The Ryan Leak Podcast - How To Create Engaging Culture Working From Home with Dr. Julia Wiener

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In this episode, Ryan Leak interviews Dr. Julia Wiener, a leadership and organizational development expert. They discuss topics related to culture, leadership, followership, and navigating challenges within the workplace. Dr. Wiener shares insights on how to create a positive impact on culture while working from home, the concept of intelligent disobedience, and the dynamics between leaders and followers. If you're looking for a culture coach, there's no one better than Dr. Julia. You can connect with her at ryanleak.com/coaching.

My friends, welcome to followership with Ryan Leak podcast designed to talk about the other side of leadership. And today I have on the podcast, a doctor. That's right, guys. I, I, there's levels to this thing I like to say as I talk about my book leveling up. And there's, you just, you just don't run into a whole lot of PhDs. You just don't. you're talking about top 1% in the world. I have Dr.

Julia Weiner on the podcast today. She has made time in her busy schedule for all of us. And I cannot wait to have a robust conversation. I'm using words like robust. That's what happens when you have PhDs on your podcast. I don't know what other big words I'm going to use to sound smarter than I really am, but I just, I feel that, I feel a little bit of that pressure today, but Dr. Julia, which such an inspiring story of how we even connect it.

So, Dr. Julia has heard me speak at her church several times. I was working out at Lifetime Fitness doing a basketball workout by myself. headphones in and then I look over to the side and I just see this woman kind of waving me down and I was like, oh no, what did I do? I don't know why that was my first thought. And I just loved the preciousness of her, just her bravery to interrupt my workout. And she was just so super kind. And then she just started telling me about her journey of getting her PhD. And I was just, just so fascinated by her story. And the fact that she had the courage to just come, stop my workout and tell me her story.

And now she's on our coaching platform. But how did that happen so fast? But if you get nothing out of today's episode, be brave. Just be willing to do the thing that maybe you're afraid to do. And so with that being said, Dr. Julia, welcome to followership with Ryan. Thank you. I'm so honored to be here.

I'd like to say the other side of that, too. I came out of the Williams locker room. Yes. And I walked past the gym. I saw you. And then I thought, that looks like Ryan Leak. Um, you know, not going to bother him. He looks like he's, you know, having a great workout.

And then I almost got out out of the gym. And then I went back by and I was like, no, I really think I should go and tell him how inspiring he has been for, for me. for my family and then I remembered a couple of sermons that you've done and where you've talked about people coming up to you and talking to you and how you've been so open for them. So I was like, well, hey, I'm just going to do it. Like you said, be brave. And I had just finished. I think I had just ended my PhD at that time. And I just needed to tell you how amazing many of your speeches have been for our family. So thank you again for that. Thank you. That's awesome. Well,

Can you share the journey you shared with me on the Quartet Day? Can you share that journey with our listeners? I think it's inspiring. I think there are so many people that live in this world and they just think, well, I just can't. I've hit a ceiling. I love to lift the lid, so to speak, off of people's mindsets of what they think is possible with them. And I think what you've accomplished this far in your journey is remarkable. So can you share a little bit about your journey?

Sure. So I started my career in corporate America, left to go to a startup with my husband and our partners and was doing all the jobs that I could think of during a startup like most people doing startups. And I got myself into a situation where I was training leaders and developing our culture. And I loved it so much that I wanted to go and just be the best I could be in this area. So I decided to go get my PhD after lots of prayer and looking around. I finally decided on a PhD program that was a good fit for me.

And I had a 19-year-old daughter or 19-month-old daughter at the time. And I thought I could still do it, you know, even with a small child. And about halfway through my coursework, we decided that we would try for another child. I was pregnant with my son and things were going great. And then when I gave birth to him, there was a complication. And he was in the NICU for about seven weeks. And then he came home for about four weeks on hospice. And we lost him.

He was 12 weeks old. And we lost him just here at our house. And it was devastating. It was quite devastating. I thought that I wouldn't finish my Ph.D. Like I said, I was about at the end of my coursework. and my professors, my cohort members, friends, families, especially my husband and just everyone came around and said, you know, we are going to get this PhD. You know, this is, this is, God has laid this on your heart. We are going to do this. What do we have to do to help you, you know, process finish line? And they did, you know, at, you know, when I had a graduation party in my speech, I said, this is for all of you. This is all of you, all of you contributed to this because,

Um, losing a child is, uh, like no other loss. And, um, you know, I, I, I think, you know, like you said, you know, people think at some point, like, if that happened to me, I wouldn't be able to, to finish. And, um, I'm telling you, you can. It happened to me and you can. Um, so it's, uh, it's been, it's been a, um, a really, I would say meaningful, uh, experience. And, um, I've learned so much from this. I'm still learning. I'm still working my way through this, but I know part of the reason for this is for me to help others and coach others. Wow. So how do you how did you do that? How do you do that? How would you coach

somebody that just feels like they've experienced a colossal loss and just trying to figure out how to continue to go to the next level. And let's just say they, let's say they don't have the community that you have. How would you coach that person? I think about that often, Ryan, because I did, and I do, I have such a great community. And not everyone has that. So whenever I'm coaching a person that, you know, finds himself in a situation, not necessarily a loss of a child or a parent or a spouse or what have you, but just a loss, period.

I talked to them about value and what their values are and figuring out how do we get back to those? How do we find meaning and connect that meaning to your values? So let's just say, for example, one of your values might be working out or, you know, you really value physical fitness or you really value friendship or whatever your values are. It doesn't have to be anything to do with your job or leadership. But how do you set yourself up to lead, lead your team, live your life where your values are shining through and you're creating meaning around that? So if your value, let's just say again, is helping others, then how do we set that up? How do we do that? How do we create a system or an area for you to grow through?

And so, yeah, I think it's values, figuring out what a person's values are. And sometimes we don't even know that. We don't know until we sit down with a coach or with a friend or someone. And we have some type of format or model where we write down what we value. And also, how do we create meaning? How do we connect those two? So sometimes it could just be sitting down with that client and we're just talking about it. And we're just writing it out and we're putting it down.

we're having intentional time. Now, I, I gravelled around your PhD, but I don't think we actually told people which have a PhD in. That would be helpful, right? They're like, okay, so she's a doctor, is your medical doctor? So I'll let you tell.

So PhD in organizational leadership. Organizational leadership. Is that correct? Did I say that right? Because a lot of times people get this PhD and the actual title of it is so long that we just call you. So is that the literal?

Is that the literal? And so you are absolutely right. It is always very long. Okay. Now, with that, you have an emphasis on culture. When it comes to culture, what part does the leader play in culture? And what part does the follower or the other team members play in culture? Because they play such integral roles in,

in building culture. So there's, this fears that I love, Shine. He talks about these culture embedding mechanisms that leaders do. And one of them is clearly just how you behave, how you come, how you show up.

People are watching you. You know, it's the one thing that you do. But he also talks about how leaders, um, stick to what they say. So for example, a leader says something like,

hey, we're going to get to to work on time. we're going to be, we're going to be here. Okay, well, then someone shows up late. Leader doesn't do anything. What people learn from that is, oh, well, the culture around here is that we can show up late and that nothing's going to happen. And so that's one of the ways that leaders can create culture.

Another way leaders can create culture is asking the team, hey, what is it that we want from this company? What do we want from this? How do we want to build this culture up for ourselves? just because the culture of the organization might be one way, the leader can create a culture on his team or on her team of innovation, of coaching, all kinds of different cultures that you can create on your team. Now, at the same time, that follower, that person who's in that subordinate position, they have to be willing to listen and willing to also challenge. Now, that's one of the things I love about true followership is challenging. True followers, the ones that are in it and they are ready to learn are also ready to challenge.

They want to ask their leader, how can we make this better? What can we do to improve this? And just have that confidence. I think there's a term for it. It's called intelligent disobedience, where you can, yeah, isn't that cool? Intelligent disobedience. So intelligent disobedience is a term from a theorist called Shayleaf. And he talks about the idea that followers aren't, he doesn't really.

like the word follower or subordinate, um, because he thinks that it's just a co-created process. So you might be a leader. You might be a follower all in the same day. You know, you've talked about this on this podcast. So it doesn't, it doesn't really know, basically. However, we do have hierarchies. We do have structures where people have to fall in line. So that's the, the foundation here.

But second, he talks about the idea of, um, being disobedient. to your leader, but then being intelligent about it. Well, what does that mean? So that means actually researching what the issue is, coming to your leader with a solution, coming to your leader with, hey, I've checked into this, and I've got experience in this. Hopefully your leader has hired you for whatever experience

that you bring to the table. But you being intelligent about the way that you come about it as well, that's part of intelligent disobedience, just raising your hand and saying, this is wrong, I hate this, This isn't what I, you know, what I signed up for. That's not being intelligent about being disobedient.

And then sometimes, you know, you might not have that opportunity. And here's where it really gets down to it. You might not have the opportunity to wave your hand and have an intelligent conversation with a leader. You might have to make a decision that your leader didn't approve on the spot because you, as the follower, knows that there's an ethical ramification or there's some reason. reason why you shouldn't do this action and you have to explain later. And that can happen. I think that that happens more often than not. And then, you know, you kind of have to deal with fallout or whatever that's going to be. But that's what intelligent disobedience is. It's it's knowing your craft, knowing what your lane is and being able to make a decision on

your own sometimes without having the conversation with your manager or your leader. And then sometimes what's having that conversation. Hmm. So let's say someone is in a bad culture or, if we use the word toxic culture, I read a stat about a year and a half ago where I don't know what the number of employees was surveyed, but 73% of whatever that number was in the thousands described their workplace as toxic. 73%

is a pretty high number. And so whenever you're in a position where your work environment is less than ideal, what can a follower or team member do to make that culture go in a positive direction? Yeah, that's a really good question

because so many people feel like they're powerless in spots like that. They feel like, well, I should just quit. Yes. I should just quit. Yes. Yes, that's the word. That's the word that people feel a lot.

Definitely powerless. What would you coach a person that feels powerless? What would you say to them? You know, I kind of go back to, you know, the meaning making and figuring out what they are doing. What are you doing here? What can you do to make a difference here? Because that's all we really can control anyway.

You know, whether it's in our workplace or at home or whatever, We have to be in control of ourselves. And so as a follower in a situation like this, get the best help that you can. Get a coach. Get a coworker. Get an ally. Talk to talk to people that are at other companies to see what they're doing. Figure out how you can help.

You know, there's there is something that you can do. And you just have to figure that out for yourself. It's going to be different for every situation. But use your resources. figure out how you can make a change in an organization. Yeah. I often talk with people who are job searching or while they have a job. And they're like, I want to, I want to work for a company that can help me go to the next level.

And I often say to them, why don't you help yourself go to the next level? Why are you waiting on now? Why are you waiting on them to do the things you could be doing right now? I don't know where you think. I don't know where this magical place. is that you're going to go, it's going to turn you into an Avenger and you're going to be flying and you're going to be doing all these, like, I don't know what superpower you think is coming your way, but you can go get a book on Amazon right now and begin going to the next book.

Somebody said to me, or I heard this quote once, that where you are five years from now will be determined by the books you read between that time and now. You just be surprised how much you can level up when reading and applying just a few good books a year. You'd be surprised how much of a difference you can make in an environment. And I am a firm believer that we can be the kinds of people that you can place in any environment, toxic or it's Chick-fil-A my pleasure every single day and still add value to other people. So I love that.

what are you what are you seeing as one of the top challenges in the American workforce right now as it pertains to culture? You know, I think that some of the, I have a couple of clients right now that are consulting clients, not coaching clients. And we're talking about culture in their organizations. and it's interesting because what's happening is cultures aren't thick and they should change. They should change with the competitive landscape. They should change with the environment, what's happening in the world. And if you're kind of stuck, you're stuck in this culture of, let's just say it's a very hierarchical culture where there's layers and layers and layers. things is, you know, bureaucracy and things are taking forever to get done. But the industry that you've

moved yourself into over the last five years or so is fast-paced. And it's taking you forever to get an approval on something. So what I'm seeing now is that organizations have to become more flat, have a flatter hierarchy structure or flatter culture to, yeah, to actually get things done faster. And I think that's been the feedback on it, especially my consulting client. with culture and just interviewing some of the employees. It's we can't move fast enough because there are so many approvals or so many levels. And so in one thing that that boils down to me is trust. I think that when it comes down to it is how are leaders able to trust followers more?

What can leaders do to create this atmosphere of trust? And I think that's really, you know, if I keep pulling back the onion on this issue, it's an issue of trust. I have a hard question for you. If you indeed have the profound answer that I think you're going to have, you need to write a book on it like yesterday. How does someone impact culture working from home? Oh, wow. That is interesting.

I've never thought about that until just now. And I thought someone's going to write the book on that. Matt, but how do I, and it could be a hybrid culture, there could be, but how do I make an impact on what is culture with a working from home culture? And I'm willing to bet, you know, probably 50% of our listeners work from home now. I'm in the world's working from home. So what is your perspective on virtual versus in person, how to, someone make an impact from, you know, wearing pajamas. Yes.

Okay. So first, I want to back up and talk to the listeners about what culture really is because it's actually quite abstract. It's people talk about this invisible thing called culture and really use this word quite interchangeably. But for, you know, based on the literature of what culture is, it's kind of broken up into three parts. So the part that we can see are the artifacts. Those are the the logos and the websites and all of the things that you, we see when I go to your Instagram or when I go to your

LinkedIn. Those are the, that's part of your culture with those artifacts. Those are the top of that iceberg. And getting down in the middle of, let's just call this this iceberg here, it's the, it's the espoused values. So it's the things that people say they're about. So, So if we go to ryanlink.com, we can see all the things that you say that you're about. And, you know, if you go to any organization, they have a mission, a vision, and poor values. Those are the, that middle part, really. Now we get down to what I call actual culture. And that's the basic assumptions.

Those are the things that are underneath the artifacts, underneath what you espoused. And at that, on the bottom of that are basic assumptions. And those are the things that leaders create. And people, those people working from. home. Those are the things that they create. Basic assumptions are things that are happening without us really saying it. So, for example, a person working from home and they have a conversation on over Zoom or whatever teens platform and say there's an issue. There's a, there's a problem with the person that

they're in the meeting with. Well, what do they do after that? Do I mean, they just go back to their room or their living room and go in their pajamas or do they follow up with that person in a one-on-one conversation and say, hey, you know, that was a tough call. How you doing? You know, I don't know if we really connected on that. Do you want to talk through that a little bit one-on-one? That's creating a basic assumption that I care about you and that even though we're on a Zoom or even though we are in a virtual environment, we can still tackle things head on. That's, that's a prime example of creating these basic assumptions about the culture. And then for leaders, I think it's fostering whatever culture that you want.

You can still do that virtually, responding to emails, comments on meetings on time. You know, all of these things that people still expect to happen can still happen virtually. I think that just saying do the same thing you do in person that you do online isn't the answer. But I think that it almost takes a more conservative effort when you're virtual because you do lose that face-to-face. I think there needs to be more one-on-one when you weren't a virtual environment to create culture. Whereas in the workplace, you may be able to have a big town hall and shake hands afterwards and that kind of thing. Interesting.

Earlier, you made a distinction between a coaching client and a consulting client. Yes. What is the difference in your mind between hiring a consultant versus hiring a coach? Sure. So for coaching, usually it's one-on-one. It's a coaching client. It's one-on-one. And there's group coaching as well where there may be a group of executives.

But it's usually in a one-on-one environment. And we are doing some work. We're working on setting goals, setting clear goals. I'm holding you accountable. You know, we are, maybe if you're doing a 360-degree feedback, we're going through that and working out the kinks on that feedback. Whereas with a consulting client, it is, it's more at the organization level. So I might be meeting with three or four people from the executive team.

and they're saying, hey, we've got a problem here with our culture or we've got a problem here with the way that the employees are communicating with each other. It just, you know, something's not right. How do we, what are your thoughts on how to fix this? So I might go in and do a company-wide survey. I might talk to a few employees in a focus group and then come back to that executive team with some suggestions on how to implement something that's going to be. For sure. Wow. So if a leader's coming to you.

Mm-hmm. And they start describing some of the things that are going on in their organization. Is there a part of me that says, I've got to fix the culture of you before I fix the culture of the entire organization? Absolutely, Ryan. Oh, my goodness. Let me tell you how many times I've seen the leader comes to me or peer of mine and has a big organizational problem, big problem. And I'm thinking, okay, where is this all coming from? You know, and I ask these discovery questions, you know, how did this start?

And it's almost a coaching session with that executive as well. And a lot of times it does. It usually starts with that leader. It starts with how they have implemented this culture and those basic assumptions that I talked about. They do, you do a lot as a leader without talking, without even saying anything, you have created a culture of, you know, fill in the blank. And so that's what I help them uncover is, okay, it sounds like you have created this

culture. Now, because I have taxed, I'm not going to say you're the problem. But, but yeah, a lot of times that's what it comes out to be. And, you know, they've called in the, they've called in the help. And they, they're the ones that need it most. Wow. Incredible. Incredible. Well, I'm so excited that you're a part of our coaching platform now.

you've already added value to what we do and believes that you're going to continue to add value to our clients. Is there any other place people can connect with you to get resources, anything? And we'll put that in the show notes as well. Awesome. Yes, I am on LinkedIn. And my name, Julia Blandon, Weiner. And that's my baby name. And then my website is jw strategies.com. And I am, I'm on those two places and on Instagram as well. That's awesome. Well, your, your journey is inspiring from all the way from culture stuff to even just all the things that you've persevered in your personal life.

And thank you for your vulnerability, your insight and your wisdom today. I'm sure our listeners just got better. And if you want to learn more, you can check out her website. She's also featured on RyanLeak.com, too. We just did a whole new rebrand as well. And so it's today's episode at value to your life. I encourage you to share it as a friend. You can rate us.

You can subscribe. And Dr. Julia, thank you once again for taking time out of your busy schedule to be on a scholarship with Ryan League. I am honored. Thank you so much, Ryan.