The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - e.94: Better GH Practices

Episode Date: March 3, 2018

This ep: First I speak with Andew Mefferd, author of The Greenhouse and Hoophouse Grower's Handbook (superb!), about making the most out of caterpillar tunnels. After that, Cornell Extension Specialist Judson Reid joins me to talk about avoiding and managing toxic levels of soil nutrients in greenhouses.

In fact, I figure that the longer that my tomatoes can spend in a heated propagation house, the better they are. One of the tricks of greenhouse growers that I talk about in the book is just growing a bigger transplant. So I can keep them in a heated structure where they're going to be happy until those temperatures do moderate. That's Andrew Meffert, author of a fantastic book about hoop house and greenhouse production for vegetable growers. And this is a new season of the Ruminant Podcast. The Ruminant is a website and podcast that wonders what good farming looks like. You can find out more at theruminant.ca. And you can contact me at ruminantblog on Twitter and editor at theruminant.ca.

All right, let's do a show. So Jordan, where you been buddy? Good question, everyone. So yeah, last year got away on me a bit. And to be honest, I wasn't that surprised. Last February, February 2017, my wife and I had our first child. And that happened in the same year that I moved farms and was starting out there on a whole lot more land. So it came as not a big surprise when I just couldn't find the time to produce the podcast. And I'm

sorry about that, but not like too sorry, you know? I just couldn't do it, so I didn't do it. But now I can do it, so I'm gonna do it. I thank those who have stuck with me in terms of keeping my podcast in your podcast feed. And I've got a good lucky feeling about the season to come. I've already got about, I don't know, six or seven episodes in the bag and a bunch more lined up. And I think I figured out a way that I can keep this going well into the spring, if not the summer. Now, there's more I have to update you about,

but I think I will just roll out those updates slowly over the next few episodes. So let's just move on to the subject of today's episode. And that is greenhouse production. A year ago, not quite a year ago, I had the opportunity to speak with Andrew Mefford, who is the editor of Growing for Market, which is a really good trade publication for market gardeners, if you haven't checked that out. And Andrew also, over the course of his farming career, has built up a ton of expertise on what he calls protected culture, really what I think most European growers call protected culture, growing under hoops and other structures, essentially. Anyway, Andrew wrote, published a

book early last year. It's called The Greenhouse and Hoophouse Grower's Handbook. And I talked to him sometime last spring and the whole intention was to get that episode up. But of course, by then I had stopped being able to produce the show. So here we are. Here's what I can tell you though. I own the book. The publisher was kind enough to send me one in preparation for the interview. And it is one of, one of the best resources I currently own. I think as far as, uh, as far as improving my knowledge on the farm and in terms of its potential to increase my profit margin, I really, really have enjoyed reading and rereading this book. And I strongly suggest anyone who wants to get into hoop house or greenhouse production, or just improve the production already doing that they check this thing out.

So that's guest number one, I had Andrew on and we talked a little bit about just one sliver of what's in his fantastic book. More recently, I had the chance to talk to an extension specialist out at Cornell called Judson Reed. And Judson has got a long background in agriculture and he kind of wears a few different hats in his extension position. But one of those hats is on protected culture on greenhouse and hoop house production. And I talked to him just a few days ago, and we had a really great chat about something I hadn't thought a lot about before, which is managing your greenhouse soil properly, so that you don't throw the nutrient balance and the acidity or pH of your soil out of balance as you grow crop after crop in the same piece of covered soil. I learned a lot from Justin,

I think you will too. And so he's coming up second in this episode. But first, my conversation with Andrew Mefford. I hope you like it. And I'll be talking to you at the end of the show. Andrew Mefford, thanks a lot for joining me on the Ruminant Podcast. Thanks so much for having me, Jordan. It's a pleasure. Andrew, I just want to start by congratulating you on publishing this book.

I've had a good look at it. It's a beautiful book, an informative book, and I think it's going to help a lot of growers. I think where I want to start is not focused on the technical aspects of the book, which it makes up the majority of the book. I'm actually really curious to ask you about the start of the book. I was surprised to see how you started the book. In the introduction, you make a case for growers, particularly small-scale growers, embracing what you call protected culture, so that, well, to improve food security and to take on big, big agriculture.

I was surprised the book to start that way, and it was kind of refreshing. Yeah, can you talk a little bit about why you started the book that way? Yeah, sure. you started the book that way? Yeah, sure. Only something like 1% of the food consumed in our country is coming from local agriculture. And so I think that that's an unlimited growth market pretty much. If you look at local ag having 1% of the total market share, that should be seen as an opportunity. It means that local producers have 99% growth room. And one of the most obvious ways for me to grow is just to extend the season. That's why I'm so enthusiastic about what I call protected culture in the book, which is, I mean, greenhouses and troop houses.

in the book, which is, I mean, Greenhouses and Hoophouses. And the reason I think this book is important is because what I was able to do with Johnny's is that I got in touch with a lot of researchers at universities and seed companies and larger commercial growers using techniques that I had never seen before. And they were just so much more efficient in high production than the techniques that I had been exposed to when I was apprenticing and learning. And what I realized is that most of the farms that I worked on, almost every farm that I worked on had a greenhouse or a hoop house, some of both. But what they were doing was more like field style growing in a greenhouse or hoop house. And I realized that these larger commercial growers had a totally different style of growing that was really tailored to specialized techniques in greenhouse or

hoop house. And so after I was exposed to those techniques, what it made me wonder was how applicable they were to smaller farms. Essentially what I did was I tried out these more high-tech techniques in my hoop house and in the trials at Johnny's, and I found they worked really well. So that's why I wanted to write the book, to expose smaller growers to these specialized greenhouse techniques, which in my experience they were not using. If you think about it, almost any local area has some limitation on seasonality, right? I mean, there might be some really choice areas, coastal areas or something, that have an almost unlimited season. But almost anywhere, almost anywhere you're growing is either going to be limited by being too hot or too cold. And what I see protected culture doing is it makes the season longer. So to me, putting greenhouses and hoop houses up on small farms is extending local food

season. Well, Andrew, thank you for that. And I think what you've done, I think this is going to be a game changer. And we're going to get on to some of what you've covered in a minute. But when reading your book, it becomes apparent just how complex doing protected culture well is. And I found it reassuring to know that you started from a place of, you alluded to this earlier, but a very, very little experience. I mean, your early experiences working with, you know,

having your own hoop houses in Maine were a far cry, it seems to me, from how you do things now. And I think that could provide a little bit of optimism or hope for people who are struggling with protected culture. Oh, yeah. I would encourage people to, you know, if they're thinking about putting up a greenhouse or a hoop house, to go ahead and do it. Because on the one hand, like you said, Jordan, it can be very complicated. On the other hand, you can get up to speed very quickly on it. If you try this stuff out on your own farm, you can get through the least advanced stuff.

You can get through the beginner stages pretty fast, and then you're going to be wanting more. And so once again, instead of doing like a beginner hoop house book and an advanced hoop house book i thought it was it was a lot better just to throw it all in there let people read the book and and and let them decide how much of it they want to do what i think what i say in the book is that i want it to be like an a la carte menu of techniques and ideas, you know. I want this to be a tool that growers can use to develop their own style of growing. I think you've achieved that, Andrew. I can say that you've written the book in a way that allows growers like me to just pick and choose, and even if I just want to make incremental improvements.

And you know, one chapter I'm really grateful for that, you know, didn't need to be in there if you hadn't been thinking of, uh, you know, the, the, the beginners, uh, is, is your, is your chapter on protected culture plant basics. I was so grateful for that, Andrew. I'm a little bit ashamed to say this as a grower with six years experience, but you know, I haven't focused a lot on, on just like learning the pretty, like just the basics of plant, uh, of photosynthesis, transpiration, and respiration. And you provide a really useful chapter that breaks that down. Uh, and I think one reason I'm not, I'm, I'm saying that out loud, uh, is because I know there's, there's probably tons of other small scale growers like me who are doing their

overall, their systems really well. Um, but, but somehow find themselves a few years into their business and they still don't really understand plant physiology all that well. Yeah, and you're not the first person that I've heard that from. I felt like I had to break it down there because in most of the things that you're doing with greenhouse growing, you're controlling either temperature or humidity or water or something else to influence one of those three things, respiration, transpiration, or photosynthesis. I thought, well, people need to understand why, if it's 100% humidity in their greenhouse, that the plants aren't going to transpire anymore. You know, we need to, I thought we need to break it down and talk about what you're really doing, you know, what you're really trying to manipulate about your plants.

And so, and I thought that was the most useful way because that's it. I don't want people just to sort of like read it and nod their head. You know, I want to understand, I want people to understand why they're doing what they're doing so they can go off and, you know, make their own temperature scheme or their own humidity scheme. You know, I'm trying to empower growers to make their own decisions and management styles, you know, not just read my book and do it because it was in the book. I want them to read it and do it because they understand it.

Andrew, for the rest of the interview, I just want to focus on just a couple of the topics that you cover in your book. And as you say, there's something in here for the beginner and the advanced protected culture grower. But I want to focus on the less experienced, particularly because a lot of my listeners are going to be small scale market gardeners and for whom like even $5,000 represents a big expense in their farm. And so one topic I'd like to have you cover is caterpillar tunnels, because they're a common first kind of step towards protected culture for growers who don't have big budgets. And I was wondering if you could kind of try and briefly summarize.

If we take a crop like tomatoes, how does a grower like me with a 100-foot caterpillar tunnel make the most of that caterpillar tunnel to grow decent tomatoes? Could you comment on that a little bit? Yeah, sure. grow decent tomatoes. Could you comment on that a little bit? Yeah, sure. My thoughts about how to get the most out of a caterpillar tunnel would be, you can look at the temperature recommendations in the book, for one thing, and some people think that, well, what good do these temperature recommendations do me because I can't control the temperature in a caterpillar tunnel?

Well, that's true, but you can control when the plants go into the caterpillar tunnel. So, you know, my idea is that you could look in the book and see what the minimum temperature is for tomatoes, for your example, Jordan. So look at the minimum temperature and just try and plant your tomatoes after that temperature, that minimum temperature is achieved in your area. One example from my experience, Jordan, is when I first started growing in hoop houses, I was just so eager to put my plants out there. You know, I would just watch the weather forecast, and the first week that temperatures were solidly out of freezing, I would go out and plant my tomatoes. And two things would happen. Well, the first thing is that they would, of course, revise that weather forecast as soon as I planted the tomatoes back into freezing weather.

And so I'd end up just biting my nails, worrying that my tomatoes were going to get killed. And I just had a lot of seconds. I had a lot of cat-faced fruit and a lot of messed up fruit and disease at the beginning of the season. And at that point, what I didn't realize was that not only do tomatoes not want to be in freezing weather, they don't want to be anywhere near those kinds of temperatures. And so one of the manifestations of that was the cat-facing. What happens when tomato blossoms are exposed to temperatures that are much colder than they want to be exposed to,

the developing tissue in the flower starts sticking to itself, and it doesn't develop properly. And that's why we get cat-facing. So cat-facing being all kinds of sort of weird puckering and deformities and openings in the skin. And another thing we get is zippering. It's these long scars that run along with a tomato that look kind of like a zipper. They're long and skinny with little dots on them almost that look kind of like a zipper. And so that's one thing a lot of growers don't understand is that planting their tomatoes when it's too cold leaves all these deformities. And so people say, well, my tomatoes were deformed at the beginning

of the season and then they grew out of it. And I mean, technically that's true. But what really happened is that the temperatures came up into a temperature range where they weren't getting deformities anymore. And so my best recommendation, you know, what I started doing was just being patient. I don't, I'm not chomping at the bit to plant my tomatoes out there as soon as possible anymore. In fact, I figure that the longer that my tomatoes can spend in a heated propagation house, the better they are. One of the tricks of greenhouse growers that I talk about in the book is just growing a bigger transplant. Because any of these vining fruiting crops, this applies to tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, and eggplant. To go back to your example, Jordan, tomatoes in protected culture are

coddled. Even if you don't have a fancy hoop house or greenhouse, even just in a caterpillar tunnel, your tomatoes are being exposed to less wind and it keeps the rain off. And they're just a little bit more protected than out in the field. And so you can let the plants get bigger because if you think about it, one of the reasons you might not want to plant a really huge tomato plant out in the field is because they're going to get blown around by the wind and beat up by the weather, whereas they're protected in a caterpillar tunnel.

So what I've gone to doing is just waiting until temperatures have moderated. I start my seeds at the same time. I just let the plants get bigger, and that requires some planning, ideally, because you would have some bigger pots on hand, right? So I plant my tomato plants at least up into a quart-sized container now. And, in fact, a lot of times I'll put a little like a shish kebab skewer by the plants and I'll rubber band the plant to that shish kebab skewer because I'm letting them get so big that they would probably start flopping over. them in a heated structure, in my case, my propagation greenhouse, right? So I can keep them in a heated structure where they're going to be happy until those temperatures do moderate. And so those would be my suggestions if you just have a very simple caterpillar tunnel

is to grow a big plant, graft. I mean, grafting is one thing. I spent a lot of time on the book, largely because I got tons of questions about that when I was working at Johnny's. I mean, grafting actually is a great example of a technology that you actually get more out of when you're in a less, I'll say a less optimized situation. So by that, I mean, grafting is a technology that has greater returns the less sophisticated your operation is. Because one of the things that grafting does is it helps the plant overcome adversity.

So if your soil isn't as fertile as it should be or isn't perfectly fertilized, if your temperatures are too cold or too hot, even things like soil salinity, almost all of the adversity that your crop might encounter grafting. Grafting basically, you know, the quick and dirty way to explain it is grafting gives your plant a stronger constitution. And so in fairly, in hoop houses actually, I did a lot of trials with grafted plants when I was at John Eason. In most of the sort of unheated troop houses, organic types of situations that I was working in, I would see a 30% to 50% yield increase on the grafted plants over the same variety that's not grafted.

And by comparison, if you go into a big greenhouse that's probably even hydroponic, they're getting more like 10%. And what's going on there is that they've already optimized so many of the conditions that grafting is just the cherry on top. You know, grafting is the icing on the cake. They're already getting an enormous yield. So to add 10% onto an enormous yield is a big 10%. But actually, I would say a smaller scale organic grower is usually going to get a bigger

boost than a larger commercial grower would out of grafting because their situation is less optimized and grafting because their situation is less optimized and grafting helps to overcome that. So those would be my suggestions to graft and to also manage temperature as well as you possibly can. For example, be vigilant about if the caterpillar tunnel, about pushing up those sides. I know a lot of caterpillar tunnels that have the lacing over top of the tunnel. You have to get out there and actually push the plastic up and down.

I would say that if you can at all afford it, if you're going to build a caterpillar tunnel anyway, you should invest in roll-up sides. And the reason being, temperature management is so important if it's easy to do and it's quicker to do you're going to do it more often right and some of those things you think you might think well it's not that big of a deal to get out there and push the plastic up but most of the caterpillar tunnels i've seen you have to actually go there between each each set of hoops and push push the plastic up.

So you end up having to do it, I don't know, 10 or 20 times a side, depending on how long your caterpillar tunnel is. And so if it's a day where it's getting sunny and then getting cloudy and sunny again, you're not going to be inclined to run over there every time the weather changes and roll the sides up or down, especially if you're off in the back 40 doing something else. So, you know, that's one of the things that I learned from big greenhouses is invest in equipment that makes you more efficient because you're going to get more done.

And so your plants are going to be a lot healthier if you are rolling the sides up or down for ventilation when you really should. So those would be my broadest suggestion for someone with a caterpillar tunnel is use the temperature recommendations, graft some tomato plants, and invest in roll-up sites. And I think those are the things that should help you get more out of the caterpillar tunnel. Great, Andrew. And can you just talk generally about, I guess, because here's another one I think that a lot of growers like me kind of don't fully appreciate, is the vast yield improvements when you plant super densely,

as well as when you really focus on proper pruning. Can you speak to those two things? Oh, yeah, sure. In fact, if I could summarize what the difference is between greenhouse-type planting and field style, the most basic difference is denser planting. And I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like that is the basis of getting more plants into your structure. Of course, I mean, it's obvious. You put more plants in, you're going to get more yield. But what's not obvious is the changes that you have to make to make that happen of more plants being healthy.

And so the most basic thing is to plant particularly we're talking the vining crops like tomatoes you know basically if you can get more more plants into your your precious protected real estate you're going to get a higher yield but then you have to keep them healthy and so the most the most basic way to get more of the vining crops into a structure is to plant in double rows instead of single rows. In the book, I have suggested layouts and plant densities for each crop. But the basic on that is what I see most smaller growers doing is planting a single row down the middle of a bed. What I see most smaller growers doing is planting a single row down the middle of a bed. And if you plant two rows in that bed, you're going to have half the space devoted to pathway,

and you're going to get a lot more plants in. Of course, you're also going to have less airflow, so that's why the pruning is so important because one of the things that you can do to make up for the denser planting is just to prune more and so particularly in tomatoes and eggplants my recommendation is to is to take all the leaves off below the developing fruit clusters and then what that that does is it opens up airflow down at the base of the plant where things tend to be the most humid and the airflow tends to be the worst. And the other thing that that does is those leaves are going to be the first ones to get infected. And anybody who's grown even just a field tomato crop, where does the disease

come from? It starts on the lower leaves and tends to spread up the plant. So if you take the leaves off proactively before they get diseased, they can't really harbor the disease to travel at the plant. So these are the kinds of things that I'm trying to talk about and help people decide what management style suits them. Well, Andrew Mefford, you've written a great book. I think, like I said at the start, I think it's going to help a lot of growers. I'm certainly grateful that I now have a copy. So thank you for making this effort to improve the results of people growing in protected culture. And thanks a lot for joining me on the Ruminant Podcast. Yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me, Jordan. It was a blast.

Hello, yeah. This is Judson Reed. I am a senior extension associate with Cornell University senior extension associate with Cornell University in New York State. My ag background, well, I grew up on a 220-acre farm in New York State. From there, I earned undergraduate and graduate degrees in agriculture from Cornell University and went on to work for the university in a research extension and administrative capacity. Professionally, my agricultural interests are around season extension. So I do a lot of work researching nutrient management inside enclosed settings and as well as pest management, natural pest management in those settings as well. Judson Reed, thanks a lot for joining me on the Ruminant Podcast. You're welcome, Jordan. Thank you very much for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

Judson, as an extension specialist at Cornell, I know you have a large focus on season extension and hoop house and greenhouse production. And I also noticed that you conduct a lot of site visits to farms in New York State. And I thought I would start by asking you if you encounter any common mistakes that prevent some farmers from maximizing their revenues in their hoop houses and greenhouses. Sure, great question, Jordan.

So I think the most common mistake is to, in a sense, look at what are the above-ground management practices and benefits that come from season extension technologies, whether that's an inexpensive cold frame or hoop house or all the way up to more advanced technologies, is the above-ground portion of that. I think farmers see the benefits and they manage the crop intensively above ground. And then I think what's going on below ground, which is a little bit less intuitive, less visual, is the most common mistake is that we turn a blind eye to what are the long-term. And the early years that people enter into this, and here in the northeastern U.S., there's been a real rapid entry into this type of production for a number of reasons.

And in the first few years, I think farmers see a lot of benefits. They see increased yields, increased crop health, hopefully decreased diseases. And then as they're realizing those benefits above ground, they're not seeing what is going on below ground in terms of, say I just didn't expect you to say that. And perhaps I didn't because I'm in my first few years of tunnel production and maybe haven't started to see some of those problems crop up. So that's terrific. Let's dive into that a little bit then. So once some of those problems begin to accrue, what are some of those problems and how do they end up presenting themselves? I think the first thing you have to do is take a look at the soil with a soil test and work with whoever, whatever lab that you like to work with or university in your state or province and get an accurate reading of what's going on there in the soil. And if you're early on in this cycle, let's say you're in year zero, one or two, you're in a better position to prevent problems from happening. And if you're further down the line, at least now we need to, like I say, admit that we have a problem, identify what that problem is. And so the common ones are generally phosphorus levels tend to be elevated in these settings over time, as well as calcium, magnesium,

and pH. All of those levels tend to become too elevated over time. And then that interferes with uptake of some other nutrients, the standouts being potassium. And then a micronutrient that probably a lot of people don't give a lot of thought, manganese, would be another common victim of the really high levels we find in some of those other macronutrients or secondary nutrients. So, Justin, can I interrupt you for a moment and just clarify? Please do. I assume you're talking about these problems being kind of specific to indoor production. Like, is that what you're getting at, that some of these concentrations are building up in ways that don't happen as quickly outdoors?

Absolutely. That's a great question, Jordan. So they are specific to indoor production for several reasons. One is that we're increasing the yield potential of the crop when it's inside, whatever that is, tomatoes, cucumbers, greens, peppers, eggplants, et cetera. And so since the yield potential is higher because we're adding growing degree days or heat units, we're decreasing wind, we're decreasing pest pressure, we're extending the season, et cetera, the yield potential is higher, which means that the nutrient demand is higher for that crop. And nitrogen, generally regarded as the most limiting nutrient for yield potential.

And so to meet the nitrogen requirement of these crops, we oftentimes add other nutrients at levels that we don't need to. And so phosphorus is a good example of that. If we take a general use fertilizer, say a triple 20, which is 20% nitrogen, 20% phosphorus, and 20% potassium, we're adding that to the system based on the nitrogen demand of the crop. But the nitrogen and phosphorus are there in a one-to-one ratio, and that doesn't need to be the case. And so then that phosphorus accumulates over time because the plant only uses a fraction of the amount of phosphorus as it does of nitrogen. And so that happens more inside than outside, again, because simply the nitrogen demand is higher.

The other inside versus outside question example I'll use is calcium. So calcium, we need that in ample supply, particularly for fruiting vegetables and leafy greens, for that matter, to produce a viable crop with good quality. However, oftentimes there's hidden sources of calcium, particularly in our irrigation water. And so through what we call calcium bicarbonate or alkalinity. Now as that calcium bicarbonate or alkalinity, really it's a form of liquid lime. And I think most farmers and gardeners are familiar with lime and its ability to raise pH and raise calcium levels in our native soils. However, we're oftentimes adding a liquid lime unbeknownst in our irrigation water. And since we're growing inside, we have no rainfall.

The crop depends entirely upon the irrigation water that we provide. And our irrigation water oftentimes, not always, it depends on where you are, but oftentimes is high in bicarbonates. And so that means that calcium accumulates over time inside, and there's no rain or snow to leach through the soil profile and decrease those levels of calcium. or snow to leach through the soil profile and decrease those levels of calcium. Right. And I had a feeling you were going to talk about the lack of natural water flowing through the system. So I'm wondering, are you a huge advocate for mobile hoop houses? Or given that that's not a reality for a lot of farmers, do you just make recommendations for how to avoid these buildups? Or is it both?

Well, yeah, Jordan, you're really driving into the heart of the question there, which is there needs to be some sort of way to prevent or solve that problem. And mobile structures are certainly one option. are certainly one option. And so I think if people can have a movable hoop house, that really resolves a lot of the issues that we're seeing. I see the movable structures, the most successful ones I see are movable, but not easily movable. And so I'm talking about the type of structure that sits in one spot for maybe two years and then can be moved with some effort onto a fresh piece of ground that hopefully has had a cover crop, say clover or alfalfa, depending on what you can grow where you are. And then we, of course, incorporate that and then grow in that new space. And so those semi-movable structures or structures that are moved but not easily, for me,

offer the most appeal in that I see, my experience is that the structures that move on tracks or wheels or casters are fairly susceptible to wind damage. And then the other management problem I see is that the movable structure is really not so much about soil health or avoiding those nutrient problems I mentioned. It's more about providing some sort of season extension or protection to multiple crops throughout a calendar year. And so now you're adding another management paradigm there, which is when does the crop that is not covered need to be covered? And when that crop needs to be covered, is the other one ready to be uncovered? And that may or may not be the case. And so if people who have movable tunnels could move away from the paradigm of trying to provide benefit to multiple crops within the same calendar year in different spaces and use them more for keeping the soil balanced nutrient-wise, that is where I would like to see things go.

Well, it almost, I mean, this is a problem that comes up in other aspects of farming. It just almost sounds like you're suggesting that there's a case to be made that if you instead, if you're going to be a mobile greenhouse person, if you instead focus, make it more about the soil health, you'll be better off in the long term. Yeah, I agree with you, Jordan. That would be my point of view. And oftentimes, the second crop you see oftentimes is a combination of a fruiting vegetable and then a greens crop.

And the greens crops, say spinach or Swiss chard or kale or any one of those, which are naturally very cold tolerant, I would say, is there another way that we could grow this if we have a market demand for that on another part of the farm with other season extension technologies, such as low tunnels or row covers or things of this nature? And it depends on where you are or have multiple structures. But I do think that you're right, Jordan, in that having a movable structure that allows precipitation to move through the soil profile on an annual basis would be a benefit. My concern is that farmers are placing themselves at a little bit higher risk for property damage with wind turning those structures over or moving them around.

I've seen that fairly often. turning those structures over or moving them around. I've seen that fairly often. Well, I'm glad we touched on the mobile stuff, but I would like to spend the rest of this topic focused on those with immobile hoop house structures, if that's all right with you. Sure, absolutely. Okay, so I don't think I want to,

I'm going to try not to cover much more new territory because there's a lot we can unpack with what you've already said. So one, let's maybe, do you have any comments to make about irrigation water and how to deal with that?, let's maybe, do you have any comments to make about, about irrigation water and how to deal with that? So let's say you're someone who I have a feeling you'll say, well, do a water test, but so let's say maybe we'll start there. You've done a water

test and you, you do find that you have high levels of calcium carbonate. Is there anything that can be done? Absolutely. Great question. So what we can do is acidify that water then, Great question. So what we can do is acidify that water then, which breaks up those bicarbonates and gets our water pH and alkalinity down to levels that work and prevent the long-term problems. flower growers are very familiar with this because say hanging baskets of petunias need to be generally need to have their irrigation water acidified but vegetable growers aren't quite as familiar with the this approach it is fairly simple so you're right you start with a water test and then once you have a known pH and alkalinity, we can inject acid. And that acid can be one of several types. It could be the most common ones in conventional agriculture are going to be sulfuric acid or phosphoric acid. And so I already mentioned that phosphorus tends to be something that's accumulating in soils over time.

So it would tend to favor sulfuric acid for that reason. For those that are certified organic, we are generally looking at a food-grade citric acid that ideally would be acceptable for organic standards. And we inject that also at a rate that is going to lower our pH and alkalinity, disassociate those bicarbonates in the water. It's fairly simple technology. You can do this with a water-driven pump injector that siphons the acid into the irrigation water at a constant proportion. So it doesn't matter how long we leave our irrigation system on, the water coming out through that system is going to be acidified to an acceptable

level. Justin, is there a reason why you're first recommending this irrigation injection rather than adding a dry version of one of these products to the soil? I mean, right away, I can see that the appeal of being able to set the rate at which it adds it to the water. So effectively, you're just balancing your pH in the water. But is there any other reason to strongly consider injection over amending the soil in the hoop house? rejection over, you know, sprinkling, amending the soil in the hoop house? No, I think, I think you, I think you have a good point there, Jordan, that this is really not an either or situation. It's ideally a bull situation. So my approach would be, ideally, we take a soil test in the fall. I feel like in the, in the fall of the year, in northern climates, this might be

different in southern climates, but in northern climates, this might be different in southern climates, but in northern climates, that is when it's a good idea to take a soil sample so the soil is warm, it's still biologically active, we can get a decent assessment of what's going on there. And it also allows us time to apply any amendments before spring growing season if we can. And so generally what we're looking to apply is sulfur. And so an elemental sulfur can be applied in the fall after a soil test to lower that pH. And then this water acidification that I'm talking about really is not going to turn a problem soil around. It's going to prevent a problem from getting worse. So of those two approaches, applying elemental sulfur in a dry form is going to have more

potential to lower a pH than acidifying water. I'd like to see those two approaches used hand in hand. Okay. And then so that you kind of went right into the my the other part of my question which was just based on the soil test um you know where to go from there you've kind of made one suggestion with the sulfur i imagine if you do have high levels of say phosphorus and potassium it's about not just going for that general 20-20-20, but getting more specific with a higher N ratio and lower PK ratios. Yeah, so you're correct. So then we begin to have an educated approach to this.

It's really fairly simple. What we're doing is making decisions based on information, the information of what levels those nutrients are in the soil and what levels do the crop needs. And in general, it's going to be a nitrogen and potassium approach. We're probably going to be able to reduce or eliminate any phosphorus applications in our experience. And again, this comes from having visited hundreds of farms that fairly consistently we are looking at nitrogen, potassium, and then sulfur as our major inputs once we're two or three years into this production system. There are exceptions to that. And there are a lot of fantastic guidelines that will tell you how much of those nutrients to use.

But bear in mind that for your fruiting vegetables, particularly tomatoes, over time potassium is going to be needed at a higher level than nitrogen as we move into a harvest stage for that crop. Judson, we've talked about testing the water and the reasons for that and testing the soil and the reasons for that. testing the water and the reasons for that and testing the soil and the reasons for that. Is that it as far as taking stock of what's going on? Or is there any other testing we should be thinking about along these lines? Right. Great question, Jordan. So what we want to do is couple that soil testing and amendments and water testing and adjustment with acid with foliar testing. and adjustment with acid with foliar testing. So foliar testing, what we're doing is taking the youngest fully mature leaf from the crop.

So what that means is the youngest piece of foliage that has reached its maximum size. And then we're sending that into a lab for analysis. And then that will come back and tell us where are we with all those nutrients. So just how well is the plant able to access the nutrients that we know are in the soil? And then we can begin to make some micro adjustments in season. Do we need to now add, for example, more potassium? Magnesium oftentimes is one that comes back as being deficient in season. Can we make some foliar applications of that to correct an imbalance? The only way we can know for sure is through foliar testing. And the benefit to foliar testing is that it allows us to detect deficiencies or possible toxicities in the crop before we see them visually. So oftentimes,

deficiencies or possible toxicities in the crop before we see them visually. So oftentimes, as growers, we wait until a plant appears to be pale, and then we begin to try to decipher what is wrong with this. What nutrient are we lacking? But if we do regular foliar testing, say every two to three weeks in season, we detect those problems before they happen. And then we prevent things such as flower drop or low yields due to low nutrients. That makes me want to ask you this, Judson. In New York State, if I'm a grower there, what is the turnaround time for a typical foliar test? If I send that leaf in, how quickly can I

get those results? I would say that we should be able to expect that within a work week. So it depends on which lab you work with. The ones I've worked with, if we can get that out on a Monday, hopefully we can get those results back via email on a Friday. Wow. So just so I can understand you, to make sure I understand what the foliar test can be used for, is it the kind of thing where before tomatoes are starting to ripen up, like still, you know, still in the spring, if I take that leaf sample and send it away, can it help me realize that I'm low on

calcium and maybe I could prevent some blossom end rot, for example? Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? That's exactly what I'm talking about, Jordan, is seeing those problems before they manifest themselves and then making corrections in season. Judson, I'm going to try one more thing on you as our time winds down here. It's a more abstract question and it's okay to say I don't know how to answer that other than you're a bad farmer, Jordan. But it's interesting being a podcaster and covering these topics because I like to think, and I think I've demonstrated in this interview,

I have a decent literacy of this stuff. But what might surprise lots of my listeners, and this goes for so many topics I cover, is it doesn't necessarily translate into a perfect looking garden. In other words, I have a hard time going from the conceptual level, and I grasp the stuff, it's not that I don't understand it, to execution. I'm not looking for you to stroke my ego or reassure me. I am just wondering how common you think that is, where know, where farmers get it, but, and yet they can't execute?

Oh, interesting question. Well, I think Jordan, you're, you're probably a very good company and, um, that rarely are things the way we wish they were. Um, and for myself, that can be particularly bitter because I can see exactly what I've done wrong and where I should have done something. Farming, it's really not a question of, I think, successful farmers or growers or gardeners, it's, how can I put this? Let me back up for a second. Oftentimes what I tell people is that success in farming is about doing the right thing at the right time. And that is deceptively simple. And I see that as probably where most people fall short is they do the right thing, but they do it a week or two later than they should. Controlling weeds, that's a fantastic example. weeds, whether we do that through some sort of cultivation or mowing or herbicide application,

whatever it is, that's a classic example of if we do that too late, even if we've controlled those weeds, we've already lost yield. So I think in terms of this question of execution, it's a matter of, and I agree with you, I think you have a general grasp of here's what I need to do. And most farmers that I work with also probably have that knowledge. Where people fall short is getting it done at the right time. What else can I say about that? And I'm as guilty of that as anyone. Um, what else can I say about that? And I'm as guilty as that as anyone. Um, and so what that means for, for us is that we have to accept that things will not be the way we wish they were at times, but in season creating in a sense, a triage list, a list of priorities for every day, every week. And that, since we're, this is a biological

system, it's a dynamic system, it's probably best to do that on a daily basis because things change. Temperature, precipitation, plant growth, pest presence, maybe market conditions change, etc. on a daily basis. And so having a triage list, I hate to put it that dramatically, but having a list of what absolutely has to be done today and getting that done gets us closer to that objective of doing the right thing at the right time, whether it's fertility, whether it's pest management, whether it's pruning, training, weed control, et cetera. management, whether it's pruning, training, weed control, et cetera. That's great. That's great. That's great advice, Judson. And, uh, as you were,

as you were saying that I was being, I was being like lulled into fantasies about the coming season. And I think, I think if something doesn't work out as an extension specialist, you could, you could cross right over into therapy. You know, you've got, you're clearly thoughtful and you've got, I think you've got the right voice for it. Um, and I know I, what I do is therapy. You know, you've got your, you're clearly thoughtful and you've got, I think you've got the right voice for it. Um, and I know I, what I do is therapy. It is a form of therapy. Uh, but, uh, uh, at any rate, Judson, um, I'm really grateful that you were able to take time away from a busy schedule to join me on the podcast. And I think my listeners will be very

appreciative of, of what you've shared today. So thank you very much. Thank you, Jordan. It was an honor to be asked to do this. Today I learned I don't need anything to live on. All right. Episode one of 2018 in the bag. So just to remind you folks, you can find Andrew Mefford's book, well, online, if nowhere else. It's called The Greenhouse and Hoophouse Growers Handbook. And if you want to find out more about what Judson Reed is doing, just Google him. Judson Reed and Cornell, and you'll find him. That's about it for this episode.

Next week, I'm most likely to feature an interesting conversation I had with a friend of mine, which represents a bit of a follow-up to the very popular episode that I had last year that I co-produced with Jessica Gale on farmer mental health. So for those of you who liked that episode, you may want to make a point of listening next week. All right, goodbye until next time. I missed you all. And I am sorry that I went AWOL for quite a while. Talk to you soon. Oh, I almost forgot. I received another recording from Ted from Alberta. This time it seems like maybe he's doing his taxes.

It kind of sounds like one of those printing calculators. He's calculating something anyway. So yeah, you have that to look forward to right now. I don't need a big old house or some fancy car to keep my love going strong so we'll run right out into the wilds and braces we'll keep close quarters with gentle faces and live next door to the birds and the bees And live life like it was meant to be Do do do do do do Do do do do do do