The Ryan Hanley Show - The Futuristic Framework for Exceptional Performance | Chris Deaver

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Became a Master of the Close: https://masteroftheclose.comDiscover the intricate dance between bravery and ego in business with our special guest, Chris Deaver. Want more? Go deeper down the rabbit hole: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanley Connect with Chris DeaverBraveCore: https://bravecore.co/Brave Together book: https://bravecore.co/blog/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-deaver/We start with a thought-provoking discussion on the true nature of bravery—not just the absence of fear but a potent energy that can be magnified through collective effort. Chris shares his insightful perspective on how bravery can be a driving force within teams, especially during challenging times like the pandemic when ego can become our greatest obstacle.We then venture into the high-stakes realm of the NBA to examine how ego influences leadership and team performance. Drawing lessons from iconic legends like Michael Jordan and LeBron James, we uncover how humility and loyalty are essential for fostering team cohesion and achieving success. With real-life examples, we reveal the importance of setting aside personal accolades for the greater good and how this mindset can lead to extraordinary achievements both on and off the court.Finally, we focus on the transformative power of co-creation and emotional vulnerability in leadership. By exploring the leadership styles of Michael Jordan and Steve Jobs, we highlight the importance of openness and receptivity, from creating a strong internal culture to asking the right questions. Wrapping up with insights from the inspiring book "Brave Together," we encourage leaders to embrace empathy, compassion, and collaborative leadership to foster innovation and sustained success. Join us on this journey to become better co-creators and leaders in your own right.

Fear, I see as this potential energy. Limits of that go way beyond our own capabilities. Being brave can be really unleashed and amplified when we're being brave with others. Let's go. Yeah, make it look, make it look, make it look easy. The Ryan Hanley Show shares the original ideas, habits, and mindsets of world-class original

thinkers you can use to produce extraordinary results in your life and business. This is the way. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. It is tremendous to have you here, and we have a fantastic conversation for you today with Chris Deaver. He is the co-founder of BraveCore, a leadership and culture consulting and coaching company. He is the co-author of the book Brave Together,-depth, applicable kind of culture leadership conversations we have ever had on this show. Chris really dives into this idea of co-creation and what it means for developing the successful company cultures of the future. We talk detail. We talk applicable

strategies that you can put in your business today. I highly recommend you pick up Chris's book. We'll have it in the show notes or the description wherever you're watching or listening to this show. We'll have a link to both Brave course page where you can learn more about Chris and his work as well as his book, Brave Together, which again, I highly recommend you pick up this book. If you are a leader, if you are trying to build a company with a culture that can go beyond where you alone can take it, right? We can only take our company so far alone or with disjointed cultures. But when our people align together, when our people take ownership of what we're doing, when they feel that they're part of the creation process, you can go 10 times, 100 times, you can go farther

than you could have ever imagined. And Chris outlines exactly how to do that and how he's implementing these strategies in Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 500 companies across the US through his coaching company, BraveCorp. i want to thank you for being here i love you for being here if it's your first time with this show make sure you subscribe if you have comments guys leave them in the reviews on apple or spotify or on youtube right come in let us know what you think what parts of these strategies make sense don't make sense the guests that come on this show are amazing at coming back in and answering those direct questions and if i can answer the question i will as well it is a fantastic way to keep the

conversation going around this topic guys you are going to love this episode i love you for being here let's get on to chris deaver dude incredibly excited to have you on the show. Love your work. Love your mindset. I've actually done some diving on my own just as I started reading your stuff and I started asking. I want to start with the word bravery. It's not a word that's used a lot today.

I think it's often, I don't know that it's often misunderstood, but I don't think people really dive into what bravery means. So you use this word a lot in your work. What is bravery today and how does it apply to our businesses as either entrepreneurs, leaders, et cetera? How does it apply to that in the context of our work lives? Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks again for having me on, Ryan. I'm excited to dive in the context of our work lives? Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks again for having me on, Ryan.

I'm excited to dive in. I think the thing we usually hear in, whether any kind of self-help or leadership material or just conversation, usually we think about being brave as the counter to fear, and there's truth to that. But usually we think about it just as an either or, right? We're either having, you've got fear or being brave. But really, fear I see as this potential energy, right?

That has way more potential than just, you know, getting us out of the negative. And there's so much more to what it can do. And the limits of that go way beyond our own capabilities, right? So usually we think about it in just the individual personal context. But being brave can be really unleashed and amplified when we're being brave with others. How does bravery relate to the concept of ego? You put this phenomenal proclamation out. I was reading through your LinkedIn.

And when I hit this, I have it up on the screen now. And I'll make sure in the show notes for everybody, I'll include the LinkedIn post so one of you guys can connect or follow Chris and also see this document that I'm looking at. But I've been a firm believer for a long time that what holds us back in almost every aspect of our lives is the ego, right? It can be a positive, but it oftentimes is corrupted into something that ends up having negative consequences for us. So how does bravery apply to the negative aspects of ego and overcoming them,

if that's even how we relate it? Yeah, that's, I think, a great question. And we all have a tendency to lean the ego at times. We're human beings. We're people. And I think especially in the world of, you world of we're trying to do something different, whether it's as an entrepreneur building our own business or inside a company being an entrepreneur, the reality is you've got to have confidence in what you're doing.

But ego really starts to get in the way at times when we don't even know it. And so, yeah, the letter was, and it's really a statement to ego. It's a breakup letter, right? It's like, hey, we're done, you know? And I think especially with the pandemic, it showed kind of the true colors about how little ego serves us and how much of a disservice it is to us.

But to give one example, just highlight, I think, how this really plays out. You look at NBA teams, and these are people who show up at that level, pro level, and they've all been told, they've all worked hard enough to be the best. And you bring together a group of people who have been told or who have earned being the best. And so suddenly what happens, though, and because of kind of the marketing engine of NBA, they pick out one person, one or two guys, typically, and they'll say, hey, this is a star. If they don't play well, we're not winning.

Things aren't going as great as we want, whatever. But all the pressure is on this one person. What it does is actually, it actually causes issues. And we looked at the data on this and, you know, take, for example, John Morant with his team. The team actually statistically plays better without him. LeBron James, I know it's going to sound surprising because a lot of people love LeBron James, I know it's going to sound surprising because a lot of people love LeBron,

but the Lakers, statistically speaking, they play better without him. And, you know, Michael Jordan, he's probably an argument for the other. And, you know, I will say the caveat there is when LeBron's on fire, when he's playing well, when he's playing selfless, it, you know, it pulls the team together. And likewise with, you know, it pulls the team together. And likewise with, you know, we saw with the Warriors in their peak time and, you know, Jordan as well when they, I mean, but I think the point is, is that, and I guess the reason there is you have a bunch of players who are saying, hey, well, they assume that they're the best. They're being told they're not, right?

Because there's this one person. But that's the challenge with ego in our lives is like suddenly you know somebody's got a this kind of competitive notion of like who's better you know or competing against um you know this unseen force in our lives that we feel like we can never attain right and that's also a problem. Yeah. It doesn't surprise me a lot, LeBron, because I can't stand LeBron. But that's I'm more of a Kobe Michael guy. I'm with you for anyone who follows me on Instagram. They know that everyone every time I see Michael Jordan, LeBron James comparison, I always post it into my stories because I just I can't Michael to me was obviously had his failings as a leader of that team for sure and in some of the ways that he

went about things and I don't want to even say failings I'd say uh friction points is probably a better way to put it uh certainly not the leadership style that everyone would recommend in their company. However, he did two things that I find that I just keep coming back to when I'm comparing the two, which is he was always focused on the goal and his numbers didn't matter to him. He almost never knew how many points he had. He cared about winning the game. And if he could take the shot and win the game he would take the shot but if there was someone better to take the

shot then he would pass the ball or he would set the play up or in multiple cases they won games on last second shots by other players in which he was actually the diversion and and that was set up by him and like that to me when when you have a guy who you would think and he had an ego obviously i mean jordan knew he was the best and thought he was the best at all times but when you also see that that person is willing to set that aside in moments where it's necessary it's like you'll put up with all the other stuff or some of the maybe some of the friction because you know that when the rubber meets the road they're going to be there for you so is it is it humility is it loyalty like what is the other side of ego look like for someone who goes okay I maybe I do oftentimes

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Yeah, absolutely. And I think Michael's a great example in many ways. Because to your point, well, first of all, whenever that conversation comes up with him he always defers right he he won't claim he's never claimed being the goat which is fascinating in and of itself and actually his response to that question we include this in the book is this where he says you know that's the wrong question the right question is is what's the greatest team of all time and then he flashes his rings right and to your point that was his focus right and there's

a moment in the last dance i think it's you know in episode seven this is my favorite part of the whole thing and they're they're kind of cornering about his leadership approach right which sometimes was tough on them but he always said i don't I never expected more of them than I expected of myself right which is leadership and his will to win what he says in that moment too he said he he he says um you know some people didn't like my method or you know don't like my methods but what I really wanted I always wanted to win he said but I really wanted most was I wanted the team to want to win and to feel what that felt like. And then he starts to get emotionally like tears up and he goes, turn the camera off, you know, but that's like his soul. And I think there's so much power in that because he is laying his ego aside, right? And that,

in that moment, what he's doing is saying, Hey, I'm willing to make the hero sacrifice. And, you know, we talk about the hero's journey. We love the part at the end with the rewards and, you know, we get all the stuff and, you know, get the money and the fame, but the part that people don't like as much because it's painful is the hero's sacrifice. And to your point, you know, for him, that's deferring to Pippen or passing to Steve Kerr for that game winning shot. And those are the kinds of things, or, you know, going in, he's got the flu, right? He's sick. He's, you know, it's crazy stuff.

But I think those are the kinds of things where we look at ourselves and say you know uh the answer is going to be we're gonna have to make some kind of sacrifice right and i think sacrifice is a principle that is unfortunately kind of getting lost it feels like but it doesn't have to be like we can find power in making the sacrifices, you know, for our future and, you know, especially for others, right, for the team. Yeah, I love that. To me, in the companies that I've either founded or run myself, something that I try to reiterate to the team, and this is a learned lesson. I don't want to say, like, this is just something that was intrinsic inside me. Not many, many failed conversations and meetings and leadership moments

to get to this mindset. But, you know, I used to say to the team every day, you know, I'm here to support you. Like you tell me what your problems are. And as the CEO, as much as it's in a vein that I can help, I'm here to put you in your best position, right? It's not about me being on top of the mountain and just preaching down to you all the things we catch ourselves in that, like why salespeople won't pick up the phone or, you know, like do their job, you know, we get frustrated in moments, but ultimately it's, if you, if you can spin that back on how am I, how am I impacting them not picking up the phone

or not following up with a prospect? What is my role in that? Am I not giving them the right tools? Are they not properly trained? Right. We, we often don't sink down to that level. It's like this, and you address this, um, I don't know if it's, and you address this, I don't know if it's in the book or the, I can't remember if it's in the article or not, but you've addressed this, where it's like, just because I told you to do, like, it's your job, do your job, right? That mentality of like, just do your job, that doesn't motivate anybody. And you have the co-creation process that you outline in your book, the framework, and I want to get into that. To me, what you outlined is the solution. Guys, everybody needs to read this book.

I'm going to have the link in the description. This is, in my opinion, the leadership style for max results. It absolutely is. So talk to me a little bit about this concept of, of co-creation, where it came from and how it plays into getting the most out of your team. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, first off, you know, to your point, co-creation is the next big wave. It's already happening. And, you know, we ask ourselves, even things with technology, it's like, how do we, how things with technology, it's like, who's going to win in the AI space? Well, the key to this is co-creation. We look in the past, we're like, well, efficiency was the focus. We look far enough back. Effectiveness and this big wave of co-creation is key but to your point it's like if you show up if we show up as leaders or entrepreneurs and it's employer employee right people do not respond well to that anymore and granted we're still people are still employees don't get me wrong but if you show up as co-creator

with it with your people and they're a co-creator you unlock magic right and um you know they're they're examples of this throughout time. I think, you know, Steve Jobs is a great archetype because he was both at times. And there was, you know, he got fired from his own company. He, you know, that was a big kick in the teeth. You know, all the great leaders probably had a version of that. Yep. But the difference that it made, the difference that happened was, you know, he was driving people towards objectives oftentimes in that kind of push-pull way.

Even though he was focused on innovation and a lot of things he was doing well. But there was a shift that happened where you had kind of a rough Steve that turned to change Steve. And Ed Catmull, who worked with him, who founded Pixar with Steve, worked for Steve for 26 years, the longest of anybody. And he's a good friend, Ed is. And his observation was about this, the hero's journey, that when Steve was kicked out of his company and in the wilderness, effectively, he learned things at depth because he had to look internally. And there's this mirror test of he was asking himself, what do I need to do differently? Instead of like blaming other people, you know, it was, hey, what do I need to do differently as a

leader? And the things that he learned from that, it gave him a sense of compassion and empathy that he didn't have. And what would happen is then he would show up in meetings. The statements that we usually read, those power quotes, like I don't hire people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do. This has changed Steve, right? He'd show up in meetings. This would be a shock to a lot of people.

He'd be sitting there, and he would take a position, maybe a hard stance on something, and then to hear people out, they'd say something, and he'd flip 180. Right. And then people in the room would say, what? Like, you know, because most most of the time, you know, CEO or leader of the company, they've got to have it right the whole time. Right there. They got to stick with their guns.

But C would say, no, actually, that's the best idea. I'm pivoting because he's right. Right. Or that or she's right. And I think that that's a good example of co creation. And best companies do this, the best brands do it. I love that example. I mean, especially because people have this image of Steve Jobs running and raving and pounding desks and throwing computers and screaming at people when none of that was his best work. I mean, it may have been some of his early get-off-the-ground work,

but Apple's escape velocity wasn't until he turned into what you just described. I mean, it's 100% the case. You know, I think the idea of a hierarchy is almost like a four-letter word these days. But the way I always approached it was you need to have a hierarchy of responsibility so that people know what their roles are and what they're responsible to get done. But then call it a flat communication and kind of creativity format where people can bring ideas and stuff. That to me feels like the only way but to your point and this is my next question in order to do the second part that the flat communication and creativity you have to be willing to change your mind you have to be able to listen to people and go well we were thinking about doing it this way but what she just described

you know maybe we need to pivot or maybe we need to delay this project or maybe we need to bump it up in a row or whatever. I need to reposition based on this new information. Why do leaders struggle, especially younger, newer leaders, not necessarily in age, but to the position? Why do they struggle so much with changing their mind? Is it ego? Is it a lack of confidence? Why do we feel like we always need to have the answer as a leader? Yeah, well, we have this problem in our, I would say, I mean, it's broad, right?

And if you look at, I mean, trends historically, you always have civilizations go through these phases of building up a sense of knowledge, right? And then we've had it, you know, in multiples, right? You have the internet, you have access to information, and we've leaned in the science of management, but also the science of functions, right, of expertise. And so, you know, when we talk about this in the book, it's like there's an expert model, right, that we'd like to lead with expertise, lead with competency. What happens in a world where information and knowledge has been democratized fully, as in you can go to Google, you can go to, you know, chat GPT and find answers to any question. So I'm not coming to a manager or a leader or a functional leader to really, you know, find the answers to X, Y, Z or all of it.

Maybe some particulars, right? And we still need vertical. We still need depth of vertical expertise. That doesn't change. But that's not the future. It's not the full answer, right? The best answer is going to be, hey, if those things are already there, and if we can get depth of perspective, what we really need to do is connect dots, right?

We need to connect dots and connect dots across our team and build essentially perpetual motion, right? In science, they talk about it can't be done. Well, in business, it can, but it's through people, right? Perpetual motion, you know, Tesla tried to create a perpetual motion machine. Da Vinci tried. For bio accounts, they failed. We don't know. We haven't seen those. right perpetual motion you know tesla tried to try to create a perpetual motion machine da vinci tried they well for by all accounts they failed we don't know we haven't seen those but what you can do in a team in a culture and you know at apple or pixar they call it brain trust is you build a team that can can wrestle with challenges they can have debates it's all

healthy approach. Best ideas win. And it's a situation where you're just constantly iterating, right, together and building new products and services and testing those. And what's more important in today's world where everything's changing all the time? This disruption that we've experienced over the past year or two weeks, right? It's not going away, right? We're going to see probably over the next

decade, just as much or more disruption that we've experienced. So how do you deal with that? It's less, it's less a linear approach of being in the proverbial canoe, just gently floating along versus like you're in a raft, a river raft, right? It's shaking and everything's moving. And then to your point that it's about being like like bruce lee would say right be like water yeah yeah i uh it's funny you bring up bruce lee i love bruce lee uh there's another quote that he has that i apply to leadership all the time which is uh the value of the cup is its emptiness. And I've shared this proverb on this show before, anecdote or whatever it's called.

In his book, he shares this story that he was told back when he was in China about a Zen master has a student approach him and wants to spend time with the Zen master. So they sit down and they each have a cup of tea in front of them and the student starts talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and finally the Zen master stands up and grabs the teapot and starts pouring tea into the student's cup until the cup overflows and the student jumps forward, what are

you doing? And he said, and this is where Bruce Lee got his quote from that he uses, that the value of the cup is the emptiness. You have to approach these situations. You may have an idea in your mind that you, I think we should go in X direction. But when you show up to the meeting, if you're only thinking about X, there could be 10 opportunities that you don't even hear because you've already determined the answer before listening to everyone there. And it's always been shocking to me, the people that want to just, well, you're only a receptionist, or you're only a salesperson. What do you know about service? Or, you know, you're in the accounting department. You know, what do you know about sales? you know you're in the accounting department you know what do you know about sales and it's like except maybe they do maybe they've bought something

before and have a feeling about the way that you're handling and to let those ideas fly away to me feels insane um you know is again i always come back to this idea of ego. Are leaders feeling territorial because of all the change? Like the standard best practice of what a leader does is starting to be changed. It's more dynamic. Is it I'm worried about losing my position? Am I worried about not adopt adapting. Sorry. Like, please, why? How do we break this down in a way that allows someone who is and maybe this is your framework and we can jump into that. But how do we break someone down who's sitting there going, you know if I'm not presented as strong and confident then people are gonna undermine me or come after my position right like I I think everyone's having these thoughts all the time and but we have to get past it so so how do we start to make those moves

yeah great question yeah I think first we have to be open to it I like your analogy of the cup, right? The negative space. We've studied the best leaders that are leading that co-creative future now and may have been doing it for years. The differences for them is they aren't out to flaunt their expertise, right? And not for ego reasons, right, either, to your point. In fact, they don't look at it like ego. And I think, you know, kind of the Zen, you know,

master kind of is a good analogy for this, right? Is that they're sitting back, they're asking powerful questions, they're listening, they're taking the time because they know there's also that potential energy that needs to turn kinetic, right? And that has way more power when they unlock it in people. Because that person or those people in the team, you know, they can start to spin the flywheel and things can start to move that would never otherwise happen if they were relying on the expertise of one person.

You know, that's the old, I said it's the old world. It's not even the currency that, or the kind of electric current that exists today, right? So to believe that that's true is actually, you know, it's a problem right out of the gate, right? People aren't, they're going to be bumping their head against the wall. And to assume that that's still true, and things are, you know, we know they're changing extremely fast. And that's not the best, that's not the only reason to do it it's like well because we're talking about macro changes and i think of it like if you're going to lead the future you know but there's there's there are teams that have been doing this for years and you look at like i mean on simple

terms it's look at look at bands right why do some bands come and go? I mean, having one big hit, that's kind of a big deal. But most bands will have one and they're gone, right? It's like they're five minutes of fame and it's over. This could be true of a lot of fields. But with the bands that have transcended time, right, over years or over decades, like the Beatles, the way they did it was the way we're talking about. They let their ego, you know, they pulled, it was ego off the table, building blocks

on the table, and they were building all the time. And the Beatles, when they split up, you know, they were good, but it was never the same, right? And you look at U2, they've transcended time. And, you know, they have, you know, constantly changed and you know they they have you know constantly changed you know and upgraded you know their work uh and you know i read you know bono's autobiography and he says this is so fascinating to me i think because it really gets to the heart of what we're talking about and there there are timeless truths to this principles that it's rooted in but he said you know when we started out as a band, we knew that it was about birth, life, death, and then rebirth. And that that was a cycle we were going to plan for,

right, with intention. And I think there's something about that in terms of a product, a service, right? Because we can get very, you know, stuck on or a way of doing things, right, that we assume that's the way. And that, yeah, I'd say that's been true of like their, their albums that, you know, have been hits you know, with the exception of discotheque, which they made a public apology for. But everything else, you know, you're like, wow, like how are they doing this transcend time? Well, we call it, we also, there's a notion here and they experience it.

I think the great bands do this as well. It's shared flow. The great teams in basketball, the great teams in any sport, the great teams in any company experience shared flow. A lot of times we talk about flow, right? You're creating art. You're playing sports. You're doing whatever you love that makes your heart sing. But what happens when that's shared with others and it's in unison

and you're creating this collective force, right, that's co-creative? You can unlock things that you've never done, right, and you couldn't possibly do as individuals. Yeah. What are the right questions or what is a question or a type of question that when we show up as a leader and we want to start developing this culture, say we don't have it today or we're just not intentional with it. What are some of the right questions or types of questions that we could scribble down on a notepad to show up at our next meeting for to start to bring this in, to start to establish this, to start to make it part of what we do? Yeah. First is embrace the notion of questions versus answers. Lead with a question.

We have a podcast called Lead with a Question. We actually inherited that principle from Ed Catmull at Pixar. He told us about his journey, and his was the typical, he had answers for everything. He his was the typical, you know, he had answers for everything. He's a smart guy, PhD. So when he was leading these teams, everybody come to him with answer, you know, questions, you fire off answers, but he realized, now it took him going on a meditation retreat for seven days,

encouraged by his wife. He did this and, uh, it changed him, right? After two or three days, it was like, and all you could do is ask questions and listen. That was the, those are the rules of the meditation retreat. And he said, it drove him, right? After two or three days, it was like, and all you could do was ask questions and listen. Those were the rules of the meditation retreat. And he said it drove him crazy. He wanted to quit, right? But it changed his life when he stayed into that. And it also changed him as a leader.

And so leading with a question is a powerful way to unlock meetings, right? Turn them or reimagine them, right? As brave conversations. Because how do you invite, how do you, you know, and having that empty space is important first, but how do you fill that? And how do you give people that space? You know, you could send a question

in advance of a meeting, right? A week in advance. They do this at Pixar. And, you know, Inside Out 2 is great proof of this. They have a brain trust that are rolling. You watch these movies, it's like, go so deep. Usually we talk about soft skills versus hard skills. You're like, okay, that debate.

But actually, we're talking about deep skills. You're building your core. When you build your core at a deep level and you're brave, you expand into the universe with other people because you understand the nature, kind of human nature better. So I'd say lead with questions and then in the conversations you're in, leading with questions. You know, that's, it's just, it's a great way to start with, start it out.

And then you said, you asked what questions specifically? Well, we have a set, a series of golden questions. This is amazing. We've actually tested these. You can ask. So if you're wondering like, hey, you know, what could spark something, right? If I want to change a conversation, if I want to change a relationship, try these, right? One golden question that I love is, and we tried it.

So we met somebody, I connected with a guy on LinkedIn, and he was asking for career advice. I was like, okay, i'll chat with him and i posed this question and it was simply this you know in the back of your mind in the back of your heart what's something unfulfilled that you'd still like to achieve and you know that opens people up It kind of creates a spell, right? But it gives people space to fill that cup, that shared cup. And this example, there's an engineer at a Silicon Valley company, and he went on for 45 minutes or an hour and just spilled kind of everything that was going on in his life.

I didn't even know the guy to begin with, but we were diving into his world. And we created a connection we started to build things together you know these are things that can be unlocked with the power of a question another one is what are you most excited about right now right and and in a meeting in a conversation a group with a team you know usually we tend to just play on the surface right and you know how was your weekend and he he's saying, no, that's okay. I think it's good to give people that initial space. But, you know, diving into these kinds of things,

and this could also mostly be one-on-one, we just create all kinds of different connections at a different level, right? A different depth. We think of trees, right? How do they operate? Well, on the surface, we look at them and we look and we say what I got to figure it out there's one there there's one there's one there actually the roots underneath are all intertwined and connected so there's an ecosystem and so why wouldn't we want to build that what happens when

you do right and what what does that unlock well we've seen the results of this and let's take brands you know shoe brands we studied the, you know, shoe brands. We studied comparing, you know, consumer perspective and culture. And these things are fully aligned so that, you know, when they invest in their culture, let's say, okay, and we just studied this, Nike, you know, Adidas versus like Asics and Skechers, for example. They've invested in their culture differently, Nike and Adidas. In fact, you know, on average, they're about 80% to 90% positive, their cultures. Asics and Skechers, 60% to 70%. Now they pose a question with our – we partnered with a team called Verve,

or a company called Verve, and they asked consumers the question, what shoes – essentially like getting at this heartbeat of the culture, but the experience with the brand itself. You know, what shoes make you feel like you belong the most? And their answer was, you know, 80 to 90% Nike and Adidas, 60 to 70% Skechers and Asics. This is fascinating because the same things that are happening internally to the companies are happening externally. Now, notice the difference, though, in the impact of revenues. So the difference between that 20% to 30% is over 4x. In some cases, 10x, right?

Some quarters. So it's massive. So what I just heard you say, just so I have this in my head, is that the internal enjoyment of working for a brand mirrors the consumer connection to that brand. So the companies that have great cultures where the people feel empowered and they enjoy working and challenged and all those kind of things, they're simultaneously receiving the same kind of feedback from their consumers because it plays through. The way the customer service person answers the phone, the way the marketing person puts the language together, just it all flows through in terms of the enjoyment and satisfaction and fulfillment that someone's getting from that particular brand and connection. And while and then that actually leads to not percentage increases, but actually multiples

of increase in revenue to the companies that are skewing towards the higher side. That's right. That's incredible. I mean, guys, if you're listening to this, think about what Chris just described. And we spend so much time crafting marketing messages and sales hooks and lead funnels and whatever your business is, whether it's D2C or service or B2B whatever it is yet if as leaders we just spent all our time creating a company not not a ping pong table good culture but a culture where people are actually challenged and fulfilled and felt like they were heard that that immediately applies to the product that you're putting out and probably answers most of the questions

that you have about those things to begin with That is absolutely incredible. That is that's incredible Yeah, well you might say to like well, that's Nike. You know or that's Apple. That's Pixar That could be true except that we've also worked with smaller teams smaller companies right startups Midsize smaller and I'll give you an example where i work with with a client he's got a co-founder got a team about 100 150 people and he says you know they're about 15 million dollar business you want you say what's your goal i want to go to 50 to 45 million right

in three years and then exit that's a decent goal okay um Okay. Do your people know that? We also asked, oh, what do you mean? Well, you said that they feel like, well, they're not committed. It's like, what? He realized, oh, wait a minute. Okay. Yeah, I guess they do know that. So there's a connection there, right?

You're on a beach, you know, Simponio Pina Colada in Kiki West. They're seeing you, you know, mentally, right? You're on a beach, you know, sipping your pina colada in Kiki West. They're seeing you, you know, mentally, right? Now, of course, he's doing work, but the goal, that's his focus. Like, that's his, the North Star that he had is not their North Star. Like, they're not going to benefit like that from, you know, doing their work. Maybe they get some stock, who knows, but not a lot. So, or comparatively to him. So, the question became question became well how can you look at this differently it's not about okay you know you can still have an exit strategy we find but what if you build that perpetual motion and by the way if you ask any of these people they've actually been asked

so steve jobs if we had him on the show or you know we have to get him on the other side but yeah well right they say what's your favorite product you've ever worked on right or your best product what's your best movie what's your best this right most people would pick wild toy story or iphone right of course these are amazing now they say the culture right why because the culture is the perpetual motion machine that's producing those things the better ones every time so this guy we partner with him we said zoom out let's think about that relationship with your co-founder he's because at first it's like hey do some team building with my team now let's let's zoom out what are the first principles of your future culture right now i'm talking like

this is the uh you know interstellar version of of your culture are you coming off the delorean right 10 years 20 years years, 30 years from the future. And what are people saying about that? What do they feel? What do you observe? Oh, people love what they do. We're high growth, right? This, you know, it's just unbelievable success that we're seeing this company. Okay. Focus on that and, and build your brain trust where you shape these first principles. And I'm talking about first principles as in, you know, you're going to land, do a self-landing rocket like SpaceX. You know, it's not just what materials do you need, right?

Aluminum, some other parts, and this and that. It's like, no, actually, the way they approach that, or Elon Musk approaches that and the team is to say, what are the first principles of accomplishing this right which is we got to deal with gravity right we have to deal with there are certain materials that work and that don't you know we have to deal with forces right newton's laws all these things so those are the first principles and the the interesting part is ryan is that and for everybody it's like most leaders most entrepreneurs haven't wrestled with these questions at all.

And that's okay. I mean, there's an upside to that. Because I think we're all asking, we are asking the question is, we do, we all want to work in places that we love. Yeah. Right? We all want to be in those experiences where you feel something different, where you feel like you're doing the work, the best work of your life, right? Where your heart sings. And so that was the challenge to this leader and we did some coaching over the course of a year get this he

calls me about a year later we launched our website brave core Co and my friend actually pings me my co-author Ian Clausen or and he says hey have you been on the website yeah no hey look on there and Tim Cook had just downloaded he just joined you know download our ebook and was on our website you know I did some work at Apple there and you know he was aware apparently but that's that was cool I get a call right I said that screenshot of that's this client and he pings me. He's like, hey, can you talk right now?

Yeah. He said, hey, that culture work we did, it's been transformative because people love their work. We're high growth. It's unlike anything I've seen before. He goes, and by the way, we just had a million-dollar day yesterday. So they went from $15 million to $150 million a year in one year. They went public as a company. They sold. Now he, you know, does a lot of things, you know, spends a lot of time with his family and buys houses in Hawaii. But he has a culture that's a perpetual motion machine.

So he's proud of what's there. He's still an advisor to it and just loves seeing what they've built. And by the way, the people that felt uncommitted, they love being there. They don't have a nutrition problem. They have a problem of they get the best talent. They just got to sort through who they want. Yeah. Well, whenever people ask me questions about hiring and culture and stuff like that, one of the first questions I ask them is like, would you want to work there? Would you think about what your people do? Would you want that job? Like the way it's set up?

And, you know, sometimes the answer is yes. Sometimes no, it all depends on what's going on. But like, I think we, we get so caught up in whatever our personal goal is or the big goal that we have that we don't slow down and go well I have a sales team but they all hate working the environments not good the tools not good I haven't trained them enough I haven't answered their questions we don't have Reese whatever whatever the things are they're they're hating their job in my mind they're just seven salespeople, you know, salesperson one through seven, and I'm looking at their numbers.

But would you want to go sit in that seat? Like if you were a salesperson at that point in your career, would you want to sit there? And if the answer is no, like right away we know that something's wrong. You know, I listen to the – I like to delineate between listening to books and reading them i i hate when people say they read a book but they really listen to the audio i don't know why but i was listening to the uh walter isaacson's uh book on elon musk and particularly to the rockets there's this question that elon would ask that it just has always captured me. Like, especially when they were,

the early days of SpaceX with the rockets, they, you know, they tried to buy rockets, a Russian rocket, and they tried, you know, they didn't have the ability to generate their own rocket at that time, so they were trying to find rockets from other places. And they immediately ran into hiccups based on what you were describing

around the realities of the situation and what they were trying to achieve. he would say he would he would explain to the head of engineering what needed to happen as an outcome and he would get an answer often well it doesn't do that or it can't do that and he would respond what what if it could? Like, explain to me what you would need if it could do that thing. And that question, it drove so many of the innovations and tweaks and things that they then, you know, that was actually what spurred the, when they created their own rocket plant to manufacture their own rockets, that was actually the question that created that because he kept asking what if it could. They kept telling him what they needed to actually make what he needed a reality, and they eventually just decided we're going to have to create this ourselves.

So, like, you think about that, his initial plan, and this is exactly what you're explaining, his initial plan was to never manufacture his own rockets. That was never part of the original plan. But by asking questions, as you described, by listening to the answers, the inevitable and only solution was they had to manufacture themselves because literally it didn't exist in the world what he needed at least all the parts so how do you get to as you describe your client with 15 to 150 instead of his you know five-year goal of 45 or whatever it was um all the iterations changes improvements whatever that were necessary to make that much of a leap forward could only happen by by believing that you don't have all the answers and leading with questions. I just, guys, this is incredibly powerful stuff.

So in the book, you outline these six principles. And guys, I'll have links to all this stuff in the show notes and YouTube. And Chris will obviously direct you at the end as well if you just want to go there directly. So don't feel like you're going to miss this stuff. But I want to end our conversation around this idea of our mission. This is a place where, you know, specifically talking to culture talking to alignment like you described it perfectly the the the mission as seen by your client when he first came to you right he's working hard but he's doing it on a beach and he's trying to get the 45 right

that mission is completely misaligned or maybe doesn't exist to everyone else on the team or most of the rest of the team. So we start to ask questions. We go back to first principles. What is the actual implementation look like at a high level, right? Like what, how do we, how do we start once we kind of know what we want our culture to be, how do we then start to align our people to that mission and that culture? Yeah, that's a great question. And I will say about the book, and I agree with you, like audio versus reading, we've got all options for our book. We've got all options for our book. We've got audio version. We've got the regular – and we have actually a lit video book that came out recently that has a lot of visual that just captures the essence of the book in about 30 minutes. So that's something else to be able to do.

Wow, that's pretty cool. But yeah, to your question, I think when we talk about – so there's two principles that come to mind from kind of the philosophy of co-creation, which is create context. Oftentimes we think about creating content and, you know, and there's a lot of opinions about this, just produce more content, more, more, more, more, more. But what we see in greatness and the best leaders, the most co-creative leaders, the co-creators that are really shaping the future, that they're creating context, right? Steve Jobs said that the storyteller has the most power, right, over the future. And that's true. And so how are you, what story are you telling? What story are you telling

yourself as a leader? So part of it is being clear about that. You know, once you've set the tone with leading with questions, building off first principles, but they're custom to your future. So those first principles, and you're co-creating them with others. So you build this engine of a brain trust, and this is all ensuring the key people are in the room or the Zoom room, and you keep that vehicle in place. The perpetual motion of that brain trust moving forward. But the key, the biggest key in all of this, I'd say is you live it. So you live these principles and what starts to happen is because culture is what is, is yes, it's, it's big and it's what an organization,

you know, as an organism, as a, as a person, if you call it a culture, how it lives, how it breathes, what, what it does, you know, how it lives, how it breathes, what it does, how it acts. But really, it all starts, especially this is the power of a founder, right? An entrepreneur is you set that tone, right? I coached Michael Dell, CEO at Dell, and he was transitioning from, I'd say, a rough version of himself, very tactically oriented to scale, right? And being more, having a broader view of the business, a lot of things we're talking about. And that shift required a different mindset,

a different approach. But he was really open, right, to those changes. And I think if you can be open to what those changes are, you just are constant reflection, right? Steve talks about, he talks about the mirror. We talk about the mirror test in the book and that's key on a regular basis but then as far as far as driving towards an objective you have that north star and that's a drum beat that goes you know constant through the organization i think one of the biggest parts too is when you look at this

future the future principles of that experience right that what it feels like to be in the culture you want to experience then you have to ask yourself the hard questions what am i doing right now or today or this past week or the past few months or year that is incongruent with that what are the things in my own habits or patterns of the team that aren't that don't are working towards that objective or those objectives and that's what really follow true north is you set the true north right it's sticking to that you have to be willing to make the sacrifices to shave off those things and this is one of the hardest things to do because it's painful

right sometimes and it involves sometimes a sense of rebirth where you're saying you know what that rough version of me you know but i think of it like it's sometimes a sense of rebirth where you're saying, you know what, that rough version of me. But I think of it like it's like a rough stone rolling. It's rolling down the mountain. But the parts that are chipping off, you don't really need them anyway. Right. Look at Michelangelo. He goes in, he gets a piece of marble. Yeah. It's like, well, you don't just, you know, you hit one time and it turns into this masterpiece. You chip off everything that's not. And so as to become essentially super leaders of the future or co-creators that are inspirational

and are the kind of quality that leaders were talking about, and I'm talking about both the impact of the results you want to have, but also the innovation engine that makes it legend, right? Is that you're willing to maybe ask the inverted question. To your point about the inverted question with the space in the cup is maybe it's not about what do I need to become? What are the characteristics I need to become as a leader? It's what things do I need to shave off, right? In comparison to this beautiful future of these first principles that we've imagined,

what it can be, right? This culture that is truly amazing. And that's the difference because then that becomes the bridge, right? The bridge is, wow, and people will notice, right? And even if somebody's been kind of an a-hole in the past, right? I mean, we talked about Steve. That was brutal, right? And the stuff that's been kind of an a-hole in the past, right? I mean, we talk about Steve. That was brutal, right? And the stuff that Hollywood loves to talk about and all these bad boy behaviors, but that's not what got him into the future, to your point, at scale, right, with Apple or with Pixar.

It was all about compassion and empathy, things that, by the way, he learned on a personal level, right? He got married, settled down, had kids. And not that everybody has to do that, but I think the point is that there are a few key building blocks to this. One is, because we ask ourselves, what is culture? How do we influence it? Well, and you can actually see these just a high-level example in a few leaders that embody this. So one is shared wisdom. That's leading with questions.

That's a building block for the future tim cook does this extremely well he sits back he asks questions he listens deep empathy right which is essentially compassion and you're making others the mission it's a selfless force satya nadela microsoft does this extremely well right he learned it on a personal level his wife uh great example their son had cerebral palsy, spent a lot of time with his son, and this transformed him, right? And, you know, we all have experiences that we can tap into, but usually we create barriers or firewalls to that to get to from private to public. The reality is we've got to break those down, and you bring those experiences,

and you bring, I mean, let's call it, what is it? You know, love, right? What's the most brave thing to do? Is it be compassionate? And the last one is being powered by principles. And a great example of this is Jensen Wong at NVIDIA. It's not just the fact that they're killing it, right? And they're changing, you know, the entire industry or defining this industry of AI.

And they're standing up billion dollar businesses overnight. It's the fact that like the guy sits in a room with the Stanford students, and he says, I'd love to see you guys suffer. You know, they've been through a lot of kind of entitled experiences. And it's not that he's saying that because like, hey, I want to just see pain. And you know, there's this notion of like, no pain, no gain. I don't think that's the future. The future is, we all have enough pain, we have to go looking for it. But if you turn it into power, and his point is, there's joy and suffering, because suffering will come. But you also choose those experiences, like with the SpaceX example, these things that are extremely hard, right? These impossible challenges.

But then you just figure out, well, what are the obstacles? Rather than saying it's impossible or it's not, what are the obstacles? And you just delete them and you're there, right? You've just done the impossible. And they're doing it all the time. So I think those building blocks of shared wisdom, deep empathy, being powered by principles like sacrifice and like joy in suffering uh is it's so powerful right it's contrarian paradox but it's powerful

the book is brave together i couldn't recommend it enough i think everyone who's listening if you're not following along with Chris's work, this is the future. This is the roadmap. Like, I just, I so align with what you're doing. I had never put it into the context that you did. And, dude, I'm just so happy that we've had a chance to meet and chat. And, dude, you got a fan for life in me. So I appreciate it. I appreciate your time.

Where's the best place for people to connect with you and go deeper down the rabbit hole? Thanks so much, Ryan. It's been great, this conversation, and really appreciate it. Yeah, so LinkedIn is a great place to connect. Bravecore.co. We have a lot of resources there. People can download the proclamation or the letter to ego. They can download snippets from the book or articles. Uh, there's a lot of places, you know, the book's

been highlighted, uh, Forbes, fast company, uh, next big idea club has a good kind of take on, on the book. Uh, it's a shorthand version of it. Um, that's Malcolm Gladwell and Adam Grant, you know, part of that. So I think just, you know, love to connect. We, we love, uh, you know, I love, you know, hear people's stories and, and how we can be better co-creators, lead the future. Awesome. Appreciate you, Brad. Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look. Thank you for listening to the Ryan Hanley show. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts.

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