The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e81: Connected Apprentices=Happy Apprentices

Episode Date: April 22, 2016

This ep: the Maritime Farm Apprentice and Worker Network is a great example of how to enrich the experiences of farm apprenties, incubator farmers, farm workers, etc. A conversation with Robin Johnston and Bernard Soubry.

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant Podcast is for people who are passionate about farming, gardening, food politics, food security, and the intersections among these topics. At theruminant.ca, you'll find a summary of each episode, as well as book reviews, essays, and photo-based blog posts to stimulate your thinking about food production. I tweet, at ruminantbant blog and email from editor at the ruminant.ca. All right, time for the show. Hey folks, it's Jordan. All right, so way back in December, I had a conversation with Robin Johnston and Bernard Soubry, two young farmers who are and or were based in the Maritimes. You may remember them from an earlier episode. I had a conversation with them about labor concerns in the apprenticeship

context. And now I've got them back on the show to talk about a network that they have formed out in the Maritimes for farm apprentices out there. In their own apprenticeships, Bernard and Robin realized that these apprenticeships can be kind of isolating. And even if they're not, you know, you soon realize as an apprentice that there are many ways that a given farming task can be done and that it can be really helpful to be able to talk to other apprenticeships and actually visit other farms to see, you know, how things are done differently. In addition, I think it's just really nice for apprentices. And this

goes, sir, by the way, this really all applies to like incubator farmers and just new farmers in general. I just think it's really great for new or aspiring farmers to be able to just talk shop, compare notes, compare experiences, that sort of thing. And Bernard and Robin are going to talk about that. So I think this is a great episode for those who are new or aspiring farmers or for farmers who, one way or the other, end up kind of mentoring new farmers. Robin and Bernard explain how easy it is to set one of these networks up. And I think a lot of good can come from these relationships. So that's all I'm going to say. Here's my conversation with Bernard Subri and Robin Johnston.

So that's all I'm going to say. Here's my conversation with Bernard Subri and Robin Johnston. So that's all I'm going to say. Here's my conversation with Bernard Subri and Robin Johnston of the Maritime Farm Apprentice and Worker Network. Bernard Subri and Robin Johnston, thanks a lot for coming on the Room and a Podcast. Thanks so much, Jordan. It's good to be here. Yeah, thanks. So you two at some point connected when you were both working as farm apprentices in Atlantic Canada. We were working together, or we went for a walk with Colleen Freak, who's another apprentice who happened to also work at Four Seasons Farm in Maitland. And we went for a walk in Halifax. And I think that's where, is that the first time that I talked to you about how we wanted to have or how I wanted to have an apprentices

network? Yeah, I think that's really more where we met. But I do, I distinctly remember you from the ACORN conference. Right. So we met, we met there. And then I was working, I was doing a bit of a pilot, experimental winter apprenticeship at a farm called Abundant Acres in Centre Burlington in Nova Scotia. And I was the only worker there and I was feeling awfully, awfully lonely. And I remember sending out an email to all of my farming contacts saying, okay, we're going to build a farming apprentice and workers network. We're going to have a bunch of people come together. Does anybody want to help me coordinate?

And you were the one who replied. And I think that's where we really started off. Like there was that sense of, we are both in the same boat. We're both horribly, terribly in love with farming. And we both want to do this. And we don't have anybody to talk to about it. So let's formalize it into a network. So was that your, did you have a similar experience, Robin, in either past apprenticeships or what you were doing at the time? Did you feel a little bit too isolated? or what you were doing at the time? Did you feel a little bit too isolated? Well, I, this, when we started the network, I was living in Halifax, or when we started talking about it, I was living in Halifax, but I had planned to do another farm apprenticeship this past summer, which I did do. And I don't think I really felt as isolated as Bernard did but I really I did want to connect

with more apprentices and just be able to visit other farms because that's so important when you're learning how to farm is seeing how other people are farming and being able to geek out about farming with people who are as passionate as you are. Okay. Sorry, go ahead, Bernard. Well, I think that it's one of those distinctions that I think is really important because in every apprenticeship that I've done, I've always had a really great group of people on the farm. So that moment in last winter when I was the only worker at Abundant Acres was kind of a weird moment. I think the big thing that happens, at least in Nova Scotia, is that a lot of farms have multiple apprentices.

And so there's this great social network and you feel like you're part of a community. But there's very little between farm interaction. The apprentices from one farm never really went to another. And that's the kind of isolation I farm never really went to another and that's the kind of isolation i think i really wanted to break does that make sense oh totally i can relate to both i mean i i did two apprenticeships myself uh and in the first one my my my girlfriend at the time who's now my wife uh eventually joined me but i was on my own for the first couple months and um so just just in the sense of i, there are apprentices who are the only kind of apprentice and farm hand on the farm.

And of course, you know, you can get along with your farm host, but that's not quite the same thing. And, um, it's nice just to meet and talk with others who can like directly relate to what you're doing. Uh, and then, and then I totally relate to what Robin mentioned about also, regardless whether, whether you have people, you know, other apprentices on the farm with you. It's just it's so awesome to get out onto other farms and see what they're doing because every farm, even producing the same stuff, approaches the production differently. And so it's so valuable. And where I apprenticed on Vancouver Island for my second apprenticeship had a really pretty well organized apprenticeship network that allowed apprentices to get together once a month on a different farm each time. And in that network, each time they got together, they would do a work party for the host, and then the host farmer would give them a workshop on a different topic each time.

So how did you build your network? What was the structure that you ended up figuring out? I think we just ended up imitating that structure. Because I remember I had contacted you as a coordinator of soil, Jordan, and I was also looking at Craft, which is a network that runs in Ontario. on a Sunday, we would go to a farm and it would probably be the one of the farms that was the host farm for one of the apprentices in the network. And we would do some work for them and really try to do something significant, like rather than just weeding. We were people who ideally had a certain amount of experience and who could really put in hard labor and intentional labor. And then we would get a tour of the farm and we would get a chance to socialize and we would get a chance to kind of do something new. And then there would be, we tried to set up a bit of an online component so that people had access to each other's contact information and had a sense as well of people's different levels of experience. So we set up a Google spreadsheet, a collaborative spreadsheet,

where people could put in, like they were interested in... What did we say that we had put in, Robin? Who you were, where you were farming, how many years of experience you had, and whether you were open to being contacted slash visited. Right. And can I ask, I'll ask you, Robin, when you first set up the network, did you first reach out to the farmers, or did you somehow reach out directly to the apprentices slash farmhands?

reach out directly to the apprentices slash farmhands? I think Bernard started the contact list just by reaching out to anyone that he could. And then we also created a Facebook group, which I sort of contacted people who I knew already that were were farm apprentices or interested in farming through that and that was fairly successful as well there's still people who are posting links on the group fairly regularly it was it was actually somewhat challenging to get in contact with the apprentices through farmers just because farmers are so busy and communicating isn't necessarily their top priority right and did you find did either of you find in setting it up much were most farmers really interested in in um connecting their apprentices into this do you have any sense of that like you know because it it like it's easy to see why this would be really appealing for any farmhand or apprentice who's interested in farming and in learning about farming.

But I mean, I could see some host farmers just seeing it as like one extra thing taking them away from their work. What was your experience? I think there was a very conscious intention from the beginning that it wasn't going to be this impermeable bubble of apprentices. We really wanted to involve farmers first and foremost. We actually, I think we set up a secondary spreadsheet, which included farmers as well in terms of people who were willing to be resources and were willing to be visited or called or emailed or anything like that. And I think we got, like, the people that we did contact were very, very enthusiastic. The folks over at Four Seasons Farm who had been our previous mentors were really happy that that was going on.

We got some great responses from folks in PEI in Nova Scotia. We got the folks at ACORN, the Atlantic Canada Organic Regional Network, were hugely supportive in their work. I think that so by having that kind of intention, by wanting to include farmers and to bring them along to the work parties and really just like the sense was to get everybody talking. And the apprentices were at the forefront of that thought, but we wanted to kind of expand the community rather than build one side by side. And there isn't, right before this network, there wasn't any platform for apprentices to connect with each other in Atlantic Canada. I mean, Acorn does a great job of organizing farmer focused events that anyone's welcome to attend, but there wasn't really a way for apprentices themselves to connect with each other. And what I, what I like about the model you tried out, which is like, as Bernard alluded to is, is, is pretty much the same or similar to what, what farms hosting apprentices in, on Southern Vancouver

Island we're doing is, is it's simplicity. And then it really just takes getting apprentices connected with each other via email or on a spreadsheet, and then they can just coordinate it themselves. It really doesn't take a lot of effort and it doesn't need to necessarily be formalized by an institution. You know, you don't have to get Acorn involved, which has its benefits, but also its drawbacks in terms of just like doing things quickly. And, and it just, it doesn't need any funding or anything like that. It's just, it's just as simple as a couple of people like you two, you know, grabbing the bull by the horns, I guess, and getting people connected. I think that's, it's funny that you're saying that because we were just talking about this a couple of minutes ago before we started the call.

There was very much this sense of like, well, if we have no budget, then we can basically do whatever we want. And the most basic need was to get people talking to one another a lot of a lot of my farming mentors david greenberg at about an at abundant acres and and owen and cena at four seasons they they often talk about how acorn has always been really good at bringing people together um but there's nothing that really replaces what often happens where like farmers just drop in on one another and sit around the table and eat some food. And that's where the real business takes place. Like that's where people are really talking. And I found that, I don't know how you feel about that, Robin, but I feel like that was what happened. Like we had several moments of a completely budgetless, disorganized organization sitting down with cups of tea with a bunch of

people from across the province. And that was the most wonderful discussion spot. Yeah, it was very similar out on Vancouver Island when I used to, as an apprentice, I used to coordinate these group visits. And it was just a matter of sorting out which topics people were interested in, which farms were willing to host, and then just an email group that went around and then just scheduling once a month visits. Robin, I want to ask you to think back to a particular gathering that just worked really well on most levels and ask you to just tell me about it. How many people attended, what farm it was on, and what if there was a formal topic what you covered that day i mean they all they were all

awesome but i would say the best one was when we went to visit um abundant acres where bernard Bernard was working. Our project was to assemble a hoop house, which when it was proposed, I thought that maybe this was a little ambitious, but we put the whole hoop house together in, I don't know, it was like two hours, I think. And David Greenberg, one of the farmers, is kind of known as the hoop house expert. So everybody learned all his little tips and tricks, which me and the other, well, she's a worker, but one of the people who I worked with at Waldergrave Farm this past season, we both learned a lot because we um set up uh a hoop house at our farm

previously and it was very difficult anyways the strings got tangled and things were loose and the plastic flew away and all these things that we could have avoided if we'd known all these little tricks beforehand um and how many people were Oh, let me think. I would say there was 10, 10 apprentices total who attended. And that's kind of like the perfect number, because if you have too many more people, then it's hard to have, it's hard to really have a chance to talk to everybody. But I would say that that was most successful. Yeah. And that sounds, that sounds awesome. And it, it reminds me of some of the, the workshops that, that, uh, I ended up attending with our group, you know, there was one on, you know, you, you tend to, as you just

pointed out, you, you figure out what the farmer's particularly good at, and then you ask them to, you know, organize a workshop or activity around that. Uh, so we did one, one farmer was just, she focused on canning and preserving and sold that stuff. So she gave an excellent workshop on, on canning, uh, that included considerations when you want to sell your stuff and what you have to think about. Uh, another did one on record keeping, um, another on cheese making. I mean, there's just like the possibilities are endless because every farm is doing something kind of specialized. It seems like. And the food was always amazing. Bernard said said we had cups of tea but we always everyone has amazing potluck yeah that's i should point out every apprentice in atlantic canada is an excellent

cook we're really lucky this year actually because we had a professional chef as one of the apprentices so i feel like we we definitely lucked out on that one. Oh, very cool. So if there will be listeners, you know, the listenership for the podcast includes farmers and older farmers, younger farmers, apprentices, but like people who own their own business. Let's try and just broaden it out to talk about how this concept can be applied in different contexts. contexts because you know there's there's parts of north america and elsewhere that that aren't like like regions that aren't going to have a lot of actual apprentices but as as one of you pointed out

before there's no reason this can't be applied to just farmers getting together uh or farmhands or apprentices or mixes of all of them so um would um, would you agree with that? Like this is, this is kind of applicable to, to anyone who just wants to kind of get exposure to how other people are doing what they're doing on farms. Yeah, definitely. And we, I mean, farmers were welcome to attend any of our gatherings as well. It wasn't, it was definitely not an exclusive thing. Um, I think more, they just wanted to have their Sunday off and not work. But yeah, I definitely think that it could be applied to any group. I mean, whether you're discussing politics or canning or farming techniques or all three.

all three. I think it's important. But I should, I should, I think I should say, I think it's also important to be able to have space for apprentices to talk to one another as apprentices, not as broader members of the farming community. Those kinds of meetings, having people, you know, no matter what they are, as long as they're in the agricultural community and interested in that, I think those are incredibly important and we need to have them more because we don't have enough of them. I don't think people are talking to each other enough or realizing how much of a resource is there.

But I think that when you have as an objective, like as a, as an objective in your life to be able to become a farmer and to gain a certain craft, speaking to people who are of that same objective is a really, really valuable thing. So to always keep in mind that there's that. It's not a barrier. It's not something that separates us, but it's something that hasn't yet happened in, in people who are apprentices, like people who haven't owned their own business. I think, I think you're right, Bernard. I think, uh, I think it's crucial where it's possible to get apprentices together just to, to talk with each other. Um, uh,

especially because most people who are going to apprentice are arriving at their farm with very little knowledge. And so it's easy to almost become myopic in what you learn because you're only learning one farm's approaches to the production. And as we all know, there are many approaches to the same kind of production. And so getting together totally allows a group to compare notes and even compare notes. And I think this is really important on the conditions of their apprenticeship, on what they've arranged with their host farmer, because most of these apprenticeships are arranged between the specific apprentice and the specific farmer. And I think, tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I just think when someone shows up who has never been on a farm with very little experience, it's possible for them to get into a situation where they're actually,

the conditions of their apprenticeship are a little perhaps unfair and it can just be really helpful to get people together to be able to compare notes and just, and you know, yeah, just be able, just be able to get a sense of whether, how their apprenticeship differs. And if nothing else, just like, like everyone everyone loves to do just relate to each other and talk about the hardest parts and and and the best parts and that sort of thing and give each other tools to be able to go through apprenticeships there i think there were a lot of moments when the biggest amount of learning that i did or the most significant revelations that I had were with other apprentices. Robin and I set up this kind of, we had a bit of a weekly phone call happening as we were running

the network and as we were apprenticing. And those were the moments when I could actually debrief. And I feel like if I'm going to publicly say this, I should deeply, deeply thank you for those, Robin. Because I had an amazing and wonderful going to publicly say this, I should deeply, deeply thank you for those, Robin. Because I had an amazing and wonderful time at my apprenticeship this summer, but it was really nice to debrief with somebody who wasn't there. And I think that in terms of the question of labor conditions, it's an essential thing because there's no formal apprenticeship structure in Canada. There's no, there's no step-by-step setup for you to become a farmer. So the only people you have as reference points are other farmers. And that's always a difficult relationship because no matter how kind and wonderful people are there, I think there is a power relationship between employer and employee. Um, and it,

and it has to be navigated. So the only, the only people I think you can really talk about with concerning those kinds of conditions are people who are in the same situation as you. So folks, what I was getting at before, um, is, is while I completely agree that, that it is where possible, it's a really good idea just to get groups of apprentices together, it may not always be possible. Like I'm just thinking of the listeners out there that don't have many apprentices within a certain, you know, reasonable driving distance from each other.

Or just the farmers out there who just also want to get in on these, uh, these farm tours and that sort of thing. And I just wanted to share that, um, like on my farm, I mean, I was the one who, when I was apprentice was coordinating these things as an, as enthusiastically, I think, cause it sounds like you two were, but, um, I, I mean, the reality is, uh, now that I'm in the business, like it's my farm, I just, it's so much harder to find or make the time and energy to do it myself. And we, we don't have a great network of apprentices around. So I just want to, I just want to share that what, what, what I've done the last couple of years

with my apprentices here is just to offer, just to offer to line up some farm tours for them, where, where at the very least, even if they can't go and, and meet with many other of their colleagues, like people apprenticing or as farm hands, um, we'll just, we'll just make a day in their work schedule to send them off on their own, uh, and, and to, to go and, to go and do a few farm tours and, and, um, just, tours and just to be able to see how other people approach their production. I think that's a really cool thing. And I think, I don't know,

it's like, tell me if you don't agree with me, Robin, on this one, because we haven't, I don't think we've ever had that kind of discussion, but I think you have a responsibility as a farmer who has employees, like vocational employees to do that. And there's a big difference. And I think a lot of, I don't know how you would agree with it, Jordan, but I think there's a big difference between people who are working on farms as workers and people who are working on farm as apprentices trying to become farmers. But I think for the latter group, you definitely have a responsibility to open that up.

And I think it's really cool that you've got that going on on your farm. But I also think that as a farmer, you have maybe a responsibility to yourself to take time to go see what other people are doing and to chat with people about problems and to kind of get inspired by cool stuff that they're trying out and feel for a little bit as though you're part of that greater community. Because you're right, you used the word myopic earlier. And I think it's a pretty accurate description of what happens if you're toiling day in, day out on your own operation. What do you think, Rob?

In both of my internships at Four Seasons Farm and at Walder Gray Farm, I had several opportunities to go on field trips to other farms and it definitely it's so it's so important for apprentices and just to get be able to get out and see other farms and it's I think it helps keep your your enthusiasm up just being able to talk about farming and have those moments of not more formal learning but to yeah be able to connect with other farms um i also wanted to say in terms of people who might be apprenticing and there might not be that many farms around them um i would say we're pretty lucky in nova scotia because everything's fairly close by.

But we were still, well, I think people were driving anywhere from one to three hours to attend. Yeah, that was a challenge. It's a significant commitment. But I always felt that I left the work parties more energized than tired. And for me, it was worth the drive. And maybe that's where the the online element I think that that was one of the challenges for this summer where it it's something that we want to expand on um to be able to have even if you're not in the same geographic area to be able to know that there

are people out there and have like I don't know I I could imagine that we could have Skype sessions or online discussions or things along those lines just to be able to talk to one another. I think that's that would be a cool next step for both farmers and apprentices. And any any ideas on how to how to do that and whether it would be as easy to do either of you like to bring conversations online? either of you like to to to bring conversations online i mean i think that that starts to get a little bit harder to to i guess maintain wouldn't you say well i mean i i imagine you could just schedule a skype call at a specific time make sure everybody's whose plans to attend is added to it and maybe choose a specific discussion topic or maybe maybe not it really would depend but i i don't know if that would be too much more i was thinking more in terms of um like our i find there's a big difference in

motivation i guess between these these group visits which I think most people get really into and and to to starting and then maintaining an active online community kind of gets into new territory where I just have a sense it's a little harder to to again maintain participation and motivation and stuff like that I think it's a process of self-selection though and like I don't i don't think that it's one of those uh one of those conversations that needs to be actively maintained in terms of the online thing like i would much rather just know that people are there and available and have their contact information because that was the biggest challenge when we set up the network like we just didn't know who to talk to and we knew that there were people out there but we didn't know how to

contact them and we half the time we didn't even have the farm's phone numbers um and so i think i think that the first the first step is and maybe this is something that larger networks like soil or craft or acorn can do is to get a sense of all of the farms that are out there, specifically with apprentices, and be able to just have those as contact points. Not necessarily set up like a series of calls or anything too formal. But to make it there and to make it available and have it basically as either a phone book

or a helpline, depending on what you need, where you know that the people on that list will be happy to hear from you and talk about it and chat a bit. Would you say that makes, like, is that a viable avenue, do you think? I actually, I do. You know, like you say, at the very least, I think, uh, you know, it's true, especially for apprentices who are on a farm kind of on their own, uh, simply to be given a list of, of other farms that are hosting at least allows them to reach out and hopefully encourages others to reach out to them. So no, that, that is certainly, certainly that, that, um, it, it doesn't take a lot of effort to do it and, and it it, and it kind of can get the ball rolling.

All right. So this is Jordan cutting in in post-production. That was a conversation I had with Robin and Bernard way back in, I guess, December. And because it's been so long, I thought it might be a good idea to get a quick update. So I called Robin, and I couldn't get a hold of her. And then I tried Bernard, and I found him in a pub in Ireland. So, yeah, quick update. The network is going strong.

We're setting ourselves up for a second season. We've recruited another person to come and help us out just because I'm presently geographically removed, although I'll be back in the Maritimes in June. And we're looking to expand. So we've been contacting farmers across Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and we're going to have a series of workshops throughout the summer. And we're making specific incursions into stuff that we haven't seen before.

So whereas last year we were on a lot of small mixed vegetable operations, now we're on the lookout for grain operations. We want to check out one of the mushroom farms that has opened up in New Brunswick. The folks at the Bay of Fungi are really lovely people and good friends of mine, so we're going to go check their operation out. And we're looking to find even more apprentices that are coming through. Right on. So, okay, just to keep this short then,

what's the best place for people to go who want to engage with the network? What's the best place? Yeah, like online. Where do they go online to start? Online, they look up the Young Agrarians website where we've just recently posted another call for apprentices. Okay. So they can just look us up under FON.

Farm Apprentices and Workers Network at youngagrarians.org. And is it just for Maritimers for now? Well, right now we're geographically located in the Maritimes, so we're focusing on that. But if other folks want to get in touch, then we're happy to talk and we want to, at the very least, share ideas, if not collaborate. Awesome. Okay, well, Bernard Soubry, thanks for the update.

Hey, absolutely no problem. And Bernard and Robin of the Farm Apprentice and Workers Network out in the Maritimes, thanks a lot for that conversation. So if you want to find out more, check out youngagarians.org and look for FON. And that's about it for this week, folks. Talk to you next week. Live life like it was meant to be Ah, don't fret, honey, I've got a plan To make our final escape

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