The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e83 Pasturing your Pork and Selling Flowers to Florists

Episode Date: May 14, 2016

This ep, Lydia Carpenter of Luna Field Farm on Landscape Scale Hog Management. Then: flower grower Jessica Gale of Sweet Gale Gardens returns, this time to talk about selling flowers to florists and into the wedding industry.  The image featured with this episode was grabbed from this greeting card website.  

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. The Ruminant Podcast is for people who are passionate about farming, gardening, food politics, food security, and the intersections among these topics. At theruminant.ca, you'll find a summary of each episode, as well as book reviews, essays, and photo-based blog posts to stimulate your thinking about food production. I tweet, at ruminant blog and email from editor at the ruminant.ca. All right, time for the show. Hey folks, it's Jordan. Okay, so a lot of you are aware that we've been on this new format with the show, where one week I zoom in and focus on practical farming and gardening skills. And then the next week I zoom out and generally have a longer form conversation

about a much broader topic that relates to food and food politics and agriculture and such. I have been enjoying that. I think a lot of people have, but I am starting to see the writing on the wall, so to speak, as regards how busy I am on the farm. And I don't know that I'm going to be able to get many more long-form, broader topic conversations recorded this summer. So the good news is that it's much easier to get these shorter practical skills conversations

recorded. So I think I can keep those up, but I may have to deviate from this week on week off type of schedule. And just through the summer, get some of these conversations with other other farmers and growers and academics on practical stuff. So be prepared. That's probably very likely you're going to get a larger dose of that stuff and less of the broader stuff, which will return with a vengeance in the fall and in the winter. So what else do I want to talk about? Seth from Amistad Farm, who is fast becoming a frequent contributor to the podcast and to the blog, Amistad Farm, who is fast becoming a frequent contributor to the podcast and to the blog, has been writing me recently to let me know that he's been trying out using his sickle bar mower to cut down his cover crops, but then raking it and harvesting it, sort of like hay, dried out a

little bit, harvesting it, and then using it as mulch for certain crops like tomatoes. So with these episode notes for this show, I'll post a couple photos of Seth's progress and then perhaps down the road when Seth has actual results from how it went, that can turn into his own blog post. But look for that with the show notes at the ruminant for this episode. And other than that, I'm really happy to introduce today's topic. So my first guest today is new to the show. Her name is Lydia Carpenter, and she's at Lunafield Farm out in Manitoba. I had a really interesting conversation that you're going to hear today all about pasturing pork. And then after that, you're going to hear for the second time from Jessica Gale.

I'm from Jessica Gale. Jessica is one of my cut flower consultants, I guess, who's out in Ontario at Sweet Gale Gardens. And Jessica came on today to talk about marketing one's flowers to florists and into the wedding market. So first you're going to hear from Lydia and then after that, Jessica. And here we go. Here's Lydia's bio followed by our conversation my name is Lydia Carpenter I am from southwestern Manitoba where we raise cattle sheep pigs and chickens in a pasture-based farming operation the farm is called Luna Field Farm Lydia Carpenter thanks a lot for joining me on the Ruminant Podcast. Well, thanks for having me.

So Lydia, for this conversation, you suggested we talk about landscape-scale hog management. And that's kind of fascinating to me because I don't even really know what that is. So let's start with what you mean by landscape-scale hog management. You know, pasture-ra raising hogs is really sort of becoming quite popular. And when I talk about landscape scale management, I guess I'm just making reference to the fact that, you know, with, I'm on the prairie, so with access to larger tracts of land, hogs can be a really great addition to any grazing operation or any operation where you have quite a few acres of bush that are available to you.

Yeah, I don't know. I think for anyone who, you know, Joel Salatin wrote that great book, Pasture Poultry Profits, they run hogs in the bush as well. And I think it's sort of a natural addition to a multi-species operation and especially for folks who are direct marketing it seems like one perhaps one um special function of hogs perhaps over other types of pastured livestock is that there you can you can you can kind of apply these concepts even into kind of rougher terrain within your farm ecosystem?

Like you're saying bush, I assume you mean like a little bit less developed aspects of the farm. Is that true? Is it, you know, are hogs a little bit more adaptable to being able to, you know, kind of flourish on land that is like lower grade in terms of pasture and agriculture? Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a natural environment for hogs, you know, using bush. You know, you can use cattle sort of like in a holistic plan grazing operation. Cattle can be used to improve bush if you're trying to convert it over to a different successional stage or if you want, you know, a more meadow environment,

you can use high densities of cattle for that effect as well. But, you know, in terms of a durist fight operation, it's sort of a natural environment for hogs. There are things, you know, that you have to be careful with when you're managing hogs because they can turn a lot of soil. And so, you know, if you are in a, like when I talk about bush, we might talk about what we would consider to be more marginal land. So where we have a, you know, shrubby environment that we may want to turn into more of like an old growth with meadow or that we want to

convert into more of like a silvopasture type environment. So they do really well in that environment. We move ours quite often through the summertime. Of course, I'm in Manitoba, so throughout the winter, the ground is completely frozen, which means that they can't really turn as much ground. But they also do well in a pasture environment. So if you had fewer trees, but you wanted to put them out on grass into a rotational system where they either were a leader ahead of your cattle or followed behind your cows, that could be done as well. One thing that's great about the hogs is that they don't need very much infrastructure. So we only use a one line of electric netting. It's actually an aircraft cable to keep them where we want them.

So in terms of moving them, that makes fencing requirements quite easy. So you could go either bush or pasture, and they do really well in both those environments. So Lydia, I guess this, I probably should have started with this question. I think an important question is why pasture pigs on, you know, if you have a farm with generally just really good pasture what is the argument for pasturing your pigs versus keeping them in a slightly more confined setup that is common to a lot of farms what are what are the what are the major benefits of pasturing those those pigs given that they're monogastric you know there's a few benefits um like for us this is an example we, like the landscape scale management is really important to us in the winter months.

So we create these portable shelters for the hogs. We put them out on pasture in the winter and summer as well. But in the wintertime, the ground's frozen. So they can't, you know, really turn up the soil. But then the nutrients that they add to the food that they eat is amazing for the soil, as it would be with pasture poultry, for example. And so you could use a similar argument. If you raise poultry in a barn setting, that's fine,

but they're maybe not getting the same benefits themselves as an animal being out on the grass and being able to access that forage as they want to consume it. The pasture poultry, then, are moved daily, and so they tend to perform quite a bit better out The pasture poultry then are moved daily. And so they tend to perform quite a bit better out on pasture when they are being moved every day and we don't get nitrogen burnout on the soil. And so you could basically say the same thing for the pigs. Allowing pigs the space to be able to root or lie around in the sun or access forage as they want it because they do eat some, has really significant benefits not only for the pig's well-being but for the flavor of the pork.

So we find, you know, we grow our pigs a little longer and we find that managing them in a pasture environment or a forest environment actually increases the flavor of the pork. And of course you could balance this out by having what we would call like a sacrifice area. So if you have to water your pigs from a central location, that might be a corral area that's sort of a sacrifice spot where, you know, there's very high animal impact. But then you use alleyways or other mechanisms to get them back out to pasture where they're moved every day. You know, for us personally, you know, as part of a diversified operation, pork is important because we direct market.

We have been, we lease all of our land and we have been on farms where the land base maybe wasn't big enough for us to manage pigs the way that we wanted to. And so we either had fewer of them or we didn't have any at all. And so you really have to decide whether or not it fits for your operation. And then, you know, how much of the pasturing and woodlot raising you want to do versus keeping them in smaller areas. You know, we find that having them out in open spaces is beneficial to the pig's health. So just in terms of external and internal parasites, moving is really important.

So we don't have to use applications of, you know, we really don't use any chemical applications for parasites. And that could be, you know, you could say that for all species of animals in terms of having on a landscape scale and moving them. So, you know, just in terms of the animal health and well-being, you know, we have very little infrastructure on the farm, so we have very few buildings. And so being able to move the animals and then finding shelter within, you know, the bush areas is really beneficial for us. So there's also the question of existing infrastructure, money and time you want to invest in that sort of thing. So it really just depends on what resources are available to you and how much of each you want to do.

Right. Okay. So great. So now I'd like to ask you, because you're experienced in pasturing many types of livestock, to imagine the person who perhaps is already familiar with pasturing livestock, hasn't pastured pigs yet perhaps they've they've raised pigs but maybe in a more confined system can you think of any specific uh any challenges or limitations to pasturing pigs that are more specific to pigs that may be a surprise for even for the for the person who may be quite used to pasturing, say, ruminants? Yeah, I mean, they're totally, they operate in a totally different way in terms of, you know, impact. Like, I would say that people might be most surprised with the amount of earth that a pig, a large pig,

so let's say, you know, even an 80 to 150 pound pig can move. And so, you know, like, we don't do, we do high density grazing with our sheep and cattle, for example, where we would move them every 12 to 24 hours. But the pigs are given a much larger space, even if they are moved every, you know, 24 hours, just because they can turn so much earth. One thing that people, I think, are also often surprised about when they come to our farm is how pigs can be difficult to keep in behind fence, but they can also be very easy to keep in behind fence. And so we use electric netting.

We find that any physical barrier, so something that's not electrified, just a physical barrier, a pig can get through no problem. Whereas the psychological barriers, like the electric fence, is incredibly effective with pigs. And so we keep our pigs in with one strand of electric wire, which I think is often surprising for people when they first come and see our pig operation. Right. And okay. So what about, what about feeding as a specific challenge?

And I guess this would maybe put them in a similar category to pasturing poultry, but I still want to ask, you know, unlike ruminants that you, I imagine you have to, you have to get feed out to them, I guess is, I have to imagine is your system. So are there special challenges with that or is that fairly easy to handle? Yeah, it just depends on what scale you're operating at. I mean, like we have, you know, if you're just doing a few pigs, you can quite easily pail feed them if you're up for, you know, the carrying of pails or moving them, whatever you want to do that way.

You know, for our operation right now, we probably have about 70 hogs on pasture. And we feed them using, we use a New Holland mix mill, and we feed them three tons at a time. And so at this point, we are using a tractor and a mill, milling feed on farm, and then taking it out to the site where the pigs are and basically augering it into a feeder and we have to do that every you know three or four days for example and so in that way we're we are mechanized in that way and so sometimes the challenge for folks might be going from, you know,

quite small groups of pigs to jumping into larger numbers. The in-between might be a bit of a challenge in terms of getting feed to them. And, of course, it depends where in the country you live. We're on the prairies, so grains are fairly accessible to us in fairly large loads. So if we needed some barley, we could get that from someone fairly close by and have it delivered to our farm. But for someone maybe on Vancouver Island, that would be more of a challenge just in terms of finding feed.

And so for us, I would say finding feed ingredients because we mill feed from grain is not a challenge. And the fact that we have gone to the point where it's mechanized, that's helpful. But they do eat a lot. And so, you know, I've heard folks talk about raising pigs on quite a bit of forage and less grain or other types of feedstuffs, and that just really hasn't been our experience, just in terms of getting an animal to market size. You know, and we raise our pigs till they're about 12 months old before we market them. So we don't push them per se, but we do have to provide grain for them.

Right. Yeah. And in this context of talking about pastured pigs, is it worth any words devoted to farrowing, or does that kind of happen closer to home base? It just depends on the time of year. So we do, we do farrow our own pigs. We find, you know, we can buy weanlings, that's a possibility, but we kind

of like to farrow at home here. So we keep, I think this year we maybe have, you know, 15 gilts, so young pigs that are going to farrow. And we've started now, so we started in about April, and we'll go until about July. So the ones who farrow early, we do have some loose housing in an area where we can give them their own little stall or pen, just with some straw and feed and water. But once it starts to warm up and they're out in the bush, we do have pigs that will farrow out in the bush.

And so we take large straw bales out to them, and they will do that on their own in the bush as well. Okay, so those who are farrowing needn't treat that as a barrier to implementing a pasturing plan, I guess, for their pigs. No, it just depends. No, not necessarily. I mean, it depends. Like, you know, we have pretty good records for the pigs that farrow early in the year.

So we know, you know, who farrowed and how many she had and if she lost any. But later in the season, you know, we have had in the past pigs that farrow and we don't see the piglets until they're a week old. Now, some people can't,, some people can hardly believe that. We let them farrow out in the bush, but it's worked really well for us. They stay within the fence, and we do fairly well in terms of the number of piglets that farrow per gilt.

Lydia, did you say fairly well or farrowly well? I think I said farrowly well. Sorry, I'm just, I'm being a dummy. What, you were about to say one other thing and I hope I didn't. No, one other thing is that we farrow gilts. So, so pig, female pigs that are a year old that haven't had a litter yet, that's what we farrow, and then we actually market those. So we don't have sows on the farm. I see. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Well, look, this isn't my wheelhouse, Lydia,

and I want to wrap up, but I also just want to ask you, is there anything else you think we've missed before we wrap up here? Oh, gosh. I don't know. I mean, there's so much to say about everything. I'm sure people have specific questions about certain things that they're trying out. I would say that, just so people know, when we started, we only started with half a dozen pigs. And we sort of started with this system right from the get-go where we were using a smaller wood lot. And because it's low infrastructure,

just in terms of like we don't use buildings or anything, because it's low infrastructure, you can expand with your land base and with your management. And so I think maybe for folks listening, that's one of the benefits, not just with pigs, but with, you know, raising animals on pasture and grass, you know, and farrowing in the spring or lambing in June in Manitoba here or calving in June is that we have low infrastructure costs. So it doesn't limit your ability to expand or contract as you see fit.

That's a great point. Yeah. Well, Lydia Carpenter, thank you so much for joining me on the show to pass on some of your knowledge to my listeners. Well, thanks for having me. I hope I was helpful. My name is Jessica Gale, and my farm is Sweet Gale Gardens. I started out as an urban farmer and now I'm moving out to the country and I specialize in cut flowers for sale at market, grocery stores,

and I also do special events in a CSA. It's www.sweetgale, G-A-L-E, gardens with an S, dot com. Jessica Gale, thanks a lot for coming back on the Room in a Podcast. Thank you for having me, Jordan. Jessica, today we're going to focus on marketing and more specifically, taking that step towards selling to florists or selling directly into the wedding scene. But before we do that, I just want to confirm an assumption with you. As a market gardener, I've considered doing cut flowers. Is it safe to say that a lot of people would probably come

into flowers that way and that those people would likely start just putting flowers on their stall at the market and that florists and weddings would be the next big step into into expanding the cut flower business. Do you think that's pretty common? Yeah, no, I think that's where I see a lot of people starting is that they're curious about flowers, they would like to give them a try and like, putting some bouquets on your table is a great way to attract more people to your table and sort of experiment with that see what people's reaction is to your product um so yeah i do definitely see a lot of people starting that way and getting into selling to florists and especially doing special events is like kind of definitely the next tier of commitment when it comes to flowers.

And is that how did what how did you like how did you proceed with your flowers? Did you did you proceed in that way starting with markets or what how did it work for you? Yeah, so I actually kind of did it backwards, which I don't necessarily recommend. I started growing flowers and was delivering them more like as bouquet subscriptions in my first year. And then I happened to know a couple of people that were getting married and I was very anxious about doing their weddings. Like I'd, you know, arranged flowers, but only for fun. I didn't have a tremendous amount of design skills and they were just happy having something local, having something simple. And I said, okay, it can be like selling to florists, doing special

events can be very rewarding in different ways. Like obviously there's great rewards when it comes to the financial aspect of it. But also like one of the things I've found working especially with people who are in the floral industry selling to designers is it really broadens your community of people and you encounter some very different people creative people and so that's one of the reasons I really love it. It's like, I often compare selling to florists, like selling to chefs, like they're particular, they have their vision, they can be hard to manage and to handle. And that's why a lot of flower farmers won't deal with florists. But I think that's really sad, like, cause you're missing working with people that are very creative, have a lot of good ideas and are really aching for

local, beautiful product. Working with weddings, like I don't, I think it's actually something very different. Like I don't think there's like a veggie equivalent because you do form relationships with a couple, you get to know their lives. And like you're involved in this very personal, special, um, part of their lives. And so I don't know if there's quite an equivalent for it. Um, but, uh, and it's different too, because it's a very last minute, um, push of work and you are then involved in the creative process. You get to become the florist, at least in a sense. Okay, so let's back up a bit, though.

Would you recommend one or the other for that flower grower who hasn't done either yet? Whether to do one or the other, I think that it takes different types of interpersonal skills to deal with one versus the other. I think that dealing with florists feels similar to dealing with restaurants in that you have to be ready to deal with different expectations. So when they want deliveries, how they want things delivered, the amounts they want delivered. So it's a bit more piecemeal and you have to have some willingness to go with their flow, their schedule. And I find each year I try to follow some of the advice that I read in The Lean Farmer, the way he deals with chefs, to really try to tailor my interactions with the florists to suit them better.

Because they become very loyal clients, but you need to realize the way their shops work, the way their studios work, and not try to force them into a different mold, because that won't create loyalty. So I guess you've got to kind of check your ego at the door, right? You know, and just realize that the quality's got to be there, but so does the customer service in a big way. Yeah, for sure. It demands a lot more customer service than other aspects of selling flowers.

And you have to be willing to listen to feedback. And if someone tells you that you know like that bunch of flowers that you gave me it flopped it didn't perform well you have to like you know take that advice and go back and change your your you know harvesting or your production or your delivery or whatever you're doing because like you kind of need to take that advice and they're going to pay attention to that because that's their product versus you know someone who buys a bouquet from you at market they might mention to you oh it seemed to not last as long but they don't pay attention like a florist will pay attention because their money is riding on what you give them also. And I would say with weddings, you, it's just, it's a bit of more of

a stressful sort of setup, just in the sense that you're dealing with people that are doing this. It's crazy today. Like the, I look at what people do for events and you think like, and I've, you know, I've been married, like I've planned a wedding and you think like, and I've, you know, I've been married, like I've planned a wedding and you think like, it's amazing. You know, you know why people have wedding planners, because no one's used to setting up an event for a hundred, 200 people. Like most of us don't have the skills to pull something like that off. And so there's a lot of expectations and hopes and stuff the way things are going to turn out. And so, you know, you have to have a very, you know, calming demeanor, you have to, you also have to check your ego at the door in the sense that like, from a design perspective,

you can't always do what you want to do, Like you have to follow some of the inspiration for what they're asking for the style that they like, or you have to learn to like only take on people that match your style or match what you like to produce. Because like, if you give people things that aren't like what they were dreaming of, that's a bit of a shock. a shock so um so you have to be good at listening to what people want um explaining the process and being very clear about the seasonality of flowers and how no I can't guarantee this one flower and so I think it's it's a different type of um discussion to be having but it can be really rewarding to see, like, all these beautiful images coming out of people's weddings. You know, your product being involved in this really special time with people.

And flowers can really set a mood in a wedding, set the environment, and create, create like a very different space. So Jessica, can you give me an, I just, I'm really curious, like what's a, what's an average billing for one wedding that you've experienced? What is a really high billing and what is a, what is the lowest billing you would even, even, even consider? Yeah. So that's a really good question, because there's a lot of different ways you can do a wedding. So one of the options that I've really stuck to over the years is allowing people to buy do it yourself buckets for me from me, I was a do it yourself bride, I know what it's like to work on a budget and also wanting to like do something creative like

that for your wedding. So the cheapest possible thing you could do is like buy a bucket of flowers for me and I will typically you know give you a big brimming full flowers bucket for $75 and then all the way on the opposite end is what we would call like a full service wedding. So this is like you're going to have flowers for everyone in your wedding party. You're going to have, you know, boutonnieres and corsages for your family. You're going to have centerpieces on every table. You're going to have ceremony flowers, like anything and everything you can imagine with flowers. and everything you can imagine with flowers.

And that really depends on where you live and the clientele that you are trying to attract. For myself personally, the most I've ever had is about between $2,500 and $3,000 for a wedding. But there's a lot more, I would say higher end farmer florists that could do, oh, I don't know, like $20,000. It's pretty, yeah, it's pretty crazy. However, like you hear those numbers and you think, oh my gosh. But for instance, like those higher end folks, they have to have a much larger staff that they have to pay for doing an incredible amount of work. They have to sometimes get an additional product that they have to pay for.

They're getting fancy vases. They're getting all these supplies. So like it really depends. Like you hear those big numbers, but that's not profit. That's like the full price but that's not what they necessarily put in their pockets at the end oh of course no i was just trying to get a sense of what kind of numbers are involved i mean the labor involved in a full service wedding would be incredible if you were doing all that stuff absolutely um and most people

that do that sort of work that's all they do like, um, there's a flower farmer I'm thinking of in Philadelphia, who's an urban grower and all she does pretty much is weddings. She does like a few like grocery store things, but that's because she runs a small operation. She does only weddings and she's busy from like April until the end of October, November, doing weddings like almost every weekend. And that's all she does. And that takes a lot of time and energy to do both the growing of the flowers and then all of that design work can take a really long time. So, you know, like it's like I I do a little bit of everything and I think eventually I'm going to have to choose more what to specialize in, because when you do a little bit of everything, it's hard to find the time. So find the time and just start building business momentum. I could. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Jessica, let's, let's finish by just

jumping back over to selling to florists. And I'm just wondering if you could walk me through, you know, I haven't sold to a florist before and I I'd like to start and, uh, how, how can, how can I get my foot in the door and, and, and let's, and maybe talk a little bit about how to talk to florists. Yeah, sure. So usually what I've done is if I'm interested in sort of courting a florist, I'll send them an email to start and just introduce myself, tell them what I do. I also prepare like a few different documents for them to look at. So the first thing is my price list and how I sell my flowers. So I sell things by the bucket. I sell things by the stem.

I sell things by the bunch. So they understand what, you know, they like to see the dollars and cents. And then the other thing is because a lot of them, it's a bit surprising, but a lot of them don't have an idea of what the seasonality is for certain flowers. So I send them a bloom chart too. So I created this document that has, you know, little bars showing when different flowers are going to be in season approximately. And that really helps them if they're, you know, planning weddings and stuff, they can say to a couple like, oh, I can get these types of flowers at this time. And then I just have like a bit of a write up about my business and so forth that I sent to them. So that's usually the first step. And a lot of times I also try to really make time

in the off season to go and meet them. Like I, um, will go and have coffee with them. I will answer their questions. Um, I'll visit them at their shop and see how they work. Um, and then additionally to that, if you're, you're having someone that's being a little bit reluctant, I think one of the best ways to attract a new florist is to cut some of your best blooms in the summer and make a special free delivery and give them flowers to play with. And that is usually like, that is such a selling point because they see the difference in the scent, the way they last, the texture of them. And it's, you know, it would be a pretty rare florist to not get sold on that. And so that's usually the process I worked on with florists. And, and also like,

for instance, in the next couple of weeks, I owe my florist customers a newsletter. And so I'll send them a newsletter and I'll say, you know, tell them how my season's going, how certain crops are coming along. You know, I've had a few crop failures, so I'll let them know what might not be available. And then just touching base with them again, because things are starting to get really busy for them. So to remind them that I'm there, really busy for them. So to remind them that I'm there, um, remind them of, you know, what's going to be available and when, um, and, and yeah, so I think like a lot of the off season time really can pay off, um, having those coffee dates, um, sharing what you do. And then the last thing that I've, I've always wanted to do, but I think finally this year, I'm going to pull it off is to have florists out to the farm. And this can backfire. I've heard

of cases where, you know, friends, flower farmer friends online saying that they had a florist out and they were like, oh my gosh, there's bugs here and stuff like that. But I think for the most part, when I've had friends that are florists that come out to the farm and they see the abundance, they just like go head over heels. They just love it. And so one of the things I want to do this summer is have a florist open house at the farm and just have them over, have some snacks and wander the fields and send them home with some free flowers. And so, yeah, it does take, like, I think dealing with florists and doing weddings is not for a farmer who is much happier just being in the field and, like, growing the stuff and sending it out and not having like

a lot of interaction like you do have to have a bit of a you know schmoozing with with these folks um but I think it's really rewarding I've found working with florists um I've been much more involved with creative pursuits like um doing uh flower art uh installations um in other projects and so I think that these relationships can be very rewarding um and it's also it generates more business so one florist tells another florist one couple tells another couple that's getting married and so what's great about these things is I find that I don't have to do a lot of advertising. Like people end up coming to me because they hear from other people. So, um, well, okay. One, I think one more question. I think it's

pretty quick. I just want to know, like, okay, you know, I'm a cut flower grower. I haven't sold to florists before. Can you name two or three species that are most likely to get you in the door? Yeah, that's a good question. I think dahlias, if you have a little bit more experience, are really great for florists. They love dahlias. There's so many beautiful varieties. They use them a lot in event work. Let's see what else they also love just like little bits of things like they love foliage they love airy things so

like things like false queen anne's lace um they love herbs so like flowering basil yeah like the airy bits they love if if people can grow foliage like that's the thing i always hear from florists is they can never get foliage it's always well it works when you're on the west coast a lot of it's coming out of bc um but they can't get interesting stuff like that i even have people asking me to go and forage for them because they love getting branches and brambles and all these interesting bits. And they don't, especially because a lot of the florists are in more urban areas, they don't have access to that or time or plant identification skills. So yeah, so that those are the things that are very interesting. Like, I think you can't go wrong growing things like Lysianthus, uh, Dahlias, um, anything they can't get at a wholesaler. That's the stuff you need to find out.

out back to weddings jessica one last question sure is it kind of like new photographers i mean would you recommend because so much wedding business can come from word of mouth people have you do their wedding then the word of mouth happens is that does that suggest that that you should one should consider doing it for free or for very very cheap for their for their friends for their wedding to to build that? Or is that a bad idea? Never do it for free. It's too much work. You know, like, for instance, I have done weddings for family members and very close friends for the cost of the materials. But, like, there's just so much that goes into it.

Don't do it for free. However, when I first started started i did do things at a discounted rate but there comes a time where you need to start charging for your real time in the product and stuff and it does i do recommend if you are getting into weddings and you could talk to someone who's a florist or join some of the groups on like Facebook that are flower farmers to talk about how to put together a proper budget because I know myself like when I was first getting started I barely covered my own time sometimes and like the cost of my materials and that's for the amount of effort that goes into it um that's not a sustainable business model so like

learning how to create a proper budget and then trying to stick to it and then if you would like to give people like I try to make my flowers available for people of all incomes and so that's why I do things like do it yourself that's why. That's why I offer a la carte, so people can just order a few pieces. But yes, having friends, having family, and doing it for them, that's a great way to start. Also having a really bang-up website, that's also a very important piece. Collecting photos of your work um you know taking them yourself collecting them from other photographers and creating a really beautiful um website that shows the breadth of your work um and then just playing like you can also just create stuff with your flowers maybe not

for anyone in particular but to have material to show on your portfolio, on your website. But that is a great way to get started. And yeah. Well, Jessica, remind listeners where they can go and see your bang up website. So my website is www.sweetgaylegardens.com. And Gale is spelled G-A-L-E. Jessica Gale, thank you so much for giving me and the listeners your time today. It was really interesting and I think very helpful. Yeah, thanks for having me, Jordan.

All right, so that's about it for this week, folks. Talk to you in approximately seven days trying to give me the screw but if we bury ourselves in the woods in the country we're no closer we never have laundry we'll owe nothing to this world of thieves Live life like it was meant to be, aw don't fret honey I've got a plan to make our final escape All we'll need is each other a hundred dollars And maybe a roll of duct tape

And we'll run right outside of the city's reaches We'll live off chestnuts, spring water and peaches We'll owe nothing to this world of thieves And live life like it was meant to be Because why would we live in a place that don't want us A place that is trying to bleed us dry. We could be happy with life in the country with salt on our skin and the dirt on our hands. I've been doing a lot of thinking, some real soul searching, and here's my final resolve.

I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong. So we'll run right out into the wilds and graces. out into the wilds and braces. We'll keep close quarters with gentle faces and live next door to the birds and the bees and live life like it was meant to be. Bye.