The Ruminant: Audio Candy for Farmers, Gardeners and Food Lovers - The Very First One. It's about potting blocks!

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

The interview we planned to record yesterday and release today was postponed, so I dug up the very first episode of the show, from way back in 2012, until now never released on the newer podcast feed. It's an interview with Jason Beam about potting blocks, you lucky ducks. We'll be back with a new episode in two weeks, promise.

Hey everybody, it's Jordan. So here's the deal. We had a guest booked to give us an interview yesterday morning, which would have given us enough time for some quick editing and then a release of a brand new episode today. But that guest had to reschedule somewhat last minute and so we aren't going to have that interview available and we don't have any other brand new material to release today. So Philippa and I agreed that I would put out an older episode and I have selected the first ever episode of the Ruminant podcast from way back in. From way back in, it looks like 2012. I have not had time to re-listen to it um it's about potting blocks it's an interview with a guy called jason beam who used to have a website called pottingblocks.com where you could find lots of advice for making uh potting blocks otherwise known as soil blocks those freestanding uh blocks used to grow seedlings instead of standard 10-20 trays.

A lot of you are still using potting blocks. I still use potting blocks in some contexts. So maybe there's some useful info buried in here. Who knows? But really, I just thought it would be fun to share this lost episode that you otherwise couldn't find until now on the main podcast feed. Back then when I started, well, I sounded different. I've listened to the first couple minutes, so that I can say.

But I also didn't have a proper logo. I just went into Microsoft Paint and made a square that said the ruminant podcast period in red on white. I don't remember exactly when I went and had the logo made with the pence of bovine, but I certainly didn't have it in place when things started. Anyway, in two weeks on our next release date, we will have a brand new episode for you. And until then, I hope this will tide at least some of you over. I noticed when I went and found this episode that there are just a few more that have never been shared on the Modern Podcast feed that perhaps I'll find a way to share in the next few months. I mean, for the record, they're all available in secret spots online.

That's where I went and found this. I don't even know where I have these old episodes stored on like my own hard drives they're just hidden in my house somewhere but there are secret spots online where you can go and find these old old old episodes of the ruminant all right okay here we go this is about an hour long Jason Beam thanks for giving me an interview in 2012. I noticed that pottingblocks.com is not a thing anymore, and I hope it's because you retired on a sweet, sweet potting blocks fortune. Okay, I guess maybe I'll talk to you at the end, everybody. Hello, I'm Jordan Marr, and this is the inaugural episode of the Ruminant Podcast. Thanks for tuning in. I'm really excited to try this out. I've been wanting to do a podcast for a while. I think I've got some pretty good ideas to put into a farming podcast. And I'm really excited to see where this

goes. For those who have found this on iTunes, I'll just briefly mention that for about a year and a half now, I've been running a website called theruminant.ca and it's devoted to creating a space for farmers to share good ideas about farming. So one of its main functions is I accept photos of your farming techniques and tools that I'll put up on the blog to share with other farmers. So I can talk maybe a little bit more about that in future episodes. But for now, I'd just like to get going on today's first show. So one thing I'm going to try to include in most episodes of the ruminant podcast is a segment in which I will bring together an expert on a given farming skill, and a novice at that skill who has had at least a little bit of experience

attempting to learn this new skill. The idea is that before you actually try a skill on the farm or in the garden, there's only so much you can know just by reading up on that skill. It's not until you've done it for a little bit that you start to realize all the questions that you have unanswered. And that's when it becomes really handy to talk to someone who really knows that skill quite well. And hopefully that'll result in a conversation that will benefit any listeners who want to take on the skill themselves. In today's episode, I'm going to be talking with Jason Beam about potting blocks. Jason is the owner-operator of a website called pottingblocks.com where you can find just about everything you need to know about using potting blocks in your garden, in your nursery that is, to transplant into your garden. In this case, I won't have a third person in on the conversation because I'll be acting as the novice in the interview.

novice in the interview. My partner Vanessa and I became interested in soil blocks a couple years ago and last year we for the first time we we used them in our nursery to some success but we we had some challenges as well and and so when I was I was excited to talk to Jason about some of the problems we encountered and to see what he had to say about them. So I won't say too much more other than it's a very long interview. It's almost an hour. And if you're interested in just skipping the certain parts of the interview, if you go to my website, theruminant.ca, I've broken down the different topics that we cover in the interview so that you can quickly jump around to the specific topics on potting blocks that you'd like to listen to.

I think I'm really excited. There's more to come for sure with this podcast. But for now, this episode just features my interview with Jason Beam. And let's do it up. Let's get started. Hello, Jason. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Hello, Jordan. Thank you for having me.

Well, I've been really excited to talk to you. My partner, Vanessa, and I started seriously producing soil blocks for our market garden here in British Columbia at the beginning of 2011. So I thought I'd start today by just telling you how I got into producing soil blocks, because I have a feeling it's similar to how a lot of people do. into producing soil blocks because I have a feeling it's similar to how a lot of people do. Back in, well, whatever, I'll just say a few years ago, I read Elliot Coleman's New Organic Grower for the first time. Before that, I didn't even know what soil blocks were, and I became fascinated by the idea. So during my first apprenticeship on a veggie garden, I assembled all the materials I could, and I made my first batch of potting blocks, and I have to say it went really badly.

And I was really discouraged, and the whole time my teacher on the farm was kind of indulging my interest in doing it, but she had tried it in a similar vein years before and had no luck, and so she figured that it would end badly. So that was kind of it on that farm. But I knew that it was probably because I wasn't doing it right, so I kind of kept it in the back of my head. And then once my partner Vanessa and I started our garden, it was a chance to try it right. So I kind of kept it in the back of my head. And then once my partner Vanessa and I started our garden, it was a chance to try it again. And we did so and had quite a bit more

success this time around. But I'm just wondering if, and I'll get to telling you a little bit more about last year on our farm, but I'm just wondering if that sounds familiar to you, that description of the first attempt at soil blocks? Yes, Jordan, that is very familiar, and we get a lot of that, and that is partly the reason for creating pottingblocks.com is after talking about how great these were, I realized there wasn't a lot of people that were getting the same results that I was, so that was partly the reason to create pottingblocks.com is to re-educate these people that have failed the first few times and were actually kind of saying potting blocks, soil blocks don't work.

Right. So before we get into some questions, now this segment is more focused on people who have done a little bit of soil blocking before or making potting blocks. But can you just very briefly describe what are soil or potting blocks? Well, soil blocks are a compressed cube of potting soil as a seed starting medium that does not have any pot. It's the potless pot. You compress wet potting soil into these prefabricated steel machines called the soil blocker, and they eject cubes of soil of different sizes for different needs in anywhere you want them,

and it's a freestanding solid completely perfect seed starting medium great that's a that's a pretty good description and um so now i think it's safe to say like that's the ideal and when a lot of people uh go and do it for the first time they don't find it to be a perfect seed starting uh medium so why do you think so many people are having trouble? What's the main mistake they're making? The main mistake, I think, is mindset, that this is a completely different way to start seeds. So if you've started them with a loose-filled dry potting soil just topping off into a plastic pot, the soil block mindset is absolutely completely different.

What we're doing is we're taking potting soil and we're turning it into a big pile of mud and then we're going to compress it as much as we can compress it into a cube and spit it out, and we're supposed to say, this is where we're supposed to start a seed? And I say, yes, this is exactly where do you start a seed. So it's mindset. If you go and say, well, this isn't going to work. I don't believe this is going to work.

Well, it might not work. But if you were like me, you said, I know this is going to work. So you work with the soils. You get them just right. You either make your own or you find the right soils. You go ahead and you just get crazy and you make it into a big pile of mud, and you squeeze it into that soil blocking machine and spit them out, and you just seed them and you just try it, and it works.

And that's what Vanessa and I have found with a little more effort. But I do think that probably our big mistake starting out was just not having the right mix, the right potting mix to start out, especially that first time. I didn't even go off-farm. I just looked at the recipe that Elliot Coleman suggested. I did my best to assemble the equivalent from what was around the farm and then went at it. And I think ultimately the mix I was using was just not the right one. So let's talk a little bit about the right mix.

Because am I right in thinking that's the most important thing, is making sure you have the right starting mix when you're about to make your soil blocks? You're absolutely correct. That is the most fundamental difference in soil blocking is that it has to have the right mix. Okay, so why don't you, do you mind talking about, just take me through it. What are the elements of an excellent soil blocking mix that is more likely to result in success with soil blocking? The most excellent results are a blend of peat moss and a blend of perlite and a blend of compost. And if these three ingredients are put in the right order, the right ratio, then you'll have a perfect soil block each and every time. Okay, so now you just named ingredients.

Those are all found in any typical potting mix that you buy from a nursery that you would normally use in plastic pots. So I know, you know, really really is the ratio of them that differs. So what can you explain how the ratio differs when, now I should say, Jason has some really specific instructions and recipes on his website and actually I've just, we've just started our first seedlings in the last couple of weeks and I'm using a recipe that Jason's recommended, and so far I've had good results. But, Jason, how does that ratio differ? What are you thinking about when you're –

what does anyone making soil blocks really need to think about as they're mixing it? Well, they have to realize that this is going to be a compressed medium. So that means that you can't have too much peat because peat will compress and it will inhibit the roots and the airflow in the soil block. So what would help the soil block? I call it bounce back a little bit, and that's perlite. Enough perlite to balance the peat is really essential. So not too much peat and enough perlite to give that bounce and that air that's going to be in the soil block that the plant is going to need since the soil has been compressed. And we find that perlite is the best. since the soil has been compressed, and we find that perlite is the best.

Okay. Now, last year when Vanessa and I did round two, and we had a lot of success last year. We had some challenges, too, but we weren't using perlite. We were using sand. And I know that you do say you can use sand on your site, but you really feel like perlite is better in that role. That's right. We do feel perlite better. Sand does work, and it takes some experimentation.

And sand is good for certain applications. And that would be like if you're having soil blocks or your seed starting section or your benches are outside, and what we've noticed is that sand adds a lot of weight to a soil block, and that's good for windy sites or sites that are drying out and it's windy and they weight down the block in the pans or in your benches. So it's sort of an application-specific, but for the most part, we don't like sand, and it doesn't create the ideal environment for the seed. And is all sand made equal, or if I'm going to use sand,

is there a certain kind of sand that I want to be looking for? If you're going to use sand, you want to make sure that it's been washed and it's a heavy grade, like a construction grade, coarse sand. A fine sand will turn your soil block into basically a block of concrete. You want to look for large, coarse, washed sand. You can find those at gravel yards. Ask for the large, coarse, washed sand. And the washing means that it's been washed of either all the salt or all the sediments or whatnot. So it's a pure product. The most common place to find pure, large, coarse, washed sand is at your hardware store because people use it to mix in with their concrete.

wash sand is at your hardware store because people use it to mix in with their concrete. Now, Jason, I've assembled all the ingredients you have listed for your potting recipe, and I was quite happy to do it, especially now having had some success last year, but now I realize the potential of having, you know, a really excellent soil block experience. So I was happy to go. Like most of the ingredients you list have to come from off-farm, and they're expensive. You know, and if this works out, I think it's going to be well worth the investment. But I also know there will be listeners out there who find, you know, really appealing the notion that they could actually take most of the

ingredients from on their farm, just from a sustainability point of view or from a cost effectiveness point of view. And actually, when Vanessa and I were passing through Oregon, we stopped at a farm, the name of the farm escapes me now, but it's Don Tipping. He's a seed producer in southern Oregon. And he uses soil blocks with all of his seedlings quite successfully. But he actually does it with a very, very simple recipe. He uses well-composted veggie compost, a little bit of sand, I believe,

and then a handful of crushed eggshells in each mix. And he was doing that successfully. and then a handful of crushed eggshells in each mix. And he was doing that successfully. That suggests to me you can get away with a recipe like that, but I imagine that you've got to be really confident about your mixing abilities and of the quality of the stuff you're putting in. That's correct, Jordan. This is the best new development in soil block making, is on-farm soil production.

And we at pottingblocks.com are really helping the beginner soil blocker, but the people that are doing these farm soil blocks are developing potting soils right on farm, and it's very possible. What we try to do is get people to work with the system correctly at first and then we try to encourage people to start finding ways to make soil blocks at home because it's not a great big mystery once you find the way that the soil block should be made it should have to have enough bounce so in that in that particular mix I can see that his using his vegetable compost

which is key. There can be a lot of bounce and a lot of stick to the soil block made with vegetable compost, which is perfect. And then eggshell sounds pretty good, too, so it's sort of like a combination between a perlite and vermiculite, and eggshell is the perfect medium. So, you know, it's not all cut and dry with soil blocks. It's not the end-all, be-all just to use peat and perlite and that's the end of the story. This is a developing field to actually make on-site soils before you're potting blocks. Right, but you recommend that the beginner try and stick with a more tried and true recipe before attempting something more homemade just because it can be discouraging

if they get the mix wrong. That's right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Once you figure out what's happening, you can then begin to experiment and create. And we've done plenty of that. And we can pretty much say for almost certain that if you do the right type of compost, you can almost create a soil block from a perfectly made vegetable compost. And that's almost like saying what you put in your compost in the end will create the soil block that you're looking for. So it's almost like you can back up and think well ahead of schedule.

Almost two years that I want to make soil blocks begin to create the perfect compost pile now. And so that's what we've been experimenting with. Right, okay. And I won't ask you to comment much about this, but I also know that you mentioned that worm castings can be really awesome in a mix as well, eh? Yeah, worm castings are the best. And they can take up the soil and the compost ratios in our recipes. So really, if all you had was worm castings, peat and perlite,

those three right there are the most perfect combinations for a soil block. We encourage people to make their own worm castings at home and stockpile up because, again, you can be feeding the worms certain materials and you could almost be creating the perfect soil blocking mix from pure worm compost. And that's, again, just by what you're feeding the worms and what the end product is going to be, you want to think, well, what do I want to have in my soil block? That's where you start to feed the worms with. So we back up and we begin to think, how do I want my soil blocks months from now?

And that's what you feed your worms with. Okay, really interesting. Now, Len, I think suffice it to say that having the right mix is absolutely essential. So that mainly deals with the medium. What about any fertilizer that you're mixing in? Can you talk a little bit about what you should be going for with any minerals and fertilizer you're adding and any risks involved in terms of adding the wrong amounts? Right, sure.

risks involved in terms of adding the wrong amounts right sure well fertilizers to me when it comes to soil blocks is always something called a long-term release fertilizer and the reason why we want a long-term release fertilizer versus a short quick burst of nitrogen fertilizer is that the medium is going to be wet from the very start. And when potting soil is wet, that's when the fertilizer begins to break down. And soil microbes are awakened by moisture. So if it's long-term release, that means that it's going to be slowly breaking down, and so you won't kill your seedling with, say, an ammonia off-gassing type of situation from a rapidly expanding nitrogen fertilizer, but a slow-release one.

And the number one slow-release nitrogen fertilizer that you can get your hands on is blood meal, and that is the best. Now, these days, blood meal has had sort of a bad reputation. That's quite all right. has had sort of a bad reputation. That's quite all right. The organic industry has found plenty of other slow-release organic fertilizers, powdered, to put in your soil block mix.

And we use soybean meal here on the farm or cotton seed meal. Okay. And now I should say, so if anyone is listening and they're considering starting soil blocking for the first time and they're very, very experienced making more conventional seedlings using plastic plugs with a more conventional potting mix, are the fertilizing requirements essentially the same in that case? I mean, if they have a tried and true recipe of minerals and nitrogen, slow-release nitrogen they're adding to their traditional traditional mix is it going to work in a blocking mix traditionally they're very similar although i have noticed that the potting blocks would have a little bit less and that's again

because we don't want to inundate the the seedling with too much fertilizer in the beginning because that might inhibit germination. But they're traditionally the same, but just maybe, I would say, overall a little bit less. But that kind of begs the question, what's different in the germinations in a potting block or soil block than in plugs? I mean, wouldn't that be the same concern in plugs that you don't want to over-fertilize? Or is there something different between the two methods that requires a little bit less fertilizing? Yes, it's completely different. And the reason is soil blocks are compressed soil, plugs are loose-filled. And what that means is the plugs will automatically have more air within the plug cell.

Soil blocks, the block itself, will not have enough air in the block. What that does is that clamps down on the amount of oxygen available to break down or to give the plant roots its available resources versus a plug has plenty of oxygen to buffer the nitrogen uptake. But with a soil block, there's a little less oxygen in the soil block, so that could create what's known as an anaerobic bacteria situation, lack of oxygen. And so that could stunt your plant or even the ammonia off-gassing can kill the seedling. And so that could stunt your plant, or even the ammonia off-gassing can kill the seedling. And so don't be afraid of that. But what you have to remember on the flip side of the coin is a soil block is surrounded by six sides of air.

So what the plastic pot does is it seals up the air from the outside but has air in the inside, where the soil block says, well, we don't have very much air on the inside, but we have access to six sides of air. And so that's where the plant roots and the seedlings will generate its air and be able to buffer any of the nitrogen fertilizer in the potting mix. Okay. Well, I think that's a great start to the conversation regarding the soil medium. And so I think we can move on. But I do want to mention that at pottingblocks.com,

Jason has got all kinds of really detailed information about making that perfect mix, especially for beginners. And I just used one of his recipes. I made the mix a couple weeks ago, and my first results, I mean, I haven't. My stuff's still, I've got some parsley seed just about to come up and some onion seed that is germinating well. So, you know, we'll see how it goes. But so far, I really like the consistency of the blocks.

So the next thing I want to talk about is, okay, so you've made your mix. You've done your research and made your mix. This is where, as a complete beginner, things can start to get, like, challenging because you go and you water your mix for the first time and you've got your soil blocking molders and then, you know, your first question is, like, how much water do I use? You know, it's, I mean, it's really a trial and error thing, but are there any mistakes people tend to make? I'll tell you, when I started, I did not know how much water to use. And I guess I'll start by asking, can you use too much water?

I mean, can you always err on the side of too much water? Is there any sort of, are the blocks able to kind of deal with that and just the water will fall out if you've got too much in there? That's right, Jordan. It's better to air on a wetter block than it is on a dry block. Because drying your dry blocks, remember, if you're already exposed to six sides of air, drying out is going to be a problem. And they're going to dry out really fast when the weather starts warming up and a little warm air begins circulating. So always air on a wetter block.

And we found that that's really the best way to deal with soil blocks. All right. Well, yeah, I wish I had known that when we got started. I think probably in the end. I also noticed on your site you mentioned to water your mix and then let it sit for an hour before you actually make your blocks. Is that correct? That's right.

And that is the very key point there because when you let your wet potting soil soak up for about an hour, what that does is all the little peaks and all the little fibers, organic plant fibers that were in your compost and whatnot, we're going to get those soaked with water, completely saturated. So what happens is that when you plant your seed and your plant begins growing, none of those spots in that soil will dry out quicker because of the wicking effect I call from a piece of dry peat or a piece of dry straw in your compost. That dry material begins to wick and dry out the whole block a lot faster

than if all your fibers in your soil block were completely saturated from the beginning. So it prevents a lot of drying out to the beginner. If he'll just let his blocking mix soak with a little water, and there's one test you can always find out to make sure you know that your blocking mix is absorbing a lot of water, is when you go away for an hour, come back, and you'll notice that your blocking mix is absorbing a lot of water is when you go away for an hour, come back, and you'll notice that your blocking mix has become a lot drier because all those fibers are absorbing more water. So it's almost beneficial to even add a little bit more water and then begin blocking,

and then you're set up for a great block that probably won't dry out. Okay. And, you know, I found last year that it doesn't take long. I mean, you start making the blocks, and either they're sitting quite, you know, they're really holding their form when you inject them onto your trays, or they're not. So that's, you know, that's fairly easy just with a little trial and error to figure out.

But then where it gets like, especially I think I find like unnerving, if you're kind of, you're going all out with these things so let's say you're just not you're going to trans transition your your nursery into using soil blocks you're taking a risk right like if you're not going to if you're not going to have any of your old style plastic plugs as backup because what if you do it wrong and it's just really unnerving now we did it last year and overall went well. But I just want to go over a few of the worries that we had and some of the challenges that came up. So one thing has to do with, so I inject my blocks onto my tray. One thing has to do with spacing them, because I know that ideally, you have air accessing all of the sides of the soil block.

But if you're using one of the soil block makers that has like 20 blocks in the thing, like there's a couple of them that allow you to make 20 blocks at once and eject them, are all those 20, like all the rows in between, they usually come in five rows of four are all the is there enough space in between each row for adequate air pruning or do you need to actually physically go in and and space them out a little more that's a good question jordan it all depends on the grower we don't space them out we think that that little bit of one-eighth of an inch gap is good enough for a fast germinating seed that we're going to be transplanting in the garden a little time anyway. Say it's going to be a slower germinating plant and you're going to kind of leave these,

leave a tray of these seeds or these plants made in these 20 blockers in the back of the greenhouse for a while because they're slow to germinate they're going to be slow to grow the in the seasons coming on very slowly then in that case we will actually manually separate them out a little bit and give a little bit of a little bit of air around the blocks and that's what they're going to sit around for a while they need air and if we're not going to watch them so closely the roots might start to dangle into each other and so it's all crop specific but like a fast germinating crop that's going to be in the garden in a couple weeks anyway we don't go through the trouble of separating them out okay um all right so then let's talk a little bit about germination. That's kind of a stressful

stage, especially when you're new and you're really relying on them to germinate well. On your site, you say that for the vast majority of stuff you're starting in blocks, you don't have to cover them with anything. You leave the seeds exposed to the air and then perhaps cover them with like a black garbage bag or something that keeps them dark. Can you comment on that a little bit? Do you find that that's quite effective? Like I think last year we were covering ours either by pinching them shut, so we weren't adding any dry material on top.

We weren't sprinkling on any compost or anything. We were just pinching the holes shut in the soil blocks. Sometimes we were sprinkling stuff on, and I think you say on your site that that can be a problem because then that dries out the tops faster, and then you get seeds drying out. That's right, Jordan. This is a very fundamental point, and this really shows me that you really are into blocking. So you're right. If you go ahead and make these wet blocks, and then you go ahead and sprinkle dry potting soil on top,

well, didn't you just defeat the purpose of trying to keep a block moist and have a moist, warm germination place for your seedling? I think so. What we've found for the beginner is that once you seed your block, for most seeds it's not necessary to cover with potting soil. But we do recommend the black garbage bag system. Now, that's because everywhere in the world there's a black garbage bag still to this day. What we like to do is take a flat or two.

You can sometimes get three flats of seedlings in soil blocks, and you can seal them up like they're going to bed. And it's a really dark, sealing-up kind of place for your soil block. So you seal up the sides and the bottoms. And what we either do is we set another, we set a sheet of cardboard or sprinkle a little water on top of this flat, these flaps that you've made your soil block. So what happens is that weight is weighting down that piece of black plastic.

That's going to prevent the seed from popping up because it's not covered. Or in your case, you pinched it. So what we like to do is seal it up tight and the moisture and the heat is going to germinate the seed quickly. And then that taproot is going to say oh well that black piece of plastic is preventing me from going popping up out of this seed double hole in the soil block so I guess the only option is oh down into the soil block so once you see your seeds have seated into the soil block lift up the black plastic and your seeds will be just fine now that works that works for most seeds, but there are some seeds that we still to this day cover, and that's all the brassica, cole crops seeds because they have a tendency to pop out of

their seed coat when they germinate. Again, we still use the black plastic over the potting soil sprinkled seed that we put in the block. So we're always using the black garbage bag no matter what on our farm. Okay, so I have a couple of follow-up questions then. First, really quickly with the brassicas, when you say popping, you just mean that they have a tendency to pop and sometimes get almost too high out of the growing medium. Like they're separated from the soil and then they can dry out easier or not germinate. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah. When they germinate, they pop, their seed tip pops out of the seed and they kind of bounce above the soil block.

I see. Okay. The other main question is, your technique suggests to me, we weren't doing this last year, it suggests to me that you're getting away on most crops with not having to water them until they're germinated. Is that true? That's correct. The soil block medium itself has plenty of moisture, plenty, for the seed to germinate and the seedling to begin to grow for several days. Okay, because this is kind of crucial. We didn't do this last year. We ended up doing a fair bit of watering while they were germinating,

which can cause problems. If you don't water lightly enough, it can wash the seeds out. You know, it's quite time-consuming, that sort of thing. So I really want to, personally, I want to come away from this conversation with a sense of how to do it from now on. So mainly I just, I take, oh, and just correspondingly, I should mention, we're starting most of our seeds on heat mats. And I'm wondering, can I get away with not watering? Is there still enough water in the block?

and I'm wondering, can I get away with not watering? Is there still enough water in the block? If I wrap it like you've been saying, but then put this on a heat mat, do you think I can get away with not watering for most seeds? Absolutely. That's how we do it. That's how we do it here all the time, and we've been blocking for 11 years now, 12 years now this year, and we've done it the same way ever since. We've developed this way ever since, and heat mats and black garbage bags are a perfect

combination. You won't have to water, and all you'll have to do is lift up the black plastic garbage bag once a day, twice a day, to make sure that the seeds have germinated. Once they've germinated and they're well-seeded in the block, seeded meaning that that tap root is poked down into the little dibble hole, then you're safe to uncover the black plastic, and your seedlings will then have a few more days where you won't have to water simply because that black garbage bag had sealed in all of that moisture

from your wet blocking mix to begin with. So we really think that that's the best way to go. It will buy you a lot of time. The only time is actually checking to see if my seeds have germinated because it's actually a manual task, lifting up the point to inspect. Now, I guess it's not enough. I'm always looking for the laziest way to do things. It's not enough, I would think, to just just so say I lay out three trays of blocks with

onion seeds it's not enough to like cover the top of them with a garbage bag and then maybe put some cardboard down it's really because they look I guess would be well I'll ask you will they dry out that way is it really important that they actually are completely wrapped in a garbage bag? It's not crucial that they're wrapped completely, but we do call it the sealing method, so like sealing it up. So as you can see, it's important for us, but it's not absolutely crucial or absolutely necessary that you be that adamant about covering it that tight. Because one other problem I foresee being someone with fat fingers and a short temper

is it just being finicky getting them in and out of the bag. Especially, I mean, I'm just thinking of the trays I'm using right now. I'm using quarter-inch mesh wire, and there's some, you know, I haven't been really careful about filing off the sides of those little pieces of wire, sticking off the sides of the tray. I could just see it being a nightmare getting it in and out of the garbage bag. Do you have any techniques for making that process easier? Oh, yes.

A clarification. We don't put soil blocks in the garbage bag. We just use the garbage bag to set on top of the seed flats. So if you said you had three flats of onions, you know, that's about the size of a medium-sized trash bag. You just push the trash bag on top of the seedlings. You're not putting anything in the garbage bag. Ah, so and then when you say sealing them, you just mean trying to tuck the bag around the edges of the trays then?

Yes, tuck the bag around the edges of the trays. Absolutely right. Yeah, we try bag around the edges of the trays. Absolutely right. Yeah, we try to make it as easy as possible. Don't bother putting them in the garbage bag. Just use the garbage bag to put on top. Okay, I'm really looking forward to this. You know, I've been watering. I have been top watering both the parsley flats and the onion ones, and just as a precaution, I'm so scared of them drying out. But I think I really risk, I think, knocking the seeds out, and, yeah, it's just kind of time-consuming. So that's great.

That's really helpful to know. Okay, so, Jason, I'm going to move on to you've got, you know, the listener, the beginning soil blocker has followed all your advice, and they've got great-looking blocks, and they've had really good germination, and now they've got to take care of these seedlings for as long as they're in the nursery. And one thing that we found so challenging and time-consuming last year was watering. We found, for whatever reason, I think maybe because we were using the wrong mix and so we didn't have an ideal block, but for whatever the reason,

we found that, well, I should also say we were kind of scared of damping off. So we watered hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of blocks last year all by bottom watering. And then what made that really challenging is we didn't have, to me, if you're good at bottom water, the ideal situation is the trays themselves are sitting in some sort of permanent home with an outer edge that's raised above the bottom of the tray that the seed trays are sitting in so that you can just fill the larger tray with water. But we couldn't really do that because we didn't have perfectly flat benches. And, well, for our first year of a marker and we had a terrible nursery last year but anyway it was a nightmare for a few reasons um we ended up having to lift each individual tray

we were watering them in this case we were only watching once a day and found that enough but once a day we had to move every single tray of heavy of soil blocks in our nursery into the larger tray to bottom water them and then put them back up on where they were sitting. And it was very time consuming. And trays and soil blocks are heavy. It was actually just, you know, quite, it was like a lot of physical work. So I'm hoping you can speak to that a little bit. What's the ideal way to set up your nursery to make for efficient watering? But first, I'll ask you to address damping off. Is there much of a risk of damping off if you do soil blocks, right? No, absolutely not.

We've grown seedlings for 13 years, and I've never experienced damping off. And we've used soil blocks for almost 12 years, and we haven't experienced any damping off. Not once. And that is because we paid attention to our nursery, greenhouse, seedling bench environment, wherever it may be, even if it's in your home. See, what you've got to remember is that the damping off fungus is everywhere anyway. It's everywhere. It's in the earth.

It's in the air. It's in the atmosphere. It's in your home. It's in your greenhouse. So's in the air. It's in the atmosphere. It's in your home. It's in your greenhouse. So you can't get away from it. But what you can do is create the right environment so that it won't become a problem. And damping off thrives on damp, still, kind of lukewarm air. So all of a sudden I've described a not so very nice environment for seedlings,

but a wonderful environment for damping off fungus. So what we want to do is bring the temperatures up wherever we are, increase the airflow wherever we are, and make sure we have plenty of light for the plants because they're seedlings. They're growing. They're thriving on light, light and more light. So damping off fungus really has nothing on those three crucial factors. So just make sure that you create the right environment and you'll never have damping off. I promise you. Okay.

So I'm going to come back to that in a second. I'm going to describe for you my setup so that you can evaluate it. You can predict whether it's going to be a problem for damping off. But first, talking about watering, I really hated bottom watering. I think that to do it right, you really have to have a really good greenhouse bench that's really level. You have to have the right larger trays, that sort of thing. Can I get away, if I do it correctly, with top watering completely this year? Absolutely.

Okay. The benches and the greenhouses systems are not the ideal bottom watering situation. The ideal bottom watering situation is for the small-scale gardener or the gardener that's got a couple trays in his home on a nice level, you know, table or benchtop. It's not about the growers whose benches are very uneven. You found that out the hard way. You can get away with topwatering, and it's not about getting away. It's about accelerating your plant growth. With foggers and misters, high-quality fogging and misting equipment will deliver air and water to the soil block, which, remember, the inside of the soil block has a little less air than plugs and trays and pots, plastic pots.

So what the fogger does is it delivers water with air molecules all around it. So it's a good blasting of water and air from the top. Plants love it. I actually don't know what a fogger is. Can you describe that to me? Sure. Well, they're commonly known as fogget nozzles. And what they are is they're specific brass nozzles that spray a very fine particle of water. And they blend

water with the air as it comes out of the nozzle with their little nozzles, the little air hole tips. So a fogget nozzle comes in four different flow rates, half a gallon per minute, one gallon per minute, two gallon per minute, and four gallon per minute. And so as your seedlings grow, they're going to require more water so you in you just change out your nozzle and continue to fog your plant the problem with damping off and the problem with with um with your seedlings being over watered in the beginning is there's not enough

air with that water what fogging does is it provides air and water. Your blocks love it. They'll never be overwatered with the fogging system. And this is just a thing that goes on the end of my hose? This is not like that's as simple as that? It's a garden hose attachment. Okay. It's called Fog It Nozzles.

You can see them on our site, on our soil block site. You can inspect them. We carry the two most common sizes, which is the half a gallon per minute and the two gallon per minute. The half a gallon goes for the micro blocks, and the two gallon per minute is best for the two-inch flocks or bigger. Okay. Well, I'm going to get one.

Absolutely. I'm really glad to know about that. But just to be clear then, if we were just planning on using a typical watering rose or whatever, that's not ideal? A watering rose is just fine. In the beginning, though, you have to be careful because, remember, if we didn't put any soil to seed in our seeds, they might be a little loose in the beginning.

So like a watering rose might damage or bend our seedling down, and we don't want to do that. Fogging never hurts the seedling whatsoever. But you can definitely use a watering rose. You just have to be very careful because in the beginning, the soil block is young. It's immature. The soil block could wash away if you use too much water, let's put it that way. The soil the soil block itself will hold together under most watering conditions but if you're constantly hammering them then you should anybody should expect a little soil block to to wash away if you're too harsh with the watering but a rose

rose watering can is common we'll do we'll use those here too but that's more to deliver a lot of water to a dry block that needs water now. But for the most part, be more consistent with fogging and make a systematic approach to watering your seedling instead of trying to catch up to half the water. You should just always be on top of it with fogging. And how we do that is try to suspend your hoses above your potting benches or your seedling benches

and then just reach up and spray the nozzle and it's done. Okay. And so I think you recommend if you're going to top water, let's say with a fogger, like three times a day, you're getting them watered. Is that right? That's correct. And every situation is different depending on the season and the crop and all that. So it's a rough estimate to say, hey, you just need to take a look at your plant at least three times a day.

That could seem excessive to some, but the fogging system is really helping your plants grow faster. I think they deserve to be looked at three times a day. But for the most part, if you don't have three times a day, once a day is enough. But for the most part, if you don't have three times a day, once a day is enough. Just fog them down really well in the early morning or fog them down really well at about one to two hours before the sun sets. Never water at night. Oh, I see. Okay, I didn't know that.

I'm glad to know that. Now, okay, so and then I'm just going add, and you just tell me if you agree. If you do, I mean, inevitably sometimes you find a tray or two of blocks that have dried out too much. That's when bottom watering can be really great, isn't it? When you just find a larger tray that you can fill with an inch of water, sink the tray in there, and let the blocks drink as much as they need. Is that right? That's right, Jordan. That's the perfect description of using the bottom watering.

Okay. Now, I want to move on. I have two more topics I was hoping to cover. One has to do with another concept covered in Elliot Coleman in conjunction kind of with the soil blocking, which is now I'm going to confuse people using a similar term differently, with block planting. So this is in one block that you're eventually going to confuse people using a similar term differently with block planting so this is in one block that you're eventually going to transplant putting say five onion seeds that

are going to turn into five different large bulb onions and then when you go to transplant them you just space the blocks further apart so per square foot in your garden bed you're going to get as many onions but it's going to allow you to grow five in one place and then a larger space and then five more, which makes for easier weeding and that sort of thing. And I really want to make this work. I really like the concept, but so far with soil blocks, I haven't had a lot of luck. And I'm just wondering if you do block planting, if you think it can work really well with soil blocks, and just general comments on that.

Yes, it's called multi-planting, multi-blocking. Multi-blocking, thank you. Multi-blocking. It is an advanced concept and technique, Jordan. You're absolutely right about this. It takes some time and it takes some practice. The concept is, just like you said, less work in the the end more seeds in one block and the soil block is the perfect medium for that because we have more soil packed in a soil block than we do of plastic pots

of the same or even larger size so it's the ideal medium to house many plants in one block so so i just i just wanted to say jason interrupt you and say that another reason for attempting the multi-plant, multi-block method is that soil blocks take up so much room in your greenhouse compared to plastic plugs, and this is a way to kind of conserve space by having on certain types of crops which are able to do it, having multi-seeds coming out of one soil block. That's right to a degree, Jordan. But I would like to make a fine-tuning correction on this. Soil blocks don't necessarily take up more space in a greenhouse than plastic plugs and trays

because the reason is that the soil block plant will grow a lot longer in one size versus you will be transplanting your plastic plug and tray systems and pot systems probably two or three or four times before you would be transplanting your soil block, or in this case it's called potting on, you'd be saving so much more space by just creating a block, initial block, and then letting the plant grow in that one block for any designated amount of time. Now, I do think that that's the space savings versus the plug and the pot system, plastic pot system and not to mention square is also

a valuable saving space saving shape versus circular so if your pots were circular your plugs are circular you're also saving space that you that geometric shape alone so those are those are those are a little bit of corrections on that notion that that popular topic there. But when it comes to multi-plants, the key here is, the key to multi-plants, why it's not working for a lot of people, I believe, is that they don't know that, let's say, five beets are going to grow in one block. That means that that's going to take a lot more water, and keep your eye on fertilizer,

and the growing of five seeds in one plant require faster timing into the garden, faster transplanting time than just one, because one can use up a block for weeks longer than five can. So it's about getting it into the garden fast, and it's about transplanting them deep into the soil and make sure that your garden soil is adequate for five plants as well. So you want five crops out of one block. So everything's a little bit quicker and everything's a little bit more intensive. But once you get the ratios right with space and fertilizers and good garden tilt,

then you'll find that your multi-plants will be a success. Okay, and one more quick question that should probably be more straightforward. One thing I don't get as I transition into soil blocking with onions, do I end up trimming the tops of the onions at any point? You know, like if I'm growing them in traditional plastic flats, most people end up just before they plant them, or even like once or twice while they're seedlings, they trim the tops down.

And then a lot of people then, a lot of people when they're about to transplant, they trim both the tops and the roots. Is it any different with blocking? Because I would think you can't get at the roots with soil blocks. Well, that's right, Jordan. You really can't. And, you know, you shouldn't. The blocks are air pruning your onion seeds, your onion plants, so you don't have to.

Now, the thing about topping your onion plants is it does stimulate more growth, but it's all about timing. So if you can go start planting onions in January, so go ahead and start planting onions in January. You'll definitely be topping them before you transplant. But if you're going to get out to a late start, you know, start planting in February, even late as March, your onion seeds are being boxed in your blocks,

then I wouldn't necessarily trim them down too much because all green matter is photosynthesis factories, and I wouldn't want to take away the ability to the plant have photosynthesis if they're growing rapidly, and I don't think it's necessary. But if we're planting onions in January we definitely find we're topping them by March and putting them out when garden soil garden soil is ready yes okay so great thank you for that I've always been wondering about that now last topic I want to cover Jason is is transplanting the blocks a huge like a probably maybe the greatest purported benefit of blocks is that if you

do it right, the air prunes the blocks so that you don't get root-bound seedlings and such that, so that when you put them in the ground, they're way more ready to just start, keep on growing, extend their roots into their new larger soil medium. And I just, I would love for you to tell me and any listeners interested, you know, how to maximize those results. What's the best, I mean, what do you need to think about when you're transplanting your blocks? Because I think Vanessa and I are still making mistakes in this regard. Okay, I would say, what do you need to think about? Deep enough planting. And the reason is, same reason as it always is, there's more chances for a soil block to dry out than there is amongst anything that's the problem, is the soil block could

dry out. So if you don't plant your block deep enough, remember, this is a very thirsty block that you've, from the very beginning, it's been saturated with water. Now, if you go into the garden and haphazardly plant a soil block and say even a side is exposed to air, that plant isn't going to be able to draw water fast enough from your garden environment now, the soil, the earth, as fast as you've been drenching your soil blocks with water. So the key there is, is a deep hole for your soil block planting.

And what that will do is allow your plant's roots to be able to quickly tap into the subsoil moisture and begin to draw as much water as it was used to. And that's the key. That's the key. That's the key. That's the key. What you have to remember is never, ever have a block available to your site in the garden, meaning you should never be able to see your soil block in the garden. The plant should be well buried, and only the stem and the stalks should be visible. And a lot of crops are even deeply seeded to the point where we're burying up the

seed leaf, maybe even burying one or two true leaves. And this is in the case of tomatoes, Nebraska crops, melons, cucumbers. We're burying so deep and we're burying them so deep that we're covering up even the leaves of the first true leaves and in the seed coat leaves. So remember those points, and you will be blown away at the results of soil blocks by deep planting and a good solid firming, sort of like squeezing out air in a balloon when you're trying to deflate a balloon or a soccer ball. You want to squeeze out all the air in the garden soil, and that will allow the plant roots to be able to access water first,

not air, and dry out. Okay, well, listening to you say that, I think Vanessa and I were doing kind of a half-assed job, which is a shame, because you go to all this work with the blocks, and you invest in all this equipment, and then the blocks have done their job, and then you don't create the conditions for them for transitioning them into the garden. I assume it can't hurt when you transplant them and you've put them in like you just described, just very likely kind of a well created. It can't hurt to saturate that with water to water those wells in and let that all sink in. Is that right? That's right. It can't hurt. But again, if efficiency is your game, that's going to be a lot of work. The best way to transplant soil blocks is that your garden

should be well-tilled. And when you go to plant, the soil is all fluffy and you push it down. And the most important thing when you go to transplant your soil block is to water your soil block extremely well. Saturate your soil block, not your soil, and transplant at dusk. And what will happen there is the completely saturated soil block will go into the earth, and the roots and everybody will be happy. When the time of the darkness comes, the plant is still growing. And at nighttime, the roots will begin to wander out.

And that's the time for the roots to grow at night, not the leaves, so that the roots are going to anchor into the soil, find the subsoil moisture, and they're good to grow by the time daylight comes up. They don't even know what they've missed. So that's the benefit of there's no transplant shock. They don't even know it. But follow these wise points. Buried deep, saturate your blocks really well before transplanting, and always transplant

at least two hours before dusk or at dusk preferably. Excellent, Jason. Look, look, thanks very much. I think you've made me a better soil blocker. And just anyone still hanging in there with us on this long interview, I can't recommend Jason's website, pottingblocks.com enough. It's just got a wealth of information and also a lot of products. If you're still kind of searching out all the tools and stuff you need, he sells a lot of it. And you're still kind of searching out all the tools and stuff you need, he sells a lot of it. And along with the advice, it's just an excellent place to visit. Well, thank you, Jordan.

We really appreciate that. Now, do you mind, I have a segment at the end of every show where I like to endorse something related to farming and gardening. Do you want to stick around and endorse with me? Yes, I'd love to. Great. So, Jason, what would you like to endorse today in the world of farming and gardening and agriculture?

I would actually recommend people check out farmtech.com or farmtech. I don't know if anybody's heard of that. A lot of people have. It's very modern agriculture equipment for farming and animal raising. But what I like most about FarmTech.com is they carry a lot of specialized hardware, and they have lots of pictures for greenhouse making and all kinds of new up-and-coming, maybe it's standard agriculture, not necessarily organic agriculture, but what you can do is get a lot of ideas, and you can have access to a lot of different pieces of hardware to build contraptions around your farm. And so we've been a loyal customer of FarmTech for many years,

and they're a big company, and they're doing good things. Their prices are right. But what we really are trying to get our readers to look at is the ideas that can be stimulated from looking at a large company like FarmTech. Cool. Thanks, Jason. that can be stimulated from looking at a large company like FarmTech. Cool. Thanks, Jason. Today I want to endorse something that will be familiar to quite a few farmers and gardeners already, but it's just been such an excellent resource.

It's the Soil and Health Library that's run out of Australia. It was started by Steve Solomon. It's since been taken over by, forgive me, because I can't remember who runs it now, Forgive me, because I can't remember who runs it now, but it's essentially an online library of otherwise unavailable books and articles and papers related to agriculture. And if you Google Soil and Health Library, you'll very likely come across it, and it's just an incredible resource on topics related to farming, gardening, and agriculture. I second that notion, Jordan. That is a wealth of information. And Steve Solomon is the Northwest garden guru, really. He's helped many gardeners grow a lot of produce up here.

Absolutely. Well, listen, Jason, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I think you've shared some really useful information with people. And hopefully we convince a few more people who were originally discouraged by soil blocks to give it another try. Hope so. Okay, thanks very much.

So that's it, everyone. That was the very basic first episode of the Ruminant podcast. In future episodes, I hope to have a few different segments. But for the most part, the show will be, uh, consists mostly of interviews with, uh,

different interesting people. Uh, anyway, I hope you, uh, check us out again and, uh, thanks for listening to this first episode.

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