The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 066 - Basilios Manousogiannakis on Employers Evolution to Tech-Forward Carrier

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comBasilios Manousogiannakis, Client Relationship Manager and Product Owner at Employers Insurance joins the podcast to explain how Employers have evolved from a failing State-owned single state carrier into a national powerhouse investing in technology across the spectrum of the insurance marketplace. Get more://ryanhanley.com/Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous guest, someone who has worked inside both carriers and agency technology throughout his entire career, brings a tremendous amount of expertise, someone who I've gotten to know over the last, I'd say online the last few years, gotten to know personally basically since Rogue launched. I'm talking to Basilios Manouso Giannakis, who is a product owner and client relationship manager for Employers. Employers is a company that I am appointed with. They're a company that I believe in. I love the way they're attacking the market. And as Rogue moves more and more towards a work comp first approach and

really diving into workers' compensation as an expertise and becoming more than just a provider of the coverage, but really a true advisor of workers' compensation insurance and everything that goes along with that. Employers is a big part of my future. And just Basilios and I, we've just had some great conversations. Like he'll call me to say, see how things are going. And we'll end up talking for 45 minutes about all different kinds of things happening in the industry. And I wanted to have him on just to talk about employers and their mindset. And I think there's some awesome stuff in here. I absolutely think you're going to enjoy this conversation. But before we get to that conversation, I want to give a big shout out

to my friends at Better Agency. The team at Better Agency is really changing the game when it comes to insurance-specific CRMs and just CRMs in general, but I have officially made the move to Better Agency. It's really becoming the, it's the first place I log into every day. Better Agency is the first tool that I log into every day is I go into the tool and I start working through whatever tasks I have, communications that have come in overnight, making sure that I have my sales pipeline up to date, that I'm working through my service pipeline. And the fact that it connects to Zapier and they're building all kinds of direct integrations all the time, I really believe

that Better Agency is on the path to how an insurance agency actually operates. Like building a tool that matches how they actually operate, not the way that we've kind of had agency management systems forced down our throat. Like better versions of the same old mousetrap is what I feel like we're constantly given. And I feel like better agency is a better way to run your agency. And I've just really enjoyed the product and it's an honor that they're a sponsor of this show. Go to betteragency.io. That's betteragency.io.

Check them out, get a demo. Even if you're not in the market for a new CRM system in your agency, it's good to know what this tool does because I have a feeling you're going to be hearing more and more and more about it and eventually you're going to want to know. So go get the demo, know what's out there. If you're in the market, I love using the tool, I just do. And so it's great that I can both be a user every day with Rogue Risk and have them be a sponsor

of the show. It works out really well because I love sharing products with you that I believe in, and I believe in Better Agency. So check out betteragency.io today. And one last thing before we get on to Basilios, I just want to say thank you for listening to this show. I love you for listening to this show. I love you for listening to the show. It has been such a pleasure to roll out episodes on a more consistent basis. Big shout out to Cass and his podcasting service where he helps podcasters get podcasts like this out to the world.

If it wasn't for that service, this podcast wouldn't be possible. But I just thank you guys. I love you for listening. All right, now let's do it. Mr. Hanley, what's going on? Hey, what's up? I have just been enamored by the disposition of both of you, and I've really enjoyed our conversations for sure, but of your company in general, right? Like employers is, it feels like one of the companies leading the charge in the idea of coming to the agent, right? And the consumer for that matter. But particularly, it feels like you guys are, instead of saying, I'm going to position this a different way. I think the belief for a long time

has been that the carriers made agents come to them, right? Here's how we like to do business. Here's our box. If you want to play in this box, that's great. If you don't want to play in this box, then have a nice day, go someplace else. And it feels very much like you guys are one of the carriers that is starting to say hey how do you like to play what is your you want to play in a circle we'll help you make a circle you like triangles we'll help you build one of those two that's fine and and maybe i'm off maybe i'm not but that has been my my perception of you guys and uh and i just wanted to kind of talk about that in whatever ways you're able to, because I feel like it is the future and, um, and I just wanted to dig into it.

Definitely appreciate you kind of having us on having me on. I mean, I think you hit, I mean, you hit it. So kind of one of our guiding principles is that we are going to meet our customers wherever they want to transact business. Right. And so that customer for us could be the agent, could be the business owner, could be the claimant. So, I mean, the customer is a wide spectrum for us, our own employees, right?

We're feeling that now in COVID. And so I wouldn't say gone are the days of saying, hey, come to our portal and rate. That still very much drives our engine. But we very much recognize the importance of being omni-channel because our customers are experiencing that in every other aspect of their life, right? And I mean, the talk track within the industry

kind of lines up with it. What I'm really proud of employers was, in my opinion, and this is one of the many reasons I came to employers, is because they were leading that charge. I mean, so my prior life, I had a I had a short stint with, with a tech vendor that catered to carriers. And so I would be on the other side of the table, talking with these, the national carriers, regionals, talking about what their strategy is, particularly around digital distribution, right. And a lot of it is, yeah, we're talking about it, or we're working on it. And employers was like, dude, we've been doing this for like two years now. And I was kind of taken aback because I always wrote employers off as kind of like a sleepy monoline comp carrier, right? That's not really going to make the move. They're not going

to innovate and was, I mean, just blindsided quite honestly and proved wrong. And so, you know, that for me was kind of like eye-opening. You know, I think carriers get a bad rep around how they perceive the agent. I've never been at a carrier where they say the agent isn't relevant. It's always been the agent is relevant. It's just how do we empower them has been kind of a little bit of a disconnect. And so, I think with what's happening in our current environment and then just the capabilities that we have in terms of digital, we are trying our best to empower our, I mean, at the core of it, our agents are our distribution to our end customer, which is the policyholder. So whatever we can do to power that, we're going to do our best.

Yeah. So, you know, one of the reasons why that I had, you know, was very interested in working with you guys is obviously Rogue is a, you know, comp is what we're doing. And while COVID is definitely taking its toll on our jumpstart, I obviously see big things for our relationship in the future. And I'm very excited about our relationship. Just so everyone listening at home knows,'m an appointed employers agency and like a monoline comp carrier. Right. Why? You know, I think before I really got into commercial or before I got into commercial of any substance or really started even dive into comp really deeply. I was like, why would I want to even think about partnering someone who only writes one product? Like, like, do you think that does that help give you feel like your agents get a competitive advantage because you guys are able to dissect? Do you like what what do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of taking in a carrier that just writes one product? And obviously, it's an incredibly important product.

There's a lot more to it. I don't mean to diminish it. But versus, say, you know, the Hartfords and the Travelers who, you know, again, not a knock on them, but they write, you know, a huge spectrum of stuff. And that's a great question. I mean, I'll admit that I was guilty of asking the same question. So being on the carrier side, right? So most of my career has been on the carrier side. My biggest blind spot is I've never been an agent. So I've got, you know, there's areas that I'm continuing to learn from that perspective. But I had that same question. I mean, I've worked with, you know, multi-line national carriers out there, right? And so I don't want to call it

indoctrinated, but I had this mindset of, is there really a need for a monoline comp carrier? And what I've learned in my time here at employers is, and it aligns with my own kind of personal philosophy, is you've got to double down on what you do well versus trying to be a jack of all trades. For us, we're going to focus in on this line of business. We're going to be the best at it. We're going to offer up as many relevant solutions to our customers. Again, agents, claimants, policyholders, et cetera, and be best in class. And you know what? A lot of folks can say that.

I've seen it in action versus an outsider and now being an insider. I mean, you just talked in the past 18 months, Ryan, we've released over 20 agency-facing technology solutions. Think of that. I mean, that's like wild to hear for a carrier to do, right? I mean, Agile is starting to take its place in our industry.

And so I think it's good because it's going to continue to force us to iterate and innovate. So where before, it was kind of a waterfall, like, hey, we're going to take this project on

and in 18 months, hope it's right. And you kind of a waterfall like, hey, we're going to take this project on and in 18 months, hope it's right. And you kind of find out on month 18. But, you know, we're already outdated. So it allows us not only just from a technology perspective, but from claims handling, from underwriting. We're only doing one line of business. And so we can put out a more competitive product with a higher value proposition for workers comp. And so I think the testament there is for us, you know, in the midst of a crisis, we are having record breaking months in the terms of quotes and binds.

And so that to me is like, I won't say the end all be all, but a testament itself, like there is a consistent need for monoline comp carriers out there. Because if there wasn't, you know, I don't think that would be happening. And to your point, the multi-line carriers that are out there would, would continue to capture that space. Yeah. I, I, I have definitely found and I'm continuing to find them and I don't want to act like, uh, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. Um, you know, but I have found that in, in focusing on comp more and really learning the product and starting to get a feel for where certain things go. And the comp to me is, I think of it almost as a separate thing than the rest of the package, right? I think a lot of people think of it as part of the package. There's the bop and the, or the, you know, your package

policy, then you have your auto and you try to put all that with the same carrier. And I, I don't even look at it that way anymore. Like that thought doesn't even cross my mind. I think I really, I think first, the first thing that always comes to my mind is where, where does the comp go? What is this class of business? Who wants this? Who's going to be the best fit? You know, who's got the best pricing for this particular line of business? Who's going to be the best fit? Who's got the best pricing for this particular line of business? Who's going to be willing to work with them? And I look at that first. And then the rest of the business kind of falls into place.

But I think separating out and really, you know, there are more and more harbingers of quality comp work that are starting to speak up. David Carruthers is a big one. Mike McDonough in California is another big one. Tom Tams in Minnesota is another big one. These are voices that are starting to talk to why agents in general need to take comp more seriously. I think this will be an idea that starts over the next few years to really permeate our industry is, is, is giving comp it's due. Cause I don't think it certainly wasn't taught to me in that way. The way it was taught to me was you just rate it with whoever, and you know, whoever you'd write the pop with

is who you write the comp with. And that's end of story. And I just don't think that's the answer. I don't, I don't think that's the right thing for your customers. Listen, I might be biased, but comp is protecting the business's most important asset, right? And that's the right thing for your customers. Listen, I might be biased, but comp is protecting the business's most important asset, right? And that's its people and its employees. It ceases to exist without them. And so I completely agree. I mean, I think, you know, again, there's a little bit of bias on my end because I'm with the model on comp carrier, but I've always believed that. I mean, that's part of the reason I'm here at this company is people first, everything else is follow. And you want to make sure that when your employee is injured on the

job, that they're getting the best in class service, because it won't necessarily reflect upon the agent to that claim holder, right? It's going to reflect upon who they work for. And so if they have a bad experience with the carrier, they're not going to say, oh, the carrier ruined it for me, or the agent ruined it for me. It's going to say, oh, you know, the carrier, you know, ruined it for me or the agent ruined it for me. It's going to be a Mr. And Mrs. Boss. What the heck? Like I'm working for you and you're not taking care of me. Yeah. Yeah. My cheap ass boss won't pay for the good insurance. And now I'm getting duped around and you know, that kind of stuff. And yes, I completely agree. So you had mentioned that you guys have rolled out 20 agent facing technologies or agent supporting technologies. Are you able to talk about what some of them are

maybe indirectly or whatever, just to give people an idea? What does that mean? Like, I think there's probably a lot of people listening that are like, what does that even mean? Because the bar for what agents expect is so low that, you know, what most of them are is, oh, hey, we refaced our portal or, oh, we moved our port. You can now log into our portal with a web browser that was made in the 2000s, you know, something like that. And I think that bar like, is very low. Some of the things that I see you guys doing are, you know, today, cutting edge, you know, right there technology. So anything or any capabilities that you're willing to talk about, I'm, I'm super interested in sharing with the audience. I think there's quite a bit that we could probably share.

You know, some of it is what you hit on, we just had to do a refresh, right? So one of the key drivers for us is how do we create a quoting experience for our customers that delights them, right? And build it off of user and agency feedback. So the one thing that employers does really well that I have yet to see with other carriers, and this is not meant to be a knock or I've not maybe been visible to that side of the business when I was with those other other carriers is we sit down with our agents twice a year across all geographies. So you're talking 50-ish meetings happening twice a year where we're asking them, hey, what's working well? Where are you getting stuck as an agent? And then what do we capitalize on? And then we hold that meeting six months later. And that's like our moment of truth.

Like, did we actually do anything with what you told us to do? And so that's what we build a lot of our technology and our innovation around. So one of the key things that they were telling us is like, listen, employers, you've got to be able to send us a quote back quicker than you currently do with a heck of a lot less information, right? So I want a yes as quickly as possible or no as quickly as possible. And I don't think that's uncommon across the industry. So we spent a ton of time focusing on revamping our agency and our quoting portal to do just that. So what historically still blows

my mind, took an agent 20 minutes, maybe quote with us now can do in less than anywhere from 20 seconds to two minutes. And within within the API world, six to eight seconds. So that's one of the key things. And then we continue to iterate. But where we're focusing a lot of our efforts on is investing in technologies, maybe that we're not necessarily building. So one partner that we both work with is Tarmica, right. And so multi-carrier rating platform really focused in on streamlining small business for the agent so they can focus on the right carrier, right coverage while improving that profit margin that continues to seem to, it seems to deteriorate small business. We have that. And kind of one of our core principles

there is not only are we wanting to offer our agents choice in insurance coverage, but also choice in technology solutions. So there's others out there that we partner with as well. So not every agent is the same. So what might work well for a rogue risk in Tarmica may not work well for an agent down the street and they might see another solution out there. So we want to make sure, and this goes back to what we referenced earlier, is just meeting our customers where they want to do business. And so that's critically important with us. So we rolled out multiple API integrations. We updated our AppSite checker to do some really slick things within the quoting process.

It's a wide spectrum of what we're doing in terms of agency-facing solutions, whether it's quoting, self-service capabilities, post buying stuff, payment plans. It's, it's all about trying to meet our customers where and how they want to do business. Yeah. And I, and I love that. Um, so one I'll say the employer's rating platform for comp is probably the best in the business right now. Um, it's super easy. It kicks you out early if it's not a good risk. I mean, that is probably the worst part of rating systems. And there is a company that I took on, it's the last full spectrum carrier that I took on that I hate. I hate it. I have nothing against the carrier, but it takes me like seven screens to figure out whether or not they're going to write it or not. And then the other part is, it'll go all the way through, give you a quote, and then have the last thing be refer to underwriter.

You've just spent 40 minutes plugging all this nonsensical information in to the system. Hit refer to underwriter. And then you'll get some random underwriter that you don't even know will be like declined. And you're like, oh, my God, if I could reach through the screen and strangle that human being right now, I would do it for a couple seconds, at least try not to leave a mark. You know what I mean? Like I would do it just to get to, because I just spent 40, you could have told me, you could have told me on the very first screen, Hey, we don't really write that class. Sorry, man. You could have said that you didn't you waited until an email a day later after 45 minutes of quoting and that concept um is really it keeps it keeps me away from writing business

and i actually told them i had the uh the marketing rep called me and said hey how's it going whatever um you know and she said uh she said you know we were we're hoping for a little more production out of you and i said to be honest with you, I'm, I'm hitting my agency numbers. I just can't. I said, I hate using your system. I hate it. I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I just, I, um, that's why you don't get business from me. She's like, what? You know, agents love our system. I'm like, you know, that's not true. You, you said that you are lying to me right now. I was like, cause I can give you the name of six other carriers whose system is way better. So long story short, um, I do there. It's very, uh, you can tell someone thought through the process and you can

tell that you got feedback from agents because it does work in a very logical way, which is nice. Nice. So what do you think it is about employers or just the industry in general that you guys have this mentality or belief system of getting out into these different spaces? Because a lot of times the thought process before would be, well, if you're with a Tarmaca, then you could never be with a SEMSI or a Bold Penguin or one of the others. Like, well, you're going to pick one and that's the one we're going to work with. And then the problem is, you know, an agency could, you know, because of their agency management system or some other thing, maybe they just can't get to that product. And now they don't have that functionality. I feel like it is a fairly unique belief structure for

you guys to be very Switzerland-esque in your integration with other companies. What is it about your culture or what you guys are trying to do? Yeah. I mean, I think you just hit on it right there, right? It's our culture and that was really driven. And I'm going to plug in a good friend of mine, Brian Falchuk. He highlights this in his book, Future of Insurance. It was really driven from the top down. So our senior leaders prior to my time really doubled down on this mentality, right? And our CEO had to make sure that all the leaders that he brought on board bought into that vision. And part of it is also, I mean, we are a comp carrier, so we have to get creative about how we get to the customer and how we get to our agents. I mean, it's not the first thing that every business owner thinks of. So we need to insert ourselves

in a relevant decision or relevant buying event. And it may be the traditional process of working through an agent. It may be powered by an agent with a direct consumer kind of channel. We're willing to take that risk on because we recognize there's going to be winners in this space, and we want to be there when those winners happen. And we also recognize the risk of maybe partnering with some that might not take off or they get acquired. So we have to make sure that we're there in the moment. But at the end of the day, it comes back to our culture, believing in recognizing what's

happening in our environment today, right? We can no longer continue to do business the way we've done historically. Our customers at its core, the policyholders, claimants, business owners are so used to doing business and other aspects of their life. And they're not going to go, oh, well, hey, I'm about to go buy insurance. I totally expect it to be rough on me, which might be the case, but doesn't justify it anymore. We can't make that painful. And so that for us is important to meet our agents and our customers wherever they're going to do. I heard a while back, someone say, you meet one agent, you've met all agents. I could say that's the furthest from the truth. And so we've got to

make sure that our solutions meet every agent and their unique needs. Yeah. That is probably the thing that has changed the most in my mentality over the course of my career. When I first started speaking, well, we'll say since I first started interacting with our agencies about a decade ago, obviously this year I'm not doing speaking gigs, which kind of hurts my heart because I love doing it. But this would have been 10 years of since my first gig was 2010 in San Francisco. The biggest thing that has changed from that moment to this moment is what you just said. 10 years ago, I said to myself, I don't understand insurance agencies and insurance agency. Why aren't we all operating through the best practices and doing these things? Because you could give someone the answer to a

question and they would look at you and give someone the answer to a question and they would look at you and be like, that doesn't work for me. And at the time I would say to myself, then you're the problem. And what I've learned is that's not necessarily true. There's so many levers in an agency, so many levers. You know, you can put two digital agencies next to each other. They run completely different. You old school local agencies, they run completely different. Carriers, technology, people, you know, just where you're physically located. I mean, all these things, the state you're in, because, you know, I mean, do you, you know, where I'm at, you know, I'm, I'm what, 12 minutes from the Vermont border, 25 minutes from Massachusetts border, and maybe 35 minutes from Connecticut.

So like, if you do the classic 50 mile radius around my agency, I technically have four states that I can pull from. And, you know, just all these different aspects, I think, today, I think it's very, to the technologists, and to the carriers and to the vendors that are serving the agency for us, I think that's one of the key thoughts is, I think you've really brought up two key thoughts, this idea of meeting your customers where they are and that every agency is actually different and needs to be able to integrate your solution in the way that fits them is how you get in. And if you create friction, you don't get in. Yeah, and I think, I mean, there's, there's a power behind consistency. So I think that's where

some of the old school thought comes from. You know, there, there was the running joke when I was back in my underwriting days was kind of the same thing. You put 10 underwriters in a room, you're going to get 10 different decisions. Well, technology is allowing that to be more, the decision become more consistent. Right? But you're still talking, everyone's unique, they operate in a different way. And then, again, my blind spot is I've never been an agent. But at the same time, I imagine you want to present and provide unique value proposition, because if every agent was the same, there wouldn't be 30 some out 30 some odd thousand agencies out there. Right.

I, you know, so the underwriter thing I'm interested in your take, having been one, I tend to gravitate towards human underwriters. And to me, when the, when the machines do too much underwriting, I start it to me, it really, it limits the value proposition, right? Because I'll give you a case in point. I have, I had an account that I'm working on. It's about 5.7 million in building value. It's an LRO. So I'm working with the building owner and I'm working through this case and And the computer gave me a number.

And I knew that that wasn't the number that I needed. I wanted, I needed it to be a little bit lower. And there were companies that would go, nope, that's the number. Have a nice day. And then there are companies like, and then like I ultimately went with New York Central Mutual and I'm working with them for like,

and I called my underwear. We're on the phone for like an hour and we're talking about the building and I'm working with them for like, and I called my underwear, we're on the phone for like an hour and we're talking about the building and I'm sending her pictures of the building and we're talking about these different things. And I was like, you know, I was like, this guy's owned this building for 10 years. They have one $3,000 loss that that's making the machine push the rate up. But the machine doesn't know that he fixed the roof. And now that ice dams aren't a problem anymore, you know, all this stuff. And she comes back and she goes, okay, we can, you know, I'm,

I'm okay taking the IRPM from this to this. And, um, you know, a machine couldn't do that for me. You know, I needed to talk to an underwriter and I now just logically, I'm going to start going to them more because I know not just price, but the idea that I can actually pitch an account and say, look, this looks, this is something that you don't like, but really this thing isn't never going to happen again because they've done this thing over here. And I can't tell the computer that like, do you see, do you see the need for the human underwriting still? Do you see it coming back? Do you ever see there being a renaissance to a certain extent? Or is it only going to get more machine driven? Does that make sense, my question, what I can't speak for others is, and I've shared this in other

forums, is the same kind of opinion that I have for our agency partners, right? Is we're bringing in technology to empower agents to have more human interaction, right? And so some of the challenges that we see on the agency side are the same challenges our underwriting partners were having, right? They're spending too much time on the administrative or legacy processes that are prohibiting them from really focusing in on what you highlighted, right? Let's sit down with the agent. Let's talk about pre-qualification, why this risk is right. And then let the technology take some of that work off my desk. And then we can have that discussion like, hey, let's reevaluate this. Versus right now, A lot of it's like, Hey, I've got to go in and manually rate. I've got to

go and pull in different resources. So I wholly believe that technology is only going to improve our, our industry as a whole, because it's going to allow us to become humans again and advisors again, if that makes sense. Yes, it makes sense. Yes, 100%. I had the, I don't know if you listened to the show, but I had the CEO of Zywave on because Zywave is building out this tool called MyEdge, which I think is, it's kind of a best, it is unbelievably cool. And the vision, kind of the vision is even cooler. It's, it really is and and and i have you know just so everyone knows i i pay i pay for it i don't get paid for this isn't a bad side way every time i pay for the tool but i dropped insurance x states for my edge i just i see what they're doing it's

amazing and what i i said to jason because he said you know he asked me something i don't know if i said this on the on the show or or if it were, but I just said, I said, dude, why can't I just push a button and all this ridiculously stupid information, which I consider it stupid. When a carrier says to me, your building was built in 1985. When was the electrical done? 2014. Oh, you're going to fight me on that. We're going to go, you're going to go check and see if it was 2012 or when was it it's a stupid question to ask you because at some point there needs to be if we i mean this is when frontline underwriting used to matter i'm looking at the building and i'm telling you it could be 2014 or 2010 or 2018 the wiring in the building is fine. The wiring is not a problem. Why then

do I have to, do you think that I'm ever even going to ask the owner of a $6 million building? Hey man, you know, when was your plumbing last done? And he's going to go, really? We're talking about the plumbing. That's what we're talking about right now. Like we're not talking about some of the things that actually matter and could actually cause losses like you know what i mean like if a if a if a gasket bursts a gasket bursts but he didn't redo the plumbing since the building was built ever no one ever does that so right why why can't we just i and this is what i said to jay i go the day that there's just a button for stupid information we can call the stupid information button we just go flip and it just sucks all that information into the system.

Now what I can do is instead of those silly questions, I could jump on the phone for five minutes with my underwriter on every single account and say, here's why I think you should write this. Or Hey, just give me a regular price for this because I don't even really want this one, but I do think that it's important that I get a quote from you. And, or let's go get this one. What can we do? What do you need from me to go get this account? This is what I really want.

There's some long tail value for us here. Let's do that. Like the chord form nonsensical information. Now there's important information too, but I'm just, these databases and being able to pull this stuff in, I wish I could talk to my underwriter on every account, but it's impossible when you're spending 45 minutes

collecting nonsensical information, like how far away is the building from a fire hydrant? That piece of information is available online. There's no reason for a human to have to transfer that onto an accord form and then send that accord form to someone. There's just no reason for a human to have to transfer that onto an accord form and then send that accord form to someone. There's just no reason for that. Yeah, no, I can't debate that. I mean, I think it was at AppliedNet. We were actually on a panel talking about this, right? Like, do you think our customers really know when their electrical

is updated? They might, but they're of the opinion like the opinion, like, Hey, you tell me you go, it should be out there. Why don't you go get it? Right. And so like solutions like, um, that you talked about, I mean, historically the underwriters had to go out and manually pull all this information. So as this gets better, I'm very bullish that, um, we're going to really key in on being advisors and having the discussions that you talked about. I mean, that was, that was what I loved most about my job when I was out in the field underwriting and meeting with my agency partners is okay. Hey, let's, let's go get business together. Right. Cause that underwriter has that local knowledge should know it more

intimately. And so they can bring that value back to the agent saying, Hey, I mean, one thing I would always do is be like, Hey, I'm part of this church. Are you guys, have you guys approached the board? Right? If not, let's talk about this. This is something I want to write. And I some of the carriers it's developing. I mean, obviously I'm betting six months you, as you go, you develop, but I just, I think that is the key. And so many agents miss that. So many of these don't even know who their underwriter is. And I'll tell you the companies that give you the random rolling underwriter, um, not that that model doesn't work, but I will say there's a disconnect there that makes it tough. And it doesn't mean you need to talk to the same person every time, but it's nice to have a point person or a standard point of contact. Or a strong marketing rep connection who you can go to and say, here's what I'm trying to get done. Who do I need to talk to?

And they can point you. But when you've got to call a phone tree to get to your underwriter and it's like dial one for sales and it's like sales what i need to talk to somebody about an account and then you start parenting zero like isn't there a seinfeld episode or something where you start hitting zero hoping you get an operator um okay so um so from where you sit and i know you're involved in in a lot of these projects and you're dealing with with agencies and stuff too and um like what do you see coming like when you just forecast out you know and pick whatever idea is the most interesting to you there's no real agenda to this question other than i'm just interested as as a as a carrier

uh as working for a carrier, the unique kind of situation you're in with the culture you guys have, you have your fingers out and stuff. I know people are coming and talking to you. I know you're talking to other people, nothing specific, just what are some of the bigger ideas or ideas that you see coming down the pipe that, um, people should just either think are cool or start to prepare for or anything like that? Yeah, man, that's a loaded question. Wow. You know, I'll kind of speak through one lens, and that's just because I live, you know, we live and breathe it every day and kind of what we're doing here at employers and in alternative distribution. I think we're going to see more and more, and I wouldn't say this isn't surprising,

right, but the current environment, COVID has really fast-tracked a lot of this. We're going to see more and more agents wanting to create and control digital experiences, not only just from like acquiring customer, right, because at the end of the day, insurance will continue to be relationship based and local and you know a lot of times when you're talking to an agent it's hey that's my relationship that's my client so how can we expand that and one of those ways for us to do that is support you in creating the agents have become uh are starting to get really good at digital marketing and social media in pockets, where the disconnect that we're seeing is, and then once you send them or get them to your page or whatever you're landing on, you're giving them like the old school, like lead gen page, right? Like, and then a hope and a

prayer, someone calls you back or emails you back to say, Hey, let's, let's talk more. So I think in the short term, that's, there's going to be a lot of focus on creating digital storefronts or creating a buying experience where that customer, once they find you on the internet somehow, whether it's through SEM, SEO, affiliate marketing, and they end up at your website or your experience, they can go even further than just leaving their name and address or phone number or email to get a call back. It will be now like, hey, I can answer a few questions, get a quote, or even bind it or even pay for it. And I think even longer term, you'll see more of that transition into the post-bind

and servicing aspect, you know, endorsements, things like that, where the agent can continue to focus on what we talked about is, you know, getting out on the streets, meeting with our clients, advising, being, you know, human, empathizing when those claims come in and being able to really focus on the important pieces of the business versus getting bogged down on historically what's been like legacy systems and processes. Yeah. Between this podcast interview and I had a call with another agent and we were talking about when I was looking at his website and he's relatively new and he forces his clients through a few paths that allow him to, you know, and we were talking, I was asking him why he forced him to do it. So specifically things like cert, cert, certificate requests and some of the things that they

can do self-service, um, also all service requests need to come through a certain portal and it was mobile friendly and stuff too. So it wasn't like you're, you know, just limiting to them to having to come to their computer, but it did force them down a process. And I said to him, you know, how has that worked for you? And he said, what it allowed by forcing them to do the transactional things the way we need them done, we're able to do the relation, we're able to spend more time doing the relationship things with them. And that's how he positions it is look, I know it's easier for you to just text me a VIN number and say, Hey, can you make this change? But what happens for us is that takes so much time and effort. Things get lost. Numbers get, it's hard. If you can just go to this page, input the information the way we ask, then we can spend

more time making sure it's right. You know, making sure that everything's taken care of, that we can get, you know, I'm not doing exactly his pitch justice, but that idea of creating a digital experience a certain way in the effort to free up the relationship and human side of the business. I, I, I fully agree with you and I couldn't, couldn't agree more that that is a big part of our future. And, and, and I'll say this again too. And, um, you know, and I have thoroughly enjoyed the relationship that you and I have started to

build and I'm looking forward to doing more and more business with employers. I think deeper connections to our carriers is another big part of it. And, and being discerning, being discerning about those relationships. Like I took on a relationship and I freaking regret it. And, and because it's a pain in the ass, but there are other relationships that I'm like, God, if they were all like this, it would be, you know, it'd be amazing. I think investing in and, and cause there are carriers that are coming our way. And I think as agents, I hope that we're listening. We start to invest in the carriers that are coming our way. And that's part of the reason I wanted to have you guys on because I think, you know,

have you on, but in part to talk about employers is because I think you guys are a great example of a carrier that is doing the work to come to agents that you're, you're in versus making us come all the way to you. You're starting to agents that you're, you're in versus making us come all the way to you. You're starting to close that ground. And I, I hope more carriers learn from that because it's a, it's nice. It really is. And it helps. And I, it makes a difference. It's noticed. Yeah, no, well, we appreciate it. I mean, I can't take credit for it. It's really the folks before me that laid the foundation and the Doug Dirks of the world and the Ray Wises, the folks at the senior, you know, senior leadership level. And this is more like the insurance nerd in me, but it's just fascinating to even think about the employer's journey of 20 years ago, we were just a state fund for Nevada.

And our CEO steps in as I think like a KPMG consultant, discovers that, hey, we are bleeding close to $2 billion. And we're going to go and solve it in a matter of weeks, if not days. And now transforming it into a publicly traded national carrier that is very much a technology first thinking kind of company. Just kudos to everyone in the employer's family that made that happen. At the end of the day for us, Ryan, our core principle with what we want to do is we want to empower our agents. I think where some folks get concerned, like, is the carrier trying to disrupt me? Are they trying to circumvent me? I mean, our core principle, and you'll hear this across the board from our senior leaders is we will continue to roll out technology services solution that will

empower our agents to provide better service for our customers. Yeah, I think you're on it, man. And I hope that, um, I hope, I hope everyone, I hope everyone listening to this is, was, was, was really dialed into what this, um, I think the language that you used and not, and I know it's not just you, you know what I mean? But I, but you is, it's what we need. This, this is the future of what relationships look like from a carrier and agency perspective in our industry. I think that the carriers that continue to make agents bridge the whole expanse of the gap between them are going to start to struggle. Agents are going to start to shy away from them. And look, some of them have so much premium, maybe they don't care, but I'll say a line that I heard the other day. You know, there are a lot of organizations that are losing so slowly, they think they're winning. And I think COVID and technology, 5G, you know, more automated processes,

more telematics, even though I don't necessarily believe in telematics, things like that. I think these things are rapidly changing the game. And I don't know that three to five years from now, we will be able to look up and I don't think you'll be able to lose so slow. You think you're winning. I think you'll know. And I think that the answer, the lesson there is there are things you can do.

Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely believe in that. And I'm just very bullish on insurance in our industry and continue to be. So you've done, you let me do most of the talking. I'm going to throw some questions back. You kind of do like a rapid fire. Oh yeah, sure. Go ahead.

More like personal fun questions. So some of the folks that might be listening or um, or maybe not as familiar with you, um, just close it out with a little bit of fun. So, and I'm going to steal this idea from, uh, from Adam B who's our social media manager. So, um, some of this kind of quite, you know, serious personal fun questions. So like who or what would you say has helped, helped shape you in the person you are today? Wow. That's a big one. Um, so I'd say I was blessed with two very loving parents, neither one perfect, but incredibly loving. So I was blessed in so much as I got to see what that looks like. So that was nice. And then I was blessed with a lot of really good sports coaches. Sports really shaped me into who I am. I had some old school blue collar coaches, cigar smoking on third base, you know, the big burly football coach who would literally take you

on in no pads and you're in full gear, you know, in high school and knock you down kind of guys. And they really taught me. I was blessed to learn very early what it was like to get knocked down and then have that same person reach down with their hand and pick you back up and say, hey, just keep going. So I think that sports and a pretty lucky on the parents have really shaped me into the type of person I am. That's awesome. What's something you're curious about right now to be inside or outside of insurance, personal or professional? So I am really into, right now I'm really into

personally, this is, well, there's a couple of things. I'm really into nootropics and brain hacking right now. I would say I'm in early stages of things. I'm really into nootropics and brain hacking right now. I would say I'm in early stages of research. About three years ago, I took a deep dive into inflammation and living an anti-inflammatory life. I fall off that horse sometimes, but I know how to get back on now, which is very good because inflammation is basically the root cause of our death. And limiting inflammation prolongs our life and our happiness and our mood and a lot of really good things. And I've started reading a book by Ben Greenfield called Boundless. It is enormous book. It is a pretty incredible book. And that's what I'm geeking out on now when I'm not doing insurance or my family, I'm kind of geeking out on, uh,

how to hack my brain to for better focus, for more creativity, for more energy, um, that kind of stuff. Uh, professionally, um, I don't know. There's so much going on. I don't know that I have a thing that I can share, uh, professionally. Very cool. Uh, All right. And the last one, I feel like everyone asks this in insurance or any other job, right? So what profession other than your own, would you like to attempt? That's a good, that's a good, that's a good question. Well, if, if I, my, my 10 year old self would say that I always wanted to be a baseball player.

That's a very kind of trite answer to a certain extent. But I really, really, really love the nuances of that game. I just did. I just loved it. And I would love to coach it. Like maybe not even a player because I was never good enough. But I would love to still be in sports somehow. I wish that I was involved. I just feel so strongly about what they do.

I feel like I feel unfortunately, like a lot of the social unrest that we currently are dealing with is because sports have been corrupted in many ways to not necessarily be what they are and teach the lessons that they taught me, I guess. Maybe that's just my perspective. But I would love that. Otherwise, dude, I just love, I love working in teams. I wish I, I can't wait till Rogue has a team. I miss working in teams.

When I got to work at Agency Nation and manage a team and lead a team, that was some of the most fun days I've ever had in work. Just battling with people to get the most out of them. Like, how do you take this person and provide them with the environment and the encouragement and the tools and whatever it is that they need, whatever their fuel is, how do I get that to them so that they can be their best version of themselves as often as they're capable of being like that part of leadership to me is enthralling. And I could read and talk about that

all day because I find that to be interesting. The industry is far less important, I guess, than it is. I love watching someone light up and just do just come up with something, even if it feels trivial but just figuring something out and seeing that look on their face and you're like yes i love that they got there you know i just think that's awesome yeah i hear you cool man well that was that was really it just kind of figured give you some some some time yeah i don't know most of the time i'm answering the questions are just blabbing so that's that's fun no i appreciate you doing that well dude hey i thank you for coming on i've we bounced around a lot on getting this one had i feel like both of our schedules just like

you know whether it was you or it was me we were always kind of canceling on each other which is which is fine it's just funny but i'm glad we finally got it done and um i really enjoyed it we went to one a bunch of places a bunch of places and you gave us some tremendous stuff and I'm happy that you and I have started to get to know each other. I've really enjoyed the conversations that we have and I look forward to the future and I'm just, I'm very happy and honored to be part, you know, to be partnered with employers as one of your agents. So I'm looking forward to the future and just thanks, I appreciate it yeah likewise we are so we're excited to have you as part of the employers family also tired of hearing about this Ryan

Hanley guy when we run around in the same circles from like and I'm like all right we've got to I've got to figure out a way to get in front of this dude so really appreciate it. Thanks, man. Be good. Cheers. close twice as many deals by this time next week sound impossible it's not with the one call close system you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call. This is the exact method we use to close 1,200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle-tested, the one-call closed system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible.

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