The Ryan Leak Podcast - Agenda-less

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

We took a hiatus, and now we're back. Season 2 is us going through Ryan Leak's book Chasing Failure and giving insights on how followers can embrace risk-taking in their work environments. In this episode, we talk about the value you can add to an organization when you show up without an agenda. 

Welcome to followership with Ryan Leak, a podcast designed to equip followers with the tools they need to succeed in the workplace. You might be following or working for a good, a bad, or a mediocre leader. But the good news is the type of leader you have doesn't have to determine a type of follower. You can become. Ladies and gentlemen, we certainly did take a hiatus. I had a book come out called Chasing Failure. I have another book coming out. I can't tell you all the details about that.

But stay tuned. We got some really great content. I'm excited about next year and been speaking a lot, being coaching a lot, been doing a lot. And you know what? Maybe you're like me and you're one of those individuals who thought the pandemic was over, except it wasn't. So I've been a long year for a lot. lot of people and I am in the business of doing my very best to add value to the lives of other people and so so we did take a little bit of a hiatus from this particular podcast I have another

one called Lifecast that we have done some pre-recording for and so we have been in the booth going we we've got to fire up the grill again on followership and this is season two of followership, helping followers figure out what to do in their environments, regardless of the kind of leader that they have. And this is a podcast all about ownership and you really owning your part in an organization. And so this particular season, my, my dear friend Lacey Stenson has interviewed me based off of my book chasing failure and has asked some really, really great questions each chapter. And so today's episode, So we are going to look at chapter one to go ahead and listen to this conversation.

Ryan, you open your book with the statement, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was just curious, as you've interviewed so many followers and leaders, you know, is there an age in which you think people stop using the word grow up and start feeling like they're no longer dreaming? or do you think that's just kind of a word that we reserve only for children? You know, it's so funny. I started laughing when you asked a question because I still feel like I'm growing up. I just turned 35 in August.

And I'm still figuring some things out. I think a lot of people have arrived at some positions, but would still admit if you really got them to be very, very, very, very authentic about how they feel, that there's a lot that they're still figuring out. And so I don't know that you can put an age on having desires in dreams and striving to level up wherever you are in your career. I think the minute you feel like you've arrived,

the minute you feel like I can't dream anymore, is the minute that you become irrelevant. And we see that all across the world, really, of people getting to a place of irrelevance that they didn't really see coming. And I think that's because they stopped really being a kid. They stopped learning. They stopped putting themselves in that position of going,

man, anything is possible. And so I think having sort of that childlike mindset of going, I can learn something new today. And I refuse to plateau. I think it's very, very important. And so I feel like a big kid. Me and a friend were texting yesterday, and he's got four kids. I've got two. And he's like, don't you still feel like we're in college?

I said, I feel like we're kids that had kids. and we're still trying to figure it out. And so I don't know that you can put a cap on that. I think that's an attitude, that's a, there I say, even a spirit that I think each and every one of us can carry of saying, you know, I'm a lifelong learner, and I'm always going to be trying to figure out a way that I can level up in some way, shape, or form.

Mm-hmm. I think that's so good. One of the things that I love that you bring reflection on is, like, what kids do, right? to stalling out your learning because they make us busier or they naturally put some time constraints around us or we start to dream and then we think, you know, when I get married, I'll do something different or we'll have more time or we'll travel more and then often marriage can slow you down because it puts some responsibility and accountability and maybe some

financial pressure too. But one of the things I love is in your book you talk about one of your son's talking about what he wants to be when he grows up and he talks about, I think he lists like five or six, and especially knowing your kids, there's such a many version of you and your wife put together. But he not only lists five jobs, I mean, you know, he lists multiple competencies. On one hand, he's like fighting fires. Yes. He's Captain America. And then he also wants to be an astronaut, which is like solving space and complex problems. But it's too good. But as we think about growing into the workplace, when do you think we stop or why do you think we stop thinking that we can have multiple skill sets, really, because that's ultimately what

your kid is dreaming about, right? Is that I can be smart enough to understand space and the physics involved. But at the same time, I can be fit enough to run up 100 flights of stairs, right? And I can be a kid enough to be Black Panther. Yeah. Yeah, I love his freedom and I'm almost envious of it. and I fight for it as well to continue to have it even as a, I like to call myself a wannabe adult. And so I think it's important now more than ever that, especially for people that are trying to find their way in an organization, you've got to be multi-talented.

You've got to be able to have multiple tools in your tool belt. You've got to be able to add that. you to your organization in a myriad in a variety of ways. And if you're only one faceted, if you're, if you can, if you've only got one trick, well, you're just, you're just limiting yourself. And so I think that where we are in 2021 and the 21st century, you can always be adding something to your tool belt. always.

There are so many certifications out there. There's so many ways to get certified and this for that, that you're just, again, you're adding a new skill set. You're consistently learning something that can truly add value to the organization. One of the things that I used to do just to make sure that I was adding value in some of our Tuesday meetings when I was on, on an executive team. Well, a lot of books come out on Tuesdays.

Sure. You know, the newest books come out on Tuesday. So what I would do is I wake up at five, download it on Audible, listen to it two times fast, and by the time I showed up to that executive meeting, I had the latest and greatest book completely listened to already.

And so what I did was, even though it wasn't a power play, even though it wasn't me trying to, you know, assert some, make some type of move in the meeting, I held information that the rest of the group, 99% of them had not either A heard of or B had time to like, dude, didn't that book just come out? Yeah, this morning.

And, but I've added value to the meeting. I have more data than the rest of the group. And so I think it's important that you put yourself in a position to add value to the room. And sometimes it's just a matter of just being first. Because most people in that room are really smart. They're great leaders. They're going to read that same book someday. Someday they're going to read that book.

And that's great. But if you read it first and you bring out the points first, you're the person that brought that information, that data, that value, that stat, that survey. Here's what's happening in the world around us. You're bringing it to the table. You're making yourself more valuable. Even though everyone else in that room is going to do it later, you know, there's something about being early and being the first one to do it. And so when I talk to a lot of followers and a lot of team members that are trying to add value to their leaders, to their organization, it's not just readers or leaders. Sometimes it's first listeners are the leaders.

Just because you did it first. Yeah, that's right. I don't know if you grew up in the era where, like, Pizza Hut had the reader program, but I feel like reading reading. Yes. I feel like it's. Oh, my gosh. I forgot it. with early, early readers.

That's awesome. I forgot about that. Those were the good old days. Those were the good days. It reminds me, you know, one thing I love about just even getting to know you is you challenge me in so many of your, just your audience and people that know you to think about the difference between ordinary habits and extraordinary habits. And I think that book example is just such a great example of that, Ryan, because so many of us

are reading. It can actually get really fatiguing to read and feel like you're like checking off this list. But I love just understanding why you're reading, right, and understanding the timing of it. And yeah, that's good. That's really good. What would your advice be for followers of just how to be brave and bold in some of those decisions versus maybe waiting in line for a performance review or something where a manager or a leader is telling you what the next step is in your career. Even advice for your son, how do you just maintain this attitude of bravery?

You know, for me, I didn't have much of an option growing up. You know, my dad had a stroke when I was in fifth grade and immediately there was this, I got to grow up. fast. I didn't have the luxury of, you know, there are times where I have to play video games as an adult because I didn't do it as a kid. Because immediately I started working.

Immediately, you know, I felt like an entrepreneur at 12. I'm like, can I mow my friend's lawns? And can I earn a wage that way? Like, I instantly became an adult. And so I think that that was that was something that was very, very, I think it instilled in me this thing of like, man, I don't, I don't really have the luxury of not taking risk, if that makes sense. Like it's like, for me, it was like, man, this is, this is the only way that you're, you're, you're, going to you're going to

see anything really happen in your life. You know, I love what Jim Rohn says. It's funny. He says,

strangely, life gets harder when you try to make it easy. Exercising might be hard, but never moving makes life harder. Uncomfortable conversations

are hard, but avoiding every conflict is harder. Mastering your craft is hard. But having no skills is harder. Easy has a cost.

And so I think sometimes we think, well, if I take a risk, if I'm brave, if I step out and say this or, you know, what could that cost me? I'm going, well, you could say that the other way. What if you say nothing? That can also get you fired too. Because you say nothing. Yeah. You added no value. And you've been saying nothing for you.

years. And all of a sudden, when an organization starts making cuts, they're going, well, who's added the most value? They're definitely not bringing up the people in the organization that have, well, who has said nothing lately? Who's done nothing lately? Who's taken no risk? Who are safe people? I've never heard a leader ask that question. Yeah, that's a good point. Think about how much harder it is for introverts. Oh, and I want to encourage introverts because I think it's been introverts. It's like you're not just asking them to be brave.

It's almost sometimes listening to people like me, introverts are like, you're asking me to become a different person. Right. But I think that there is a way to be authentically yourself and still be brave. And I don't think that, brave is for extroverted people. I don't believe that courageous is the antonym of introversion.

I think that you can be a brave, introverted person. And sometimes that just means shooting an email. Sometimes that just means sharing an idea. Sometimes that means sticking up for somebody. Who was wrong? You know, the other day I saw, I was watching a sports talk, sports talk show. And the moderator, who really never shares their opinion on different matters, they're just a moderator, they're just a host. And I was so proud of her, she called out the main talent of the show.

and my first thought was she just lost her job. Yeah. This was my first thought. I went, wow, good for you. But she's still on the air. And all she said was that's not fair. That's not fair. I disagree.

That's not fair. And I can't speak to her introversion or extroversion and how much she's doing for TV, you're not doing for TV. But I just thought, what a brave moment. Way to put your career on the line. And I can't speak to the rewards of her risk, but I can speak to the authenticity of who she remained to be. Right.

We know she remained herself. Because I can only imagine how many other moderators, how many other people in her situation, would have just said, why risk my career to be myself? It's not that serious. It's just one segment that most people will forget about

in the future anyways. But she had a moment, and I just thought, I hope we have more moments like that where leaders do have accountability where there are people in the organization that can say, you know what? I disagree with that.

That's not okay. we can't speak about people that way. We don't know that person's intention because we tell stories that way all the time, especially when someone isn't in the room or isn't on the Zoom. We go, well, this is what they were thinking and they've been doing this for a long time.

It's like, well, how do you know that? Well, you actually don't know that. You assume that. You get that feeling, but we might have to give someone the benefit of the doubt. And so sometimes it's sticking up for yourself. sometimes it's sticking up for someone else.

And sometimes it's just something very, very subtle. But I think I want to encourage people to be brave and continue to be yourself in that. It doesn't have to be boisterous. It doesn't have to be extroverted. I think that a person can truly be brave and still be themselves at the same time. That's so good. I think it also speaks to just this like responsibility and power we have as either other leaders or managers or leaders to think about how we support and follow people

well, while going after our own dreams, but also pulling out and listening to the people around us of what their dreams are. And I think such a true example of this is in marriage, right? Understanding while you're dating, it's almost like you're in this flirtatious, super supportive stage where you're like, you know, the first one to do the dishes. and like you're just, you're like crushing killing, like cooking meals for each other. And then you get married. And it's so easy to make it about you and your dreams and your job.

And what you need your spouse to support that we often forget about asking our spouse or kids another, it's another great wave when you become a parent, right? You're so much of our conversations with our kids are on the way to school or in the pickup line. But it's when they're the chatiest. And it's when you get to ask them about their dreams. and, you know, if they want to be in soccer practice. But can you speak a little bit to what you've seen and what you coach people through

and ways of thinking about how to support people by both following their dreams and also helping other people discover what it is or at least voice out loud what they're working on? Totally. No, and I think that's a fantastic question. I think one of the things that I'm constantly talking to many people about whether it's one-on-one with the client or on a stage, you know, speaking.

This idea of dreams, and I'm in the dream space, I write dream content, goal content, if you will. I think one of the biggest problems with a lot of our dreams is we're the only ones in it. We're the only ones in it. And if your dream includes only you, it won it's not going to last very long and number two I hope it doesn't come true

I hope your dream does not come true because you're going to be the only one in it and you're not going to be able to share it with anybody else that's right it's a pretty sad dream if you really really think about it and

and I think we have to realize that and not in a facetious way or even in a braggadocious way, but I think we're all in somebody else's dream. Let me explain that. If you dream of building a big company, well, someone is dreaming of working at a big company. Someone wants to work for you at some point in that dream.

So our dreams are interconnected in some way, shape, or form. And so when you, especially when you talk about followers, Like there is something about like in marriage and at work about laying down your thing for somebody else's thing. Yeah. There is something about being agendaless. Agendalist. I had never even heard the word agendaless until the other day. I was getting ready to speak for this large company.

time I'm interviewing a company that's having me speak, we're doing, you know, sort of the pre-event call or whatever, I always ask them the same questions. Who's the best speaker you've ever had and why? And who's the worst speaker you've ever had and why? I want to make sure I avoid the landmines and I want to make sure that I'm like, okay, what won before? If you have a winner from before, I want to copy and pay. I'm a learner, right? So, So I asked that question to this company the other day. And you don't know what their answer was? They said the best figure that they had ever had was Doc Rivers.

Okay. Doc Rivers. And I went, oh, that makes sense. And then they interrupted me. And they said, but it's not for the reason that you think. It's not because he's Doc Rivers. I mean, yes, he is Doc Rivers. And he's great and he's known.

And, you know, Doc Rivers is Doc Rivers. But they said, what stuck out to us about him, is that he was agendaless. He was agendaless. He had made it about them. Somebody that does not have to do that. Somebody that could make it all about him because he's Doc Rivers.

And he's got a championship ring. And he's one of the most notable NBA coaches of the last two decades. But he was a, this is how they described him. He didn't describe himself this way. This is how they described agendaless. And so part of, there's something that I want to encourage people on today's episode with is, what would it look like to be agendaless?

Because here's what I know about every single person we interact with. We can feel when somebody has an agenda. That's right. That's right. We can feel it. We can feel when a. It's about them or it's about us. We can feel that.

And we all want to work with somebody that is agendaless. And we didn't even know that until a couple of moments ago when I said it. I mean, when I said it, I guarantee you, somebody was listening to it going, man, I just got out of a meeting and it was full of agenda. Or I just got out of a meeting and it was agendaless. That was a group of people that showed up and said, you know, I want to give my best to this organization. And you know what? I'm going to remove what's in it for me.

I'm here to add value to someone else. And what I've learned is the more agendaless we can become, the more we can make our work and our careers about other people, we actually find ourselves in much more valuable seats because people like keeping agendaless people around. they like man there's something about like

that team player that's consistently they don't bring up well this is what's in it for me and this is how it affects my bonus they're consistently thinking of others they're consistently supporting others

and I think when you bring that into a marriage bring that into a dating relationship you bring that into a team environment it's a pretty powerful thing that you can see where you're going. You know what? Part of my agenda today is actually to help everybody else with theirs. And those are the type of people I think we all want to work with. So I think those are the type of people we should aspire to be of just going,

today's not all about my thing. Today's not all about my company. Today's not, I think it's waking up with an attitude that says, you know, I'm going to be agenda. Yeah, and think about how much destruction that requires. Like you're almost undoing a lot of the learning, especially as you age through the corporate system a bit, because the first thing that happens when you wake up, for those of us, like myself, that can be sometimes undisciplined is we grab the cell phone, right?

And it's the first thing we do is we get hit in the face with our task list, either by email or by text or calendar. Calendar or Slack, something. And so to your point, it's only, it's only, it's only, you know, almost hard unless you meditate on it and you reframe your morning to go into an 8 o'clock not thinking about how many tasks can I crush before on my right crushing my to do list before the lunch hour. I mean, that's a real reframing of of the mind and you kind of get one shot at it by your disposition on your first Zoom call of the day. And we tend to all just jump on the call

into an actual agenda, you know, versus right when the pandemic hit or when you're in a culture that cares about employees or has some authentic kind of family value. The first question is, how's your morning, right? Especially during the first week of kids going back to school, you would waste 10 minutes building into the relationship, learning about how the morning's going or how the workout was or something. But what are reframing of the mind, Ryan? That's really powerful. Yeah, you know, I think it's one of the things that has helped me remain brave is helping other people be brave. You know, I talk about in the book

about this idea of jumping out of an airplane and the idea that this researcher, you know, she had her patients jump out of an airplane over and over again. They jump out, get to the ground, get back on the plane, jump out again. and she just did this over and over again, and she measured their stress, each jump.

And first jump, stress through the roof. Third jump, you know, their stress was on par with somebody that was simply running late to work. Right. Well, I just tried to like, I feel like I'm always jumping out of the airplane. I feel like most people, when they catch me in a hallway or off a stage or anything,

it's like they're catching me in the middle of the air. Like I just jumped out of the airplane. I haven't even hit the ground yet. I'm still wondering if I'm going to fall flat on my face. But I have also found that when I help other people jump out of the airplane, I get company. It's not as lonely. Does that make sense?

So part of like encouraging people to just do some really crazy things, you know, I think, you know, for some people, they'll be like, well, Ryan, I'm not an aneagram three, okay? I'm not a natural entrepreneur. I'm not a self-starter. I can't just wake out of bed and write a book or just create content. You know, I'm not you. And I'm like, but you are you.

So what's the most brave version of you? And what does that look like? And I just keep pushing people. Just do stuff. And it's amazing, like, how you find community in that. Because now it's like, you're the one that pushed them out of the airplane. and they're like, okay, so how does my parachute work again? And how does it?

I'm like, I pulled a parachute before a couple of things. And so I found that some of my most enjoyable conversations are helping other people jump out of an airplane or put together their first workshop or put together a book outline because it is so scary. It is so scary. But when I'm helping somebody else do it, it's not nearly as scary. and I think all of us have to have a section or portion of our life that is other people focused. I think that's very, very important that there should be some part of your week, your day, your month, your quarter, that it's like, you know what?

This is not about me because everyone in your organization and family can feel when it's all about you or if if it's at least sometimes about them. My son last night, he literally pulled me into my wife's office.

Okay. So he's like, Dad, come with me. I'm like, where are we going? Where are we going? And so he pulls me into my wife's office. He sits in my wife's office chair and there's this little like

baby stool in front of the desk. And he said, can you have a seat? And I'm like, and a part of me was thinking, no, you're six years old. And you don't get to tell me, you know,

the part of me had that, but then it was like, you know what he was doing? He was asking, can it be about me for just 30 seconds? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I felt it.

And I sit at this desk, he has a binder there. I'm like, if you were watching it on mute, you would have thought he was giving me a 360 review on my performance over the last year as a father. Yeah, he had a binder. And so he opened,

he opened the binder. He's going page by page. In this binder are drawings that he has had for, I don't know how long, okay? Just a bunch of his art. And so he gets to this page and on the page are these drawings of Flash, Batman, Superman. And I'm like, uh-huh, uh-huh. And he goes, so a couple questions for you that.

I go, yeah? He goes, have you seen them? I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, they're somewhere in this house. Somebody has to know where my characters are. These are my Legos. I drew my leg. Have you seen them?

And it was just like, Ryan, be in his world. Yeah, just be in it. Yeah. Just be all about the drawings and getting to the bottom of the investigation. So I think whether at home or at work or both, I think we all have to have something where we're going,

yeah, we've got our goals, but I think we also have to have, the wherewithal to realize that we're also a part of somebody else achieving their goals. And so I want to make sure that I'm playing my part in other people's worlds as well. Yeah, I think that's so powerful. I've heard you use this language, though I know you use it quite often, is the difference between surviving and dreaming. And I think that's what you just described, right,

is surviving parenthood or surviving fatherhood after a long day of work. it's a lot. And it doesn't mean that we need to feel guilty that just trying to get through, you know, event to event after a long day of work isn't enough. But when you can find people or passion to get you to flip over to the dreaming side, I think it creates this joy and this happiness that we all long for, right? Which is ironic because it's why we're reading books and it's why we're listening to podcast. And so much of it is exactly what you just said, which is like being in the investigation of the century, right? Solving the world's biggest mystery.

Oh, yeah. Just being in it. And it's so hard to do. But I think it's a good reminder of surviving versus dreaming. Totally. Totally, totally. So did we figure it out? Like, where are the Legos?

It's a great question. We moved to NBA 2K22 pretty quickly. So I don't know if that was a disjured. The reality is the kid has more Legos than, you know, at this point, we're at the Lego store and he's bored. So he has all of them. His grandparents spoil him. And so it's like, dude, they're somewhere.

There's somewhere in this vicinity for sure. That's so good. Good. Well, maybe before we close this episode down, can I leave you with one kind of heavy-hitting question that I think is good for both our followers? but also challenges our leaders just a little bit. Yeah, let's do it. So, you know, most people earn either new responsibilities,

greater accountability, new titles. Often we get like financial incentives, more comp, or just some equity along the way. But when we become successful, how can a follower embrace this sense of failure or vulnerability of admitting what is scary and where they just need extra lines of support or extra lines of grace, you know, while they're leveling up.

Because that's a pretty strange dichotomy, which is, you know, being vulnerable and willing to fail while you're also very ambitious and you're doing it publicly in the arena of performance reviews or right now, like you said, when organizations are thinking about who to promote or who to move around an organization. What would your advice? What do you tell people? Yeah. So there's two trains of thought here.

There's one that says, all right, well, um, What's the herd doing? So the herd is doing everything in their power to look good in front of the boss. And they're doing everything to hide every mistake, every weakness, every flaw. Here's the funny side, because you and I have been on the leadership side of quite a few organizations. so we know how leaders think. That's right. The funny thing about everyone in this rat race

trying to hide all of their flaws and mistakes is, secretly, the leaders already know. We already know. We all already know. And so when your yearly review comes up, let's say your yearly review is June, okay? And you do this egregious, offensive, people don't like being around you thing,

whatever it is that you're trying to keep everyone in the dark on. We knew in August. We may not tell you until next June, but we knew in August who you were. We knew that. So my school thought, or a school thought, I didn't make the school, so I'm pardon my my thought, my school of thought deal.

But a school of thought is going, own it. Because if you own it, you just change your review. You didn't just change your review. You changed my view of you because you're a person that can own it. So now I don't have to wait until next June to approach you about things. I don't have to wait for one-on-one review. use to have these tough conversations with you because you're the type of person that can own their mistakes.

There's one school of thought that says you can't have any mistakes because if you make mistakes, then you're not someone worth following. The other school of thought is, well, I actually want to work with somebody who's humble enough to admit when they're wrong. and to own their stuff. And so it's easy to blame a team. It's easy to point the finger at someone else. And I realize that, you know, the higher up you are in an organization,

the more you have to lose, the more if, you know, politicians, why we're all so afraid to, to own our stuff. We think it makes us look weak, but people will actually have more respect for us when we own our stuff than when we try to pretend like it never happened at all. Yeah.

Because the reality is we all know what happened. And so I think to encourage followers, I would say, if you make a mistake, own it. Own your humanity. and I would rather have someone on my team who owns their mistakes and is learning from them than one that isn't self-aware to know that they made them or knows that they made them and are pretending because now I feel like I'm working with a liar. That's right.

Now I feel like you're hiding things. Now if I ask you about why a project didn't get done in the time that you said, it was going to get done. Now, it's sad that I can't trust you. But if you own it, you just, what could have been broken trust is now, oh, oh, you made, okay, you learned from it. Okay, cool, great. So I think it's, it can be a very scary thing to put yourself out there and own your

stuff. But news flash, your leader's already. No. They already know. So it's just a matter of who's going to bring it up. You or them. Yeah. And how much easier, right, when you bring it up?

Oh, my gosh. I always, you know, anytime I've led somebody, I'm like, look, it stings less when you ask for the feedback. You know, just get in the habit of asking, open to coaching. What would you change? Like, it just for some reason, it stings less. A thousand percent. When you open the door for feedback. And I was on this mentorship call the other day.

And one of the girls had asked some question of feedback. And I said, look, if they're all 20-year-olds. So I'm like, if it's your first time soliciting feedback, ask about feedback in an area that you feel safe receiving feedback. Don't leave the door wide open, right? But just ask for something so you get in the habit of it and lead with something that's like, you know, I'm really trying to work on body language during Zoom meetings. And I would ask before you head into the meeting, you know, I'd love some coaching after your call if you think there's something I can work on. Because then you know at least the subject and the coaching that's going to come back to you if that's if it's too intimidating just to have open feedback.

But I love your concept of just own it. Well, you know, I think we should do a whole episode on body language on Zoom because it's hard. It's hard. It's so hard. It is, it is very, very. very hard. It feels twice as hard as a regular in-person meeting. But hey, another episode for another day. That's awesome. Thanks so much for your time, right? Yes, you as well. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of followership with Ryan Leak. I wanted you to know

that I got a new number just to connect with you. And this is a number that I use to be able to answer people's questions and I send out weekly encouragements every single week. I send some sort of thought, something that I've been chewing on that really can help someone get through their week. If you'd like to subscribe to that, you can text 469-809-1201. Again, that's 469-809-1201. You can text, hey, you could text subscribe, you could text followership, and you will get an automated message from the service, but trust me, it is coming to my phone. And if you ask me a question, I most likely will answer to prove to you that it is me and that it is coming to my cell phone. Now, if today's episode added value to your life, I would encourage you to rate it by

stars as preferred. I would also encourage you to perhaps leave a comment. I would also encourage you to buy chasing failure on Amazon or wherever you purchase books. You can even get it on Audible. It's me reading the book. There's even some extra bonus material with Audible as well. And of course, if this added value to your life,

I would encourage you to share it with a friend. Until next time, we'll see you.