The Russell Brunson Show - Jeremy Miner’s Secret to Selling Without Chasing or Convincing | #Sales - Ep. 50

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

In this episode of The Russell Brunson Show, I sat down with Jeremy Miner, founder of 7th Level and one of the sharpest sales minds I’ve ever met. His sales framework isn’t about hype or pressure. It’s about getting prospects to lower their guard, open up, and actually sell themselves. In our discussion, we go deep into how to eliminate resistance during the sales process… Especially for high-ticket offers. Jeremy breaks down the psychology of selling, why old-school techniques don’t work anymore, and how to ask the kind of questions that shift the dynamic completely. We even dive into why he named his company 7th Level… And the spiritual meaning behind it. In scripture, the number 7 is tied to completion and divine order. Jeremy believes true persuasion happens at that level: When you stop trying to push and instead help people come to their own inspired decisions. Whether you’re taking calls, closing from stage, or building funnels that sell on autopilot, this conversation will completely reframe how you think about sales. Key Highlights: Why most sales resistance is triggered in the first few seconds of a call The neuroscience behind how people make buying decisions How to create disarming conversations that get prospects to sell themselves Jeremy’s three-step question framework that takes people from curious to closed The big mistake most entrepreneurs make when pitching their offer Why selling should feel collaborative - not confrontational How to guide people to their own conclusions instead of pushing them to buy The one phrase that instantly lowers sales resistance on any call Jeremy’s approach is like the opposite of everything you’ve been told about “hard closing.” It’s subtle, strategic, and literally based on how Christ himself taught and persuaded when he was on earth… With questions! So cool!  If you’ve ever struggled with sales, either for yourself or your team, you’re going to want to listen to this one twice. This episode is packed with practical takeaways you can apply immediately to start closing more deals with less effort and more integrity. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://sellingonline.com/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://clickfunnels.com/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Special thanks to our sponsors: NordVPN: EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/secrets⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Northwest Registered Agent: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠northwestregisteredagent.com/russell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to start your business with Northwest Registered Agent. LinkedIn Marketing Solutions: Get a $100 credit on your next campaign at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn.com/CLICKS⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Rocket Money: Cancel unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠RocketMoney.com/RUSSELL⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Indeed: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job’s visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Indeed.com/clicks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Russell Brunson show. What's up everybody? It's Russell. Welcome back to my show. And I'm here today. We're not in Phoenix. Where are we at? We're in North Scottsdale, Arizona. There's a difference between North Scottsdale and like Scottsdale. What's the difference? I don't even know. Too much to explain. It's funny because like in my mind there's Arizona and it's like there's all these places but I fly one place here I never know which city I'm in and it's all this place.

I think there's like five or six million people it's like scattered. You know there's not like huge skyscrapers but it like takes hours to go anywhere. To see everything. Just it's all over the place. Well that's what we're out right now and I'm here with Jeremy Miner which I'm excited for. We just finished a podcast a few minutes ago I was on his podcast and now he's gonna be here on mine and I'm excited because I probably have finished a podcast a few minutes ago. I was on his podcast and now he's gonna be here online.

And I'm excited because I probably have different questions for you than most people have. Obviously we have a very similar religious background, but we look at things differently. You're very much like, and hopefully you'll tell us kind of your background, but like you are hardcore and it's like the history of religions and things like that.

I think that was part of your schooling. And so I want, I'd love you to tell us in the background of that and then at the end of it explain your company name, Seventh Level, because I did not know that this was tied to anything until I heard you say something on a random podcast once and it blew my mind. Why is it a level? And it's very fascinating.

So yeah. Yeah, okay, so I went to school. So I went to school for behavioral science. I was gonna become a psychologist and my minor was in New Testament Christianity. So go to school at UVU So study New Testament Christian, which was fascinated about I was always fascinated about the mind and like why do people do the things? They do like why do they have these beliefs, right? I'm always very very I always believe there's truth in everything, right? There's also some things that might not be true

There's some things that are true and I don't think we all know until after this life, but that's just my opinion. And so, in pretty much every religion, so I'm talking about ancient Christianity before like the rise of Roman Catholicism, like in probably the fourth century. I'm talking about Islam the first few hundred years. I'm talking about Hinduism, Buddhism, like not present day, but like ancient. I'm talking about even religions all the way back to, you know, the first recorded ones maybe in Mesopotamia, all had a few core beliefs that pretty much every religion believes in today.

And I find that fascinating that they've lasted like thousands of years. Now one of those beliefs was that there was different levels of the afterlife or heaven or whatever you want to call it There wasn't just like two places like a heaven or a hell right like it's kind of taught today, but there's this belief Really in every religion that there were seven levels of heaven every religion. Please seven was the number this was like you talk about ancient Christianity Hinduism Buddhism you're talking about religions that I can't pronounce back in Mesopotamia You're talking about Islam like ancient can't pronounce back in Mesopotamia, you're talking about Islam like ancient, like core, not like present day, because some of those have changed, there's just some that's still in that. But there are seven levels of the afterlife, okay? And in

order for you to inherit where God dwells at the like the seventh level. Now seven, typically in most ancient civilizations, that number represents something that's divine. Does that make sense? So it represents perfection or divinity in ancient times. I'm not sure if it represents that now, it just depends on who you read. But so that is where God dwell on this seventh level of heaven and in order for you to obtain what he has,

you had to become, you had to follow him, you had to be good, you had to believe in Christ, all these type of things. In other religions, you kind of like, I don't want to describe it in a way, like perfection was at the seventh level. So I'm like, okay, what do I name, because in my mind, Sister Ann, it's not just,

I don't do this to help people somewhere, I do it to help people communicate better, if that makes sense, because I believe that the world's problems really all stem from a lack of communication. If you think about any war that's fought, why was it fought? Lack of communication. So anything stems back to that. So in my mind, I'm like, communication has to be perfected.

So that's where I came up with seventh level. Seventh level is perfection, and your communication skills. That's where I came up with seventh level. Seventh level is perfection, you know, in your communication skills. That's where I came up with that. Interesting. Yeah. And hardly anybody ever asked me that. Yeah. A few people have asked me that.

Not very many. They just assume it's like, oh, it must be like the seventh level of the building tool or something. Yeah. Yeah. So fascinating. So a competitor might come out with the eighth level. I don't know.

We're the eighth level. There is no eighth level. out with the eighth level. I don't know Where the eighth level there is no way to love there's no eight levels only seven I'm talking about when did it when do you know when in in history? They the face started shifting away from from levels until you know, what most people believe nowadays Mmm, I you know, I would I would it just depends like, you know I mean if you know, you probably know quite a bit about ancient Christianity, the, you know, the doctrine of the Trinity, where it stemmed from and what ancient, what earliest Christians believed like from,

let's say 33 AD to maybe 325 AD kind of shifted, you know, prayers for the dead, like just different things kind of shifted as, as people had just different beliefs and different agendas. Yeah, I mean, we could really go into like the writings of Plato inspired the Christian metaphysical Godhead, but you know, you guys would get bored. Is this the marketing sells podcasts? Are we talking? I just geek out on this. So this is what I do in my spare time. I study like world religions and I studied

world war two history, just random. If you know me, I, I know everything about, if you ask me anything outside of that I'm like I have I know nothing yeah, I can't change the oil in my car Did your company know like do most people inside your company you guys talk about that as a thing? Is it more to say you create a company? That's kind of what it is. Most of it most of them No, yeah Most of them know I mean our mission is to change the way sales is perceived in society one salesperson one person one company at Time I believe everybody's in sales. It doesn't matter what you do. You're selling something.

If you're a school teacher that trying to convince your kids to do their homework, you're trying to persuade influence, you're trying to move them. If you're an attorney trying to convince a judge, your client's in it, you're trying to persuade, influence, convince. If you're a politician trying to get people to vote for you, everything is in sales. If you're a parent trying to get your kids vote for you, everything is in sales. If you're a parent trying to get your kids to behave, persuading, influencing, everything is sales. And until we all start to understand

that our communication skills can literally shape our destiny, it's hard to get where we want to go. It just is. If you were on a webinar and you didn't know 70 you know 80 percent of what you know, you know, where would your company be now? Yeah, how many lives would you not have impacted? But it's because of your commitment to master of like learning those skills to help people That has has helped you get to where you're at and by doing that it helps other people get where they want Yeah, yeah, so cool

So in school, you studied psychology. Have you studied psychology? And then? Mainly neuro. I specialize in neuropsychology, just like the study of how the brain works in conjunction with your nervous system. Oh, OK.

Yeah, weird stuff. How much of that then translates into what you're doing today at teaching sales? Well, it's everything. You've heard of fight or flight mode. Well, fight or flight mode is a reaction by your nervous system, right? So I had to learn this the hard way

so when I got into sales, I was going to my senior year at UVU and You know, I get this job selling home security systems door to door because I got married and Had my first daughter on the way cami is back there somewhere. Yes long time ago and I just viewed sales different I viewed it differently, because most, we get back in the van at night, and most of us were like, oh, this neighborhood sucks. People are so mean.

They're all broke. But I never viewed it that way. If somebody, in the first couple months I was trying to figure it out, if somebody slammed the door in my face, I'm like, oh, what did I say? Or what did I not ask that triggered that reaction in their nervous system? Like, this is weird stuff. I'm like, what did I do there that triggered them to in their nervous system? Like this is weird stuff

I'm like, what did I do there that triggered them to react that way? Like I triggered something in them I triggered sales resistance instead of complaining. I'm like going through like oh, I think you know, cuz you know, I'm talking too fast I'm making them nervous and he just slowed down my tone. Oh, this person's a little bit other thing to soften my tone You know, so like gradually I took what I was learning in school, which doesn't really It's not like they're direct correlation directly. They're not like hey, you know, so like gradually, I took what I was learning in school, which doesn't really, it's not like they're direct correlation, they're not like, hey, you know, when you say this, and this tone is gonna be, but I studied patterns, right principles and patterns. And I took those patterns from like, Sigmund Freud, people do who they

believe they're like, okay, people do they believe they are so these people believe they're this, how do I change their identity into this? And so that's where any PQ was developed. It took a while, you know, and still being developed. Yeah, that's the fascinating thing Do you study so I love Freud by studied Bernays very heavily who was Freud's nephew who kind of started, you know propaganda PR Everything you study I I haven't Freud a lot But we studied a lot of Milton Erickson because I was gonna be a child psychologist So you're talking about Milton Erickson Milton Erickson patterns and principles and different things. Yeah you

I was just Bernays because he's he because he took Freud who's Freud's nephew who took all of Freud's information Yeah and then used it to like move masses to get people to Change their beliefs on on the war and to buy cigarettes and all sorts of stuff. And so that's the lens I look like that was a war, war one, right? We're war one where he got started like after world war one, cause all men smoked, but no women smoked. So they started the commercials where like women, you know, women that are independent and women that work like smoke and it became his torch of freedom and like all these, yeah.

He started to shift the identity of like, Oh, you know, if I'm a woman, right. You thought like I'm a stay at home mom and more than that, I cannot smoke. I'm not like these guys to like I'm independent now I need to show them. I'm boss. I need to smoke. So he's shifting identities Yeah, if you follow if you have to have read the book propaganda, it's amazing, but he goes through all these different Businesses like like breakfast for example, like breakfast is not a thing that people ever had back then and then they people You know saw what he did with cigarettes, and they hired him to make that. We need people eating breakfast.

And so he's like, well, how do I do this? The first thing is like, well, if I just tell him to eat breakfast, no one's going to believe me. So he's like, he went and found all these doctors and scientists to say, oh, you need to have breakfast. Breakfast is the most important meal. They took that, built a propaganda campaign, blew it up, and now we eat breakfast.

And it's all because of this one dude who was nephew of Freud. And it was fascinating, his book propaganda. It got a bad, it's like people like we're propaganda. So then he changed the phrasing is like propaganda and chart PR. Yeah. It's like the neutral language. The cool story. It's like the, you know, the, uh, the IRS used to not be called the IRS, you know, it used to be called the internal tax service, but that sounds kind of bad. So, but revenue sounds better.

Revenue service. See the neutral language. It's the identities. So it's fascinating because identity framing that we talk about, it can be used for good or evil. You talk about World War II, like the Nazis, how Goebbels used it to literally change the identity of a nation to hate certain people where before it was maybe a little bit of the population, but how do they get,

because how do they get 50 plus percent to change their identity into that? So when you learn this type of stuff, you really have to take great care of it because you can use it for the people. With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, for sure. If you've been following me for any amount of time, you know, I always talk about as you're

growing and scaling your company, the most important thing is finding the who, not the how. Who is the person that can help you drive more traffic? Who is the person that could be your CEO? Who is the person that could build your funnels? Understanding the who will dramatically speed up the growing and the scaling of your company. Now, the best place to find the who's who can help you with your vision is Indeed. When it comes to hiring the right who's, Indeed is all you need. Indeed gives you the ability to stop struggling

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No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFrails.ca. All right, I want to transition back to you. So I didn't know this when we first met. I obviously saw you initially online, saw your funnels, like, because that's what I like.

Oh, this funnel sucks. This guy needs to, he's like the analyzer of funnels. You know, he's like, Oh, I don't want to show Russell the funnel. Like he's going to make fun of it. He's of funnels, you know Funnel like he's gonna make fun of it But prior that you told me later I didn't realize this but a lot of you will get in the sales business because they think there's good money in it You were actually one of the best sales people ever like you want to brag about yourself for a minute told me Yeah, yeah

But I look Jimmy like you showed me some of the stats and the numbers like I want to make sure might be one Understand like that you were in just some some guy I was ranked. Yeah, so Yeah, like direct selling Association ranks salespeople. You have to prove it. So it's you know, I always say like Everybody's numbers typically go down if the IRS knows it's interesting You know compared to virus doesn't know but you have to prove you have to send in like if you're a w2 salesperson Or a 1099 you have to send in Statements to show you and they actually call and confirm with the company that you work for. So I was ranked number 40, 45 in the world. It's a long time ago. 45 in the world from like

2010 to 2018 based on what I was making per year as a salesperson. This is out of like a hundred and eighty-seven million salespeople in any industry selling anything. But I was always like, OK, these 44 people above me, there's still stuff I have to learn. That's what always drove me. And some of it is your industry you're in. There was like the industries I eventually

like I capped out everything. And that's why I would leave, because I'm like, even if I sell three times a month, I can't make more. I'm capped. There's nothing I can do. So yeah, it was a fun run. But it taught me a lot. Like I've sold in four different industries, two business,

two consumer, two B2B. And so even after like I had an 18-year sales career before I retired, even when I retired, and then like a year later, I'm like, OK, I'm going to start the sales training company. I still was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like I was at the top of my game for all these other industries. But like this, because I didn't even label it in EPQ then.

I was just like, had all these different types of questions that I had and it was like, I didn't have really labeled it. I knew what it was, but I'm like, how do I duplicate in this in every industry? So there's always that question when you do something. There's always that little doubt. And I think that is good to have a little bit of a doubt because I think doubt in my mind always drives change

because I'm always like I'm looking for the person behind me like over the shoulder like I really love Tom Brady story you watch his documentary no it'll change your life but he always talks about like he's he was always looking for the next guy up he was like I might have a bad practice or bad week or bad game I'm looking at the guy behind me that's about to take my job. And that drove him, like literally drove him to keep learning more than everybody else. And that's why he stayed at the top. And a lot of people get complacent.

You see, and you see that in business too. You see a lot of business owners that get complacent eventually, and then eventually they get left behind. But it's the ones that like are always like have that little doubt, little seed like, you know, like somebody's coming for me. So I've always got to keep getting better. Yeah. I think that's the ones that like are always like have that little doubt little seed like, you know, like somebody's coming for me So I've always got to keep getting better. Yeah, I think that's the key I think I think it's good to have that so when you did you did transition to the sales training coaching You started doing everything that I think one of the really smart things you did and I talk about people all times like

You're teaching a thing. You don't want to look like everything else. And again, I don't know the story behind this But you definitely created something you created a framework you named it it became yours it was like you know this thing that was different so like in my feet I stand there people right on new model of selling yeah it pops out and I was like what does any PQ like what is it like it was a unique framework with a different name and everything and I love like how did you develop that why did you develop it like what was the idea why I sit down I was like okay I have to have like a framework or methodology you know and this is I think this is even before

this is like 2018 I don't even know when we did the first year and half was like a blur like we made some money and we spent more money like it's just like what happened you know it took us like a year and a half to figure it out but setting down I'm like okay what I'm gonna name this okay so went to school for neuropsychology gonna Going to become a psychologist. So neuro, that's where neuro comes from. Neuro stands for brain, how it works in conjunction with the nervous system.

So there's the N. E, emotional. So like I always say, and I love Tony, and I love to just go to the events because I'm all geeking out. I'm like, everybody's crying, laughing, and jumping. I'm like, man, that was a really good D frame lowered his tone there like like you see like the audience change and then that song came on just everybody cried like brilliant like that's how I'm going like I'm looking I'm like I'm seeing the

frames and the body language and stuff you and I get yeah but so anyway so the E stands for emotion so I always say, in order to master influence at the highest level, you have to master how to emotionally connect with that other human being or audience, whoever it is, where they feel that you're going there first. They feel like you understand them, their needs, their desires, their fears, their wants,

without buying into their story. Now, there's a key line here, because you can understand somebody and judge them. But if you judge somebody and they feel that it's unlikely, they'll buy most people, if they feel like you're judging them. So you have to feel like they didn't feel like you understand them and you're concerned about the consequences if they don't change not, Oh, you don't have the money. Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, that doesn't help them. That would be me buying into their story.

I have to get them to feel that I'm concerned if this stays the same for them. The consequences. And a lot of that is to do with your physiology, your tonality, shifting. That's why Tony doesn't talk in one monotone the entire time, because nobody would know who Tony was if he talked like that.

And so that's where the E stands for emotional. It's that emotional connection. Okay. The P stands for persuasion. And I like to say self persuasion. So how do I frame the offer? Because this is I was talking to I don't know if you saw me. I was with Dan Henry at your event.

This is like you've have you had Dan on your show? Yeah, I love Dan. He's like one of my favorite. I didn't know you know, I'm like, we're like, we're like brothers, your show? Yeah. I love Dan. He's like one of my favorite dudes. You probably know him. Dude, we're like brothers, man. This is just fun. We're geeking out on D-framing.

Who are these weirdos? But we're talking about everybody's solution looks the same. It's like everybody thinks, oh, well, if I just sell this, that's going to be all the. We have this big Facebook group called sales revolution There's probably a hundred and eighty thousand salespeople in there and you know every day there's new test What's boo-boo-boo-boo and people the first question they ask if they're not a concept

Oh, what industry you in because they'll be like, you know My sales are tripled or I used to make this and now I make this or whatever it is If there are salesperson the first question must be oh what industry you in now? Why are they asking that because their belief system is it must be the industry? It's not me Yeah, so if I go to that industry, maybe it'll be different And then they go to that industry and they they're like, oh shit. There's other problems here this market saturated too Oh my gosh, like, you know the the amount of times I've heard salespeople say you don't understand our our market saturated like What how many industries do you feel probably say that?

Insurance saturated, cars, solar, everything's saturated. Funnels saturated, everything's chairs saturated. So anyway, so going back here, it's how you frame the offer. So Dan and I were, Dan were talking about, like, imagine two family picture frames. So imagine your family picture frame, you got your kids there, your parents there, whatever, it's on the mantle, okay?

Same exact picture, but now you have to go buy two frames. The first frame you buy is like, immaculate. It's like, you know, you got it from like, trump.com, you know, it's like all gold, you know, if you've ever been to like Trump Towers, everything's like gold, the chocolate bars are gold, you know, you're like, he this guy likes gold. And so like, they just go like the best picture frame in the world. And another frame, you go to the flea market, and it's like

a cobbs whips and it's broken, it just it looks cheap, it looks horrible. Same family picture, which one are you getting? The one that's framed better. So your offer's somewhat important, but the main thing that will separate you from everybody else is how you frame the offer. That's it. And when you start to realize that, how you frame what you're selling,

and that's gonna determine if they buy from you or not. Like everything will change, because you'll start focusing less on the product, and you'll start focusing on the results of Why they're even buying something like that and I think most people just they don't understand that I think they're starting to get there. Yeah, it's good. I think most those people they follow script You know, I think about that with you talk about getting back in the car to sales guys then day Oh, it's not working neighbors are working. No one's thinking like the deeper strategies like principles behind it's just like oh didn't work for this thing

It's like yeah, but like why yeah, because like look in every sales organization How does some how does salespeople selling the same thing to the same prospects? Same price points using the same script. How do they get completely better leads? It's because of it's not necessarily the the the words, but it's how they say the words, it's how they ask the questions, it's their physiology, that's a big part of it. Now the words do matter. Every book talks, 93% is your non-verbal,

7% is your words, that's kind of a failed study, that's an old study, it's actually a little bit more. About 30% is your word views and the things you ask. 67% of it is just how you ask the questions, the tone, right, and your body language and the cadence, how you pace out the question compared to asking it too fast. You know, there's so many nuances there.

Yeah. So cool. All right, I wanna geek out on the marketing side of this. So you created NPQ, you're going out these months, first year and a half, spending more money than you're making. What was the transition as far as like, this is the offer, this is the funnel, this is the thing we created, this is the business model. Like what is, what was the winning business model for you after you tried a bunch of things?

So you're like, okay, we got it, now we can start growing. I think the first year was like 2019. I did three webinars. It was me and my assistant. That was it. So she was my assistant at my old job before I retired. I was like, hey, Beth, I'm starting this thing. Do you want to come be my sister? She's like I'm in so it's me and Beth and so like I think that's when we signed up for Clickfunnels. I think she did that. She saw something click on us still remember to

and then we Hired this marketing agency, you know to run our traffic and I didn't know anything about traffic You know or how that worked or how to write ad-copy or anything and they just started advertising and I you know, to run our traffic. And I didn't know anything about traffic, you know, or how that worked, or how to write ad-copy or anything. And they just started advertising. And I had a little bit of, I'm like, OK, I'm going to throw some money into this. And I think we did three webinars. I don't remember how many people we got on there,

but those days are behind me. But that first year, I think we did about 1.3 million in sales. Just three webinars, because I was still kind of like retired. And I think we spent $1.9. So we just lost $6. And that was just coming off. You didn't have a following of the point, right? There was just finance.

People show up, you sell something, they're gone after that. Nothing. No, nothing. That's still pretty amazing, though. Yeah, I mean, and I didn't know how to go from selling one to one, or like one to five or 10 in a boardroom, to then like, how do I

sell on a webinar where people, I'm not even in front of them. It was awkward for me, right? I had sold on the phone, and I was sold in the boardroom in front of people, but going to like, now I've got 5,000 people on a webinar, I'm like mumbling and mumbling. I was probably one of those people,

you're like, oh God, that guy stole a story too long. Horrible. But after the first couple of times, I learned quickly, I'm like, okay, that didn't work. I'm like, analyze it, I'm like, okay, that didn't work. I'm like, analyze it. I'm like, okay, that sounded like crap. I'm curious, I tell people all the time, like there's difference between one to one, selling one to many.

You've done both and what were the tweaks? Like what were the changes you had to make to transition from one to the other? The biggest thing is it's very easy to, like if I'm on a Zoom call or a phone call or in person with a person, how to basically, like instead of, I mean, there's so many different things. But instead of like a lot of people like, oh, you got to mirror the

prospect when I'm like, well, I'm going to teach you how to get them to mirror you. That's pretty easy when you sell one to one, or maybe there's four people in a room when there's 3000 different hearings, a little bit of a tweet there. You know, I can tell if I'm selling one to one usually within the first like couple of things that they say, like how they feel loved, like, or what fears they have, like this, this guy has a fear of significance that he's not

significant, because in the first 30 seconds, he said he went to Harvard, and he got his degree in this, I didn't even ask him. So what's his fear that he's gonna be viewed as not significant or dumb? Right? So I can see that the patterns and the principles pretty quickly and adjust very quickly. But when you know, you've got 15,000 people in a webinar, how do you do that? You know, they're in there, but how do you do that? So I had to start learn.

It's just the principles. It's the patterns. And eventually, you know, I started on patterns. And then I go hire people that we have sold on stage before, because I want to learn from them. And then I'll take what I know with psychology and be like, oh, the way they ask that question, that's a really good question, but they ask it way too fast.

If they just slowed down and they went from really playful tone there and then lowered it into, I'm concerned for you, that would have landed better. So I just do little shifts like that But I I'm a huge believer in like just hiring people that already know how to do what you you want to do And learn from them and you just it the trick is you got to find the right people to do that because in the very beginning That first year to I was just throwing money. I was just like oh you do ads Honor grand here. Oh you do a website? How much is it? 40 grand?

Okay, here. Just like throwing money. And that's, you know, that's why I lost like 600 grand. Then I'm like, okay, market agencies, maybe they don't work. Maybe we have to figure this out, you know? And then the next year,

maybe we did a couple million more. We were like actually profitable. And then at that point, were you pulling more people internally or you just find different agencies? Yeah, and then like after two years, I'm like, OK, I don't know how to really run this type of business. Because at a high level, I've been

a vice president of sales for a really big company in my corporate career. And I was a chief sales officer for a really large company. But that's completely different than you own the business and you have to hire the people. And it's like a startup. It's like you're talking about 90 day difference. I was the chief sales officer of a company

who was already doing $400 million a year, which is different. And so I had to figure out, OK, my strengths are here. My weaknesses are here. I'm not very good at this. I don't like this. So I need to find somebody that's really strong in this area.

And that's when I started just finding people that would do that. And I'm like, it's going to be way less expensive for me just to hire them and pay them to get the result that I want than me trying to figure out how to write ad copy. Yeah, just things like that. Yeah. And then started things started to shift, you know, 2020, we started getting on the map, you know, we might have did maybe four or 5 million, you know, which is not a ton. I look at it now like, oh, geez, you know, 2021, we doubled that, you know, we won the big $10 million or whatever, you know. And then my

first real was January 2022. I didn't really I didn't even have an Instagram account before January 2022. I think one of my girls told me like, you need to do these reels or something. I mean, camera. Yes, I can't do these reels. I'm like, what's the real, you know, and IG IG started doing reels in January 2022. And then that's when we started getting out there. Because then we started retargeting the reels. And our ad spinks went way down.

And I'm like, wow, this is really awesome. And so we're always trying to improve in that game. Build up the organic with the ads. This episode is brought to you by Dzone. For the first time ever, the 32 best soccer clubs from across the world are coming to with ads. You can watch every match for free on DAZN, starting on June 14th and running until July 13th. Sign up now at dazon.com slash FIFA. That's D-A-Z-N dot com slash FIFA. For my funnel nerds, I wanna walk through the process. Right now you're doing organic pay.

What's the breakdown in where the traffic's coming from for your business right now? That would be a question for marketing people. But we have, Curtis doesn't like this term, it's called SLOs, because he's like, that one is close to being an SLO, but it's not self-liquidating 100%. We can't call it an SLO. Almost self-liquidating.

Almost self-liquidating, yeah. We're going to rename it. So we have several of those. We have the NVQ Black Book Questions. We have the Insurance Black Book Questions. That's our biggest industry we're trained. So it's any type of insurance. Life insurance is our biggest, final expense,

commercial, property casual. It's just a bunch of it's homeowners. And then we have a new one called any BQ black book of cold prospecting, like cold calling, right? So more for our B2B audience. And we generate, I don't know, I don't know how many buyer leads.

I know the black book, the generic black book does like 10,000 plus buyer leads a month. just from that's not any fill it's that's just us cold traffic and then we have an outbound team we also have I think we have the things called the funnels you know I just don't look at them I see some that's I'm like man we've been running that ad for three years it still works it still works there's like a zillion comments on there I'm like does anybody buy from that ad is anybody auditing that but You can tell I don't know

I'm like you don't know any of this information. This is the most important part This is all the marketing people on her team But we have some really good people that that do that where Blake is our guy that does all of our media by and Blake White's Good guy if you know him Yeah, it's you know, I try to stay in my lane man. Yeah. I just get on the camera and say some stuff. Here's the script read it out. Yeah. So someone buys one of your SOS at the beginning. What's the rest of the business on the backside look like? Okay so let's say they're called by the NBQ Black Book. Yeah. So there's many different avenues. So let's say they buy NB you black book Then we have the we have an outbound team So we have about fifty five sixty sales people I could be off one or two and Probably at least half of those are on that band team

So they're calling all those black book buyers from any black book or and we have another book SLO called the top 50 objections Black book or something. It's out there too. I don't know how much that generates and so they call them So might have a 10-15 minute conversation about you know what they're looking, you know why they're looking to possibly learn how to sell more. Hey crazy idea, we want to learn how to sell more, I don't know crazy. And then they'll book them in with one of our senior specialists is what we call them and they'll go over like different training options, you know help build a gap, you know from where

they are to where they want to be and then they'll go into if they're a consumer, not a company, they'll go into like one of our main core three offers we have any PQ Academy what's called fundamentals that's like a four thousand offer that's like a 51 hour course of me you know all recordings of different subjects for sales and then they like one training call a week which is a huge like group coaching call that I do okay but you might have thousands of people on that one that's a four grand offer and then we have one that's a ten grant offer where they get the portal 51-hour course and then they get more specialized

training so they might have another training call each week I think in that that program there's like nine or ten different training calls a week on different subjects advanced tonality objection prevention deframing identity framing framing, you know. You teach those, they have trainers. Yeah, trainers. I do one of those, that's it, in that program, that TINGRA, but that's a huge group call. There might be a thousand, two thousand people on there every week, and then we have trainers that do the other calls, okay. Those are group training, and then we have what's called NEP or inner circle mastery, okay, and that's where I'm more involved. That's industry specific.

We pretty much train every industry at this point, all the subcategories. Let's say if you sold doors, home improvement, we'd probably have hundreds of home improvement scripts from the different companies we train, different salespeople we train. The first three years, we were savages because I knew we were going to do this. Me and the trainers wrote out all these scripts from every industry And people didn't pay as much for them as they probably should but now we have a bank of like thousands of industries with six scripts So when they come in there, they'll go copy and paste one of those from their industry One that's very similar and then on those training calls

We teach them patterns and principles on how to tweak it for basically what they sell and I do two of those training calls per week and I do it because I really like doing it and I and for me in my mind like if I'm not constantly training I'm Losing skills. Are you with me on that? Like I can't just like I'm not gonna do any more training. I'm just done. I'm retired Like your brains like my I don't you know, my brain cells would yeah, I'm just done. I'm retired. Like your brains, like my, I don't, you know, my brain cells would have to keep learning. So we're always tweaking things. You know, we might have a client on there that sells, let's say, you know, I don't know, sass or something, they sell an AI device that

helps doctors, you know, you know, automate their notes instantly, rather than manually doing it, or whatever, you know, and we write this sale structure out for it. And they might have changed, like, what I call problem awareness question, just a little bit of a different. And I'm like, oh, the way they change that because I'm teaching principles and patterns. I'm like, that was really good.

We could take that same change and we can do that in this industry, this industry. I'm always like, creative. Like, any PQ is always ever developing. And that's what I believe you have to be. Because like, I believe when you commit to mastery, I believe you'd never master it in this life. Like you're committed to master marketing. Would you say like I know there's nothing I can get better at.

Like you're always like, I study more now. What am I learning? Yeah, the same way I'm like searching for more. Always learning. I'm like, how do I tweak? How do I make this better? And I think you have to be like that. I unfortunately, I see a lot of our competitors that we've kind of blown by. They just they didn't do that anymore. just, it got stale, you know, and we're talking to some companies that have been around since like the 1970s, that were the big boys that were now have flown way past because they just got stale. And I'm never, I'm never going to, I'm always looking over my shoulder.

Always scared coming back, you know, so I'm always like looking, you know, so I always got to, I always got to stay in there. You know, my, my thing people always ask me when I was in sales like how are you selling so much I'm like I don't know I'm just out learning everybody else there's no like secret sauce like I just I just put in more time learning this stuff than everybody else like when I'm driving down the road when I was in sales even now I'm not listen I always make fun of Taylor Swift I'm not listening to Taylor Swift like how's this helping me sell more like no offense you know maybe you when I was in sales, even now, I'm not listening. I always make fun of Taylor Swift. I'm not listening to Taylor Swift.

Like, how is this helping me sell more? Like, no offense, you know? Maybe you have a cheat day on Saturday, it's your music day, you know? Where you just listen, you just jam out, you know? But like in my mind, like, you know, Brian Tracy, first concept I ever learned in sales. University on wheels, I went to this seminar,

this is like 2001 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Like, he's like, use your car as the university I was. I'm like, yes. Literally turn off the radio. All they did was listen. It's like, sale CDs all the time. And you do that, man. I'm telling you, you do that just, even if you

do that an hour a day, people are like, oh, I don't have time. Well, what do you listen to when you drive to work? What do you listen to when you drive to the chiropractor? What do you listen to when you drive home? What do you listen to when you drop the kids off at soccer? What do you listen to when you go back? What do you listen to when you're down in your shirt? You have those earbud things. What do you listen to when you drive to the chiropractor? What do you listen to when you drive home? What do you listen to when you drive the kids off of soccer? What do you listen to when you go back? What do you listen to when you're down on your shirt? You have those earbud things.

What do you listen to when you eat breakfast? I mean, you don't have to get up at three in the morning to do this. Like you can listen to five minutes here, 10 minutes here, eight minutes here. And every day, if you do that consistently, that's at least an hour of learning. And you do that seven days a week,

that's seven hours a week, that's 28 hours a month, that's 350 or whatever hours a year and you do that for 23 24 years It's kind of really hard to suck at anything. Yeah, because you just out learn everybody, but you have to say You have to stay you're committed to mastery, you know and to me I just I just like it Just I'm always like especially selling from stage because it wasn't something I was used to it So now I'm like, I'm just like all I'm just like mastering the selling from stage, because it wasn't something I was used to. So now I'm like, I'm just like mastering the deframing and the reframing. I'm like, OK, I got to do this.

Just to me, it's exciting to learn this stuff. I just love it. So cool. And then in your business, you're also doing events and challenges, stuff like that. How does that fit into the core? Yeah, so the Ascension model is, let's say that the sales people can never get ahold of the person.

Well, then we have funnels that start to retarget them to get them to go to our challenges. We used to do challenges, the five day events, like every three months. But our marketing team is getting burnt out all the time. And so we switched that to, I think this year we're doing three. We've already done a couple of them.

We have our next big one end of September. And so they get funneled to those events. And then every six weeks we do like a two day master class, which is like two hours each day. And the CTA assembly to book a call with one of our specialists to learn about our industry specific training. But we get like 35%, 40% on that, that book and a call.

And so now we're automating. We just did a big insurance workshop where we had like 5,000 or 6,000 people. And it was a paid workshop. They all paid like $50 to $100 just to be on which I like the paid the bigger ones the big challenges we do those for free with the VIP but these smart sets they're all paid and Every six weeks you do that so they get they might get funneled to that if they don't book a call there or buy from there They might get funneled to the next challenge

So they're always getting funneled to something is what we do do. Something to reactivate and re-ignify it up and then push it back to the call again. Now we have a whole community that's being built out a platform. I don't know all the details. That's our community manager. It's not the one Hermosia has. It's cool.

It's cool. I think it's called Disco or something. I can't remember. I don't know. It's very sad. I don't know all the details. Anyways, so some of our platforms are for consumers, and then others are for companies now companies are different

they're not necessarily in those consumer programs because They need more attention. And so it's all customized at that point most of the companies we train probably pay like a monthly retainer of anywhere on the low end of 2500 bucks to like NBC golf channels one of our. And they probably pay us 15 grand a month, okay? And they have access to our portal and they have like a sales trainer that does like two training calls a month for them. And then they get on a huge group training call

that I do with all companies where I teach something every month. So there's different things to do. And some of them pay for more. Some of them then pay for workshops in person You know and depending on the the funding they have it's either me or one of our trainers They're they're doing them. So it's yeah businesses are a little bit different. Yeah, very cool Well, thanks for trying to learn man. I'm trying to learn from you. Yeah

Well, my my funnel nerds on my side will love that you kind of hearing the behind the scenes that kind of stuff I'm sure there's a lot more that I That I didn't go over that are marketing people are gonna get upset at me. Yeah. Well for all my people Where's the best SLO friend look at to get plugged into your world the the black book questions? Yeah, I mean, I don't even know the website to that. That's that's how Anybody know the anybody know the fun, but I'd say just have to text me just haven't text me. Okay They text you with what's that? What's the number we change the text number is it four eight zero six three seven two nine four four Yeah, yeah, have them text me at four eight zero six three seven two nine four four So me and a couple of our sales trainers lock herself in a room every here and there we answer questions to text yeah

Really? Yeah, well, there's not just me. It's other sister I wish I could answer every question sometimes you want to give my your cell phone every hour they haven't haven't Texas questions and we'll haven't just text us on that number and just say hey I heard Russell you know okay can we get a link to the black book now there's an investment $2727 for the black book. I know if you need a GoFundMe page, just let us know. If you can't afford this, then you need more.

I don't know. But hey, look, I know your audience is smart. They're entrepreneurs. And I love working with entrepreneurs like your audience because as an entrepreneur, they know that the biggest asset they have is their time. And once their time is gone, they can never get it back. So smart entrepreneurs, they know that investing in mentorship, coaching, and those types of things, and learning from others who have mastered things, help them get to the next

level. So you've got some smart people. Yeah. Very cool. Well, thanks, man, for letting me come hang out and overhear your side of the world and sharing all these really cool things. Thanks for having me on man.

Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. Yeah. Do you have a funnel but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you wanna learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert,

then get a ticket to my next Selling Online event by going to sellingonline.com slash podcast. That's sellingonline.com slash podcast.