The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e.65: Your weeds are trying to tell you something.

Episode Date: December 12, 2015

Jay McCaman has spent many years observing  and cataloguing the weeds on his and his clients' farms, and over this time, by also observing the soil types, conditions, and nutrient levels of the countless fields he's worked with, Jay has come up with, well, sort of a grand unifying theory of weeds, and what they're telling us about our soil. Jay has written a few versions of his book on the topic, but the only one currently availble for sale is called, simply, When Weeds Talk. I spoke with Jay in November of 2015. This is our conversation

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant Podcast and blog wonders what good farming looks like and aims to help farmers and gardeners share insights with each other. At theruminant.ca, you'll find show notes for each episode of the podcast as well as the odd essay, book review, and photo-based blog post. You can email me, editor at theruminant.ca, I'm at ruminantblog on Twitter, or search The Ruminant on Facebook.

Okay, on with the show. This is The Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. Jay McCammon has spent many years observing and cataloging the weeds on his and his clients' farms, and over this time, by also observing the soil types, conditions, and nutrient levels of the countless fields he's worked with, Jay has come up with, well, sort of a grand unifying theory of weeds and what they're telling us about our soil. Jay has written a few versions of his book on the topic,

but the only one currently available for sale is called, simply, When Weeds Talk. You'll find it on the Acres USA website. I spoke with Jay in November of 2015. This is our conversation. Jay McCammon, thanks a lot for joining me on the Room in a Podcast. So, Jay, I was at the Moses Conference when you gave a talk on your book, When Weeds Talk, and I wasn't able to catch it, and I was really disappointed because it seems like a really interesting topic. And before we get into the meat of the book, I'm just wondering when you first started to appreciate that weeds might be playing a more valuable role in terms of what they're telling us than many of us give them credit for? Well, I had started writing things down on three-by-five

cards in the late 70s because I wanted to be able to quote someone else. I knew that would carry more impact than if I just said it myself. And over the years, I've built that card file up to over 17,000 cards. When I was in the basic marine soil class, they were showing us some information on radionics and how certain fertilizers enhance weeds and actually suppress crops even though they'll grow a green crop. They actually suppress the total value of the crop. But other fertilizers build the crop and suppress the weeds. And that got me thinking as I put the first book together in 1985,

and just the title was Weeds! Why? The title was Weeds! Why? And then I knew what the information I had at that point was very short of what I needed, but for about nine years that was what I had available. I was able to put the book, Weeds and Why They Grow, was the second book. I put that together in 1994. And then that was the one available up until two years ago this last March when I finished up When Weeds Talk. finished up when we'd talk.

But it's the farmers who have told me things like a woman who was an organic farmer on muck told us that she got rid of her can of thistle when she put

manganese on the soil. And of course a lot of muck soils are short on manganese. And so. And of course a lot of muck soils are short on manganese. So I've taken that to mean that any weed that spreads by rhizomes, you probably should be looking at your manganese, especially when you want to control the weed. Your knowledge was built up, it sounds like, over years of, is it fair to say, just observation and talking to many, many farmers? Is that how you kind of built this database?

I've talked to farmers. I've gotten soil test data. I have soil test labs that support my work. I have six PhDs that will support my work. Unfortunately, three of those have passed on, but they were teaching the same principles. Right. Okay. So then, from what I understand, the central premise of your book is that if one takes the time to put resources into balancing one's soil properly, then one should experience a lot less weed pressure. Do I have that right?

Yes. Yes. I just finished reading Gary Zimmer's book, Advancing Biological Agriculture. I think that was the accurate name. And he told about, I think that was the accurate name. And he told about, I think it was a convent or a church group that ran a farm.

And they took land out of production and just grew cover crops for one year. And when they went back to row crops, they had very little weed pressure for three years. And I think that ties in with what the Bible talks about when God told the Israelites to let your land lay idle every seventh year. Now, I know we've got to figure cash flow and all these things for payments and to satisfy the banks, but I think that's a concept

that we need to follow. I heard Dr. Richard Harwood speak at Michigan State University. He'd been with Rodale Institute for several years. He made the statement that if you want to build organic manure in your soil, you need live roots in that soil 10 to 11 months a year. Now that's going to vary over the course of your rotation, but there's a lot being done on cover crops. I'm especially happy to see the last few years here in Michigan there are a lot more cover

crops being planted. I'm seeing less soil laying open over the winter and that's a good sign. Nutrients come available in the fall anytime the soil temperature is above 50 degrees, particularly nitrogen. If that nitrogen is not taken up by a plant, there's a good possibility it'll either be held by microbes or it will leach. So the best thing to do is have a plant growing there that can

take that out, take that up, and it will have the nutrients available for your following crop. Right. So with regards to weeds then, I mean, is it the case that most weeds that that i could name are telling are telling me something or you something about about what's happening in my soil or are there just some like really kind of uh primary ones that that that play that role oh yeah there are two things that are very common. The book has a list of over 800 weeds. It's in a chart form, so you can get your basic data quickly. And the two most common problems are low calcium and low organic matter, or low humus. You've got to be looking at your calcium-magnesium balance,

not your soil pH. Because they told me at Michigan State University that magnesium will raise your soil pH 40% faster than calcium. If you don't have the right ratio in your soil, your high-magnesium soils are going to promote a lot of grass weeds. Right. So can we talk then in broader strokes then? Are there other kind of broad categories of weed problems that you could take me through that tend to be a problem based on issues in the soil? you could take me through that tend to be a problem based on issues in the soil?

Your calcium-magnesium ratio has a lot to do with grass weeds. When the soil is higher in magnesium, it will be sticky and tight, and those weeds are there to loosen that soil structure. Foxtail has been a problem in row crops. Of course, they always want to control it with herbicides. But the problem is the soil is tight. Tillage may help, but it really doesn't solve the problem of the energy patterns that are in the soil particles that make them stick together. Magnesium makes particles stick together.

Calcium makes them move apart. So you want a ratio of those to get the proper energy balance. Usually, a calcium and a magnesium ratio of 5 to 1, up to 7 to 1. When you get down to about a 3 to 1, you're going to have a very tight soil. And there's actually a

I call it, you could call it a progression, but I call it a regression because once that soil degenerates from what supports foxtail, the next step is fall panicum. And then we get to the decay situation. Your velvet leaf and gypsum weed are in very anaerobic soils.

That means lacking in oxygen. soils. That means lacking in oxygen. So the velvet leaf requires methane gas to germinate that seed. Jimson weed requires ethane gas, which is a slightly more complex model, molecule. And I've driven by some farms that had a lot of velvet leaf in their soybeans and I could smell the velvet leaf from the road. It was that bad. Just driving

by. In my opinion, a soil that is that bad with that kind of velvet leaf is not going to qualify for organic. There needs to be a change to where that velvet leaf does not want to grow before you can get much of a soil that will produce a quality crop instead of the velvet leaf. Right. Wow, that's really interesting. In the case of, like, it's so interesting to think, I mean, I started out assuming this was mainly about soil nutrients, because as you're pointing out, there's many other soil conditions that can contribute to the balance of weeds growing in the garden.

Right. uh, can, can contribute to the balance of, of, of weeds growing in the garden. Um, and then, or if you take like, uh, or it's, you know, what I'm wondering earlier, you mentioned, um, the relationship potentially between nightshade and, and potash. Um, and when, when potash was, is really high, you're, you're more likely to see it growing. Um, in, in, in a lot of cases, like I just think about, about that, about the amount of seeds that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, nightshade plants will put out and that they're, they're repeatedly can, can stay in the soil for viable for 20 years or more. Um, so I guess, is that a major factor here is that, that, you know, weeds are putting out massive amount of seeds, so it's not like you're going to ever clear it all out of the soil. And so certain conditions, as you say,

just make it right for germination. Would that be what's happening with the farmer's brother who ended up putting more potash on his field and seeing the nightshade bloom again? The weeds are there. I have an uncle who claims for 30 years he did not let a weed go to seed in his garden and he still had weeds. Dr. Albrecht from the University of Missouri talked about a trial that was done

with Timothy grass harvested for hay. Certain plots got six tons of manure every year. The other plots got no manure, no fertility. When the Timothy in the unfertilized plots started to die out, they would plow both sets of plots up and reseed. Broom sedge, I think it was broom sedge, was growing in those plots that did not get the manure. He knew the seeds blew into the plots that received manure.

But the broom sed it never took hold. So this idea of working the ground for weed control, weed germination, can be counterproductive because every time we till that ground, we're destroying organic matter. And you've noticed how much emphasis I put on the organic matter suppressing wheat growth. It's like Gary Zimmer says, know what you're trying to accomplish if you're doing any tillage. And do just what you need to, no more. if you're doing any tillage and do just what you need to, no more. Right. Well, I guess a major lesson of your work is just that there are many unintended consequences to some of the practices we engage in in our soil.

Right. Yeah. Okay. So I just have a couple more questions then, Jay. One would be in very general terms like does your does your definition of what constitutes a well-balanced soil or or a really healthy soil that's going to significantly reduce weed pressure does it differ much than the standard like is it worth asking you to just again in general terms summarize um what a well-balanced soil looks like in terms of nutrient balance, pH, organic matter? Could I ask you to do that or would it be the same

that you'd read in any textbook? Dr. Kerry Reams put a lot of emphasis on growing from calcium and phosphorus. Most of the universities and chemical companies push nitrogen and potash. They know they can make things look good. But looking good and preventing weeds, diseases, and insects can be totally opposite. Dr. Reams used the standard CEC soil test for a while, but he found that it was not telling him the whole story.

It was not telling him the whole story. So he found what we call the Lamont test or sometimes called the Morgan test. I think he had that test modified. Pike Lab Supply in Maine is familiar with that. And, of course, they can set you up for the proper test. they can set you up for the proper test. Dr. Reams wanted, in most soils, he wanted a 2 to 1 phosphate to potash ratio on Lamont test. Conventional agriculture talks about a 1 to 2 phosphate to potash ratio on a CEC test.

Your calcium and magnesium, I've already talked a little bit about that. Dr. Reams was wanting 2,000 pounds of calcium on the Lamont test. Now that's a challenge in sandy soils. You've got to do something to improve what that soil can hold. Otherwise your calcium and other nutrients are going to leach out of sandy soils. I've studied a lot of Dr. Reams. I've grown alfalfa, and I work with a refractometer. I use the refractometer and the sap pH meter in monitoring growing crops during the season.

If you can get alfalfa up to what we call 12 brix, it's B-R-I-X. That's the level that registers on the refractometer. It's been called sugars. It's actually totally dissolved solids that's in the sap of that plant. When you get up to 12, you pretty much forget about insects. And a lot of diseases will not be a problem. Now, one thing that can happen when storm systems come in, the barometer goes down, the plant pulls the energy back to the roots for survival.

If it's just down for a few hours, you're all right. If it's down for a few days, you may get some insect pressure in there that you would not normally have had if the barometer had stayed up and your nutrients were well available. Right. I have grown potatoes in my garden for over 30 years. In the last several years, I think I've seen one potato beetle total. And a mile west of town, about every third year, there's 100 acres of potatoes or more.

And so in that case, what do you attribute to the low pressure from potato beetle? Dr. Phil Callahan studied how insects communicate with the plants. If the plant is imbalanced, it's giving off a certain type of radiation that draws insects. If it's properly balanced, it's giving off a different type of radiation. It draws insects. If it's properly balanced, it's giving off a different type of radiation at a different frequency. And the insects are not drawn to it.

Dr. Callahan photographed the coronary worm flying at 3,000 feet altitude, came over a cornfield and just went into a dive. Wow. Okay, so I guess I was going to ask you where people can start if they want to embrace these ideas and try

and correct their soil. I guess I can start with your book. That should be said. Yeah. But I guess too, you must advocate then for just getting the right kind of soil test done and uh and then getting some advice on on how to correct uh imbalances right yeah um okay well i have one last uh question jay because you know there's a large there's a large movement towards small-scale market gardening happening right now in North America. A lot of people are taking it up. And a very influential book on that crowd is called The Market Gardener by Jean-Martin Fortier. And the reason I bring it up is Jean Martin advocates a technique for reducing tillage and eliminating weed pressure because we're working on such a small scale this is practical

and and I I have taken up the technique and this is what it is it's it takes the concept of stale seed bedding one step further where we actually have we use like eight millimeter uh opaque silage tarps and so so i finish a crop of say mixed greens like you know a bunch of different beds of different kinds of greens that go into my salad mix and then i i mow that crop in with a flail mower and this is all using small machinery like a walk behind tractor uh and then then i pull the tarp over i i water it so there's moisture there's plenty of moisture in the soil and then i put the tarp over and bury the edges okay and so there's a lot to be said for it you pull the tarp up three four weeks later um and everything is broken down

it's probably fair to assume that a lot of weed seeds on the surface have germinated under under those conditions it's warm and moist under the tarp but then they die when they just hit the black tarp right um but i have but i have wondered at unintended consequences and i don't have any answers i've just wondered what are the unintended consequences of bringing the heat in the soil up quite substantially, for example, and theoretically cutting the amount of oxygen moving through that soil down just with this buried tarp? So I'll leave it at that. I'm just wondering if you have any observations about that, what I might need to be concerned about if I'm using this technique.

I know I have omni growers and I have conventional growers that are using the mulch in the row, planting through mulch, or through the plastic, black plastic or other colors. The only thing that can happen that I'm concerned about, and I think you can probably regulate that with your water, is if the soil gets too warm, it gets pretty hard on the microbes. But if you can keep your moisture at a decent level,

I would think you could pretty much control that. Okay, so yeah, I've had similar concerns, as what is it doing to the microbiome, I would think, because it gets really hot in my area, so I'm wondering about the temperature in there. If I wanted to monitor it, is there offhand? Is there a soil temp I could be monitoring for beyond which I should be concerned? Yeah.

I wouldn't want to get over 100 degrees. Okay. I know at 90 degrees, corn slows down. That is air temperature. One thing, when your soil is working right, you should be able to hold ammonia, nitrogen, in your soil naturally. And ammonia is a refrigerant. It's been used as a refrigerant. So as the temperature goes up, the ammonia cools it. When the temperature goes down, it actually warms it. Dr. Reams taught that you can gain a week extra going time

on each end of the season by using ammonium sulfate properly. Jay McCammon, I want to thank you very much for coming on the Ruminant Podcast. This has been really enlightening, and I have a feeling some listeners will be searching out your book when we talk after hearing this. Thanks again. Okay. Thank you. That's it, folks. I hope you liked that. So before I say goodbye, I would like to ask you for some help.

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