The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e66: The trouble with low paid farm apprenticeships

Episode Date: December 19, 2015

Guts is a Canadian feminist magazine that recently published a piece by Natalie Childs called The Fruits of Unpaid Labour. Natalie's article is a thoughtful consideration of the reality of low- and no-pay farm apprenticeships on many small-scale farms in Canada, and the implications for both the farmers and the apprentices involved. Natalie, who completed a farm apprenticeship a few summers back and now works on a farm in Quebec, is my guest for this episode, along with Robin Johnston and Bernard Soubrey, two young farmers based in Atlantic Canada who also went through the apprenticeship system and share Natalie's concerns about underpaid farm labour on some small-scale farms.  This is the last episode of 2015; I'll be back with a new episode in early January.  

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant Podcast and blog wonders what good farming looks like and aims to help farmers and gardeners share insights with each other. At theruminant.ca, you'll find show notes for each episode of the podcast as well as the odd essay, book review, and photo-based blog post. You can email me, editor at theruminant.ca, I'm at ruminantblog on Twitter, or search The Ruminant on Facebook. Okay, on with the show.

Hey folks, just a quick note that it is Friday, December 18th today, and I think I'm going to take a couple weeks off before putting out a new episode, so you can expect something no later than Friday, January 8th. In the meantime, have a Merry Christmas or a Happy New Year or both, and maybe you can catch up on some past episodes. All right, take care. Today's episode features three young farmers who join me to talk about their concerns about farming apprenticeships, and specifically, their belief that too many apprenticeships fail to adequately compensate apprentices in return for the many hours of labor they're asked to work over the course of the apprenticeship. One voice you'll hear is Natalie Childs.

Natalie recently published an essay in Guts magazine about inadequate compensation in many Canadian farming apprenticeships. The other two voices are Bernard Soubry and Robin Johnston, who started a network for farm apprentices in eastern Canada. More on that in a future episode, but who also talked to me about labour issues and apprenticeships. Both of them have completed apprenticeships on separate farms. Natalie's apprenticeship involved one full season on a veggie and fruit farm in western Canada.

I asked her how her apprenticeship was structured. So we had room and board. I asked her how her apprenticeship was structured. So we had room and board. We lived in quite nice, comfortable, sort of like apartment-style housing. And we had all the vegetables we could eat. And we also got a food stipend. And then we were paid a sliding stipend from the beginning of the end and the end to the season of the season. So we got a $300 a month stipend at the beginning of the season, and then an $800 stipend at the end.

And it kind of so it started at the low end, and then each month it exactly. Yeah. Or every two months yeah right okay okay and okay so that's what that was the arrangement that's what you received uh what did you give what were you expected to do at the farm you were on so we were working there were nine apprentices um and then there were the farmers um so the apprentices did all of you know the labor of the farm which was producing quite a large amount of food um so we were doing you know all of the planting and weeding and harvesting um we all had like took turns turns learning about sort of tractor work, but one of the farmers did most of the tractor work. And so we were doing the work that goes into a vegetable farm,

vegetable and fruit farm, actually. And so how many hours a week were you working, Natalie? working, Natalie? I would say probably between 45 and 50. The structure of Natalie's apprenticeship is pretty typical. Most apprentices work full-time on the farm in exchange for room and board and financial compensation ranging from nothing to 15 bucks an hour. A great many of them offer between 50 and 200 dollars a week. There's also, inevitably, an educational aspect to the experience, which varies, but often involves, as is commonly described, learning by doing. I completed two apprenticeships myself and can say from experience that learning by doing can be a really good way to learn, but apprenticeships structured this way can leave an apprentice feeling undercompensated once they're a month in and feel like they're contributing significantly to the success of the farm. That said, none of my

three guests felt entirely negative about their apprenticeships. Far from it. Here's Natalie. At the end, I had some mixed feelings. Overall, it was like a hugely positive experience and like a hugely positive experience and I'm really grateful that I had it. There were points during the season when the arrangement felt not completely fair in the sense that because there were nine apprentices and only two farmers who were, you know, obviously incredibly busy, we didn't always get very much, you know, sort of personalized instruction or time to learn. And so in those moments, it felt as though we were just working and producing profit for the farmers. And if that was the case, it felt as though we should be getting paid as such. Bernard Subri feels similarly. As an apprentice, I have been systematically underpaid at every single job I've had.

And I've consented to that every time, fully knowing what I was in for. And I think a lot of people are in that situation because a lot of farmers are in a catch-22. Their profit margin, if there is a profit, is so small that to afford to pay an employee is extremely difficult. And the farmers that are doing that, the farmers I know who are doing that, are doing it at a personal risk, a personal financial risk. So I think we've created this situation. Farming to me seems to be in this transitional period where for a long time it's been a craft that's been learned because you were either a part of a family, because you were a slave, because you were in some kind of indentured situation, or because you were insane and wanted to live an incredibly difficult life. And now we're in this situation where a lot of people are seeing the value in it and want

to take it up as a craft, and nobody has the money to pay them to do it properly. And that causes situations where either farmers are at huge financial risk or laborers are in situations where they either have to sacrifice their learning because they become, you kind of like you get trained in how to do something and you learn how to do it well and the farmer uses you to do that and that's it. to do something and you learn how to do it well and the farmer uses you to do that and that's it. Or they put themselves in a learning situation and they sacrifice financial stability. And that's a huge problem that a lot of people are thinking about. But I think it's a conversation that we need to open up and have as a real honest conversation between farmers and apprentices. One thing Natalie highlights in her article is the idealism

that many neophytes bring to their first apprenticeship, which can influence their perception of the fairness of what they sign up for. I asked her about it. Yeah, I think that anybody who's involved in this world knows, in the small farm, organic farm world, knows that both on the side of people who do it and the side of the people who are working within it, you know, people have, go into it with really good intentions and do it because they want to, you know, grow food for people, they want to create a new sort of community

and they love being outside and often you know there there is certainly like a romantic idea of what doing that work actually means and I think that you know some people go into it and and find out that the reality doesn't match what they want to do and you know some people go into it and and find out that the reality doesn't match what they want to do and you know they quit an apprenticeship or you know they they do a season and realize it's not for them um but I think there's also a way that those good intentions are sometimes sort of used against the people who hold them. And when you're entering into this world and you're told, like, this is just what farming is like, you know, everybody has to work from 6 a.m. till 10 p.m. Like, that's just what farmers do.

Because you don't know much better you sort of like believe them or you're told like if you have a problem with that you just don't love farming or you just don't get it like you're not going to be a farmer and so I think that if we change the system a little bit and there's more communication that sort of like idealism wouldn't have to be um wasted i think there's i think in general in in in society we we place organic for all farmers really or most farmers but particularly organic farmers or small-scale farmers on a bit of a pedestal um there's a real narrative around the noble farmer.

And so I think it's a potentially dangerous combination when you get people with that attitude, really, really excited, motivated, idealistic, but then also just assuming that any arrangement a farmer is going to propose is going to be fair. It sets up a dangerous situation. I think what it also does and what I hope farmers will consider who do host apprenticeships is that I think it can understandably create almost like a false perception by the farmer that nothing's wrong because people are lining up to do their apprenticeships. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, reflects a sort of bigger labor situation within my generation where people don't want to

be seen to be criticizing farmers or you know organic farmers or their practices because because it is so hard and they're working so hard um I think is a slightly dangerous situation to be in. When I spoke with Robin and Bernard, I could see their own reluctance to be overtly critical of their former hosts, or even the apprenticeship model in general. The way Bernard sees it, there are certain realities to small-scale farming that make it difficult to pay a living wage to the farm's apprentices. Yeah, and I really want to make that clear. Like in every situation, I was underpaid. But in every situation, I still have really good relationships with my farmers. And it was a really wonderful time. And I feel like I learned a lot. Now we're in this situation where a lot of people are seeing the value in it and want to take it up as a craft,

and nobody has the money to pay them to do it properly and that causes situations where either farmers are at huge financial risk or laborers are in situations where they either have to sacrifice their learning because they become you kind of like you you get trained in how to do something and you learn how to do it well and the farmer uses you to do that and that's it um or they put themselves in in a learning situation and they sacrifice financial stability and that's a huge problem that a lot of people are thinking about but i think it's a it's a conversation that we need to open up um and and have as a real as a real honest conversation between farmers and apprentices um do you really think that it's simply that farmers can't afford to to pay their apprentices at least a minimum wage i mean i mean i'm revealing myself already and i've talked about this ad nauseum almost on this podcast but I'm not entirely sure that's the case I in a lot of cases I think it's that we keep telling ourselves we farmers that we

can't afford to pay an apprentice for their work from what I've seen so I'll speak to my own personal experience I've been in situations where farmers have basically shown me their books and said, okay, I really want to teach you and you really want to learn. And this is how much money I'm going to make this year. And this is how much I can technically afford to pay you. I think that I agree with you in that it's a bit ridiculous that so much of farming and the movement towards apprenticeships and learning that kind of craft has come... I can't remember who it was. I think it might have been Chris Blanchard who made the argument that it comes from the left, who are the people who, ironically, were fighting for workers' rights and now have made it totally okay to not have workers' rights in terms of pay, in terms of compensation.

see it and and i deeply deeply appreciate it who see it kind of as their vocation to to teach other farmers and who understand that this is something we really need like i robin correct me if i'm wrong but like the statistic is is it like 80 percent of farmers are going to be retiring in the next 10 years yeah i don't know off the top of my head but it's it's high like it's extremely high and there are people who really see this and who are at the point where they're saying it makes more sense for me to teach people how to farm on my operation than it does for me to make a living wage. And yet at the same time it's this situation where we're both placing ourselves in danger. So I think that if you, you can be really hard-line and you, like, you can be really hardline and you can say, like, you can take your side, Jordan, and say, if I can't afford to pay my interns, I don't, I'm not going to have interns.

Like, I'm going to make it work some other way. I'm going to reduce my production or I'm going to work twice as hard or whatever. apprenticeship, and I take apprenticeship here to be a really kind of the ancestral definition of it, where you're really trying to actually have a craft. It's not just a job for a couple of months. You're really trying to acquire that craft. I think if we're going to be setting ourselves up as a community to foster that sense of apprenticeship, there are people who are willing to put themselves at financial risk and who are also at the point where they can't actually pay people a wage without seriously undermining their operation, which may or may not already be in debt. Robin Johnston.

That's what's sort of hard to balance as well, because I objectively I think that we should be apprentices should be fairly compensated for their labor. But I also had a very positive experience apprenticing. And even if I was underpaid, I still it was there. It was a very valuable experience. So it's hard to kind of balance that I find I really think that the the farmer needs to ideally be a little more responsible and thoughtful about it I just think that because of some of the narratives that we have about farmers and farming, we cut farmers some slack, as you alluded to a little while ago. And we farmers cut ourselves some slack about this, the idea that we should be

paying for our labor. And you've pointed out examples where that may very well be true, but I do think that farmers have to strive to be as responsible as they can and as intellectually honest as they can and really challenge themselves, um, to think about, can they truly not afford it? Or, or is it just that it's more like, you know, they won't afford it. Um, and, and, and, and a lot of farmers, if they, if they really are thoughtful about it, they're still going to come to the conclusion, well, I can't, I'm not going to pay a minimum wage, but you know, I can, I'm still going to host apprentices and perhaps put a lot of effort into their, their education. But, um, we just need more reflection, I think ultimately, um, to challenge kind of received wisdom on topics like the economics of the farm

and whether the labor is worth a minimum wage or higher. Right. Clearly, all three of my guests are ambivalent about the apprenticeship model and even ambivalent about the labor issues we've discussed. All three seem to recognize that we don't necessarily want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I asked Natalie what advice she would give to aspiring apprentices. I think that listening to previous podcasts, I think a lot of people have talked about this a lot,

but just communicating as much as possible what the expectations are on both sides. And I think figuring out a way to be honest about what a season will actually look like, that's sort of on the farmer's behalf, like what your day will actually look like, I think would help apprentices get a real sense of what they're going to be doing and would help avoid some of the conflicts that tend to come up and on behalf of the interns I think yeah like doing your research as much as possible and just trying to ask questions about what you will be learning and those questions about like what will your day look like um what will you

know your living quarters be like and what can you expect to come away with at the end of the season uh could all be good good questions to ask and ideally talking to someone who's done this apprenticeship before um because that's one of the issues that i find that there's no real way to sort of find out the real story um and if there was there were better ways to sort of communicate about what this experience will be like between interns um in different seasons i would love to see that i one thing i've told uh some new apprentices at different points is that is is not to think about their the how much they're going to enjoy working for 40 or 50 hours a week for room and board and 50 bucks or 75 bucks uh

in the first week of their apprenticeship but how they're going to feel about it in mid-july when they're when they're basically it's just come down to harvesting weeding irrigating planting repeat yeah um because the attitude i think tends to tends to change really quickly yeah um and i just like i i don't know how how whether you've become strident about the need to compensate with the minimum wage. I pay minimum wage to my apprentices and I encourage my colleagues to do so. But I also think there are plenty of apprenticeships that don't pay a minimum wage where the farmers are being a lot more thoughtful about offering other benefits and aspects of the apprenticeship that ultimately make it a very good apprenticeship. Yeah, I don't personally feel like I'm equipped to sort of tell all farmers what they should be doing. But I think doing more research on this made me feel like anyone who's offering an apprenticeship should try and

take a real look at what they're actually offering and whether it is that sort of learning experience like a true learning experience that you were describing or if they're sort of grabbing onto this situation where because they're able to have this cheaper labor they take it and like sort of grabbing onto this situation where because they're able to have this cheaper labor, they take it and like sort of ask themselves, you know, if no apprentices, if no one wanted to apprentice on a farm, would you be hiring workers instead? And sort of then ask yourself, like, how, what percentage of this is a labor solution? And what part of this is a labour solution and what part of this is about wanting to teach. In Robin's apprenticeship, the host farmer designated a bit of time each week for teaching,

and that's something she'd like to see more hosts doing. At Waldergrave, for most of the season, we had one afternoon a week where we sat down and had a two-hour formal lesson on soil biology, crop profitability, pests and diseases, those sorts of topics. And I found that really valuable to have that space to sit down and really kind of get in a little more in-depth than you can when you're in the field. So I thought that if farmers can make time to have that sort of aspect to their apprenticeship, I found that to be quite valuable. Another aspect of the apprenticeship model that Robin would like to see improved is what happens when the apprenticeship is over with? I think for me,

what's challenging is trying to figure out what is the next step. So you've apprenticed and you know that eventually you want to have your own farm, but you don't feel ready to buy the farm yet. So it's hard for me to figure out personally where to go in between, whether you want to work for someone else, do you rent land from someone, do you try and find a more formal situation where someone can mentor you. And I think that this is more of a challenge, I guess, for the broader farming community, but supporting people in this, there isn't like, this is step one, this is step two, this is step three, and you're kind of figuring it out for

yourself. So I think that if we could kind of figure out more guidance for that in-between period, I think that that would be really valuable. In her article, Natalie proposes that a more formalized apprenticeship system could provide a solution to the labour issues we've been discussing. I ask her to elaborate. I think there are some programs that could sort of be expanded, like the Grow a Farmer program here in Nova Scotia that's trying to set out a bit of a curriculum for what new farmers need. Like, I don't think it has to be a federal government program that tells all farmers what to do, but something where farmers could be talking to each other

and helping each other sort of learn so that everything wasn't happening in isolation and often just through the you know mind and experience of one or two farmers like on you know where you're learning such idiosyncratic things and I think there's room to get a sort of broader scope but but Natalie but Natalie, doesn't that, I mean, one problem I see with that is I think if I understand you, you're kind of suggesting, well, perhaps farmers just need a little bit of help, uh, some, some, some, some, some coordination among them and some tools to help them become better educators. But isn't, isn't part of your

argument that there's just a lot of farmers who are using this system as a cheap form of labor who aren't really, it's not like it's a bunch of farmers who, who all of whom are really wanting to, to, to nail the education piece. It's more like there's too many farmers who just see this as a great way to have affordable labor. And, and therefore, are they going to be very, is it really going to help just to provide them with more tools and coordination and that sort of thing? I personally wouldn't want to presume like really bad intentions on the part of anyone. Like I think that we're within a system where of course you want to, you know, it's like a really challenging business. And of course you want to get know it's like a really challenging business and of course you want to get the cheapest labor you can and so I don't think that's because they're bad

there's bad people I think it's like the system that we're within and so I think if there was more accountability that would help people I think that this system exists because there's not very much accountability at all in agricultural labor. Um, and so I think more accountability part of that, I think would have to be governmental would help people think a bit more about their business models and a bit more about their educational models. Hmm. I, I, I struggle, like, I think as, as a set of ideas, I think they're great. Um, I just in, in the, in the, uh, but I think in, I don't know, I, I just think they're a little bit perhaps unrealistic because I've seen different, different takes on like different versions of a, of a similar model proposed, I guess. One is like, um, make it a formal

accreditation system. Apprentice goes like to an actual post-secondary institution and then does stuff on farms. But in that case, they're spending thousands of dollars anyway on, you know, so, so it's not necessarily solving the affordability of the apprenticeship. If, if, if what they want to do is become farmers, there are other benefits to getting that post-secondary education, but if they want to become farmers, it's not quite as useful to them compared to, say, the same accreditation that would come with becoming an electrician or a plumber or a nurse or a lawyer or something like that. And then just, yeah, I guess going back to just the idea of simply holding farmers more accountable by some sort of, I mean, to me, it would inevitably have to as some sort of baseline that's already institutionalized that does hold or can hold farmers accountable. And is it worth trying to create a whole new system that may still permit lower than minimum wage, but would try and hold them accountable on the educational aspect? Yeah, I mean, like, personally, I would love to see an absolute minimum wage, but I don't

feel that I know enough to be able to, you know, recommend that extreme challenge. And so I think on behalf of farmers, I see why there are arguments against creating that. But on behalf of workers, I don't really see how you can make an argument against minimum wage, even if you're learning. Well, Natalie, it's a great article. And I hope people head over to gutsmagazine.ca to find it or they'll ultimately be able to find it as a link, a direct link from the show notes that go up with this interview. But I want to thank you very much for coming on the podcast to talk about it today.

Great. Thanks so much. Well, Bernard, Subri, and Robin Johnson, I really want to thank you for for getting on the skype to talk with me it was really interesting to hear your insights and i just want to congratulate you on the apprenticeship network you you set up that's gonna that's gonna be a great resource to to a lot of people here's helping thanks so much jordan so there you go folks that's the last remnantant Podcast of 2015. I'm going to take a break for a couple weeks, but I'll be back in the early new year.

I've already got some great content lined up for you. You'll hear from Craig LaHoullier, author of Epic Tomatoes. David Montgomery, author of Dirt, the Erosion of Civilizations, just published a new book with his wife, Anne Bickley, called The Hidden Half of Nature, all about the emerging science of the role of microbes in the soil and in our bodies. I've got greenhouse specialist Adam Montry lined up and a whole bunch more. Thanks so much for your support of the show this far.

Merry Christmas and talk to you soon. Peaches will owe nothing to this world of thieves and live life like it was meant to be Because why would we live in a place that don't want us? A place that is trying to bleed us dry. We could be happy with life in the country, with salt on our skin and the dirt on our hands. hands I've been doing a lot of thinking some real soul searching and here's my final resolve I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong so we'll run right out into the wilds and braces We'll keep close quarters with gentle faces And live next door to the birds and the bees

And live life like it was meant to be Bye.