The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e88: Cut Flower Maintenance, Farm Internship Workshop

Episode Date: July 25, 2016

This ep: Jessica Gale of Sweet Gale Gardens is back with suggestions for taking good care of your cut flowers throughout the season: soil fertility management, pruning tips, deadheading, and harvesting.  After that: Dr. Charles Levkoe joins me to talk about the politics and practice of farm internships as a source of labour on farms. Charles and colleagues are hosting a one day workshop on the topic as a precursor to Food Secure Canada's 9th National Assembly in Toronto in October. foodandlabour.ca is where you can find out more about the workshop, and register. Or, download this PDF. Or go here to learn about the overall conference.  

This is the Ruminant Podcast. I'm Jordan Marr. Alright, so today on the show there's two guests coming up for you. The first is Jessica Gale of Sweet Gale Gardens. You may remember her. She's been on before to talk about various topics related to growing and marketing cut flowers. And she's back today to talk about ongoing maintenance in the flower garden. Stuff like ongoing nutrition considerations and how to effectively prune your flowers, as well as harvesting techniques. After that, you'll hear from Charles Levko, who is the Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Food Systems at Lakehead University.

Charles joined me to talk a little bit about a really cool workshop on farm internships that's coming up as part of a larger food policy conference in Toronto in October. So that's what's happening in good old episode 88. Let's get to it. My name is Jessica Gale and my farm is Sweet Gale Gardens. I started out as an urban farmer and now I'm moving out to the country and I specialize in cut flowers for sale at market grocery stores and I also do special events in a CSA. It's www.sweetgallegardens.com. Jessica Gale of Sweet Gale Gardens, welcome back to the Ruminant Podcast. Thanks Jordan. Today you suggested we talk about ongoing maintenance of your cut flowers given that we're kind of smack dab in the middle of summer yeah no i thought there's a few different things to be thinking about when you're a flower farmer just like you know all my veggie growing friends are thinking about pruning their tomatoes

and doing other things like that um i've got sort of my ongoing to-do list beyond the general sort of weeding maintenance and replanting and that sort of thing. I guess we can assume then that you are speaking to the listener who is perhaps still fairly new at growing cut flowers. And yet, by some miracle, they've managed to produce a garden full of flowers and it's midsummer. And now they've got to make sure they take care of them and harvest them properly so with that in mind let's let's proceed could could you maybe maybe could you start first with a little bit of about ongoing nutrition sure so um with flowers they're they're very similar to vegetables um in the sort of nutrients that they need. Um, I've read some things that they actually, you know, take a bit less nutrients than some vegetables, but, um, you know, the beginning of the season, I always start most importantly with a soil test. Um, and so when

I'm building my beds, I'm, uh, applying appropriate compost and amendments, um, to make sure that I'm getting closer to having a better balanced soil that's nice and loose and has good texture and nutrients for my flowers. I really think an annual soil test is pretty essential. And I've mentioned it on the show before, and I mentioned it again, because I think it's easy to skip it because it's finicky. You've got to bag it up and get it sifted or whatever and sent off in the mail. And that can be a hassle. Or maybe you have a place to bring it. But at any rate, there's a few steps. I think for that reason, people tend to downplay it or ignore it. But I think it is so crucial to just be every once in a while kind of taking stock of what's happening in your soil. Yeah, totally. And I think it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be hard-lined about it and

trying to be balancing your nutrients to an exact science. I'm fairly on the fence about how much um uh like mineral-based amendments um should be applied to soils like i'm i do a little bit um but i also my big thing is um looking at the organic matter in the soil and um i want to see over time and a plot that percentage should go up and I should see it, you know, in the texture of the soil and the seeing an increased amount of soil biology. Um, also not to waste money, um, on applying things that you don't need or, um, too much of certain things. Um, and this year I even, like, I was feeling a little behind, my soil notes, and I just was like, you know what? I paid for an organic agronomist to look at my results and to give me some recommendations, and it was very cheap. So, yeah, worthwhile investment. As the season goes on, after I've, you know, begun planting, I try really hard to stick to a regime of, I personally like to use like a seaweed kelp sort of mix.

I use a liquid seaweed and then a powdered kelp as like a bonus for nutrition for my plants. And I really do think that that makes a difference. I started using it a few years back and you can really see the plants perk up. And especially it's really important during times where the plants are particularly stressed or when they're trying to set out flowers because they're putting a lot of energy into that. So giving them a little boost, I think really helps. In the past also I've done a compost tea brews, which is, you know, partly nutritional, partly a way to hopefully prevent diseases that are fungal-based. This year, I haven't been doing that as much just because I don't have my brewery set up, slash it's been so dry um i have not even seen remote issues with um you know fungal based right right of course cool and uh really quickly on the liquid kelp are you are is that in a backpack sprayer are you diluting it and spraying it and on the soil or on the

plants or both uh a little both um backpack spray sprayer is my current tool. And one of the things I've done this year that I found, I got a little bit out of the habit of it, but I'm trying to get back into the swing of things. I, in the past, would put on my backpack sprayer and try spraying for like four and five hours at a time. And the backpack sprayers particularly, I think are really hard on women's bodies. Like it's so much of the weight is placed upon the shoulders and, um, that's not where we carry weight very easily. So I would just kill my back after four or five hours. Um, and I had back problems last, um, last summer. So, um, this year, what I tried doing was, um, to, um, just spray for one hour every day. So I fill up my backpack sprayer in the morning.

I load it up into my car, bring it out to the plot. And when I jump out of the van, that was the first thing I did first thing in the morning. And I did, you know, I could fit in about two 100 foot rows, spraying each morning, and it really helped it become a part of my routine. It kind of my routine got thrown off with all the harvesting and stuff beginning. But I think that's just a way better way of doing it than trying to tackle massive portions of mean i bought a i bought a compost uh brewer tea brewer at the start of this year it's still in the box because i just didn't set it up in a way systematically where i could incorporate it into my weekly or or monthly kind of applications yeah yeah no and i think it's also sometimes about doing things in small, manageable chunks. Like I've also been trying to do that.

Well, I tried to do that more in the beginning with weeding and it was it was working pretty well just because that's also a task, an ongoing task that is really important. And if you let it kind of go long periods between it's when it becomes more and more unmanageable. So you spend more time bent over or, you know, hoeing and it's just a real hard thing on your body versus trying to tackle it in small chunks. So Jessica, let's move on to the topic of pinching and pruning, something I know pretty much nothing about with regards to flowers anyway. So what are some general comments you can make about doing

that through the main part of the season? So there's types of flowers that you can pinch, and the result is you get more stems on the plant to sell. Some farmers don't pinch because they want one really long flower stem. So this is more typical, I would say, in larger farms, greenhouse settings where they're trying, they don't really care as much about getting multiple stems off of one plant. They want one large stem and then they're going to probably rip out the whole plant. But for most flower farmers, I would say there are certain flowers that benefit from having a pinch. And so by pinching, I mean when the plant is between, say, anywhere between 8 and 12 inches tall, you are going to, and this sounds really counterintuitive, but it really is a good thing.

You actually pinch off the top of the plant. So there's only, say, three to four sets of leaves remaining. say, three to four sets of leaves remaining. And so you're taking off the apical meristem of the plant. And instead of sending, you know, one main leader up, you're encouraging multiple leaders to sprout out the sides. And so a lot of people, I think, get nervous about doing this because you have this beautiful transplant and you're like, oh man, I can't believe I'm going to like hack it down to half the size. But it really makes the difference for having nice long multiple stems on your plant. And so some of the plants that really benefit from this are zinnias, dahlias,

even sweet peas, cosmos, celosia, etc. And I'm finding, well, I'll see what happens. There's a few things I didn't pinch in time. And now I'm kind of half half pinching them half harvesting them and we'll see how well they turn out but um i find the easiest time to do it is if you have good size transplants is to do it as you transplant so i go i'll pinch a whole tray and then i'll plant all of them and that way you don't have to remember to come back to it. Oh, also basil does well that way if you're going to use basil as a cut flower. Yeah, I was just thinking about basil

as you were explaining that. Okay, well, moving along then. Are we moving along? Is that what you wanted to say about pinching and pruning? Yeah, I guess maybe kind of leading into that too is um is talking a little bit about harvesting and and also dead heading uh plants um so you know your long-awaited blooms are are coming on and when you go to do that first harvest um you're going to be tempted because you're going to see all these side shoots to be like shy about taking a cut. And when I first started farming, I would, you know, just kind of

cut it down to the next stem and try to leave the other little side shoots because I wanted those to grow. But I was always finding, you finding you know that's I never really got very long stems on my flowers and you know a lot of one of the important things in the cut flower world is to have fairly long stems and so one of the things I learned and started doing more properly and started doing more properly is especially on that first cut to take a really deep cut. So again, that means that when I'm cutting a stem off of say a zinnia, often one of the first parts of the plant to flower is going to be a center flower. You're going to look at it and you're going to see these side shoots and be tempted to cut only to the next side shoots. But actually, it's better to sort of cut down further, perhaps two or three sets of

like side shoots down. And you're going to end up, you know, just stripping off those extra side shoots because they're not going to blossom and you're going to end up you know just stripping off those extra side shoots because they're not going to blossom and you're going to think oh what a waste however that action is like pinching in the sense that it encourages the side shoots to grow longer and in general like plants they're they're tougher than they look. They like to be cut fairly hard. Like after a while, they'll lose their energy to produce longer stems. But to get really high quality cut flower stems, it's good to take nice big long cuts out of them. cut flower stems, it's good to take nice big long cuts out of them. In addition to that, and this is something that I think if you've got a good harvest routine going on, you don't need to think about this as much, but if you don't harvest all of your flowers, it's also good to

go through and deadhead off the flowers. So pinching off some of the spent blossoms and stuff, because what you're trying to do is to trick the plant into producing more flowers. You don't want it to go to seed because it's going to start slowing down because it's done its duty. It wants to get to the seed point. It wants to continue its genetics. And so if you continue to harvest into deadhead, the plant will try to continue to produce blossoms. Right. It's so funny. The last couple of things you said, there's such analogs in the veggie garden.

I mean, the last thing you said, that's like the same with beans and peas. I've always understood you want to try and keep stuff harvested the pods harvested so that encourages the plant to put out more flowers uh and then in terms of uh pinching um it's kind of like broccoli in a sense like if you're growing a variety of broccoli that puts out one big main uh flower head but then starts shooting out side shoots afterward it's always tough to decide how far down to cut some stem for that main that main head yeah but so perhaps the same applies maybe if you do cut lower down it's going to encourage those those coming shoots to grow more rigorously yeah and the important thing is like if you want the plant to to send out another flush or two of flowers you

need to to leave enough of the plant for it to regenerate itself and so um at least two to three sets of leaves and they should be nice looking leaves because sometimes those bottom leaves are kind of all ragged and stuff but they need enough leaf surface to continue, you know, photosynthesizing properly and to keep the plant alive. But sometimes, you know, to be honest, like I had some stock flowers this year that were not satisfactory. And like, I looked at them and I thought, you know, I'm not going to get good secondary shoots out of these. So I just cut them off at the ground. So sometimes that that happens but most of the time especially if you're a flower farmer on a smaller scale you want your plants to be producing as much stems per plant as possible especially if you're limited on space. Right so

so Jessica what about harvest and I'm wondering specifically if you can think back to when you were a beginner, some of the mistakes you were making as you did your ongoing harvesting of your flowers. Yeah, harvesting and the proper time to harvest is like, is a bit of, there's a bit of a laundry list because every flower is different. And so it'd be hard for me to go into like the proper harvesting stage of a bunch of different flowers. So what I would recommend to new growers is to read up on things first. You know, whether's um discussion groups online a good flower farmer book um some of the blogs like florette has really great notes about um harvest uh times um and then the other thing is just experimenting like some of the stuff i've sort of figured out just by cutting things at different stages and watching them in the face. Like, you know, I have flowers in my house partly for enjoyment, but partly from

an experimental standpoint to see how certain things last. And, you know, so I look at something and I say, oh, you know, like I did that a little too early and it's starting to flop earlier. It didn't last as long. So it's important to take some of your product home for your own enjoyment, but also to watch and to see how it survives in the vase. And maybe a few other quick points. Important things about harvesting some tips is to start with with clean tools and uh clean buckets um particularly i would say clean buckets like cleaning buckets is like like one of

the most annoying flower farmer chores but it's so essential that you're not reusing again and again, dirty buckets, because one of the ways, one of the reasons why cut flowers decay quicker is because they absorb bacteria through their stem and it, they start to decay because of that. And so if you have dirty buckets, you're going to just introduce, you know, it's a, it's a wound on the plant that you're putting in the water and you're going to just introduce, you know, it's a wound on the plant that you're putting in the water. And if you introduce bacteria to that right away, like you're going to lessen your base life. Yeah, right from the beginning. Are you sterilizing your buckets or

just cleaning them? So because I'm on an organic certified farm, I just give my buckets a really good wash with just a good dish soap and water. But a lot of flower farmers will sterilize their buckets, some with a bleach solution. I guess I could use a hydrogen peroxide, I believe. But I find actually just really good soap and water does, does the trick pretty well. Um, and also some farmers recommend, um, to clean your pruners with like an alcohol. Um, especially if you're in and amongst flowers that have, um, like, uh, fungal infections and stuff like that. Well, Jessica, I know I'm busy, and I know you're probably even busier,

and I really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to come back on the show. Thanks so much. Oh, thank you, Jordan. Charles Loveco is the Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Food Systems and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Health Sciences at Lakehead University. Much of Charles' work has focused on non-waged and low-waged labour on farms, which is how I met him. I've written and podcasted about the experiences and compensation

of farm labourers and interns a number of times, and as a result was interviewed by Charles and his colleague, Michael Ekers, for some research they were doing. In October, Charles and his colleagues are hosting a workshop called Ecological Farm Internships, Models, Experiences and Justice, in conjunction with Food Secure Canada's 9th National Assembly in Toronto. Charles joins me now to talk about the workshop. Hi Charles. Hi Jordan. Charles, before we talk about this workshop, at which I should also mention, I've been invited to attend and participate in, I just thought you could talk a little bit about the context, you know, regarding, I guess, your work over the last number of years

that led to you and your colleagues putting on this workshop. So for me, I think I need to place myself a little bit in this conversation because it is how I came to this topic. I was an intern on a farm for a number of years in the east coast of Canada. And I ran a farm with a group of people out there, and we also brought interns onto our farm. So I've been involved in the kind of intern experience on both sides, both as an intern and also as a host farmer. university and to academia to kind of study about food systems and what makes food systems sustainable ecologically, economically, and socially. This issue was a real sticking point for me because in many ways, I think it really brings together a lot of the big questions

that we're facing in the food system or in the food movement. Because in many ways, farms are kind of at a very interesting pivot point. At one level, they are businesses. They need to make money to survive, to be able to sell their produce or whatever they're producing on their farm. But at the same time, especially a lot of the farms that we've been working with that are practicing various sorts of agroecological, both growing of produce, but also work with animals, working with ecosystems, you know, regeneration and a whole range of practices. In many ways, they are at the forefront of the food movement, of the food sovereignty movement, which is really looking at the right to food,

but also the way that food is really at the center of, you know of a more sustainable future. So for me and the folks I've been working with, this question of internships is a really interesting one because when you look at what an internship is, it in many ways is an unpaid labor situation where someone is coming onto the farm to work and they're either not getting paid or being paid a small stipend. And often interns get room and board in return for some of their

work as well. And in some cases, you know, a lot of people that we've been talking to see that as completely unjust and problematic and not a very sustainable way to develop the agricultural sector in this country or anywhere. But at the same time, a lot of the interns that I'm talking to and farmers would argue that there's a lot more going on than simply a labor exchange, that this is a really important and necessary way to train new farmers, to build advocates and activists that understand the food system in a more in-depth way. And then also just, you know, can participate in the food and agricultural sector in various ways, really based on their own experience and kind of deep knowledge in that area. So, I mean, I guess to make a long story short, I think what's really interesting about this

question of internships is it really raises a lot of very important questions that we need to start to think about both, you know, from a sustainability perspective, but also from a labor perspective. Right. Okay. right okay and so i'm you you you actually in your response gave a great summary of of a lot of of uh what was covered what i covered in an episode of the of the podcast with your colleague uh michael eakers that was episode 39 if if if listeners are interested but but now uh i'd really like to talk about the workshop itself uh Charles. So what can people expect?

So I'm going to be attending. You're going to be there. We're going to be, the workshop's going to be focusing on the experiences and perspectives of, and I guess structure of farm internships. But what can, this is in Toronto in October. What can people expect if they want to come and attend and participate? This is in Toronto in October. What can people expect if they want to come and attend and participate?

Yeah, so the workshop is in some ways a culmination of a lot of the research Michael and I and others in our research team have been involved with for the last two and a half years. So part of it is one way that we want to share back some of what we've learned from interns, farmers, and from a wide range of nonprofit folks as well who are actively supporting internships and supporting new farmer training. But this workshop is really meant to also move the conversation forward. So the way we've really tried to structure the workshop is to bring together key people who have been involved either directly or indirectly in our research that can speak to a series of

issues and can really kind of be the catalyst for a broader conversation. So we have three general areas that the workshop is going to be focusing on. One is on models of farmer training and farm internships. The second area is perspectives and experiences of farm internships. And the third is around justice, law, and social movement. So the plan is to bring all these people together, to have a small panel of people for each of those areas I mentioned, people for each of those areas I mentioned, give a bit of a kind of, you know, big ideas and thoughts around the current situation, but also where the conversation needs to go. And we're really hoping to have upwards of 100 people participate in this workshop and to use the group of people that attend to really move those conversations in a productive way.

So it is, in some ways, an action-oriented workshop in that it's not just about talking about ideas, but we really are hoping to come out of the workshop with some ideas of ways to move these issues forward. Well, Charles, I'd like to ask you about that. So clearly, as you just said, there's in essence an agenda to this workshop in terms of outcomes. But you're also an academic, and I've already got the sense from what you said earlier that your position on this is nuanced because it's a complicated issue. So I have a sense that you're not,

when we think about the desired outcome or agenda, it's not to get every farm host to pay a minimum wage because that's the only way it should go in these internships. Because it's just, it's a little more complicated than that. So what do you hope will come out of this conference in terms of what's happening on farms? Is it? I mean, am I wrong? Is it to get every farmer to pay their apprentice or intern or laborers at least the minimum wage? Yeah, I think you're right when you say it is nuanced.

I mean, that's kind of the... It is one of the benefits of being an academic, is we get to kind of play with the nuance a lot. And that is a privilege I recognize that we have, but it's also, I think, something that we can contribute to what people are doing on the ground and the action. And, you know, I mean, the challenge as every farmer and most interns well understand is that farmers don't make a lot of money. So the idea of demanding

that every farmer has to pay their intern is a complicated demand because for a lot of people, and we heard this from our interviews, it would just put people out of business. They couldn't survive. And to just simply say, well, if they can't pay their intern, they shouldn't survive. I mean, that's a whole sector of people doing really important agroecological work and really moving food production forward in a way that, you know, many studies have shown that that is the only way that we will survive as a human race into the future based, you know, when we look at issues of climate change, for example. So I think, you know, one of the things that we've also seen in our research, and, you know, I don't mean to diverge too much from your question, but I think it's important

to say that we found some absolutely amazing programs where people weren't getting paid minimum wage, but they were getting a lot back for their work. You know, so in many cases, back for their work. So in many cases, what we saw was a value proposition, if you will, where what interns were getting, what farmers were getting,

there was a lot of value to both sides of the equation. And I think that when we saw education programs or intern programs where education was really a priority or where people were being treated very well, I mean, those were really, really, you know, important things to document. At the same time, we also saw a lot of internship programs where none of that was happening, where people were being sent out to weed for, you know, 12 hours a day.

They weren't getting, they had to imagine they were going to get education as part of their education program, as part of their experience. And they weren't. We even heard cases of abuse. I mean, we heard all kinds of terrible experiences. And I think part of, you know, the nuance of this is to also understand, you know, what is the situation of each internship? What does it mean to have an internship program on your farm? And, you know, paying a minimum wage may be a way to make that, you know, more just or work better. But at the same time, I think we also need to look past, you know, simply the wage as the ultimate goal in this, in that, you know, for a lot of the people we talk to, there's a lot, there's much interest in thinking of alternative ways of, you know, supporting this sector. So whether that's through bartering or through, you know, a sharing of, well, you know, I'll give you education and room and board, and in return, you'll help with some of the work on the farm.

But those things aren't simple, and they're not straightforward. It's not something you can simply say, well, one, like X equals Y, and then everyone's happy, because there is some nuance to it. So those are, I guess, to come back to your question, what we hope to get out of it, I think really what we want to get out of it is to have this conversation and to really, you know, maybe even start to document some of the realities that people are facing and also what they would like to see to ensure that internship programs are both socially just, you know, socially just, but also, you know, maintain the kind of ecological and economic needs of farmers, of the food movement more broadly. Well, it sounds really interesting.

I'm delighted that I was invited, Charles, and I can't wait to go. And I'm sure some of my listeners, this would be right up their alley. If people are interested, they can find out a lot more information if they Google Food Secure Canada's 9th National Assembly, because this workshop is taking part in conjunction with a much larger conference on food security and food policy. And I was just hoping that before we wrap up, you could talk a little bit about the larger conference, because it really looks like something really interesting for anyone who cares about those topics.

Yeah, no, and we've made a very deliberate effort to time our workshop as part of the pre-conference to the FoodSkirt Canada Assembly. And we're working with a number of groups to make that happen. So FoodSkirt Canada has a new farmers initiative, and they're going to be sponsoring the workshop as well, and their chair is going to be one of the speakers on one of the panels as well. And FoodSkirt Canada, I mean, for those who don't know, is a national or pan-Canadian food movement organization. It has been very active supporting a number of initiatives across the country since about 2004, I think. And this is, as you say, the ninth national assembly. Food Secure Canada now meets every second year.

So this will be the chance to meet, to participate if folks are interested. It runs from October 13th to 16th. So our workshop is on the 13th, which is part of that pre-conference day. And there's going to be a whole range of folks coming to participate in that conference. And I know one of the main focuses this year, there's two main focuses for that conference. One is around Indigenous food sovereignty, which is something that FoodSphere Canada is really focusing on

and obviously a really important issue to think about, especially when we're talking about land and what land means to food production. But the other major issue that FoodS Sugar Canada has been very active on, which has come out of the work of the People's Food Policy, which was released in 2011, which was a national kind of conversation around food sovereignty and food policy. Food Sugar Canada is now working very closely with groups all across the country to think about what and really develop ideas around the national food policy.

So for anyone coming to our workshop or not and wanting to participate, I think actually registration is online and you can come to that. Right. And so people who want to find out more, there will be links from the show notes for this episode. Uh, but if you're going to Google it's food secure Canada, uh, the title of this year's assembly is called resetting the table. And this is all taking place, uh, from October 13th to 16th of this year. And Charles, am I, I just, I better check the date of the workshop. Is it on the 13th or is it even earlier? It is on the 13th to 16th of this year. And Charles, I better check the date of the workshop.

Is it on the 13th or is it even earlier? It is on the 13th. Okay, it's on the 13th. So the workshop's on the 13th. And people can actually go to our website, which is foodandlabor.ca, to register. And there's a bit more information on the front of our website as well.

All right, well, Charles Levko, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and tell us about this. I can't wait. I don't think we've met in person. I'm looking forward to meeting you and I really can't wait to participate in the workshop in October. Absolutely. Thanks a lot. I hope to see you and your listeners there. All right. So if you want to check out more information about that specific workshop,

you want to go to foodandlabor.ca and that is labor spelled the Canadian way with a U in there, L-A-B-O-U-R. Otherwise, check out Food Secure Canada's website if you want to look into the overall conference, which I think is going to be really cool. And of course, you can find links to this stuff in the show notes, including a PDF document that summarizes the workshop on farm internships that we've been discussing. All right, that's it, folks. I hope you enjoyed that and I will talk to you soon. Maybe next week. Who knows? I never know this time of year. It's

crazy out there. It's crazy for you too. I know you understand and I really appreciate that. Thanks and remember, eat your vegetables. Right outside of the city's reaches We'll live off chestnuts, spring water and peaches We'll owe nothing to this world of thieves And live life like it was meant to be Because why would we live in a place that don't want us A place that is trying to bleed us dry We could be happy with life in the country With salt on our skin

and the dirt on our hands I've been doing a lot of thinking Some real soul searching And here's my final resolve I don't need a big old house Or some fancy car To keep my love going strong So we'll run right out

Into the wilds and braces We'll keep close quarters With gentle faces And live next door To the birds and the bees and live life like it was meant to be Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.