The Ryan Hanley Show - Ex-MIT Negotiator: The 1 Conversation Costing You Millions

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

I help founders & executives generating more than $10M in revenue find their Easy Mode. Start here: https://ryanhanley.com/subscribeWatch this episode on YouTube: https://youtube.com/ryanmhanleyYou’ve been doing it wrong.You think negotiation is a battle across a boardroom table. You think it’s about being the loudest, the hardest, the one who refuses to budge.Here is the truth: The most expensive negotiation you will ever lose is the one happening inside your own head before you even open your mouth.Today on Finding Peak, I sit down with Attia Qureshi—former MIT faculty, U.S. State Department consultant, and author of Never Settle. We break down why your "hard shell" is actually costing you money, power, and relationships.We cover:Why 40% of men under 30 have never asked a woman out in person (and what it means for the future of business).The "Lemonade Strategy" that turned a hostile neighbor into a massive real estate asset.How to stop negotiating with yourself and adopt the Mamba Mentality.The exact script to guess someone's hidden motives without setting off a landmine.If you are tired of leaving money on the table and walking away from conversations wishing you had asked for more, this episode is your playbook.Grab Attia's new bookNever Settle: https://amzn.to/3P8YAWsGet her free Emotion Wheel tool: https://www.attiaqureshi.com/archetypequizThis is the way.HanleyThis show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

I think that the first most important negotiation is the one with ourselves. They don't talk about it. They don't consider it. They don't prep for it. When I was growing up, I was really severely bullied. I was blown away because I didn't have to be that scared little kid inside. If you can't keep up with me, too bad I'm leaving you. Like, get out of my way.

People can almost always help us. It depends on if they want to or not. For all of you out there who struggle with negotiation because you think that it's hammering at each other, that's not true. It's a conversation. It's not a battle. I didn't realize this, but I, for a long time, had a problem with negotiating myself. Very ambitious guy, very hardworking guy, but I would set a goal.

And then, like, because I also have severe ADHD, I would find another thing that I liked. And then I would start negotiating with myself about the original goal and how much time and was it that important. And now all of a sudden, you know, this is just one. example of this, I'd find myself, instead of having one priority that I had already set that I had already determined, I'd be negotiating my time and attention and prioritizing all these these different things. And now all of a sudden, none of the things that I actually wanted to have happen happen. And then I heard, say what you want about social media, your feed is a reflection of what you give your attention to, right? My Instagram is mostly like,

how to coach baseball, motivational quotes, like, funny stuff and like nerdy science. So I saw this thing from Kobe and it was an interview he was doing where he described this Mamba mentality and really the core idea of Mamba mentality, which is do not negotiate with yourself. If you say you're going to do X, once you make up your mind, that's it. There's no negotiation. It is written in stone. For whatever reason, that stupid Instagram video just like locked into my brain. I was like, I have to solve this for myself. And I will say it's something I continue to work through.

you are negotiation expert specialist. You've written the book. How do we approach this? Like, how do we lock this? One, do you feel this is important enough to prioritize as something you really need to have to be successful? And two, like, how do we actually do this? How do we make not negotiating with ourselves a practice in our life? I love this because I think that the first most important negotiation is the one with ourselves,

the internal negotiation that a lot of people don't ever think about. They don't talk about it. They don't consider it. They don't prep for it. And people think that negotiation is this action where I walk into a room and I have to sit down and hammer it out across the table with someone. And that's not it, right? There's so many other pieces of negotiation involved, a lot of it happens before you even walk into that room. So let's talk about the internal negotiation because I fail. at the internal negotiation for a lot of my life. And I would argue, you know, Ryan, you mentioned it, that you struggled with it early on. A lot of us do. Why? So I'll give you a little story. When I was growing up, I was really severely bullied. I had frizzy hair, glasses, and braces all at the same time.

And in fifth grade, there was a girl, Bethany. And Bethany had decided I shouldn't have any friends. No one sat with me or talked to me at lunch or recess. I escaped to the the classroom and my teacher thought it was because I was shy and it was a heartbreaking year, but a very powerful lesson for me in influence. So I had a second chance and we moved and I decided to create a really hard exterior, an exoskeleton or a shell around myself. And I asserted confidence and I asserted, you know, I was really good at positional negotiation where I would state my demand, refuse to budge an inch and threaten to walk away. And that served me really well in the moment, but it didn't have any great lasting impacts for

additional repeat interactions. And it had a lot of life impacts outside of just negotiation for me. A couple of decades later, I'm sitting in MIT's power negotiation class with my co-author John, and he says something to me that changes my world. He says, I can get more out of a negotiation by caring about what the other person needs and building a strong foundation and a strong relationship and bringing my own interests to the table, creating value for all of us. And I was blown away because I didn't have to be that scared little kid inside or that domineering person that I was projecting to protect myself and make sure I got something out of the deal.

So that was both sides of failure. for me in the internal negotiation, where at first I was really not rocking the boat. And I was quiet and shy and I didn't want to make any ripples and I held back a lot. And that comes potentially a lot from growing up as a kid of immigrants. But on the flip side, I decided to assert myself and I became really hard and assertive and just way too positional and stuck in my kind of stance on what I wanted out of the negotiation. And what I needed to do was that internal work on what did I care about? What were my goals? And why was I so afraid to negotiate? And we all need to figure out what it is that stops us because there are often things that stop us from negotiating

before we even get started, right? Are we afraid of what they're going to say? Are we worried about damaging the relationship? Do we have anxiety about bringing something up and being able to defend it and showcase that we are worthy? Are we worried that the thing is going to be taken away from us, right? We don't want to rock the boat. Or sometimes we forget all of that and we feel like we have to walk in and assert ourselves and just make the demand because we've waited for so long. That's the first part of the work. And I'd love to hear your perspective on that when you were stopping yourself or negotiating with yourself on if that resonates with you where we don't manage the emotion around it.

Completely. And what's funny is I actually different but very similar story. I grew up poor country kid, middle of nowhere. And I was, well, my classmates called me fat. I was probably just a little pudgy. But my nickname all the way to ninth grade was fat boy. and it's not nice. It's not, it's not really a great feeling showing up every day where your two nicknames were,

one, Nassau, which is the town I grew up in, and because it was such a shitty little town, literally calling me my town's name was derogatory. And then two, like my other nickname being fat boy. And so it was also fifth grade in which I, like, I would get tormented from leaving the classroom. And then like any day that it was nice out, we would walk. from the classroom out to the playground, right? And you do kickball or whatever we would do that day. And but there was like to get there,

the teachers would basically push us out the door and there was like this backside of the building that we would walk down that was maybe a couple hundred feet before you got out to the fields. And there'd be a different set of teachers out in the field making sure that everyone was, you know, doing whatever. So there was a period of time where then these particularly, these three kids would literally just torment the shit out of me

that, like from the moment we walked out of the building to the moment we got to the, the fields, it would just be pure torment. And I mean, I don't know that this is positive, but I eventually got so sick of it that one day I threw a punch at one of the kids. I missed his face and hit him in the throat and he fell to the ground. And I'm not saying that's positive, but it was certainly not, it wasn't positive. It was negative, right? Like, you shouldn't have to do that. I do think, unfortunately, the world works in a certain way. But certain people just don't respond to anything else.

But that moment, like, it wasn't, even though they, from that moment on, they stopped bullying me because they knew that I would fight back. It wasn't a positive moment. Like, I don't look back on that and go, like, oh, I'm so glad I had to throat punch a kid in fifth grade in order to get him to stop harassing me. So I had a very similar thing where I didn't create a hard shell. What I created was this, like, if you can't. keep up with me, too bad, I'm leaving you, like, get out of my way. Like, I go 100 miles an hour. If you don't go 100 miles an hour, too, you're not as good. Get out of my way. I don't care. Like, keep up or you don't exist. And that was kind of how I created my version of a hard exterior

shell. Now, underneath all of that was all the same rot that you're talking about. Like, I hadn't dealt with any of the emotions. I hadn't dealt with these insecurity or scarcity stuff. So very similar. I'm like listening to you talk. Like, my story's different. But similar, and the ages are similar, which is wild, where, like, here I am, like, just, I'm so driven. I get so much done. Like, if you can't keep up, then you're not as good as, you know what I mean? Like, I had this, like, like, ego kind of, bra. And that was my defense mechanism.

And that ultimately, just as you said, and you're like, that version of me led to a lot of problems, including getting fired from multiple jobs where I think, I think I'm like this hard charging, incredibly valuable, get stuff done person. And leadership is like, yeah, maybe, but you're also pissing everyone off while you're doing it. And, you know, we can't have that. It took almost until my mid-30s to kind of figure out, like, this isn't the version of you that's going to be able to be successful long term.

Like, you have to kind of start to change this. And, you know, like I said, now I feel like I'm working towards the path. I'm not there yet. But, but yeah, very similar to what, you know, negative experience. with getting, you know, pushed around and made fun of to creating a version of myself that I didn't really like. I didn't like that version of me. I just didn't, I just knew that version of me, that kid can't run around me in a circle and tell me I'm fat and I'm poor. And like, it's wild to think that as adults, these things that happened to us when we're 10 can carry with us that long.

Oh my gosh. That's exactly. And well, first of all, kids suck. And I think that we all have a version of that. We all do. We've all had something that happened to us where, whether it was, you know, as a kid or as a young adult, it really impacted us and the way that we perceive ourselves and project ourselves. Because for me, it was, I certainly was also like super aggressive about being the best, right? I wanted to be the best. I wanted to be the strongest. I wanted to be the smartest so that no one could touch me. But that kept me from, for me, the biggest consequence was not. not finding anyone who wanted to be in a relationship with me for a couple of decades because I was so, I had this level layer between me and everybody else. And I was just projecting and working towards

something because I thought that's what made me stronger and better. And I think when we have that part of us inside that we don't address like you're talking about, we don't think about it, we don't pay attention to it. It presents itself in different ways in our lives that, make it tricky when we do come to situations of influence. And I would argue that we are in moments of influence dozens of times per day. Of course, it's at work with our colleagues and our bosses about salary and promotions and who's going to do what workload and how are we getting our teammates to get on board with an idea. But it's also with your in-laws on where you're going to spend holidays. And it's with your partner about who's managing the daycare schedule. And it's with your

roommate about cleaning the dishes and it's with your neighbor about keeping the music too loud. All of those are negotiations. And I think if we can do those well, it's the highest return on investment skill development we can have because it gives you more of whatever you want, more time, more money, more resources. But we have to start internally with ourselves and understand what's stopping us from starting or what's making it so we aren't doing it in the most productive way possible. Because people can almost always help us.

It depends on if they want to or not. So when John told me a long time ago that I could get more by caring about what the other person wanted, I was shocked because, but it's true. If we build a good relationship foundation with people, they will absolutely want to help us more in that moment. and they will want to help us later. But we don't think about these things as repeat interactions and how they impact our lives on a daily, monthly, yearly basis.

But if we do, all of a sudden, you're turning negotiation into a system in your life that is helping you in every avenue, whether at home, at work, anywhere. And I think a lot of people think about negotiation like, you know, I know Chris Voss is someone who wrote a blurb for the book. who I have tremendous, I actually met him for the first time this year. He's amazing. He's amazing.

Yeah, yeah, really amazing guy. And, but they think about it like, you know, some badass, you know,

kind of cowboyish dude negotiation, you know, negotiating like some, the life of somebody who's like been captured by, you know, criminals in some other country or whatever. Like, they think about it,

like, is this very combative, very, like, bang against each other thing. And what I hear you, saying is that literally almost every interaction is that we have with anybody like from you know driving your car down the street and letting somebody out in front of you versus you know like you're kind

of every of these things are negotiations and i guess maybe how do we remove the i don't know if this is the right word but like the the gravity that we put on this word negotiation it feels like a very big like like i'm sitting down at a table and we're face to face eyeball the eyeball negotiating versus just, you know, talking to your partner about who does dishes tonight or whatever, right? You know, like, it doesn't have to be this big combative, big deal. Is it, is it that we put too much, maybe we've been trained or just haven't put enough thought into what negotiation actually means? Is that, do you think that's part of it? I would argue that so far, when people talk about negotiation, they talk about it as these big things,

these big life events that you need to conquer and achieve against, whether it's a hostage situation or it's a big merger and acquisition at work or it's your next career move. It's been framed as these big things. But because it's been framed that way, people think that they're either good at negotiation or bad. And I hate that because it's not innate. No one is born a good negotiator. No one is just born confident. It's a skill that you have to develop day by day in the most micro sense where an athlete isn't just born an athlete and a musician isn't just born a great musician. They practice. They take the skill very seriously and they break it down into its smallest component and practice that component until they perfect it. And then they move on.

Negotiation is the exact same way. And that's why I think if we can think about it, it as dozens of times of day in our daily life where we're working in low stakes environments to improve it, all of a sudden, we are better when those high stakes come around. And I love the reframing of it because all of a sudden it's accessible. It's something that I can do today right now, right now, right? The first thing you could do right now based on what we were talking about with the internal negotiation is write down the feelings you have before walking into any negotiation. What are those feelings? Because as soon as you write them down, and then if you say them out loud, you are managing them and they are no longer ruling you. You are in control of those feelings.

And that means that you can take the next step, which is understanding what it is you truly want out of the negotiation. You will be shocked at how many people walk into a situation without a goal. What is it that you want as the final outcome of this conversation where there is influence involved? But if you can figure that out, you have at least a double chance of success, if not 4x, the success. So taking the time to do those pieces up front before you walk into the room is already going to make the outcome more successful. Do you think that negotiation is a life skill that, like, let's say, you know, we're not in this crazy common core, lowest common denominator. high school, you know, we'll call it primary education system that we currently live in. And we're actually teaching them skills that can need, like how to balance a checkbook

and things like that. Do you think, would you put negotiation as one of those classes in, you know, this fantasy high school that we're, that we're creating? Like, to me, it seemed like what I hear you describing. And I would say my understanding of negotiation now, not, not obviously my past, but today is that this feels like something that we should. all just be able to do like, you know, if you live in this country, you know, right in English, understand, you know, basic, you know, math skills. Like, it feels like one of those core ideas. Is that, would you agree with that? Because I think, and here's my, my, the reason for this question is to me, it seems like if I'm in sales or I'm a leader of a company, then I need to

learn negotiation. But if I'm in customer service or I'm in product design or I'm in engineering, I'm like, eh, I don't need that. That's, that's other people. That's not something I need to have. And then they end up, those seem to be, then we look at the, you know, that alpha salesperson, you know, walks around with the, you know, the $75,000 dollar Rolex. And I'm like, he's good at negotiation or, you know, she's good at negotiation, but, but I don't get what I want. It's like only because they develop the skills, right? I mean, so this is something we all should have, no matter where we sit in any type of organization or value chain. Yes. And honestly, I would go back even further. This is something that I would love to be taught in kindergarten. How do. Do we, you know, you're playing with crayons and someone comes and takes your crayons. That is a moment of negotiation. It's a moment of influence. It is a small moment of conflict and how do you deal with that?

Or you want to take a turn on the swing, right? You want to influence the other kid to let you have a turn. That's happening all of the time. Constantly, especially as a kid, we should absolutely be learning those skills early on, rather than waiting until we're adults and we think that we need them because of these big deals that we have. And the other thing I will say is negotiation, again, isn't that big thing that gets you the $75,000 Rolex, and we don't have to do it the same way that we see it on TV. We don't have to go sit down and hammer it out at a conference table.

One of the most powerful things in negotiation other than the internal negotiation, managing your emotions and knowing what you care about, is building relationships. with people and just having a good foundation so that when you do need to make an ask, they want to help you. And a lot of people undervalue that. But I had a neighbor. And we all have these people in our lives that we have bad relationships with. Oftentimes at work that we think it's just so entrenched. It's so negative. It's never going to go away. What's the point I'm investing anything in this relationship? We just have to tolerate each other. because we're at work. I've had that at work and I just recently had it with my neighbor who

ruined my moving day to my dream house because he walked up the driveway and said, you are on my property. And turned out that my driveway is an easement on his property. I wasn't technically on his property, but he just could not stand the fact that we had an easement on his property. And for the next several months would go on and on and try to corner us to yell at us about the easement, which like none of us can do anything about. And he became my like adult. I've never had an enemy in my adult life and he was just my enemy. I was like, you are my nemesis. We are just like, you know, this is never going to go anywhere. Then my mom of all people had to remind me and say, hey, listen, he's going to be your neighbor, whether you like it or not. Go take

him a cold glass of lemonade. It's hot out today. And I was like, I would never take my nemesis lemonade. That's ridiculous. And then I thought about. it and I considered it. And I was like, oh, shit. My mom is reminding me of what I teach hundreds of people every month that I need to reset the relationship. And I'm the only one who can do that. And so I did. I took him a cold glass of lemonade and I hated it. And I just like was furious inside and just humiliated that I was interacting in a nice way with this person. But then, you know what happened? He was nice and kind and accepting. And I, I started feeling better about the relationship. And I also had to do a reset. It reset him a little bit

in the relationship, but it also reset me. And we can all make that reset by the idea of reciprocity, just giving someone something small that they will value without an expectation of anything in return other than improving the relationship. And whether it is right now a good relationship and you want to keep it good, a neutral relationship that you want to make better, or a hostile relationship that you need to improve, reciprocity is a great way to start that. Because ultimately what I've found in my experience is people, you always need something from somebody, especially the people that you tend to have the bad relationships with, the ones that you don't want to interact with. And they always come back into your life in some way. So what can you do to improve that relationship?

because like I said earlier, people can almost always help us with something. It just depends on if they want to or not. So start setting the tone and the stage for getting them to want to help you. What do you think salespeople do all day? Sales is an industry that shouldn't exist with LLMs. Like chat GPT and Claude and everything else should make sales disappear because we can research the exact thing we want and buy it online. But it's still a growing industry.

Why? Because of relationships. And that is so fundamental and core to the idea of negotiation, which means that for all of you out there who struggle with negotiation, because you think that it's hammering at each other, that's not true. You're going to get way more if you have a positive working relationship and you work to create value for both people, which means it's a conversation. It's not a battle. Okay. So if I'm listening to this and let's say I'm a skeptic to the ideas that you're throwing out, I would say, okay, I bring my neighbor the glass of lemonade, but instead of the experience that you have, he takes that as a moment, a captive moment to just lay the hammer down on me. How do I, is it bound? Like, how do I know, how do I position myself, uh, solidify myself, whatever the right term is for? okay, I'm giving and I don't expect anything back. I'm giving without expectation of reciprocation. Okay, great. I believe in that. You know, but I, it doesn't, the person still tries to push. And now I feel like I gave all this to the relationship and I'm getting, I'm still

getting nothing back. How do I create those guardrails? How do I emotionally deal with the fact that I felt like I took a big leap to try to improve things and the other person just seemingly. so far hasn't wanted to adjust course or play nice. Yeah, it's a, it's a great comment because it's likely that they won't respond the first time. So here's the framework in your head. I want you to try a handful of times. And I also want you to make it something small. It shouldn't cost you a lot, right? So you shouldn't feel like you're giving them something huge. You're giving them a glass

lemonade. It's free for you. You're giving them a cup of coffee. It was a couple of bucks. giving them a pastry that you, you know, we're grabbing for yourself anyway. So make it small and something that doesn't cost you a lot and know in your head that you're going to try a handful of times. And research shows that most people's behavior will change. Not everybody's, but most people's will soften. And the idea of reciprocity is hardwired within us. They've done studies on people, on animals, showcasing that the idea that we want to return a favor or return a gift is innate. So you have a very high likelihood of having that person want to reciprocate back to you in some way. And what's even better is that we have this idea of accounting insensitivity where if I give you a

glass of lemonade, what happened with my neighbor? That glass of lemonade turned into another easement for me, if you can believe it. And I swear. And so, that obviously another easement is worth like tens of thousands of dollars versus a free glass of lemonade. Certainly a lot of lemon. But over time, you don't, people don't necessarily weigh the equation of like, I gave this and it equals this. So you will get a lot more value just by starting the momentum.

And, you know, nine times out of 10, it's going to work for you. One out of 10 it's not and chalk it up to what did I actually lose? I lost a glass lemonade. I lost a few bucks in a coffee. Who care? You know, if the total cost to you was 10 bucks, say, you know what? Nine times out of 10 this works. I lost 10 bucks one out of 10 times. That's pretty good ratio and a pretty good return for me. So you can turn it into an equation if you want and recognize that the return is still really high for you, even if one out of 10 doesn't respond. Now, the emotional labor is another piece of it, but again, you're getting a lot out of it most of the time. So I would say this goes back to the idea that we talk about, which is rejection

and our fear of rejection. And can you go out and find small ways to get rejected? This is a great example of it, right? Go give someone something, especially someone who doesn't like you and see if they rejected or not. Go to the coffee shop and ask for something special. Go to a restaurant and see if they can make you something off menu and find ways to get rejected because then you're inoculating yourself against rejection. You're building your resilience so that you can go and do these things without fear or kind of this huge emotional baggage that prevents you from making the attempt. I was listening to Chris Williamson's show the other day, Modern Wisdom. I don't know if you're familiar with that show, but he had a psychologist of some sort on the show, as he tends to do.

And they were talking not necessarily about, they weren't talking about negotiation, but they were talking about rejection. And the context is escaping me. But he shared this stat that north of 40% of men under the age of 30 have never asked a woman out in person. Like, I've never been in the same space and said, hey, do you want to get a drink with me or a cup of coffee or whatever. And like, and he was kind of, he was taking that stat and he had others to kind of show like

some of the difficulties that younger generations are having integrating into the workforce, at least certain individuals, is because they're, they're like, they're, they're not used to hearing no, right? There's just this idea that I don't, that I even have a micro loss, right? I don't know there wasn't the internet when I was growing up. So if you wanted to take somebody out, the only way you had to ask him in person, like it didn't even exist. So you don't mean like I guess you were, you had a couple options, you know, whatever.

But that idea of like never having heard no, like you always make the team because there's an A team, a B team, a C team, a D team. You know, so whatever sport you decided to play, you're always getting a yes. And in school, you know, if you don't get a good grade on the test, the teacher lets you take it home and do revisions and come back and you still get an okay. grade and like if you're kind of taking this and thinking about maybe same the younger generations in particular um who maybe just have not experienced i would say the you know i'm i'm 45 like the avalanche of nose that just were inevitable because there was no app to help you get around

there wasn't this cultural thing of like everybody gets an a or everybody makes the team those things just didn't exist like so to me the idea of hearing no i don't love it but it's kind of just the way life works. But I think we're kind of have a generation coming up here or a couple generations, et cetera, who just simply haven't experienced that. Like, their world has almost been crafted so that they always hear yes or always get some version of what they want. So if I'm sitting here and I'm listening to this and I'm going, yeah, but I don't want to ever hear no or I've never heard no before or whatever. How do you, I mean, I know you said, you know, negotiate the coffee thing. And I've heard that in different places. And I think it's a one

idea, but even that is probably too scary. Like, are there even easier wins, easier ways of walking into and practicing hearing no that someone who is unfamiliar with the term, and that's not a judgment, guys, you know, someone who's very unfamiliar with that term, how do they start to go down this path of no? Because, like you said, one of the people that you respect, Chris Voss, his whole thing is working to know. I mean, that's the crux of never split the difference is go for no, not yes. And that is such a foreign idea to so many people, particularly the younger individuals that we have hit in the workforce right now.

Yeah. I think this is really broadly relevant, especially to that younger generation. But Ryan, I would say you and I are entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs have to become good at hearing no. But there are a lot of our peers who still really fear rejection and avoid it at all costs. So I think that we all need to practice this because. if we fear rejection, we're not making the ask and we are leaving money on the table every time, right? We're leaving promotions on the table. We're leaving job advancement on the table. We're leaving,

you know, money from the car dealer on the table. And I hate that. We should never be leaving money on the table. And if you're too afraid to go and make the ask because you're worried about getting rejected, you are losing out on a ton of value. So we should all be doing this and practicing this, but you're right. With the younger generation, a lot of these skills, just general, in general, what I'm talking about with relationship building are not there. We have built not only a generation that doesn't have the resilience around hearing no or not getting exactly what they want, but also they're more isolated. I mean, studies show the level of isolation and depression is really high. And they're not connected with each other, with peers.

with, you know, friends because they have the phone and the apps and they're feeling that disconnect with everybody else. And so one thing to bridge that gap on both sides, the fear of rejection and the disconnect that they're facing, ask a friend to go out and do something, right? Don't even go and do it with a stranger. Ask a friend if they want to go for a walk. ask a friend without your phones, ask a friend if they want to go and grab a cup of coffee, right? Someone you already know that you have a relationship with, that they might not even be doing that with each other. And that might also feel scary enough that, man, we never go and do this thing, right?

We always just sit next to each other and play video games or we communicate via Snapchat with each other. Go ask them to do something in real life that's outside of the norm and see what they say. right there's an opportunity to get rejected but there's also an opportunity to start with a little bit more of that relationship building and i think they could use both of those things it makes my heart hurt a little that you said go for a walk and then positioned it as outside the norm i i know that you're i know that that's honest but it also hurts my heart a little bit um i do think that's wonderful so okay so i hear that and i go okay okay i can buy that and but what if they say no? Like, how do I not take that personally?

Do they not like me? Am I not good enough for them? Am I more of a friend to them than they are than they see me as? Like, am I not good enough? Is my time not valuable to them? Like, so that friend says, so you text five friends and all five, you know, probably just because they're busy or have other things going on are like, no, sorry, I can't do it today.

How do I then not go? My friends hate me. I'm a loser. This exercise was terrible. I'm never listening to Ryan's podcast again. It gives me terrible advice. And I'm just going to go back to a dark room in my basement and my video games because that's where I feel safe. Yeah.

Well, first, I would say this still happens to me, right? Like, I think this happens to all of us where, especially for people who are high achievers and we get the note, we take it really personally. It hits us hard. Like, I'm not good enough. I am not worthy. They don't like me. They don't value me. And this still happens to me too.

So I would say I'm right there with anyone who feels that way. Now, the way that I combat it is I always see no as a not yet. So if they do say no, you can follow up with totally get it. When would make sense? Or is there something else that you would prefer? Right? You have two options, right? When else or what else could we do?

because it might not be the right time. Maybe tomorrow they'll say yes. Or they might say, hey, I really don't want to go for a walk. It's freezing outside, but I'll go bowling or whatever it is. Or I'll go to the movies. And all of a sudden, you're turning that no into a yes. And so I always see those types of nos in any situation of influence or negotiation as a not yet.

And I have to figure out what the lever is. And this goes to the idea of their interests, right? You have an interest. your position is I want to go for a walk, but your interest is I just want to spend time in person with my friend. So what do they care about? Now it's my turn to figure out what do they like? What are their interests? Can I guess what they are? I realize my friends don't like going for walks, but they really like going out to eat, trying new restaurants. So maybe that's the pivot. We go try that instead. And now what you're doing is you're creating value for both of you based on you wanting to hang out in

person meeting their interests based on their likes and now you're rolling away from that no into a not yet that's going to turn into a yes that takes both of your needs into account. How do I put myself in the person on negotiate? One, okay, let me step back. You've heard this like, you know, you don't understand someone until you've walked a mile on their shoes or whatever, right? So I think it is probably reasonable and we don't get our heads around. I may be able to negotiate with you better if I understand where you're coming from.

But that can be a very difficult thing to do. And I think over my career, unconsciously for a long time, I was able to be successful because I have some natural skills there that had a ceiling until I started to really develop them. But I was raised by my mom for the most part. So I have at least a baseline level of empathy, maybe above standard. and but it was very on on there was no structure to it. But when I started to have more of a structural way of watching body language,

listening, researching, trying to really think about what they would want, you know, I felt better. But I still don't feel like an expert in it. That's why I love having individuals like yourself on the show. How do I, if I'm sitting here and I've bought everything that you've said so far, I'm on board, and I'm like, okay, how the hell do I understand where my friend is coming from? Like, let's just take the walk thing. So, so they said no, not now, maybe some other day.

Okay, so it's a no, not yet. But I really want them to go for a walk. Like, I really want the walk. Like, that's, I don't want to go bowling with them. I don't want to go to movies. I want the walk with no cell phones. How do I start to, how would I put myself in their shoes, right? Understand where they're coming from to get them to actually do the thing I want them to do.

Ryan, I'm going to push back on you right now because all you're doing is asserting a position. Right? That's a position. It's not an interest. Your position is I want to walk without phones, but what's the interest? Okay. So the interest is I just, I want to get to know you even deeper. I think that the conversations we have when our phones aren't around and we're just kind of

doing something simple, we connect deeper and we haven't done that lately. And I maybe feel a little disconnected from this person that I really care about. And that's why I want to do the walk. Perfect. So it's not about the walk. It's about quality time without phones. Is that right? That was, yes.

Okay. So that's where we have to unstick from the position, right? You were stuck on the position. And that's the self-work about what our interests are actually are, right? That goes back to the internal negotiation. That was not doing the internal negotiation first. You're stuck on your position. Got it unstick from that and get to the interest, the actual interest, right?

My goal, my interest is hanging out and having quality time with my friend without phones. That is something that you guys can work on together. If you're going with the position of it has to be a walk without phones, there's nowhere for your friend to go except a yes or no. That's not a negotiation. It's just your friend either saying yes or no to your demand. And I think you and I are both good at, you know, especially based on our history, making demands and trying to get people to go with us.

on the flip side, a lot of people are agreeable and might say yes, but might resent it later. So you're asserting a position, demanding they say yes. If they say no, you feel bad. If they say yes, they might resent you because they're just trying to make you happy. You're not caring about their interests. So let's talk about how do we think about their interests. We're actually very good at guessing other people's interests if we take a moment to do it. I think that the first idea here that I would combat is,

that we're either good at empathy or bad at it. I think we just don't practice it, just like negotiation. We have to stop and take a moment to think about the person. A lot of us are too busy to do that. We don't have the energy. We don't have the time. We don't have the mental capacity. But if you actually take a moment to stop and think about someone, right? We can do it right now. Like, who's someone that you had to negotiate with in the past or someone that you might have to negotiate in the future that you don't know very well. Like actually? Yeah, actually.

Yeah. So I have a friend. I invested in his company. Then his company was bought. And we have a good relationship. And I am now trying to help one of my consulting clients get in as a partner with my buddy's business. But he went from being the boss to being, you know, an executive, but not the boss, the

boss. So now he's in kind of a tough spot. And this, he had originally said, hey, I'd love to get your client in, but now he's getting friction. So now we're in this place where he kind of said he'd get us in, but now he kind of can't. And we're in this weird negotiation because he's a buddy, but there's business involved. And so we're kind of in this spot where there's a little bit of friction right now in terms of making this deal happen. All right. So tell me what you guess your buddy's interests are.

Take a minute. And then give me a list of what you think his interests are. My guess is he wants to do the deal because of me and that while it was a priority to make this integration when he owned the company outright, now that he doesn't, it's not a priority. And he's stuck in this place where he feels some obligation to me, but his priority is not this thing. And he's not really sure what to do. So he kind of keeps kicking the can. and, you know, he's in, that would be my best guess in a short answer. Try to think of other interests that aren't related to you or the consulting client.

What other interest does he have with this business, with the people in it, in general? He wants to come in and in these early days look like a rock star if possible so that he feels validate, he feels that the acquisition of his company was validated, that they made the right decision that he's what they thought he was and that he's going to have he's going to be the high performer that they purchased when they purchased his company. Anything else you can think of? I think that he would prefer to work with people he knows. I think that he wants to establish himself.

Like I said, in the company, I think that's a big one. I think he wants to be successful. I think he believes in the mission of what he was doing. and I think he also wants to make sure that he's not, while I think he wants to be successful, I also do know for a fact that he wants to successfully integrate into this new bigger culture. And I think there's a little bit of struggle there too for him because he used to be the boss boss. And now he's just one of the people. And that's a completely new dynamic that he's also struggling with at this moment.

because even if you're good at that kind of thing or done in the past is still not easy. Yeah. Look at that. We spent, what, two minutes on it? And all of a sudden, you went from one interest, which was helping you out because you're a friend to a whole slew of interest, right? He cares about your friendship. He cares about keeping his word. He also cares about credibility with this new organization. He wants to show up and have the company see him as valuable for him to still make an impact. internally in the organization, thinking about his own reputation within the organization. All those things are the things that you just mentioned. He's new. He's still getting his own bearings in the organization. Now, based on all of those interests, you just took a guess, even though you haven't asked him about it. And he's your friend, so you know him pretty well. But this is a different situation. I think that you came up with a pretty good list. And I think we all can do that if we take two minutes to sit down and actually think outside of just the little box that we

are thinking about in that moment of influence, all the other things that they have going on. Because those other things are going to impact that moment of influence with you. Because he's probably worried about credibility with the leadership of the organization and bringing someone else in that he doesn't know. Because you said he wants to work with people he knows, bringing someone he doesn't know in, and what if it doesn't work out? And he's new with the organization, and these leaders then lose respect for him. His reputation is damaged. He, you know, isn't seen as valuable to them anymore. So all of a sudden, you're starting to see it from his perspective. And that means that you're opening up the playing field to understand

that he has some constraints and how can I start communicating? to him based on what he might be thinking about feeling, but not wanting to verbalize to me because I'm his buddy and he wants to help me out. Are there other ways that you can introduce the client? Are there other ways that it doesn't impact his credibility? Are there other connections that he can make? Other people he can bring into the conversation? Other ways to make it feel less personal and more like a business transaction and an opportunity he's bringing to the organization. So all of a sudden, you're looking at the pie, and rather than your tiny piece of the pie, you're looking at the whole pie, which is your interest, your client's interests and his interests, and working on figuring out a deal that makes sense for everybody. How do I validate those ideas without making him feel like I'm putting thoughts in his head or assumptions about what his priorities are?

Yes. I love that question because that's the next step in thinking through their interests. With their interests, we always say guess as best as you can first. And then the next step is just tell them. Say, hey, man, I know that this has been dragging out. And it might be feeling sticky. I'm not sure. But here's my best guess. So what's really important is to say it tentatively.

You're not labeling anything. You're not saying this is exactly what I think is happening. You're saying my best guess is that you want to help me out because we had talked about this and it's felt really good. early on, now the dynamic has changed. And here are the things that I'm thinking might be coming up. Tell me where I'm right. Tell me where I'm wrong. So you're just sharing as your best guess and then inviting them into the conversation to tell you where you're right and wrong. And he'll, what's great about this is you start getting more information from him because he's going to riff off of it and want to

talk about it. And most people, I'd say 95% of people will really appreciate. the effort that you're putting in because you are making it tentative. You are bringing them into the conversation and asking where you're wrong. And they will want to share more with you. Yeah. I think I know, because I feel like if you do this, I don't want to say wrong, but I guess that's the best. There is a way to do it wrong. No, you're right.

There is a way to do it wrong. Because you can, like, I've seen people try to do it. do this and have it backfire, right? The other side gets the fence. All of a sudden, they're like, well, that's not what I was thinking or why are you putting words in my mouth or you know, why are you making assumptions about how I feel? And so maybe we've talked about the way to do it right. Maybe what are like a few things that kind of commonly may create obstacles or landmines in the process? Yes. So one thing, one caveat I will put out there. First, if you're trying this, do it in low stakes environments for a while because this is a pretty advanced

skill. So do it with your spouse or your partner and say that you have a decision coming up and you both have interests in it. Yes, write down their interests as your best guess and then share it with them and ask them where you're right or wrong. And practice doing it in very low stakes with people who are close to you who don't really care if you mess it up and who the relationship couldn't withstand a little bit of pressure if you do mess it up because that way you can have an opportunity to do it a bunch of times in situations where if it does blow up, you can recover. Now, the way it sounds wrong, hey man, there are a lot of dynamics going on for you internally and I'm worried that this deal may not make sense or that you're hesitant or avoiding it. Right there, what you're doing is

you're telling him what's going on. and that's where people go wrong. They make it a statement as opposed to a question. If you actually are asking a genuine question, this is my best guess, but I know that I'm wrong in a lot of these places. Can you help me out and tell me from your perspective what's going on? That's a question, right?

And it's very tentative. When you make it a statement, all people have is to get defensive because nobody wants to be told what's going on in their life or how they are feeling. Nobody. Every single person that I've ever met gets defensive when they are being told something, right, about themselves, unless it's in therapy. But like, if I'm telling you that you are feeling this way and you are facing these situations, you're immediately going to be like, no, I'm not. And that's the difference. So it's kind of like,

you just want to kind of open the door a little bit, but they have to be the one to walk through. Like it's like you can open the door with a question and then they'll give you a lot of data points simply by do they hesitate? Do they come right in? Do they just open it a little more? Like you'll get a lot from there and then you can continue to go. And I think, you know, tell me what you think about this idea. I made this decision a long time ago mentally. I was struggling with some things.

I had been fired from a job that I absolutely adored. and thought that I was doing a great job in. And, you know, different things happened. And all of a sudden, I was let go. And the reasons are the reasons I've explained them on the show before we don't even get into it. But, like, I had to do, like, a lot of come-to-Jesus stuff. You know what I mean?

Like, a lot of... I could blame my boss. I could blame the CEO. But that seemingly isn't the right way to go. So I started thinking about... I said to my... well, these are just data points. It's how I frame not taking these things personally is like everything is a data point. You know, if I say something and you smile, it's a data point.

If I, you know, if I, if I, um, you know, push in one direction and someone pushes back. Okay, that's just a data point. It doesn't mean, like you said, it doesn't mean no. It may just mean not yet or it might mean, you know, yes and or maybe and. But it's a data point. It's not this thing that comes at me. And like, I found that idea, and I don't have it flushed all the way out, I'm kind of stream of conscientiousing this idea to you, but it is the way that I frame it in my head is like, if I can think of everything as a data point and not as like a no to you, right, then it's much easier to like keep your ears open. Because if I feel like I'm coming to you and regardless of how hard I try or how I position.

it or how perfectly I position the question to keep the door like just a little bit of jar for you and you don't react the way I want. It's still very hard for us not to take that personally like, look how hard I'm trying. I'm asking open-ended empathetic questions to you. Like, why aren't you responding positively to me? Like, what the hell? And it is very hard to not go down that like, you know, why won't this guy just listen or why won't she just do what I say or, you know, why won't she be honest with me or whatever, right? We get so, it's like that old adage, like detached from the outcome. Like, how do we, how do we detach from the outcomes of these emotionally?

And maybe this is where, this is probably a good place. I want to be respectful of you and your time. Like, this may be a good place to close up our conversation today. How do we emotionally, and if you even agree with emotionally detaching from these things, like how do we emotionally detach from these different outcomes and these different experiences so that we're not constantly, living like in our own little cesspool of, you know, why not me or, you know, what's wrong with me kind of, you know, spiral that we can get into. The first thing I would say is I don't think

we should emotionally detach because those feelings are always going to be there, whether you detach or not. I think that if you don't label them, again, this goes back to the first idea of labeling the emotions. If you don't acknowledge them, they are always swirling around in this negative tornado in the back of your mind somewhere. So you better, might as well deal with it because it's somewhere rooted in your subconscious and it's going to come up in one way or another. It always does. So if you are feeling that way, deal with it and label the emotions and understand where they're coming from. Are they coming from that kind of, you know, bullied little kid inside? Are they coming from the vulnerable person who wanted, who was making an effort to connect? What is the feeling that

you're actually going through in that moment, label it and say it out loud so that you have control over it. And then the next thing, this goes back to the idea of resilience. One thing that I heard on resilience that I absolutely loved is people who have a high internal locus of control, which means that we feel like we can control our environments, right? And I think you and I are both those type of people. That means that you pivot and figure out what you can. can do with, like you said, that data point. What is it that my next step is with that data point? So instead of sitting with it, you've acknowledged the emotion, you know it's there.

Rather than letting it sit and fester, you're thinking of it as a data point and you're saying, what am I going to do with that data point? How am I going to address it? So if someone does say no to you and you made all this effort and it goes poorly and they get upset with you, what is the data point, right? That's information that I didn't do something appropriately or I often see that with emotional responses, I kind of tell people to see it as a mirror because the way that people respond to you is a direct reflection of how they are feeling about themselves. So that's another data point for you that it's not about you. It's about them, which means that you can pivot that data point to empathy once again because what they said to you is what they are saying to themselves and what

they are feeling about themselves. And if you can frame it that way in your head, all of a sudden you can realize like, oh, my friend said no to meeting with me in person, they are probably feeling so deeply isolated that even the idea of an interaction makes them freak out and scared. or my friend, you know, I tried to have this conversation with that buddy whose firm got acquired and he had a bad response. He's probably feeling a lot of stress and anxiety at work, which kind of came out in a safe place toward you where like, I don't want to deal with this right now, man. And that pivot in your mind of recognizing the emotion, labeling it, taking the data point and understanding it from their perspective about what they are

feeling and using it as a mirror makes it so that you can figure out your next step. And that gives you control, which means that you can continue to influence the situation. And it's not a no. It's a not yet. And you can find your next lever with that information. It's funny. When we're negotiating with someone, it's like we always assume they're coming from this like stalwart, no problems, no stress. like, you know, white box of like perfect mental attention and acuity in the moment.

And like, that's just not reality, right? Like everyone has this maelstrom of stuff going on in their life, whether it's relational or their kids or their parents or whatever. And, you know, or who knows, the person who's making the buying decision, they could have wanted a promotion and just got told no. And now they're like, I'm saying no to everybody because screw these guys. I mean, it's like we, it's like you kind of have to remember. that who you're talking to is a human too, right?

Like, we just, we always assume I have all this stuff going on and I'm so stressed and I need this deal and I got to hit my numbers and blah, blah, blah, and this other person is coming from a perfectly no stress, no anxiety, nothing box. And they're just saying no to me because they're a jerk. And you're like, hold on. Like, their dog could be sick. Their kid could have just, you know, got kicked off the sports team or whatever, you know, like you don't know how their day started.

They could be saying no to you simply because they just don't have the brain. today to wrap their head around what you're asking. And it does feel like, I mean, I love this. So the book is never settle, persuasion and negotiation skills to get what you want. Absolutely phenomenal. Comes out May 12th. This will be dropping right around that date, guys. Most likely either right on the date or a few days after.

So you'll be able to go Amazon, everywhere books is sold. That's true, right? We'll also have links below. So if you scroll down, whether you're watching on YouTube, listening wherever you listen, just scroll down into the description or show notes and you'll be able to find links to the book. But other than getting the book, where's the best place to connect with you on the interwebs to follow along with your journey and your work? I have my website, atia careschi.com. And on there, I mean, since we talked about emotions so much, I have a tool

for your listeners in specific, which is a slash emotion wheel. And it's an interactive tool. So for those of us who have a hard time getting discreet about our emotions, it starts with six core emotions and you can click into it to figure out the discrete feelings and add as many as you want to it to help you figure out that labeling. So that's one great place to get started. And you can find a lot of other information about me there. I absolutely love it. I appreciate you. This has been phenomenal with you nothing but success with the book. I'm sure it will be a huge hit.

And I just love the fact that you spent so much time with us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.