The Ryan Hanley Show - How to Turn Your Darkest Moment Into Your Greatest Strength | Dr JC Doornick

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comWork with Ryan Hanley: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyWhat does it take to go from wanting to end your life to helping over 300,000 people transform theirs?In this episode, I sit down with Dr. JC Doornick, known as "The Dragon," for one of the most raw and powerful conversations I’ve ever had. JC doesn’t sugarcoat anything. He takes us through his "messed up to blessed up" journey—from a cocky, successful chiropractor to sitting in a therapist's chair, unwashed for 15 days, contemplating suicide.But that moment became the greatest day of his life.We get into the real stuff:The “snap moment” that changed everythingWhy your confidence might be a defense mechanismThe three lies we tell ourselves about success (right time, motivation, belief)How to create an alter ego that can accomplish what you can’tHis journey into plant medicine and what he discovered in the Amazon jungleIf you've ever felt stuck, lost, or like you're sleepwalking through life, this episode is your wake-up call.Connect with Dr. JC Doornick:Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168Website: https://www.skool.com/makes-sense-academy/aboutInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjcdoornick/?hl=enThis show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Learning is nothing more than a distraction in the absence of action. Just be careful not to be always learning and learning and learning and putting certificates up on the wall and doing nothing about it. You will create the illusion that you're growing as a person because you're learning and knowing, but you're not actually doing. If you're going to choose action versus learning, choose action. If you only choosing one, fail your way forward. If you just spend the rest of your life as an academic and learn and go to personal growth seminars and all of that stuff and never do anything about it, you're just going to die a person that knows a lot and never accomplished a lot.

J.C., before we went live, you told me that you had the secret formula to success and that that was where you wanted to start. So why don't we get after that right away? Yeah, well, first of all, it's an honor and privilege to be here on your show. I always find myself sitting in a place where I'm doing things that I once thought I would never do. You know, so, you know, I want to call my mom right now and say, Mom, look at me now. You know, so anyway, it's an honor and privilege to be on your show at this crazy juncture that we're at, human beings.

Yeah, you know, I like to come a little bit raw and truthful because, you know, we live in a world where, you know, for the most part, people are under the illusion of how success happens. So, you know, I'm just somebody that is sitting here on the other side of navigating a big pile of crap. And I'm glad I did because I've got all the things that I ever thought I wanted. And I like to say that my story is something that I call messed up to blessed up. And I find that's an interesting topic.

And I'm sure, you know, I could interview you and you could tell me the same story. But when you interview people that sit at the table of success up on the mountaintop and you say, how did you get here, they typically point down at all the people that are at the base of the mountain and say, you see all those people, you know, facing challenges and trying to figure out how to climb the mountain, I just decided to do it anyway, you know. So if you'd like, I can kind of give you the short version of it. Love, whatever version you feel like telling today. Okay, cool.

So what's interesting, I guess, about my story. I think a lot of people will relate to is that I was somebody that was probably the person that you grew up with that you couldn't stand. And that's just because I was a successful person. You know, I was good at sports. I had a good personality. I was not afraid to talk in front of people. And I would say that I thought I was confident and I was destined for success. What I didn't know at the time is that it was really cockiness. And I later found out that the universe, you know, challenges people like me. But anyway, my journey started off where there was nothing that can stop me, you know,

no matter what I did, there was nothing that can stop me. So I had no doubt in my mind that I would ever fail, right? Because I believed in myself. I had a lot of confidence, borderline cockiness. So I chose the path of health care. It was just because I grew up in a health conscious family. My parents are both professional athletes. My dad was a skier.

My mom was a tennis player. And I just grew up in kind of like a holistic household. And we, you know, went and saw chiropractors and acupuncturists and all that stuff. I didn't even know that I wasn't vaccinated as a kid until I was older, you know. So I kind of grew up in one of those families. And to me, that was normal, you know. If I got sick, my mom would, like, you know, waft some sort of, like, sage smoke in my face and tell me I needed more water and hugs, you know. But it worked for me, and I chose the path of chiropractic.

A mentor of mine was my chiropractor. And I went to school, you know, top in my class, graduated early, got all my credentials first, always looking to be the best. and I got the dream job working as an associate for the biggest chiropractor in New York. You know, you and I share that in common. We're from the East Coast and we're freezing our butts off right now. And everything was laid out in front of me, marrying the girl down the street, you know, white picket fence on the horizon and everything. And I remember a mentor told me, he says, you understand you're going to hit a wall one day. and I just, I don't care.

I'll climb over it. I'll bust through it or anything like that. I didn't know what he meant. But it all kind of goes back to this one moment where later on in life, after this whole thing transpired, I found myself, you know, in a position where I hadn't showered in like, probably like 15 days. I was wearing a shirt with holes in it. I had stopped working at this dream job chiropractic practice, and I was sitting in front of a therapist in a chair, and she's asking me why I want to kill myself. So I just kind of jumped into the future there. And I just remember having no idea how I got there.

It happened so fast. And it turned out to be the greatest day of my life, but at this phase of the story, it was the worst day of my life. but at this phase of the story, it was the worst day of my life. And I said, I didn't know. I didn't understand, you know, what was going on. And she kind of took me back and started asking me questions, like, well, what happened? And she said, and I shared with her, I was on my way to work one day. I remember this like it was yesterday to this, you know, amazing job.

And I had been working there for a while. And I was going to have the opportunity to take over a multi-million dollar practice and Everything that I ever wanted was right there in front of me. And I was on the train, you know, the Metro North. And all of a sudden I felt something that I'd never felt before in my entire life. And I didn't know what it was, but I was scared. And I doubted myself all of a sudden. And I didn't know how to navigate it.

You know, I thought there was something wrong with me or something like that. But it was so powerful and I was so convinced of it that, that I decided to get off the train and go back home and make up a story as to why I couldn't come to work that day. And I kind of figured I would sort it out. But that started what I call the dark ages. That started a process over three months where I just completely lost my confidence, lost my sight, everything. So I mean, I spent the majority of my life 100% laser focused and you know on just kicking ass and then all of a sudden after this one day I just started to decline into this darkness and so that was the messed up part of my story and everybody was

worried about me because I for the first time in my life I said to myself my god this is what it's like to actually not just think about ending your life but consider it you know and I didn't know how to function you know my my marriage was going to be put on hold, lost the job, right? Everything. And it just compacted and it just got worse and worse and worse. And my mother, you know, who was very worried about me, took me to see this therapist, which takes me to that place. And I'd never been to a therapist. I thought they were all bullshit at that time. That's what cocky people do. But what happened in that moment is she started to ask me some questions like what happened. And she basically,

asked me a sequence of questions that led me to this space where I recognized that it was in July that this happened. She started peeling this onion and started asking me these questions. And for those of you listening, you know, these are the stories that you typically don't hear from successful people. Right. We talk about working hard and the obstacles the way. But, you know, I would venture to say that everybody's been through something real, you know. So anyway, this therapist asked me a couple of questions, and she says, when did this happen? We figured out it was July. And she says, what's the significance of July?

And I said, well, that's one of my birthday is. And she says, well, what's the significance of your birthday? And I said, well, I said, I'm not a big fan of my birthday. I don't like my birthday. And I just never liked my birthday. I never liked getting gifts or anything like that. And she said, why? And I go, I don't know.

I just don't like my birthday. So she says, okay, she moved on. And then she asked me a question. and she says, well, what about your parents? And I said, well, what about my parents? She said, well, are they together? Are they alive? And I said, oh, no, my parents got divorced when I was 11.

And in that moment, I call that, so I have a book coming out in February, and that's the first chapter, that story in length. I call it a snap moment. But when she asked me that question and peeled me back to that moment, it was the first time that I recognized that when I was 11 years, years old on my birthday, I walked in the house and saw my mom sitting at the base of the staircase in her underwear, which was not normal, crying. And it was my birthday. We were going to go to a bowling alley and all my friends were coming and everything like that. And I said, what's wrong, mom? And she's crying and she says, your father's leaving us. And I didn't really know what that man. I was 11. And my dad was always away anyway. So I kind of, as I recollect, I kind of, I kind of

just said, okay, can I go out and play with my friends? And I realized that my birthday was bumped. There was no talk about my birthday and I had to go tell my friends and make up a story or anything like that. But what happened that day is I packed it away. And later I found out that my confidence and my cockiness was a defense mechanism for something. But I completely forgot about that day until the day that I was on the way into work on that train. And it hit me. But what happened in that moment was that, and that's why I call it a snap moment, is that everything that I was suffering from, but everything that I'd been through since I was 11 kind of loaded into my brain and everything just kind of like filed into this organized, sensible package.

And I just remember this feeling of saying, well, it totally makes sense why I'm like this. and I walked out of the therapist's office. I went completely from offline to wanting to die in a second. I don't even remember the therapist's name. I just went right back online. I gained my clarity, my confidence, everything. So a message that I have to people that are going through a rough time in life is that it can change in an instant if you just make sense of things.

But I made two decisions that day, and what I'm doing is I'm sharing with you why I'm successful is because I made a decision. One decision that I made was that I'm never going back to that dark place again, no matter what. I'm going to spend every second of my day trying to figure out how to not go back to that place again. So I was going to proceed with a little bit more caution and consciousness from this day forward. But I also made a decision that day that I was going to spend the rest of my, my life, figuring out what happened in that office with that therapist and teaching the rest of the world for the rest of my life that so that they wouldn't have to go to that same dark place.

So that was the moment that I created my business model. I mean, I come to you today. My brand is called Make Sense. My book is all about this stuff, teaching people that stuff. So, you know, when it comes to this idea of peak performance and being successful, I guess my message is that anybody can, you know, I am a firm believer that success, and when I talk about success, I'm not just talking about financial. I mean, success can be whatever anybody thinks. I'm talking about full integrated success, physical, mental, financial, the whole deal. You can't skip one of those things. But it's attainable to everybody. but it requires people having a North Star and a goal, like I set that day, with such urgency,

you know, like Martin Luther King called it the fierce urgency of now, that you can't not do it. So that's the lesson that I love to share with people is whatever it is somebody wants to do, if they have a reason to do it that is important enough, and I have a way of proving to people that anybody can do it, there's nothing that will stop them. And I'm sure I could ask you what you do and what you've done to get to that place and you would probably somehow explain that you decided to do it and there was no quit involved in it. So that's kind of the lesson that lets people know who they're dealing with.

And, you know, my podcast personality, everybody knows me as the dragon. And the dragon represents all of those dark times, you know, that I used to get chased by dragons. But then I learned how to bring all of my deepest, darkest fears inside and embody them. And then I learned how to turn them into my strengths, my superpowers. So when I call myself the dragon and I put these glasses on that have no lenses, that's how everybody knows me, I can accomplish anything because I'm focused on. on that North Star that's so bright, you know. So I hope that makes sense. It does.

How does somebody know they're successful? Because you would have said you were successful before the best. And now you're successful again. Like, how do I, if I'm sitting here, how do I know I'm successful or not? You know, that's something that is going to be, I would be foolish to try to. teach people what success means because it's going to be something that anybody can decide. And if you listen to my story, you can see that my definition and my perception of what success is has changed. And I'm also in a place now. I always wear this,

this hat, and this is kind of one of my slogans. I always question and contemplate everything by saying, huh. And that's spelled HMM. And what that stands for is I haven't made up my mind about anything. So to answer your question, you know, would require that you ask me a week from now because it might change. But at this time right now, which means I'm also open to evolving and changing because, you know, when you put an exclamation point behind success and it looks different a week from now, you might think you're unsuccessful. But I would just say that it means that you've got your priority straight, you know. As far as money goes, I've had a ton of money and I've had no money.

I'd rather have money than not, but it's definitely not the defining, you know, success factor. I mean, I deal with billionaires that are miserable, but I'd like to have money rather than not. but for me success is interpreted by how my children look at me that's that's where I'm at right now I've got three kids we just adopted a little girl and we've got two boys and at the end of the day if my kids point at me with a proud look and say that's my dad that's how I define success now what they might be acknowledging hey dad takes great care of us we've got this nice house my dad's in shape he doesn't look like his friends that are his age and all of those things and they see me on stage and all of that i'm sure that's in their minds but for me my metric that

i that i measure is what my children think of me were there any or i'm sure there were but maybe what was one that stands out beliefs that pre-mess were something you thought It was paramount. Did you say pre-mess? Pre-mess, yeah, pre-mess. That post-mess you now look at and you're like, that was a complete bullshit idea. Yeah. Well, pre-mess, I was unconscious, right?

And when I defined mess, it was only when I realized how messed up I was, right? Because my whole childhood, I was under this illusion that everything was great. You know, like the Lego theme song, everything is awesome. So I'm going to call that pre-mess. So the first thing is, is pre-mess, I was unconscious. And I teach an exercise in my book called The Lifeline, where I teach people that if you were to go back to, and in my case that time when I was 11 years old,

but look at it through the lens that you have right now, you'd be able to navigate it differently. you know, you'd be able to say, you know, oh, well, you were 11 years old and, you know, your parents got divorced and obviously that's traumatic and you didn't know what to do. You didn't even know what divorce was. But pre-mess, it was always measured by my level of consciousness during those times. So I would say the biggest thing that I can see that's different about me now and then is I thought I knew. knew things back then. You know, I go back and I realize that I was always trying to be right versus kind.

I was always trying to one-up people, be the smartest person in the room. And I now can see, at the time I didn't know that, is that because I didn't like myself. You know, I've probably had some, harbored some guilt from my parents getting divorced. And, you know, I was probably depressed, but just using. tools and skills to make myself feel better about myself. So I was unconscious. I was sleepwalking through life, which I totally understand, you know. So pre-mess, the key thing is I didn't know I was a mess.

And I remember, and when my mentor told me that I was going to hit a wall and I didn't believe him, there's an example of, you know, how the personal growth industry, which kind of teaches you, you know, not only the law of attraction, but how, you know, how to put your eyes on something and go after it no matter what. So you can, you can become blind to a lot of things going on in life, you know, typically we're, we're focused, you know, you have entrepreneurs listening to this right now that are laser focused on their goals ahead of them. But what we learn in life is that the most magical things, as well as the challenges, don't come from in front of you. They come from the sides. So when you're unconscious and you're so focused on something, a lot of other things

that are important fall apart. Like I got divorced, you know, and I just had so many just knuckle sandwiches in life because I wasn't paying attention to everything. So you asked me now what I feel success is, is you can tell that my answer is acknowledging the other stuff right now. So I think that we I love the idea for I forgive you for you know not what you do I didn't know I was doing all that stuff the most common thing that people say to me Ryan when they people that knew me from then and know me now is they always say man you were such an asshole back then and I'm like I know I know and they're basically saying what happened to you and then they find out my story and you know I was and then it makes sense. Yeah, I completely agree with you on this sense of, I think, many people, especially people who feel that dull, consistent, anxiety, frustration, fear are living unconsciously.

But it feels like, especially today, but I've only lived 45 years, so I don't necessarily know what it was like before that. It's a good number. Yeah, we're doing all right so far. it feels like the world is set up to keep us unconscious. How do we break free? It's a great question, man. And, you know, we're doing this show at the end of 2025.

And, you know, everybody's excited or scared about AI and all of that stuff. And the way I look at it is that we live in a. a world right now, whether people are willing to admit it or not. So it's time sensitive. You've got people listening to this right now that are like I used to be saying, this guy's out of his mind. He doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm going to go kick ass and I'm going to get the job done. And I'm not going to tell them that they're going to hit a wall, but they probably will. But we live in a world, Ryan, that is doing the thinking for us. And we're unaware of it. You know, in the formative years, your first seven years, you know, I'm not a neuroscient.

but I know everything about that. Whatever we received from our mother, father, teacher, preacher, society, and evolution, we just took as fact, you know, because our brains were developing. And then what you do for the rest of your life is you kind of gather people around you to support what you think and everything. And now we're in a place where technology is learning what your interests are and your beliefs and supporting it even first. So a lot of people are walking around saying good, bad, evil, you know, good, all of these things, determining things and we're choosing political sides and all of these things, which is really silly to just choose one thing and not be open to the other. But what we don't know is that those decisions are being made for us. We think that we're coming up with these ideas, but we don't understand that it started off. when we were children, and we've put ourselves in environments that are feeding us.

You know, I always say what it is that we consume with regularity ends up being what we assume with regularity. So to answer your question, it's really hard. And what I know about human beings is they have to have a reason to do something. So if somebody is sleepwalking right now, they don't know they are. They think that they're on path and they're focused, you know, and that's the way we're taught to be. In order for them to wake up and change, something's going to have to wake them up, you know, like in that movie Inception, you know, the movie Inception, you know, they talk about this thing called the kick.

You know, the only way they could get these guys to wake up out of those dreams is to like push them off of a chair or something like that. So we have to experience some sort of a kick in life, unfortunately. otherwise why would you change you know um so how do you get somebody to come out of it you can't we can't nobody can get anybody to do anything but the way the universe works is if you're sleepwalking long enough you're you're going to have some sort of an accident and it's going to force you to change so if i if i could give anybody's some advice advice, you can't skip the suck of life. It's just part of it. You have to learn how to actually embrace it and enjoy it. But if somebody resonates with what I say, and I could say, go back

and give them some advice at 54 years old, I would just tell them to allow themselves to remove the right protect switch on their SD card that says no new information and ask questions like, well, what else might be true? You know, if people can allow themselves to be open and curious right now and not need to know, they'll just have a much, much better life experience, you know? Most people, as you know, are living in the future or the past, which are two places that are not even happening. You know, the only thing that's happening is you and I right now, we're talking.

It's the only thing that's real. But we spend so much time in the future that we, And we don't even know how to enjoy the present moment. I always like to say unwrap the present. You know, you keep skipping it. It's got your name on it. It's under the tree. You keep skipping it.

What people don't understand is they'll never be satisfied with any of these goals that they've set because they don't know how to enjoy the moment. So I could tell people that. I could tell my old self that. But if you're sleepwalking, you don't listen. So the way that God in the universe sets it up is it's got to, to be forced upon you, you know. But if somebody's listening right now and they're going, they're at a crossroads or in some sort of way they're open because they want more. They're

unsatisfied with life. They're in a window right now where this would make sense to them and they can start having some fun with life, you know. But if somebody's focused and, I mean, right now we're at the end of the year. Everybody's setting their goals for 2026. Nobody's going to get in the way of that. You know? So, yeah, it's. an interesting, interesting game that we're all playing. Yeah, I, I've seen you say some things around suffering and, and pain and, you know, my, what I try to teach my kids, I got a 12 year old, two boys, 12, 12 and 9 soon as 10. Got to get yourself a daughter, man, the greatest thing.

Yeah, I don't have any plans on popping out anymore. I just heard that sigh. Yeah. It's not the daughter. It's the, I don't think I need any more kids. Yeah, I understood. But, you know, I would have loved that because then someone would have actually, like, given a shit about how I'm feeling on a day-to-day basis.

Oh, my daughter just cares. Taking care of me when I get older, you know. I have no long-term safety net when I get older because the boys will be gone. That's right. But, you know, I try to teach them as often as I possibly can. And they play sports and do different things. And they learn some of these lessons the hard way naturally. But, you know, my, I grew up with baseball.

basically nothing and had to kind of scrape and claw my way out. As much as a six foot four white guy can kind of be behind the eight ball when he, when he's born, um, I was. And, um, and, you know, and my parents did the best they could, but I remember at 12 looking around my town going, I got to get the out of here. Like this can't be my life. Like, um, every male role model I have is either an alcoholic, a drug addict or both. We used to say you could leave the doors open there because the criminals, you know, lived in our town they didn't rob in our town it was like the it was like the pirates home base you know what i mean like uh you know that kind of thing um and you know so so much of my life early

was defined by the struggles that i was pressed up against and then my desire to either conquer them or not and it was always a conscious choice and i look at the way my kids are being raised and life is just so easy for them now granted as often as i possibly can in mind putting them in tough situations. But we live in suburbia. I do well. My ex-wife does well. She and I get along reasonably well.

They, you know, we've taken them out of the public schools because the public schools in New York are bananas. And we've put them into, you know, private Catholic school. And, you know, and like they don't have necessarily the same natural suffering that I did. So it's like we have to manufacture suffering so that they feel it. They feel what that feels like. how does let's fast forward to an adult okay right and this is my quick so i run into a lot of particularly men who just have this dull sense of acceptance of overwhelm and anxiety and they're kind of getting through the day and their back hurts because they're in their 40s

and you know i'm just getting older and and they've just kind of accepted the easiest version of their life to avoid the that that um the kick right to avoid the kick right they have just meandered their life that guy who in his in his most sincere moment will tell you he wants to get fit get a better job have better sex with his wife won't follow through well how do we what's the kick how do you how is a friendly way and I'm saying this for everyone listening they at we all have that friend that we would love to how what would you say to the everyone listening who has that friend How do you try to help them?

And we know we can't force anybody to do anything you don't want to do, but we can show them the way or we could, you know, put an option in front of them. Like, how do we start to nudge them down that path? It's, you know, this is the great portion and body of my work is I'm just so fascinated with human behavior. And I mean, I have my own story, but the people that I work with, come to me like that.

You know, they, I want, I want, I want. And, you know, they'll even, they even know how to go through the process of setting goals and claiming that they have a reason for it and all of that. So there's a couple of things going on. So first of all, I want to tell that person if they're listening and they say, that's me. I hope they don't know, is that it's not your fault, right? you're you're not a bad person you don't have willpower issues or anything like that um this is part of

your condition nature you know when i was a kid we used to hear our parents say if you don't succeed try and you know try and try again there's a new thing with our kids that says if you don't succeed try something else. So that comes from a misnomer. I think one of the things that we learn as children, and this is what you can do for kids, we learn this fallacy that there are three things that need to happen in order for us to succeed.

And if they don't, you don't have to try. So what they are, and this is why January 1st, you were about to see people start claiming that they're going to go do something and then not follow through. So those three misnomer's are, one, that it has to be the right time. So that's why January 1st makes sense to people, because we've been conditioned to think that it's different. Nothing changes on January. Same with Mondays, right? Yeah, Mondays. Monday.

Mondays are on Monday. I have coached hundreds of thousands of people on health transformation, and we always try to start them on a Monday, even though it's it's silly it helps but so one of the misnomer's is that it has to be the right time the second one is that you have to be motivated so a lot of people say now's not the right time I have too much going on and things like that so they they think that you need to be motivated to do something and what's funny about that Ryan is that without them knowing they're making an assumption that they have time, right? So the whole concept of the mortality mentality, which comes from the Stoics, that's an important thing for people to understand. You know,

so what I do when I hear someone say, now's not the right time. I could offer somebody physical, mental, and financial freedom, and they'll say, it's not the right time. So I pick up my phone and I'll go, hold on a second. I want to make a call. And I'll say, hey, God, I'm on, in a conversation with Ryan right now. And I just want to ask you, how much time does Ryan have? And then I hang up the phone and I, and I, he's not telling. He's not telling. So the idea of timing and motivation are really silly.

And then the third one, and this is a tough one. And this, this is mommy and daddy stuff, is that another precursor for success is that you have to believe in yourself, right? Because if I don't believe in myself, and that's what I was taught, you know, parents can say you can do anything you want and that's helpful and we can do a lot for our kids in that sense but if i don't believe in myself then i'm not going to follow through right that's why people quit so what i like to say to people and is this because the fact is is that everybody listening right now actually knows what they need to do to succeed right they might bullshit themselves and

claim that they don't know what to do so a good mentor doesn't tell people what to do they say what do you think you should do? What do you need to do? But I ask them this question. I go, how many days a year out of 365 do you wake up in the morning feeling motivated, believing in yourself, and thinking it's the right time? And then before the answer, I go, me, it's like maybe eight, if I'm lucky. Because I wake up, here I am, guy that's perceived as successful, I wake up on every morning. And the first thing that happens is I'm afraid of everything. And when my computer boots up, I don't have motivation. I have to get in that state with my morning routine. That's why people have morning routines. So that's a big

reason. And we can't get people to change, but that's why they're like that. And that's why I say it's not your fault. But the other piece of it, now that we know that, I've armed people and equip them with awareness now, they go, oh, shit, can't use those anymore. You know, if you have a goal for January 1st, I challenge you to start it today. And that's when you will feel the feels of those three things, which are an illusion. But the second one is this, and this is one of my favorite exercises to take people through. It's this concept of human beings need to have a reason to do things. And if they're pushed into a certain situation, and parents can kind of, you know, we can give the whole

example like, can you walk across a two by four on the ground? Yes. If I put it across two buildings, no, if your kids are, life's there at stake. Yes. Right. So people start to understand that what it is that they say that they want is not important enough. And they'll get that, but it doesn't mean they'll follow through. So what I do is I prove it to them. I say, you want me to prove to you that there's a version of you that can do anything. You have an alter ego. I have the dragon. The dragon can go walk out on a stage in front of 15,000 people. I just emceed a show in San Diego for Jim quick. And there was a huge audience and thousands of people out there. The average person would freak out. And I walk out there and I can take a freaking nap on the stage when I'm the dragon.

J.C. would vomit and fall down. So I say this to people, and I'll play with you, Ryan. And I'm going to prove to everybody right now that Ryan can do anything he decides. So if we're in a pool, here's me and Ryan in a pool, which is strange already. And I take Ryan's head, now that I know he's 6'4, I don't know if I could do this, but if I take Ryan's head and I push it underwater, my question to you, Ryan, is once your head is underwater and I pushed it and I'm holding it, what's your greatest desire? Get air. Okay.

So what are you going to do? You're going to try to wiggle your head loose, but then all of a sudden you realize the dragon is strong and he's got two hands and he's holding and now you realize I have an intent to hold you down. What happens to your urgency for that air, up or down? Goes up. What will you not do to get that air? Nothing.

Okay. So what I explain to people when we do goal setting is if you set a goal that is the likes of the air, a version of you will come out. A great book to read is Todd Herman. He's going to be on my show in a couple weeks. He wrote a book called The Alter Ego Effect. He's the guy that came up with the Black Mamba idea for Kobe Bryant, which is a really cool story. But he talks a lot about. learning how to channel your alter ego like when you when your kids are doing stupid things you turn into dad mode things like that but every person listening right now there's a version of them that doesn't fail and they'll die trying right but it has a lot to do with those three things and the value and urgency that they've placed so if i say i want to be a millionaire but it's a convenience and it's like, oh, it would be nice. That's different than me going out to build my business because I don't know how I'm going to feed my family.

That's a different version of me, right? So we were talking about how our kids are like lacking all of the stress that we went through. I would challenge you to say that they have it just as bad. It's just different now. Yeah, that's the society they're growing up in is insane. and kids are, you're seeing more depression and suicide than ever before. So there's an indication that it ain't easy being a kid. But we're doing a good job of parenting, but the world is a mess.

But kids are growing up right now with too many choices. And what I mean by that is if a kid starts a sport and they don't like it, or they start a hobby. I'm trying to learn how to play guitar and they don't like it. We're in a society where parents are so afraid to have their kids have a rough time. They go, oh, try something else. Let's try something else. So my daughter, she's 15 and she's got a crazy story. We adopted her. She came from a very tough life, you know, lost her, her mother died and all of this stuff. And we lived in South Africa for two years to adopt her. So I bring her back here and she got a lot of baggage. She's a wonderful little girl. So I put her in jujitsu. And this is four years ago. And

jujitsu is not easy, you know, and she's getting her ass kicked and all that stuff. And she says, I don't want to do it anymore. And I said, that's fine, but you're going to do it for six months first. So long story short, because of the little bit of tough love, she's super, super grateful. And she competes international in jujitsu now. and like destroys people and she loves it and it's changed it's her whole life so we've gotten away from that kind of parenting um i'm friends with uh gary v and he's an interesting guy to talk about parenting you know like i like to ask gary questions like you know what do you do if your kid is spending too much time on the internet and stuff like that he goes fucking take it away take it away right

he's just like one of these cut and dry guys so We could complain about our kids all that we want, but we're creating the environment and the rules, you know. Yeah, I agree with that. We've traded physical suffering for mental suffering in many regards and told people that this is a better way. And, you know, I, you know, it's tough. I feel, you know, I want to go back to your three, you know,

has to be the right time, have to be motivated. motivation to me is has been like one of the most missold concepts that self-help performance basically everybody for so long we've been had shoved down this idea of motivated get motivated and if you can just remove that entire concept from your lexicon a lot more shit gets done when you just you just remove the idea of being motivated is just just remove from your lexicon it's not i'm motivated to go to the gym today it's it's tuesday i go it's tuesday i go doesn't matter if you're doesn't matter what you're just remove that word because i i had uh i sold my company um i know you don't know that much about my story but at the end of 2023 i exited from my

company i sold it in 22 and exited at the end of 23 congrats yeah yeah and um thank you and but and as funny as this sounds it was like it created an existential crisis in my life it was the first time in over 40 years that i did not know the next thing that i wanted to do i didn't know i had no idea i this this company i kind of sold it earlier than i had originally thought and there's some circumstances to that whatever that's a different story but the point was uh i got to this moment and i'm 43 at the time and i literally had no idea what i wanted to do next i had things that i did there were things that i enjoyed. Did I want to go full throttle on my speaking career? Did I want to go full throttle on the

podcast? That I want to become a consultant. Did I want to go be an executive somewhere? Did I want to start another company? And it was like, and then I started and this is where this thought comes from as much as much work as I've done on myself, as much reading, et cetera. I started asking, well, I'm not really motivated to start another company. Or, you know, I don't really love, I love speaking, you know, I'm probably the happiest I've ever been in the kind of non-relationship side on stage since I was an athlete when I was younger. I was a college athlete, et cetera. So I was like, I love that.

I love it. I'm as happy as I can be. To your point, I've emceed events. I spoke to audiences of thousands. And like you said, it's like you feel at home. There's just something about it. Like if you just feel home there. But, man, I'm not really, I hate the travel and the airplanes.

and the being away. And like, it was this, the, the optionality, right? We all, we all, I had a guest on, got, had a guest on this guy's name's Danny Z's. He's awesome. He's, uh, um, illusionist and escape artist. He's been on every America, every got talent in the world. He's been on every single one.

Um, fantastic. That shit that this guy does is crazy. And he's an awesome dude. Met him at the Delta Lounge, um, in Detroit randomly. He was coming from a, gig and I was coming from a gig and we sat next to each other at the bar and became best friends and he he shared um this concept that that this is ultimately where I'm going because I would love for you to break this down a little more because I think it's something

that people don't have a firm grip on this idea of alter egos and what he talked about and for those who listen to the show regularly it'll be out sometime in the next couple weeks and then this one will come after so this is like a perfect way to build is you know his you know he shared this idea of like Danny Z's is not his real name. His name is Daniel Paulin, right? Danny Z's is who he has to become to unlock handcuffs in a three by three box that's on fire that's 200 feet in the air being held up by a crane over spikes. You know what I mean? Like Danny Z's gets out of that, not Daniel Paulin. And he was explaining it to me and I'd heard this concept, but I'd never really dug into it. And now, because I firmly believe in the serendipity of the universe, you have brought

this idea again, which tells me it's something that either I personally or someone who's listening to this show needs to hear, right? Why is this idea of alter egos so important? And how do you start to craft that? So let's say I've never considered the idea, which I will tell you, I'm that person. I have never considered the idea of creating an alter ego. And now I've had two people who I respect share this same idea in a seven-day window. Like, why is this so important and how do we start down this path? Well, first of all, you're, you're an example of what I was talking about before of being open and curious. So the only reason you're asking me this question and being fascinated about it is that you're a unique kind of a person that is

open to ideas. Somebody else that wouldn't listen to this right now is they're closed. You know, they're, they're, they think that they know. They don't need. like the old version of me wouldn't need an alter ego right so first of all I would just recommend you know when when that episode comes out it's going to be extraordinary and when my book comes out in February there's a whole chapter on this stuff but I will bow to who I think is just the world expert and that is Todd Herman and his book if anybody wants to buy a book on this and this is resonating including you Ryan it's called the alter ego effect and it's it's on audio as well so you know without going too far into it um

the first thing i would say is that everybody already has an alter ego so you know you were saying how do you craft this um people will notice you know sometimes people will experience the flow state for instance and without acknowledging how that transpired you know There was times where I would be asked to speak on a big stage and completely panic about it and have anxiety and just overthink it and all of that stuff. And at that time, J.C., right, that's J.C. has this problem where he, he, you know, overthinks things and tries to be perfect and all of that stuff. and then there's this other character that shows up every now and then that doesn't give a shit

you know people say here we want you to talk about this topic and you go okay and then they go well you know and it comes time for the show and they're like where are your notes do you need the confidence monitor and all that and I would be like

no and I remember the organizers would be like well what are you going to talk about and I would just be backing up on the stage saying I don't know You know, and I started to, like, analyze these two people, like, what the hell was that? To craft the alter ego, you have to first go back to looking at some things that you know how to do, but you have resistance towards them or you get tight and you have, you know, tension about it and things like that. You have to first acknowledge the pain, the problem.

and let's call it public speaking because that's one that resonates with me. Let's say you're nervous about speaking in front of people or nervous about coming out on social media or something like that. You just have to ask yourself, what scares you about it? And you start to peel these ideas, like you're afraid of failure, you feel overwhelmed by it, you know, afraid of criticism and all that stuff. And once you have those things in line, You can start to, as you said, craft this alter ego.

Like, in my case, I call it the dragon. So the assumption is that the dragon thinks differently than J.C. So I would ask myself questions like, well, what would the dragon, how would the dragon interpret fear? I'm afraid of going out and speaking on stage. And what I would figure out is that the dragon doesn't look at it as fear. He looks at it as excitement, which actually should. show up at the same way on the brain map, right?

So, and there's books on all this stuff. You can learn about it. So I would just start to craft that, that idea of, you know, what my alter ego would look like. But what's really important is, is that it's already inside everybody, but they're just not letting it out because they're encasing it, like imprisoning their alter ego with their concepts and thoughts. and all that. This is the whole nature of my work. I teach people this thing called the interface

response system, and that's in my book. And it's just about reframing things. So you got to have a reason to do this. You know, I wanted to be a public speaker, and I had a big problem. I was afraid of it, right? So I was at that crosspoint where I either run away from it or I do something about it. So that was a big reason why I crafted that. Now, you know from my story that I have experienced what I would perceive as the darkest of darkest times, where I actually was ready to off myself. So I also have this ability to recognize like, this is not that bad. You know what I mean? So that's it.

I would read Todd's book and just recognize that you can't just like decide to do something. you've got to kind of peel it back and identify ways to reframe. And if you look at the Black Mamba, when Kobe came up with that idea, it came from this place where he wanted everyone to know that he wasn't just there to be the best and beat people. He wanted everybody to know he was going to crush them and kill them. So the Black Mamba was this person he became,

where he was out there to let everybody know he was coming for them, right? Now, the black mamba is different than how he probably was with his family. So he would turn into the black mamba. And that idea of the air or if your kids' lives are in jeopardy, it could just be dad mode, you know, but everybody has a version of themselves. So one of my favorite tenants that I teach everybody, that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works. Let me say it one more time. It's who you are that determines how well what you do works. So if you're the kind of person

that's doing a lot and not following through and failing, it's just because you're not the right person for the job yet. So that's the whole nature of self-development and personal growth is not to just like get clear and excited about life. It's to evolve and transform, which very often starts with physical. We have an obesity crisis and all that stuff. So it starts with transforming yourself into the kind of person that can do that. So that's how I created the dragon. And it was just not just glasses and not just the podcast. I lost 80 pounds and I got in fantastic shape. And all those things play into it. Yeah. You know, I, I think I love. I love. I love this idea because I, you know, my, I have, I have very severe ADHD and not like

bullshit self-diagnosed. It took me, it took me a really long time. I've been fired from jobs that I loved and didn't understand why and, you know, big executive positions and, and not understanding how. I knew we had something in common. Yeah. It's been, it's been, it's been, it's been interesting. And I'm very self-reflective person, very curious and, and never understood.

Like, you know, I would get to places and I'd be like, how the, that I get here? Like, I don't understand. Like, I, good nature person, God fearing, you know, I try to be loving and accepting of people as much as is reasonable. And I don't understand. I've never, I can honestly say that if I had to stand in front of St. Peter today, I don't know that I've ever done a seriously, an intentional, nefarious act to or, for any you know towards anybody but yet these things happen and well okay well then if it happens once well that might be a circumstance but if if it happens two three times well now i have to start looking in the mirror and you start looking in the mirror and you start self-evaluating and

uh i have this wide ranging eclectic belief system and i love all these different things i think you before we went live i could just as soon talk to you about this and talk to someone about economics tomorrow and politics the next day in ancient civilizations and i know you before we get done, I want to ask you about plant medicine. I'm a huge believer in plant-based medicine, especially some of the, I have a feeling on where you're going with some of plant-based medicine, which I'm interested in. But so what I found in sharing this side of this, of who I am,

outside of the podcast, because many of the people who come on the podcast do, do share a curiosity. It's why they're willing to share and have expertise. I call them normies, very few people are willing to self-reflect in any regard, right? They, they, and I see this as like, if you, if you, if you're unwilling to look into the mirror and have an honest conversation with yourself, it's, it's very difficult to make any progress. And I have a example that I want to share with you, which is simply the other day I was talking to three of my friends and all of them are, you know, to varying degrees overweight. to varying degrees out of shape, to varying degrees unhappy with, you know, their physicality or their fitness or, you know, different things like that, their health.

And I looked at them and I said, and they're like, ah, you know, it's just getting older. And they all kind of like harrumped and pounded the table. And it was like this. And I looked at them and I go, you guys are crazy. I'm not going quietly into the night. Screw you guys. Like, if I think that microdosing psilocybin can help me, can help spam my brain and be more creative and see myself from a different angle,

I'm going to try that. If I think that microdosing a peptide or a GLP1, or I think that, you know, meditating or reading or diving deeper into my religion. Whatever is, I'm going to try it all. Because the universe would just as soon wipe me off the map and keep rolling on and could give two shits. Like you have to take, like no one wants to take intent,

like ownership of. the outcomes of their life. I feel like so many people just float through day to day, just whatever happens happens and then I'll bitch about it at the end of the day and blame my wife and blame my kids and blame my boss. And then, you know, self-medicate myself into oblivion so that I'll pass out and wake up and feel like shit the next day and then do it all again and wonder why life isn't happening the way I want.

And it drives me absolutely crazy. Why does it drive you crazy? Because I want to help people. I one thing I found about myself J.C. is that I take very little joy in my own success. When I, what lights me up is when I get a, when I get a DM after this show going, holy shit, that J.C. guy, man, that thing he said about creating, um, creating alternate personalities and how the dragon allowed him to capture this goal of being a speaker. man that just that just light bulb went off like i gotta i'm gonna go read that book right i'm gonna pick up like that to me that's the sex feels that's the sex right there not oh this episode of jc went off because everyone loved it and i saw this big spike in traffic and i made it extra

that means nothing to me it literally means nothing it's it's an outcome i'm happy about because you're helping more people but like i just it i'm always looking for from everyone i talk to like yourself the the and I know there's no one solution I'm not you know not quite so naive but I'm always searching for that one phrase that one unlock because you have an unlock something you're going to say in this pocket is going to unlock someone right and then the next guest will have something and that will unlock somebody else and the next guest will have someone who unlock somebody else and it's just the constant sharing these ideas and it I literally just I'm staring at my friends who I love to death and I'm looking at

looking at them all and I'm going, you're going to die early and you're going to die early and you're going to die early because you will not take an ownership of your fucking life, right? All super successful in business, you know, but, but I'm just like, guys, like, take ownership of this shit. Like, please, for the love of God, just your life is worth so much more, but you have to be intentional about it. And obviously comment on that, but I want to roll into because I've found, to this awareness idea that's looking in the mirror,

this big long diatribe, but obviously it's my podcast so I can do long diatribes if I want. Like I found that when I started experimenting, particularly with psilocybin, in intentional ways, not in party ways, in intentional ways, that I found an awareness and understanding

in small doses, not like some big, you know, my entire life changed in one experience, but I started to be able to step outside of my own ego and evaluate things in a way and that was one tool right have you found that in your journey into plant-based medicine and why did you go start your journey into plant-based medicine well it's a lot that's a that's a lot right there um you know I will I will say that I for the first time I've been working with plant medicine for five years and I've done more

the most. But on my podcast, make sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, I just took people from start to finish through an entire retreat that I just recently went on. So if anybody's really interested in learning, it's controversial, it's entertaining, and all of that. But let me get back to what we were saying before about your friends. It's all about timing, right? And this is, this is, This is why I don't get frustrated. Like I said, what I've done for money for 20 years is I'm a health transformation coach. I can help anybody get healthy, but they're all different. They have different starting points.

So I know a lot about your friends. And a lot of it has to do with taking the easy road and just assuming that maybe tomorrow. But what's interesting about human beings is that they all know what. they should do and what they shouldn't do. But they're so caught up in doing unhealthy things to get them, you know, to make themselves feel better or move away from unsettling things that they don't know. They're addicted to it. They're addicted to distraction.

It's just like social media as well. People are addicted to the dopamine hit. So all I would have to say about, you know, those kinds of people. some of them are listening to this right now, is that there will come a moment, and they know this, where you'll have a window of opportunity, and it could come from just being sick and tired or being sick and tired or hearing some bad news or being afraid. Sometimes if somebody's parent dies of something and you know you're on your way to that, sometimes those could be motivating factors.

But one thing that doesn't work is when they have friends that want to help them. it actually makes it actually makes them go further away so as a health coach for all these years my my brand whenever i speak to somebody has to be in service to them including being there when they're ready when when people what's the secret to success with health transformation is somebody has to be looking to do it but also ready if they're not ready they're not they're not they're not it doesn't matter and what I've decided to do is not play a role in pushing them further away. So just, sorry, just to clarify that, what you mean is not trying to get them ready.

Yeah, you're actually doing them a disservice by doing that. Gotcha, that makes sense. Because you're, you're actually becoming the reason that they don't want to do it, right? That when you're in an unconscious state and not following through in life, you know you're not. you know they don't want to hang out with people that are doing great in life they they want to hang out with people that are like them so you know they hate you because they ain't you when if if there's three friends and one of them goes out and gets in great shape and kicks ass without knowing it he's shining a light on the fact that they're not so so they will

separate themselves that's why smokers hang out with smokers and all of that stuff so um the best way for you to address those people is to never allude to the fact that they're doing anything wrong, but just always leave the door open and say, if you guys ever wake up and want to change, just know that I'm here for you. But leave it at that, leave it at that. Because they will have that moment. They will wake up with that fierce urgency of now, that lightning bolt. And that window will close fast, but if they know where to go in that moment, then they will call you. And it'll be a great moment.

And then you might go through the process of them starting and stopping and starting and stopping. It's not easy. It's not easy. But that's my strategy with people. So if anybody's listening, I mean, this is what I do on a large, I've helped over 300,000 people lose weight and optimize their health because I have a simple. program for that. But if they wanted to take the first step, all it would be is when they're ready to reach out to me and say, I'd love to talk to you about it. And then what they'll figure out on that conversation is that it will have no close. It will have no call

to action or anything like that. But for all of the people that listen, you mentioned something about this too, that consume your content or learn and, you know, a lot of people are going to make big distinctions from this and do nothing about it, right? So there's a great quote that really hits everybody and it's that remember that learning is nothing more than a distraction in the absence of action. So just be careful not to be always learning and learning and learning and putting certificates up on the wall and doing nothing about it because you will create the illusion that you're growing as a person because you're learning and knowing, but you're not actually doing. So if you're going to choose action versus learning, choose action. If you only

choosing one, fail your way forward. But if you just spend the rest of your life as an academic and learn and go to personal growth seminars and all of that stuff and never do anything about it, you're just going to die a person that knows a lot and never accomplished a lot. So hopefully that makes sense. So it's a deep, deep hole with the plant medicines, but I've done it all. You know, I've worked a lot with ayahuasca, obviously psilocybin, San Pedro, peyote, Sapo. As a matter of fact, that's the shirt that I'm wearing right now. This is the molecular structure for the Bufo frog. So anyway, why the hell would anybody do that? You know, and

kind of like you, I got to a place in my life where, first of all, I know a lot of my friends that like all of a sudden went from being ordinary to extraordinary. And whenever I see that, I cheer my friends on. I don't poo-poo them. But I found out over and over and over again some very, very successful and happy people would tell this story. They wouldn't broadcast it out to people

that they went to Peru to the jungle and something happened, right? So I learned about this and I started to get intrigued and I almost felt like I was called to do it. And my first time going was, and I went by myself to the jungle in the Amazon. I got to, you know, Lima, Peru, and then took another plane to this place called Akitos, and I got in this canoe with a guy with a bone through his nose, two hours and one.

You're just down there licking frogs, seeing what happened? Well, I didn't know what I was going to do then. I was scared as to death, but I knew that there was more. There was more. And I wasn't trying to fix anything in my life. I just was very curious. to know if all of this stuff was all there is. Because I was always curious to know,

because I would hear these stories about people like seeing small little midgets talk to them and, you know, cheetahs walking across the room when nobody else could see them and stuff. And I don't know, I guess I was just intrigued to know. So when I went out there and I experienced that the first time, and I've hosted these things now, and I've worked, I just got back two weeks ago from Peru. It's extraordinary.

And what I would tell people, very different than psilocybin, psilocybin, even if it's done in a retreat, is kind of fun. It's a nice experience. When you work with plant medicines like ayahuasca or peyote, it's not fun. It's hard work. It's by no means fun. It's not something that you do like, hey, let's go do ayahuasca. it's something you have to like process for a year at least um but what's extraordinary about it is that

it's actually something that works with what's already inside of you and it doesn't plant medicine doesn't do something to you what it does is strips away the things that are preventing you from seeing things that's what's interesting about it so it would be foolish for me to explain what it's like to do that. But what I have learned is that there is a lot more going on even in this space between us right now than we know right now. And I've learned that through plant medicine. And I guess the biggest value that it's given me, it's given me some great insights about life. And I've dealt with a lot of childhood trauma and mommy, daddy stuff and all that stuff. But the biggest thing is, is that I don't really give a shit too much about stupid things anymore, you know.

I realize that human beings are walking around thinking things are urgent and important that don't matter at all. You know, so when you gain access to how extraordinary it is right here in this moment, I call this the generous present moment. that's why I say unwrap the present it's the only place that life's actually happening right now right here with me and Ryan nothing else right and when you learn to live in the present moment and recognize how extraordinary it is you won't spend another day thinking that you've got an unfair shake at life life is amazing life is just extraordinary it's a miracle that we're even here right now And if you can learn how to live like that, and, you know, I teach this process called the sorting filter where you can run things that people say or events that are happening in the world and all that through a filter where you ask questions like, does this really matter? Does this support what I want? Is this what's important to me? What else might be true? All that stuff. You'll start really enjoying life. And when you become, let's circle it all the way back to alter ego.

When you become that version of yourself, that doesn't get distracted, that doesn't, like if somebody comes up to me and says something nasty to me or somebody tells me they're going to do something and they don't do it, my knee-jerk reaction will be what most humans will be like. But I will very quickly be able to realize how insignificant it is and how I only focus on things that I only focus on things that I'm. I can control versus not control. So plant medicine, I don't recommend anybody does it because it's something that your number will either come up and you'll be called to it or not. And obviously, you're starting that process right now. And I'm excited for you. But it's not something that I ever tell someone they should go do because it's heavy shit.

It's really heavy shit. I was called to do it and there was no choice. I had to go do it. God, I have a wife and a family that supports me, you know, and it's changed my life forever, and I'll, I will continue to do so. Dr. J.C. Dornick, the Dragon, my friend, this has been an incredible conversation. I appreciate you so much. I know, different, I know there's going to be a lot of people who've listened to this

that want to go deeper into your world. Where do they do that? How do they do that? So I've got a substack. Everything is focused on the brand of Makes Sense. by the time that this posts, you know, my makes sense book.com will be loaded. So I've got an extraordinary book coming out. Or you can just listen to my podcast.

It's called Make Sense with Dr. J.C. And you'll never be able to forget it because it's just the yellow background with these glasses. And it says make sense. But yeah, more important than that, reach out. Reach out. You know, I'm the kind of person that I'm overwhelmed. with receiving messages, but that's my favorite part of the work that I do is actually connecting with people, even the ones that want to yell at me. I want to speak to you as well. I love you.

Friends, I'll have everything that Tracy just mentioned in the show notes. So whether you're watching on YouTube, listening wherever you listen, just scroll down. You can find it or I'm sure if you Google, you will have no problem finding him. My friend, this has been tremendous. Just thank you for your time. I appreciate it so much. Good to get to know you. And I'm starting to play with your podcast too. And recognizing that this episode is probably going to be like a what.

It's going to be a good one. People are going to love it. Thank you. How was that?