops because with carrots we weren't sure do we have enough soil depth to grow carrots but they're coming out beautiful. So that's another fun one on a tour I usually pull a carrot or two for people because they're just like, what? That grew here?

That's crazy. Or I'll reach in and grab a potato or something because people are like, it just blows their mind and you can reach into the ground and take out a potato. All right, so what didn't work or what was? Well, the truth is, is like, I haven't encountered any vegetables so far that we haven't been able to grow up here. And if something doesn't work, my usual thought process is to try to figure out what I did wrong.

So we experimented in our second year with not adding compost in the test plot just to see could we do compost every other year and we did notice some deficiencies and just general stress in the plants. They got aphids so and I would say I have a tendency to have this urge to plant things really in tight spacing, like just to cram it in because we only have a quarter acre, and I always regret that. So with our cucurbits, they got a lot of powdery mildew because I didn't give them enough space to really vine out and go for it. But again, I don't think it's a limitation of the rooftop farm. I think it's just about properly managing the fertility of the soil and giving everything

the right space and nutrients that it needs to grow. Absolutely, I haven't noticed that there's any vegetable that won't grow up here. We have corn and potatoes, broccoli. And so you mentioned that you did have some pest pressure, aphids, namely, when you didn't have compost in there or the plants were a bit deficient. It seems that they know which plants to attack, right, because they're weaker. What is the pest pressure like in general in being in an urban area?

Is it different, or is it better, or is it worse? We haven't actually had a huge problem with pests so far. Especially in the first year, we almost had no pests other than aphids. I think we might have seen a few aphids. other than aphids. I think we might have seen a few aphids. But then in the second year we got cabbage moth and a little bit of late blight on the tomatoes. Now we have flea beetle in our brassicas. So I think it's just going to be time. I don't know how these things get introduced, maybe in the compost, maybe just when people come to visit or the bugs are just flying around and blowing in here but I think we will get eventually all of the diseases I saw a squash beetle or it was maybe it was a

cucumber beetle for the first time so we didn't have a huge problem with that this year but but I did see one so of course next year we're probably gonna have to deal with that but I actually don't mind So of course next year, we're probably going to have to deal with that. But I actually don't mind because I think it's fun on an educational level to introduce people to like the ecosystem of the garden and how all that looks and how we approach it. Okay. How does this work in terms of funding?

Does it kind of work as like a demo farm that essentially like Ryerson's paying for and is doing tours like how what what does the financial model look like if you're willing to at least talk a little bit about that absolutely so far the university has supported the project 100 they would like to see the farm become um self-sustaining in a sort of startup social innovation style. So we have put some emphasis on sales and so that's one of the reasons that we chose the CSA as our financial model. Partly because we want to participate in this farm culture where we're mimicking a small scale farm with

a market garden in CSA and partly because that makes sense to be able to make sales and have customers that are really excited to be part of the farm and then we also have our working member CSA so people get to spend time up here. And then of course because farming is challenging on a financial level in general, we know that we need to do more than just make vegetable sales. So we are charging a suggested donation for tours and we're going to work toward developing programming that both meets the needs of the community of people who want to be able to use us as a resource, but also allows us to build a revenue base in the long term.

And how do you feel about that? How do you feel about kind of like in some ways kind of being in charge of like making this thing into like, you know, a self-fulfilling or self-funding kind of thing? I mean, the thing is, I'm assuming it'll be interesting to know whether they like, whether they're going to charge you for water and electricity use and that kind of thing. I mean, the thing is, I'm assuming it'll be interesting to know whether they're going to charge you for water and electricity use and that kind of thing. So far, Ryerson seems to be really excited about having a farm on campus. And I think that they'll work, like they're willing to help troubleshoot how to keep this thing going.

Like they're willing to help troubleshoot how to keep this thing going. But I think there's something exciting about treating it as a business because when a lot of people visit, their reaction is, how can we do this on other roofs? Why aren't we doing this on other roofs? So it would be neat to see if we could build a model that could be easily replicable to say, yeah, there is some investment for the startup, but eventually it could become a profitable enterprise. It'd be nice if we could participate in building those systems since we have this great support network on campus

and be able to share that with the public. Yeah, I think there's so much potential for that. So there are a number of like kind of almost urban farm incubators around. I mean in Toronto there's obviously like Fresh City Farms and in other cities there's other things. At least in the experience of Fresh City Farms, that's kind of in an urban setting sort of, but is also on the ground. What are the advantages or disadvantages about being on a roof? Because we already talked about bringing up the compost, but I'm just thinking about harvesting. And I didn't see a kitchen up here. Talk about the processing or the challenges associated with that.

The roof was, because the roof was built as an ornamental green roof, there are a few things lacking in this design as a farm. So one of the major ones is a wash station because when we're harvesting our greens, it's hard to keep them from wilting before we can get them down into the kitchen, which is in another building. So we use just big rubber-made containers, fill them with water, and we cold-shock things up here. But it's not ideal.

I think that because we're growing food, we should have a nice system of how we process that food, stainless steel sinks with good drainage and all that. And of course it can be really hot when people are up here. So having, being able to welcome the community in here, it would be nice to have some infrastructure so that they can feel comfortable while they're here, maybe a bench in the shade, somewhere somewhere to have a drink and to chat and just enjoy the space in a less oppressive way under the heat in the elements and then of course there's a tool shed because we're using the inside of the building to store tools because we're in a university it's a little bit awkward to have shovels and

dirt in the hallway so it'd be great if we had a tool shed that was actually part of the farm so that we all that dirt and clutter could just be be out here where it makes a little more sense and then lastly there's there's a lip on the pathway to get into the garden, so it's a bit of a challenge lifting those bins full of compost or wheelbarrows full of weeds in and out of the garden. So there's little things that would help to change the space. And then we do have kitchen space on campus, but because the kitchens get really busy in the spring and fall when the students are here,

we can't really fan out for our weird projects like drying herbs or making tea, hanging all of our beans to dry and saving seeds and all that kind of stuff. So it would be great to have an area for processing, like dry processing too. And how many people do you have working on the farm with you right now whether they're paid or unpaid or? There's 20 people who come and help each week 16 of them are working member farmers so they work for three hours a week and in exchange they get a basket of food as a CSA share which our full price is 25 but they get it for five dollars a week so they get a reduced rate and they also get to spend time on the farm and enjoy being up here and meet other garden enthusiasts and then the other four are

working in the office doing like project coordination, like administrative kind of stuff. So helping to with all the social media and developing the programs and marketing and all that kind of stuff. I think I have two questions left. So if someone was to give you like five thousand dollars right right now, where would that money go to on the farm? Ooh, ooh. I think the first thing I would want to do is develop. If we had a little chunk of money, I think the first thing I would want to do is upgrade the infrastructure.

Specifically? Build a wash station, a bench in the shade, and I think that's it. build a wash station a bench in the shade and I Think that's it and Then the next place I would put it is in a website because it's the modern world you gotta have a website Okay, and then I guess the the last thing is is like this is the first venue Or this is the first time Ryerson's kind of done this as a university. What's kind of like, so I'm assuming you're maybe on the pulse a little bit in terms of what's happening at other universities or what's happening with like rooftop agriculture in general.

Like what's kind of going on now in Canada and, you know, where do you see it going? Canada and you know where do you see it going the the green roofs that I know of that are producing food other than ours are food chair has a rooftop garden at a high school down the street Eastdale Collegiate theirs is raised beds in containers so it's a little different and then there's a few other smaller spaces like a thousand square feet that are doing food there's the carrot the big carrot has a little green green space with food production and then access Alliance which is a health center has has some rooftop gardening happening along with Telus has a thousand square foot plot. And then on the larger scale, I know that Trent University has quite an extensive green

roof and I think Guelph has some things going on as well. But Toronto is actually a leader in the green roof industry because Toronto was the first city in North America to pass a bylaw that new developments have to have a green roof as part of the infrastructure of the building. And urban agriculture was not included in that concept but it's gaining popularity here in Toronto and Green Roots for Healthy Cities is starting to talk about this this idea of agriculture of building including agriculture as part of our built environment and I think we're gonna see a lot more of it especially because Toronto I think we're going to see a lot more of it, especially because Toronto, I think, built the most green roofs in 2014.

They won some award for building the most green roofs. In North America or Canada? I think in North America. And so that means that we've got a lot of landscape to work with. I don't think those roofs were all designed for urban agriculture. landscape to work with. I don't think those roofs were all designed for urban agriculture, but of course now that buildings have the load-bearing capacity and the irrigation built in, we have the potential to try and play with that. Do you think that the quarter acre is like a sustainable size, or do you think,

from a financial perspective, or do you feel like it could be smaller or bigger? How do you think about that? I think it could be smaller. The quarter acre size is really great. I think it could be a little smaller or it could be a little bigger depending on what you were doing. on what you were doing. I feel like we are really lucky with the size that we got because if it's, I think it's just big enough to manage it as a market garden CSA. I think if it was smaller, it wouldn't make sense to do the amount of crops that we're doing up here. If it was bigger, great. We'd just have more food. Um, but if it was smaller, I think there'd

still be a ton of value in having the space. But I think it would need to be designed just a little differently. Maybe more as a demonstration if you wanted to have so many crops, less as a production space. But a quarter acre in terms of production is great. We have our 20 baskets that we produce each week for our weekly CSA share. We take lots of food to market each week and we produce for the campus kitchens as well. So we're definitely growing a lot of food. How is your crop plan going to change for next year? The crop plan that we are trying to put together for next year? The crop plan that we are trying to put together for next year is a spreadsheet that with just tons of details, lots of dates, lots of names,

lots of varieties, harvest projections, quantities. I would love to be able to show the campus kitchens what varieties we've earmarked for them and what quantities. I'm thinking that we'll send them types of produce like braising greens or roots or salad greens rather than having them expect something specific each week, just we'll give a general theme. You're going to get 10 pounds of mixed greens and 10 pounds of braising

greens each week, whether it's turnip greens or beet greens or kale or chard. You'll get them and you can braise them, bok choy, whatever it is. But we want to make sure that we have, that we're able to say, yes, you're going to get that every week and then be able to know that what exactly what's going into our weekly CSA share and to the farmer's market. So it's exciting getting organized. It's a lot of work. Arlene, thank you so much.

Thank you, Scott. This has been a delight. All right, that's it, folks. A big thank you to Scott Humphreys for the research and work that he did on this episode. So, hey, would you like to participate in this podcast? If so, you should record a voice memo on your phone, and then you should email that voice memo to editor at theruminant.ca. What should it contain? Well, if you made an insight on your farm in the last year

that you think other farmers should know about, why don't you talk about that? Or if you still want to squeeze in something for two different episodes I'm working on that'll be coming soon, one on what you farmers are doing to make a living during the winter if you're not farming, and the other on farming with young children,

you can record something about that and send it to me. If it's good enough in and of itself, I'll just work it into a podcast or I'll get ahold of you after the fact if I think we need to talk a bit more about it. And hey, can I ask one more favor? If you listen to this show on an app for podcasting that allows you to rate the podcast you're listening to,

it would be really helpful for this podcast if you to rate the podcast you're listening to. It would be really helpful for this podcast if you would rate it. I'm thinking specifically of iTunes, where I've been told that positive ratings for a podcast make it rank way higher in search rankings within iTunes. I'd really appreciate it. All right, I'll let Vanessa finish off her song. Thanks a lot. Talk to you next week, folks. Vanessa don't want us a place That is trying to bleed us dry We could be happy with life in the country

With salt on our skin and the dirt on our hands. I've been doing a lot of thinking, some real soul searching, and here's my final resolve. I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong. So we'll run right out into the wilds and graces. We'll keep close quarters with gentle faces. And live next door to the birds and the bees. And live life like it was meant to be. Bye.