The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 077 - Jay Mueller

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comJay Mueller, agency principal at Camargo Insurance, breaks down his power move in 2018 to take control of the future of his agency and build the business he wants to work in. This is an episode you don't want to miss... Get more: https://ryanhanley.com/Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you with the owner of Camargo Insurance, Jay Muller. Someone who I've gotten to know over the last few months and we had a chance to talk on the phone and just I heard his story and what he has going on and some of the decisions he's made in his agency and how he kind of is just another tremendous example of someone using an independent insurance agency to build the lifestyle, the work style, to build the exact business that they want in their life that supports both the meaningfulness of the work and the lifestyle that they ultimately want. And I think Jay's a great guy. I love what he's doing. And he is putting in place some of the

building blocks for what is going to be an absolutely tremendous agency. Well, Margo is a great agency already, but he's kind of doing things to set them up to go even further. And we talk a lot about that. And this is just a great all-around episode that I think you're really going to enjoy. Before we get there, I want to give a shout out to Better Agency. So Better Agency is one of the sponsors of this show. They make the show possible. And I am also a user of Better Agency. So Better Agency is the CRM that drives rogue risk. We use it for all our communications, all our emails, all our texts. We keep our attachments there. We keep our notes there. We trigger tasks out to other tools. I use Better Agency to trigger personalized postcards that I send out through thanks.io.

And it's all easily managed both visually and from just an agency workflow standpoint. They're adding new features almost on a weekly basis it feels like. And they've added all the commercial line stuff and that's continuing to get better. So it, you know, I've said this for a while about Better Agency. If you are a, if you're a personal lines focused agency, there's literally no better CRM on the market. And now with your most recent update and the, you know, just kind of what's been proposed coming in the next few updates, they are rapidly becoming just an all-around universal best-in-class CRM for the insurance industry.

And it is well worth your time to get a demo and at least know what Better Agency can do. That's betteragency.io. Go to betteragency.io. Get the demo. Do the trial. I think it's like 14 days for a buck. $1, 14 days. You get to try it out. Some of the best and most forward-thinking agency owners

in our industry have leaned into Better Agency. I couldn't be happier with the product myself. All right. Go to Betteragency.io and let's get on to Jay Muller. There he is. What's up, man? What's going on? Dude, you look amped up. I am ready to go. Yeah. I got my, I got my, my, my nine essential amino acids in me and I just got my workout in and there you go. I was pounding some chicken real quick. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling real good. That's good. You do the midday workout. Is that your routine? So what actually happened was I have a buddy of mine who he's actually, he's also a mortgage broker and he sends me some business and stuff but he's a buddy first probably and um i told him the other day that i've been getting

into boxing for like cardio and um and that kind of stuff i added that into my workout because i just i just hate running like yeah you know i try to mix in like three to five miles when i can but like i just hate it. Like, it's just not fun. Like, I get done with it and I'm just like, ah, I ran, you know, whatever. So about two months ago, I started researching boxing. I'm not really looking to punch anybody, nor do I really want to be punched at 40 years old. But certainly the workout.

And I've kind of really started to get into it so he used to be a boxer or you know did some amateur boxing and um so he's got like a whole gym in his basement so i went over this morning and we did like a cool kind of circuit workout and then uh and then you know as much as i probably should have been cold calling, I did a bunch of errands that I had to run for the family. So the rest of the day, I'll- Life does happen and things have to happen. Yeah. And because I'm the work from home spouse, I get tasked often with like, hey, can we stop at the store and pick this up?

And if you're driving by this store, pick this up. So I just got all that crap out of the way. Well, that's good. Those, those, I got way, I got so far away from my workout routine over the last, I don't know, six months or something. And I go, I get in cycles in and out of it where I'm very diligent about it. And for me, the morning workout is the best one because that gets the blood flowing, gets my brain going. I just, it gets me in a, like in a zone for the rest of the day. Um, but then inevitably something will happen and it's like, man, I know I'm not going to get to everything today or this week. So I need that hour or that 30 minutes. And no matter what time I wake up in the morning, like I just, I wake up and I'm like,

got to go into the office, but then I get away from it for a period of time. And next thing you know, I'm just, I'm not as on point. I'm not like, I'm not where I need to be. And I, I got to get back to, to, to doing the thing. So I actually, I got, I started running. And I, I am not a huge fan of running. However, I recently, my goal has been to not work hard as ironic as that might sound. I'm like, I need to be consistent period. I don't care if I run for 10 minutes in the morning, like just move your body in the morning and do something and you're going to feel better and don't, and don't get too far into it because that's what I'll do is I'll start whether it's running or lifting or whatever the heck it is, like I start doing it and then I just want to do it like more and then, you know, be better and better and better.

And then I build up this own pressure in my head, which is pointless because I don't plan on or need to run a marathon or run fast or lift lots of weights or anything. You need to be freaking healthy and feel good. That's really it and just being consistent with uh setting the bar low with my workout routine is kind of where i feel like i need to be right now i feel the same exact way i i get the unfortunate thing for and i shouldn't say unfortunate because i think it's helped me in some ways but i just once i lock into something i kind of obsess about it so like if i'm like with the boxing thing, I'm now like watching YouTube videos about throwing punches. And I'm literally saying to myself, I am never getting into a ring at, you know, like, those days are over. Like I'm never I don't want anyone

to punch me in the face. Like I have zero desire. But at the same time, because I'm doing, and I do really like the workout and I really, the mix of strength and speed and core, I really like it. I feel great, but, but yeah, so I'm going like, how much, what am I, why am I researching this so much? But you know, whatever, it's all good. It, good it you know it I think that kind of obsession you know I I definitely obsess about good things for for business and you know try to obsess I try to obsess about positive things or productive things as well though I guess the working out could be productive but um it's all good it's's all good. The COVID definitely, I was way off of center because of the COVID. Not COVID itself, but just all the craziness. And then I probably got a little too

caught up into the political stuff. And since the election happened, I basically said to myself, I said to myself the day before the election, whatever happens, whoever is the president, whatever stuff, like I'm shutting it off. I'm going to very loosely follow what's happening. Just from like an interest standpoint, I'm not going to like get on Twitter and express my opinion, which I found myself doing occasionally. And unfortunately, and this is so off context, and I promise everyone who's listening, we will pull this back into why Jay's actually on the show, but I have a blue check on Twitter. And I got that because four or five years ago, a buddy of mine who was working for Twitter, working with Twitter, they were looking

for, quote unquote, influence. And I hate that word. And everyone who's going to say, you know, influencer, I'm not, I don't think of myself in that way. They were looking for people in other industries other than like media and celebrities to give the blue check to. They wanted people and others, and they did it in financial services, real estate, they did it all these different industries. And they just happened to, you know, he reached out to me and he said, Hey, do you want this? If you, you know what I mean? It's, it does come with baggage was what he said. And it does because, because you have that blue check, people respond more to some of the things that you write. And, um, I am right leaning, I could say, which is awful because on many, many issues, I'm also very left. You know, I'm more of a human than these machines

that operate these talking heads on both sides. You're human-wining? Yeah, I mean, in general, I tend to be of a more, you know, whatever. I'm more of a capitalist, I guess, probably than anything. It doesn't matter. There's the whole social and fiscal thing, in that for whatever reason, they get grouped together. 100%. And that is the biggest shame I think of the whole thing is you have people, and this is actually how it got started, I wrote a tweet that said, I love, I hate racism and bigotry, but I also hate socialism.

And I really hate that I can't hate both of those things at the same time. That was the tweet, right? Because essentially what had been preached, and again, if you're listening, you're probably going to hate me if your views are different after this. But this was the thought process was, I, you know. You just tweeted something that like you, maybe this was the point. Now everybody gets to hate you for that statement. Yes. Yes. Now everyone hates me on both sides because people are like, you're supposed to, I thought you were a Republican. And I'm like, nah, not really.

I mean, I voted for Obama the first time. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not really a Republican. I'm not really a Democrat. I kind of just, I really like people, but I also think people, I also like capitalism because I've read too much about socialism and gulag. You know, I read the gulag archipelago and I read about Nazi Germany and some things that happened in Ethiopia and stuff. And so I understand what happens when socialism comes in. I understand what the triggers are. So I have this very clear opinion. It's not just me like, oh, capitalism, you know, like America, like I actually have an opinion. And I was stupid enough to voice that opinion. And from that day on it like, I'm just so I said stop. And from surprisingly, I'm in a much better mood every day now that I'm not involved. So.

Well, I never knew anything about the blue check. So I'm, I'm, I love my LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is fun until, you know, until you get the annoying, like now everybody wants to send me the automated message. But outside of that, LinkedIn is interesting. Like people post interesting stuff. It's cool. I freaking hate Facebook. I never got into Twitter. I probably should to, you know, for marketing purposes, whatever. But I just never really got into Twitter. So the blue check, I knew nothing about it. Now I know something. Yeah, it basically means you're a verified account and they've stopped. Like about two years ago, they stopped giving out blue checks so it's like a thing and um to be honest with you i never when i only tweeted before i ever tweeted anything that had to do with politics when it was only just insurance it meant nothing it was really just like i didn't even realize it was there and then the first time that i tweeted anything about

politics um one i found out how addictive it can be so when you see these people who say crazy crazy shit just to get more attention i kind of got a taste of that um because i had a tweet actually go viral that hit like one point something million people because i wrote um i wrote uh this is before andrew lang before Andrew Yang went super identity, intersectional politics person. But like when he was just talking about fiscal and problem solving, and he seemed very rational and very thought out. I was like, hmm, if you took this guy, and you attached like a Tulsi Gabbard to the as a VP candidate, that combo could give Trump a serious run for the money. That was the tweet, something like that. Oh my God, dude. My likes were like, like my phone. I had to like fix my phone. It was insane. And I was like, I can see why these people get addicted to this because I mean, it was crazy

how many people were just hitting that like button. um and i just and it's not healthy i mean what i learned from maybe the last six months of being and i don't want to say that i'm involved in any way but just not having the self-discipline to not get involved i guess probably the right way to put it um is that i i completely understand why celebrities and these media personalities and people get addicted to saying this stuff and having these opinions and being so inflammatory is it is intoxicating. It really is. I mean, it's intoxicating to look at your Twitter and see 7,000 likes on a post. I mean, you know, I mean, on some level,

we all like to have attention and just this amplification of attention. And that's like, of course we're going to like that. Like who, who wouldn't like people liking you. And when you can multiply that times a gazillion now, now that's a powerful thing. Yeah. Even though rationally, you know, it's unhealthy, but dude, now that's a powerful thing. Yeah. Even though rationally, you know, it's unhealthy. But dude, I want to talk.

So, okay. So to give everyone, to reframe our conversation, we had the opportunity to talk maybe, what was it, about a month ago? So it was still nice out. I was pacing my pool when we were having the conversation. And, you know, we were just talking a little bit about your story and your background and the things that you have going on. And, you know, we were talking about a whole bunch of stuff. And I just, you know, I was like, man, I just want to have this conversation as much as you're willing to have it in this format, because it just was the kind of story and just some of your thought processes and the way you approach different things. And, you know, what really hit me was you having the guts to kind of refocus

and do that work. And some of that stuff, like, I think there's something really, really powerful there. So one, I appreciate you coming on. And two, why don't you, I'd love for you to just to kind of jump in a little bit, maybe maybe talk a little bit for people who haven't met you before. Just just tell them a little bit about your, you know, the agency and what you have going on. And then we can go from there. Sure. And before I dive into it, we always have music pumping in here and I have no idea if that's... Nope, you're good, bro. All right. So, yeah. So, let's see. The Jay Muller story in a nutshell. Family insurance agency, same way that many of us have gotten into it. You know, my, my dad ran the agency. He was, uh, he was a partner and I got into the business around 2007. Um, and about, you know, five years or so in,

I was starting to really have some success as, as a producer, you know, build my book. Uh, money was good, taking home a nice paycheck. Um, But I just had this feeling that what we were doing was unsustainable in a lot of ways. Like the amount of work we were doing was becoming ridiculous. The way we were doing it was just, it was becoming more and more clear that it was completely archaic. And, and that's not a knock on like on that agency at all. Like it was, it was an, is an amazing agency, uh, that built a book of clients who love them and that they service extremely well. Uh, but the game clearly was changing rapidly, had changed rapidly, like, and it was passing us by. So, you know, it's, it's, thing, but there's just, you're seeing that, that things are changing and the path to change to real change is not an easy one. And it's not

a clear one. So how do you, there were a number of kind of triggers that pushed me over the edge and just caused me to tear down the entire thing, really risk the entire thing. I had to be operating in a space where I was willing to just throw it away to be able to move past that sort of, um, that built-in, uh, structure that kept me doing what I was doing. So I think it was probably, you know, in 2000, it was in 2017 or in there, I just kind of reached a tipping point. I was working myself ragged. I was just working nonstop. The book, you know, my book of business was growing, but because of some kind of complicated ownership structure, I couldn't hire people around me to help me, but the opportunities are still coming in. So I'm just like selling and selling and selling.

And I, I just can't do anything to change the way that I'm operating or felt like I couldn't. Um, and I remember telling my wife, I said, I've got 10 years and I'm done. Like if I do this for another 10 years and I'm still here, I'm promising you today, I'm going to sell this thing. Like wherever we are, I'm done because I can't do this to you anymore. I can't do it to myself anymore. I don't, I don't feel good as a father when my, like my day is all about going in, going

into a grind that I know doesn't have a long-term future because of the way that the organization is set up. And, and I'm just doing it to take home a paycheck so that I can retire early. I know doesn't have a long-term future because of the way that the organization is set up. And, and I'm just doing it to take home a paycheck so that I can retire early. Not that there's anything wrong, anything that's really wrong with that, but it just, it was just eating me apart. And, and when I wasn't, because it was such a huge part of my life, that, that became a very unhealthy thing for everyone around me. You know, it was like, it was, it became this toxic thing, which was so unfortunate because it's a business that I freaking love. Um, and it was, it was just

eating me up inside. So I, you know, I had, I kind of changed the chip and I said, okay, I'm just going to do this for 10 more years and I'll be out and that's it. Um, and around that time, my, you know, my son was getting a little bit older. I say a little bit older, he's probably like three or something, you know, started to talk a little bit and, you know, engage more. And I really think it might have been fatherhood maybe that, that really, that really pushed me over the edge. But I just decided, like, no, I'm not going to do that. I love this business. I want to change this business and build something that has power for the next 30 years, not the next three.

And I don't want to be this, like like I don't want the image of me as a as a father and husband to be this guy that just goes in and works every day for for a paycheck and it's kind of miserable because of what he does like that what the heck is that like what kind of example am I am I am I giving so I really started thinking about like what well, okay, well, what do I really enjoy doing? Like if I'm going to change this thing, what do I enjoy? What am I good at? Um, and I, I realized I, I would like to lead a team of people. Um, I would like to introduce people to the amazing careers that insurance has to offer because it is an amazing industry to get into.

We lose sight of that sometimes. And I really, like, I get a high off of empowering other people. Like, when I can show someone else a path to success and help them achieve that, I just, I love that. So I knew that if I could build an organization that could offer success that could successfully empower others and and show people a path to success in perpetuity that that was a scalable thing and I just started to create this vision of of what the organization could look like even though I was still very much, you know, I was in the day-to-day of the other thing. I just, I took some time every day, usually before the day started, you know, before

my head got bogged down with emails and all this other crap, you know, that comes in where all of a sudden the brain is spinning in a zillion directions about what is very urgent right now. And I would just think about this vision of what could be. And I think the most, that's an idea, you know, the idea of the power of visions is something that I've continued with as we transition to this new model. And I think the most important piece about creating a powerful and effective vision is that it is completely detached from how you're going to achieve it. And maybe that's counterintuitive, but when I found that when I'm stuck in the how, the how is what creates the vision as opposed to

the vision itself. And it has to start with the vision itself. So saying, okay, five years from now, not just with my business, but with my professional life, with my family life, what do I want that to look like? Like I'm, you know, standing outside of the house, looking at it, you know, describing it in as much detail as possible. What does that thing look like? And the more times you kind of run through that process, the more real it becomes. And then, you know, you can back into a path to get to that place. And if somewhere along the line, you're like, okay, well, you know, I want to be a billionaire in five years. Well, okay. Maybe we do need to think about the how there, but, but you really got to check yourself when you start thinking about, well, I can't do that because of this, or this, this is not going to work because of that thing. So, so I started developing this vision of what I, what I wanted

the agency to be and, and trying to, you know, exploring opportunities of, you know, okay, what is something that could allow me to get out of this, this path that I'm stuck in and there was sort of a shake-up in ownership structure we'll say and it was crazy it was like the we had a meeting and I just I saw the opportunity and it was like it was like a gigantic like lever that smacked me in the face and it was like this is the thing like this is the opportunity to take control of this organization and move forward. And it didn't, it was that I didn't let it go a minute past from when I saw it to when I said, this is happening. And that was early in 2018. And from that moment forward, all of 2018 was making that happen and planning for 2019 when we implemented our new agency model.

So there's a lot there to unpack. Thank you for that because there's a lot there. The first thing that I want to talk about is or ask you about is, and this is something that I have found very much in my own work and just life in general is, and I don't want this to sound too fluffy, but, but so, so take it, take it for, for what it is. I find that if my work isn't feeding my soul in some way, if that makes sense, what I'm saying to you, you know, I don't want it to be too ethereal, but if it's not satisfying me, or if I'm not getting a sense of fulfillment from it, I'm kind of a shitty person in every other aspect of my life. And it drives my wife crazy, because she'll say like, your, your, our home life is so good, which it is, I'm blessed, I have a tremendous spouse and great kids and a good family. And she'll say, why doesn't, why does it matter what's happening at

work? And I, I really struggled to detach what's happening at work. It doesn't mean everything has to be going good, but the work has to be satisfying. And if it's not, man, I, I really, I, it carries over, it bleeds into other aspects of my life. Is that what you were finding? Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it was very, I don't have any problem working very long days. You know, I still do that. I think it's, I think that the most, the most effective business leaders oftentimes don't do that. Like they find a way to be really effective with the time that they have. But there are periods when, you know, you just got to do that thing. But when I was in that space of, to your point, like my soul was not happy with what I was

doing, then you pile in these long hours on top of it. And it's just like, man, this is a, I don't want to say I was miserable, because I wasn't. I mean, I wasn't a miserable person. But I was not a happy person outside of work. And that's, that's not a good thing for me or anybody around me. And to me, that's the beauty of this business. And one of the things that I've learned from rogue is because you can craft an insurance agency into basically anything that you want it to be, right? It can be pure sales, you know, Wolf of wall street kind of stuff. It can be laid back. It can be local. It can be digital. It can be niche. It can be generalist. I was just listening to Steve Holley on Carothers podcast and he runs this great, you know, he calls it a generalist main street agency, three locations yet he's driven off a hub spot. So there's nothing traditional about Steve Holley's operation. But, but, you know, and, and, and even in that, in that is its own monster, right? He is very digital, but also local. So my point in saying all that is, it's like, if we, we, there's definitely a disconnect because of how flexible our career is.

There is definitely a disconnect when you don't feel rewarded, right? Or, or, or because you, you, logically, I can turn this thing into something that really makes me happy. So why isn't that there, right? It's very weird feeling. Yeah, you know, and we're in such a crazy spot now and have been for years. Because of, you know, it's been said over and over again, but it's so true. There's all there's all these shiny objects out there. And it's like, Oh, I can change it by this, doing this thing or that thing, or I'm going to buy this solution or that solution. There is no solution that can be purchased. There are zero solutions that can be bought in this lifetime. Uh, and certainly in this business, um, that was, that was, I think was a,

a lesson that I learned as I went, as I went through this process, because when I did finally sort of set myself free from this other structure, I'm like, oh, I can't do this because of that. I'm like, all right, now I can do whatever I want. And I was at Elevate in 2018, and I think I bought every shiny object, like, you know, that every vendor was offering. And I was like, oh, crap, I can't put it all together. So then I had to, you know, restructure it all with a better, more clear vision. I don't know where I'm going with that. No, I get it. I get it. I get it. You, you, you almost want, and this,

and I very much do what you just described is what I did. I had a whole battle plan rolling into rogue seven days in zombie apocalypse happens. I get, you know, I was planning on tacking the fitness market doesn't exist in New York state anymore. My next plan was to go after the restaurant market that doesn't exist anymore. So now I'm literally the two campaigns that I had figured would, would be the first six to 12 months of the existence of my agency are not, I have not set my agency up for personal lines. I was like going to be commercial. I was

going to go after fitness and restaurants. And that, that was my plan. It gone, complete toast. So like all of a sudden I started filling that void of with, well, what if I change from like, uh, I had this awesome build out from Austin Moorhead and Infusionsoft and, uh, uh, and, and, uh, well, what if I changed from that to agency zoom? And then if I changed from agency zoom toom to Better Agency, which I love. Actually, I love all three of those tools. You can't go wrong with any of them.

I'm on Better Agency now. But I changed three times. I went from this tool to that tool to try this to this program. And because I was trying to fill this void, I think, that you just talked about, something feels wrong. Something isn't working. And instead of just, and ultimately, we'll get to this instead of kind of figuring out what I actually wanted and executing, I was trying to do all these different things, hoping something would be a magic pill. And it's like, what's so I guess I don't want to say funny,

I guess funny now. But what's funny is that like, we've been told a million times not to do that 10 million times. Every person ever said, don't do that. And yet we still do it. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk about this. And then I want to take this into kind of where you actually went was, I love this concept of detaching the how from what you want. And I'd love for you to break that down. Like, where did you get that from? How did you figure that out? How did you stay detached? Because my mind always goes to, like, I'll give you an example. So there was something in Better Agency that I wanted to do that, that they haven't released the update yet. I know it's coming, but it's not there. My mind immediately goes to, well, geez, if I just switched over to this other tool, I know

it can do it right now. So why don't I do that? That is such a ridiculous mental jump, right? Because I was immediately went to the how do I achieve this thing I want to achieve instead of staying focused on the broader vision of what I was trying to do, having some perspective and understanding and pushing forward. So how did you stay detached from the how and where did you get that idea to begin with? Yeah. I think there were kind of two critical moments that kind of helped me with that philosophy and to the best of my ability, you know, live to it. I'm not going to say I'm like, you know, I'm there all the time. But it was when I was first creating the vision for the new model of Camargo and was blessed with

an amazing business mentor who really helped me when I was faced with a crisis that I didn't know how to handle. One of the first exercises we really got down to it was, where do you see Camargo Insurance in five years? As soon as I started running down a path of like how to do this thing or that it was like wait a second I didn't say how you gonna get there it's what what do you want it to be and because I was in such such a I felt like I was in such a trapped situation I really had to just focus on the vision. There was no how, like the

how was insane. The how was a totally crazy idea, which we finally did, which involved risking everything. So like, if I'm focused on that thing, I'm never going to be able to focus on what I actually want it to be. So that was the first time. And then I met another business leader here locally, who is he's really into this vivid vision process and that's where I kind of took that to another level and took it from just the business to life overall and it's not so you break it down you know it's literally a process say okay well what is my vision of my business what is my vision of my career which is different and then what is my vision of my business? What is my vision of my career, which is different? And then what is my vision of my family life? And what is my vision of my personal life? So those

are, those are different things. And a lot of times we just group them all together. Um, and when I saw the way that, um, that he created his own and how it evolved over time and really the power of thinking through those things, I just loved it. And when I'm really, really using that idea to its fullest, and I will not tell you that I stick to this all the time, kind of like working out. It's like I do it and then I float out of it. Then I get back into it. It's when it's in the morning before anything starts. And that vivid vision is, I mean, it's a document.

I have it, you know, saved in Google Docs and literally gets updated. You know, I'd go in there. Okay, well, these things changed. But it's always, what does this thing look like in five years? This thing, whether that, you know, again, that's me, that's my career, that's Camargo or that's my family. Um, and describing it in as much detail as possible. And there, I mean, there's a lot of power in, in the brain and it's, it's either, it's either,

the brain either limits us or it empowers us depending on how we use it. When we get stuck and how we're going to do something, then it becomes limiting because it's, it's like a, it's a, it's a loop, um, as opposed to expanding it and saying, well, anything is possible. And once, once you, once I got a little bit better at that, it became a lot of fun because then, well, if I'm detached from the hell, I can envision anything I want. And, you know, uh, for example, I mean, my family and I were moving to Spain next year. Now that's something we've been planning on for over 10 years. It's not like, you know, for example, I mean, my family and I were moving to Spain next year. Now, that's something we've been planning on for over 10 years. It's not like, you know, created that yesterday in my vision.

I'm like, I'm going to move out of the country. But she's from Spain. Her family is over there. We've been planning that, you know, return to that country for a long time. I will continue to run the business. I'll be back and forth. And I've been doing that for probably 10 years where we go over there every summer. I usually come back for a couple of weeks, take care of anything else we've done in person. And then we're over there for usually a month over the holidays.

And during different periods of our life when we've had to be there for certain things, I've probably spent six months or more per year there. So it's not like out of the blue, but those kinds of things, if you think about, if I told you today, well, I'm going to leave the country and, you know, move my family somewhere else. Well, how are you going to do that? Well, like, why not? Like news, newsflash, nobody has to see anybody in person anymore. So why are we sitting where we are? Like, really, why, why are we here? Just because I was here before. That's it. I think, wow, that's crazy. You know, that is, you know, and I don't mean that like in a negative sense. That's just, it takes this idea of kind of envisioning what you want and executing on it to like a whole nother level. I mean, the idea of running an agency from a different country,

specifically a country across the ocean where you couldn't just, if there's a problem, you know what I mean? You can't be there the next day. I mean, you have to, I mean, maybe I guess you can, but it's not like it's, not like you want to do that, nor is it easy. You can't just, you know,

kind of leak down from Canada or something, you know? But then when we think about it, I think, okay, well can't just you know kind of leak down from canada or something you know um but then we think about it okay well i you know we we use uh we began using vas this year i mean they're in india so what how come i'm in cincinnati and my vas are in india and half my team is across the river in kentucky the other half is here in the office cincinnati well the other whatever percent is here in the office and the other rest of them are somewhere else in Ohio. You know, it's all fiber optics. Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, I, um, I have, I have a VA who lives in the Philippines. Who's right now, unfortunately, uh, he's experiencing a typhoon and hasn't had power for two days, but, um, though he is safe, which is good. Um, uh, and I, my,

my producer, she lives in Staten Island, which is might as well be a different world from, from upstate New York. You know what I mean? Across the water, right? Yeah. She's, she's three plus hours away. I mean, you know, we've never even met in person ever. So, um, and, and we work perfectly fine. We zoomed yesterday for an hour and a half ever. So, um, and, and we work perfectly fine. We zoomed yesterday for an hour and a half catching up. And, um, and it's just funny, you know what I mean? Like, I, I think that this, this way of thinking, um, you know, there is something, there is something very appealing about being the local agency, right? The, the, you know, Hey, stop in. And there's something appealing about that to me, but,

and I actually put a lot of thought into this a couple of weeks ago. You kind of, at a certain point you have to mash who you are against what you think sounds like a good idea. Being the local agency here in Albany sounds like a good idea to me, right? It sounds nice. Oh yeah, just, you know, he's right over there. But it's not who I am. I have probably less clients in this area code than I, than I do, like than I have otherwise. And everything we do is virtual. Everything we do is, you know, is, is, is, has nothing to do with us breathing the same air. I have a couple of clients that I've seen, but I'll be honest with you. I have a client I just took on who, you know, paid me with a hard check. And I

regret I will never take a hard check ever again, just the process of dealing with the check and dealing with the company. And I will never do that ever again. I will never take another hard check. I'll never take cash ever. That's just we're just not that agency. And I think that's a tough thing sometimes is marrying what sounds or looks like a good idea versus who you actually are. And there can be some disconnects and bad decisions made there if you don't have the vision that you're talking about,

if you're not kind of playing to a point. And David Carruthers beats me up about this all the time because he can be so focused and he's so good at, you know, and I can be very scatterbrained. Well, me too. I mean, you see that blackboard back there? Yeah, I was going to say, that's a pretty impressive blackboard you have behind you.

Well, yeah, but the notes are written in every direction possible. That's like I never went to kindergarten or something. I just, I don't know. I have a hard time keeping things in a normal structure. Like it's either in a spreadsheet or it looks like that. There is zero in between. Yeah. So, okay.

So you were feeling discomfort discomfort you were a grinder you were starting to feel the fact that your your what was going on at work wasn't really feeding your soul those are my words um i don't want you to sound overly ethereal if you don't want to be um but then you you had you created this vision um you started to really think about what you wanted the agency to be in five years. Remove the how, which I love that. I get caught up in the how. I'm going to put some thought time into that idea because I think that's a hang-up for me. And I don't know that I've ever thought about it that way.

And then you make this move. So let's get to the rub here. So then you make this move. So let's get to the, let's get to the rub here. Let's get to the, so then you make this, this kind of power move. Let, let talk us through this. Yeah. So, um, we, I saw an opportunity to, to make it happen. And I just, I knew, I knew that was the opportunity. So I knew, I also knew that opportunity was going to involve a serious amount of risk. And it would be painful. You know, my family was going to need to be on board with it. It was going to hurt financially for probably a period of years.

But it was the right move. So we, man, during that period of 2018 through like early 2019, I moved my family three times. We lived in three different homes. Um, it was, I'm big into real estate investment. That's my other passion. So it's not like we were in the streets or something like that. Things were fine, but what was really paying the bills all of a sudden was completely put at risk. And I wasn't sure whether or not we were going to come through the other side of it. And I needed to make sure that if we didn't, you know, my family was in a position where we'd be okay. So we sold our home. And we renovated a duplex that renovation went off the rails. So we were living by parents that got a little bit old with, you know, young kids in the same household, the parents or anything. So we got a short term apartment, then finally ended up moving into another rental home, which is where,

you know, where we're still living. So, you know, there was, there was a, it was, it was a period of very rapid change. I remember telling my wife during that period that I feel like every day I wake up and I might make three potentially life-changing decisions. And it was really like that because I didn't know what was going, I didn't know what the result of this whole process was going to be. I knew that by the end of the year, something would have happened. For better or for worse, something was happening, like the wheels were in motion. empowering because every day I had to wake up and just be ready to like make big decisions all the time. And once I got comfortable in that space, I realized, wow, like, all right, I can take this thing somewhere. So finally we, we, we, we came through it. We got the deal we needed. Um, uh, you know, during this period where I wasn't really sure what was going to happen,

I'm like, I'm signing leases to build out office space for a business I don't even know if I'm going to have. I'm recruiting people, selling them on this vision of something that isn't really there yet. And we got it. So January of 2019, my second worst nightmare came true and we made all this, all this happened. And literally I had not hired a single person into the new, the new business. So signed this expensive, relatively expensive lease, built this brand new, beautiful, awesome office. Hindsight, maybe not a great decision. And walk in the doors January 1st. I had hired one person,

but she was not going to start until like in springtime. And we had this business to run, you know, clients needed ID cards, needed to add and remove vehicles and drivers and all the other stuff. And it was, you know, myself and two other amazing people that I am forever grateful for

that came with me on that journey. And there we were. Did you basically buy out your book? What did you do as much as you're willing to talk about it? Like what, what happened, you know, is, is, you know, and I don't, and you don't have to get into the specifics, but just like, did you start your whole new agency? Did you buy your book out? Did you buy another agency? Like how did this, like you made this big move. What kind of, I guess, was the move as much as you can talk about it? So essentially the agency split and we retained the name.

That was kind of like as basic as I could describe what happened. So we were Camargo Insurance. We are Camargo Insurance. We kept our book of business and the other, you know, various owners and contractors and things went their own way. Gotcha. That makes sense. That makes sense. So that's, that's, that's a big move. So you become the sole owner of the, of the, this new entity that retained the name, but is way different than what it was before. Yeah. Yeah. So then it was like, all right, well, there's no excuses now. We can build whatever we want. Like there is nobody else that I can turn to and say like, well, I can't do it because of this or that.

It's all, it's all, all this guy. Right. Yeah. So then we're, you know, we're managing this book and we don't have a lot of people. So we're like, okay, we, we, I, we need service centers. Like without service centers, we just, we cannot survive. And if we're going to stay focused on this vision of what we know it can be, I need to find a way to actually work on the business. And that, you know, that, that involved putting some processes in place to make sure that I was not talking to everybody that called in that wanted to talk to me. And then that was like, that was painful, honestly. Like I enjoy talking to my customers. I'm not gonna say I enjoy every single conversation. Sometimes, you know, those are kind of painful. But the book grew because I liked what I was doing. And now it's like, all right, I can't, I can't talk to Joe and Jim and Sue, because I just don't have, I do not

have the luxury of the time to talk to them because this is a very urgent situation. And what we need to do to make this thing work is start building a team right now. And we need to make that team effective right now. So it started with screening calls that are coming in and having somebody manage my email inbox so that people were getting taken care of, but I didn't have to see all that stuff. And then everything went to my voicemail and then somebody else looked at it and then distributed those voicemails accordingly. So it was like, all right, I'm not like that, that created a lot of time. Not to say I wasn't getting dragged back into all kinds of stuff. I absolutely was. And then I really got down to focusing on bringing, building a sales team. Uh, and our focus was, okay, I'm going to bring in awesome killer freaking B2B salespeople from other

industries because it's just not in the cards. I can't afford to bring on somebody, you know, experienced insurance producer. Like, like first of all how does that very rarely happens that somebody just switches shops like because um and if they do it's like why uh there's always hair on that dog always there's no any way you slice it there's hair on that dog so i wanted to bring and really you, what I wanted to do was show people the power of this industry and help them succeed in it. So we hired some really awesome people that, uh, that were young B2B salespeople in other industries. Uh, they were literally, you know, door knockers, like just crushed the door knocking, you know, old school, like that,

that was the way that the businesses they work for were set up and they just crush it, man. So I taught them the insurance side of things and they went out and sold and my whole idea up front, I'm not an automation ninja. Not really. I love the idea of technology. I am terrible at technology. Like I love thinking about what it can do, but you put me in the system and say like, do almost anything. I am like the biggest freaking Luddite that you've ever met. But I realized that's okay. As long as I have somebody else on my team that can help me with that piece of it and I can provide direction on where I want this thing to go. So out of the gate, like we didn't have that, you know, we were on Hawksoft, like does fine managing your policies, but it's not going to, you know, create any amazing, it's not really a CRM, you know, it's not going to do anything from an automation standpoint. It's really going to help us. I don't have a marketing background. I knew we had, I knew that marketing needed to be a core part of what we do moving forward,

but that's not going to just become a thing overnight. So I said, all right, well, I'm going to build a team of door knockers. And that's what we did. And then once I got a team of door knockers, as they're bringing in revenue and building experience, then we can say, okay, well, let's focus on the next level, which is how do we make Camargo really very similar to what you talk about with rogue risk? I call it empowering. Like how do I empower my people through technology? I just love that idea of empowerment and all of its senses. But, you know, we talk about what, where our industry is now, man, there is, there is a lot of potential in empowering people through technology. You call it the human optimized agency. So once we had that foundation,

you know, then it was like, all right, well, let's get serious about what technology we're using and how we can truly build an integrated solution that's going to empower people to do this thing in a better way. Yeah. How, what was your process like for getting the salespeople up and running? How long did it take you? How did you do that? Well, so it started with the right people, really. With the right people on board that have experience in B2B sales and like it and just happen to be in an industry that's not as good as insurance, which by the way is like almost all of them. do what you do. You already know how to do what you do to get out and build a relationship and get in front of somebody like going from cold to closed. Like we're, we're here, we're sitting at

this table because you know how to do that. So go do that thing. When you bring in the opportunity, I will help you structure the underwriting, structure the submission. Uh, and then we hired experienced, um, ultimately our account manager, our first account manager came from the carrier side from claims. Ali Vaughn, she's amazing. She's now our operations and innovation manager. But she had a claims background with Liberty. So I was kind of, she had the insurance background, but not any agency baggage, which honestly was a benefit. So my producers would bring it in. I would kind of

get them together and say, okay, this is how you submit something. Like these are the carrier sites or like these are the underwriters you got to talk to. Here's what an accord form looks like. You know, here's how you, here's how you complete it and got them working together. Then shortly thereafter that we brought in an experienced account manager, um, from, from another agency that had that experience. And that was really the idea was bring in the, the sales, the inexperienced salespeople and partner them with somebody with experience on the, uh, on the insurance side. And that's, yeah, I think, you know, I think I agree with what you said about, you know, in industry talent is very difficult.

Because I think, you know, it's so hard. And I know there's a lot of a lot of good producers that work for agencies that they don't love. Doesn't mean they're in bad situations. They don't love it there. They you know, the grass is always greener um i oddly get a lot of calls from producers from around the country who want to work for rogue um which is weird because this thing is a shit show right now i mean look we're on a i have a vision and we're on a path but i understand man right but but to it would i would be i would be very very intellectually dishonest if I were to tell you that this is like a smooth sailing ship. You know, it's just not. You know, we're still piecing things together.

I still got to do a lot of stuff. So to my point is when you bring people in from outside the industry, they don't often come with the baggage or the expectations that an in industry producing person comes from. Also, like you said, they're just less expensive and you can help them get to the point where they are valuable. You know, they do have a ton of experience, but I think as a, you know, when I think about this and I think about it a lot, because I am not the world's best producer. I, you know, to me, I envy when you're like, I grind and sell and call and bring the business in. I'm a marketer. I'm really a marketer

and I feel like I have some decent technology and leadership skills, but I am a marketing person. I am not a salesperson. I'm just not. I can sell, you know what I mean? I can sell, but I am not that the other side of that coin where you just show up and you're like, ah, I'm going to sell a bunch of stuff and get all jacked up and smash beer cans off my head. Like I am not that guy. And, um, I'll do the beer can smashing, but I'm, I, I, like the natural salesman that, that really is not me either. It was, that's a difficult thing.

It was like son of boss syndrome. Who's really freaking stubborn. So I was there long enough that I just kind of figured out what I was supposed to do. Yeah. But I mean, the people that are on our team now, I mean, they're freaking light years ahead of me from a, from a natural talent. I know. So I've, I've thought about this a lot because I want, I can't wait to,

I want like the producer I have down in Staten Island. I love having her because she is, she's former life insurance. She's, or, you know, she still does some life in her, in her own, for her own life. She has her own life insurance agency that she runs it, but PCs. And I feel like my job is just to feed her opportunities. I want to get her the carriers, the opportunities, and I want to make sure the workflow is behind her so she can just call and sell and call and sell. And that is what I'm good at. I am not, I do not get motivated, nor do I feel any energy from calling and selling and calling and selling. I just, it's an odd thing. I just don't. It's weird,

right? I mean, it's just- Well, everybody's wired differently, you know? And it's like, that was really one of the, talk about that theme of empowerment. Again, one of the empowering things about going through this process of changing the organization and saying, okay, I'm going to lead and run an organization. I'm not going to be the organization, was that I was able to recognize my own deficiencies in hot, which of which there are very many and then hire people, awesome people that can do all those things way better than I can. And now all of a sudden we have power. So I can kind of, I can stay in my lane. Now I gotta be the one that's, you know,

captaining the ship. Otherwise it's gonna, you know, it's gonna go in any and all directions and that's not good, but I don't need to be the person that's connecting technology because I'm going to do that really terribly. I don't need to be the person that's creating relationships from nothing because that's not good. Now you put it in front of me, uh, you know, I'll, I'll crush it. Um, but yeah, that's, I mean, that's an exciting thing, man. Cause once you, like, once you turn that corner and I can tell just from listening to your podcast, like you're, you know, you're, you're heading that direction, man, you're going to, that it's going to be fun. Cause you're going to be able to focus on what you like. And that was what I found. Man, when I finally got to the

point that I could focus on what I liked, then it became really, really fun. And I was surrounded by good people that, that were focusing on what they loved. And then you've got this synergy of awesomeness. Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think, you know, when I, from talking to so many agency owners, and again, this isn't an easy thing regardless, but it feels to me like many of the agency owners that really hit their stride,

that really like wake up every day and feel really good about their agency have taken that step to remove themselves from the stuff they don't like doing. And some of them still love to sell, which is great, right? They've put themselves in a position where they still sell a lot. They like that.

That's, again, that's what you choose to do. Yeah, what you choose to do isn't the point. The point is they've removed everything that they don't like to do or they don't have a solid skill set in from their day-to-day so that they can focus on the things that they are good at. And, you know, that to me feels like a defining step in an agency's evolution when you're able to do that. Absolutely. So this board here,

it kind of ebbs and flows on what I'm tracking on it, but having something really big and in my face helps me stay focused on it. Otherwise it's, you know, it's gone in a flash. So I had the old quadrants, Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 of, what is it? Important but not urgent. Whatever. Urgent but not important, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, the idea is that most of us end up working on the urgent and important quadrant because it's urgent and important. You got to get it done and it's important. And just kind of having that up in my face and knowing that, okay, well, my objective is to be running this thing, not being in it. That's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take time to get there. But if I'm tracking what I'm doing on that board, every time I find myself operating in that important and urgent category, it's like, well, why am I there? Why am I doing this thing? Am I doing this because I just want to, am I doing it because there, I had some failure of process

and that's why I ended up on my plate. Um, and that, that really helped me kind of keep, keep things moving towards that, uh, not urgent, but important quadrant, which I think. Yeah. I think, um, I think what you're doing, man is awesome. I think that, I think the way you're approaching the agency is, is just another tremendous example of crafting this thing to be what fits your life and what you want it to be. And, and, and that's one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on and tell your story and talk a little bit, because I think, I think so. I think it's very easy to get caught up in what everyone else is doing, right? Like I remember, you know, IOA this year, um, and, uh, San Diego, which was awesome. Like you talked to

so many people and it's, you know, and they're, they're telling you, I do this and I do this. And it's so hard not to leave an event like that and be like, Oh, I should be doing this thing over here and I should be doing this, man. I should be going after this thing. And, uh, and even Crothers talks about that a little bit. I was just listening to his podcast. That's why he's in my brain. But, um, uh, about him coming out of one of the IOAs and now he's in personal lines and this and stuff. I think it's very easy to get caught up in what you feel like you should be doing. And when I think what's awesome about your story and Camargo is you are, you made the very tough, very risky decision to build the agency to what you wanted it to be. And, and, and I'm sure, you know, nothing's ever perfect and nothing's

ever exactly, but you are, you're on that path and you're, you're, you're taking the steps forward to get there. And, um, I think more people need to hear that we can build these things. However we want, you want to forever be a one person show. God bless you. You want to have a hundred people. God bless you. You want to be the local agency. Amazing. You want to be fully digital, you know, clients all over the country, whatever, all of it is possible. But I think it's what you, what do you want? What, what do you actually want to be? Who do you want to work with? And I love, and I, and this is, I think the core idea that I hope people take away is if we remove the how, and we really think about what we want, then we, the how kind of gets,

it kind of solves itself to a certain extent yeah well you you have focusing on the vision i think is the number one most important thing it when trying to do something big whatever big means for whoever is trying to do it is well like focus on where it's going and then back into the how. It's a reversal of thinking through it. Well, dude, I appreciate you. I want to be respectful of your time. And where can people get at? You said LinkedIn, the good place to connect if people want to just connect with you and

see what you're doing. Absolutely. Yep. Love the LinkedIn. Jay Muller, camargoins insurance.com is our site uh but yeah ping me on linkedin uh love to connect and and to your point learn what everybody is doing in this industry because there are a million ways to do it and uh we can all learn from each other and and that's we're at a really cool point in time where we're sharing and empowering each other yeah it's awesome all. Hey, appreciate you coming on and be good.

Yep. You too, man. Thank you. I'll take it Yeah, me Yeah, me I'll take it Yeah, me Yeah, me Yeah, me Yeah, me Johnny, that's really hot You go fuck yourself with your fat fucking ass Yeah, me

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