The Ryan Leak Podcast - Lessons From SeaWorld w/Joel Manby

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

Joel Manby is a dad, a 25 year CEO, an author and a speaker. As a former CEO of major organizations such as Sea World, Saab, and Herschend Enterprises, Joel endured my fair share of each of these situations. He's learned a number of leadership and life lessons and have found solutions to each of these concerns. As a result, he's built strong teams and created corporate cultures that have thrived amidst major adversity. Highlights from today's episode: Undercover Boss URL: https://www.cbs.com/shows/undercover_boss/video/owrUga37IMHm4Sjw9haRh1xo0snCmzHJ/undercover-boss-herschend-family-entertainment/ Lessons from Joel: Leaders lose faith in followers that would tell me what they want to hear. Leaders wish followers would bring them recommendations over problems. Followers should always try do the right the thing and do the best thing for the company over any personal agendas.

Welcome to followership with Ryan Leak, the podcast designed to equip followers with the tools they need to succeed in the workplace. While leadership is often a more popular discussion, most people will spend the majority of their careers doing more following than they will leading and they need help to do it. You might work for a good, bad, or mediocre leader. But the good news is the type of leader you have doesn't have to determine the type of follower you can become. Gentlemen, episode two is upon us. And today's guest is Joel Mamie. Joel Mamby is an author of the book called Love Works. We're kind of getting into that in this conversation that I recorded with Joel.

He is the former president, chief executive officer and director of SeaWorld Parks. That's right. I said Sea World. He was also the CEO of Persian Enterprises, the largest family-owned theme park and entertainment company in the United States of America. You might be thinking to yourself. Ryan, how in the world did you get connected with Joel? I'm glad you asked.

Here's what happened. I was scheduled to speak at a leadership conference called Orange. Obviously, COVID-19 happened and everything went virtual. And so I recorded a message for Orange Conference this year where that video was played during the normal time. The conference would be happening. And they asked me to say, hey, could you jump into a Zoom and do a Q&A after your call is recorded? and we're going to have a host in there asking you, you know, a series of questions. I said, yeah, no problem.

So I hop into this Zoom. I didn't know who would be asking me questions. And Joel Mambi pops on the Zoom and says, Ryan, we've got a couple of questions. Man, I love your talk and you don't want to dive into it. And I was like, Joel, why are you asking me questions? There has been a miscommunication, ladies. I said, something is terribly wrong. I should be asking you questions.

And he said, man, I'd be happy to hop on your podcast or anything you need. And so that's how we got connected. So before we jump into this recorded phone conversation, Joel and I have about followership, I want you to know that if you're listening to this, you think, man, I would love the show notes from this podcast. You can get those at Ryanleek.com slash followership. Again, that's Ryanleek.com slash followership. Now, about any further ado, we're going to jump into this fun conversation that I had with my friend Joel Bainter. So you've sat in a president or chief officer position for the past 25 years in the life at various companies.

Do you have a favorite season that like you went, man, this is, this is, this is, this was the, I was in this lane or at this company and it was just, it was fun for you. I really do, Ryan, because it was the time when I finally felt like I was in God's calling. And it took a long time. I mean, basically the first 20 years of my professional career, I was in the auto industry. I came out of a business school MBA, and I went with Saturn Corporation and then Saab, Rand Saab, North America as their CEO. But all that 20-year period, I had this angst inside of me that said, Look, I'm a believer, but I'm in this auto industry. And all I saw was autocratic, fear-based, doggy dog numbers-owned leadership.

They really didn't care about the person. And because of a set of circumstances I won't go into, I was on the board of Herschon Entertainment, which is Theme Park Company. They asked me to come in and be their CEO. And I decided to leave the auto industry because I had been on the board of Herschon. and just loved what I saw. And what the Hershians taught me as Jack and Pete Hersch, and they're the founders of this massive family-owned theme park company,

they taught me about love as a leadership principle. And it instantly resonated with me. And I said, this is the way I've always thought as a believer I wanted to lead, but I never saw an example of it. And I thought it was just me, Ryan. And this two, three-year period where I learned all the principles under Jack and Pete Herschin. But then what happened is I happened to be an undercover boss, which was a show where the CEO went undercover. CBS did it.

And we had 20 million people see our program because we followed the NCAA quarterfinals. Oh, wow. When they saw our culture and they saw how we. treated employees, I just got inundated with hundreds, even thousands of letters. I still have them all printed out in notebooks. And I realized that I wasn't the only one that felt like leaders weren't stepping up to being great leaders. And there were a lot of disenchanted people.

And that led me to write the book called Love Works, where I define how love can be a really great leadership principle. So for me, that was the best season because literally, 20 years, I had angst, and all of a sudden I feel like, I am home, I'm where God has called me to be. And I stayed there for 15 years before I ended up going to SeaWorld for a bunch of different reasons. But that's the best season I've ever had. Wow. And what was it like at SeaWorld? SeaWorld, on the other hand, was the exact opposite.

I mean, in hindsight, I made a mistake. And, you know, we talked a little bit before the podcast started about be careful. for what you wish for. And why I admire so much what you've done to stay where you know you're gifted and you love to do it. I was in a great spot at Herschind, but I had on this bucket list in my brain,

I'm not sure how it got there, but I always wanted to be a public company CEO. And when SeaWorld called me and recruited me because the first the CEO had gotten fired because the blackfish had impacted their company so badly. I got recruited, and of course there's big, big dollar figures.

There's a lot of stock options, a lot of upside if things work. But when I got into it, it was just a complete deception. I mean, the board was very dysfunctional. The team was dysfunctional. And we were getting so attacked from the outside with the animal activists and et cetera, that it ended up being really a really touch. situation and in the end of the day. We turned the numbers around and as I left, we were up almost 20%, but I got into a run-in

with a couple board members that I just did not trust and I did not really believe in. And it just came to a point where we were not seeing eye to eye. And, you know, it's a long, I can go into it if you want, but it is basically they just wanted massive layoffs that I wasn't willing to do because I thought I would cut the quality of the company. Our numbers were already turning, but they wanted to exit quickly and get big profitability, and it didn't end so well. But it's just a great example back to your point of, you know, when you're in your calling,

like I was a hersened, the question is, why would we ever lead that? I feel like I made a mistake to kind of give into my, I guess, secular desires or that I mean, whether it was the money, the prestige or just check in the box that I had done that. I honestly, I wish I hadn't because it didn't end so well. But I tell you what, as you know, and everyone listening knows, you learn a lot more from your mistakes. and you do from the 15 years of success and wonderful culture at Hershey. That's what kind of happened at SeaWorld in a nutshell. And what theme parks does Hershey own?

So at Hersen, no one would know to name Hersen Entertainment because it's not the brand we market, but it would be all of Dolly Parton's parks in East Tennessee, like Dollywood, Dolly Splash Country. She has Dixie Stampede. We have some aquariums. We own the Harlem Globe Trotters, which it was just a – You talk about – that was a great experience

because when we bought the Harlem Globetrotters, the former owner had tried to make them into a competitive team that would beat Division I schools. Well, then they lost in Michigan. They lost a Duke. They lost. And they kind of lost their whole mojo. And we took them back to just being –

who they always were, ambassadors for sport. And, you know, interesting story there is, and just a quick, quick sideline. In South Carolina, because of kind of racism and just negativity, the Globetrotters hadn't played there in 12 years, and they were invited back. And I, as CEO of the whole company, not just the head of the Globetrotters,

I went to the locker room with the players. I said, look, this is a touchy issue. I'm not going to make the decision. You guys are going to make the decision. Here's the opportunity. Do you guys want to go into South Carolina and play? You want to be ambassadors for love and forgiveness and happiness. Or, you know, whatever you're comfortable with.

And so we voted on it. They voted privately and decided to go there. But it was a great example of love. And anyway, so that was one of the companies Herschen had. And, of course, SeaWorld has SeaWorld and all the Bush parks like Bush Williamsburg. Gotcha. Well, when you look back on, you know, what did you spend trying to get followers to understand? You know, I have always been focused at 50,000 foot level in my leadership positions with all our employees.

Like let's say, Herschen had about 12,000 employees. SeaWorld had about 25,000. So you're dealing with a lot of people. And what I felt was most important for me to get them to understand was our vision, our mission, and our values. So what is it that we want to see with our eyes that we want to accomplish day today? Like at Hershey, it was we want to create a memory worth repeating. And everyone's mission is to create the best day a family has all year long in the park.

and then we had a set of values and then trying to get the employees to see their role within that, whether it's a parking lot attendant or an accountant in the back office, making sure they all see how they're critical to that vision, mission values. And also, Ryan, make sure

they know what their metrics of success are. And then my belief is, as a leader, you just let them go. Because if you've hired the right people and they know the vision, mission values. They know where we're headed. They know what their metrics of success are. Let them go. They'll make some mistakes, but we evaluate them. But I focus much more on those kind of issues because it kind of starts with your fundamental belief in people. Are they

trustworthy that are going to do a good job if you let them go and they're clear on what the expectations are or do you distrust people and you're going to micromanage them and kind of look after every move they make i've always been in the former kind of auto industry was the latter and it wasn't until i got to herrish and i really understood this kind of leadership so that's that is where i would focus more than anything else more than their specific jobs it's much more of the vision mission values and kind of their metrics of success does that make sense Yeah, I mean, one of my questions would be for you, you know, let's say from Saab to Herschen to SeaWorld, you know, your inner circle, you know, your, let's say your top 10

executives, your lead team. What do you wish you got more from them? I mean, those, I mean, those are leaders, but they were still following you to a degree, you know, I mean, what's something you don't mean i wish i wish i would have gotten this from them a little bit more yeah that's a great question that's an absolutely great question um on one hand you know i i i believe in servant leadership so i'm i'm always as a leader i'm thinking a lot about how i can serve them what how can i knock down their barriers how can i pour into them so they become better leaders but i will tell you an answer to your question um to me the the biggest thing i wanted more of from the people I led was first of all to tell me the truth. And I lost faith and trust in people who I felt

would tell me what I wanted to hear. And for some of, you know, sometimes with autocratic or visionary leaders, you know, they're just really entrepreneurial visionaries. They want to be told they're right and they want what I would call operators around them that will just do what they say. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but that's a very limited, limited leadership style that will only take you so far. If you get over 150 employees into, you know, thousands, hundreds of thousands, you have to get people at your senior letter who are going to tell you the truth. I also, the second thing, I really wished young leaders would do more of is bring me recommendations. Don't bring me problems. And because my job, as a

a senior leader and CEO for the last 25 years is to train people to be great leaders. And the only way you can do that is to listen to their thought process. Bring me a recommendation. What are the pros and the cons? Why did you make this recommendation to me? I will ask really difficult questions, but my job is not to tell them what to do. My job is to make them better. And so bringing me recommendations with another.

The other, the third thing, which I know is going to sound like, well, this is just not rocket science, but do the right thing. And then, you know, it's someone ever. It sounds like it's common sense, but you'd be surprised. But it's not. How common is not. For sure. It's not. It's not because sometimes there's a tension between what is best for the company and what is the right thing, right?

I mean, you could shave a number here and there. Because all accounting principles aren't black and white. Some of them are gray. Well, for me, it was always you do the right thing. And then the fourth point I would make is you do the best thing for the company. And what really turned me off in young leaders is if I felt like they were after their own career, their own benefit, if they ever down talked to another employee or kind of were promoting. their own agenda versus what's best for the company,

they would not be on the list, you know, to get a promotion or to get to the top. And the last thing I would say to your, it is a great question, what did I want to see more of? Some people, and I stole this term, infinite mindset is actually Simon Sinek term. I mean, that's not a copyright thing, but he brought it out as an idea I like that idea because some people seem to be in a zero-sum mindset. Like he wins, I lose. She wins, I lose.

And I really liked people who brought everyone can win. There's a win-win scenario here. So those are the things that come to the top of my mind. Tell the truth. Bring me recommendations, not problems, do the right thing, do the best thing for the company, and then have an infinite mindset. that. No, I really, really love those. Those are excellent. I know in your, in your book, Love Works, which is seven timeless principles. One of the principles you talk about in your book is patience.

How important is that not just for leaders, but for followers? Well, from a, from a leadership standpoint, especially in tense situations when you reprimand somebody, use the term praise in public, admonish in private. And the worst mistake a leader can do, I think, is to admonish people publicly. Now, and then, you know, it causes embarrassment. It causes her feelings. And I know when it has happened to me, when I was in the auto industry, it always, I felt disenfranchised. Now, from an employee standpoint, I think patience comes into account when the leader

is not all that you want them to be. And I think that's a very common tale, right? Because all leaders are humans. And I heard a great quote by an Army General that said, people will forgive you if you're not the leader that you should be, but they won't forgive you if you're not the leader you say you are or you pretend to be. You say that one more time.

Say it one more time. People who follow you will forgive you if you're not the leader that you should be. But they won't forgive you if you're not the leader you say you are. And what that means ultimately is having trans have to be trans. Tell it like it is. Tell the truth. Tell our fear. There's nothing wrong with being afraid of having doubts.

Our staff. then they, where patience really comes into play with followers is the leaders aren't going to be perfect, but you try to have patience with them and still be willing to follow them. Wow. Well, I know for me, Patience is, you also talk about dedication in your book a lot too. Do you think it's possible to stay dedicated to a leader or a job that you, you don't like. You know, Ryan, I have two different answers for that because probably 10 years ago,

all my career, I have seen people at really low levels of the company, like frontline employees that have such an amazing impact on the company. I mean, they're energetic. They love the company. They know everybody. I've seen administrative assistants who just, you know, reach out to everybody. birthdays or if they're sick and they just create this loving culture. And I've always said, like in Love Works in the book I wrote, I talked about you don't have to be a senior leader

to have a huge impact on the culture in your company. But having said that, what I learned when I went to SeaWorld and I was, you know, I'm between, call it 55 and 60 when I'm at SeaWorld. So I'm no young chicken anymore. And it took me that long to learn this is when if your leader that you work for, you feel like ultimately does not have your best interest in mind or crosses a line from being, there's a difference between someone who really holds you accountable and is tough on you and wants better from you and makes you better,

those people you should have patience with and stick with. But it crosses a line to where the person is either abusive to you, ridicules you. I interacted with one of those people in my SeaWorld experience, then it's time to cut the cord and run. And I never have said that before. And I almost feel sheepish saying that to you or giving that advice to somebody. But when I look back, it costs me too much to stay at SeaWorld because of the dysfunction and what I felt was evil or people that didn't have my best interests in mind. and certainly not the company's best interest.

I'm aboard. I felt like I tried too long to stick with it. It caused health issues. Frankly, I worked so hard and got into some addiction issues that I just had to end up getting out and end up losing my marriage at the same time. I mean, within six months, I had resigned from SeaWorld and had lost my marriage.

And it was a really real. horrific, horrific experience that I would not want any other human being to go through. And I think part of it is because I was so unwilling to accept failure. I was so wanting to make SeaWorld turn that I didn't see that the leaders on the board were not in sync with me and weren't the kind of people I should want to work for. And I didn't cut the cord soon enough. So I hope I differentiate those things. You know, if someone's holding you accountable and you don't like them because they're tough on you,

I wouldn't run there because you're going to learn a lot. But if somebody is evil or dysfunctional or treating you with disrespect or certainly any kind of abuse, I really would cut the court and run because it really isn't worth what you're going to learn. I hope that comes across okay. No, no, that's huge because often what I see is sometimes a person's professional goals keeps them from reaching their personal goals. Or sometimes a professional goal puts them in a position when they actually have to sacrifice the personal goals and who they actually want to become.

And so I think that that's huge for a person that is trying to navigate their career I appreciate your vulnerability and being able to in hindsight and but I think it's a very valuable lesson well can I expand on it just a little bit because I just want to go yeah if you don't mind I'm just I'm going to expand a little bit on the on the premise you know you asked me about the book and I just want to hit the premise of the book because it applies to the principle that we just talked about I mean the premise of love work It's seven timeless principles of effective leadership.

We laid out at Herschon seven words of agape love. It's not love the emotion. It's love the verb. It's how you treat people. And those seven words are unselfish, forgiving, dedicated, and forgiving. And so how to lead this way. And the book has the processes of how we did that. What's amazing is it's not just a loving form of leadership.

it actually creates unbelievable results. Our engagement scores at the Hershey and at SeaWorld double what the normal engagement score. This is unbelievable statistic, but the average employee, whether it's nonprofit church or for-profit company, the average engagement level of an employee is only 30% scoring the top score in a company. And that's horrible. I mean, 30% scoring the best. whereas when we implemented these principles, 70 to 80% of employees would rate us. So they were very engaged in working for Hirsch and C-World.

But the key to making that work is having supports that because what I just described, those seven words are what I call the B goals. That's what kind of leader, you want to be what I want to be. We want to be loving people because that's Jesus' number one commandment. And we can be that kind of leader. Now, the do goals, which are your attendance at a church or your profitability as a for-profit company, we all have to hit those. But at Hershey and Seaworld, we measured not only what you accomplished in the numbers,

but how you went about accomplishing it with the B goals. And this is such a critical leadership principle. and what I'm getting to and respect to what happened to me at SeaWorld is even though I knew that, do goals and beagles and I knew that my integrity, I really believed in was the beagles. I wanted to I wanted to be those seven words of love when I got into this incredibly intense situation with a way I did and didn't we did. It kind of unraveled and it was because we weren't aligned on those values. and that's something that I think, you know, everybody who is listening just, it's important to get it with an organization where you're aligned with their value and aligned with your

own personal values because if your work forces you inside, there's content, there's no way you're going to bring out your best. Church world, well, I even think in church world, it's a common tale. I mean, I think a lot of cultures and churches are not that healthy. and that I've seen any way and certainly in for-profit businesses and not that healthy. So it's really important to seek out leaders

who have the same set of values you do and then for goodness sakes, live to those values, which I didn't do when I was at SeaWorld and it cost me. It just cost me a lot. Wow. Well, lastly, hey, where can our listeners

connect with you? We're working to get your book and we're going to get more Joel Mambi. Well, I have a website called joelmambi.com. If people buy the book there, Joel Mambi.com, it's the same price, no shipping like Amazon, but there are some free products like how,

right now I have a three-part video series on leading through a crisis like COVID. But they can also obviously go to Amazon or audible to get an audible version of the book. but the website has podcast. It has a lot of blogging that I've done. So that's how they would follow. That's awesome.

Well, I really, really appreciate your time and your insight, and you shared a wealth of wisdom, and I know it's going to help a lot of people. So I appreciate you, my friend. Well, thanks, Ryan. I appreciate you having me. Hopefully it helps one person somewhere. It makes it worth the time.

So I appreciate your time. I appreciate what you're doing. And just keep the positive momentum out there. Keep the positive energy. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of followership with Ryan Leak. Once again, the show notes from today's episode can be found on Ryanleek.com. If you found today's episode to be helpful, if you think it added value to your life, hey, why don't you go ahead and share it with a friend, rate us, review us, five stars is preferred.

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