The Ryan Hanley Show - RHS 142 - Zach Mefferd on Becoming a Technologist and the Future of Zip Bonds

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comIn this episode of The Ryan Hanley Show, Zach Mefferd, co-founder of Coverage Direct and Zip Bonds, joins the podcast for a spirited discussion on what it means to transition from independent insurance agent to InsurTech technologist.Zach is an all-time thinker in the independent insurance industry, and it is a true pleasure to have him on the show.Episode Highlights: Zach explains how hard it is to build technology and his unique perspective on building the technology for Zip Bonds . (3:58) Zach shares how he also gets frustrated with technological solutions. (7:24) Zach elaborates on the program they call Zip Score, which focuses on small contractors. (10:38) Zach explains that the agencies that have the most success with their product, allow them to be an extension of their business. (15:40) Zach shares that they intentionally hire people with underwriting experience or those with an underwriter mindset. (20:15)  Zach talks about the building of the commercial side of the business as well as focusing on the overlooked areas in surety as their set of new features. (24:47) Zach explains that even if customers don't know that they need it they will eventually know somebody who will need surety. (28:36) Zach explains that carriers, larger agencies, and people that have influence in this space are starting to understand the reality of API connections. (32:16) Key Quotes: "People are as complicated as technology. You just have to kind of understand how to see that, hey, it's a broken thing, and do that in a systematic way." - Zach Mefferd "What I really see us able to do, and I'm really glad that it's kind of morphed into this, is we want to be the division of surety for your agency. We're never going to compete, obviously, with P&C." - Zach Mefferd "I say all the time, you don't get it if you don't ask for it. All you gotta do is ask. They don't know that you have it and if you haven't asked for the opportunity, you're going to miss it. Someone else is going to take it." - Zach Mefferd Resources Mentioned: Zach Mefferd LinkedIn Zip Bonds Reach out to Ryan Hanley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you with another one of my favorite people in the entire industry. Someone who thinks similar but different to the way that I think myself. And that doesn't mean right or wrong, it just means we talk fast, we think fast, we view the industry from a very similar set of filters, and I just couldn't be happier to share, once again, the expertise of Zach Mefford with you guys. Zach is the co-founder of Coverage Direct and co-founder of Zip Bonds with Ryan Suave, and the work that Zach and Ryan have been doing both with

Coverage Direct and with ZipBonds is just tremendous. ZipBonds is a tool that we use, as you'll hear in the episode. We talk about how we use it, what the use cases for Zip are, where we think they're having success, and why you might want to consider ZipBonds for your surety needs and what those use cases are. I think they're doing tremendous things over at Zip, and we couldn't be happier to learn more about them as well as just break down the industry, break down all kinds of interesting things that are happening, what it means to be a technologist, being an independent agent, and then moving into becoming a technologist, what that move is like, you're going to love this episode. Before we get to Zach, I just want to talk about today's sponsor, and that is Podium.

Guys, if you're not using some sort of chat or texting services to communicate with your clients, you are missing the boat. Now, when we use Podium, we're getting almost a 100% connection rate because when someone chats into Podium via your website, when you respond, it hits their phone as a text message. And in that way, you're getting right in their most response-worthy medium, which is text. So love Podium. They have a ton of tools. You can take payments to them. You can do all kinds of interesting things. But Podium is definitely a tool you want to consider. Go to podium.com. Go to podium.com. Check out Podium today. All right, let's get to Zach. Boom. Dude, pumped to have you back on the show. What's going on, man?

Hey, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah, excited to. the show what's going on man hey man thanks for having me yeah excited to uh lots been going on but uh yeah a lot since we last talked right since uh since i got to do my first podcast with v ryan hanley you still have that very intimidating now most everyone won't be able to see this but he's got this very intimidating lion sign that he keeps right behind him just to emasculate whoever's on a zoom call with him. Like, look at this bad-ass lion behind me. I mean, I don't think of it in those terms. I, uh, the truth is my business partner, Ryan had bought a really cool three-piece art thing to cover up a wall and I'm not very good at decorating. And so he goes, Hey, I have a coupon. You want to check it out? I went through all this stuff. That was the coolest thing that I've found. So that's, that's what I know. It's bad-ass. I love it. I just, every, I have a coupon. If you want to check it out. I went through all this stuff. That was the coolest thing that I found. So that's what I did.

No, it's badass. I love it. I just, every time I see it, I'm like, shit, he's power playing me right now. No, I promise you that's not. I'm very intentional about a lot of things, but that is definitely not intentional. Just thought it was cool. So what's going on, man? I mean, like you said, lots happening.

You know, we see zip bonds more and more places. Obviously, you and Ryan are two of the more respected agency owners in the country and hasn't done that, it's really, really hard. It's really hard. It just, it just is. I mean, I think, you know, Ryan and I have a unique perspective being agency, you know, owners who sat in the seats of the service accounts, you know, CSR producer, you know, both personal lines, commercial, we've done all of that. And so, you know, when you producer, you know, both personal lines, commercial, we've done all of that. And so, you know, when you go out and try to fix a problem that you had personally, and you see what it can be and what you want it to be, it's just really hard to translate that from here's the problem, here's the solution, how do we make technology, you know, fix that. And so I've told people all the time, I think one of the biggest advantages agencies, owners, producers, or people who have worked in the space have over those that come from the technology side is that we're always trying to fix the problem from the insurance side, like the core.

Peel the onion, get all the way to the core of what it is. We're just using technology on the way out to get to that solution, as opposed to taking technology and forcing it in and upon the space where they don't quite understand some of the things that, you know, these people go through every single day. So with Zip, you know, there's a lot of things I still see on a platform right now that I want to change and things that I would like to see as if I were a producer, things that I would want done differently. And the reality is that that takes time and resources. And, you know, sometimes you pick the wrong vendors to work with or you pick the wrong program to use. And then you figure out 10 steps down the road that, oops, that was a mistake.

So now you got to go and basically tear it all down and rebuild it, which is part of what we're doing right now. And I don't know. I'm still just I'm thankful for the problems we have because there's still problems, they're they're good problems to have yeah i i think i think i like the analogy or metaphor or whatever that was that you described with the you know working your way out versus working your way in i think you see that a lot with like what glovebox is doing and and what some of the other companies like another great example is tarmica right like tarmica we we've seen tarmica built from the outside in, and it is not as nice, effective, or as accurate as Tarmaca, which is, was built by, you know, an agent, you know, Raghav, uh, from the inside out. And, um, you know, that, that to me is, is definitely an advantage. And, um, I think that's a really cool way of articulating it. I think one of the, I'm interested in your take because building technology versus building, say an agency,

right. Which is much more driven. You have many more people problems, at least from my perspective, having worked in a technology company and build the technology. But obviously I worked in a couple, it seemed like, you know, when you have an issue in your agency, you can kind of mask it with hard work and a smile, right? Like something breaks. You can be like, you can call a person and be like, look, you know, everything's fine. You know, mask it up. And it's not really as visible. When you're building technology, it seems like every little freckle or wart or whatever is boom, like right on display.

And everyone looks at it like, look, look, your thing's not done yet. And you're like, yeah, no, duh. I know. So how do you, as a founder of both, you know, having found an agency and founding technology and constantly building technology for both, how do you like mentally or emotionally deal? Like, how do you work through that and not get frustrated or, or, or maybe you just don't at all? Well, I do get frustrated. So that's, uh, you know, I probably make a horrible poker player for the fact that I wear my emotions on my sleeve all the time. Like you can always tell it, you know, my, my business partner, Ryan's very much more even keel. You can, when he's happy,

when he's, you know, not happy, it's pretty much the same look, you know, most of the time, there's a little bit of fluctuation, but for me, I mean, I'm either way up here, way down there, everywhere in between. And I'm just the way that I that i'm wired and i don't i don't try to apologize for that it's just it's just the difference so i think we both would be classified as expressive expressives that's true i remember when we i don't know if we brought this up the first time the first time we met three down des moines and you're here for that uh that seminar and you said i don't think i've ever met anybody that's like at the level of energy and like talking where i'm at yeah we were just like it was like 10,000 miles an hour. It was

like pong, but if you sped it up to like a million. Yeah. It was an Olympic version of ping pong. That's what it was. It was back and forth, back and forth. And that was a lot of fun for me. So, you know, going back to that, like I get frustrated, but I will say that there's, they're both unique in the types of problems that you have. And you're right that it's, you know, with an agency, when you have those issues, it's sometimes maybe easier to do that with hard work and a smile. But I also think it's easier if you grew up in or have been around the insurance space long enough, you know, that you, well, I guess it goes for anything. If you've been around it enough, you've seen that problem probably more than once, then

at least have some sort of idea of how to tackle it. When you're an insurance guy first trying to understand technology and move forward in it, sometimes it's difficult because you can see the problem, but you don't necessarily know the solution. And without becoming a completely, you know, have a completely different set of skills, it's hard to trust or know like that's the solution for it. So what I would say is people are as complicated as technology. You just have to kind of understand how to see that, Hey, it's broken thing and do that in a way where you, you, you have that,

it's not systematic, but there's a way to create a culture where that coaching, those, you know, conversations, those things are happening enough that you can see that like you do on the technology side, like, Hey, that thing is broken. I think that's one thing that we've done really, really well. We, we have a really good culture that's been developed, you know, not in our own doing. It's just borrowed ideas from a lot of different experiences that Ryan and I've had, um, and then hiring really smart, capable people to implement and improve upon those. Yeah. I, I think about, um, I think about

you guys because you started, uh, property casualty and, and I know surety is like the redheaded stepchild, but you know, you decided to make that move and launch zip bonds. And now, you know, it's not just an idea. You know, last time we talked, you were literally just launching the platform. You guys can go back. I have no idea what number it is, but I'm sure if you Google Hanley show and Zach Meffrey, you'll come up. But now you're operating, right? So kind of give us a catch up on where you are, what's happening, anything that's of interest to people. And then I got a whole bunch of questions I want to pepper you with because I'm super interested in what you guys are doing. So kind of just give us that kind of ramp up to get us up to speed here.

Yep. So like we've said all along, we run out of problems that we've had. And once we developed our technology on the coverage direct side to get to where we felt like it was going in a good direction, it wasn't that we were necessarily bored, but we had this thing of surety that it always had bothered us. And we were talking to a carrier, they were explaining to us that they basically had a user experience issue and they didn't know exactly what that was. And so when we developed this, it was, okay, let's tackle the problems we had first, and then we'll get to the rest of this stuff. So for us, it was really small contract. That was a lot of what we dealt with.

We had contractors that had never been bonded before. We had contractors we were prospecting that didn't know what a surety bond was or, you know, bid bond, performance bond, things like that. And so we really tackled this mostly focusing on small contract to begin with, developed a, you know, a program with what we call our zip score that helps pre-qualify accounts up to 750,000 without a social security number. It's a way to quickly just say, hey, look, are you able to be bonded? You know, we're not going to go ahead and give you a bid bond based off of just that. We want to still see the contract, but it really alleviates that initial objection of asking for a social or, you know, trying to gather personal financials or, you know, the things that make things complicated, things that we were frustrated with.

So we focused on that along the way, you know, like it is with anything that you get into that, you know, is new. We're exposed to a lot of different other problems that we didn't necessarily have, but other agents were having. So we tackled those along the way. You know, is new. We're exposed to a lot of different other problems that we didn't necessarily have, but other agents were having. So we tackle those along the way. You know, we've been focusing a lot on, you know, issues with probate bonds and our commercial platform isn't quite where I'd like it to be right now. But the good news is at least we know going forward what our plan is and we're in the process of actively building that out. And hopefully here, I'd like to say, you know, at the end of quarter two, quarter three, we're going to have a completely different system, but at least this year, that'll be a lot more of the, we coined it,

you know, select pay print process, where you can literally go in for those zero underwriting, select the bond you need, pay for it right away, print it off as a PDF. You're good to go. Yeah. I think it's phenomenal. And I want to give you guys just the use case that I had, we had at Rogue just recently. I had a developer in Florida who got referred to us. And we helped them with a couple, you know, PC thing, PNC things that they needed done. And then they asked about bonding. And immediately, the way they phrased the question, I knew that I was outside of my level of expertise in surety. So, you know, I, well, this is probably not the way you want everyone to go about it, but I had text Zach. And then Zach hooked me up with Zach Matters at Zip Bonds.

And I just made the intro. So I literally just did an email introduction. I said, the guy's name was Ricardo. I said, Ricardo, this is my guy. He's going to get you squared, everything you need. And truthfully, they BCC me right out of the conversation. And, you know, I think it was a week or two later, you know, whatever had to get done, got done. I got an email saying just from Zach saying, Hey man, this one's all squared. And then a month later after that, I got a commission check in the mail. And, you know, to me that, that, you know, I think some agencies get a little squirrely and I don't want to say wrongly. So when they're kind of passing it off, but what I, what I liked

and the reason I felt so confident was one, I know the way that you and Ryan handle your business. And I knew that anyone working for you would be an extension of that. And two, me being involved in that conversation would have only slowed things down and made our agency look less professional because I am not a surety expert, right? Like, you know, a simple municipal bond, like whatever, but like, you know, this guy had, had a few, he was doing something with developing or whatever he was doing. And, um, it just, I think that the day has come when we as professionals have to be good at what we're good at in the insurance industry, whatever that may be, it may be a specific niche. it may be a specific line of business or geographic region,

and then be comfortable allowing others to come into the process. Because I don't think, I think we've reached a day from the consumer experience, and this is where I'm really interested in your take. I think we've reached a point with most consumers, even middle market commercial consumers or business owners, where they understand that it might take a couple professionals to get a full package of coverages done. I don't think everything has to run specifically through your brand and the agency principal's email, or like that, that business owner is going to be like, ah, these guys are a joke. This dude loved it. He actually sent me a note on the side and say, Hey, they were great. Thanks,

man. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's all, that's the whole thing. You know, that's the whole, that's what you're trying to do. What's up guys. Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. And in exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on spotify or apple itunes etc this helps the show grow it helps me bring more guests in we have a tremendous lineup of people coming in uh men and women who've done incredible things sharing their stories

around peak performance leadership growth sales the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show, subscribe if you're not subscribed. And I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy it listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode. So I'm really glad you put

it that way. I know you got to your question yet, but I just want to say like the agencies that we have the most success with realize that, recognize it and allow us to basically become a, you know, extension of their business. And so I think back when I was a commercial producer, I was getting these larger and larger accounts in the contractor space. And then they would, you know, these contractors would say, Hey, do you have a bond program? Do you have a bond department? Do you have somebody that can handle that for us? Cause the company we're with now does that. Right. And so what I really see us able to do, and I'm really glad that it's kind of morphed into this, is we want to be the division of surety for your agency. We're never going to compete, obviously, on a PNC. And when I say

that, obviously, I guess I should say, no, you're aware of it, but maybe nobody else is. We don't even own our book of business on the other side anymore. I don't commercially produce anything, and neither does anybody specifically for our team, for, for, for our team, we, we only have a platform now for credit unions on the insurance side. So the idea behind us even going direct to consumer was intentionally set up so we could provide value back with reciprocating those commercial leads to those agents that were partnering with us. That was the whole intent of why we did the direct consumer side of it because we want to have a reciprocal relationship. Well, so those agencies that say, hey, look, like you did, you know,

just handing it off that way and letting us, you know, act as if it's your division, right? You know, we even say when we're on those calls, like, hey, you know, we're reaching out, we're Zip-Ons, we partner with Road Risk on their surety and we help them, you know, get this stuff done in a quicker manner. the experience is what really matters i don't really think anybody gives a shit whether or not you're you know this company that company the other and the analogy i've used in the back or the in the past has been if you are you know take an attorney for example if

you're trying to build a firm do you want to handle every single type of law can you could you actually be a subject matter expert in every single type of law? Can you, could you actually be a subject matter expert in every single type of law as you, as you build that out? You know, I've told agencies that I know are going to grow until a point where they have their own bond division. Great. Use us as your training wheels until you get to that point and bring somebody on and get those contracts and have enough volume to do that. We're happy to be a part of that path with you. And then, you know, if we just take a backseat and become the broker for the hard stuff that you can't do internally, that's totally fine. You know, we, we want to see the agents be successful. That's that's we were them. Right. So we want that. So I've,

I quote this stat quite a bit on the show, 32% of all the inbound leads. The reason that that, that business owner is reaching out is because their current insurance provider, that doesn't mean independent agency, that could mean whoever, their current insurance provider either isn't giving them good information or isn't getting back to them, right? Basically, their current insurance provider is subpar.

And I think what consumers are thirsty for is someone who's gonna listen to them and has expertise in the area that they're looking for. And literally the name on the box means nothing to them. Like you could just be, you know, there could be a day when, you know, you're, you know, an agency is essentially just facilitating relationships to various subject matter experts and never actually placing any of the business themselves. They're just facilitating the best subject matter experts, right? Someone comes in, what do you need? Zip bonds. Somebody needs, what do you need? You know, Chris Green flood insurance, you know, whatever. Like they're just, they're literally just a facilitator because, you know, it is, and I can tell you, as soon as you scale out beyond a certain geographic region, call it a state or two, or you scale outside a certain vertical, maybe you could be good

at one or two verticals. You scale way out beyond that. 95% of the agencies out there just lose all the subject matter expertise at that point. It's not their fault. It's just impossible to have all that info. So that to me makes what you're doing and the way you're doing it such a no-brainer because, you know, it, you basically, I didn't have to think about it. I literally went email connection.

Okay, great. And, and, and Zach, Zach matters. Not, not, uh, not this, he, he, uh, I was calling matters. He goes, I don't know why we did that to Zach. And that's right. So I'm old Zach. He's new Zach. I don't know. That wasn't new Zach. New Zach just goes, Hey Ryan, you know, thanks man. We got it. I'm going to BCC you. And I was like, perfect.

This is, I couldn't have handled it better. And you know, that to me is a really solid model, especially when you know, behind it is the, you know, trust and respect that I think you and Ryan have earned in any business that you guys are a part of is then going to have by extension. Well, thank you again for saying that. Again, it's the reason why we were so intentional about hiring people who have underwriting experience, because when you look at it from, I mean, you know, this just as well as anybody on the commercial side, you're selling both sides. You're selling to the actual person you mean, you know this just as well as anybody on the commercial side, you're selling both sides.

You're selling to the actual person you're providing the policy to, as well as the underwriter that you're trying to get to be on a certain risk. Well, when you have somebody that's coming at it with an underwriter mindset, whether you know enough to be able to provide it or not, I still don't think you're going to be able to provide as good of a submission because it's done by somebody who knows what the other side is looking for. It's continuing to have those relationships and conversations, building that trust. And at the end of the day, we just preach about the user experience. Like, what do we have to do to make that agent that referred that to us look like a rock star? You know, the name Zips is intentional. I mean, it's about speed, right?

Because the names, by the way, I don't know if I told you this ever, just even off record. Fastbonds.com, that was the whole like we're going to go through. Not that.com was there, but Fastbonds was the first one. Trademark Issues. Then we had Bolt Bonds. We were so close to having that be the name that we actually had logos. I still like the logo that was on there. And then at the 11th hour, we ran into Trademark Issues, that one as well.

So then we went to Zip because the Zip one came up. And it actually does, I you know sell what we do it's all about speed creating as fast and you know immediate response to those and providing a solution right away and again the agencies that seem to be the ones that we had the most success with and i think they would tell you the same as soon as they got past that whole deal because there is a level of trust there i understand that and i've been in the shoes of the person that would be handing them off. So I can, I can speak to that directly. But I think that once they got out of the way and saw how that worked and how seamless that was, and then still got paid without doing any work. Again, it's,

we agree. It's a no brainer. Yeah. As far as the name goes, I think that, I think all of that worked out serendipitous. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. Cause you know, fast bond sounds like some sort of janky SEO like play. That's not real. Bold bonds would have been cool. But you know, there's also bold penguin, which is kind of a huge name in the space now that, you know, maybe there's some confusion there or whatever.

Bolt. B-O-l-t yes okay like lightning flat oh okay yeah no that's good because i don't really like that but zip bonds um zip is perfect because one it's a z so that z z words and z names are remembered more than other names because it's a Z sound and it's so much different. And the letter is so much different than any other letter in the alphabet. So it, um, very memorable. It's also single syllable and you've never heard it before. So from just like a branding standpoint, it, it captures all the mental triggers that would get people to remember it. Yeah. So that's cool. I don't know how intentional that was, but yeah, I'll take credit. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I, I probably, I like, I nerd out on names a lot because I really get into like the psychology behind them. And you know, when people ask me about rogue risk, I like the name is a hundred percent intentional. Like there was everything about it. I mean,

it took me, I didn't just like think of it. It didn't just pop into my head. I mean, I had to work to get there, but like single syllable alliteration, ours are very memorable. Our names are very memorable in general, certain letters we remember in certain letters we forget, basically you can Google that. And then the other piece was rogue is different, right? I didn't want to sound like whatever, just like zip. It sounds different. It's fast, you know? So like that kind of stuff, I think, I think that kind of stuff matters. Like especially when you're building a brand like you guys are in your technology company, like it really matters. If you, if you have a name that's easy to forget or,

and this is a thing a mistake that a lot of people make is they get a name that is SEO friendly, which today doesn't mean shit. Like that used to matter, you know, like having best fast bond commercial, you know, like that, that shit doesn't matter anymore. Like it's not the way SEO works anymore. So like there was a day when that was super important. That's just not important. So, um, no, that's really cool. Okay. So, um, the platform's up and running, you're doing a great job helping agents. What is like, and you don't have to give anything away that's like proprietary or whatever, but just when you're thinking about the, like where you want to go, like, what is the, what

is the next set of features or, or, or, or, or category of features that you want to start to deliver to the market that you think is going to continue to separate you guys? It's a great question. I would say first and foremost, what we need to do is finish out the build of our commercial side, because that's the part that we've, you know, we just picked the wrong avenue to go down to start. We just needed to redo some things. So that's priority number one. Priority two, then I'd say would be to focus on, there's these overlooked areas in surety where it just doesn't quite fit the immediate appetite of certain carriers, where we see an opportunity to create either, whether it be a program and, you know, expand upon the, you know, the MGA, MGU type of a setup, or just create a better process of allowing and providing the surety that's required. And so, you know, I don't want to, again, get into the specifics of those, but there's just ones that are just outliers that don't necessarily get a lot of attention. Yeah, they're, they're, they're decent size, you know, surety, there's a decent

premium in those, and, and not a lot of people understand them. And so we see that as an opportunity to create something where we can provide a better solution, you know, directly to consumers while then passing it in to the agency, those commercial leads, or the agencies, because not everyone's going to find a surety partner or surety bond by knowing to go to their insurance agent. I say that in my demos, the first thing I talk about to anybody that, you know that we present to, the reason why we did this is because, especially with the younger generations, people don't automatically make that connection, that insurance agent's degree. That's the reality. Sorry if that's something that people don't like to hear, but it's the truth. And so that's the

way we could pull it back in and provide those opportunities to the agents. But then also, again, to the agents and those that understand that having a division that takes care of something that they shouldn't be expected to be a subject matter expert in is the best way to operate. Outside of those two things right now, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourself, but there are, you know, we actively are building the API for the Zip Score to be embedded in certain applications. We have ways of connecting to larger, what we call larger at-bat opportunities. And again, once the API is connected it, we're, we're really, this API that we're going to,

we're building right now is really the only thing that limits us to be able to connect to all these. It's, then it's on their side if they don't want to. Yeah. We just brought on a CTOto to help us you know navigate that whole path and and um you know help us make the right decisions as as insurance guys who aren't tech guys i think that your point on agents assuming that their customers know they do surety is a really good one. We, um, we for about a six month period, uh, maybe not that long, maybe four months period, uh, dialed up, we made sure every single customer who did business with rogue risk, we told them,

we asked them about their surety needs and then said, Hey, if, you know, and if they were like, Oh, we don't have any right now, I was just saying, hey, if anything pops up, call us. Like, this is what we, we will do this for you. All you have to do is send us an email. It's super easy, blah, blah, blah. And surprisingly, the number of surety bonds that we wrote went up. And I think that using, you know, especially if you're using some sort of CRM where you can just create like a templated email.

I mean, that's all we did was we created a templated email. So like we would mention it in the sales process and then follow up a few days later with a templated email that just said, hey, just want to remind you, we're sure that surety is going to pop up at some place, whether it's a simple municipal bond or it's some big bid bond or performance bond,

like it doesn't matter. Just reach out to us. This is what we do. We're here for you. That just becomes a no brainer. And now you're on their mind. Now, you know, they're not going to go searching for a surety provider if they know you do it. They're just not going to do that. That's exactly right. And you already have that lead list right there. And it's something that so many agencies just don't use. You know, there's no reason why and people, I think, especially there's such a lack of

knowledge understanding difference between insurance and surety and like how those things all work they just assume that it's only contractors right that they're going to be using surety for and that's really not the case i mean there's so many different other um avenues that surety is applied and the way that i've always explained it is like you know even if they don't know that they need it they may eventually or maybe they don't need it need it. They will know somebody eventually who will need it. And just again, top of mind, you don't get what you don't ask for. You already have the people in your book. You already have the people you can market to. There's no reason why you can't throw together a quick email saying, Hey, by the way, do you know, we offer these things? Yeah. I mean, manufacturers, a lot of

municipalities now require a bond. If you're going to put a business in certain small towns. Contractors, consultants. Bars, technology companies. Yeah, bars. There's so many. I mean, how many people don't have a – how many people have a 401K? Yeah. I mean, something as simple as Fidelity bonds and ERISA, the opportunities are just sitting there and it's it's being missed yeah so often and i try to i

actually get off subject more often than not in the demos that i go through because i still like to do them myself and go through and talk to the agent specifically um and we'll start talking about prospecting here's what you should do here's how you do here's what i would you know here's what's worked for us and and i have i I have an abundance mentality. So I don't, I'll share literally everything that we've done even internally here, as well as I've seen worked in the agency to help them because I want everybody to win. There's plenty of opportunities still that we had in surety that everyone can win. Yeah. I mean, to me, and maybe I'm naive to this point, but to me, it feels like surety is hasn't even been touched.

To me, it feels like, you know, it feels like there is a tremendous opportunity, you know, and I tend to think through, you know, what marketing, right? Just how will it be to market this product? To me, the marketing that's been done has been so remedial by a few players that got in early, rightfully so, and have specialized. And there's some big charity providers out there for sure. But because of the monopolistic nature that they had, or I shouldn't say that, that's wrong. Because there weren't that much competition and they all were able to carve out enough of it to make money, it's not overly sophisticated. So if you can come in and start to carve out a little bit of a niche or just simply ask your freaking customers through a checklist process or whatever,

you are going to write more surety. And Carothers calls it mailbox money. And that's the way I think about it is it's just another check that comes in the mail and that's great. Your clients are happy, but you shouldn't have to put that much thought into it. And that to me is where ZipBonds comes in is why are you wasting brain cycles on this particular product when there's someone who can handle it for you? Yep. We love those opportunities to be able to help those people out. And, you know, it's worked so far. Again, the agencies have got the most success with it. It's exactly how we do it. And I say all the time, it's like, you don't get what you don't ask for. All you got to do is ask, right?

Like if they don't know that you have it and you're not asked for the opportunity, you're going to miss out and someone else is going to take it. Yeah, dude, I want to be respectful of your time. I know we have a hard stop, or at least I do it in just a minute here too. In general, closing thoughts, industry-wide, doesn't have to be bonds. What is maybe the most exciting thing that you see going on? It could be anything. It could be anything that's happening.

You've seen anything. You're just like, it's cool. What do you think? I think that carriers, larger agencies, and people that actually have influence in the space are starting to understand the reality of API connections and why they're needed in our space. And I think it's going to create a tremendous amount of opportunity for new entities, as well as competition to those large players that have controlled too much of our space for

too long. And I'm thrilled to have just this very small part of influence in that area and be able to be a part of that because I'm starting to see the snowball. Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like the creativity and vision that so many had five or six years ago, but just, it wasn't possible to execute because of the, some of the roadblocks. I feel like a lot of those roadblocks have come down and now you're seeing people actually be able to execute those visions. It is, it's, it's, you know,

I'd say that, that 2015, 2016, 2017 was a very, very exciting time for our industry. I feel like we're still just getting ramped up. It's awesome, man. I couldn't be happier for you. I couldn't be happier for Ryan and everything you guys have going on. And as always, you got an open invitation on the show, and I can't wait to have you back again, man. Appreciate you having us. Like always, you got an open invitation on the show and I can't wait to have you back again, man. Appreciate you having us like always.

It's a, it's a, it's a blast and I'm sure we'll be on again at some point when we have something worth sharing. Um, well, I'm sure that you guys always have something worth sharing. What, what, um, uh, where should people go? They're, they're listening to this. They're like, shit, I got to get on charity. You know, where, where should they go? Where's the spot?

So zip bonds., go there. There's an agent link at the top of the page you can go to to figure out how to get some information and get a demo. And the easiest way to keep up with me specifically, just like it is with you and everybody else that I enjoy talking to, is on Twitter. So at Zach Mefford, M-E-F-F-E-R-D, not O-R-D like everyone wants to spell it. Yep.

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