The Ryan Leak Podcast - The Uncanny Way of Climbing the Ladder of Success with Lacey Stenson

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

This season we are interviewing people we think are next-level in light of Ryan's new book called Leveling Up: 12 Questions to Elevate your Personal and Professional Development. Today's episode is with Lacey Stenson, who is the master of helping other people go to the next level. After getting her MBA from Stanford, she did nonprofit work to build 11 schools in Uganda. Since then, she's had her hand in running 3 law firms, starting a medical research organization, being the Chief People Officer at a financial services firm, and now spearheading six businesses for an elite entrepreneur. What Lacey has figured out is the best way to climb the ladder is to help others climb it first. 

Welcome to followership with Ryan Leak. Leveling Up Edition. We are looking at different chapters in my latest book to help the other side of leadership. There's so many different resources out there, leadership. Not a whole lot out there for everybody that's following those leaders. That's what this podcast is designed for. Just had a book. Came out.

Leveling up, 12 questions to elevate your personal. and professional development. And I've decided that for the next few episodes, I wanted to have people on the podcast that embody what I would consider to be next level living, next level relationships, and embody one of the chapters of the book. So chapter seven is whose dream can I support?

That's a question I think we all should be asking ourselves. And the person that I think embodies that the most. In fact, I talk about this person in the book. So we kind of have a celebrity on the podcast today. Lacey Sensen is joining us. And you've heard from Lacey if you've listened to any of our previous podcast. She interviewed me through the entire chasing failure series on followership.

But when thinking about the kind of person that wakes up every day, thinking about how can I help other people, I couldn't think of anybody more than Lacey's Sintz. So Lacey, welcome once again. to followership with Ryan Lee. Also, also, I'm not done with this intro yet, Lacey. I'm not done. You are also backed by popular demands. Today, you still have the most listens of any podcast we've ever recorded.

So you're an alum of the followership podcast. So we're excited to have you on once again. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Lacey Sitsynne. Thanks, Ryan. This is going to be so fun. I always love talking to you. Lacey, the first time we recorded an episode, what were you doing with your life?

And what are you doing with your life now? Give us the before and after. Give people some context. Feel free to brag. I told you to do it. I know that's so anti who you are as a human being. You're probably squirming thinking about bragging right now. but let people know what you do now.

Yeah, sure. Gosh, last time we spoke, I released out as chief of staff and our chief people officer for a finance firm here in Minneapolis. And now I am back kind of in a different but similar role. I work very, very closely with a prior boss of Biden and huge mentor named Peter Attia. and I really run all new ventures. So six or seven different companies that he owns, their teams, their operations.

And then I really sit as head of family office. So I also manage all things on the personal side of how he spends his money, investments that he makes, and just coordination of a lot of things that people don't find that interesting, like tax and finance. And then I leave a, gosh, I would almost call it a 15, 20% margin in my life

to make sure that I have enough time to work on fun projects and fun people. So I do a lot of really cool projects throughout the week as well, picking and choosing who to support. So a bit of a 180, but still there's a common thread in my life of where I end up and who I work with, which is pretty fun. That's awesome. So I've known you as a person that just seems to bend over backwards

for human beings in general. at first I thought maybe she's just being nice to me but it's just like no this is who you and Nick just are like you guys figure out a way to rally around other people's dreams where does that mindset even come from like even thinking about

you know you hear me speak at Eaglebrook Church you reach out hey let's connect we connect, and immediately your mindset is, hey, how can I help Ryan go to the next level? And honestly, I'm inspired by that mindset of going, when I meet with people, that should be how I think. Like, how can I help this person go to the next level? And thinking about what I get to do now around the country

with so many different companies and a lot of the introductions that you made, I think like when people go, man, how do I grow my business? I just go, I wish I had a rubric. I wish I could give you a one, two, three step. But I would just give you one. You got a no lacy sense. I can't.

I wish I could just tell you like I just got awesome at something. Like I really did it, you know? But I think that is the power of really support. supporting other people. So where does that mindset come from? Like how do you, was that natural? Was it nurtured? Where does that come from for you?

Yeah, gosh. You know, I feel like we are so fortunate to live in the time that we live in because it feels like we're now really able to be one persona. So when you think about who you are in life, you now get to be that person in work. I feel like we're tearing down some of those very traditional walls that you have to like flip on for work. You have to wear certain things and talk a certain way and behave a certain way. And I think a lot of organizations are doing some really incredible long overdue work to let their employees show up as who they are.

And so I think I just never played by those rules. And I've been really fortunate in selecting people to work with and companies to work for that have just let me. be me and use their company and our employees and our resources, just as I do in my personal life. I come from a family of immigrants. My father is Italian. My grandma only spoke Italian. And I don't know. Oh, yeah, I don't know if, you know, like, immigrant families, but we are cheap. Like, they are cheap people. And I just always grew up with this persona that nothing is, nothing is free and nothing is easy to come by. And so I just remember when we were really little, I just have this room.

I do have a remarkable father. And nothing was ever free. So if somebody did something for us, my dad would find a way to do something to give back to them. And we didn't have a lot of money growing up. My mom was a public school teacher. So any dollars that we had always went back to the school system to buy mittens for kids who didn't have mittens or school decorations because schools so underfund their teachers.

But so I was with my dad. I mean, nights and weekends, my dad very skilled. My dad is so skilled in construction. And so if somebody cooked us dinner because my mom was sick or somebody was traveling in my family, my dad was over there fixing their sink or building a wall or tearing down wallpaper. And so I learned really early on

that you always have something to give back to somebody. It doesn't always have to be buying them something or or giving them time and money. And then I think I learned early on that like it's, it's better to just be direct and ask people like what they need rather than guessing and spending so much time and energy. So that's really carried over. My first job, right, out of kind of law school was in Africa. I worked in Africa for five years. And I think that really also kind of taught me like the littlest things

go the farthest with people and there you don't have a lot of things you don't have things to give people so the best thing I could do was be intentional and to listen to people and I learned to watch a lot of kids like that sounds so dumb Ryan but like

you watch a lot of kids when you don't have a lot of things to do because people just need to go work or you educate a lot of kids and that also has as transpired over into life. So then I went through a series of jobs, right? And you know this because you and I are such good friends and you do this too. It's I listen before I like ask what people need. I really try to like hit the nail on the head of what is it that you need. But the reverse of that is like knowing what

people do, right? I think you do this really well as well as like in your 20s, you go through this phase where everybody gets a job out of college and you're like, oh, what do you? I'm an engineer. And you're like, I don't know what that means. Right. And you're like, oh, I'm going to law school. I'm doing this. I'm going to be a doctor. And you kind of just zone out. And then at 25, you realize everybody has jobs, but nobody knows what people do. It reminds me of friends where like Chandler is a transponder of numbers, right? Nobody knows what Chandler does and friends. And so I just really started to get to know what my community is doing. Like my neighbor, Melissa, like, what is her job? My friend Brandon. Like, he works at Zoom.

like what does he actually do? And then you start to realize who has the right skills, you know, and not everybody has the skill at their job. Like my friend Eric is just, he's just good energy. So when people are down, it sounds so silly. We host, I was just telling you that actually we had a Christmas party this weekend. Eric has to come. Like Eric has to come to every party that we have because Eric will walk out of their

having touched five or six different lives with just his energy. He's just such a good energy source that people are like, dude, your friend Eric is awesome, right? And so I think just my husband and I have learned that we can be a conduit for other people's skills and resources and time, but you really have to be careful to not create chaos, right? To know like why you're connecting people and what is the need. I don't know.

I don't know if that's like helpful, but that's always just been my mindset, Ryan. Like, have something. And you know me well enough to know everything I have is everybody else's. So I try to say that as much as I possibly can. Anything I have is yours. So my time is yours. You know, anything that we own.

We're quick to lend it or give it away for sure. That's awesome. So let me ask you this for the person that has some concerns about their own career path, what advice would you give to them? Yeah. Gosh, you know, I don't know if this is like true anymore. I'm getting old, Ryan. I'm going to be 40 in like a year. So I don't know what like the young kids think anymore. But I never, I was never attracted to sales. That was just not something, I didn't know anybody in the sale. I'm from a really small town near Aspen. And so if you wanted to be like a dentist, it was like Chelsea's dad. So it was like, are you going to be Chelsea's dad? Are you going to be

Brenda's mom who's like, you know, the grocery store owner? Like those were, that's how we thought. We thought about people and their profession. We didn't have a lot of dentists to think about, so to speak. I just didn't know anybody in sales. And when I had heard about it in college, it's just not who I am. I'm very quiet and very shy and introverted, as you know, right? And so I think we're taught in like early profession or college that salespeople have to be good at business development and they have to be good at networking, which creates this really gross feeling, if that's not your jam, if that's not something you like to do. And then you learn that there's like tools like Salesforce that help you remember that Jacks is this year's old and this is

his birthday. And so every time you call Ryan, like make sure you remember to drop his kid's name. And right, and that just never felt authentic to me. And really good salespeople can do it in an authentic manner that is authentic to them. And so I had to have a different strategy. when I was young as to like how to build a brand for who I am. And to me, building a brand is just like letting people know who you are. It's not this fabricated social media. What's my brand? Do I have a logo?

What's my colors? How do I show up? I just wanted to be known for who I was. And it sounds so silly. So I just really got to know my coworkers. Like when I went to accounting to get my paycheck back in the day, you had to get your paycheck because it didn't go in the bank account. I just spent five minutes talking to the accounting team and you just get to know people.

You know, I probably grow up and am growing up with a different mentality. I don't think people stay at companies for lifetimes. I don't think it's bad to leave a company and I don't think it's bad if your employees want to leave. And so I just always grew up knowing that everybody that I work with is eventually going to work somewhere else. And I've moved so many times in my life that I've learned like everywhere you go, you need to meet new people and they're going to leave and you're going to leave. And so you just kind of build this web of people. But I think my advice would be really just showing up for your vendors and your

partnerships and your employees and your bosses that you work with. Those really become this community when you fast forward of people and tools and resources that you can utilize. And it's not this like salesy process. That's like Ryan lost his job. So now I've got to call my buddy Mike. who's the recruiter at LinkedIn. Like, you've got to go work at LinkedIn.

Like, it doesn't work that way. I get to know you and your skills of like, well, Ryan, what do you want? Like, what did you do? What did you not like doing? What did you not like about your old company? And then I'm just going into the Rolodex of like, gosh, my friend went through a similar change.

He's at this company. You should ask about his experience. Or, gosh, I don't know how to edit an engineer resume. You should talk to my friend who's a recruiter at this engineer firm for what she looks for in a resume with engineers. And so truly my advice is like, I don't think you have to go have lunch with the CEO and like rub shoulders to be the next thing in the organization.

I think the real work in my experience is like on the ground level, going to lunch and knowing your partners. If it's the company that makes your envelopes, I got to know them. And so everybody has an origin story with me of like, remember when you used to just call me and order 20? 25 envelopes a month. And I'm like, I do. You were great at envelopes, you know.

And so I don't know if that's maybe too easy of some advice. But I think where I'm at today, it sounds so silly. I remember our insurance person. Like it was yesterday when I was 24 who sold us insurance. I went to lunch with them. And I was like, look, I've been tasked to take an insurance plan because I'm somehow an accountant who like has, oh my God. My boss says I'm supposed to be able to do this.

I don't know anything about insurance. And she was so kind. And she walked me through everything in the insurance world. And she became this pillar of knowledge for me. And the next two companies, I wasn't able to bring her business. It just didn't make sense. And she knew that. And she still sat down with me.

But the fourth company, I was able to choose and pick. And of course I went to her. Of course, she's at three different companies now. It's not even her. Right? She's like, climbed the ladder. I've climbed the ladder. bit. And so it's just like, I need

insurance. Who do you have on your team? And I know her quality of human. And so that's my advice. That makes sense. Would you say? Was that exactly? I got another question for you. I'm still trying to and you were in the meeting

where I found out that apparently I'm an introvert. Yeah. Remember that meeting? It was like, what? And I feel like that a half-truth

I feel like where I'm at now is I'm in like conservation mode all the time. I feel like I'm constantly conserving my energy but I feel like I used to be extroverted but then I now I just feel drained all the time because of all of the work that I'm doing and like kids and merit

you know it's just like all of these things require a high level of energy that like I feel like I have to pick and choose and it's interesting, I have this theory that the world rewards extroverts. People that can be outgoing, people that can knock on somebody's door and sell them a vacuum, people that can have this sort of persona that sometimes,

I feel like it can be hard for introverts to kind of find their way, in the workplace. What advice would you give to, what's one or two things that you would encourage introverts listening to this podcast? I think a lot of followers can find themselves in an introverted space

or go to their job, but they're not the ones to make a lot of noise about being good at their job. So what would you speak to your fellow introverts for a few moments? Yeah, you know, it's just my experience being one person

I don't think a lot of decisions are actually made in meetings. I think that it appears like a lot of decisions are made in meetings because it's a collective place to have discussion, but I've seen too many decisions changed behind closed doors or CEOs go and change. I think that meetings are really a place of public consensus. They're more like town halls, right? Which is like, let's hear from the people.

who feel they need to be heard. And it's amazing. Because I think sometimes in meetings, it's only the best way to truly get an awareness of where your peers are. You're like, oh, shoot, Bob. I didn't know that's where your head was at in that, right? And so I think I learned early on,

although I've been very fortunate. Every role I've had, I've been in a small company. I think the best thing you can do sometimes is start out in small companies because you can gain confidence a lot faster than larger companies. But I learned and continue to learn and continue to practice

that I think influence, the greatest amount of influence actually comes through preparation and reflection. And that's constantly compromised when you're rushing that process. And so I've probably more times than I can count really sat back in meetings

unless I'm asked to influence discussion. I always try to meet with my boss or you know, you and I've been in some meetings. I'm like, what do you need for me? I'll play any role you want me to play. But I've really tried to do my due diligence before big decisions need to be made. And then after meetings are had or I think decisions are about to be made, I like send emails. I'm the queen of memos and emails. I can have one-off conversations really, really well because I think it's just a calmer environment for me. to say, hey, right, what are we thinking about this? Or, you know, after listening to that meeting,

where's your head at? I feel like I have a better chance of success at influencing and showing up as myself and those one-on-one discussions. Then I do in a meeting trying to like shout a 30-second sound bite that comes across is Simon Senecky, right? Where everybody's like, wow, she got it, nail on the head.

And so I think I've just really learned the right environments to show up as an introvert knowing that extroverts have their environments. It tends to be meetings. It tends to be all staff meetings. It tends to be group experiments. I've just learned that. And I've done a really good job teaching my boss to expect this of me as well.

They don't have to tolerate it. They just know that this is who I'm going to be. I'll send you an email after the meeting of like, I think Brian was right. I agree with this point of view. This wasn't brought up. Is there more questions I would be asking myself if I was in your shoes before I'm making.

a decision. Here's some data that I brought in, you know, headed into this meeting where we were talking about the customer experience. I met with the operations team. I pulled this data and, you know, I didn't know if people were going to bring that to the meeting. So I wanted to know how many users we have or how many people listen to this podcast episode. And so when you fast forward today, who I am in this company, my last company, you know, was a couple hundred people that you and I talked a lot about and I had a lot of influence there. I think I really just didn't show up in the way

that you would expect a CEO or COO to show up. CEOs tend to be very vibrant. COOs tend to be very introverted and reflective. But I found ways to support our staff. I pull people one-on-one and I let them know how amazing they are. I tend not to do it in a big all-staff meeting. It comes across very fabricated. When I talk about how proud I am to the team,

Everybody's like, what is she doing? Take the mic away. And so people are more used to me calling them after meetings and really saying, gosh, Ryan, I am so proud of the work that you're doing when so-and-so said this, when we pass the mic to your boss, I just want you to know, it's something we know about you and we've seen about you. And I'm so glad so-and-so was able to share it with the company. I just have never chased the spotlight being an introvert. So I see that in you, Ryan. Like I see, right, like you can get on stage and deliver these incredible messages. but the best coaching I've ever had and the moments you've impacted my life the most tend to be in these 30-second sound bites you and I have just riffing, right? Or in the 20-minute conversation in the lobby before you get on stage or when I call you because I'm frustrated about something.

I think introverts have a unique way of that one-on-one relationship and I'd hate to see introverts, especially followers trying to build their career, trying to be something they're not. I actually think you have to kind of lean in and connect in the lunchroom, be bold,

and ask people to go to coffee, send emails. I shared this on the last podcast. Nobody's going to email you and say, hey, Ryan, I noticed you didn't say one thing in a 200-person meeting. Did you have extra thoughts that you wanted to share with me? I think you really have to be mature in how you communicate that.

You have to dial down the emotion sometimes so we can all be very passionate. But I think in raising your hand silently, it can get you really, far, not climbing a ladder per se, but getting you really far and influence and responsibility. And I think that's all really what we should chase is greater responsibility, broader accountability, not necessarily different titles and seniority, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, I love that. Last question for you. Who is somebody along your journey that you want

to brag about that has supported a dream of yours? gosh, you know, I've been so fortunate. I think I don't know what it was early on in my career. I have a really low tolerance for uncomfortable situations that I just don't feel like I'm good at or companies that I feel like just haven't gotten it right. I think my dad really hammered that into me in sports when I wasn't good at sports or I didn't enjoy them. He always made me stick out the commitment, but he never, he like never forced me to like try and get better.

And I think I really applaud him for that because I think even today as companies, we try to force people to get better at their weakness versus leaning into like what's your strength. So I think that carried over into really allowing me to choose really good environments and to leave when I felt like this wasn't going to promote growth for me personally or there was just conflicts with personal values or something. thing. So I've been really fortunate. I think where I'm back today, I'm back in a role with a CEO who really, really invested in my growth when I was in my 20s into my 30s. And Peter has done outrageously generous things to get me through different hurdles. And that's everything. I mean, still, 15 years later, he just did this six, six, seven, eight weeks ago. I just remember he called me and he's like, do you feel in control of the train that you're driving right now?

And I was like, I don't feel in control of this train. And he's like, I think everybody thinks you're in control of the train. So that's great. But I've known you for too long to know, like something's not clicking for you. And he was right. My balance, this like dedication to balance that I pride myself in around leaving margin in my day to work out, leaving margin in my day to show up for my daughter at school, leaving margin in my day to show up for my husband,

and leaving margin in my week to be able to drop off dinners and pick up other kids and to watch babies. He just knew looking at me that that had gone out the window based on some very huge deadlines at work. I mean, multimillion dollar deadlines. And he was the first one to call it out. And he blew up his schedule in the next four hours to like rebuild the leadership team focus

on how time and tasks were being delegated because he felt like I was being marginalized around what I had set for my goal as myself of health. And he's like, look, she's not delegating enough. So if we care about her being here in the next two or three years, we've got to figure this out immediately. And so I think sometimes it's that. And I think just it wasn't a work dream.

I think sometimes we're also focused like, you know, you always say, right, like, it's not always about work. It's always about also the personal side, which can lead to some benefits at work and benefits of work can lead to things in personal life. I think having somebody like that who sees you as a person first before they see you as a tool or an asset to a company, that's who you want to work for. Because I promise you, when you know yourself really well, when you're really healthy as a human and you know your margins and you know your lanes, you will show up unbelievable at work and you will show up unbelievably.

So, yeah, he comes to mind amongst others. But like I said, I've been so fortunate from bosses to, I mean, I just, you know, I shared the story with you the last time we talked. My last company being at the very, very top, my favorite people were our 20-year-olds that were brand to the organization because they just had to. an innocence. And so I would say mentorship, menteeship, it goes both ways. And I think

I'd be remiss to even not acknowledge that a lot of times people that have built me up in my career or supported me tend to be half my age sometimes, right? No, but I love that. I think that that's important for people to really understand is

I think support can go multiple directions. I don't think it has to be so I'm the mentor and I'm going to impart my wisdom into you young child. You know, I think that I think it's a mindset of just really serving other people. And I think that that actually can take you further than trying to figure out what's in it for you. Totally. And I know one time you and I and Whitney, we talked about this game called Yes and versus Noba, right?

And I think about that a lot. It was like this game I learned in grad school. And I think having gone through that game, I was way too late in life. I was late 20s, early 30s. You do this so well, Ryan, and it's so casual. So I want to talk about it because I think it's such a small, actionable tool that anybody listening to this podcast can do.

When somebody tells you something, whether it's I want to do this or I found inspiration from this person or first thing out of your mouth should and could always be, yeah, you'd be great at that. You should do that. That's only, you should do it. How do we do that? Versus, I think, we're so in the mindset of problem solving analysis, critiquing, that, like, without thinking about it, sometimes the first thing out of our mouth is no, but, right?

Like, no, you can't do that. So back to your analogy a couple minutes ago, I think the best thing you could honestly do is like tell somebody after after they get off the stage, you killed it. You did great. If somebody tells you they're worried about something, they want to launch something,

or they just read this great book, and it makes, I think the best thing you can do is say, let's do it, how do we do it? What do we do? I think just that spark of confidence and inspiration, it goes a long way.

And as we know, even when you're on stage, sometimes you don't have confidence or when you're a CEO, sometimes you don't have confidence in your decision. So hearing it from your junior, junior, junior, junior analyst.

Sometimes it just reminds you, okay, I can do this, and you're building into a dream that otherwise you thought maybe they were overly confident in. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I've never met anybody that didn't need some sort of encouragement. Isn't that sort of? I've never met anybody. I was like, I'm all encouraged out.

Sorry, like, move on to see. I don't think that's a thing. Yes, well, even your spouse, right? Nick and I talk about this all the time. I don't know if you and Amanda are the same way, but I'm like, just maybe you could tell me I'm a good mom today because your 9-year-old did not offer it up. She did not wake out of bed today.

And tell me that I was okay today as a mom. And so I think too, your spouse, your kids, you know, everybody. I think everyone should be asking this question, whose dream can I support? I think that could be somebody you share a cubicle with, somebody you share a Zoom with, somebody you live with, somebody you raise, somebody you're dating. I think to have a mindset of going, man, I want to support other people.

I think that mindset helps you go to the next level. So Lacey, thank you so much for being on followership with Ryan Lee. And ladies and gentlemen, if you want to pick up a copy of leveling up, you can do so wherever books are sold. And since you're listening to this podcast, you might be more of a listener. than a reader. So you could also just get it on Audible. And it's me recording it. I went into a studio for an ungodly amount of time to read this book. And they kept saying I was reading it too fast. So I kept having to start over and go really slow and pronunciate every single word. And then I would speed up again and get back to myself and all that. So anyways, I hope that

today's episode added value to your life and career in some way, shape, form. If it did, subscribe, like, share with a friend, and we'll see you next time.