The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 021 - Ann Handley Teaches us How to be Irresistible

Episode Date: January 2, 2020

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comThe most engaging, relatable and flat out awesome marketing professionals in the world, Ann Handley teaches us how to be irresistible. Get more here: https://ryanhanley.com/Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Ryan Hanley Show and today we have the absolutely fantastic, wonderful, creative, authentic, transparent, vulnerable, mind-bogglingly inspiring Anne Hanley on the show, who is a best-selling author, partner in Marketing Profs, one of the most well-respected and prestigious marketing organizations in the world. And she also has one of the premier conferences in the marketing space, the B2B Marketing Forum, and she has given us an hour of her time to share her insights on what she has going on in the marketing space, and it is just a tremendous episode.

But before we get to Ann, I just want to give you a quick call to action. Actually, two quick calls to action. If you enjoy this show, please leave a rating and review on iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps us get found by more awesome people just like yourself. And if you're not already, every week I push out a video newsletter. The videos basically break down everything that you'd normally get in a text-based newsletter, tools, breakdowns on things that happened that week, content that I created. And then we always have a section at the end,

which is exclusive insights, exclusive content, something that I saw, that I heard, that I think is going to help you market your business better. It's going to help you grow your business better. Go to ryanhandley.com forward slash subscribe to get the video newsletter. That's where all the exclusives are. That's where all the news is. It's the best video newsletter in the world, in the world, hands down. I'm saying it right here. Get it, ryanhanley.com forward slash subscribe, get the video newsletter. Now let's get on to Ann. Where I'd actually like to start with you is the newsletter. Cause to me, you and Tamsen Webster

are battling for the best, the most valuable piece of email content in my inbox every week. And whether you know it or not, I actually have like a ranking system that is arbitrary and completely personal, but, um, but it is, it's incredibly valuable. So few people are taking the time to, to really, I, there's a slight movement back to email, I think, but it still seems like, hey, just let me drive you with the shortest number of words to this thing on my website that I can actually track. And you do it completely different. It's so long form, there's so much value. And I'm just interested in one, what was, you know, what kind of spurred you to take an email newsletter on and why you continue to be so willing to almost add more value with each new edition of the newsletter?

Yeah. So about two and a half years ago-ish, something like that. I got an email from a guy who lives in the Netherlands. And he said, you know, I signed up to be part of your personal website at annhandley.com. So not at Marketing Profs, but at Ann Handley. And I, you know, I never hear from you. You know, is there like a secret list somewhere? Like, why am I not hearing from you ever? You publish there very sporadically. I never get anything in email at all. I just, I never hear from you at all. I follow you on social, but that's all I get. So he said, why is that? You know, he asked me this sort of fundamental question. And, you know, like sometimes there are moments in your life when somebody asks you a

question and you get like hyper defensive about it. And then you realize that it's definitely triggered you in some way. And that's essentially what happened that when he asked me that question and I got super defensive and I was just like, well, I mean, I'm busy. I've got marketing problems. I've got a speaking. I've got books. I've got not enough.

And I realized I was just, you know, I gave him this whole like flow chart of excuses, you know, if I were to map it out. And I realized that, you know, I really, he was absolutely right. I was missing an opportunity. I wasn't nurturing a community that had opted in to hear from me. And just that, that moment where I thought these people have given me their email address, they have opted in to hear from me and I'm not, I'm not engaging with them at all. I'm not talking to them at all. I'm not talking to them at all. I'm not writing to them at all. And it was really that iteration of my thinking as I

thought more about that, again, about two and a half years ago, that I thought, you know, I really need to think about this community a little differently. And I started to really value that person who had opted into my email and my friend in the Netherlands who was sort of a proxy for that whole community at that point and it was very small there was only about 3,000 people that were on the list some people had been on the list for years just to receive you know basically what used to happen with that list is anytime I published a blog post which again was very sporadically they would just get an alert in their inbox. And that was it. Like that was the extent of how I was using that platform. And so I just started to rethink what is the value of a person who hands over their email address to you. And it was just sort of

struck me that that is a really important moment. And for the first time ever, I really started to think maybe I really should do something with that, which sounds ridiculous in a way for me, because wasn't translating that same thing to, you know, to my own personal stuff, to my own personal website, even though I had books and a speaking career and all that stuff. And so, yeah, it was, it was sort of a reframing and a re, what's the word, I guess, just, just really a new respect for that individual who had turned over their email address to me. And I realized that that's such an important and really precious gift that somebody gives you. And I don't say that lightly. I really do believe that that is something that we should really be valuing as marketers way

more than we do. You obviously enjoy it. It comes through in, in the way that you write in the obvious time that you take to curate everything from resources to funny images to the stories that, that go into them. So, and, and I've also noticed, and I mean this in a positive way, they've gotten longer. Some of them, you know, some of them have gotten, I mean, I save them like resources in my inbox because I'm like, Oh, that thing's amazing. I don't have time to research it right now. And then I actually have a folder. This is going to sound weird and please don't consider me a stalker. I just do find it valuable. Um, I have a folder that I stick like yours and a couple other newsletters in of people who I want to go back to because it there's so much value in there so I guess to me it's one I completely agree and I have I feel like I have undervalued my email subscribers at different times as well and uh what I did was

I created a video newsletter so I 15 to 20 minutes talking through like like you would put into a regular newsletter but I'm talking through it I just you would put into a regular newsletter, but I'm talking through it. I just feel like I can be a little more authentic in myself and I can do it in a way that maybe differentiates, but that's not the point. The point was, um, you keep coming back and you keep adding more value to this thing. I feel like a lot of people, they just do the least possible to get it off their plate. Why have you continued to invest into this thing? And, you know, what maybe, I don't want to just say like the ROI, because that makes it feel shallow. And I don't like that. But like, just personally, what are you getting out of it that keeps you coming back to this thing that obviously takes time out of your day? Yeah. So let me see how to, what, what, which question to answer first,

I guess. So yeah, so that, well, let me just step back for a second. So the reason why I chose to do an email newsletter instead of say a, you know, like a video newsletter, like, like you do, or, you know, something on IGTV, or, you know, instead of I wanted to do something episodic, I knew that I wanted to be able to communicate on a regular basis, I needed a schedule, because I need that as a person as a professional, if I don't have that, I'll just, you know, I'll keep pushing it further and further down the field. So I knew I needed that, number one. And I decided to do an email newsletter because, you know, I'm a writer. That's how I started my career. I started my career as a journalist and I've wanted to be a writer since I was a little kid. And so I've

always identified as a writer. And so I really wanted to, you know, just communicate in that way because that's the way that I communicate well and I'm really comfortable in that. And then the second piece of that is that I did it, I publish it every other weekend because that's the only, like that's the cadence I can manage. I can't do every single week. And so I thought, all right, if I'm going to do all, so all of those things, episodic, it's going to be writing and it's going to be every other week because that's all I have time for really.

Then what is it going to be and how is that going to be a other week, because that's all I have time for, really, then what is it going to be? And how is that going to be a differentiator? And so I wanted to create something that felt like a, you know, like, like something important when it comes into your inbox, I wanted to feel like a kind of gift from me, because if you're giving me your email address, I want to give you something back valuable in return. And so that's the way that I approach it. And, you know, some weeks it's a little bit longer because, you know, as I start out usually with a story or a narrative of some kind that sort of encapsulates the theme for that newsletter, and then I'll curate a few links that I think are interesting, and I'll tell you why I think

they're interesting. And so it's a little bit of, I mean, it would probably take you all of, you know, 10 minutes if you're a fast reader just to read it. And I have heard that, you know, some people say that they save them. And I think that's, that's awesome. Like, that's very gratifying for me. And so, you know, where I, so I guess the motivation for that, like, where does that come from? It's, it's because, you know, I think you interviewed our friend, Brian Fanzo, right? Did you interview him on this podcast? Yeah. And so one of the things that Brian talks about all the time is push the damn button, right? Did he probably talked about that with you on the show? And, you know, he's a good friend of mine. And every time I've seen him speak, he always like, that's kind of his catchphrase. And I realized that I wasn't pushing buttons anymore. The further you get along in your career, the fewer buttons you push. And I wanted to push

buttons again. I wanted to have something that was just mine that I controlled from the writing to the packaging, to choosing the images, like those funny gifts and things that I put in there to, you know, choosing every little element. So it's all me. It's 100% me. And even in the deploying of it, right, the mailing out, and then it goes out to people, and then they write back to me, and then that's all me, you know. And so I wanted to really own that from the beginning to the end. So why was that important to me? Why did I feel like I needed to do that? It wasn't just because I needed that sort of psychic satisfaction of pushing the button. But also, I think you learn a lot as a professional when you stay in that mode of creating and when you stay close to an audience. And so as I have gotten, you know, further along

in my career, I don't, I'm not as close to the Marketing Profs audience anymore. You know, we have 600,000 people on that list and it's a massive community and I'm grateful for all of them, but I don't, like, I don't put the newsletter together. I'm not the one that's writing it and curating it and putting it out anymore. And I just, I missed having that kind of connection. I think it also just informs who you are as a professional

and it keeps you close to an audience, which only enriches everything else that you do. professional career where they have maybe lost that direct connection that some sort of creating, even if it's, you know, on a more extended cadence, even beyond every other week, if it's once a month or whatever, just keeping some sort of connection helps you overall, just maybe mentally, but also with actually making decisions in your business. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think it's helped me so much just, you know, from, I mean, so many points of view. Technology, you know, understanding how technology works now, figuring out how to grow an audience again. You know, I started with 3,000 people on

that list. And when I started writing to them on a regular basis, you know, when I launched the newsletter just about two years ago now, and I started writing to people through that, you know, through the newsletter, some people were like, whoa, what is going on here? Like, we never hear from you. So I had a flurry of unsubscribes at that point. So those 3000 people were maybe only about 2000 by the time, you know, they had sort of, you know, sort of self-selected themselves off the list unsubscribed. And it's now, I've now built it up to, what am I just over? I think I'm close to is it 23 or 24,000? Somewhere around there. Yeah. So in two years, you know, it's not it's not massive growth, but I've done it all myself. And I've learned about how to market a piece of

content, right? So how to market your your marketing, so to speak. And so yeah, and then also just having that connection to the audience and find out what do people care about? Small things. What do they click on? What resonates with them? Am I packaging myself well so that I'm describing what I do to this audience so that when people get the email newsletter, then they understand, you know, who I am and what I'm all about. Like all those small little tweaks, it really does help you take a broader view of, you know, how you're communicating, how you're putting yourself out there. And it informs, like you said, like how you make other decisions in your business. So yeah, I think, and it doesn't have to be an email newsletter. I think

it's hugely valuable for anybody just to keep that connection, you know, publish on LinkedIn, start something on Instagram, start a YouTube show. Like it doesn't matter whatever platform you're most comfortable on. But I really do believe that as a leader, you've got to be creating something. Yeah. Well, basically, if you're not on TikTok, then you don't exist. Yeah, you don't exist. Oh my God, I am so addicted to TikTok. I don't create anything on there, but wow. Sometimes I'll start watching it and like an hour later, I'm just like, holy, what? This is just so entertaining. I mean, you have to believe in like the creativity of the next generation is like, I'm like, I can never think of these things that these people are thinking of.

And from all different walks, it's insane. I had to delete off my phone just because I do the same thing, just voyeurish. But like I just was going down these rabbit holes. And I said to my wife, I was like, I can't watch these stupid videos anymore. I know, but they're so good. They're so good. There's so much fun.

Yeah. So really funny, like quick side note to that. So my daughter is in college. And for the past couple of years, like, cause I'm always looking at social channels, probably like you are too, just looking to see what's up and coming and what's out there. And so I'll often ask her like, you know, how are you using Facebook or are you like, are you on LinkedIn yet?

Cause she's now getting, she's, she's been in college a few years. So do you have a LinkedIn profile? Like just stuff like that. I'm always curious, like how the adoption works for her and her generation. And so I've been asking you for about TikTok for like a few years now, at least, right? However, when it started and she kept saying to me, no, no, no, that's like for middle school kids. No, it's for high school kids. Like, no, I'm not on that. And now she is completely addicted to it. Now she posts to TikTok. So it's really funny the way it's bubbled up just to her, like to the early twenties now. And, and, and now like, you know, I see people on there who are my age and it's like, it's just, it's kind of interesting just to see its evolution.

Yeah, I did. I posted like, and please, well, please no one go and check me out on TikTok. It's not a solid representation of what i like but like i i like posted a couple things and i just literally became i would love to consider myself at least a a fairly creative person but i immediately realized that this is not the venue in which i am creative like this thought process i'm just so overmatched and i was just like i'm just gonna watch this one i And I was just like, I'm just going to watch this one. I believe in its power. And like, that if, you know, if you can speak in this way and communicate, it's powerful, but like, I just was overmatched by it. You know, it was like, that is, I just,

I was watching some baseball video and these, like these college kids were doing this thing. And I like, wow. I'm like, that's so much fun. I wish I was doing that. That's so fun. Yeah. I feel completely the same way that when I view videos on there, I'm just so blown away by the creativity. And then, you know, how I feel when I look at anything creative is like, I usually have one of two responses. The first is, wow, that's amazing. I could never do that. Or wow, that's amazing. I could never do that. Or, wow, that's amazing. I can do that, or at least close to it. You know, so those are usually what I react to, or those are my, those are the way I react. And so with TikTok, I'm absolutely, that's amazing. I could never do that. It's just, it's not the way that my brain works either. It's not how I work as a creative person. But yeah, it's just hugely entertaining though. Yeah. So fun. You know, that kind of takes me into, um, where I wanted to go with you next, like your persona and just in general, you you're, it, it feels like, and I don't mean that in a negative way. It feels, you feel very authentic, transparent, vulnerable, the way you speak about yourself, you're very

self-deprecating, you know, and, and it comes across very inviting. And even though we've never met, and this is the first time we've ever spoke, it feels very natural and easy to talk to you. Like, I think a lot of people, a lot of people struggle with that particular thing. And they see that, they see that characteristic as almost like a superpower. And I have tried in the spaces that I operate to help people understand that through practice, like maybe some people are a little more predisposed, but it through practice and just pushing the damn button, you can, you can start to develop these things and hone them. And I'm interested in, in your journey with, with this, with this

type of topic, with being authentic, was it natural? Did you have to hone it? And what advice you have for people who struggle with this? Yeah, it's not necessarily natural to me, but I think that what is natural to me is that I don't, I can't, like there's no artifice with how I am online because I honestly don't know how to do that. I mean, and that's, it's not false humility.

I just don't know. I don't know how to be anything other than who I am, you know, so I think the tricky part there and I think why people sometimes struggle with it is that there is a vulnerability in that, right? That if you are just who you are and if you just put yourself out there, that people are not necessarily going to like that, right? That if you are just who you are, and if you just put yourself out there, that people are not necessarily going to like you, right? That they're going to react

to you in a negative way. But what I have learned is that that's just kind of part of it. That's kind of part of being out there as a professional. I also think, though, that there's a difference between being personal and being personable. And so I am authentic and I share, you know, who I am and I show my beloved little dog and I show my family and I show like what I love and who I am on social media and through my writing and through my work, but I don't really get personal because I feel like there's a line there. And I think it's, that'll shift depending on who you are as a professional. But for me, like I've found the place where I'm comfortable, like I'm comfortable, you know, being vulnerable to a point, but, but not oversharing, you know, and I think it's, I'm struggling a little bit with articulating that, but I think it's a very personal thing. I think you've got to decide how much you're willing to show. And for some people, that's going to be way more than I do. And for some people, it's going to be a little bit less. I don't think it really matters where that line is. I just think you have to figure out where

you're comfortable with that line being, number one. And then number two, I do think you have to be relatable and personable. And so that's another thing that Brian Fanzo and I have in common. We talk about it in different ways, but we talk about being relatable. And so that's what I strive for all the time, because there's nothing I hate worse than seeing somebody who is in a position of power, who has accomplished a lot in their career, or any of those things. And they just feel like they're not, like they're not approachable. And they, they try to, they sort of have this artifice about them. And there's sort of a wall set up. And I don't like, I don't understand that. I don't know why people do that. And again, I don't really

know how to create that wall. So, so yeah, for me, I guess it's, it's been an evolution, because I'm, I haven't always been willing to do that. But once I started just allowing myself to be to show a little bit more of who I am that I realized, oh, you know, that this is this is good. Like this is feels comfortable to me. Um, this is something that I've struggled with my entire career. Yeah. Because, and I almost struggle with it to the other way. So for me, I'm the same way. I don't know how to package myself in any other way than exactly who I am. Like, I'm such a, I'm a terrible liar. Like my like my wife always says like I know when you bought a Dunkin Donuts coffee because I can see it in your eyes like you can't hide it from me right like um

it uh I just don't I just can't like I just I don't have it in me like I start to I look down I'm just terrible like if I'm not being exactly who I am then I'm it's so blatantly obvious so I've just tried not to be that way but what what I've struggled with is the, so, so you talked before about, uh, like packaging up your, who you are and what you deliver and your, your offering and that kind of stuff. And I have actually in my career now for other people as a, as a marketing and sales professional, I'm able to do this for them. But for myself, like packaging myself, I am terrible at it. Like I, I just feel like when it comes to write the, what am I going to give you? It's like all of a sudden the pen stops, the ink goes dry, my arm cramps up, like now I'm hungry and I can do anything except for package my ideas of what

I'm going. Like, does that make sense to you? Like I just struggle so much with that. Um, cause it feels like I'm being, I don't know why, but there is this personal, I feel like now that I'm packaging myself in a positive way, all of a sudden, all the breaks, all the resistance comes in and I can't actually use any of my creative abilities at all. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. What if you, what if you talked about it, not in terms of what you do, but what you do for others. So in other words, rather than focusing on packaging you, what if instead you talked about a client you helped or one person who was affected by advice you gave them or, you know, something, something along

those lines. So take it outside of you, in other words, and frame it more in the in the results that you gave one person. Yeah, I thought about doing that. Yeah, I you know, that that usually be then I just talk to myself in the third person like I like I'm usually like this Ryan over here does this stuff. He's super cool. And you should pay for all his stuff. That's funny. Tim Urban. Wait, but why do you follow him? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That just reminded me of like his monkey, his monkey buddy. And I was like, Oh, I was like, excuse me. Well, sometimes I got a dog sleeping on a chair right over there. And sometimes I just talk to her. Yeah. Her name's Isabella. And it just, it gives you like a person or a thing to, I mean, that poor dog knows more about me than she ever cared to know about. So. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah. Well, just like, just to go back to the, like,

even to the newsletter or creating content or, you know, starting, you know, any kind of channel or content program or way to communicate with prospects and customers in your audience. That's exactly what I do, though. I talk to one person. I've talked about this a number of times, but just really thinking about that one person who I'm writing that letter to, that email newsletter every other Sunday, that's the only way that I can really get out of my own head and sort of get out of my own way because I'll focus on one person. I won't say like, you know, dear Ryan, but I'll say, you know, I'll be thinking about you in my head as I'm writing. And it really helps me make it conversational and make it ultimately really useful to the person I'm writing to. And as a result, like, you know, the rest of the audience as well by proxy, just by thinking about that one person. Having a lot of well-known authors have done this as well. Like didn't Ben Franklin write to his

cousin or something or his brother? And even though he wasn't actually writing for that person and you pick an individual and there's another famous example that I'm missing. I talk about, yeah, Warren Buffett writes his letter to shareholders to his. Yeah, yeah, I talked about that on stage quite a bit. I talked to I was at a talk yesterday, which is why I had to postpone our, our conversation that we were originally scheduled for yesterday until today, because I was speaking to a group in Boston. And somebody came up, I told that story about writing to one person. I told the Warren Buffett story and someone came up to me afterward and they said, it's so funny you said

that because I write to my mom every time I have to sit down to write an email sales letter, you know? And I was like, that's so great. It's like, Hey mom, here's what's up, you know? Yeah. And it's funny how, it's funny how some of these, you know, tricks or hacks, however you want to, they really do crack whatever that wall is that was keeping you from getting to the words or to the ideas, like whatever it is, you know, if maybe it's getting hyped up on caffeine or maybe it's going for a run or a walk or listening to, uh, you know, sometimes hardcore nineties gangster rap, like just whack, it just cracks it, you know what I mean? Like, you know, a little Wu Tang just gets everything going and you're ready to go. And I think it's so specific

for everyone. But you do need to find that thing because so often the people that I find who want to create more but are struggling to do so, it's because they don't have, they haven't built a prompt into their life, whether it's writing to one singular person, whether that be an individual or a persona, you know, writing to their self, thinking in the third person, talking to their dog, Wu Tang, you know what I mean? They haven't done that work of finding what that thing is. I love that.

I love that. It was just like a series of prompts you just gave. I love that so much. That's so good. Yeah, just before this call today, I was feeling very, like very low energy. I got up super early this morning. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night

and I was just super low energy. And I thought, okay, I've got to like figure this out. So I'm in Boston. In Boston today, it's about zero degrees Celsius. So it's very cold. Actually, it's colder than that. I think it's like 11 degrees out or something like that. And so I went out and just ran around the block just super fast, just like get myself

going. And it just, it really helped a lot just in terms of getting my energy up, getting back into it. And so I do that a lot. Like in one of my promises I made to myself last year is outside every day, one hour. And that's just really changed a lot of how I go about my day because I schedule that hour, just like I schedule a meeting, you know, just like I scheduled this call with you because, and I, and I don't break it every single day outside one hour. It shifts

my mind. It gives me the space to think about with more intention about what I'm doing throughout my day. And sometimes that relates to what I'm creating on the content side of things. And sometimes it just relates to just getting a break from your email, from the grind, just taking a step back a little bit and just having that space. So that's another thing. It's not Wu-Tang, but it helps me a lot. Listening or listening to something or silence? It depends on the day. Lately, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts. And so sometimes I'll do a podcast.

I'll listen to sometimes like a, oh, actually, did you have Joe Polizzi on here? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he just wrote this murder mystery. Yeah. So I read his book and now I'm listening to it. I was, he was, he was generous enough to give me an early version

of it. And so now I'm listening to it and I expected that he would be reading it and he wasn't. So at first I was disappointed, but now I'm really getting into it. So that's what I'm listening to right now. Yeah. He, um, so he, I asked him about that, about whether he read it or not. And he said that because you have to do the different voices and it, like, you have to hire like an actor. It's like a, like a, you know, someone's profession is to walk through these different stories. And he just was like, I didn't want to, he goes, it would disappoint more of my, of my

fans if I actually read it than if I didn't. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah, that's really funny. Yeah. You know, I've struggled with the podcast thing. I love podcasts. I love them to death. What I struggle with, and I guess this is the next question is about inputs, is sometimes I feel like I get lost in other people's ideas. It's like there is an amount of input from other places, which is very productive. And then there's,

there's a line at which it starts, I feel like I'm just filled with noise and it's, and it becomes a little jumbled. I'm just interested in how you take in inputs. How, you know, is it, is it reading? Obviously you do podcasts, audio books, but you know, like how do you take in inputs and how do you make sure that you, even though you're taking in these inputs, you're true to your thoughts and if that's even an issue for you. Yeah, that's funny. So the way that I try to balance that is that I, first of all, I totally agree with you because I have fallen into those situations where, you know, like I'll be, I'll have a thought and then it'll occur to me now, wait a second. Was that my thought or did that actually,

did I hear that on a Seth Godin podcast, you know? And it's like, that's the last thing you want. So, so that, so that my brain doesn't get too saturated with ideas from other people that outside one hour every day. I typically, if I'm listening to a podcast, it's not a marketing podcast. I read marketing books. But for podcasts and anything audio for the most part, I don't listen to anything marketing related because that, like that for me, that outside one hour every day would be my podcast time or my, like my ebook time or my audio book time. And so I can't, I need a break from marketing for that time and just to, to ignite different parts of my brain. So I listened to non-marketing podcasts. I listened to non-marketing stuff. That's why I'm listening to Joe's book right now, because it's not about marketing. Although he has some funny

Easter eggs in there for these people who are marketers. marketers. And if you know Joe, it's even funnier. Or I listened to like, lately I've been listening to Dax Shepard, armchair expert. I don't know if you're a fan of that. It's like, it's completely, he interviews celebrities or, you know, sort of higher profile people. And it's like, it's, you know, it has a, it's not business at all. And so I need that just sort of complete separation from marketing. Because if the intent is to separate your body from your work for an hour, I also need to separate my mind. So I try to match those two up. You know, like if I'm taking a break, I'm taking a break. I'm not going to sit here and like, listen to, you know, somebody talking about marketing because I do that all day long yeah I um so I I really

love conspiracy theories like not because I believe in all of them I just there's just something about them that really hooks me like to just do and like if I can catch a podcast of someone trying to convince me of like aliens or like ancient civilizations like I am in yeah um but what's funny and this is this is off but like, is that I started down this rabbit hole. And like, I listened to this one episode of Joe Rogan. And this guy was on Graham Hancock. And he talks about this early civilization, which is actually freaking fascinating. Doesn't matter. I won't, you know. But then I go down this rabbit hole with this guy. And now all of a sudden, I like not doing my job because all I

want to read about is these humans that existed 25,000 years ago that he's trying to like convince me. And I just said like, well, I got pumped to breaks. Like I need to, I need to make sure that if I go down, like I have to, like, I do have to come back to sales and marketing. Like this is what I do for a living. But I agree with you. I don't listen to marketing podcasts either. I, I, I produce one, I guess, I guess this is my marketing podcast time is me trying to steal all your good thoughts for my audience. Um, you know, I should say like, I do listen to marketing podcasts, but not when I'm not, when I'm on a, on a, on a walk, like not when I'm doing that one hour thing. Um, like, you know, I listened to the marketing smarts podcast, but I listened to that, like, like at my desk, you know, like at work time. And so like, that's just the break that I need to take so that I don't get those so that I balance

out that, you know, taking in like the input with, with the output. So I'm not taking in too much because, you know, to your point, there is so much, right? I mean, you can't, you know, there's, there's so many podcasts to listen to. There's so many blogs to read and newsletters. And so I have to curate that pretty carefully. And so I try to find the people who, first of all, don't think the way that I think. That's another reason or that's another thing that I look for and how I don't get too saturated with it. Like there are some marketers who are sort of in our world that like, I have a very

similar outlook to them. And so their stuff, I find that even though it's super valuable, I like, it's almost too close to what I talk about. And so it's harder for me to really read too much of their stuff because I start to get influenced by them. Like, and it's in a good way, but it takes away a little bit of my voice and my own thoughts. And so I have to be careful about that a little bit. So for example, just super specific example, I read Avinash Kaushik, right? He's a data scientist at Google. I love Avinash. He's such a good friend. He thinks about things that is like so different than the way that I think about things. My friend, Chris Penn, I don't know if you,

have you ever had him on this podcast? I had him on a long, long time ago. Wait, like 2014. Yeah. He's got some new stuff going on. So he's another guy. Like I read his newsletter because he and I, like we talk about the same thing, but we have very different takes on it. And so like, those are the people who I seek out because I, you know, I need that to balance my own prejudices, like as a marketer, that that's

valuable to me, but also they're so different that I don't get saturated because sometimes one of their, something that they'll publish sparks something in me. And I have always a different take on it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, no, I think to me, those are the types of inputs. I think it's probably why I like conspiracy theories because like if you are 100% convinced that aliens exist, I might even be like 82% there, but if you're 100%, you're thinking about the world differently

than I'm thinking about it. And I just, I don't care so much about the topic. I mean, literally input this crazy conspiracy theory with anything. But it's like, how did they get their mind to that point? And like, what was it about? Like, how did they connect that dot to that dot? And I didn't. Like for me, those two things don't connect.

But for them, they do. And right or wrong, you know, whether, you know, insane or not. It's interesting from a behavioral standpoint to understand how they got to that, how they made that jump. Like, I just, I don't know, I find that so interesting. Yeah, no, actually, it makes perfect sense. And what I really like about what you're saying, too, is that that's the exact exercise that I talk to marketers about all the time, because what you're describing is, why do you see the world the way you do? You know, and how did you get to that point? Like, how did you, what informed that decision?

And so that's really thinking about things from a very empathic point of view. You're not saying you're crazy and just shutting it down because you believe in aliens and you're insane. You're saying, you know, how, why do you think that? You know, how did you come there? What happened before you started thinking that? Like, what informed that mindshare, that mindset? And so I think that's a really valuable skill as a marketer. And it aids your understanding of other people, but I think it also can really help you

as a marketing and salesperson from a behavioral standpoint, from really understanding how you can build trust with somebody, because the people you're marketing to, they may believe in aliens. I mean, I don't know, depending on what you sell. Maybe you sell anti-alien repellent or something like that. And if that's the case, then you've got to understand who you're talking to. So asking those questions, thinking about the world from a worldview that's not your own, super valuable. It's really hard.

But I never thought about listening to podcasts like that. My friend Raheep Bhargava talks about reading magazines that are not intended for you as a way to sort of build empathy. And I do that. I do that a lot of times when I'm traveling. So if I'm walking through an airport, you walk by those Hudson News, and I'll pick up, I don't know, Car and Driver, or Country Living, or something that's completely not what I would ever read. Because I'm curious in a similar way. But also, how do they package it? What are the ads in here? Who are they actually focusing on? How are they talking to

them? So just as an exercise to build empathy, I think it's a really fascinating thing to do. Yeah. This is the last thing I'll talk about this topic. And I have one more question for you. And then I want to be respectful of your time. But I actually did this experiment the other day where I listened to a podcast that was anti-nuclear power. And just take the politics out of this. But it was anti-nuclear power and just take the politics out of this, but it was anti-nuclear power. And then I went and found, um, a respected podcast that was pro-nuclear power. Um, and I, and I literally listened to them back to back and I had to listen to one before the other. So I listened to the anti one first and then the pro one second. And it was fascinating, fascinating to hear. And they were both done not in an

extremist way. These were well thought out. Here's my case, rational arguments. Just one took a set of facts and pointed in one direction and one took a set of facts and pointed the other. And, um, and they weren't trashing the other side. That's why I liked what I liked about this. And, um, and it was fascinating to compare this. They would bring up this, there were certain pieces of evidence that they both used. And in one case, they use that piece of evidence to point in one direction. In another case, they use that same piece of evidence to they both used. And in one case, they use that piece of evidence to point in one direction. In another case, they use that same piece of evidence to point another. And the persuasion techniques that these podcasters were using to make their argument was like, I mean,

for, I mean, I'm assuming for you too, but like for people like, it was like candy. It was like, it was like walking into a, well, for me, a cookie store. If I had walked into a cookie store, that's what this was. Like, oh my God, look at all these different things that they're doing and the way they're framing this argument. And it's the exact same study, the exact same conversations. It was awesome. And in the end, coin flip on which one is right, everyone has their own beliefs and who really cares that the politics weren't the point. It was just, it was so interesting to listen to this topic that most people don't even think about. We will never consider our long podcast trying to convince one way or the other. It was awesome. Why did you do that? I'm freaking insane.

I was just, yo, seriously, I'm curious. What made you think of that? What made me think of it was, um, one, I'm, uh, I'm incredibly interested in what motivates people to do certain things. Like it just drives me nuts. I hate, I shouldn't say hate. Hate's a strong word. I try not to accept shallow answers to questions. Right. Which is why this is really as much about getting information and sharing information with my

audience as it is practice for me to get below the surface with whoever I'm talking to. But in this particular one, I was referred to this podcast called congressional dish. And it's by a woman whose name is escaping me at the time. But if you search congressional dish, you'll find her. And she did this podcast on the federal, federal reserve, which again, I'm just interested in these things. Not this isn't political. So,

cause I, cause really I don't care, but it was so well done. This guy just, a person I respect tweeted. If you've ever been interested in the federal reserve in any reason, this is the best podcast ever created in the history of how the Federal Reserve was started. That was enough for me to go, I'm slightly interested in the Federal Reserve. I'll give this a listen. And she was tremendous.

It was so tremendously done that I said, I want to give another one of her episodes a try. So I gave this nuclear power one a try. And I disagree with her take on nuclear power. I think it can be a clean source of energy that gets us off of fossil fuels, which is ultimately what I would like in a rational way that isn't perfect, but whatever. So I disagree with her point. So I said, I wonder what, so she made this argument and I saw certain persuasion techniques she was using to make her argument. And I said, I wonder what the counter argument for this is. So then I went and searched for a podcast and I can't remember which one I found because

I did this like three or four months ago, but like I found another podcast that gave the pro nuclear power thing. And I was like, I'm going to listen to hers again. And then immediately listened to this one, which was two and a half hours of my life. But was still worthwhile because in the end I was like, I still think I'm right about nuclear power, but I, it is incredibly interesting to think. And, and, you know, and in some, in some cases they're asking you to take leaps of faith with them. There were some interesting gaps in their logic because you could see where in certain points,

certain sides of the argument forced you to take leaps because they were biasing in a certain direction and they both had to do it to make their point, which was really interesting. Like in some places she had the logical next step and the other side had to take a gap leap to make their point and then vice versa. And it was just, you know, once you kind of listen to both sides, you started to see where they were like forcing you to take logic gaps to, or jump, you know, jump over gaps

in the logic to follow their argument. And this is probably not interesting to anyone, but, but yeah, that's, that's, that's why, how I got there. Well, it's interesting to me. I mean, I just think it's, it's interesting just that you, that you saw that though. Right. I mean, just, you saw that the difference between, you know, somebody can take the same research study or the same findings or results and see something completely opposite. And so, yeah, just like as an exercise in developing empathy and thinking about things from another person's point of view and allowing yourself to be challenged like that, I think it's

kind of interesting. So that's cool. Yeah. I think too, like what, what I, what it also did for me was I gained more, even though I disagreed with her opinion, I gained more respect for her because what it did was it validated that even though there were certain places where she was, you know, forcing you to take a jump in the logic, it wasn't in a nefarious way. Like she wasn't twisting the facts. She was just saying, my, you know, I, I think that this takes us this way and, you know, and, and really it's my, my perception that, you know, went the other way. So it was just really interesting. But what it takes you back to, I guess, for me was

in, in getting, taking it all the way back to marketing, right? You are, there are going to be certain aspects of your offer of your product, of how you enamor an audience to you, of how you try to connect with the right people whose problems your product can solve potentially, like there are certain moments where you're forcing them to take a logic gap, or I keep saying logic gap, a leap in their logic over, you know, to get there. And I guess what I struggle with is some, I always want to err on the side of being as transparent with that happening as possible. And I don't want to be huckstery, right? I don't want it to be an assumptive leap. I want to be like, look, here's the leap I'm asking you to take. But if you believe this,

come jump with me, not, I'm going to use, you know, everything from, you know, CLDini's book to get you to make this jump, even though you don't really want to do it. I guess that's maybe a check on myself. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. And the other thing that that just reminded me of is, you know, just to go back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago about how difficult it is to package yourself and describe what you do. Sometimes when I've packaged myself in a certain way, or even through my writing, when I'm describing a scenario, or when I'm, you know, sharing a story, sometimes the feedback that I'll get back from readers or from newsletter subscribers is like, what they hear is different than what I said, you know? And so that's another really, I think, important reason why just being a constant creator, just creating something on a regular basis

and talking to an audience makes you a better marketer because you are able to get that immediate feedback loop and you see that maybe sometimes what you say or sometimes the way you interpret it or that leap that you took is not necessarily the leap that your audience is taking or that your customer or prospect will take for your product or service. And so I think it just strengthens that empathy muscle. And I also think that it strengthens the

communication muscle because you're taking that in and then saying, all right, that's the way she interpreted it. Well, that's interesting because I took this in a different direction. And that's a lesson that you can apply to growing your business as well. Yeah. I also think, and I have one more question that I want to ask you. This is just interesting. You know, I feel like, and this is, I'm interested in your take on this. Like to me, you get, you buy yourself misses when you create more because it's more about your body of work and the impact that that has. But then, so if your frequency is very minimal, you know, you're creating once a year or, or, you know, just very rarely, then every single thing that you create is scrutinized. If you're more consistent or there's a cadence to it,

then it's more about the general flow of value that you provide to people than it is any one particular topic. Because we're all going to miss or not have a connection on certain topics. I mean, it would be illogical to think that the other case. So that consistency and stuff allows people to flow with you, it feels like. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I like that. You buy yourself a miss or you buy yourself misses. Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah. I think that's really, really true. And I hadn't really framed it in that way, but yeah, a hundred percent. I agree with that. That's good. Okay. Here's my last question. I promise we will, we will not take

any more of your time. This has been unexpected. The trajectory of this conversation has been unexpected in a very good way. So, you know. Good. Yeah, I don't have a plan, but like this crazy notebook starts to form and then that's how I get to where I'm going. They would put me in a padded box if anyone ever looked at this notebook with the things that I write in here. But you, you're a speaker, and you are very highly regarded speaker. And my favorite thing to talk about, which we are not going to get to, but I just want to get your general feel for,

like, what is your favorite thing about being on? So I also a speaker mostly to the insurance industry that's that's my area um but i just love it's the closest thing to the exhilaration because i was an athlete like when i get up on stage it's the closest thing i can get as an adult like i'm not i have kids i'm not jumping out of an airplane like i'm not you know doing anything super crazy going cliff jump jumping or whatever because i want to be here for them. But like getting up on stage, I get that same rush of adrenaline. And I'm just interested in like, what does it mean to you? Like, what is your feelings when you're out there and you're killing it or not? Like, what is that? Like, what does that mean to you? What is that feeling to you? I just, yeah, that's interesting. Um, so I, I never wanted to be a speaker. As I said, I started my career as a writer. I always wanted to be a writer. And I didn't think of myself as a speaker. Like a lot of speakers, I'm more introverted. I tend to, I mean, I'm not super introverted, but I definitely get my energy, not from being around a ton of people. And so that said, like, you know, being in an event is like, it requires a lot from me. I

mean, I love it, but it also does require a lot of energy from me that I need to then restore with that one hour a day, typically outside. But so I've never really craved like that moment. Like I've, we have some speaker friends who like, they love being on stage. They live for stage. They did theater when they were in high school. I miss maybe for you, like being out on the athletic field would be a similar sort of rush. Like I, I was never that person. I was always very much behind the scenes. But then I realized that you have to be seen, you know, to have your, to have an impact, you've got to be seen. And I, and I felt like I had something to say.

I had, I feel like I will, I do have a way that I have a take on things that's different than other people. I have a sense that I can help marketers and businesses. And so I wanted to deliver that message. And so that's really what drove me to get on stage. You know, I, I wrote a book, I had to share that message. And that sort of was the trigger that got me there. But the but the the when I got there, I realized just how powerful that platform really is. And I realized that I'm good at it. And I worked at it. And I really love it. Like I love being on stage and I love talking to people because I love entertaining them and making them laugh. But I also love, you know, sharing really important lessons that are sort of wrapped in that, wrapped in that humor. So it's one part entertainment, one part education, and there's

really no other way to deliver that than being on stage at a live event. There's so many things that can go wrong. There's so many things that can go right. And I love that sort of that, that tight rope that you're walking constantly. There's, so there is that, that feeling that you're making an impact and it is in real time and it's, you know, it's never the same twice. I mean, there's just so much about it that I've really grown to love. But, you know, the first thing is, I think that I feel like I have something to say. I wanted to say it. And I think that being on stage and delivering it in person to actual people in the audience and seeing them react real time, making them laugh, making them think is just, it's so gratifying. And when you see somebody do it

well, I think, I mean, I really appreciate it even being in the audience too, just seeing that it's just, it's changed the way that I think about being on stage and stage work, you know? Well, we are so glad that you do what you do. And if you listen to this podcast and you have not read Ann's book, everyone writes, this is a must get. Google that, go to Amazon, go to annhanley.com. You can find everything there. I'll have links in the show notes, but don't go to my stuff, go directly to her. So her Google gets the hits and then she gets all the little dopamine hits in her brain because she sees her Google analytics go up. But I just, I think the world of your work, I'm very grateful that you do what you do and that you find joy in it because that comes through in

it. And then we get to siphon some of them off for ourselves. Thank you so much for your time. And I wish you nothing but the best. Thank you. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible? It's not. With the one-call-close system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call. This is the exact method we use to close 1200 clients under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle tested, the one call close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible.

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