The Ryan Leak Podcast - Overcoming Fear Hurdles w/Phd. Danny Kim

Episode Date: November 1, 2020

Danny Kim is Director of People + Culture at Raindrop which is a marketing, branding, and advertising agency in SoCal. He’s a Gallup Certified Strengths Coach. He’s also a Communication coach. And he also has a PHD in Industrial and organizational psychology. Highlights from Danny Kim: The biggest psychological hurdle followers have is fear. Fear can manifest in so many different ways; Fear of Self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and of what people think. “Fear is a hurdle followers need to overcome. They need to be their authentic selves and know they are enough.” "People need to have certain rituals and rhythms to ground themselves in gratitude." "You are your greatest product." "If you come into work knowing I am going to produce and be the best version of myself, that's a huge hurdle to overcome." "You have to have mentors, friends, colleagues, confidants, and partners who are going to be in your corner." "You don't overcome fear by running. You overcome fear by facing it." "If you're afraid of saying something and then getting fired, you probably shouldn't work there anyway cause it's not a psychologically safe place to work." “If followers step into hard places and have hard conversations they become leaders.” "You need to say when is it appropriate to speak my truth and how do I not let the fear of my leader impact my integrity." "Process where are my fears, What can I control, and what can I not control?" "Rather, you are a follower or leader. I hope that we can use our power and privilege to lift and support those that are usually in the  nondominant culture." “If you start leaning into the ways you are naturally wired, it does two things for you. Number one it gives you permission to be who you are. Knowing that your perspective is unique and what you bring to the world is unique. The second thing is it gives you permission  to not be who you are not.” "Part of addressing your fear is naming and claiming this is who I am. This is what I bring to the world and do I believe in myself?"

Welcome to Followership with Ryan Leak, a podcast designed to equip followers with the tools they need to succeed in the workplace. You might be following or working for a good, bad, or mediocre leader, but the good news is the type of leader you have doesn't have to determine the type of follower you can become. I'm your host, Ryan Leake, and you're listening to Episode 4 of Followership. On today's episode, we have a friend of mine named Danny Kim. He is the director of people and culture at Rain Drop, which is a marketing, branding, advertising agency in SoCal. He's also a Gallup certified strengths coach. He's also a communication coach.

He also has a PhD in industrial and organizational psychology. I'm not sure what Danny's not good at, but I'm honored that he would join me today on followership. Danny, welcome to follow. With Ryan Leak, man. How are you doing today? Doing well. Thanks so much for having me, man. Dude, it really is a pleasure, man. I'm so glad that we got connected a couple of weeks ago.

And, man, I want to dive right in, man. I got a lot of questions for you. Your brain is one that definitely needs to be picked. And I think a lot of people that are following in today's workforce, man, they can learn a lot from you. So, man, just to get started, can you tell everyone about your role at Rain Drop as the director of people in? culture. I mean, what does that really look like? Absolutely. So if I could summarize what I do every

single day at Rangrop, it's to champion the people and culture at our company. And so what that means is ensuring that everyone is at their best and supporting them when they're struggling or helping them think about what their future might look like here at Rangrop. And so I started about a year ago, and it's been a wild journey and it's been incredibly joyful for me that I get to serve 50 or so full-time employees every single day. That's awesome. That's my job. They're my clients and I love what I get to do.

Oh, that's really, really cool, man. Dude, so you've got this PhD in industrial and organizational psychology. I'm so curious, you know, what were some of your key takeaways even from, you know, going going through that program and maybe, man, what would you say is the biggest psychological hurdle you think followers have with their leaders in the workforce? For sure. You know, it's really interesting. So before I started at Rain Drop, I was working at a consulting firm and being mentored by a psychologist

and a sociologist. And they taught me so much about human behavior in the workplace, which is what the study of industrial organizational psychology is. Sometimes people think I'm their workplace therapist, not so much. But I'm happy to have those deep conversations as well, you know, helping, understanding that a person is a holistic person, not just, you know, their work productivity. But I think the biggest psychological hurdle that I've experienced in my, both as a director and as a consultant, is fear. and I know that's kind of deep,

but fear can manifest in so many different ways. I think fear of self, like self-doubt, imposter syndrome. When I bring people on to our team for the first time, my first conversation with them as I go through our manual and some ins and outs of raindrop 101, I tell them at the end of my call, I say, you are enough and you are here for a reason, and you don't have to prove anything.

You just have to be you. And like you've gone through our entire kind of vetting process and onboarding process and you're here. And now you just need to be you, you know, and show up authentically. And I think that's a big deal because there's a, there's fear, right, from day one when you're starting a new job. Will I be enough? Will I, you know, I can't believe people are paying me to do X, Y, and Z. And so just giving them that permission. And then as you move up in the organization, there's fear of what will people think about me, what will my teammates think about me and my comments.

Am I enough? And then all the way up to really leaders, you know, they have a difficult challenge where, you know, if they do one thing, they're accused of something. And then if they do another thing, they're accused of another thing. So there's just fear all around. And I think that is a hurdle that followers need to overcome because, one, they need to be their authentic selves and know that they're enough. But two, have faith and give positive intent.

because I know that as you move up in an organization, it gets lonelier, I'll say that. Part of my kind of a general thinking is that leadership is lonely at the top. Yeah. And because they have less people to confide in or there's more pressure on you. And so, anyway, just having empathy for leaders is really big. So how do they overcome that?

I mean, how does one, you know, I mean, I know I've dealt with my favorite. share of fears in my career and the more influence I've been able to have over the past few years, I would definitely empathize and agree with, man, yeah, it has gotten lonelier. I mean, I got a great group of friends, but, you know, before I had the influence I have now, I certainly had more friends. So how do we, how do you recommend we deal with that? Yeah, that's good.

I think there's several different aspects to how someone can overcome fear. I think, first of all, I think people need to begin to have certain rituals or rhythms to help them ground themselves and gratitude to work on themselves. You know, I often say that you are your greatest product in a sense that when you're healthy, you know, When you're in a good place, when you're not fighting imposter syndrome, when you're not worried if you're enough, you know, if you're if you're if you're if you come into work knowing like I'm going to produce and be the best version of myself, I think that that that that's huge. That's a huge hurdle to overcome. Right. So that's one thing that, um, your listeners can think about is what can I do for myself? Like how do I take care? What can I control, right? Whether that's, I mean, for a few years, I did a practice where I would journal 750 words. every single day. And I just wrote my thoughts down. And I was like, okay, so why am I afraid? You know, I would literally ask, I had like this Socratic way of thinking where I would

ask myself questions and then I would give myself answers. So I'd be like, Danny, why am I afraid of this person? And then I'd say, well, this person said this and why do you feel that way? And so doing a little bit of self-work, I think, is going to go a long way. So grounding yourself in some rhythms and rituals that would help you, ground in yourself and your being and who you are. And then secondly, I think you have to, like you said, you have to have mentors and friends and colleagues and confidants and partners

who are going to be in your corner. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's a pastor or a priest or a counselor or a coach, you know. I do a fair amount of coaching as well. So it's kind of one of those, I'm in their corner. I've got their back, you know, because sometimes we need that. We need that extra support that's maybe not your. your direct boss or manager.

And then ultimately, how you overcome fear is you have to face it. You know, you don't overcome fear by running away. You overcome fear by facing it. And so I think when you're talking specifically about followers with their leaders, if they're, let's say, afraid of their leaders, I have heard so many conversations where leaders or followers will have a candid conversation and give feedback to their leaders and say, hey, listen, this is what you said and this is how it made me feel, you know?

And leaders need feedback just as much as followers need feedback. Sure. And that could be such a learning opportunity and such a synergizing opportunity and actually can forge your relationships instead of brushing it under the rug. So I would say face your fears by approaching it, by inviting conversation, and addressing it head on. I love what you just said, you know, and I'm just, I'm putting myself in the shoes of a lot of a lot of our listeners today

that are truly their biggest fear is getting fired. I mean, they're, I have leaders tell me all the time, man, I wish my followers were more honest with me.

I'm like, the reason they're not is because they're afraid. I'm kidding. So, so what would you tell a follower? How do they handle that when they are, you know,

when they feel like they've got their health and benefits and salary in one hand and over one critique, over being honest. And so they feel like they have to sacrifice authenticity for their paycheck. I mean, how do you, how do you overcome that fear? It's a valid fear. I think fear is complex, like I said. It also requires you to think about what are my responsibilities, who am I supporting, what does this paycheck help me to accomplish in my life, you know,

whether that's supporting a family, food on the table. So that's a real thing, right? So I don't want to underestimate that or undervalue that. I do want to say, though, if you're afraid of saying something and then getting fired, you probably shouldn't be working there anyways because it's not a psychologically safe place to work. Wow. It's a big statement. It's a big statement. It's a big statement. And I think that's what, I mean, and then it becomes, I mean, in psychology, there's this term called Stockholm syndrome. where it's basically the idea where you go back to your abuser.

And I think sometimes workplaces can function like that because they give you a paycheck and you just keep going back, you know? Wow. But I don't think that's true to who you are. You know, if you're a follower and you're in that space, like you need to be authentic to who you are and say, I need to show up. And I need to take the step and say, I need to tell them how it is for real, you know. And I think if followers can do that, they actually stay. step into leadership. That's what leaders do is they step into those hard places. They have those hard conversations and they're willing to put their salary on the line knowing that there will be

something else out there for them. Your current job is not final. We know from the pandemic, sometimes it has nothing to do with your work productivity. Sometimes it has to do with the global landscape of economy. And so my encouragement would be to followers is say, obviously you have to have a certain level of interpersonal savvy where you can understand. You know, if you're kind of like the person that's always like, you know, arguing or fighting for something, you know, it's like, okay, you don't want to be a sore thumb, you know, or bad apple in your organization. But you do need to say, when, when is it appropriate for me to speak my truth? And when, how do I not let the fear of my leader impact my integrity? Hmm. Oh, man.

You know, that's, it's so good and it's so tough because, you know, you and I have had some offline conversations about diversity. What is your exact nationality as? Sure. So I'm Asian American. My parents immigrated from Korea. Okay. I was born in L.A. Okay.

So me being African American, me being Asian American, our listeners are, it's a pretty diverse group. of listeners in terms of the people that I get to speak to you on a weekly basis and different organizations. I have to imagine that for our listeners of color, if you will, the fear of not just getting fired, but the fear of going, I waited in line so long to even be in some of the positions that some of my friends of color are in now to start all the way over is an even bigger like the idea like I can I there's something else out there for me for them and that that fear is like man I stood in line to be where I'm at right now for 10 years I don't know

that I have another another decade I mean yeah in light of the diversity work that you've even done at Rain Drop, you know, what would be your encouragement to that person that, and even, even for our female listeners who have stood in line a very long time to be in their position, you know, so for them to speak up, you know, it's, it almost feels like they have a lot to lose, you know, so, I mean, what would you, what would you say to that person? Wow. Yeah. Thanks for bringing it home and helping us see where the rubber meets the road. And that's why I say fear is complex, right? And it's not a one-size-fits-all. And I'm not telling everyone to quit their jobs, you know? I think there is a level of complexity that we have to be mindful of when it comes to fear. I will say this, though, you may want to ask, if you're in that situation, you have to ask yourself, what am I, what am I truly afraid of first? Meaning, am I afraid of like my boss and my circumstances?

Or am I afraid of my ability to contribute and my ability to give back and who I am and what I bring uniquely to the table? And why I think that's important is because if it's your situation, then you can pick up and move and you will find places. is to contribute and add value to the world. I truly believe that. If it's literally a bad boss or a bad culture, like I think you can find other places

that you would add value to. If you are afraid of your ability to contribute and you're afraid of yourself and you can't get yourself out of your, if you can't get unstuck from your own self, you know, and you're your biggest enemy in some ways, I would then say, what would change if you left?

you know, because I think sometimes we think that the grass is greener on the other side and we think, wow, if I get go there or, you know, and so I would kind of start processing where are my fears? What can I control and what can't I control? And then as you're thinking about your current circumstances and if you're like, I am feeling like I need to leave this, I need to exit because this is a toxic place to work or my leaders are X, Y, and Z, whatever, you know. Right. And it's a bad culture. I would say the best time to look for a job is when you have one, you know, and don't wait for it to be too late.

Constantly be reinventing yourself, constantly be thinking, what other skills can I develop? What other people can I network with? Who else can I get mentored by, you know? Right. And find people that have maybe similar stories to you to be able to then find solidarity in and get advice from. And so it's a tough place to be, man.

I mean, I have to walk that. line too and I feel extremely fortunate. I would say that I have so I've had so many resources in my life so and so I can't begin to say like oh I've worked my way up from the bottom because I had so many resources but my parents did you know and and and but I say that only to say that I want to encourage folks that when they are in position of power or whether you're a follower or a leader I hope that we can use our power and privilege to support and lift up those that are under are usually in the non-dominant culture. Yeah.

And so my intention has become, how do I help those who are first generation college students? I'm on a board for that. How do I help women and my BIPA community? How do I intentionally put in front of people who are, typically of power and privilege and have those candid conversations and provide opportunities for for dialogue you know what I mean and so I don't know if that answers your question but that's what I'm trying to do is trying to become an ally an active ally in some ways and an advocate no I think I think that's huge and I think something that you you've said so much that I could you know we could

get off in the many rabbit trails on imposter syndrome and and some other things you mentioned but one of things you just you just said about this idea of going, hey, being, being aware of what you bring to the table. And I know that you, you're a Gallup certified strengths coach. You know, I guess one of the questions I would ask of you is how important would you say it is for a follower to understand their strengths and understand what they bring to the table? And how do, how do they do? How do they do? that. Totally. So I think there are several different assessments and personality assessments and psychometrics that people can take disc, Myers, Briggs, Enneagram, which you know, you're certified in. So I think all of them have different flavors, but the goal is to show you, show the individual

the uniqueness and unique perspective that you bring to the world. And I think that sometimes people use it like almost like a horoscope and they're like, oh, I've got these five words. They're like, I'm a nine or I'm an eight or whatever, you know? And they kind of like they literally, it's like a name card and then that's about the extent of it. But if you do some of the deep work, which is why I like actually the Enigram, because it talks about your fears, right? Your basic fear, your basic desires. Oh, for sure. But if you can start leaning into some of the ways in which you're naturally wired, it does two things for you.

Number one, it gives you more permission to be who you are, knowing that you are unique. Like, your perspective is unique. What you bring to the world is unique. How you operate, what motivates you is pretty unique to you. That's what a lot of these personality assessments do because it's like, we don't all think the same. We don't all have the same tendencies.

But the second thing I think that's really important is it gives you permission to be who you're, to not be who you're not. So that you don't have to pretend, you know, like I think, That's part of the fear. It's like sometimes we have to pretend like, like there's so many years where in my early, early on my career where I felt like I needed to be more organized. I needed to have better handwriting and I needed to pay better attention to typos. And I like killed myself trying to just like trying to just be better at that.

I was like, oh, like I would kill myself when I missed the comma, you know? I'm with you. I'm with you. And then I took the strengths finder and I was like, man, that's just not what I'm good at. You know, like I'm a visionary. I'm a big picture guy. I'm going to put me on a stage and talk to people and bring them to, you know, movement and change. And so it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, I just need to hire someone that's like really good at that.

Like someone that's like organized, meticulous, like finds the typos and not get mad when they've pointed out, but to be like, thank you so much for helping me see my blind spot. You know what I mean? Like I need to, you know? And so I think that hopefully, like, part of addressing your fear is naming, kind of just naming and claiming, like, this is who I am. This is what I bring to the world. And do I believe in myself? Right.

Because a lot of people will actually believe it for them. Like a parent or a spouse or a friend will be like, oh, that's totally you. And like, you're like, I don't see that in me, you know? And so first step is like, can you own it? Can you believe it? That you actually have something unique to contribute to the world. And then, too, it's like, okay, well, what are the things that I'm not that great at,

that aren't my priorities, that aren't the most life-giving, that I don't lose track of time doing, and how do we mitigate that by partnering with others and finding resources and solves, you know, software and programs to help you overcome some of those things that maybe you aren't naturally great at. Yeah, man, I think that's great.

I love it. Last question is really about raindrop. You know, I love what your company stands for, the values that you guys have, you know. What would you say in your role? How do you go about instilling those values? How do you go about making sure that the values at Reindrop aren't just words printed on a wall? You know, because I visit with clients and they always have, you know, it's an acronym. It spells something.

It's like, okay, but I mean, it sounds good, but how do you guys take, you know, what's on paper and bring it to life within your organization? I agree. So we have three values. It's very simple. Create strategically, partner generously, and own your own future. And I think the partner generously and own your future actually speaks into what it means to be a great follower, you know, and elite great leader, mind you, you know. But I think it really allows followers. to be like, this is what I can give is I can give myself away.

You know, I can partner generously. I can stay later or I can, you know, step up when there's a need. And then when we own your future, it's like, okay, how do I own my future? I have to get, I have to get out of my own way, you know? I have to like actually believe in myself. I have to like try something new and fail a couple times, you know? Right. And so I think the way that we really try to instill our very,

values is every week at our status meeting with all of our employees, we try to embed them throughout our status, not in a cheesy way and being like, okay, don't forget, partner generously. But we actually tell the stories of people of how they're partnering generously, right? So like, hey, you know, people will submit these shoutouts and oftentimes they're embedded in these raindrop shoutouts. So it would be like, hey, thanks so-and-so for partnering generously when you came to the set and you brought X, Y, and Z.

Like, we couldn't have done it without you. Like, there's these moments where you're like, okay, like, I'm telling, I think people and leaders need to tell the story, if that makes sense. Like, we need to give it flesh. And I think that, because we are inherently storytellers and story receivers, you know, and that's how we remember things. And so I think that's one of the key ways in which we try to instill that. And I think it just really fits well.

I think this question is nice because the own, your future aspect of following is like followers aren't necessarily like the idea of followership isn't like someone's just going to tell you what to do and you do it. I think the premise of followership is to become a leader. Right. And so what that means is I have to think intentionally about how I behave, what I say, what I do, you know, how I respond, how I receive feedback. How do I care and partner with other people?

You know, how do I receive advice from others? And I think that is actually the core elements and aspects of a leader, truly. You know, and so they're actually pretty synonymous. But the goal is for followers to turn into leaders and to remember that it's a continual journey along the way. I love it. I love it, man. Well, dude, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day in SoCal. I'm sure the weather is amazing there.

It's not too bad in Texas. I heard of snowing in Minnesota. Yeah, totally. Oh, dude, snowing in October. It's just unbelievable. But, dude, thanks so much for your time today, man. I really appreciate it. You're brilliant, by the way.

I mean, you just have, I feel like I could ask you questions all day long, but I don't want to take up all of your day. But, dude, thank you so much, man. You've been a blessing to all of the followership listeners today. And, man, I really, really appreciate it. Hey, all you listeners out there, thank you so much for listening to Episode 4, a followership with Ryan League, my good friend, Danny Kim was on here, dropping knowledge. The show notes for today's episode will be on RyanLeak.com slash followership.

If today's episode added value to your life, may it do us a favor. Why don't you go ahead and rate, review, subscribe, or share with a friend. Until next time, have a fantastic day.