The Ryen Russillo Podcast - ABA Stories: Part 1 | With Julius Erving and Terry Pluto

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

In Part 1 of a two-part series, Ryen Russillo talks with Basketball Hall of Fame legend Julius Erving about his time playing for the Virginia Squires, his famous Atlanta Hawks exhibition games, the "Ice Man" George Gervin, ABA fist fights, winning an ABA title with the New York Nets, and finding his basketball “home” in Philadelphia (3:30). Then Ryen talks with Terry Pluto, renowned sportswriter and author of ‘Loose Balls: The Short, Wild Life of the American Basketball Association,’ about the fast-and-loose ABA, its aggressive competition with the NBA, chaotic drafts, money troubles, ever-present merger rumors, and so much more (40:15). If you would like to donate to the Dropping Dimes Foundation click HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, you know this podcast is going to be a little bit different with that music coming in. That is uncopyrighted funk that Kyle found for our special two-part ABA Stories podcast here on The Ryan Rosillo Show, part of Ringer and Spotify. So Loose Balls is the book that came out in 1990, and the author Terry Pluto is going to join us in this episode. We have Dr. J, we have Rod Thorne, artist Gilmore, and the legendary Bob Costas, who was calling these games fresh out of college. And I had never read it, which is funny because I had read 48 Minutes, which is another incredible basketball book by Terry Pluto and Bob Ryan. And it was the first book that I read that I thought, man, do I like sports so much that maybe I would do this?

I was like, well, I'll probably play in the NBA, so I'm not going to worry about this part of it right now. But yeah, 48 minutes blew my mind and I just never read Loose Balls. And yet I have so many friends that work in the business that have talked about their favorite sports books. Everyone who's ever done anything in sports and references their list of their favorite sports books, they've always mentioned Loose Balls. So finally this year, I just go, you know what, I'm going to read it. And I'm glad because now I understand why it's there. The stories are incredible. It's about a league that went from 1967 to 1976

that you can't believe even lasted that long. It led to the merger that brought the NBA, the Spurs, the Pacers, the Nuggets, and the Nets. And maybe more important than any of those teams, it brought the league, Dr. J, who we're going to talk to on this episode. It's a league where the stories, you just can't believe it happened. You can't believe the number of franchises, the number of ownership turnovers, the number of

owners that were basically only trying to be an owner when they knew they couldn't pay the bills, hoping to get that NBA merger cash. But then when you look at the players and realize that there's so many Hall of Famers, basketball Hall of Famers that started in the ABA, it reminds you of how dismissive we can all be when something is new. I have no doubt. Now, granted, this league is way before my time. I have no doubt that if I had a talk show in 1967,

I, like a lot of NBA people, would have been dismissive going, oh, this ABA league, this is stupid. It's a gimmick. Look at the ball, the three-point line. You know, these players aren't the same. NBA teams would destroy these guys. And that's what everybody used to say back then.

But as you read the book and hear the stories and the guys that played in both leagues, you start to realize that the ABA did an incredible job putting together talent and also a great job of putting together some legendary stories. So you're going to hear all of those coming up right now. The man that has turned the slam dunk into an art, who has thrilled ABA fans with moves that have been beyond comprehension. At 6'6", for the New York Nets, the fabulous Dr. J. Julius Erving. The great Dr. J. Julius Erving, Hall of Famer.

And I want to focus on, as we run through the ABA portion of this special podcast, where you were at, you're playing in New York. How did you end up at UMass? It was interesting. Their head coach there was a guy named Jack Lehman, who actually played at Boston University with a guy named Ray Wilson. And Ray Wilson was my high school coach. So they were teammates in college. They were good friends. And once I visited UMass, the relationship just spilled over to me.

It was either going to go to St. John's, stay home and go to St. John's, or get away, big campus experience. And UMass Amherst offered that, and that became my choice. But the relationship was probably the most important thing. So at UMass, and for those that need a little reminder of our guy here, I mean, you're 26-20, I think, in the two years you played there, points and rebounds. It's unbelievable. And then as you're kind of hearing about your story, it's like, OK, so we know the NBA is not going to take underclassmen. The ABA is trying to do whatever they can. And yet you're still really off the radar where people are like, yeah, I guess we don't know what to do.

Were you as aware of how off the radar you were nationally as a basketball player, as it seemed as reality was at that time. Well, you know, once again, you know, they, they, they pre-pick player of the year NCAA and, and they came to UMass because of my statistics, my sophomore year and my junior year. And they told me and my statistics, my sophomore year and my junior year. And they told me and my coach, they said, you're going to be on our magazine cover next year. And that would have been my senior year.

As it turned out, since I left school, Randy Denton was the guy who they picked to become the player of the year in the 6'10". Caucasian guy with curly hair. Do you remember him? That's a little before my time. Sounds like a great look, though. And they put his picture there, where my picture was supposed to be,

because I left and I went and signed a secret contract with the Virginia Squires and became an ABA player. And I didn't even know a whole lot about the ABA. It was just an overnight visit in a hotel room or motel room in Philadelphia and two days later you know I was signed sealed and liberated on my way to the pros yeah because there's a lot of different versions of that story like Louis Karaseka again was was somehow involved in it and you had a couple people that were handling your business. And then you've got, what was it, Earl Foreman, who owned the Squires at the time.

So help me understand how many moving parts were going on. As you're like, actually, I'm out. I want to go play and make some money finally. So there were a lot of moving parts. And probably the biggest one was after my sophomore year playing in the Olympic development program and going to Denver, Colorado, being an alternate. It was the Colorado Springs, actually, being an alternate and not only making the team, but leading the team and scoring and rebound. And we had three seven footers on the team, several Baptiste and Joby Wright. And these guys were big names at the time.

Paul Westfall was a teammate during that time. And so we're, we're all sophomores and we're like the next wave of Olympians for the 72 Olympic Games. And this was in 70 when they started developing the team. So we go to Russia, Poland, Finland. We play 13 games. I think we win 10, lose three to older, more experienced players because the Russian national team didn't have boys.

They had men. So having that experience kind of put me on the radar to a degree. And then I came back the next year, had good numbers. Team was 23-3, got invited to the N the nit then we get blown out by north carolina and north carolina shouldn't even even have been there they just decided not to go to the ncaa because they didn't want to play ucla i guess so um you know so so my individual story, you know, came to a crossroad at that time because after my junior year, you know, I did get the call. And I did consult with Coach Conasecker, who my friend Earl Mosley, who was good friends and we believed in Lou. And during our time when I was being recruited

out of high school you know Lou took a liking to me right and and and so we had a relationship even though I played for another college and as it turned out uh he gave his advice he said stay in school you know plan up your college ball college ball and you'll be all right. You know, probably would be a first round draft. As it turned out, he left St. John's that year and went to coach the Nets. So so he left school, but he was telling me to stay in school. So so we had to joke about it at the end of the day. And, uh, you know, I, I left and I, and, um, I feel like, um, I feel like this time it was,

it was important to become a, you know, athlete who was a student instead of a student athlete, athlete student, you know, put athletics first. Um, and I got offered a really good contract, uh, compared to what guys were making then compared to what my parents were making. So it definitely was financially driven. And I didn't know, I mean, I, I didn't know. I just, I was just a kid at that time. Um, and uh, and I had no illusions about being an all star being an all pro being a hall of famer. You know, I was just ready to get in and try to do the work.

So you get to Virginia, 1971, 72 season, you're 21 years old. And the way it reads from the book, Johnny Kerr is the GM of the Squires and for those that may remember that name and not remember the ABA part of it was what the Bulls called yeah Johnny Red Kerr exactly and you show up to this this workout that's still kind of like a tryout so you're going to be on the team but there's other people that are working out and it's in Richmond. And the ball goes up in the air for somebody else. You fly over everybody, grab the rebound, cup it with one hand, throw it down, dunk on everyone. And no one else had even reacted yet. And Kerr goes, that's the best basketball player I've ever seen. And they're like,

get them out of here. So we don't want them playing with me. Do you you remember that specific play i'm sure there are many plays like that but do you remember that first camp where people were like who the hell is this guy yeah it was a open tryout and uh and and i was obviously invited because i already had a signed contract uh willie sojourner was uh drafted uh so he was uh he was there and then a kid from Indiana. I can't remember his name right now, but he was drafted. So those two guys were signed. So we had three guys who were already signed and then it was open tryouts, you know, so we had guys coming from everywhere, you know, the Rucker League or Washington DC League, California,

summer leagues and whatever. And I had, when I got to that camp, I had played in I got to that camp, I had played in the Rucker League. So I left school, uh, school ends in May. Rucker League is, you know, June, July, part of August. So I go there and I play. So now I'm playing against pros. And, uh, I'm, I'm getting a lot of confidence because when i when i left school uh the two years that i played varsity basketball were the two seasons when the dunk shot was taken out of

college basketball because they on trying to perfect getting near the hoop and just going up, dunking the ball, and running down court. So I couldn't do that in college. And the second year, we couldn't dunk in the warm-up line. So it was a little crazy. It was way different, way different, right? When I got to the Rugby League, it was open season. It was just like the chains were taking off.

I felt like the Incredible Hulk, you know, a skinny Hulkster. So I'm going in, I'm dunking on people, and I'm getting a reputation up in Harlem because they hadn't seen me play much in college. We played Fordham and a couple of city schools. I'm getting a reputation up in Harlem because they hadn't seen me play much in college. We played Fordham and a couple of city schools. But, you know, this was totally different because this was the best of the playgrounds. You know, guys from the Knicks would be there, guys from other NBA teams were there,

Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, what have you. So, you know, strutting your stuff against the big boys just built up a lot of confidence. And then it led to that training camp in Virginia in which that play happened. And the trainer actually, he said, you know, Al Bianchi was the coach. He said, you know, you need to take him out because these guys are going to try to hurt him, you know, and, and that's what it was. It was really a defensive move. Cause they said, you know, there's a lot of guys here who aren't going to make it. And there's a lot of guys who just have a physical presence and you know, they weren't going to take it.

Getting embarrassed. They were not going to be happy. So I, so I ended up sitting out most of the time and waiting for the real training camp to happen in which, you know, Charlie Scott, Fatty Taylor, Bernie Williams, Neil Johnson, Jumbo Jim Akins, and there were guys who I played with in Virginia, George Irvin. You know, they were all there.

And then I was sort of like, you know, second to Charlie Scott, you know, they were all there. And then I was sort of like, you know, second to Charlie Scott, you know, who had been All-American in North Carolina. And he was, you know, he was one of the leading scorers in the ABA. And I think that year he averaged 33. And my average was maybe like 28. But not too long ago, he finally went into the hall of fame which was well-deserved honor for him before i jump back into the aba thing i'm glad you brought up rucker and and everything because i i'm not going to pretend that i know you um i've read about you

forever i've watched you for years i think we've even done you know all the different interviews everybody always talks about your graciousness you're just you're a guy who's always gotten it as a teammate as a leader um the way you've carried yourself was there ever a moment though as a young kid just dunking on everybody at rucker dunking on legends where you were like this is fucking cool like i feel i feel awesome about myself. You know, yeah, the chest out, the chest bumping and all of that, you know, that really wasn't my stick. You know, I think Ray Wilson and then eventually Jack Lehman,

before I mentioned, guys, they were disciplinarians, and they were purists in terms of how they taught the game and how they played the game themselves. And Jack, in all his modesty, he said when he was in college, he played against Jerry West, and his claim to fame was he held him to 25 in the first half. Jerry West. And his claim to fame was he held him to 25 in the first half. So it wasn't about bragging on yourself. It was really about dealing with the reality that if you play this game, sometimes you're going to win. Lots of times you're not going to win. But don't take it as a loss and be sorry about it. Just take it as a non-success and be success driven rather than being ego driven. So, you know, my mom was another one who always would put me in my place. I mean, she, she used to attend the games in the Nassau Coliseum because, you know,

you live in Long Island. And I went to baseline, on a baseline one play, and she was sitting courtside and I got knocked down and they called me out of bounds and I cursed. Why did I do that 20 feet away from my mom? So at the end of the game,

we all go to dinner, we won the game, blah, blah, blah, and whatever. And she's kind of quiet, you know? Mom, you feeling all right? We won the game. She said,

you remember what you said when you fell or when you stepped out of bounds? That's basically what she said. So she would put me in my place in a hot second. And, you know, that's the oldest stuff that has stuck with me.

Yeah, no, it makes sense. And that's what everybody says. So, you know, a ton of points that rookie year, 31 a game in the second year. The ABA as a league, what's your favorite moment from those first couple years? The thing that stood out, the memories that you'll have about, you know, this league that's trying to compete with the NBA and you discovering yourself as a player and thinking, hey, you know, I'm going to be able to do this a long time and maybe I'll go back to the NBA, you know?

Yeah, that was always the plan that when we were in that secret meeting in Philadelphia, the agent was saying, you know, there's going to be a merge in two years. And it'll just be one big league at that time. And you probably won't be able to get the dollars that you're able to get right now with this contract. And he was believable. We called Bob Wolf. As I said, we called Luke Conaseco.

We made several phone calls from that meeting, you know, where guys were kind of saying the same thing. Yeah, this eventually had to happen. They wouldn't take all the teams in because, you know, there was 14 NBA teams and there were nine ABA teams when I started there. So it was only, you know only 23 teams in the whole country that had pros.

And Europe at that time wasn't counted as being significant in any way because the only time we played against the Europeans or the internationals were when we played in the Olympics and the U.S. would win that every year.

So now these two years that I played in Virginia, something else happened. Because after the first year, my agent was a guy named Irwin Weiner, actually presented me with a contract to play with the Atlanta Hawks because Virginia, like a few ABA teams, you know, had a couple of checks bounced. And so there was always the claim that, you know, there was financial problems within the league. And, you know, there was financial problems within the league. And, you know, some of the coaches were really funny when they tell the stories about, you know,

going to play in Utah one night and, you know, getting information that they can't go to Memphis the next night because Memphis moved to Dallas. Things happened in the night in the NBA very quickly and very loosely. the next night because Memphis moved to Dallas. Things happened in the night in the ABA very quickly and very loosely. You know, Rick Barry tells it best in terms of Oakland going to Washington and then Washington going to Virginia before he even got to Washington. He said, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, and honestly, not to interrupt you, but as you line it up, I mean, a lot of your

contracts, almost all of your contracts were these headline, hey, Julius Irving signs for this or so and so signs for this. And it was all deferred payment. So you are clearly going to be a star in the league. And you went to Earl Foreman after your first year and said, hey, can we find a way to get some of that deferred payment upfront?, I believe from, from what I'd researched. And then once he kind of got upset with you about asking for more. And then after that second year, this is where the Atlanta thing came in, right? Because then you actually showed up for Hawks fans that don't know this,

but a prime Julius Irving shows up to play in some scrimmages or some exhibition games with Atlanta, but Milwaukee had actually drafted you and Wayne Embry. So take us through that whole thing. Yeah, so this was after my first year in Virginia. After my rookie year, I signed with Atlanta. I get a bonus, you know, quarter million dollars, get a car, get an apartment, and get a five-year contract.

And the draft is in June. I signed this contract in May. get an apartment, and get a five-year contract. And the draft is in June. I signed his contract in May. I'm like, this is better than the one I have. My agent, you know, guys listen to the agents in those days. He said, this is the right thing to do. And actually, in retrospect, it's probably not the right thing to do. But he said it was the right thing to do. So I did it.

thing to do so so i did it and um as it turned out uh i go to camp in atlanta conference and just coaching so now you got me pistol p and you got walt bellamy and you got lou hudson so you know you got four guys who are hall of famers who would have been teammates uh for a five-year stretch so who knows what would have happened to the NBA. So as it turned out, we play Houston two exhibition games. And we run up, you know, we're scoring 145, 150 points offensively and giving up maybe 130, 135. We were just running gun up and down. And after those two games, there was a complaint. And it was a complaint that if Atlanta continued to play me,

that they would be fined. And it went to arbitration because at the draft, as it turned out, Atlanta had, you know, I think they had the fifth pick in the draft or maybe the third pick in the draft. And they drafted Steve Bracey, who was a guard. And Milwaukee had the 12th pick. And Milwaukee picked me because I had a history with Wayne Embry from camp. Didn't you beat him in camp when you were in high school or something? I beat him in a palming contest.

They don't say you beat Wayne Embry. So, about to see him come back to play. But, you know, he called me out of a crowd, and I came up. He was like, yeah, man, you got a big hand, blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth. I was 15, 16 years old. And he just remembered it. I stayed in his mind, and he drafted me with that 12th pick.

So if they allowed me to play for Atlanta, they would have been – Milwaukee would have been wasting their pick. And Atlanta should have drafted me with their earlier pick, but they didn't. And they cried foul and said, well, we got this player under contract, so you can't draft him. And they said, we'll see. And as it turned out, the ruling went against the Hawks. And if I was going to play in the NBA, I would have to go to Milwaukee immediately and forget about Atlanta.

So I went back to the ABA, as it turned out, went back to Virginia. And then I played that second year. And Charlie and I were there the second year until he disappeared and went back to Phoenix. And we brought the Iceman in my second year. So George Irvin and i were teammates and you know i mean both of them are hall of famers and but they were both great guys to have on your resume as teammates were there times where you would watch george and see him do something physically and be impressed and then somebody might be like hey hey, you're watching. You were bigger.

You were a better rebounder. But I guess it's kind of weird to ask a superhero, what's it like to be a superhero? Because that's what you guys were like back then. Well, you know, we played one-on-one after practices. And he was always ready to go home. And I was like, he can't go. I want a piece of you.

So I grew up playing a lot of go. I want a piece of you. So, so I, you know, I grew up playing a lot of one-on-one in New York. He grew up playing a lot of one in Detroit. So it was, it was just a matter of our styles melding together, which made us really better teammates because I knew what he liked to do and what he was capable of doing. And he knew the same about me. And I was being a year older and team leader at that time. You know, he just followed orders because I called him my rookie. I was like, Rook, come on over here, man. Let me see this finger roll you got or whatever, you know, this and that.

And we'd just hang out after practice over at the JCC. And we'd still talk about it every time we'd get together, you know, especially when you're around around as a third person. You're like, you're in for a treat. We're going to tell you about how we hung out, you know, that year in Virginia in which we were teammates. Were you ever, I don't want to ask you, Skip, but it was so physical.

Guys are fighting all the time. Were you ever worried that because you were so good so young and you were embarrassing people that somebody was going to try try you like did anybody ever take a swing at you uh yeah yeah a couple times i got i got hit by marise lucas uh had a black eye what happened why did he hit you? I came around. I was chasing the forward. It was either Marvin Barnes or the big guard. They had their, I can't remember who they had.

They had Ron Boone. And I came off of a pick, and he stuck out his elbow. Right? And it catching me right in the eye. So I'm pissed. I'm pissed I'm mad mad as hell so I'm going up there against Maurice Lucas you know and I just lost it man I was trying to I was trying to get to him and we were friends because we were boys right boys we'd go out to dinner you know after games we'd go out to dinner they'd come to Philly go out to dinner go out to dinner after games. We'd go out to dinner. They'd come to Philly, go out to dinner, go out to nightclub or whatever. But I think that had a bonding effect more than anything else

because, you know, I mean, he didn't mean anything by it. It was just how he played. It was just like Rick Mahon and a lot of guys. This is just how they play. They play with their elbows up and sometimes you're gonna get hit with an elbow or a knee or or what have you so um him uh wendell ladner was always a threat and we traded for him kevin lockery said i gotta get this guy on my team. He's going to hurt Doc. And Wendell became a good friend, right? Is he protected?

I rented him one of my – I had some condos. I rented him one of the condos and let him stay there. Just so we had a closeness between us. And then, you know, in 74 and 75, you know, playing went down. It was a sad day. Me and some of my teammates, we all, you know, we all went down to Mississippi to his funeral and tried to give him a great sendoff. But he was, you know, he was a special guy.

But he could hurt you. He could hurt you just by hustling because he just, I mean, he's had reckless abandonment. You know, he was Dennis Rodman before Dennis Rodman, but a much better shooter than Rodman because he could drop a three ball and he could really play basketball. I mean, he was really a solid, solid basketball kid and became a really good teammate so getting him from Kentucky hurt them and helped us and was one of the reasons why you know we won the last championship there's another name that always comes up in all these ABA stories and that's John yeah John Brisker so for for the people listening I'll just introduce him in case people don't know

this is somebody who everybody was afraid of although although Wendell and he would mix it up. And then he ended up with Idi Amin somehow and disappeared, and then people didn't know what was going on. He got into it. He almost wanted to fight Bill Russell, and Bill Russell was his head coach at the Seahawks. So you take it, Julius, in any direction you want to go to, talking to John Brisker.

We don't know what ultimately happened to Brisker. We know he left the country and we thought the destination was somewhere in africa and this was after uh i played five years in the aba so the first two years uh brisket there was a team in pittsburgh and they ended up moving to memphis i believe. So I played against him then. And I always thought that he liked me. He never tried to hurt me, right? Warren Jabali, he liked me too, but he was one of those guys.

The two most feared guys in the ABA were Warren Jabali and John Brisker. And both of them had anger management issues, but they were both extremely talented. Jabali was talented

as any player who ever played with or against. Brisker less so, but he was a load. any player who I ever played with or against um Briscoe less so but you know he was he was

he was a load he was a handful and um and I don't I don't know what happened to him in the end I know

Jabali passed recently last five or six years or whatever but you know he was he was an amazing

ABA guy and um you know I think was an amazing ABA guy. And, you know, I think about so many of the guys who didn't make that transition from the ABA to the NBA. James Silas, you know, was one of them. Ron Boone and just others. Mel Daniels, Bob Nedelecki. You know, there are many who made it and many who didn't make it. And I think because there were only four franchises that went in intact,

and then the rest of the players of the surviving seven franchises got put in a dispersal draft. franchises got put in a dispersal draft. And, you know, to this day, there's still, you know, issues regarding ABA pension and what have you. Next week, I'm actually going to do a call with George Call and, you know, schedule for an hour just to talk about the ABA. and, you know, it's scheduled for an hour just to talk about the ABA. So I appreciate you keeping the ABA alive and being interested, your feelings about the 83 team. I don't know why, you know, we go 12-1 in the playoffs,

and, you know, they didn't even put us in the top 10 NBA best teams. So the 82-83 team that almost won 70 regular season games smashed through all of these great teams in the 80s. It is historically the most overlooked single dominant team in NBA history. It just is. And I don't know. I understand the shadow of the Lakers and the Celtics, but that team with Moses coming over that first year, Julius,

it's one of the best single basketball teams ever, and it never gets enough credit. Yeah. And you got Lee Moses, Maurice Cheeks, Bobby Jones, all going in the Hall of Fame. Andrew Toney was on his way before he got hurt. He'd definitely be a certified Hall of Famer. It was a year when all four of us spent.

It was actually 83 or four of us played in the All-Star game. So I don't know why we get overlooked, but at the end of the day, we know what we did. And I think people who really follow us, they follow us in a very sincere way. And they understand how special that team is. You know, after the second year with the Squires, I get traded with Willie Sojourner, Jumbo Jamaicans, with George Carter and a host of other players. We just lost George Carter last year.

So I got sent information on that, and that was kind of sad. But, you know, I go to the Nets, and, you know, this is a new beginning. I'm going back home. I grew up in Long Island, and the team is Long Island's team. You know, if you grow up in New York, you got to pick between the Mets or the Jets or the Giants or the Knicks or the Rangers or what have you. And, you know, the Nets was sort of like the new kid in town. And when I signed with the Nets and I was just playing in New York,

I just looked at it all as one big bubble. You know, going back home, playing in my backyard, Nassau Coliseum just opened, so it was brand new. The Kevin Lockery, Rod Thorne, Dave DeBuscher, you know, all either coaches or senior management of the Nets. Roy Bowen was the owner, whatever. So we didn't know what was going to happen. We were this team that suddenly put together that had Rick Barry.

And, you know, so, you know, Rick was a dominant player, league leading scorer. So now I'm coming in and I got potential, but I'm not there. We start out one and eight. We start out one and eight and Bill Melchione and Brian Taylor are starting back court.

And we have a team meeting and Kevin is like, what is wrong with you guys? You guys are very talented. You guys, you guys, you guys, you guys. John Williamson stands up and says, you know what's wrong with us? I'm not playing.

So he doesn't play much the next game either, but the game after that, he gets inserted in the starting lineup, and it is he and Brian Taylor, Del Chione's coming off the bench. We run off like eight straight games. He was like, I told you, I told you.

So every team needs to have a guy like that, you know, a guy who is unpredictable, who is unfiltered and uh and talented you got to have the talent to go with it so you know it's a long story short you know in those three years we won two of the last three ABA championships um you know I have a run where I'm the most valuable player of all three years. Kevin Lockery was a huge influence on my career and really in my life, just in terms of we'd go in and we'd do a chalkboard talk, and he'd say, here's our game plan, okay? Then about halfway through the first quarter, he'd say,

the game plan ain't working. Me, look at me. He said, you game plan ain't working. Look at me. He said, you need to do something around like right now. So that was always fun because any time things started going sideways, you know, he would just extend the carrot. He was very generous in saying, you know, players win games, not coaches. So I'm giving you the green light. this is on your watch and your shoulders. So I enjoyed, you know,

those years more than any other years that I've played as a professional. And after my third year in New York, you know, and the Philadelphia situation came up for economic reasons. Once again, I realized that, you know, I had played freshman basketball in the middle school. I played varsity basketball for two years. My junior and senior years. UMass, I was there three years.

Virginia, I was there two years. Now the Nass, I was there three years. Virginia, I was there two years. Now the Nets, I was here three years. I was like, am I ever going to have a basketball home? You know? And Philadelphia became that because I was there for 11 years. And all the times when it came up, contract time or whatever, or trade, or talk about a trade i was like no you know i mean i've been journeyman i've literally been a journeyman in my basketball career and i want to stay here till till it's time for me to leave basketball and that's the way it happened

and it worked out and you won at every level and um, you know, you're an icon to all of us that love basketball. And so this is a real treat. And I can't thank you enough, man. My pleasure. longtime Cleveland journalist, whether it was the Plain Dealer or the Akron Beacon Journal. He's a legend as far as when it comes to covering the NBA and the guy that put together all of these interviews, hundreds and hundreds of pages of interviews. We had to bring him on to talk about the book's origin and also why at first people didn't really like it or get it. Let's start with the league, Terry. Why? Why did this group of owners, a rotating group of owners, why did they put this league together in the late 70s? Well, actually, the league began in 1967. They started looking at it in the early 60s, a small group of guys, and they wanted to do football first, but then the

AFL came in there. So here's how they did the research back then okay well we can't have football um who likes hockey and who likes basketball they didn't want to try baseball because you have to have minor leagues and everything else so uh they voted more guys like basketball than hockey so they decided to try a basketball league that was it now a thing to keep in mind ryan and the reason that the aba had a chance to to really take off was how many teams, because I had to look this up to refresh my memory right before we went on, how many teams were in the NBA, say, in the spring of 1967? Because that's when the league really got going. Well, I think it was, what, 14 or something? 10.

10. Oh, geez. Okay. He was getting ready. So think about that. And there was nobody playing in Europe or anywhere else. So you had, and some teams wouldn't even have a full roster of 12. They didn't want to pay 12 guys.

They'd have 10 or 11. So you had approximately 120 pro basketball players in the whole country. A number of those guys are playing for company teams like the Akron Goodyears or Phillips 66ers, that kind of thing. So in other words, there were all these basketball players out there. They knew that. These young owners in their way knew that there was a bunch of those guys. And so they thought they could get talent. But they had no money and what cities to play in and everything else.

And they wanted a piece of the action. I mean, these are the kind of guys you would probably find now out in the Silicon Valley continuing to come up with the latest software company or whatever it is. And most of them had a lot more ideas than they had money and but sometimes you come at the right time and the reason i started with the number of teams is because that was the key to making it the right time no that makes sense you're right um because you know later on we'll talk about the merger there so um they they put this i always thought the mic and thing was really interesting in the beginning because you have guys, as you say, vision, maybe not enough money,

but they bring in George Mikan to be the commissioner. What were some of the early struggles there as they were trying to launch? Well, first of all, George Mikan is like up in Minneapolis. He'd been the great NBA center, you know, the first half century of the 20th century. And he's up in Minneapolis. He's a lawyer and a travel agent. He can never have enough jobs. So they came along with him and said,

would you want to be a commissioner of this new basketball league? And they threw some money at him and they said, we need to move to New York. He goes, well, I'm not moving to New York. You know, he's got the travel agency here and he's i'm not taking a chance on this so i think they paid him like 50 grand which is a ton of money back then and so he agreed to do it if he could stay in minneapolis they wanted a big name for the league because mikan would give you some credibility with the media the cool thing about it was well what when George decides if I'm going to be commissioner, then I call, I interview George. He's actually going to do something.

So he starts saying, we're going to have a three-point play. Think about that. And he said, oh, really? He said, well, it was in the old ABL. I like it. Three-point play. And they talked about a couple of things. And he goes, well, we have to have a different color ball.

And I said, well, why? And George wore these big, thick glasses. He goes, I can't see that regular ball on TV. Even at the game, it looks blurry to me. We're the American Basketball Association, so we should have a red, white, blue ball. And he, honest to goodness, the first press conference where he introduces the ball and holds it up, he says is just like the american flag when people see it in the air they'll stand up and salute but think about this the three-point play the aba's ball which if they only had patented the color scheme they would have made a ton of money but when they patented the color scheme, they would have made a ton of money. But when they patented the ball, it had the ABA logo on it.

So Ryan and Terry could have gone out and just take the logo off and just have a bunch of red, white, and blue balls that were sold, which were sold all over the country. I mean, I grew up at that time, and I lived in Cleveland. I never saw an ABA game in my life, by the way. But I had a red, white, and blue ball. My mother liked it. So she would buy me one life, by the way. And, but I had a red, white, blue ball. My mother liked it. So she would buy me one for Christmas all the time. You know, it's kind of like, but the ABA got no cut of this. Yeah. That part of it is it's brought up in the book and you go, here's this, here's this thing in the moment everybody's making fun of. And yet it still

resonates with the league for people that never even saw the game. So they get started that first year, as you said, 67, 68, it's Pittsburgh, Minnesota, Indiana, Kentucky, New Jersey. And then you've got new Orleans, Dallas, Denver, Houston, Anaheim, and Oakland. Granted those cities were going to change around. I love the beginning of it because I'd only heard legend. I've talked to Hubie Brown about it a few times, but Connie Hawkins had a bunch of different things going on. So he comes into the league. He's the MVP scores 27 a game what did you enjoy the most about learning about Connie Hawkins that would probably be thought of as one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history if he were allowed to play I mean I I had read the book Hawk but I really didn't know you know why he was banned and this and know, all this stuff is very murky with several of those guys.

Like Doug Moe was sort of banned from the NBA a little bit. So was Roger Brown. So was Hawkins. But Hawkins really was. I did see him play when he was with the Phoenix Suns, when they would play the Cavaliers later on. And, you know, with the big hands and that. It just was, he was kind of quintessential early ABA player he would be because you know he was athletic he was colorful and that

and then the other one whose name is lost in history was a guy named Wes Selvidge who played for the Los Angeles team back then and he had been a baggage handler at LAX airport. And he went to one of these open tryouts and he could make three pointers. In fact, I think the first year he took like more three pointers than five different teams. Now he would have, they would have loved this guy.

You know, he'd be like playing for the Rockets and he was just feeling to jack it up. The rest of, think about a guy who took more three-pointers than five different teams in the league. And so you have one guy here like, you know, working in LAX and shooting from San Francisco. And then you had Hawkins with, you know,

all the classic athleticism of basketball. And Ryan, I think the other thing is like you grew up in the NBA area so did I but I'm a little older than you are but when you go back to the 60s it was all big man dominated you know walk the ball up the floor throw it into will throw it into Russell throw it back out you know guys could shoot but it was not in fact it was anything it was a league that suppressed athleticism in some ways because of the style of play where Where the ABA, you couldn't get these big guys because they're in the NBA or whatever. There weren't that many around. So they went the other way, you know, wide open.

And the three-point shot actually did create, you know, some of the things later, room for more guys to go to the rim. And it was invented by the, or rather brought into the league, by the guy who was the plotting center of all time in George Mikan. Yeah, that's the great part about that, too. You would have thought Mikan immediately would have said, we don't need any of that stuff. No. Maybe the first, and look, you wrote the book on this, so I'm only taking the historical perspective on it,

but there's immediate dismissal of any of it, right? You're like, like okay these guys suck you know the nba i i might have been a talk show host back then going like are you kidding me and bob ryan mentions how many times he was like this is a joke peter vesey and ryan is funny because he goes you know it wasn't that i was just parroting red arback although red that would have been classic red arback to think the league was atrocious without ever watching any of it just to go. So early on, do they understand what they have? Because at the end of the story is that these teams were successful financially and talent-wise.

So many ABA players had transitioned. So I don't want to try to get to the end here so early in the interview. But did they have any idea that if we can sustain this, we're closer to the NBA than anyone would ever give us credit for. Well, the business model was based on the fact they thought they could get players. They thought there was a lot of talent out there. Then they thought, we're going to try to attack the NBA on the economic front, signing their players. Rick Barry was one of the first to jump, others jumping, because the whole goal of this was not to have a long-term sustaining league, was to make the NBA tired of us, and they would take us in. And so suddenly that franchise you bought for $75,000 or $100,000,

it gets to be worth $500,000 or something like that. That was all. But I remember there was a guy that I I interviewed a guy named Dick Tinkham, who was enormously helpful to me, he was like number two for the Pacers and kind of the money guy. And I would say, what was your plan? He goes, he kind of explained that little part there. Well, we can try to get people in and get in the NBA and make them hurt.

He goes after that, we had no plan. We just made it all up. I mean, they, they had drafts where just a general draft, whoever wants to draft this guy, you think you can sign him. Okay, he's your guy. It was you want to have a cow milking contest at half court in Indianapolis. Why not? You know, we got plenty of cows. We got some buckets. We'll get a couple players to do it.

So that was the idea was to just be creative. And I do, again, harken back to people who are entrepreneurs in any other venue. That's what they were doing. But, you know, it's like in Miami. We're in Miami. It's warm here. Why not have cheerleaders in bikinis where they just go out and give the officials cups of cold water during timeouts, which might make the officials like us. You know, basically kind of the early thing of what you...

I mean, think about how... By the way, some of this stuff is really translated into what we see in the NBA now. When they were drafting players, they just said, hey, we don't have to follow the NCAA rule and we don't have to follow the NBA rule. So, I mean, how... Because it reminded me a lot of the USFL.

It was exactly the same thing. They're like, okay, well, if the NFL is going to wait, the NBA is going to wait, we're't have to follow the NBA rule. So, I mean, how, because it reminded me a lot of the USFL. It was exactly the same thing. They're like, okay, well, if the NFL is going to wait, the NBA is going to wait, we're not going to wait. And you're going up to these college kids saying a year or two in, come make some money now. It was a no-brainer for some of these big names. And they created the quote-unquote hardship rule for Spencer Haywood. You know, he was the first

saying that, well, Spencer doesn't have much money and it's a hardship. So, we're, and it's almost like they would challenge the court system by saying that, well, Spencer doesn't have much money and he's a hardship. So it's almost like they would challenge the court system by saying that, that you're depriving him of the right to make a living. And so that did open the door. You know, how about this with Rick Barry? This is something I didn't realize until I did the book. I mean, I knew Barry was one of the first to jump.

And, you know, Barry, a lot of people consider him arrogant or annoying and that, which he can be. But I've always had a pretty good relationship with Rick because, you know, a lot of times Rick says sort of like what we're thinking, you know, instead of like somebody may say something to us and we count to five in our head and go, well, that was not the best idea ever. You know, let's think about that again. He goes, well, that's just stupid. I mean, it's just dumb. Who would ever think of that? So all these things. But so I asked Rick, I said, why would you leave the Warriors for Oakland? Because he said something to me. You know, when I jumped, I didn't get that much more. And I said, why would you leave? He goes, well, my father-in-law was coaching Oakland what would you do and I said your father-in-law was coaching Oakland yeah Bruce Hale was his father-in-law I

did not realize that and so why did Bruce Hale get that job which he never should have gotten the pro ball was because he was his son-in-law was Rick Barry and they could get him to jump and and the interesting then if you follow that story a little farther down the road ryan then hale lasts only one year in oakland berry's fighting this out off court in the court system he never plays the next year berry is uh you know get his clear to play hale was fired and they bring in this coach alex hannam you talk about dismissing the nba hannam in his early years would say that red white and blue ball belongs on the nose of a seal now he's working for it yeah barry is uh a very you're right though i

mean if you're just going to be outspoken long enough you're going to end up pissing everybody off and that seems to be the deal with rick barry even though there are times where i'm like okay i get what he's trying to say here um And then there's other times where I'm like, what the hell is he talking about? But that's being outspoken. I mean, he's also a talk show host, right? And the other thing, yeah, you know, Ryan, the thing that's lost there, again, a little bit of that,

because I did see him, again, in the NBA. He really was a great player. He would be so good now with his long-distance shooting, his passing, his passing. They talk about playing multiple positions and all that stuff. He's that guy. I mean, he was just a great player. I remember he gave me a wonderful quote, too, and I can't remember the exact thing.

But several times, we went out to dinner one night, and I just taped this stuff for a couple hours with him. And he would say, you know, the league was Mickey Mouse. I mean, we had another Mickey Mouse league, except during the games. He goes, we get the talent out there during the games. He goes, now that was really good talent. The rest of it, you could just have. Mickey Mouse. He kept saying Mickey Mouse.

I don't know because I'm Pluto or what. He kept using that thing. But actually, that was sort of true. Remember,'t know because I'm Pluto or what. He kept using that thing. But actually, that was sort of true. Remember, we got back from the beginning, Ryan. Only 10 teams, lots of players out there. If we do this right, we can get pretty good players right away in this league. And then, of course, then you start stealing the NBA's players too.

Yeah, but the Pacers definitely figured it out because they also had the support. It's a crazed state um you mentioned um the legal guy over there with the Pacers but Mike Storen who some may know his story he was he's great in the book GM jumped around a little bit he's also Hannah Storm's father um and so Storen throughout this it's kind of funny like hey everybody else is trying to survive week to week on these checks. And then you'd start to see a franchise like a Denver, but certainly early on a Pacers team that was figuring it out and also realizing, like, we're a good team. Like we could beat some of these NBA teams. And they were actually my favorite team that I wrote about of them all. You know, people always want to talk about the St. Louis Spirits, you know, how wild they were or whatever.

But I just thought maybe because I'm from the Midwest, I just thought it was so cool. And their stars, for the most part, I'm trying to think I stopped for a moment. Yeah, they're all homegrown. In other words, these were not guys that they had taken from the NBA, whether it was Mel Daniels or Freddie, you know, Billy Keller, Rick Mount, a lot of slick Leonard had coached and played in the NBA. I'm sorry. He played in the NBA. I'm not sure he coached, but then he came there and he became their legendary coach. They just, and Roger Brown was another Roger Brown is there are these ABA players. They're just lost in history that people,

because there's no, yeah, Bob Costas, I think, said it best, at least to me, was like, you know, there's really very little tape, not that much written about them. A lot of what is written is kind of old wise tales. He says just like the Wild West, the people that did the biographies of Willie, you know, Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp. Who knew? I don't know. I mean, you know, something wild, something's going on out there,

but, you know, is that really what happened at the OK Corral? I mean, you don't know. Well, it's the same thing. Is that really what happened when the Spears played the Denver, you know, Rockets? Or I'm sorry. Yeah, were the Rockets. Yeah, they were the Rockets first, the guys moving company.

Yeah, I was trying to get that right because you got to watch these names. And, you know, I were the Rockets first, the guy's moving company. Yeah, I was trying to get that right, because you've got to watch these names. And, you know, I know that the Dallas, I think they were like the Roadrunners. I forgot their first thing, but there were two guys sitting around a bar that were there, and they were drawing things on cocktail napkins, and one of them became the logo. Yeah, that's the uh what the chaparral's chaparral's that's that chaparral's all right yeah that was yeah that was it uh well the dallas's thing i did like this is early and early in the uh the aba dallas was very hurting for money even by aba standards they were broke which means you're you know you're really

forget you don't holes in your pocket you have no pockets you know you're just nothing so they decide that they're going to just the owner is going to go the nba the aba draft they didn't do conference calls or anything that and for whatever reason the list of players that they wanted to draft, the owner took the list, which the GM had put in, you know, talent order as you would. And he had somebody put him in alphabetical order. And if you look at their draft from that year, you'll see like the A, B, C, D. He went first in there. And then, you know, like their last pick was he went first and there, and then their last pick was some guy, what are you?

Yeah, no, it's incredible, because if the guy wasn't there, then you would notice that based on their draft results that he was just going completely in alphabetical order. And meanwhile, they come back with their draft. The poor coaches go, what have you done to me? You drafted in alphabetical order. You drafted in alphabetical order. Who drafted in alphabetical order? I think there was one draft where you said a guy just showed up

in a preview magazine and just started looking at pictures. It was like, I will take this guy. The infamous Street and Smiths, yes. And remember, they didn't see anybody. There were no games on TV. Back then, they wanted to do college games a week or something. They didn't have scouts to go out. I mean, that was one of the advantages Red Auerbach had

is he had so many friends in the coaching community. They would just give him names of players, and he relied on that. But he also – at least an umbrella of an organization. He was a bunch of part-timers that got Celtics tickets to go do it. But the ABA had none of that. So a lot of what they did take were guys from their region. Rick Mount, for example, went to play for – pretty went to play for Indianapolis Pacers, you know, that kind of stuff. But the big thing was there was so much talent around, Ryan.

They could make mistakes, but the pool was so deep. You could just keep finding players. Who were the worst owners? who are the worst owners? Boy, that is sort of, well, I can't remember whether it was the Carolinas.

I'm trying to remember who came up with the first idea of regional franchises, Virginia, Carolina were the ones to do it. And, you know, where you play in four different cities and you play in no cities at all. Yeah.

Carolina was trying to do that. Raleigh, Greensboro. Charlotte and all that. Yeah, Charlotte. Yeah, I remember. In fact, the first coach when they moved there, a guy named Jerry Steele, when I was the young writer in Greensboro in 1977, this was right after the merger, he had landed, he was coaching in High Point College,

which is NAI at that point. He would say, all we had was our bags packed. We had nothing going on. So that idea was a bad one. It's like, let's have four home cities. Let's have no home cities. Because think about it. If you're really doing it, then you have to have four front offices

or something in each of the cities and make sure the arenas were there. So those were bad. Pat Boone got stiffed more than any other owner because he was the guy that ended up buying the Oakland, Pat Boone, the singer of the Oakland Oaks, when they basically took in all these bills and everything else. They did win a title when he was there, but as you said, they gave him a championship ring that was diamond,

but it's actually that kind of phony glass because I think the name of that chapter is the the two million dollar phony ring you know which wasn't and you know they they they took him all over the place so he kept writing you know he actually was paying his bills unlike a lot of these other guys yeah no boone gets absolutely worked over and for younger listeners you have to understand like boone is an old school crooner like nicest guy and then somebody had screwed him out of all this money and you know he was a man of faith so he essentially wrote him a letter and said you know if you if you feel like you could pay back any amount or in any sort of installments and uh he saw the guy like bought a new car or something and never responded to the letter. Yeah, he tried to do the Abraham Lincoln,

I'll appeal to the better angels, but there's also the other angels, and he was in league with them. Well, see, the other thing about Pat Boone was he liked to play basketball, so they knew he'd get him in with basketball, and he's out there shooting around with the players, and they made him feel like he was somebody,

and he was a nice guy um so but he really got fleeced but i wouldn't call him the worst owner that was like the worst story about an owner getting getting stiffed um the the spurs had two owners uh red mccombs and andrew i think drossos i'm trying to remember this book's old, so I'm struggling with the names, Ryan. No, you got it, man. Yeah. Yeah. So what they would do is there was all kinds of tax purposes and whatever. They kept selling the team to each other back and forth. Like if you needed a write-off or whatever this year versus your oil business or whatnot,

then they just first get bouncing between these two guys. Yeah. Angelo with San get bouncing between these two guys. Yeah. Angelo was San Antonio's is, is a really interesting story. He's this Greek guy with like a business background entrepreneur, but didn't have knew he didn't know anything about basketball, but then it became pretty clear that as he started to understand it more, it wasn't like he was out there all of a sudden figuring out the keys to

talent and which players could fit, but he just was a good owner. I mean, he basically, no, that team becomes beloved, and San Antonio is this unique success story because in the beginning, you're thinking, all right, this isn't going to last. They're moving around.

Who's this guy that doesn't know anything about basketball? And then he starts to become more and more involved, and it totally worked out. I thought Angelo came off as like a real hero in the book. Yeah, he is. Like, you know, the Spurs, the pacers uh denver you know these are franchises that really figured it out and also were kind of in the right places at the right time uh you know denver was a growing city back then san antonio um only show in town. Same thing with basketball crazy Indiana for the Pacers. I always and here's the thing that happened, Ryan, is that this opened the door to wild expansion on both sides.

You know, I lived in Cleveland. The reason the Cleveland Cavaliers came here in 1970 was they were worried about an ABA team coming in. In 1970, the NBA added three expansion teams. By the way, who adds three expansion teams? You were at an equal number of teams before that. You would stay with a round number again. No, they added three. And the three they added were Portland, Buffalo, and Cleveland. I mean, not exactly at that point in 1970, areas that you really

want to be in, but they went there because they're afraid the ABA was going to get there. It's what, what was happening here is the ABA kept driving up the price of everything in the NBA. Okay. So if we look at the owners cycling through here, and I've asked the other guys about this, but you have better perspective than anybody. Was it as simple as, hey, how can we scrounge up 500 grand, borrow it, beg for it, whatever? 50 grand. You get your relatives, everybody toss in a little bit. Yeah, big borrow, whatever, get a letter of credit. Not all these guys were real worried about making sure all the bills were paid before they left town. Yeah, I noticed that was a theme here. And so – and they were all just hoping – some of them was almost like buying one of these wild stocks on the stock exchange and hoping that this is the year the merger is going to come and suddenly our franchise will be worth five times as much as it was before. And the NBA kept thinking, these guys got to fold.

These guys got to fold. How are they going to keep going year after year? Nobody's really making any money over there uh because thing to keep in mind ryan the aba there's an agent he's in the in the book it's one of my all-time favorite people named ron grinker and he also was in you mentioned 48 minutes when you and i were talking before we came on the air the book i wrote with bob ryan about an nba game between the celtics and cavaliers and grinker at that point was like, if you needed to find a marginal player or whatever,

Grinker had like represented them all. There was an old movie, Broadway, Danny Rose at Woody Allen. And that he was like the Broadway, Danny Rose of agents. So, but he takes me down to his office and he had,

he had a lot of guys. The ABA was perfect for him. He was always finding players everywhere. And he said, look at these contracts. So he lays out a whole stack of these ABA contracts. One of these guys, I have them in the book. I forgot who they were, but it says five years, $500,000, which is a hundred grand a year, which is a lot for there. But if you read it, he goes, now look, he gets 30,000 a year for the

five years. Then he has to wait 10 years and they start paying him 15,000 a year for the five years. Then he has to wait 10 years, and they start paying him $15,000 a year, basically, until his grandson graduates from college. In other words, there was no way this guy was ever going to get the money. But he said, so that's bad. But what we were doing as agents, it was, well, I got a five-year, $500,000 offer for Player X. I tell that to the NBA, and they started giving me a real five-year, $500,000 contract. So think about that. So remember, it was all designed to drive up financial pressure on the NBA. How sketchy was the agent part of this? Because there's definitely some agents calling out other agents.

And you're right, these long-term financial plans of, hey, this annuity is going to kick in when you're 40 years old. And it's like, okay, but if we're gone, then you're never getting that money. And so the players are signing it, their big headlines, the agents seem cool with it, but it seemed like the agents were cool with it because they were getting a full commission off the full value. Yeah. They might say, you know, the average agent, he's going to take 7% from you. You know, I'll take 4% of the 500,000. I'll just take it right up front. Then you don't have to worry about ever paying a fee again.

Right, except for when you don't get those last 20 years. Yeah, except when you really don't. Because you won't have to. So I remember there was an agent, and I can't remember what player. He represented Joe Caldwell. I forgot who it was. But the St. Louis Spirits, Harry Weltman, a dear friend of mine who was a general manager of the spirits. And later the general manager of the Cavaliers,

Harry Weltman. And then of the nets said he was trying to get Joe Caldwell to jump to the ABA. And he said, this guy would like meet him at midnight and he would kind of these, these weird deals. But as his line always was men move at night. Yeah.

The guy that was like, the agent wants to be like in a parking garage, like he's big for, or, you know, and, and, uh,

what? Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that was funny because when that story is told men move at night, the guy that tells you that story in the book that related to you in the oral history is basically like, this is so stupid. Like he was, he was the least impressed with any of it.

But then he's like, look, some of these agents were doing some stuff here. Uh, by the way, part of it too, Ryan, just as there was no sort of, there was no test and who could be an owner. There's certainly no test on who could be an owner there's certainly no test and who could be an agent back then no no i mean gosh not like that at least now you have to i think show a certain real basic knowledge of something or other to be certified by the union or what but there was none of that yeah no i mean look some people would still tell you it's pretty sketchy today but nothing nothing like this um well he's thinking of owners let me tell you this because i'm old and i'm just streamlining it but i'm now same line about how anybody could be anything uh one of the early front office people slash owners maybe of the new orleans buccaneers was a talk show host from way back when later on morton downey jr

yeah was known as a how would you describe him ryan what would you say he would have fit in perfectly today that was that was early weird daytime and you know they'd have a panel and he'd chain smoke and he'd yell and scream and like his shtick was once you kind of went down a road as a panel guest, he would just lay into you. So it was really, he was performing for the audience, not the panel. Right. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Well, before that, before he found that, uh, you know, uh, dignified occupation, he was working for American can company in new Orleans. And they were one of the early owners of the new Orleans Buccaneers. And Larry Brown told me this story. And Larry Brown and Doug Moe, friends from North Carolina and all that, they're looking for a place to play. Remember, this is back when there's no place to

play. So they come in. Morton Downey Jr. has some nefarious position with the Buccaneers. It's unclear. And so they meet him at the desk. Of course, he's smoking, but he's got one of those like triangle nameplates, you know, it sits there. And on one side said Morton Downey Jr., like vice president of the Buccaneers. And the other side said Morton Downey Jr., something American can company. Well, he had the wrong one flipped up when he was talking to those guys, you know, it looked like it was from American. Well, he signed them. He disappeared not long after that. But he got them into pro basketball.

And then, you know, you look at – talk about launching careers. I mean, look what it did for Larry Brown and Doug Moe. I'm not sure we hear much of anything about those guys otherwise. I'm really glad you brought up Larry Brown because it's in the notes. And Doug Moe is attached – you know, they're attached as players traded together. And I think that first New Orleans deal. And then that's not really even as interesting as I think it's pretty clear. Whatever anybody thinks about Larry Brown in the end that every time and this is really his resume in college and the pros for the majority of it.

So I don't think the end should overshadow the fact that it seems like the minute he shows up to coach Terry, you're a different organization for the better. Yes. Yeah, he is. And he had a way, I mean, one thing he could do was get order right away, whether it's, you know, some of his college jobs, even at the end, or certainly in the pros, he had a way he wanted to play, you know, he was, he could do it. Um, and he, he and hubie brown and some of the others i think will tell you that the aba really allowed them to be much more experimental you know you could make mistakes there and you're not on main stage you know heck when some of these games were hardly covered by anybody in the media so you know if you had seven guys on the floor, and then you had four the next time out,

as you were kind of figuring things out, or you went to some stupid press and you got outscored 20 to two, because you were too stubborn to take it off. You were able to do this and then figure it out, have time to do it on your own. So I was really, but yeah but yeah i just i was like there's these strange people that just pass through the aba whether it's morton downey jr or well one of my other favorites was coach will chamberlain yeah in san diego now you you said once upon a time you kind of worked in

business a little bit and that and if you were to come up with a motto for a team, and you're in San Diego, and you have a 3,000-seat arena, and you have a 7'1 coach or whatever, would you come up with the world's tallest coach in the league's smallest arena? I would have not thought of that one, although I worked for a minor league team that would have been upset that I hadn't thought of it. So that reeked a minor league baseball. It didn't seem to play real well. Now, here's another guy, ended up having a long pro career. His assistant was Stan Allbeck, Chamberlain's assistant was. And that kind of got him going. But Wilt kept getting memos from the league.

Will you please wear shoes while coaching? We don't like the sandal look. Because they wanted him to play, right? And the Lakers are like, are you kidding? And then he thought, like, whatever, I'll just shoot in and out. And then after a while, he never showed up to anything, right? Right, all that kind of there. But when he was there, he wore sandals. Yeah, I saw

the pictures. The pictures are incredible. The book alone is worth it. So, look, what ended up being in your opinion like the best way to sum up how they were able to merge you know san antonio the nuggets the pacers and the nets part of this but lose irving because then it became a real battle on well wait are we we're supposed to give you our players but then keep the cities like how does this work and then all this money that's flying around it worked out for everybody that was able to get in and also st louis who didn't get in who we touched on that with costas but uh give me kind of the best way to summarize what happened there when it finally

came together well first of all and i'm going to start here work backwards when you look at the first all-star game after the merger 10 of the 24 players in that first All-Star game played in the ABA at some point. So when I get back, remember, the players are the best thing about the league. There's all this craziness and that, but there were so many talented players, and you can make a strong argument for coaches. But at this point, finally, after nine years, this thing lasted, which is about seven more years than the ABA guys in the beginning ever thought it would take for a merger to happen.

You know, it did. Then they were cutting all these deals from the Kentucky. By the way, I thought the one city that really got screwed over in this is the Kentucky Colonels. They should have been in the NBA because much like Indianapolis and much like San Antonio, they were the only show in town and they drew and they were successful.

But John Y. Brown, who owned them, the Kentucky Colonel guy, Kentucky Chicken, I want to say he got $3 million to fold his franchise and then turned around and bought the Celtics for a million and a half. Yeah, that's pretty much what happened. Because then Red couldn't work for him.

And they had to get him out of there. But it was, yeah, he was what, the governor? So he was a big name. And then when Issel got traded, he asked Issel to write a letter saying he had nothing to do with it. Because he was in politics back home. But it turned out to be the greatest thing ever. Unfortunately, though, Ryan, when you look at it, if you were a kid, were driving your red, white, blue ball in Louisville,

they sold your franchise and you never did get one. And so that was where he sold out his hometown. I mean, he ends up with the Celtics, ends up with the Buffalo Bravesves and all this stuff but the point being there then the other was um the classic deal that is still fully hard to understand but it was utter genius was the st louis spirits who around they actually were that carolina team that played in a bunch of different cities ended up in st louis for the last couple of years and the Silner brothers owned it and my friend the GM Harry Weltman whose idea I always thought actually was to we're going to fold our franchise we won't go in because the NBA was only taking four franchises but we got one seventh of

each team's national TV contract which gave them like a little bit more than a 50% cut of every year. At that point, people didn't think it was a big deal because they were hardly on TV. But of course, later on, it became a big deal. And the reason I mentioned Harry Weltman, he had worked for NFL Films before he got into basketball. And I thought that just kind of seemed like something Harry would have come up with.

But this became, I don't know, $200 million, $500 million before the NBA finally bought these guys off because there was one little word in there, or two words, that changed everything in perpetuity, which means like forever. Yeah. No, that's exactly what it was. So they kept getting checks from the Nets the spurs and indiana and denver and how would you like to be you know it's 1998 you know the league's been gone 22 years and you're writing this cylinder brothers you know a check for like seven million bucks or something it's

like and you got to do it again next year yeah it went on until 2015 so i think you're absolutely right because uh it was i believe a half a million because it was, I believe, a half a million because it was just before they're going to do the new TV deal and the owners are like, let's get rid of these guys. Yeah, especially those four cities, can't we? They won't die. We can't get rid of them, you know. The stats, we've been over them.

How many all-stars were ABA players? How many people in the finals and all that stuff? Here's something I didn't know until I did some outside research because the ABA returns were not great early on. The perception of the ABA by the NBA people

was that it was a joke. I had no idea that this book was so poorly reviewed when it came out 30 years ago. Yeah. Well, the New York Times hated it, which is almost like what you would think

Red Auerbach reviewed it. But the rest of the, you know, kind of the basketball writers and that loved it. And Ryan, I've got to give credit because the book was not my idea. It was a guy named Jeff Newman. And Jeff Newman is a at that point was like one probably the best sports publishing editor going. Season Under Brink was his. Jordan Rules was a book that he had put together. And so he had grown up, and I had written some other books for him, and he had grown up in Long Island as a Nets fan. And somewhere he ran into Bob Costas, and Costas started telling him ABA stories.

And he kept thinking, this is what we need. And so it was his, at want you at that point i was covering the cavaliers for the akron beacon journal and he said look you're around all these basketball guys uh you just start talking about the aba and then he said but i want it done in the form of oral history which i wasn't sure and he kind of he laid out the format it was his idea his title loose balls that was not mine. Basically, I just ran around. And when I felt like quitting in the middle of it, because I didn't know what I had, I was like trying to wrestle an anaconda. I just had all this stuff all over the place. I couldn't

keep track of what towns and where anything was. And then on top of it, I'm interviewing all these people getting wildly conflicting stories. And he said, just put the stories all in there. One guy said this, and the other guy said that. Just leave it out there. And he said, just put the stories all in there. You know, like one guy said this and the other guy said that. Just leave it out there. And then I remember Rod halfway through his interview with Costas, and he gave me the idea of the Wild West. And so that's exactly what we turn this into. You know, the legends of the ABA.

You know, who knows if all of this is true or not. This is what they said. It was a pleasure, man knows if it was all this true or not. We're just, this is what they said. It was a pleasure, man. It really was. And like I've, I've said throughout the special, make sure to check it out if you find any of this interesting, because it's just hard to do it justice in a 30, 40 minute conversation with any of these legends.

So I appreciate all the work on this, Terry, and you kind of changed it because the oral history stuff afterwards, you know, it's, it, it's become, it's a go-to there'll be certain books. I'm like, Oh wait, that's an oral, like the Thomas Hauser Ali book that I read soon after I read 48 minutes. Oh, by the way, that also was Jeff Newman's book. Was it really? Yeah. I'll have Jeff Newman on. Yeah. It's kind of like they talked and you know, yeah, actually he, if you ever really want to do sports books and things, he would be really good. Kind of like Maxwell Perkins was for all those guys, Hemingway and Fitzgerald and all that in the old days. Jeff was for a number of us younger sports writers to help bring out books.

And the other thing that was cool about Jeff, he knows a New York guy. He knew of a book sold in Cleveland or Denver. He didn't care. You know, he liked regional publishing, too, which is part of the reason he got a little older. They just didn't see him in that light. And then later went on, went on to be a pretty good golf writer for variety magazines. This was a lot of fun, man. I hope, um, you understand, you know, look, you put this work into it and here we are 30 years later, still talking about this book. So thanks. That is remarkable, Ryan. Cause I, just like the ABA, when I started, I had no idea what I was doing.

Halfway through, I wanted to quit. At the end, I'm not sure what it was other than it was over. And then the first review just slams it in the New York Times. And then after that, now it's 30 years later. I've written all these books. This is the one people talk about. It's that good? It's that good. It's that good.

So you deserve it, man. Thanks, Ryan. I hope you enjoyed part one coming up. Part two, we'll have Rod Thorne who tells an incredible story about getting a head coaching job that he knows he probably wasn't ready for.

Artist Gilmore and the battles in the trenches and Bob Costas, who called these games right out of college for the legendary spirits of St. Louis and also won Marvin Barnes. Very few storytellers as good as Bob Costas. So if you want the episode without having to worry about it, make sure you subscribe and spread the word and tell as many people as you can as we'll get back to ABA stories later this week. Thank you.