The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 011 - Empathy as a Competitive Advantage with Maria Ross

Episode Date: October 20, 2019

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comMaria Ross, author of The Empathy Edge, joins the podcast to explain why more businesses need to harness make empathy their competitive advantage. Get more of the podcast: https://ryanhanley.comLearn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up guys and welcome back to another episode of the show. Today we have a wonderful guest Maria Ross, the author of The Empathy Edge and we do a great deep dive into what empathy is and what it means for our business. Not just the soft fluffy stuff but really tactically. For those of you who think empathy is nothing but hogwash and are really only interested in the bottom line, Maria breaks down how using empathy as a tactic, as a stone cold tactic can help increase your bottom line revenue if that is all you care about, which no judgment, it just is what it is. You either love empathy and it comes naturally to you or it doesn't. But either way, being empathetic will improve your bottom line. And Maria is going to help us understand how to do that. Before we get to Maria, I just want to say thank you for listening to the show. It means a lot to me. I've been working hard on getting these episodes out.

And the one thing I would ask in return, one thing, if you enjoy this show, make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen. And if you listen on iTunes, if you could jump over and leave me a rating and review the show, it would mean a lot to me. It would help. It helps more people find this show and hear these tremendous thought leaders and their insights and just overall helps improve the audience, which strokes my ego, which is always a good thing. But without further ado, let's get to the real works. I am excited to have a mutual friend, Jeremy Miller, introduce me to you and I said, look at your stuff and i was

like please you know make this connection for me awesome what you're talking about and specifically your last book i want to we can talk about we can have this conversation go wherever it goes but um uh in your in your latest book the whole idea of empathy to me i feel like like just where we are in society, not just in business, particularly, I think this is a crucial topic with the 2020 elections coming, not just political, but just the divisiveness. Oh, no. We can go into the story of why I wrote this book because I wrote this book as an outcry from the 2016 election. Yeah, let's hear that. So we can talk about that too. Yeah. All right. Get right into it. I'd love to hear like the genesis of the idea of empathy, like where obviously for you personally, not are we, are we starting just by the way? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Sorry. I thought we were like going to be okay and record, but go ahead. Oh no. I usually just kind of get right into the conversation, but that's fine. So let's, we can start again. Sorry. So thanks for coming on the show. I want to get right into it because we do have a time crunch, which is cool. It's good. It means we can be hard hitting and punchy. Your book is all about empathy and particularly how it impacts business. I think for me personally, what drew me to you, and when a mutual friend, Jeremy Miller, said that he would introduce me to you, I think with things like the 2020 election coming up, with the way, what's going on on Twitter,

with the mobbing, and just in general, this tension that we have around so many topics, both inside and outside of the workplace, this feels incredibly relevant to me. So thank you for being on the show first. Why did you grab onto the idea of empathy personally? What was the genesis of that? Well, so it was kind of an interesting journey. It started about three years ago, it, it was definitely for me coming out of the 2016 election. So it's funny that you talk about 2020. I just was completely upended by that election, by the behavior on both sides, just that the way that hate and,

and pettiness and almost this immaturity was being normalized in the media and on social media. And just everyone kind of was feeling it too. I was having a lot of conversations with clients and colleagues, and we were all in this sort of stunned aftermath of the election going like, well, what do we do now? Like, what does this mean for our culture and society? And also what can we do to change things? Like what can we do within our own platform? I was talking to people like, oh, I'm just a web designer or I'm such and such. It's like, do we all have to go join the Peace Corps? Do we all have to become politicians? Like what do we need to do to change this? And initially, kind of at that same time, I was

working with a strengths coach trying to figure out what I wanted my next book to be about and what I wanted my next steps to be. And ironically, one of my top five strengths through the Gallup Strength Finder came out as empathy. And I'd never really thought about that before. But then as I worked through this with my coach, I was like, oh my gosh, this has been a theme in my entire life and in my work because I'm a brand strategist. I help people connect with their customers through compelling stories, through language, through visuals. And a lot of that is empathy. A lot of that is getting intimate with your customer and understanding who they are. So it was sort of like all these things collided for me. And I was like, I need to write a book about empathy. And it's funny

because initially I was like, I'm going to write a book about putting empathy into action, right? There's enough books about empathetic theory and what is it and where does it come from and all the scientific studies and la-da-la-da-la-da. But I really wanted to do something with people to help them put their empathy into action. And initially I was going to write this grand like treatise on empathy in the workplace, empathy in relationships, empathy in parenting, and some very wise bestselling authors advised me to like kind of stay with a little more of a focus. So I decided to focus it on what I know best, which is branding and business. And, and then it started to really make sense for me because my thought is if we can't master empathy

in the place where we spend the bulk of our time, do we somehow think we're going to be more empathetic outside of that realm, like all of a sudden in the world, in society? So it started to just make sense for me to talk about it in terms of a business point of view and to really reach the skeptics by saying, this is not just a fluffy thing. Like I'm not writing another book about why it's important to be empathetic. You wanna talk about its impact to the bottom line, let's talk about its impact to the bottom line.

And there's research, there's case studies, there's data, there's interviews I did where I basically just made the case in the book that, okay, try empathy out as an organization. Even if selfishly you you just want to increase your profits or you want to increase innovation or increase productivity or attract better talent. By the way, all the bottom line benefits of an empathetic culture and an empathetic brand. And then you will see the results from that. And at the end of the day, your organization and your

people will be acting with empathy. And I truly believe that you can transform from the outside in, no matter what brings you to that place. I think there are a lot of people at face value that hear the word empathy and the ideas and listen to you talk about how empathetic organizations, all the benefits that maybe just for purposes of, of the, the nature of the conversation, maybe level set for the audience. When you say empathy, like maybe defining feels a little shallow, but just give us the core concept of what that actually means. Because I think a lot of people that hear the word, you know, we kind of have a sense for what it is. I mean, it would be, you know, I think everyone's not so remedial, but kind of in the context of what you're talking about, what does that actually mean so that they can level set in their mind when they start to put themselves and look in

their own business as you explain? Yeah. And actually that's really important, right? And that's one of the things I define quote unquote upfront in the book is I talk about all these different definitions of empathy. And funnily enough, everyone I interviewed for the book had a slightly different definition. And then you look at like the dictionary definition, and then you look at like the definition over time, which empathy way back in like the 1800s meant something different. It meant more sympathy than empathy, the empathy that we know today. So for the purpose of the book, I basically said, for everyone reading this, here's what we're going to agree is the definition of empathy. And it's about being able to take on the perspective of another person, to see things

through their point of view. And in some cases, feel what they're feeling, not always, but sometimes. And then take appropriate, compassionate action as a result. And the action part is what's key for me. So we can all be empathetic. We can all feel empathy. But if we do nothing with it, then it's pointless because we're not really, we're just making ourselves miserable and we're not really helping the situation. So there is a way to adopt what I call an empathetic mindset when you're in business as a leader, adopt an empathetic mindset as a culture in a company and as a brand with your customers so that it informs what you

do and it creates a genuine empathy, not just like something you're slapping on for some good PR. And that's really the definition I'm saying is is how can we you know what are the actions and the practices in the book that can help you as a leader culture or brand adopt that more empathetic mindset so it's really about perspective taking see I really like the I really like what you've honed in on the action side of it because because to me empathy feels really hard for a lot of people for some reason it's easy to to have someone complain to you and go, oh, I understand. And then do whatever the hell you want anyways, which is what so many people do, right? They're like, oh, but I listened to you.

So I'm being empathetic. And the idea that you actually have to take action in order to be able to say that, I think that's very meaningful. Um, so my question to you is like, why any, why is it, why do so few people in general, I shouldn't say, I want to put it that way. Let me construct that. Why does it, I get, I have the sense that not as many people as do lead. Do they don't lead with empathy? Like people don't lead with empathy. They tend to just, here's my stuff. Let me barf this on you. That tends to be our default position. And then we have to work to get to empathy. Why do you think that is? And how do we take those first steps?

Well, there's so much in there to unpack, but really, I think, first of all, one of the most important things to remember is that we can't confuse empathy with acquiescence. So there's a lot of people who say empathy doesn't have a place in business because that just means I'm giving people whatever they want. The whiny employee, the furious customer, this, that, and the other thing. That's not what that means. And actually empathy, some of my most empathetic leaders are ones that were telling me things I didn't want to hear, but it's the way, it's a mode of operating. So how do you gather information before you make a decision? How do you make people feel seen, heard, and valued as you're making a decision? And then how do you deliver that message when you're finally delivering the decision? So you need to create an environment

where that's part of your decision making process and in the end it could be the decision you were going to make anyway but you're doing it in a way where you are genuinely listening to somebody you are genuinely considering their thoughts their feelings their opinions and maybe you're making that part of the decision and so often in like I said in cultures it a leader has to make a decision. In the end, my husband likes to call it a benevolent dictatorship, right? Sometimes the boss has to make a decision, but how did you get to that decision? Did people have any sort of voice or opinion in that decision, if appropriate, right? And then also how did you deliver that

decision? So one of my most empathetic bosses was someone who laid me off. He laid off the entire marketing team because he had to. There was a merger. They took on their marketing team instead of our marketing team. And he still to this day is one of the most empathetic leaders I've ever had because of the way that he did it, because of his concern for me, because he provided support and resources that I needed, because he understood how I felt. And so I think that's the difference is that people think of it very binary. Like I'm either

going to be soft and let people walk all over me, or I'm just going to tell people what to do. And there's a lens and there's a decision-making process in there that is empathetic, that sometimes you can deliver that information in a way where people process in there that is empathetic, that sometimes you can deliver that information in a way where people, again, feel seen, heard, and understood. And I think that's hard for people. I think that they don't want to be seen as weak. They don't want to be seen as soft. But again, they're looking at it in too much of a black or white situation. And so what the book tries to do is give people practices and tools and habits that they can, you know, try on for size and it might not feel comfortable for them

at first, but those are the things that are going to enable them to more automatically take a more empathetic mindset. Just like, you know, when you're first starting a workout routine, it's, it's a slog at first, right? You have to like force yourself to go. You have to force yourself. Pretty soon, if you do it long enough and consistently enough, and you know this, right, it becomes second nature. It becomes something that almost is part of your operating system. And that's where we want to get to is enabling leaders and teams and brands even to act in this way. So that's just their standard operating procedure. Yeah. It feels like part of what I hear you saying is that the delivery in many cases,

the delivery is just as important as the actual making empathy part of the process, how you deliver a decision. It's not mutually exclusive. Just doing what somebody wants, that doesn't mean it's empathetic. It could be against what they want and still be an empathetic decision towards that individual. Right. I think it's about looking at the world through their point of view. So sometimes organizations think they're being empathetic because they give their top performers raises on a consistent basis. But maybe those people are motivated by something else other than a pay raise. And actually books about motivation and persuasion say that sometimes

that's not the only way to motivate someone. Someone might want to be recognized. They might want extra days off. They might want a different job responsibility. So being empathetic, I always say you have to flip the golden rule. It's not do unto others as I would have done unto me, but do unto others as they would have done unto them. And that requires you to take yourself out of your own ego, listen, ask questions, and find out what things are like for that person. And that's how you're going to get the most out of them. That's how you're going to help your employees thrive. That's how you're going to get the most out of them. That's how you're going to help your employees thrive. That's how you're going to help your customers just remain so loyal to you.

I mean, there's a host of benefits to being able to adopt that kind of mindset and let your own ego go. Yeah. You know, example of this that literally just happened, and maybe not quite so much in the business context, but from a public personality was, uh, uh, did you see the video that Ellen did recently about sitting next to George W. Bush at the Cowboys game? No, I didn't. Oh my God. It's phenomenal. So there's this, there's this, um, so Ellen DeGeneres was at the Cowboys game. It was her first football game she'd ever been to. And she's sitting next to George W. Bush. And there's this screen capture from Fox or, you know, whoever's covering the game of like

them looking at her phone and laughing together. And like the internet went bananas because it's like, how is, you know, Ellen who, you know, just if you were to put her in boxes is very, you know, liberal and left. And then you have a Republican conservative president on the right. And there was all this stuff about her, like not supporting her side, you know, side. And she does this video. You have to go, you have to go search for it. I'm going to go look for it right now. Amazing. She comes out and she basically says like, George W. Bush is my friend. Like him and

his wife, Laura are friends of mine. Like it's completely okay for me to have friends who I don't agree with and I can express my disagreement on certain issues with them yet still have them as my friends and be supportive of them. And even though that's not quite in a business context, I watched the thing like three times and I just keep saying to myself like there couldn't be today a more relevant and pertinent example of of empathy being one of those things but just understanding and kind of the the coalition that we need to build as a country like it was to me absolutely perfect and um it just it when I was preparing for our conversation, I, you know, I came across it and I just said, I wondered if you had seen it. It's, it's wonderful. I mean, you just made the

point, right? Like empathy is not about agreement. It's not about just, just giving people what they want. It's, it's not about caving in. It's about the way you interact with someone. And, and are you, you know, there's, there's people who, who are on one side of issues and I'm on the other side and I don't agree with them, but I actually try to dig into like, why would they think that way? This is, this is actually an excellent tip for your listeners is one of the ways you can flex your empathy muscle is to be more curious. Curiosity is actually one of the biggest traits of highly empathetic people. And so instead of just digging in your heels and

saying, I don't like what you're saying, why not get curious? Why does that person think that way? What is causing them to form that opinion? What is their goal? What is their intent? And again, you might not agree with it in the end, but you can at least understand where that person is coming from. And then you can have a more constructive dialogue than just, no, I'm not even going to talk to you because I'm going to make all these assumptions about you. And I'm just, you know, it's like, if you look at it in the work context, like the person who's trying to derail your project, right? You can either get in arguments with that person and it can go nowhere, or you can sit down and go, let's talk about why you feel this way. Like, what is your goal? What are you trying to accomplish? Why do you see things the way that you see them? And ask those

questions so you can at least get into their perspective. And from that, you can find common ground. Like, okay, oh, I see here. We actually both agree on this, but you think the way to go about it is this way. I think the way to go about it is that way. Let's see if we can find a middle ground. That's empathy. Yeah. A couple of episodes ago, I was talking to Brian Fanzo. Are you familiar with him? So he was on a show and we were talking about this concept that I'd come across and now I'm going to forget where I came across it. But basically the idea and whoever was talking said, our world today is basically set up, or at least the people on the polls, very set up to be, if we disagree on one item, then we can't be friends. You are on another team. We disagree on one thing and that we need to flip that. If we can agree on just one thing, then we are on the same exact team. And I think there are very, very few occasions

that could happen, certainly in the professional environment, but really in any, in which you couldn't find one thing in which you agree upon. And that, you know, provides the social construct in which we can build this type of thought process on. Does that feel right? Yeah, no. And I think the more that you can, you know, we sort of have a backlash lately with like what's appropriate in the workplace, right? We're not going to get into that. But we also need to remember, again, this is where we spend the bulk of our time for better or worse. So we need to get to know the people that we work with and our customers as people, right? Like there's a, there's someone I profile in the book, who's a social entrepreneur. He heads this global nonprofit and they start every exec team meeting on Mondays by going around and everyone just

talking about what's going on for them. Like, oh, I'm dealing with a sick parent. Oh, I'm literally in the middle of, I'm knee deep in crap because I'm potty training my kid. It level sets the conversation. So then when everyone knows what's going on for people personally, they now have a lens to perceive why they're saying what they're saying in a work context. So if you see that frazzled, harried, very short, curt, overworked person at work, maybe what you don't know is they are taking care of an aging parent. Maybe they didn't have childcare that day and they were scrambling around all morning. So it's about just bringing that humanity back to the workplace and saying, okay, what's coloring their actions? What is coloring their actions? What's coloring their decisions that I need to know about so that I'm better able to have a constructive conversation? And we lose sight of that because we get so busy

at work and I was in corporate for a really long time before I was doing my own thing. And it's very easy to fall into that. Like, well, I have my agenda. I have my goals. I have my things I'm being judged on for my yearly performance review. And I'm going to be like a bull in a China shop. And I'm just going to try to get it done. And like, everyone get out of my way. Right. But, you know, we have to bring that personal and human side back to work because it's just who we are. This idea of like being one person at work and one person outside of work, it doesn't, it's not working for us as, as a world. Like it's, there's increased depression, there's increased, you know, sadness, loneliness, all that kind of stuff. And it's because often we're forced to be two different people and we shouldn't have to be.

Yeah. You know, one of the things I was thinking about, again, in preparing for this was just the idea of and thinking about the idea of empathy was, to me, the need for empathy in the workplace is similar to what's happening in professional sports. And professional sports free agency has made it so that almost all the rivalries in sports are dead. Most of them are just media concoctions. The players don't actually hate each other anymore. You know what I mean?

They shake hands, they slap each other up. They all have the same agents. I love seeing that. I love seeing that when I'm watching sports. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. They're good sports. Like that's what I showed my five-year-old. I'm like, you can be competitive and still be compassionate.

That's the whole point of this book. Yes. Like the whole, like being empathetic and compassionate with your employees and with your customers does not make you weak. Actually folks, look at all these successful companies in the book and how well their stock price is doing and how well their bottom line is doing. And they're able to make it happen. It's not, I, I like to say cashflow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I actually wrote that down. I found that quote of yours and I was going to ask you about that. That was on my list.

I loved that quote. I will say the purest in me definitely misses some of the rivalry because it's just fun. Yeah, but it can be good nature. As far as productivity in human beings, yes. But I think the other, and my point in bringing that up was like, we don't stick to the same job Forever anyway used to be if I went to work, you know, so Schenectady is about 25 minutes from where I'm sitting That's the head cool

You know the original headquarters for General Electric and it used to be if you went to work for General Electric You worked for General Electric for your entire life every aspect and you never went to work today I mean, I'm 38 years old and've probably worked for 12 different companies in my life. And if you're not empathetic, if you're not thinking about the people you work with, if you're not establishing solid understanding relationships, then you're going to move to another place. You're going to need to then work with those people that you were just with, and that's not going to happen. So even if you're a very selfish, self-oriented person, it is in your best interest and in your self-preservation to treat people this way. It's just funny. To me, this is like a no-brainer,

and so many people, I feel like, are still getting it wrong. Well, and there's no need to, just because you don't have to like somebody to be empathetic with them. Like you don't have to be best friends with them. And this is the thing. We look at everything so binary, so black or white, like I'm not going to make friends with anyone at work because I'm going to keep work here and I'm going to keep my life here. It's like, well, you're a whole person. Like what, how are you acting for eight, nine, 10 hours a day? Like, are you acting like this complete jerk? And then you go home and you're a loving parent or spouse or partner. Like, I, I just don't get how that can work for people. Right. So, and, and there, I admit there

were periods in my career where I sort of had to act like that sometimes, and it didn't feel good. Like I couldn't sleep. I could, you know, like it never feels good when you can't align yourself. And the interesting thing is, you know, one of the, of the many benefits that I cite in the book, one of the benefits is about attracting millennials and Gen Z, both as an employer and as a brand. So both talent and consumers, right? And these generations are among the most diverse generations entering the workforce. I think only 57% are Caucasian, about 27% come from immigrant backgrounds. Diversity and understanding of differences is like table stakes for them. They don't want to work for companies or they don't want to deal with brands that don't embrace diverse points of

view. And what I love about it is those generations have tied that behavior, which even my generation sort of missed on that. We were all about just representation, getting the right people around the table, right? They're actually tying it to business results. They're saying this diversity of thought and experiences is not just like really nice and ethical. It's actually going to increase the bottom line because we're going to make better decisions. We're going to have more innovation. And I always like to say, you know, if you've got diversity without empathy, you just have a bunch of people sitting around the table disagreeing with each other. Yeah. can't see those different points of view and understand and be able to constructively and collaboratively come to smart decisions, then what good is it that you've got like, oh, look at our pie chart of how many different races and genders and ethnicities are represented in our workforce

if none of them can work well together because they're not in an empathetic environment. Yeah. What I kind of hear you saying in probably its most shallow sense is that empathy is actually a competitive advantage in business. It's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. Empathy is a competitive advantage. And that's the thing is like, if that is what makes a skeptic come to the party, they're still ultimately, again, they're going to be trying it on for size and it might not feel natural to them at first. I mean, especially if they're doing it for a selfish motive. But I've seen in my career, and I share a story in the book, that I've seen executives transform from the outside in.

They might have done something initially because it was good press, or they just wanted to be seen, they wanted an advantage over a competitor, but they were fundamentally changed by the experience. And they wanted to do more. And this is what's so great. I spoke to a psychologist for the book who works with autistic children. And she said, you know, initially when you're working with the most severely autistic children, you're helping them develop empathy and social cues. You just give them a checklist.

And so initially they're just following a checklist. But what happens is, is as they take those actions, their feedback from the world changes and they start to even like, you know, I don't know that the medical term, but it like rewires their brain, their prefrontal cortex. And so they want to do it more. They're like, oh, this is working for me. I want to do more of this. And then it fundamentally becomes a part again of how they operate. So that's what I'm trying to do with leadership and with business is like, if you want to try this on to like increase the bottom line and, you know, attract top talent, go ahead, try it. I promise you are going to be transformed once you do. And that's going to make the world a better place, which is ultimately my sneaky goal for the book. Yeah. Which I, which I, I love that. I couldn't agree more with everything that you've said. Um, I have, I know we're running short on time. I had one quick follow-up question just because this is the way my brain works and just putting your, your brand works, Ryan. Um, I just, uh, your brand strategist hat now, not, uh, um, talking about little shift but you said millennials and Gen Z and

whatever the one is even beyond that they do not like working with or do not enjoy working with or are purchasing products from brands that don't have a diverse message or brand around them. And I guess my question to you is, is it that they actively don't like or distrust, or is it just so foreign to them that those brands don't even come into their ecosystem? I think, and you know, we always have to be careful with studies that are sort of like millennials and Gen Z all think this way, right? Because they don't even like to be put into boxes. But I think what the data does show is that these generations are more savvy. Like they grew up with social media. They grew up with transparency.

They grew up with everyone being able to have a voice no matter where they came from, right? So they do look with distrust on, you know, a lot of them grew up during the Great Recession. And so a lot of them grew up with a distrust of corporate America. Yeah. And, and so they only, they tend to, I shouldn't say they only, they tend to support brands that are genuine, transparent, authentic. And out of that comes, you know, how are they treating their customers? How are they treating their employees?

There's not necessarily one-to-one of like, they will only support empathetic brands, right? But there's so much wrapped up in that whole, like, how are they treating their communities? Are they responsible corporate citizens? And all, et cetera, et cetera, you know, how are they treating their employee, their supply chain? Is it ethical? All those things, all of those imply a need for empathy because it's about doing things, setting your own ego aside and saying, we want to do, I don't want to say the right thing because I hate using the right and wrong thing with this conversation, but we're going to think of someone other than ourselves and our stockholders when we make decisions. We're going to think about

the health and welfare of our employees. We're going to think about the health and welfare of the communities that we serve and the communities that we impact. All of that resonates with that incoming generation of talent. And those are the companies they not only want to work for, but those are the ones they want to spend their money with. And you've seen backlashes in the marketplace of different brands. And what's great is you're seeing companies with their sway. What I heard on NPR the other day is fill in the leadership vacuum that we have right now. I was listening to a radio interview with the CEO of Dick's Sporting

Goods, which I don't know if you've heard, but they decided to stop selling firearms altogether. Now they took a quarter of a billion dollar hit for that decision, but the CEO was, and he actually just came out with a new book about a purpose-driven organization. He was saying right now, there's a severe vacuum of leadership. We're not getting the leadership out of Washington, out of world leaders. He's like, so who else with power can step up? Well, companies with power can step up to do the right thing. And those are the brands that I think millennials, Gen Z, they want to support because they are, they are much more socially conscious. They are much more diverse. They are much more, you know, world savvy than even, you know, I was when I was younger. And so I think it's, again, it's a, it's a bottom line argument, but I think if it gets

everyone to, to behave in a really constructive and compassionate way, then, you know, okay, maybe your motive for doing it initially was not so pure, but again, I think you can be transformed. So it's, it's just a really interesting conversation. We're seeing a lot of companies. I don't know if you're familiar with the business round table, which is the organization of the top 200 of the U S is largest companies. And they just changed their mission from being purely about, we exist to serve our, our shareholders to, we exist to serve all stakeholders. And that might sound minor, like, Oh, they're changing some wording, but that is a fundamental, like philosophical shift in why companies exist and what their

responsibility is to their employees and to their communities. And I, for one, I'm excited to see that because again, we sort of have a vacuum of leadership right now. So I'm excited that we're all stepping up and having this conversation. Yeah. Well, it's certainly a good conversation to have. And I'm glad that you could come on and have it with our audience. I want to be respectful of your time. This has been a sprint, but I think it's been loaded with value. Maria Ross, The Empathy Edge. I highly recommend you go out and get this book because this is, I mean, if there is one core tenant of any leader that I think just has to pull through, it's this one. And then

everything else can be kind of picked a la carte based on personality and what you're trying to do. But this is the core tenant or at least one of the most important core tenants. And you have the textbook right here. So I'll have everything linked up. Otherwise, go to Maria's website. I'll have that. Where can they connect with you on social? So on Instagram, I'm at Red Slice Maria. On Twitter, I'm at Red Slice. On Facebook, I'm at Red Slice.

And on LinkedIn, I'm Maria J. Ross. So you can find me there. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Ryan. This has been great.

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