The Ryan Hanley Show - The 5-Minute Habit That Prevents 99% of Leadership Failure | Dr Michelle Johnston

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyYour leadership style is probably failing. You think you're a benevolent leader, a lighthouse in the storm, but your team sees a dictator. You're so focused on transactions that you've forgotten the one thing that actually drives results: connection.But what if the fix wasn't another 3-day retreat or a complicated management system? What if it was a series of simple, 5-minute habits?In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Michelle K. Johnston, a top executive coach for brands like JP Morgan Chase and the NFL, and the bestselling author of The Seismic Shift in You. Dr. Johnston breaks down the tactical shifts every leader must make to stop eroding trust and start building a team that would run through a wall for them.We don't talk about luxury problems for Fortune 500s. We get into the trenches for the mid-market operators, the grinders, the founders who feel like they're doing everything right but still aren't getting the results they want. Stop guessing. Stop the burnout. This is your new playbook.Connect with Dr Michelle JohnstonGet her new book, "The Seismic Shift in You": https://amzn.to/4qqWqioWebsite: https://michellekjohnston.com/This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The harder you grind, the worst leader you actually become. That's not a motivational quote. That's a warning. And today's guest, Dr. Michelle Johnston, says, most leaders don't fail from incompetence. They fail because they mistake discipline for disconnection. And once you hear how subtle this shift is, you won't ever be able to unsee it in your own business.

Lock in, friends, this is another episode of Finding Peak. What are you seeing in the market right now that was the impetus for your book, right? This, the seismic shift in you. Like, what did you see that you're like, I have to, I have to address this? Like, there needs to be this book about this topic. Like, what were you seeing? Yes, great question, Ryan. So I'm an executive coach.

And I was coaching all these leaders who were at the top of their game and thinking they were doing everything right and having all of the one of the one. on one meetings and all of the team meetings and all of the off-sites. And they were telling me that at the end of the day, they were burned out, drained. They were struggling, finding purpose, that there was something not working. And so my co-author, Marshall Goldsmith and I were at the Thinkers 50 Awards in London in 2023. And we're listening to all the top thinkers. The Thinkers 50 is called the Oscars of Management Thinking. Okay.

We're listening to the Amy Edmonsons, you know, at Harvard Psychological Safety and the Kierston Ferguson's of Heart and Humanity. We're listening to Dory Clark and Ruth Gautian, all these amazing speakers talking about the chaos like you identified around us. And how technology is making us think that we're connected and yet we're lonelier than we've ever been in the history of the planet. Right. We're more disconnected. We're more anxious. We're totally addicted to our technology, and it's only going to get worse. And so the big question on the table was, what in the world can leaders do with this chaos,

with this addiction to technology, and it's not making us feel good? And so my whole brand is the seismic shift, right? So my first book, The Seismic Shift and Leadership was, I believe the biggest seismic shift is towards connection. This book addresses this disconnection epidemic that we're in, and it's more geared towards humans of how I truly believe, Ryan, we need to shift from the what to the who, and that's going to make all the difference. We've got caught up in the progress, progress, progress, progress, progress, achievement, achievement, achievement, task, task. One of my colleagues, Rhett Power said it beautifully. He said, it's not lost in translation.

it's lost in transaction. We're just full of transactions and yet not full of me. Okay. I have so many questions here. So one, I want to, I'm going to ask this question, and I mean it with no disrespect to the people who go to things like Thinkers 50, right? But I would consider myself, for better or for worse, very much like in the shit.

I deal with people who are in the shit. You know, I am very, you know, I don't roll in the big academic circles. I tend to, you know, we talk a lot about on the show, you know, what I loosely call like a reality operating system. Like life seems to make more sense when we operate in reality, not the fantasy that we wish existed. And I find a lot of times when I read highfalutin academics, that have theories and stats, and I surveyed 738 CEOs, and they told me X.

And when I'm talking to the people who really do this stuff, it's like they seem like luxury concerns, right? This is kind of my question. So many of the people that listen to this show are not the Fortune 500s, they're the Fortune 5,000s and below. They're the mid-market operators, entrepreneurs, startup people, side hustles trying to get to an entrepreneurial endeavor. And I think oftentimes the feedback I get is like, man, that guest, she was incredible and the information was great. But like, I don't experience any of those problems, actually. Like, none of those, like those seem like luxury problems. How do we discern the luxury problems of this chaotic, I feel disconnected with like, I just got to pay my bills?

I gotta sell X widgets And chaos is just part of it Because it feels like marrying that is what you're solving And absolutely That's the hard part Yes and what I have realized Working in it as well In the trenches in it as well

Is if we just focus on results Results results results I don't have time for that bullshit I don't have time for connection What are you talking about? I have to get my shit done Excuse all the cursing You're fine

And yet what I've learned is you can't get there unless you spend time with your people, unless you build trust, unless you occasionally curse, unless you say, man, before we get into our agenda, man, Ryan, how are you really? Like, how is your weekend? What is Albany like right now? You've got to spend time, and it's not a whole lot of time. If you can just take about 10 minutes, you know, once a week with your team, really going deeper with connection, you will get those hardcore results, the financial performance that you need to stay alive and pay the bills. And what I'm realizing, too, is I almost, it's funny, Ryan, I guess once you're a hammer, all you see is a nail. I almost can't get away from connection. You'll love this.

So I took a sabbatical from Loyola to write this book because I thought it is what every human needs right now. We have to go from the what to the who while still accomplishing our goals. if we want more meaning, more satisfaction in our lives. And so I had all the research that said, you will achieve your financial performance much more if you focus on your people. I had all the engagement scores, all these metrics. So I put all that aside, finish the book, and I thought, ah, I'm going to pick up a book to read for leisure.

This is going to be great. And I promised my daughter, she's in college. And I promised her that I was going to live to 100. So I picked up this book living to 100. And I'm like, cool, I've got to figure out this equation. I made this promise, right? And it's the head of this longevity institute. And he goes around the world to the blue zone.

So I'm waiting for this, you know, the diet and the exercise. He's like, yeah, nope, nothing. It's social connection. I was like, Brian, what? I can't get away from it. I was expecting recipes, you know. And he's like, no, what I've realized in all this research is, is, health and longevity, the number one

determinant is connection. So your listeners who are in this thick of it trying to get through every day, all of the indicators are saying we as humans have to do a better job with connection in order to be healthier, live longer, and drive financial performance. How do you crack someone out of the minute?

Like, I got a lot of hard-headed guys that I know listen to the show because they DM me. They're like stubborn old school. Oftentimes they're yelling at me for talking about AI too much on the show and different stuff like that. But I know for a fact, like they care about their people, but they don't slow down enough to actually implement it. So how do they start to slow down? One of these stubborn, hardheaded sons of bitches are listening to this show and they're like, you know what? There's another, you know, another person coming on and telling me I need to do, you know, work with.

people and but how do I do it? Like how do I get out of my transactional leadership life and actually spend some real time with my people? Okay. So the first, the first shift, as I shared, is you got a shift from the what to the who. So I coach a CEO and he said, you know, Michelle, I finally have gotten it. I used to be, he's a former lawyer. He's like, I used to be so driven by what, what, what. And he said, and it just wasn't working. wasn't working for my people. I wasn't getting the performance I wanted out of them. And it wasn't working for me. And then I shift to the who. And then here's what I think will really help your stubborn guys is. Guess who the most important who is? The most important who is you.

And so many of these stubborn listeners are like, wait a second. Wait, what? Because they don't prioritize themselves. You can't be good connecting with your team. You can't be a great dad. You can't be a great husband coming home at the end of the day, if all you are doing is reacting, reacting, reacting, reacting, reacting, oh my God, I've lost control of my calendar, but I'm crushing the numbers, but I haven't had time to exercise. I haven't had time for a freaking bio break. I'm certainly don't need a healthy lunch, and I fall asleep miserable at night. Who wants to be that guy, right? And so you have to prioritize yourself first. So the most important who is you. I had this, I'm going to try to keep this question short, even though there's a lead-in.

So I have a friend, and she was DMing me on Instagram, and she was, she doesn't live near me, she was complaining about guys in general, right? She's dating. She's in her 40s, and she's complaining. She's like, you know, she's like, I miss like guys holding doors. Kind of the classic, like, guys have lost chivalry kind of conversation, which I think is very true. I got divorced three years ago, and I didn't realize how bad it was until I started

going out on dates of women. tell me their horror stories and I'm like, holy shit, like this is what you deal with on a day-to-day basis. So guys, step your game up. So she was complaining about that. And then the conversation kind of morphed into old school values versus new school values. And I don't want to make it political necessarily, but I tend to skew more towards old school values. However, one of the things that I think we have started to crack that's so important is like you can be a strong, confident person and still, like, have feelings and emotions and communicate once and a while, how do these guys in particular, although I know it happens to women too, but I think

this is a particularly poignant problem for men who want to be that, you know, and I think, I think not often for bad reasons, for good reasons, they want to be the lighthouse in the storm, right? They feel like that's their role, but then they have no ability to communicate, like, their team sees them as a dictator. And in their mind, they're this benevolent savior, like, you know, keeping the waves from the town. And it's a lot of times it's communication. So what are some of those early communication steps that someone can start to take to actually convey, you know, kind of crack that, you know, macho, alpha male kind of thing that so many guys try to play? Yeah.

So I do this exercise. I run the Saints Leadership Academy and the Pelicans, so our NFL team and our MBA team. And I do this exercise with the leaders. And I said, you know, close your eyes and just think about the best boss you've ever had. And what are those characteristics? And I'm here to tell you, Ryan, those characteristics are they cared about me. I felt seeing. They inspired me to do my best work because they understood my strengths.

So this dictator kind of machismo leadership style is what the seismic shift is about, because that is no longer effective. A really great leader achieves the results and inspires you towards that vision and gets you on that path. But they do it in a way that says, I see you. You matter. And I'm here for you. I'm here to develop you. You have a tremendous gifts and strengths. So a couple of techniques, and your question really,

was what are a couple of communicative techniques that these guys can use. First of all, you begin every interaction with, how are you? comma, really. And I want to know deeper. And then I want you to eliminate but. So I want all these listeners out there. One of the things that you can do is eliminate but. And I do this with all of my coaching clients.

And I get so you get DMs. I get text messages like, oh my gosh, that meeting with my direct report went so much better than I thought because I eliminated butt. As humans, whenever we hear, you did a really great job, Ryan, on that podcast last week, but man, it went too, it went too long. You don't hear anything about you did a really good job. You only hear what comes after the butt. So if there's one thing you can do is eliminate, but.

In another word, you can eliminate is just. Just is minimizing. And that's what this book and my message is about is the size. seismic shift in you, we can do things differently to build more connection. And one of the things we can do is really look at the language we use. I just need one minute of the time, of your time. You might think that that's a good thing, but they're saying, so what I'm about to say is not really this job I'm about to give you. It's not really that important, right? I just need you for this. I just need just, just eliminate just, eliminate but. Eliminate should. You should be doing this.

That's a big one. I catch myself and my kids all. You should. the time you shoulda you should i'm like oh my god i hate that because if anyone ever told me i shoulda i would have like immediately pushed back and i'm doing it to them it's it's so it's like we don't even how do i hear what comes out of my mouth that's a great question do you know when i was when i was a little kid and started entering competitions for public speaking and i would get up and i mean i was that kid who could not stop shaking. And it's crazy that I now teach it, right? Because I was the kid who was so nervous. And I had all of these filler words. And so my coaches would say, record yourself talking and because you don't hear them. And until you hear them, you can't change them. So I remember

recording on an old-fashioned tape recorder and the cassette tape of my speeches and speeches. And then once I finally heard all of the uhs ums and this generation does like you know like you know i have a 21 year old anytime she gives the speech she's like like you know like you know those are words that are distracting and they get in the way of your message so my advice this is a time where you can use your phone and record yourself do an audio recording of your conversation you want to have that's going to be a difficult conversation with your employee and look for words that minimize connection and that that kind of erode connection and take out the butts, the just the shoulds. Yeah.

This is actually a really good use for AI too because you could create a custom prompt or project, etc. inside of, you know, Claude or Open AI and put in like the characteristics of how you want to communicate, right? Like, you know, call out find butts, find you shouldas, find, you know, etc. And then you could actually take your transcripts from team meetings or one-on-ones and upload them and say, analyze this. based on my criteria, like what, how I want to talk and, and learn. Like, that's, that's where some

of these AI tools actually can really help us, I think, as leaders is in self-evaluation. You know, I asked you that question. I want to be completely transparent. That's not my original. I didn't come up with that question. Actually, my counselor asked me that all the time, because she says, I talk too fast. So she's like, how do you, she said one day, like, with how fast you talk, how do you actually hear what you're saying. And I had some sort of sarcastic response to her because that's kind of our relationship. But I thought it was really valuable because a lot of conflict, I communicate something to you. And in my head, I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not really paying attention to the way it's coming out of my face. And then you hear the thing that comes out of my

face, not what was going on in my head. True. You respond. And then I'm like, why the hell did Michelle respond that way? I, you know, I had this good intention and you're like, yeah, but the words you said were, you know, you should have but just. And I felt like a piece of crap and that's why I responded poorly. And it started me thinking like, I need to actually listen to the words that are coming out of my face and not just the intent in my brain, but it's really difficult. It is so hard.

Ryan, I write about this and I can't tell you how often I hear myself using but unjust. It is hard. So I have had to show myself grace and I say to myself, look, if I can just eliminate a few more each day, then I'll continue to get better and better. So this is difficult and it's important. I have so many leaders who have the best of intentions and in their one-on-ones, they just do things that erode that trust, right? And that's the last thing we want to do. words that erode trust, you know what else really pisses off people? Is if they send you a, okay, let's start off this morning. Ryan, I send you a text.

Ryan, it's Michelle. I know you asked for the progress of the report. Let me give you an update and you never respond. Okay, that shows me disrespect. You're like, oh, I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good. We're good.

In your head. But just by not responding makes me feel like, oh, you didn't like my work. It's shoddy. We assume the worst. As humans, we go negative, and that's not good. So how to combat that as a leader is provide the information. Another thing that your listeners can do that is better, if you have to cancel a meeting with your people, explain the why, or at least say, I am so sorry, I did not want to have to cancel this meeting.

I promise we're going to make it up. Because if you just cancel a meeting without explanation, again, we go negative and we think, I'm not important. Ryan's got better people for his podcast. He does not like me. I actually, I'll give you guys an example who are listening to this. So I had a company called Rogue Risk. I was a national digital commercial insurance agency.

And I exited from it at the beginning of 2024. And I had an extremely high performer. She was fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. I didn't have anything for her. She showed up. She did her job. along with everybody. She hit her numbers every month. She was pleasant. She was productive. I mean, literally. I had no,

she was great. So I never communicated with her because she was awesome because I had all these other jerks that were causing problems and couldn't, you know, making snarky comments on Slack and I'm dealing with all this nonsense. So I never, I just never reached out to her because she just showed up and did her job. And then like after a few months, I get this message and she says, I really need to talk to you and I was like okay and I pick up the phone and she's crying. Oh, wow. And she's like, what, what did I do? I thought I was, and I'm like, ho, ho, wait, what's happening?

Like, and I had to, I said, her name was Sam. I was like, Sam, like, I don't reach out to you because you're, I, you're doing great. Like, you know, and it was a complete miss on my part. Like in my, you know, brain, I'm thinking just let her be because that's what I would want just to let me be, right? Just let her be, let her do her job. She's killing it. She's not a problem.

She doesn't cause any issues. And because I didn't think about her, I thought about me. She was like on the verge of quitting because she thought I didn't like her. And, you know, we ended up talking, getting through it, and then we fixed the problem. But it was like, I mean, I was just taken completely off guard by that, you know, because I just wasn't communicating. I wasn't communicating properly or thinking about her. I was just thinking about myself, you know. all these idiots I had to deal with.

That's a great lesson for everybody listening to this, is at the end of the day, whether you're a high performer or whether you, you know, you stir all the crap in the organization, we as humans want to be seen, we want to be heard. So let me back up.

The definition of connection is do you feel seen, heard, valued, respected, and appreciated by your boss? If you don't feel seen, seen heard, valued, appreciated, and respected by your boss, you probably don't feel connected to your boss or the organization, and the number one reason why people leave is because of that. That's why people leave. People continue to think it's salary. It is not salary. Sometimes it is, but more likely than not, the majority of people leave because of a boss they don't feel connected to, a mission they don't feel connected to, an organization they don't think they fit in because they don't feel connected.

Do you have to have all five? So I struggled with this when I was looking at the definition of connection. I'm like, man, that's a lot. However, you can make somebody feel connected by just saying, gosh, the way you showed up to the meeting last week, despite the tough conversation and the tough topic, it really added to the energy, thank you. And that made that person feel seeing her valued respect, appreciated. Pretty much by saying thank you hits on all cylinders. So I played a lot of sports growing up And I think about this like the ass pat

Like the coach's ass pat You know what I mean? Like coaches comes up to you It gives you a little pat on the butt Doesn't say a word to you Just walks right past you right And in your mind you're like It's what I'm doing

I feel great You know what I mean? And it's you don't need any more than that You know maybe in the work environment We shouldn't be patting each other's asses But like you know The idea is I think to your point

Like it doesn't need to be this like big heavy handed award. It could literally just be a slack message. It says you're killing it right now. Sorry, I haven't been able to connect or something, right? Can you imagine, Ryan? Can you imagine Sam getting that from you? She would have been like,

that's what she needed. That was the mistake. To keep going at her level, at her high level, to keep going, she just needed to know that I see you, you're doing a great job. This I see you thing, what are some other ways that you've seen leaders do this well because I really, to me, if you can, and push back of me if you're, I'm wrong, right?

But like, if you can show them that they're being seen, the others feel like they could be derivatives, right? Like, like that just, hey, I saw your numbers for the month. Awesome. Sorry, we didn't get to connect, but it's because you're killing it. And I got three jerks over here I'm dealing with. But keep going. You're amazing, right?

Ryan, if you said that to me, I would be unclouded. nine. Yeah. That's all it takes. That's all it takes. I, so it sounds to me like maybe a lot of people, maybe they think it's more than it needs to be. They make it too complicated. And that's why they don't do it. Yes. And Chester Elton, one of my favorite people, he wrote Leading with Gratitude. And he kept hearing, because he believes that that is the secret sauce to great leadership, is really saying, Thank you. I'm grateful for the work you're doing and leading with gratitude is going to get you far. And the pushback he received was leaders would say, well, I don't want to say it too much because then it's going to kill their motivation. I don't want to be like too nice. How many times? So he conducted a study to see how many times was too much.

And he said he found that the average per day was maybe one, one thank you. And that because leaders were scared, they do it too much. and that too much was over nine times, and no one in the history of his research ever did it nine, seven, eight, nine times. So you almost can't say it enough. What does it say about, like, human nature that, like, the first instinct of people is, see this awesome thing? Well, I don't want to do it too much. Like, you would think, you know, I guess the way my mind goes with that is, like,

let's say I said it five times a day, which would still be a lot and great. It almost is a, it doesn't demotivate them because they don't want to go to three, like, asspats a day. Like, what if I'm getting five ass pads of practice and all of a sudden I start getting two ass paths of practice? Now I'm like, well, shit, where are my other three ass pets go? I want, I need to work harder.

I need to get that. I want those five every day. Yeah. Like, it, you know, it would be, it does not seem, you know, not a human psychologist. I was a math major in college, but it doesn't seem like human nature. to me that that would demotivate anybody. It almost seems like it's confidence building.

It's security. It's, you know, those, my brain's not working, those things. For the audience, no, my entire house, the circuit breakers all went down right before Michelle and I were supposed to get loud, or go live. So, oh, get loud too, I guess. So my brain is running. And the more specific you can be, too, you know, by just saying, Thank you. That's fine. But how about, again, thank you for that excellent conversation. Thank you for the energy you brought to that meeting. Thank you for hitting your numbers every week. What would I do without you? So adding more specificity to your thank you goes a long way as well.

What does connection mean outside of the office to our performance inside of the office? You mean with customers and constituents? I think. I think oftentimes, and it's incredibly important, the connection conversation between leadership and team. But then there's the connection with our customers, our vendors, with our peers, with our family, right,

the people that are important in our lives. There's all these other connections. And, you know, a lot of the time when I get, you know, I have people who reach out or DM or have questions, the question will be framed as a business problem.

But within like two or three whys or, you know, just kind of follow-up questions. Oftentimes it has, the problem is rarely relegated to just business. Totally. So, you know, is cultivating all of these connections, like does that become the leader's job?

Is risk really cultivating the connections in my life so that I can be healthy and lead with gratitude? Is this kind of become my job? And where I'm going with this, let me just frame this one more for a second. my opinion is that we very few people understand the job description of a CEO, a leader, a founder, the top of the pyramid. They think it's still to be the best salesperson or the best business development person

or the person who's always on stage talking all the time. And I'm of the opinion that you have this dialed, that your job is actually, when you get to the top, is you invert the pyramid and you're actually the supporting pillar of the organization. Me too. And this connection piece to me that you talk about in your book, like, this is the only way your message gets through. So this feels like not like a nice to have kind of thing.

I know I was kind of making fun a little bit about luxury problems at the beginning, but obviously that was in Jess. Like this feels to me like a core skill to being a great leader, not just this nice thing to do if I want to. take my business to the next level. Like, you cannot move forward without being at least adequate at building and developing connections. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I love the description. You said you have a lot of, you know, I don't even think you use the word dude, but that's how I heard it like, bros, dudes, like, who are like, just, come on. I just need to get the results.

Come on, man. Don't bore me with that stuff. And I agree with you, Ryan. You can't afford not to. And so I had on a great guest on my podcast recently. And, and he, goes, look, he was, I had to learn how to do this. I was not a natural. I said, okay, so how did you go from not caring with your people and not talking about how are you doing really? I want to get, to know you as a person, tell me about your family, to all of a sudden you showing up wanting all of that. How did you frame that? And he said, I showed up in my one-on-ones and said, okay, for 2026, I need to do a better job connecting with you. And I have it. And I'm really sorry. and I'm kind of embarrassed because I realize, like, this connection in our relationship that we have,

that's what is going to grow this company. So I'm going to start asking you kind of deeper questions about you and yourself and what motivates you a little bit more about your family. Don't be freaked out. I'm doing it because I really want to get closer for the organization to succeed. I think it's all about selling the why. Why are you all of a sudden asking me how I'm doing when you never seem to care before? Yeah.

Because it could come off as your angle in for. something if you don't set it up properly. And authentic. And that's the last thing we want, right? So I really do think that you as a leader should begin every meeting, whether it's one-on-one. And you did a great job with me today, Ron. You're like, Michelle, where do you live? Where are you? Like, what brought you to New Orleans, right?

You just kind of, and I got to know a little bit about Albany and when I need to visit. You really need to just kind of get to know somebody before you don't have trust and comfort and safety unless you get to know somebody. and you need all those elements to drive results. Yeah, I completely and utterly agree. One of the first, we'll call it quasi-viral pieces of content that I ever created was a blog post. And this was years ago. This was viral for a decade ago.

Let's put it that way. It was titled, About People, Colon, Give a Shit. That's the name of your book. Yeah. Seriously. And I didn't have the psychological background. You know, like I said, I was a math major. I cheated my way through college.

Basically, I started as an engineering major because I thought that would be, that was like, so I grew up very poor. I had this very distinct memory of being 12 in my town looking around going, I got to get the out of here. Like, this can't be my life. It was a shithole. 900 people, one street light. We used to say you could leave the doors open because the criminals lived in our town. They didn't rob in our town.

And in my little brain, you know, engineering was something that could get me out of this place. Okay. So I go to school for engineering. I also got a baseball scholarship. And I got to my second semester in my sophomore year. And I had a one-two GPA and hadn't taken a, haven't been able to pass a full rack of classes in any of the semesters because engineering was really hard. Yeah. And my guidance counselor or whatever, the person says, you can either choose baseball or

engineering and I was like baseball drinking chasing girls engineering so I became a math major and you know so you can tell how important academics were to me coming out but um my my point in saying all this is that without any of really understanding the psychology behind it I've never understood I've never understood how someone could demand something of another person in a business environment without that connection. Like it doesn't produce results. That's the part that has always been interesting to me is I like I said, I tend to try to work everything through reality.

I may not like reality, but I try to work it through reality. And it just doesn't produce results. If we have no connection at all and you just show up to this podcast and I start pounding questions off your face, how open are you going to be? to sharing insights or stories or laugh. Zero, right? It's just going to be this bland, generic thing that whatever we kind of get through and then we're done. Versus, I love New Orleans. Most drunk I've ever been.

Worst Hangover ever had. You know what I mean? Like, also some of the best food I've ever had. Some of the most interesting people I've ever known. You know what I mean? Like, now we're going, okay. And then you're asking me what? Like, it just, it doesn't.

And that, what was that interaction? Two minutes? Exactly my point. Exactly. This does not take a long time. And I bet you if you ask every listener who's tuned in, do you want your people to climb the mountain with you? Do you want them to walk through fire when you need them to? Because it matters?

Yeah, well, they're not going to climb the mountain or walk through fire or stay up until 2 a.m. Unless they know you care about them as humans. Yeah. And I would love for you to break this one down for me. I hear a lot of people, a lot of leaders who'll be like, yeah, well, but, you know, if I do it myself or if I just tell them how to do it, then it gets done the way that I want. And I see that as a complete cop out. Like that's fear, that scarcity mindset. Like how do you rattle someone out of that cage?

Because that, that just, that road leads nowhere. That dog does not hunt. Oh my gosh. So I always, you had mentioned how to get people's attention that they need to kind of pivot towards connection. And I begin any coaching contract, any coaching relationship with a 360. And that's what really motivates change is when you see it in writing how other people say your inability to delegate is causing me to want to look for another job. it's making me feel like I'm not adding any value because you're going to end up doing it anyhow or you're going to come behind my back and second guess or proof read or change this. That is the number one theme that comes up in 360s that really gets in the way of great leadership.

Is the leader thinks, oh, I'm going to get in all the details because then I know it's perfect, but perfection is disconnect. Perfection is disconnection. So you will not have a close relationship with your people if you're constantly, micromanaging. You got to pull up, man. You want to be a great leader. A great leader strategic. Pull up.

Trust your people. Plus, like, this is, so I was talking to a guy the other day. I was after a keynote and, after I get done keynoting, I want like a beer so badly. Like my, I don't know what it is. I don't want any.

It's not, I don't need five. I need one. And I need one. a beer. No other alcohol. It's just like something about that, like, all my dopamine comes back, whatever I lose during it. Okay. So I'm standing at the bar. I'm just kind of having a beer, whatever guy comes up, and we start chit-chat. And we're talking about, I've done like, I have this keynote that I do around, you know, positioning yourself as a leader in the age of AI, like how to handle this technology philosophically and system sematically. Okay. And he's asking

a couple questions and he's like, you know, just, I know if I do it, I get it. I get it. it done right, right? I get it done right. And I said, well, you know, so there's only one way to do it. And he goes, well, I go, you know, and I'm like, so, so there's multiple ways to get it done. Yeah, okay. Well, so why is your way the only right way? Well, I mean, I guess it's not. I just know it's going to get done. Oh, okay. So, so it's not that your way is the only way. It's just that you then know it gets done. So are you just not holding your people accountable? Did you not set boundaries for what's acceptable for success? Like, that I'm holding as a badge of honor,

their perfectionism and it gets done the right way. In my opinion is scaffolding for the real problem, which is I didn't build an elevator in my business, right? That's what this is. Like I didn't build the systems and processes and communicate to my people what actually needs to get done. so I'm just going to do it myself and then go, whoa is me, look how hard I work.

Why doesn't anyone else want to work 20 hours a day bullshit? I'm like, this is not you being a great leader or some grinding pound entrepreneur or whatever meme you want on the internet. Like you're being an idiot. Like you're not able to scale your business because of this and look how much stress you have. Like, true.

It's so much systems and processes. Yes. And I have a great piece of advice or great recommendation for your listeners. It's what's called, and I didn't come up with it, and I wished a goodness I did. Michael Bungay Steyer wrote, he's all about these little bitty books, how to work with almost anyone. He came up with this concept called a Keystone Conversation.

And he said, if you really want to have a successful project, a successful interaction, a successful relationship, a successful performance appraisal, you got to start with that Keystone conversation. And that Keystone conversation is going to share with people. and it's two-way. It's no longer that I'm the leader, so I'm going to tell you what you need to do to work best with me. Here's what I need from you. It's, okay, here's how I'm at my best. How are you at your best, Ryan? When are you at your worst so that I know what not to do? Here's when I'm at my worst.

What does success look like to you? Okay, so you have all of that in the beginning and then you have the conversation of, okay, what's the timeline? This is going to be your role, my role. If you have that Keystone conversation at the beginning of every new project, then that's the elevator. That's the scaffolding, right? And it just takes one, not just not, it takes one conversation in the beginning. I will tell you, it's never too late. I'm embarrassed to tell you, I did not have the Keystone conversation with my co-author. And he has, and I took a sabbatical to write this book. I was so honored, he's the number one executive coach in the world, number one global thought leader, had written 50 books, and I'm like, pinch, pinch, pinch, pinch.

Oh my gosh, I get to write a book with Marshall Goldsmith. So I used my framework and every week, I was like, Marshall, I need to get on your calendar. Marshall, I need to get on your calendar. Hello, Marshall, Marshall, Marshall. Drove him freaking nuts. He ended up just kind of ignoring me. And so finally I went to somebody else who had written a book with him. I said, how would it be best to work with Marshall?

And it was Michael Bundy-Stainer, and he's like, you've got to have a Keystone conversation. Marshall doesn't want to meet with you every week. What? I was like, I was just doing what I thought success looked like. He goes, yeah, for you. Yeah. So my point in being really vulnerable and sharing that with you is then I called Marshall Up, which was the appropriate channel because he actually picks up the phone. He's old school. And I said, Marshall, what would work best for you? He goes, oh, yeah, no, no, no, Michelle, I'm writing the book with you because I support you. I love your writing. Love your brand. Write the book first and then send it to me. So it's never too late. That was probably a couple months into this as I was banging my head against the wall, but it's never too late. Like, oh, okay, wish I would have had this earlier, but we can, of course, correct. I will not bother you every week. I will write my book, and then we'll talk about how you can add in your martialisms.

So it's never too late. Keystone conversation, critical. I appreciate you sharing that story with us. There's so much power in that, like, because I think what gets lost for a lot of people, that you just articulated so incredibly well, is like you thought you were doing the right thing. Like in your head, you're like, I'm being proactive.

I'm showing him how excited I am to work with him and, you know, all this stuff. And like in your brain, you are doing nothing wrong. You're just full tilt value to him. And in his mind, he's like, holy crap. I can't, you know. And it took that one conversation.

It's, um, I drove him nuts. He was probably thinking, why did I agree? to write with this crazy woman. But we were, you know, we course corrected and we write, you know, we ended up writing the ship. Thank goodness. So, yeah, Keystone conversation again, I wish to goodness I'd come up with that concept because

I think it's brilliant and so easy. Yeah, I agree. And I love your idea that it's not too late. Like I actually was talking to my ex-wife the other day. She owns a business and she was talking about one of her employees and, you know, they've just been struggling and da-da-da-da. And I was like, well, have you talked to, have you talked to her? like about what's going on.

And she's like, well, no, she's kind of stand up. I'm like, she's your team member. Like, you can, you know, just sit her down and talk to her maybe. And, you know, whether she listened to me or not, probably not. But that's why we're not married anymore. But, you know, I was always right. And, you know, the. Speaking of which, I'm divorced like you.

And as I'm listening to you, Ryan, I'm like, man, I should have had a lot more keystone conversation when I was married. Well, now it's so funny. You know, it's, you know, it's, you know, So I teach a framework called Peak, presence, energy, awareness, and calibration, calibration with a K. And because I have fairly severe ADHD and at all times my brain and body want to go a thousand miles an hour, right? I can clean your brain just hitting.

Yeah. And I tried medication. I tried Adderall and found that while it works incredibly well to be task oriented, it like just chops my creativity right off and I don't like that. So I've, you know, so I've had to find frameworks and build frameworks in my life to get there. And, you know, one of the things that like under awareness is probably the key to the entire framework is this idea of stopping and just being aware of what's going on. I think we move so fast through our day that we're not aware that we were curt.

with someone or that we walked right by a team member and didn't even acknowledge their presence or, you know, that someone had an email sitting in our inbox for three days and now they're sitting at their desk thinking that you don't like them because you haven't responded yet. And it's because we just haven't slowed, you know, slowed down long enough to just kind of go, how am I showing up here today? Like, it's, that's a really tough skill, I think, especially for driven people because they just want progress, progress, progress, progress, progress. And we so rarely, like, just go, how, how, how, how am I showing up for Michelle? Like, am I fully here with her? Like, am I max energy

today with her? And then what do I have to do to put myself in that position? And what, what I love about what you teach and what you talk about in this book is, is that these, you're giving them a strategy, but that, that strategy is these little micro moments that produce so much value. They're just micro moments. We even talk nothing you've described today. This is what I love about what you're teaching is that nothing you've described today is this three month journey or I got to do a week, you know, retreat somewhere to figure out this process. It's just like slow down and maybe ask some questions and like care about people. You just summarized my book. So long. Ask questions. Give a shit. Show your people you care about

them bring bring some positive energy into interactions try to show up as your best self yeah and invert the pyramid so that you're not on the top that it's all about your people i love that's the case that's connection um so i've been in sales or tangentially in sales for for most of my career and uh about about probably about a decade ago like 2016 2017 uh i was talking to a buddy who ultimately became a mentor of mine. And, you know, we're talking about the sales process and different stuff. And he's like, you talk too much. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, silence is a superpower. He's like, ask your friggin question and shut the up. He's like, and I took that to heart. Now, I'm not always great at practicing it. I do try. It's a practice. I haven't got there yet. But, but I do think,

and this is, you know, maybe this is where I would love you to come in on this is like, I feel like sometimes we try to solution before we understand what the problem is because we're not listening. So how do, okay, so I finally sit down and I say, Michelle, what's going on in your life? How can I help you? How can I make your day to day better? What's going on? And then like, you'll say one thing. And I'll come over the top and go, well, do you need a new tool?

Do you need more time? Can I get it? And it's like overwhelming. What mechanism or any advice that you have for people to actually. hear the response from the person when they do slow down long enough to ask the important kind of give a shit questions. Yeah, I interviewed and he passed away right after our interview, Dr. Mark Golston, and he was the number one, oh gosh, he came up with surgical empathy. He helped kids prevent suicide. He was this renowned psychiatrist in California. And his whole mantra was,

you just got to ask more questions and go deeper. And he called it the five reallys. So like you said, most of us, Ryan, just say, okay, like when you ask me, tell me what's going on in your life. I was imagining, okay, I would just start talking and then you immediately want to solve the problem. And that's also very gender as well. There's very a male, female gender thing going on too. Men love to solve the problems. Women just want to know that you listen and you care, but don't solve my problem. Just hear me out, right? So he recommends five really. So if I sat there and said, Ryan, you know what I'm really struggling with? I'm wondering, am I trying to do too much? Should I simplify my life? I'm pretty exhausted. And then say, tell me more or really. And I'd say, yeah, let me tell you a con thing.

Really? Yeah. Tell me more about that. So it's just, he called it surgical empathy where you just go deeper and deeper and deeper and and man, the world will be your oyster, particularly in sales. You teach the salespeople how to do that, how just to go deeper with empathy, deeper with questioning. You will know exactly

what you need to do to solve their problem without ever telling them, right? Because you'll have them in the palm of your hands. Yeah, I read somewhere that and I'm going to butcher this and someone can fact check me because I'm probably butchering it. But there is an anecdotal stat where if you use the Socratic method by like the third why, there's like a 99.

something percent chance the person's no longer lying to you. Like if you ask why enough times, like by the third why or whatever, follow up question, like you said, that's like, like humans are unable. It's like an AI losing context of a conversation. Like they can't continue to hide or bend the truth after the third why. Like it like cracks them open and they just tell you what's really going on. So when you think about that, like, let's assume that's true or some version of that, two, four, five, some whatever.

The point is asking somebody wants a question and assuming you got the full answer, it never going to be the case or very rarely. You know, I totally agree. And I even renamed the chapter. It was going to be a chapter on listening. And I feel like that's almost too ambiguous for people. to be a great listener is really just to be a great questioner. Ask great questions.

Go deeper with questioning. So if you think about this whole conversation, trying to deconstruct connection, really is just asking people about them. Asking great questions that go deeper than surface will make them know that you care about them, you see them. They matter to you. They're not just cogs in the wheel. They're not just the bottom line results. If you just ask more questions, why don't we do that for 2026? Ask more questions.

That's all we ask. Like you said, these are just micro things that are so easy to do and they don't take a lot of time. But man, you've got to show the effort. Ask more questions. That's connection. That's actually a super hack for your marriage slash relationship as well that I learned post-divorce. but just asking questions, the other person just feels completely hurt. And you're like, which makes sense, right?

Like, I love, you ask me questions. I love that. I'm like, oh, Michelle cares about me. Awesome. You know, it doesn't even have to be a deep question, right? But when your partner asks you questions about your day or your life, it's like all you want. Like what, you know, how many sitcoms has there been a punchline, you know, the husband or the wife walks in the door and the other partner, you know, just ignores them or does it? And they, couldn't you just ask me on my day?

Like, that's like the punchline in some episode of every sitcom ever. And somehow in our, we know this about ourselves. Yet, if we can even practice in our relationship, it never makes it to our business life. And it's just basic human psychology. It's everything you've said today. People want to be, could you go through the list again? That list is so good. Cared, heard for?

We want to be seen, heard, valued, respected. and appreciated. And we all do because we're all humans. Yeah, I love that. I want to wrap up with this question. What is one thing that is vitally important to this idea of connection that we have not discussed today that you think weren't being called out? You know, so that people can drive deeper and come get your book and follow your content. What haven't we discussed?

What did I miss? Yeah, so we discussed shifting from what to who. We discuss the most important who is you. We discuss the importance of shifting your meetings so that you're asking and including, right? We discussed keystone conversations. We discussed language and we discussed energy. The only shift we didn't address in today's conversation, Ryan, is the importance of shifting your calendar. So I'm tired of people complaining to me.

I'm exhausted. I'm in eight back-to-back zooms a day. Well, whose fault is that? own your freaking calendar do something have 30 minute meetings but then i'll have twice as many meetings nope have 30 minute meetings and and schedule time for a bio break schedule time to to go through your emails you don't have to be kind of at the beck and call of you you have more ownership than you realize so i think if we all shifted our calendars so that it works better for us and we're not just complaining all the time and reacting that's going to serve us

so much better in this new year. We could do an entire episode on this. We could. We could. I'm, this is like, as an entrepreneur as a leader, this is my weakest spot.

This is like my cryptonite. And because I live by my calendar. Like, if it's not on my calendar, I've told my, I tell my parents all the time, like, you know,

if it's not on my calendar, I'm not going to be, like I don't know what it exists. I just have too much going on. But then I never take control of it. I never slow down. And then I do exactly what you. Oh, I had a hard day today.

Nine back-to-back zooms and your smoke coming out of your ears. And, you know, you're like slumped down in your chair. And the last three meetings you were terrible on with no energy and nothing to contribute because you're exhausted. But you're like, but that's the job. And it's like, nope. No, it's not. Correct. Oh, it's not.

Correct. So that's our end piece of advice and probably the biggest bang for the buck. Oh, I love that. It's shift your freaking calendar so that it works. for you, not against you. And I was just, I was so, Ryan, I was so honored. I was just on NBC News with Kate Snow, and this is what she wanted to talk about. And here's my quote, show me your calendar, and I will show you your priorities, and it might

make you really uncomfortable because the most important people in your life might not be there. Amen. Amen. The seismic shift in you, where can people get the book? Where can they go deeper into your world? Yeah, absolutely. So it's sold on Amazon. We have the e-book.

We have the audiobook and the hardback at your local bookstore. And on my website, Michelle K.jonsten.com. I'd love to hear from all of you all. It is super exciting. And I think it's more important than ever before, the seismic shift in you. Guys, we'll have everything linked up below, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. I love you for listening to this show. We are out of here.

Peace. That was amazing. Thank you, Ryan. I loved it. I love the discussion.