The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 009 - How to Change What People See with Tamsen Webster

Episode Date: October 6, 2019

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comTamsen Webster joins the podcast to explain how we change what people see in order to turn ideas into impact. https://ryanhanley.comLearn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's guest is Tamsen Webster. Tamsen's a keynote speaker, a message strategist, but more importantly, she fans the flames of big ideas and helps people and organizations get those ideas out into the world in a way that creates change, or as she would put it, creates the conditions for change. I love the way that Tamsyn Webster attacks a problem, the way that she tells a story, and the way that she helps people bring their ideas into the world. And it is just my great pleasure to share Tamsyn and her work with you today. Let's get to it. You know, you say right on your, right on your homepage right there, I changed the way people see. Like, what does that, what does that mean? Because that, that to me, I could take two or three different things from that. So maybe just let's start there. The simplest way to think about it is I think if I have figured anything out in this world

is that I found a more reliable, though not 100% way to help someone shift their perspective on something. And so what I mean by I change how people see is that I figured out ways to help us figure out how to change how someone sees the world. And that comes from a deep-seated belief of mine that if we can change how someone sees, then we can change what they do. Because what someone does is absolutely driven by how they see the world. So if we can change how they see the world, then we can change what they do. I, you know, that I was actually just having a conversation the other day and someone was asking me about tactics, like just in general about whatever the topic was. I can't really remember. And I kind of, in a non-rude way,

hopefully, I said, I really don't want to talk about tactics and not that I don't like that. And it's fun. But I really would rather not like dive into the nitty gritty of some tactical thing. And I really, let's take a step back and really think about the why that that's kind of how I phrased it in that time. Although every time I say that, I feel like I'm plagiarizing Simon Sinek for some reason. But what I just heard you say is, you know, if you can, changing the way someone sees the world is really changing what that thing inside them is, that's viewing them. Is that right? Like, yeah, I mean, how we see the world. So I think a lot of times we try to simplify this a lot. And I get that. I mean, we all want to make things simpler. And Simon's work is incredibly powerful with, you know, find your why. And what I find is that that's actually hard to find if you don't know why your why is what it is. And so kind of how I describe what I do to people who are familiar with Simon's work is that I help people figure out the why behind their why. Like, why is that your why? Why is that your why? And so the way I look at how people see the world, their point of view,

their mindset really has three primary components. I'm sure other folks could put it different ways, but I look at it this way, that how you see the world is a combination of what you want, what are the things that you're pursuing, what kind of problems do you solve, what kind of things are you drawn to? Second, your beliefs. What guides how you do that? What are the thoughts and the things that you have in play that really control and guide and are your North Star when you decide how are you going to pursue what you want? And then the third piece is the perspective that we take.

What are you focusing on as you're trying to pursue those things based on what you believe? Where does your focus tend to go? So for instance, I know that I have like a moth to the flame. I'm drawn to gaps, right? I'm drawn to particularly kind of gap between potential and reality. But I know that if I'm looking at any particular situation, that's what I'm always looking for. The perspective I'm looking for is what aren't we seeing? Where's the gap between where we are and where we want to be? And I think everybody has that. And so when we talk about how people see and what creates your why, my experience has been that really is this fairly unique conversation, a combination of what people want, what they believe, and the perspectives that they're taking on both.

Why do you think, in many instances, when that gap, it feels like that gap is created because I have a want, or that may be over here, but my perspective doesn't align with what I think that I want. And how much of that is a change in perspective and how much of it is a change in maybe what you actually think you want? Like sometimes I think I want things and then maybe I get them and I'm like, that's not what I, that wasn't what I actually want. Yeah. Like how do you kind of balance that between maybe a change, changing perspective versus changing maybe what your actual goal is when you're, when you're thinking about the gap in between?

That's why I find that it's the, you know, the, the, the kind of this want, this belief in this, um, which I often refer to as the truth and the con and the context of the red thread, um, and the perspective. Um, that's why that three is so powerful, that combination of three. Because what will happen is of those three, here's the important thing to know, that the wants and the beliefs are the hardest to change. Those are the ones that are really kind of the lodestones of who we are, what we want, what we believe. It's not that those things don't change

over time, but they're typically much, much slower to change over time. Perspectives, for whatever reason, we don't tie those deeply to our identity. And so there's a lot easier to change. Now, to your question about, well, what happens when, maybe it isn't, how do I know whether it's just the perspective or the want? That's really where the belief comes in because the real test is if you can put your want and your belief up against each other and they're still saying go forward, then what that usually does is force a change in how you're looking at something, right? So if you say, well,

I still really want this and I actually believe this to be true, then the only thing left for you to figure out a solution is changing the way that you're looking at it. Sometimes you say, well, I really want this. I believe this to be true. And then when you kind of really dive into that belief a little bit more, then you're like, actually, no, that's actually not what I want to do as much. So I know this is all super conceptual. So it was probably helpful if we think through an example, but that's the kind of conceptual answer

to what you're asking. So one of the questions that I wrote down when I was preparing to talk to you today was around the idea of kind of big ideas. And one of the things that if I were doing kind of an introspective analysis of myself is, I feel like, you know, maybe I've, I've never had a big idea. Or I had plenty of ideas. I have goals, I guess, for my life. Really, I just like working hard and helping people.

I don't know that like someday I want to be on the TED main stage. Like that sounds cool, but I wouldn't say that that's like a goal that I have written down even though I'm a speaker. So and I've also never felt like I've had an idea that was big enough for that platform, if I'm just using this as an example. So how do you walk someone through a process where they better understand what their ideas are and maybe which ideas are actually valuable or which ideas have the merit that's worth diving deeper into and kind of building up? I love how you're asking that. So value, in my my view is contextual. And so when I'm working with clients on this, I describe the people that I'm for as people who are driven by an idea that's

bigger than themselves. So it doesn't have to be one that's going to be changing the world, but I don't work with people who are just in it to win it or just to grind and hustle and make all the money. And that's fine. It totally is fine. They're just not my people. I love for that stuff to be a side effect of they actually want to do something else. There's some other idea they're trying to get out there and pursue. So when it comes to how big is the big idea big enough?

One of the things I've been talking about lately is just, you know, we want to make sure that your ideas is strong enough to build on. But the first question I'm all, I'm all often always asking folks is what is it that you're trying to build on it? Um, because if you're not asking for the 10 main stage, then the idea doesn't have to be that big. Like the standards are for it are different. If you're just trying to figure out what will, you know, help one of your clients get through their work a little bit easier,

that's totally fine. Again, that's an idea that's bigger than you. And so that's, so if it's, I'm trying to, we're trying to open up a new market, or we're trying to get the attention of investors, or we're trying to make sure that we're building this business for the long term. That's actually where we have to start. Because, you know, the, you don't need to, the idea doesn't have to be any bigger than what you want to build on it. You know, that's it. That's what you're trying. So I always start with what's the outcome that you're looking for for you personally or as a business? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to sell? What are you trying to gain? Who's going to pay you?

Where's that money coming from? And then secondarily, because this is important to who I'm working with, what do you want that idea to do for other other people and so we always start there do you need to have the big idea before you start like at what point so if I'm if I'm sitting here and I'm going I I I love helping people I love uh I I was a paid on the road speaker for 10 years even though that's technically on pause right now um And I miss it every day, even though I love what I also do, just in case anyone who pays me today is listening. But, you know, I guess my idea is, or my question to you is like, when, what is the minimum viable bigness of the idea that I can move it up to the next level. Does that question

make sense? Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. I totally get it. Like I said, you know your idea is big enough when it can fit what I consider to be the minimum viable case for it, which is what I call the red thread. A lot of people, so it frustrates me to know, and I still don't know the contrast here. So I have a good friend of mine that I often collaborate with when I'm working with professional speakers, because he does the kind of speech writing performance side of it. Wonderful man named Nick Morgan. And he says, you know, Tamsin, you think about ideas structurally. And I'm like, okay, yeah, but what's the other alternative? And he's like, I don't know. But he's like, but nobody else looks at ideas the way that you do. And so, and I do, I mean, I really kind of, that's,

that's how I look at it is like, what's the structure of the ideas. Ideas have a structure. That structure is reliably the same because it's the structure of how we as humans make, make sense of the world. And so, you know, the, the minimum viable bigness of an idea is whether or not you can, you can fulfill the structure of it for the outcome that you're looking for with the audience that you want to serve. I mean, that really, it's as simple as that though, as probably any number of my clients will tell you, that is not easy work because

we don't think of our ideas structurally. We just kind of think of them in kind of loose conceptual terms of what we want them to do for us or kind of what their topic is. But a lot of times we actually haven't really fully understood what I see people as just not really looking at how their brains came to that conclusion in the first place. And what I know to be true is that in order for you to act on my idea, your brain has to go through the same steps. So if I don't know what the steps are for my idea, I can't expect you to go through those steps with it either.

You know, for me in the maturation of my own speaking career, and then when I came up against your red thread idea, and I started diving into that a little bit. One of the things that I found very interesting, just comparing the early part of my career when it was like, someone will pay me to talk about marketing. Okay, I will go, you know, and it was just, it basically was just, here's how I did it. You know, barf, here's what I did. Hopefully someone takes a note that helps them. And, you know, I tried to be self deprecatingly funny enough that they would pay me again someday. So that was really my whole that was the whole structure of how I did it. And then from from being part of the speaking spoke group, which

we're obviously both part of, which has been a gift, from getting to know Marcus Sharon a little better and other kind of mutual friends that we have and watching them and learning from them and, and, and this idea of structure, I kind of started to do it not in the, in the, in the, I'll say formulaic in a very positive way that you outline it in your, in, in the red thread, but like in a, in a way that, that allowed you to say, okay, this isn't just like a barf of what I did. Here's actually how you can take this idea and use it for yourself. Because I guess early on, there was an ego in if you do it the same way I did it, you will have success. And what I had to learn the hard way was that my idea to you is ultimately going to be passed through your own personal filters, even if it's perfect in the way

that it works for me. And that's a very hard, I feel like that it's not intuitive for many people that thought like I had to have people come up to me and go, I hear you. I get that it worked for you, but I'm not really sure how to make it work for me. And it was that hearing that enough times that I was able to kind of start to morph it. And that is the golden, that is the golden insight there because what I see over and over again, it is very much what I talk about now when I'm giving keynotes is that, you know, a lot of times when we want people to act on something and again, whether it's just we're marketers and we're trying to get them, like take the next step down the funnel or we're speakers and we've got this big idea or authors and, and we've got a book, or whatever it might be.

We want to drive action from that. That's why we're doing it. I often say that ideas are built on hope. We don't have them unless we have a hope for them that they're going to do something else. And as we land on this idea, this is kind of this invisible process that our brain goes through, we've built this case for it. Like when you got to your success, you said, this is awesome. This works. And so I know because it works and I got all these benefits from it, that's why you should do it too.

Well, that's your case. But what I have found really, really powerful about the way to go from not just getting someone to act on an idea, but to adopt it as their own, is that what you actually have to do is the hard work of building their case for your idea. You have to build the story that they will tell themselves about the idea, which is all the things that, yes, that it's possible. That's great. That's what your story is. But they have to come to terms with whether or not they believe it's possible for them. And critically, whether or not it's worth it. And whether or not it's worth it, meaning, you know, not only just kind of classic ROI, but sometimes the way we present information means that we're asking someone to

change one of those deep-seated wants and beliefs. And nine times out of 10, if we're trying to move one of those, people will not consider it worth it. Because it's just, that's just, it is too emotionally and psychologically difficult for them to say, well, of course, like, how could I have missed this obvious solution the whole time? Because that would make them somehow question some deep-seated identity of themselves as a smart, capable, good person. So it's so funny because we want this change. We believe in these changes. We believe in these ideas. We just want to give them to people. But we can't just give them to people. And in essence, what we have to do is give them the pieces of the idea and let them come to that conclusion themselves.

If anyone's listening at home, and I shouldn't say if, the people that are listening at home, that's a fairly minimizing comment I just made about my own show. Rewind that last part. If I can say anything that I learned into a much smaller extent than than Tamsen for sure. But like, that idea trying to sell digital marketing to and you want to get bludgeoned in the face, sell digital marketing to insurance agents for 10 years, like that concept that you just described, which I could not have described with the conciseness, but yet power that you did. That was like, that was for the first five years, it was, I was out there going, hey, guy making $400,000 a year, you need to completely change the way you're doing your insurance agency work,

because this 27 year old knows better than you about Facebook. Like, it, you know, having that was a hard lesson, like just getting punched in the face with that lesson over and over and over again. And then finally, I turned it and again, like you said, so I can say from first, at least some experience, I've learned that lesson. And that is really powerful. It's like, they're not doing anything wrong, because they're sitting in the audience. And that, that was, I think that's our first instinct is you're here because you're doing something wrong and I'm going to fix you. And that's, that's just the absolute. So dangerous. Yeah. I mean, it does work sometimes. I mean, that's the thing. It does

work sometimes. And I think that's where the sexiness of it. And the thing is that it does, it does reliably work in the short term. I mean, you know, that is why, you know, that's why, you know, FOMO works and it's why, you know, FOMO works. And it's why, you know, raising the stakes works. And it's why making the pain of the status quo, exceeding the pain of chain works. But from what I've seen, it does not work long term. Yeah. And so if you're backfill, right, you need backfill. I mean, the thing is, like someone is going to sit there with this choice, and maybe you push them into it, it because essentially that's what happened. And then they're going to sit there and then they're going to have to decide for themselves, well, were they wrong all along?

And our brains are just most of the time not wired to let us say yes to that question. Like we just don't know. And so what happens then is they start to question the decision. That's where buyer's remorse comes in. That happens more than 40% of the time in B2B decision-making, 80% or 90% of the time, depending on what sets you look at for B2C. It happens all the time. And so they'll either question the decision, which gets in the way of loyalty and what gets in the way of retention from a customer standpoint, which we all know is kind of missed opportunity as far as retaining profit. But it also means that the person they're most likely to blame in this equation is you, like whoever sold it to them in the first place. And so this is why over time,

sometimes companies see this kind of reduced ability, not just like they start to see churn, but they start to see a degradation in the market of how people look at them. Well, that's why, because all of a sudden they're like, where's a strong foundation that I as a buyer can stand on and feel good about myself about this decision long-term? And I think we've just, maybe it's, I don't think it's Pollyanna. I'm sure some people will listen to it and say that it is, but I think we've just got to be more focused on how do we, how do we sell for the long-term? How do we make sure that people feel confident in their decisions long-term? How do they make sure that they feel good about us and what we're telling them and themselves long-term, because that's the only way that they can sustain a long-term change.

I could not agree with you more. I don't think there's anything Pollyanna about that whatsoever. And I think there's more people like yourself who, who, who need to be talking about this idea of thinking long-term. It's something that I think it's the only way to win. And I also think that there's a pendulum swing back to this mentality because, you know, when digital, and I think, I don't want to blame social media, but just the idea of the internet and the fastness, the immediacy of digital in general. I think people thinking about every aspect of their business as now, now,

now, now, now I can track now I can see results now. And it almost created like a, like an anxiety to every single day, every single decision, because everything felt so epic in that moment. And I've, I mean, if, if, if I know that I have had to work out of that. At different times, I've just felt like, oh my God, I wrote this blog post or I made this decision or I sold this product. And it wasn't this immediate change. And it doesn't allow you to open your mind up to these larger conversations. And when you see someone who does, you ask yourself like,

man, how are they able to think through this problem? It's like, cause they literally took a step back and said, I can let go of today and think about tomorrow and a week and a month from now. And even though maybe I, the immediacy of every moment isn't happening, that activity, what I actually produce on the

long term is more valuable. And it's just funny, you are literally the fourth person that I've interviewed in the last three weeks, who's made it a point to bring up this idea of long term. And I think one, I like to believe it's the quality of the guests that I bring on the show. The other side of it is age too. It's, it's, I think it other side of it is, I think people who are really thinking deeply about business today are thinking like you are. And I feel like it's very meaningful. I think we need to shout it from the rooftops as much as we possibly can. I mean, very, very often efficiency in the long, in the short term leads to inefficiency in the longterm. Right. So if you're optimizing, optimizing, optimizing, optimizing right now,

right. It's like you are, you are actually missing out in a lot of ways, potential opportunities in the longterm because longterm is by definition inefficient, right? Like it is by definition inefficient. And yet the things that you typically businesses care about long-term retention, profit margin, sustained revenue, those are things that are reliant on a long-term focus with an excellent short-term execution. And that's what we're getting wrong is that if your focus and your execution are both on short term, then you can never execute on the long term. And so we kind of have to keep the focus on the long term, execute for the long term in the short term, and then you're going to generally be a lot more effective in that.

I mean, it's the same kind of thing, whether you have kids or if you can remember when your kid, it seemed like time went so slow right like i have two little kids and you know they're nine and eleven and they'll remember like these little teeny tiny details a day because you know they've only got like nine and eleven years of memories to compare with like you know and then they're like well don't you remember this little tiny teeny thing that happened i'm like nope you know but it's funny to see them now start to get to a point where they're now not starting to remember everything. They're like, really? We did that when I was three? I'm like, yeah. And so it's the same kind of thing. When you get older,

it's like the time starts to feel like it goes much faster because you have that many more inputs in order to start to go, ah, okay. So, you know, either like, you know, with, you know, the day-to-day trauma of an 11-year-old of like, oh my gosh, my friend didn't talk to me today. You know, for them, it feels like life and death. And for us, we're like, that's probably just a little faith, right? And I think that's, we've got to be thinking

about how to do that in kind of in business as well business as well and in this whole concept of action and change and personal life. Yeah. There's two quotes that come to mind about this particular topic. One is from James Clear. Are you familiar with him? You wrote Atomic Habits. He said, and I literally have this I guess my note diary thing of quotes that I like adaptation over optimization, like at all costs, like it's, it is much better

to, to, to, to learn how to adapt and adjust and course correct versus optimize every aspect of your, of your life, because you're going to miss the bigger picture was the context around that particular quote. I love that. And the other one is slightly more cliched. Um, but I also think has tremendous value and it's from it's from Gary Vee do things that don't scale Seth Godin also said it too but like you know that that I hold those two concepts in my mind like think about

the things that don't scale on a day-to-day basis which is like picking up the phone and texting a business partner or a former client or your mother and just being like, you know what I mean? Like these things over time, these little touches, which in the moment is picking up my cell phone and sending a text message when I shouldn't be writing a business email. Is that optimized? Absolutely not. That's not optimized. But if all of a sudden someone who I enjoy in business or in life, or it's just someone who adds value to my life that I want to share that with just hitting them with a quick note. It's not optimized in any regard, but it absolutely positively helps you be a happier, more abundant person in your long-term life. And we're just

like the, it just, this, this kind of stuff from a leadership perspective too, like drives me nuts. I hate over-optimizing my employees' days. I just hate it. Yes, absolutely. Preaching to the converted. You know, my whole approach basically says that we have to sit and understand from your audience, your customers, your prospective clients' perspective, why what they're doing right now already makes sense to them. Because they would not continue to do it if it did not make sense to them at some level. They wouldn't. And, you know, I said something in my newsletter last week where I said there's no such thing as doing nothing. There really isn't because nothing, quote unquote, is simply doing what you've already been doing.

And so that's the thing. People don't just stop doing something. Nature abhors a vacuum, which I think is why 21% of the time, I think it's Miller-Hyman's research that says that 21% of the time, in B2B decisions at least, that people go with the status quo rather than anything else. So, you know, they don't go with your competitor. They do nothing, like nothing. And so that's, we have to sit there and go, why would they already be doing what they're doing? And that is a very inefficient process. And yet, once you unlock why it is that your clients and customers believe that their current, that current status quo is the best way to solve a problem or achieve a goal, only then can you understand the path to shifting the perspective that will lead them to do something different. Because you can't change the way someone sees if you don't fully understand how they're looking at the world right now. You won't. You can't. You can't. And by the way, they're not going to listen to you until they understand that you understand their perspective 100% and respect it. That's super key. And that's what I don't see enough of in marketing and sales messaging in particular is respecting someone's current view. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to understand that the vast majority of people

out there are smart, capable, and good. They are. And even if you don't believe they are, they believe that they are. And even if you don't think that they believe they do, they want to be seen as that. And so no matter what, you can use that as just a guiding star to just say, okay, let's start from the assumption that people are already smart, capable, and good. Why are they doing what they're doing right now? And given how they look at the world, why would they convince themselves that this other thing that I'm suggesting to them would make even more sense than the thing that they're doing right now? Telling someone they're stupid doesn't get them to buy twice. Oh my God. No, exactly. Once maybe, twice. When you tell them they're stupid again,

they just chose you. They're not going to buy you again. Like that's just, you know, that's always, well, whatever. I, I, I, again, now you're pretty, I'm the converted on that message. I can 100% agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's just interesting to me because now we're starting to see the research coming out about the challenger sales methodology. For instance, it's starting to say, well, actually doesn't work all the time. Well, no kidding. Because actually what they're finding, the research is showing that it's good. It's good for unseating an incumbent, but once you're there, you have to change your approach entirely. You're not challenging them anymore. Because as you just said, you continue to challenge them. It's like, at what point are they going to feel like they made the right decision?

At some point, you have to go, okay, you're with us now. Let's now make sense of the situation. Gardner just put some really great research about this. How can I help you feel confident about this decision? Not confident in me, the person who's telling you, confident in you, that you made the right decision and that you're capable of carrying it out. Like that's what our goal should be. There's one piece of what you had said that I would just like you to dive into a little

more, just from whatever thoughts you have on it. You said you have to put yourself in the mindset to respect and understand their current state. I feel like that is an incredibly difficult thing for many people to do. And maybe something that doesn't even come intuitive. Like you may say, okay, I understand that you are in this current state, but having respect for the fact that they made a decision to put themselves in that state, even if you don't believe it's where they should be. Like, can you just talk a little bit more about that? I think that is so incredibly, I think it's a nuance to what, to this process that is crucial that some people might just skip over.

And if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Sure. I, and there's all sorts of different ways. I'm trying to figure out like my brain, it's like, dude, which way to like grab onto it. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's an official name for it. It's called radical empathy, which I think would scare a lot of business people off.

So I don't often like call it that. And I found out that that was the name for it after I had already been arguing for it. So I was like, I always love it when I find that there's an official name for something. I was just like, this seems like a good idea. People are like, yes, actually this works. And there was a lot of really interesting research studies that were done about how people become open to change. And they don't become open to change until they feel like their current view is not only understood, but also respected. Like that's the thing. And so

you're right. It's a very difficult thing for people to do, not because people are not, you know, empathic or empathetic to begin with. I mean, that's it. I believe empathy is a skill. I can, I believe anybody can, can move the needle on that. I, you know, I think that in a lot of ways, the process that I work through with clients is a way to help them develop that skill. But the thing is that we suffer from, all of us suffer from the curse of knowledge, right? Once we have decided that an idea is a great idea, we forget that the fact that there was a time when we didn't think it was a great idea either. We didn't either know about it or we hadn't been convinced yet. And we just, that's just how our brains work. Like it's nobody's fault, but it's

just like, once you've, once you've become an expert, once you've reached the decision about something, it's absolutely right to you. So here, you know, it's a, you know, the way I often describe it is that we're, you know, we're not based on how our brains work and how we make decisions, we don't do what's right, right? Even though that's what we believe we do. We believe that what we do is right. But that we choose to do the right thing to do. But what actually is happening in our brain is that our brains are constantly telling us stories. So that makes it so that it decides that the things that we are doing are right by definition, because we are doing them. Like that's the story that our brain is telling us. And so, as you said, like people, people don't like to be,

you know, people don't like to be wrong. They don't like to feel stupid. They really, really don't. This is a deep, deep set of human need. So if your goal truly is to create that long-term change, if you believe enough in your idea, this is to me the test, is that you have to be willing to make some other case for it other than your own. You have to be willing to kind of lose the quote unquote battle and win the war. You have to be willing to do the work of seeing your idea through the lens of someone who doesn't agree with it to start. And so, you know, it sounds like that could be difficult for some folks, but I mean, I really have found that there's a way that you can kind of slowly go through and ask, you and ask a series of questions that just help people start to go, oh, well, yeah, okay. I get why they would do that.

Because it really comes down to perspective. What do these people want? What do they say they want? Because you can't solve a problem. You can't solve the problem you know they have until you solve the problem they say they have until you solve the problem they say they have. You have to start there. So what problem do they say they have? Now, you know that your thing is potentially an answer to that problem they say they have. So what are they doing now? And not just what are they doing now, but why are they doing that thing now? What perspective are they taking? What are they focusing on on why is it that in there as they you know when they go looking for that answer that question why is it they're focusing on X rather than why why are

they doing that and you have to take off the table the fact that they're stupid or ignorant or crazy no you you have to do the work of assuming that there is a good positive, sane person behind that decision. Why would they do that? What are they looking at? Why do they believe that's the right decision? Because it's only then that you can find a perspective that is so consistent with how

they're looking at the world, but opens up a new path, right? So you can say, I mean, even just something as simple as like, if you're trying to someone's like, I don't know, how can we get more productivity with our team? You can say, okay, well, to the point to the conversation, Ryan, you and I have been having is a lot of times we focus on efficiency, you know, we want productivity. So we're going to focus efficiency, we like quicker, faster, better, whatever. And so if we can say, yep, all right, in pursuit of productivity, you're focusing efficiency, right? Yes. Okay. Well, there's also this other piece of efficiency, would you say, which is effectiveness, which is really also what we're trying to get with productivity, right?

Wouldn't you agree? Well, yeah. Okay. So we want to make sure we get efficiency and effectiveness, right? So now you see what we've just done is we've introduced, we've named their problem. We've accurately assessed part of what they're looking at for it. We've introduced something else that's consistent with what they're doing that actually is a way to get, is part would agree that haste makes waste. So why isn't that also true with productivity if we're just focusing on efficiency? Right now, you wouldn't say that to them that way, but that's the way you get to it. You say, well, wouldn't it make sense if haste

makes waste that we want to make sure that we are then planning effectiveness into our efficiency practice? We want to make sure that we don't lose that, right? Right. Great. Well, let's talk about how you can do that. And here's how we can help. You see how you've done that. You know, we've had that conversation now where at no point did we make them wrong. You know, and to me, that's just deeply important. And it is, it is, it is possible to kind of just start to do that work. It's not always easy, particularly in the beginning. It's really important sometimes to have outside views on that. But you can even do that with a new, somebody new on your team, right?

It doesn't have to be an outside person, but it can be somebody who's just hasn't fully succumbed to the curse of knowledge yet. Man, I'm glad you use your skills for good and not evil because I'm going to be buying either way. It's dangerous. All right. So I, I'm glad you use your skills for good and not evil because I'm going to be buying either way. It's dangerous. All right. So I want to be respectful of your time, but there is one more topic that I want to dive into because anytime I have a speaker on the show, being that this is my favorite to get to talk about business, I just want to talk a little bit about for anyone, you are a producer of TEDx, which TEDx event do you? So I have moved from being, so I used to be the executive producer

of TEDx Cambridge, which is actually the oldest locally organized TED talk event in the country. I am now the idea strategist. So I just, I wanted to, I wanted to focus my role on making sure the ideas were strong enough to build these talks on. So that's what I do now. Awesome. And so talk to me a little bit about just, I think a lot of people see TEDx and, or see TED in general, the style, we don't have to go just into TED, but I guess what I'm super interested in, I have never done a TED talk or any, but I have done shorter talks mostly because they push me off the stage or they're throwing things at me. So I'm just running. That's how I, but you know, the, the, what I would be interested in and just for the audience at home as a way to kind of wrap up

our conversation, I'd be super interested in just talking a little bit about the dynamic between the traditional hour long keynote, where you go up and you do your thing. I think everyone's fairly familiar versus taking maybe that same topic and how you would morph it, adjust it to be a 15, 18, 20-minute talk versus that hour-long and just how you do it, what that means to you and that kind of thing. So the hardest thing to do, it's not impossible, but I highly recommend against it, is trying to cut down an existing keynote to fit in that amount of time. You just can't. And really without deep emotional pain.

So I typically recommend what I call zero-based talk building, which is like build it back up from the ground. But here's why. I mean, because most of the time when people are trying to figure out, well, how do I, what would my TEDx talk or my TED style talk be? They're really focused on the time rather than on the content that they could get and they could actually fit in that time. And I don't mean like, all right, they do the math of like 15 minutes equals, I speak at 190 words a minute so I can have a talk. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. Because people can only move so far in the time that you have. And what I mean by that is you can only move people mentally so far in the time that you have. You know, the more time that you

have with someone, the more distance they can mentally cover. And I'm doing this in my mind because my mental model for it is a baseball diamond. So I want you and your listeners to think that home plate, right, which is where you want people to go, like that's where you score, that's the big change that you're asking for, right? That's the kind of big, big change that you're asking for. And it's a simplified way, but I want you to think of like that you can kind of divide the audience around those spaces. I'm going to try to do it so that you can look at it around those spaces, but I've been three clumps.

Right. So you've got a group of the audience that's sitting and on first base, which is they are unaware of the real problem that's getting in their way. And they're unaware of the solution of the real solution that your change that your idea really represents right so that's group one so let's say you know if i'm talking about my own stuff you know people are just asking questions like how do i build a good tedx talk unaware of the big problem unaware of the actual solution that kind of thing now on second base are people who start to be aware of the kind of underlying problem, but they're still kind of unaware of the solution, which is, okay, I know that there's something that needs to be present about my idea, right? That, you know, this is, there needs to be something fundamentally different about my idea, but I'm not really know, I'm not really sure what the solution is yet.

Right. And then the third base folks are the folks that are both aware of the problem and aware of the solution. And they're basically just trying to say, bring me home. I know that I need to figure out like that I need to move my, you know, that like my idea needs to move people mentally a short distance. And I just want to know specifically how to do that. What are the tactics I could put into play and how do you do that? And so I set all that up because even in a keynote, it's unlikely to get someone from first all the way home. Very unlikely. Even in a keynote, because that means you have to introduce them to the real problem. You have to introduce them to the high level solution and you have to give them all the tactics so they walk out that door actually able to do it that's unlikely it's much more likely from like let's say a keynote

workshop combination or a three-day program or something like that so we made that mistake quite a few times yeah and even when i'm working with someone just on a keynote i basically say which base runner do you want to talk to? And, and how far do you can we bring them home? Right? Like, because what's gonna what's good? What's it gonna take to bring them home? So when it comes to a TED TEDx talk, basically, the most you can hope for, most you can hope for is to move them one base, you can move them from I'm talking to people who already understand that we've got a problem in our food supply and energy supply that isn't being met by traditional agriculture. I see that there's some solution potentially in marine farming, but I don't know how do we do that? That's a second base question. You can get them to third base by saying specifically, this is how we're going to

solve the problem of effective marine farming in order to solve this other problem. Does that help? Because it really is just moving this one little piece. You can make them move from unaware of both the problem and solution to being aware of the deeper problem. That's what I call a why style talk. You can make them, if they're already aware of the deeper problem, but unaware of the high level solution, you can kind of move them that. That's what I call a what now style talk. And then if they're aware of the problem, the kind of real problem and the real solution as you're putting it, then to get them home, that's what I call a house style talk. And you can do a 10 minute, 20 minute talk for any of those three. There's kind of great examples out there of each of those kinds of talks from a TED talk standpoint. But that's the understanding

is that you can only move them. You just can't move them more than one base. So you have to choose which base that you're moving. Which is your favorite? What's my favorite? What's your favorite style? If someone said here, you get to choose one of those bases to move people from. I'm definitely a second base person. I love the what now talks. I love people who kind of already sense that there's what the nature of the problem, not fully. Cause that way I still get to introduce like a new frame on a

problem that they have thought I haven't thought about before. And I like giving people kind of a high level direction of the kind of things they need to do differently. Because I, for me, I find that there's that for the, remember I'm always drawn on gaps to me. That's the gap closing talk is, is I can help answer somebody like a persistent question that somebody has had. I can now give them a new answer to that. And I'm not just letting them go, Oh, so that's the problem and go, well, great. But now what do I do about it? What now style talk in my mind usually gives people just starts to give them enough toeholds that they could start to figure it out on their own if they want. But if I'm working with a business or with a company or with an individual on like their whole

speaking platform, I make sure that we actually have talks that cover all three. So that, you know, I have a talk that is that, you know, I have most of what we're talking about today is my, is my why talk. It's the talk I do is called getting the green light. It's like, why, what needs to happen in order for that long-term change to happen and what's getting in the way. And for me, that's Peyton, like big, big concept in that one is the pain is the enemy of long-term change. So we need to build their case. That's a, that, that's moving somebody from first base to second base.

My find the red thread talk is okay. We need to build their case. What's the best way to do that. Okay. The best way to do that? Okay. The best way to do that is to match this kind of universal structure of ideas that gets them there. And then one-on-one work, consulting work, workshops, and training is all, let's deep dive now. We'll start to actually, I'll work with you to actually teach you the steps of how to implement the red thread, detailed, give you practice, all of that. So that's the kind of thing, anytime I'm working with a speaker, where they want to kind of build their whole business out.

Again, that's where the big, you know, how big does the idea need to be? If you're trying to build your whole business, you need an idea that will support that whole structure. But that's, you know, you asked me what my favorite talk was. My favorite talk style is what now talk, but my favorite work to do is actually create that whole string. That's, I love that. That's super fun. And it's obvious in the way that you talk about it, how much you enjoy it. And I can tell anybody who's listening to this, if you enjoyed even a second of this,

go subscribe to Tamsen's newsletter. It's absolutely tremendous. I steal stuff from it all the time. Just like you tell me to. You have that whole swipe area. And always the context and the way you construct the arguments and the stories, it's really, really tremendous work. It is some of the highest value, you know, free in terms of other – I'm just putting your email in. But I think you can get – actually, your newsletter and Anne Hanley's newsletter to me are like recommended reading. Like you shouldn't be in business and not read the two of them. So I appreciate your time so much. Please let anyone who's listening to this,

obviously I'm going to do a whole intro for you and tell people where to go and have show notes and stuff. But just where's the best place someone can just learn a little bit more, you know, start to dive down the path of your work and what you do and what you've done. Yeah. Newsletter is a first and foremost, you can find that on, because that's, that's what's, you know, that's what's, that's my current thinking always. Right. So I think anybody who's, who's reading, we can always, you know, if you watch me for a while, you can actually see the arcs of certain ideas start to develop. And for anyone who's seen the talk that I've been doing right now, Getting the Green Light, they would recognize the anchoring story is something I wrote in the newsletter probably nine months ago.

So you can watch those ideas develop over time. The way to get there and the way you can kind of see everything that I do, the way that I work, a backfill of content, lots of videos. I did a 100-episode video podcast a while back. That's all at tamsdenwebster.com and they can find it all there. Well, it has been a great pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for sharing so much. It's been a lot of fun and, and this has just been great. I'm glad to finally connect, I guess, virtually in person. Absolutely. Yeah. Face-to-face virtually, it works. Yes. Tremendous. Thank you so person. Absolutely. Yeah. Face-to-face virtually, it works. Yes. Tremendous. Thank you so much. You're welcome. so Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible? It's not.

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