The Ryen Russillo Podcast - ABA Stories: Part 2 | With Bob Costas, Artis Gilmore, and Rod Thorn

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

In Part 2 of a two-part series, Ryen Russillo talks with basketball legend Rod Thorn about his time with the New York Nets, Julius Erving, his wild experience as head coach of the Spirits of St. Louis, wrangling ABA legends Wendell Ladner and Marvin Barnes, the NBA-ABA merger, and more (2:00). Then Ryen Talks with ABA MVP and six-time NBA All-Star Artis Gilmore about choosing to play in the ABA over the NBA, playing with the Kentucky Colonels, defending a young Moses Malone, scrapping with Mo Lucas, transitioning to the NBA post-merger, and more (35:00). Finally, Ryen is joined by sportscasting legend Bob Costas to discuss starting his career with the Spirits of St. Louis at the age of 22 in 1974, the rough-and-tumble nature of the ABA, hanging with Marvin Barnes, teams folding financially, the importance of keeping these ABA stories alive, the Dropping Dimes Foundation, and more (56:15). If you would like to donate to the Dropping Dimes Foundation click HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I hope you enjoyed part one of our ABA stories on the Ryan Russillo podcast. If you missed that, don't worry. You can listen to number two first and then number one. You'll be able to keep up. As we said in the first one, the ABA from 1967 to 1976 in part two, we'll have Artis Gilmore, who was one of the most feared men in the league and considered the strongest. Rod Thorne, who was a coach early on and had to deal with some of the more unique characters.

And I'm even going to ask him, too, when he was running the Bulls, did they actually try to trade Jordan, the pick for Jordan, for Julius Irving when he was with the Sixers? And then Bob Costas, who doctored his audition tape to get a job, where he ended up calling Spirit of St. Louis games with the owner's wife. That's all coming up. Part two of ABA Stories. Rod Thorne's a Hall of Famer. He's done just about everything in basketball,

including playing in college, years in the pros, the second pick in the 1963 draft in the NBA through 71, coach for the Sonics. But then in 1973, Rod, your ABA career started. How did that start? What was that call like? Well, I had been an assistant coach, Ryan, with the New York Nets. And we had played the St. Louis Sp uh, first, first round of the playoffs,

uh, the previous year. And we had beaten them during the regular season, 10 consecutive times. We beat them the first game of the playoffs, and then they proceeded to win the next four. Uh, so they had eliminated us and, uh, their coach, uh, resigned and I was offered the job and, uh, and ended up taking it. Uh, Harry Weltman, uh, who was at that time, the GM of the spirits, uh, we'd had several conversations and, uh, so I ended up taking the job. So you had, had initially been an assistant though, correct? When, when you were with the nets, right? Uh, that is correct. Uh, Kevin Lockery, uh, was a terrific coach, was our head coach. And we had won one championship and then, uh, lost to the spirits the next year. So I had been an assistant coach for two years.

the next year. So I had been an assistant coach for two years. So Julius Erving had been in the league two years with the Squires out of UMass. The great thing about reading about Julius is that it was all this doubt,

like Yankee Conference, UMass, like you've got to be kidding me. This guy can't be this good. And then certain people that run across him are like, there's a story where Al McGuire's losing to him at Marquette going,

who the hell is this guy? And one of the guys on the bench is like, he's from New York. And across him are like, there's a story where Al McGuire is losing to him at Marquette going, who the hell is this guy? And one of the guys on the bench is like, he's from New York. And McGuire's like, we get the players from New York. Like, what the hell's going on here? What was your first reaction of hearing about the legend of Dr. J and then actually getting to see him in person? Well, you know, Ryan, I was living in Seattle before I took the job with my career just ended and as a player and before I took the job with the Nets. And I had heard of Irving because, you know, his legend was already growing, even though he wasn't in the NBA and he was in the, you know, in the ABA. But all of the street people were talking about Julius Erbick and what a great, great athlete he

was. And, and, uh, you know, how, you know, he was as good as anybody, you know, we kept hearing that none of us believed it because he was, you know, he wasn't in the NBA. You know, we want to see it in the NBA. So when I came, when I took the job and came to New York and then started watching this guy play, he was unbelievable. The things he could do athletically, I had not seen. The hanging in the air, the jumping from the foul line, the jumping way over the square. He could just do things athletically that nobody else could do. And he had a hand that was about one and a half times as big as mine.

one and a half times as big as mine. He had like an extra digit in his fingers. His hand was so big. And he could, I've seen him a hundred times, go to the sideline and grab a ball with one hand. Like you and I would grab a softball. He could grab a basketball like that and pull it back with one hand because of the ridiculously big hands he had.

But at that time, probably at his peak physically, he was unbelievable. I think a today's star in the league, and Dr. J was certainly that. He transcended just basketball, like the cool nickname, the marketing part of it, which the ABA was really, I think, ahead of the NBA at that time. How surprised were you in such a wild league that he carried himself like he's a 30-year guy that's been a vet for 10 years? Because that seemed to be a very consistent thing. Obviously, everybody was impressed with his physical abilities,

but the way he carried himself as a leader at a very consistent thing. Not only the, obviously everybody's impressed with his physical abilities, but his, the way he carried himself as a leader at a very young age. Uh, was remarkable. Um, he, of all of, of all of the great players I've been around, I've been around a lot of them. He was the best teammate. He thought of his teammates, you know, he was the ABA. Wherever we went, we had big crowds you know there weren't the most of the games the crowds were very very small but when dr j came to

down to town everybody who knew anything about basketball would come to the games So he actually carried the league and he did it with a plum. He did it with class. Again, of all the players I've been around, the great ones, he was the best teammate of any of them, as well as being one of the best players I've ever, you know, ever been around. But he just thought about team, was about team, and players love playing with him. Yeah, I can't wait to get to some of the St. Louis stuff as well. But here you are, you're still young, but you're this top pick. You make it about a decade as a player. You're on a staff there in Seattle.

How wild was it to you that, okay, because I know you thought about becoming a lawyer, you were finishing up grad school out there and it was kind of like a last minute thing and you're talking with your wife, but once you're in it and there aren't crowds at a lot of places, the ownership is changing constantly. Teams are moving all over the place. Some guys are just not even showing up. How wild was that experience in comparison to something a bit more buttoned up in the NBA? It was crazy. You know, from week to week, there were always rumors that the league was folding. Certain teams were, you know, we're going to fold.

I can remember when I was coaching in St. Louis, and we're getting ready to play Utah, and they fold. So who's going to be the coach? Tom Nasofsky was a coach, a very accomplished coach in Utah. I'm a new coach in St. Louis. Is he going to be the coach? Am I going to be the coach? It was crazy because it was constant.

You know, every week there were rumors. Every day there was something going on. It most likely wasn't about what was happening on the court, but what was happening in the courts or what was happening away from the game. It was

crazy. You get the call from St. Louis. I think you're about 33, 34 here. What went into the decision? I mean, obviously if you're coaching, you want to be a head coach at some point, take us through that timeline of events. Well, the year before when we won the championship, my first year with, uh, with the Nets, I had interviewed, uh, for the Kentucky Colonel job that, uh, Hubie Brown, uh, ended up, uh, getting. And at that time, his wife's name was Ellie and Ellie did part of the interviewing, uh, Ellie Brown. And, uh, uh, but anyway, I came out second for that job, didn't get it. So I was hopeful of becoming a, you know,

a head coach. And then the next year when St. Louis beat us in the playoffs, St. Louis had some very, very good players. Marvin Barnes and Maurice Lucas were our starting forwards, which were pretty daggone good. So I thought they had a terrific opportunity to be very, very good and ended up getting offered a job and taking the job. So you get to St. Louis. Didn't you have Moses for a stretch there, too, as well? Well, when Utah folded.

Right. So it wasn't the full season. We got Moses, who had a broken foot, by the way, at the time and couldn't play. Ron Boone was another good player that we picked up from Utah at that time. And we picked up several other players. Randy Dent was one. It was a decent, you know, ABA player. But, yes, a, a player. Uh, uh, but, uh, yes, we did, uh, we did have Moses, uh, you know, for a time, but, but he, he couldn't play. He played one game for me before I got let go. He,

he played one game, uh, because of broken foot. Yeah. I'd heard that he just, the trainers couldn't figure out what was wrong. And he just said broken foot. Like there wasn't a long discussion. That's funny because I happen to be in the training room and the trainer was, you know, in those days, you know, you have one trainer that was it. And he wasn't, you know, he wasn't a doctor to begin with. So the trainer was essentially a guy to tape ankles. That's what the trainer was for. You know, put Band-Aids on something. But they weren't like they are today.

And Moses was not very talkative in those days. And when he did talk, he was hard to understand because he sort of mumbled. And he was sitting on the training table and the trainer's looking at his foot and the trainer said, is this a foot? And he said, foot hurt. And the trainer didn't hear him, didn't understand him.

And the trainer said, what did you say? And he said, foot hurt. And finally we figured out that his foot was bothering him when he couldn't run. But he was, you know, Moses, from the time he started, Ryan, he had this incredible will to go get the basketball. And he was, when he was 19 years old, from Petersburg, Virginia, playing in the ABA, the guy was relentless. And over the course of the game, he would wear you out. You know, whoever was trying to defend him or trying to play against him, he would physically wear them out.

And in the fourth quarter, the guy would just go crazy. Was there any coaching him? I mean, I know you only had him to the game for that, but I'm just – it didn't seem complicated with Moses. Funny story with Moses. When we got Moses and, you know, then he's got a broken foot and he can't play, but we're, I've got him out with the second unit working on our plays. We probably had five plays that had, you know, some different options to them.

Sure. And so we're out working, you know, working out with the second unit guys. And Moses is messing up every play. And what I don't understand at the time is that Moses is very smart. And he's doing it on purpose because he doesn't want to be out there doing it. And he keeps messing these plays up. So finally I figured out I've got to end this some way. How am I going to end this and not look like a total putz in front of these

other players? And so he just keeps messing them up. And I had made the statement that we're going to do this until we do it correctly. And so finally, I said, after about 30 minutes, I said, you know, I looked at my watch and I said, oh, I've got a meeting with the general manager. I got to go, guys, and left. But he would have continued to mess them up because that, that, that was,

that, that was Moses. And it wasn't anything malicious at all. It was just that, Oh, I don't want to do this. This guy's stupid enough to make us keep doing this. Okay.

We'll see where this goes. Well, how would you describe yourself at that age as a head coach? Uh, very, uh, anxious, very,

uh, uh, you know, wanting to do everything perfectly, uh, uh, you know, very into it from a coaching standpoint,

uh, we're all going to be together and we're all, you know, we're going to have, we've got a lot of talent. We're all going to be together. We've got a lot of talent here. We're going to be a very good team. They're going to follow me because I'm going to do a lot of right things. That type coach. Were you a bit of a hothead? Yes.

Very. I was an emotional player. I was an emotional person. And yes. Can you tell us then the Wendell Ladner shoe story? Because you were still an assistant when the Nets there for Lockery at that point. You've gotten thrown out of the game. I know there's different versions of it, but

Wendell Ladner, who's essentially the Burt Reynolds of the ABA. Definitely. Feel free to go in any direction then. Tell us that story or any Wendell ones. Wendell was a character, number one. Very, very tough guy.

And when he played with Kentucky, he did a pretty good job guarding Dr. J. And he would beat him up. You know, he wasn't afraid of anybody. Wendell, he didn't care if he was Julius Erving or Kareem Jabbar. He was going to try to beat you up and would beat you up. So he's sitting on the bench. He's out of the game. And he just, you know, he takes his shoe off and throws it on the, throws it out on the floor. And, uh, you know,

the referees didn't know what to do. They're looking at him. We, we, you know, everybody thought he was crazy and he didn't know what he was going to do. And, uh, it was hilarious. It really was. But what we ended up trading for Wendell and basically to get him away from Dr. J. Because we, number one, we were afraid he might hurt him. And number two, did a good job, you know, against him. And he didn't play fantastically well for us. But in a couple of big playoff games, he played great. Because Wendell had no fear. He would shoot the ball every time he touched it.

Didn't care if it went in or didn't go in. You know, he always thought the next one would go in. And he had a great heart. You know, he had a great heart. Just a great heart. You know, he had a great heart, just a tough guy. And I can still see the picture in the New York Post when his plane went down and he died. And it was a picture of his gym bag with his number on it, his net bag, you know, in this picture with all this carnage. There was this picture. Loved the guy because he was that tough.

But he was, you didn't know what he was going to do on the court. You know, plays, he didn't run plays. He would go wherever he, you know, he'd just go where he wanted to go. But tough guy and did a really good job for us. So you're jumping back to St. Louis. I have to get the Marvin Barnes stuff here, just so people understand some of the younger listeners. I was reading in loose balls

there's a moment where bob costas talks about barnes after a loss where he had 48 points and he starts talking to costas and because costas is the announcer fresh out of syracuse early 20s and barnes goes this team doesn't have any any like connection you know we're not a team no one looks out for each other costas is saying like this is amazing like barnes is revealing some of the the inner problems of of this team and he's really identifying that we're not a team we're not a team and we need to be more connected and all this stuff and then barnes goes see i got 48 points with two minutes left to go and nobody passes me the ball to get me to 50 so that was marvin's definition of not being team enough uh anybody that knows bad news barnes in my my family's history back in Providence

with the Mullanians and everything, too. So, you know, I'd heard about him even as a little kid. I'm going to ask you for a bunch of Marvin Barnes stories here, but how was it in the beginning in trying to figure out a way to coach him than ultimately what led to probably part of your dismissal too marvin was a very very talented player um a lot like only not quite not as good but a lot like bernard king you know how bernard would drive and bump you off and shoot that real quick little jumper he had. Marvin had the same type thing, bigger than Bernard, better rebounder, potentially a much better defensive player when he wanted to do it.

But he had the potential to be, you know, a 10-time All-Star, you know, in the NBA. Marvin was very undisciplined in his, the way he lived. You know, he, when the game was over, you had no idea what he was going to do, where he was going, what he was going to do. I can't tell you all of the different conversations I had with him about you're our best player. There are obligations here. There's things you need to do. And finally, after, you know, we fined him over $30,000 during that time for being late. One day we're practicing at a cathedral in St. Louis

and there was a mirror that you could see the front door when you were standing around midcourt. And I was standing around midcourt, it's like one minute to 10 when practice was going to start. And all of a sudden I see Marvin out there. He looks at his watch and waits till it's a minute after 10 to come through the door. Because he wasn't going to be on time.

Because no one was going to tell him he had to be someplace at a certain time. He wasn't going to do that. I remember him telling me that I was on him constantly, trying to get him to do the things that your best player needed to do. And so one day he said to me, you know something, Coach, why are you on me all the time? I'm going to clean this up because there were a bunch of profanities in it we don't have to he said i give you 24 and 12 every night what about these other blankety blanks

why why aren't you on them all the time uh that was the the the the kind of attitude he had, Ryan, he didn't, it was all about what can I do when the game's over? It wasn't about how can I get better? And, you know, when he came to the NBA after, you know, when Detroit picked him up to come to the NBA when the ABA folded, he never was the same player in the NBA that he was in the ABA because all of the off the court stuff caught up with him. You know, he lost his, he lost that little extra something that he had, you know, because of that. I remember one time, Ryan, and I decided that I'll wait till he does something good before I have another conversation with him.

You know, maybe I'm doing this the wrong way. You know, always screaming at him when he's doing something bad. So we play in Utah and he has 28 points and 24 rebounds and we beat Utah. And so after the game, I said to Marvin Marvin when we get back to the hotel I need to talk to you so come up to my room we have a great conversation for the next two hours

have a couple beers and it was the best conversation I ever had with him and when he left the room he said coach I know you're right coach I'm going to do it your way, Coach. We're going to be this.

We're going to be that. The next day, he missed the bus. We're headed to Denver. He's a no-show. He's a no-show in Denver. And about 3 o'clock in the afternoon of the game, which was two days later, I get a call. I'm in my room. I get a call and Marvin said, coach, how are we doing? Well, what time's the bus leave for the arena? God knows where he'd been over that time, but he shows up at the game and did not play very well.

Did not play very well. But he was an enigma. I was probably too young and too emotional to, you know, to be coaching him at the time. We had Don Chaney that we had picked up from the Celtics. And Chaney obviously was, you know, a really good defensive player and a wonderful human being. And I can remember Chaney telling me, he said, Coach, I've been in pro ball 12 years and I have never seen anybody like this guy ever. That, you know, that acts like this guy acts.

that acts like this guy acts. But it was a really tough time for me because, you know, you want everything to be, you know, just the way you'd like it to be. And I had no other problems with any other player on the team, but him, just could never get him to do what he needed to do to be, you know, the type player that he could have been, you know, for us. What happened when you got fired?

Oh, when I, when I got fired, uh, the, uh, was over the, um, all-star break, uh, member of the all-star game where they introduced the slam dunk with Irving and, uh, uh, artists Gilmore and Larry Keenan and, um, uh, uh, David Thompson, uh, George Gervin. I mean, they had some, you know, great dunkers, but that, that was the one that the slam dunk got introduced and Dr. J won it by taking off from the, you know, just inside the foul line and to win it. And I got a call, you know, with about two, there were a couple of days left before the second half of the season started. And Harry Weltman asked me to stop by the office and said they were going to make a change. And Joe Mullaney, you know, replaced me and, you know, at that time. So that was the reality of the coaching profession. Were you still the head coach when Maurice Lucas knocked out Artis Gilmore?

I was not the head coach at that time. The Lucas scenario with Gilmore had actually happened the year before I got there. Maurice was a tough guy and a very, very good player. And he and Gilmore got in some altercation. And Gilmore, Maurice was backing up. And Gilmore was coming after him. And they got over to the edge of the court. There was no place else to go. So Lucas stopped and punched him and knocked him down.

So Lucas stopped and punched him and knocked him down. You know, I think Artis was surprised that he punched, you know, that he stopped and punched him. But he knocked him down, which, you know, which led to the, you know, to Lucas getting the reputation of being such a tough guy, which he was. He was a tough guy, but a tremendous player. And I can remember Maurice telling me that we were, I used to talk to him about Marvin, you know, how can I reach Marvin? And he said, Coach, nobody can reach Marvin. You're wasting your time.

It's not going to happen. He wasn't wrong about that. He was not wrong about that. Did you know, as this was all happening, what level the merger would be? Because it sounds like, in reading about all these different teams, different teams are either trying to cut costs so they be a better you know have a better chance so they try to add players to have a better chance a lot of it i think came down to just geography san antonio was a really strong franchise denver was a strong franchise the nets part of it with julia serving and then realizing like okay well which part of this is going to play out like it felt like there were

all of these owners trying to keep these things afloat to kind of win the merger lottery, knowing that more than half the franchise are going to be gone after anyway. Uh, yeah, there, there had been, um, uh, you know, talks during the course of the season between, uh, the NBA and, uh, you know, ABA owners, uh, about it, the possibility. and, you know, ABA owners about the possibility. And, you know, you would hear rumors about it, but no one really, you know, no one really had any idea exactly, you know, what was going to happen. But if you look at it, the teams that got into the NBA with the exception of the Nets were all very competitive right from the start.

You know, Denver, San Antonio, Indiana. The Nets were not competitive because Roy Bowe, who was the owner of the Nets, had to sell Julius Erving in order financially to get into the league. Had he not sold Julius, if Julius had stayed with the Nets, all four of those ABA teams would have been very, very competitive in the NBA. I want to end on this note

because I know it's been talked about a little bit because you are the man that drafted Michael Jordan. I know you're aware, just to remind everybody. But how real was the offer of Dr. J for the draft pick that was Jordan? Philadelphia had an interest in getting our draft pick. Philadelphia floated several different scenarios with us regarding that draft pick. None of them ever involved Irving at the time. Now, would they have done it if we had said,

okay, we have to have Irving? I don't know if they would have or they wouldn't have, Ryan, but they never, he was never, his name was never brought forward by them to us during any discussions that we were having with Philadelphia. Okay, wow. So that's great because there's folklore out there that he was offered up and you turned it down. No, he wasn't uh i i i'm you know had he had he been offered you know that was something that we would have had to look that seriously because he was you know he was still

a big time player at that time wow that's crazy um because yeah the way the way it's the way it's talked about you know every now and then there's stuff that's out there about it. It makes it sound like you sound better in the story than the version you just told about yourself, Rod. So I would stick to the stuff that's out there. Well, you know, with Jordan, you know, I had gone to North Carolina after every year. I became friendly with Dean Smith, and he would let me watch tape of ACC games so I could scout the ACC and also scout his team. And I'm sitting there watching tape, and Jordan is like, sitting there watching tape and Jordan is like you know I mean he's like so much better than these other players athletically that it's like wow so you know I finished watching it's like

five o'clock and I go up and sit down with Dean and I said Dean how good is this kid, Jordan? He looks great on tape. And he said, I would never say it publicly because, you know, it's not the Carolina way, but he's the most talented player we've ever had here. And obviously they had some great, great players. But, you know, at Carolina, you know, they play a certain way and they play a team oriented game and, and he obviously was a great player, but, um, uh, you didn't see, I mean, anybody that can tell you, they knew how good that guy was going to be is, is, uh, they would have to be more prescient than me to do it because I,

you know, at that time I thought he would be very good, but, but to be what he turned out to be, you know, no way you could think that at that time. Rod, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time and telling these stories.

I think they're just great. And hopefully people learn some things today about the ABA and your career. So I can't wait to run into you again. All right, man. Okay, Ryan. Appreciate it. Thank you. Seven to three is the score.

NBA leads. ABA has the ball. Here is Don Freeman going inside to Artis Gilmore. And Gilmore puts it up over Wilt Chamberlain. Hall of Famer. Artis Gilmore puts it up over Wilt Chamberlain. Hall of Famer artist Gilmore joins us, and before he took his talents to the NBA, which is an awesome story in itself,

this is one of the most dominant college basketball players of all time. A reminder for some just to understand, averaged 24 points but 23 rebounds a game two years at Jacksonville after a JUCO start and drafted into the ABA. So those first five years, before we go into this Kentucky run, Artis, can we back up just a little bit about the transition out of college, going to Chicago in the NBA draft, the ABA wanting you, throwing money at younger players?

How did that all come about as you were making that decision? Right. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation and for an opportunity to be with you today. But, you know, reverting, actually speaking about those earlier years and that, of course, the transition from the collegiate level to the ABA without, I mean, there was no money. I remember they spoke about $15 a month. That was out of laundry money. And half of the time that was not available.

But moving forward, I don't know if there was a whole bunch of guys. Moses Malone was the first player, I think, from high school, long before Daryl Dawkins. And what was that, Willoughby? What was Willoughby? I can't remember his last name. But those were the two individuals that initially was at the beginning of the game.

So were you in a position, because I don't know what the JUCO rules were that initially was at the beginning of the game. So were you in a position, because I don't know what the JUCO rules were back then, were you essentially, like, did the Bulls draft you just to draft you, but you still could have stayed in college? Or was it strictly an ABA offer there that got you out of Jacksonville? Well, I didn't leave. I did not depart the school as an underclassman. I graduated from Jacksonville University. But the reason I made the decision to accept and go sign with the ABA was because of the financial guarantee that would allow my family in the event that I would have received an injury. That was the point that was impressed upon me and sort of assisted me in making that decision.

And so were you surprised then that Chicago took you so late? Like, what was the reason to have somebody with your resume go so late to Chicago? Were they just assuming that you were going to the ABA? Because that part of it is probably a little confusing historically. Well, that probably was the point of evidence for them. You know, why use a high draft choice? He's basically committed. He's going to be going to the ABA.

So I would think that would probably be part of their decision to bring me in at such a high draft choice as a seventh rounder. That first season with Kentucky, 71-72, your first year in the league, you go 68-16. Was it almost easy for you at that point? Because we can get to the fact that you lost in the playoffs right away,

but how surprised were you that you guys were that good in the regular season with that Kentucky team? Well, before I joined that team, they were really, really good. They had just lost the seven-game series against the Utah Stars. It was a very, very good team. With my additional

play as a member of that club, certainly that elevated and allowed us to have such a great, great, great season. Allowed us to have that good season. So what happened in the playoffs?

The story was Rick Barry and John Roach. Rick was something always pretty special. He understood how to elevate his game during the playoffs. And certainly that was an indication. And when he played for the Golden State Warriors and they won the championship in 1975. You have Joe Mullaney. Then you make another change.

It doesn't work out. How much of a difference did Hubie Brown make for the team? Hubie was make for the team? Hubie was, no pun intended, but a huge Hubie change made a terrific difference. You know, his coaching style and the way he informed the players was just so different

and really in a positive way. For example, and I kind of use this kind of as an analogy, is if you were, I mean, you come from a foreign country, you had no knowledge of the game. He does such a great job with just breaking it down and describing it. And he's able to coach that. He was able to coach that. He had a tremendous skill at coaching it.

You know, whether you think about what happened at that particular time during the two years that he was the coach with the Colonels, you look at Hubie, the success that he had in the NBA, and he ended up leaving the NBA for 20 years and returned and came back and was acknowledged as the coach of the year. So that was just an indication that Hubie did a great job of getting his point across. A great coach. Every time anyone talks about you in the book, they're like, he's just so strong. Were you just stronger than everybody else?

I mean, how did it happen? Obviously, you're an enormous human being, but everyone was in awe of your strength. Working in the watermelon fields and cotton fields when I was a kid, I think that had a lot to do with it. But I was fortunate that I developed the strength from earlier years, working in the fields. And certainly that was an asset for me. And did you have, ended up like a later growth spurt?

Because I know that the legend is you wanted to play football instead. And at your height, that might not have worked out at the end. No, no, no. I had a desire to play football. No, no, no. I had a desire to play football, but, you know, in those earlier years, back in the 50s, late 50s and 60s, the racial issues were not only created so many challenges for the schools that we attended. So that allowed them not, there was not a budget for them to purchase the equipment. You know, basically they had the uniforms and they would keep those for years and years,

you know, and, you know, like your shoes, the kids were responsible for bringing their shoes, purchasing their own shoes, practically. And those was a combination. Those little things were a part of a combination of me not being able to actually go out and play football. ABA was always struggling financially. Kentucky was obviously one of the better franchises, but were you ever dealing with, because I know ownership had changed over there, were you ever dealing with issues where players were like, you know, are these checks even going to clear? Because there's always stories about how you guys,

as soon as you get the check, all raced each other to the bank to make sure you could cash it so it would clear. Yeah, I've heard those kind of little hearsays. But, you know, we had some good owners in Kentucky. There was a number of individuals. I think they gave me basically a personal guarantee in the event that, you know, the team fold that I would receive my monies, you know, the amount of my contract.

As far as some of the other teams, you know, that were borderline, and I don't know, Pittsburgh Condors and, you know, the Conquistadors and the different other franchises. There were financial issues. And I remember when the Chaparral moved to San Antonio, becoming the Spurs. But always going to Dallas, applying to Love Field and go and play the game in Dallas. There was like 100 people maybe attending the game, but it was certainly a change, and the excitement elevated once the franchise moved to San Antonio.

Did you ever or other teammates have moments where you thought, even though your franchise was more stable, you go to Dallas, there's 100 people there, like you say, and you start thinking about the NBA going, did I make a mistake? Was there ever any of those conversations with guys going, what are we doing here? No. I mean, it was really kind of weird that, okay, the Floridians,

the Miami Floridians, you know, enjoyed playing down in Miami maybe about one year. And all of a sudden they vanished. The Memphis Tams. And I remember Adolph Rupp was the GM there for a short period of time. A number of things that was happening, Like it was developing on the move. There was, I remember Dan Issa was traded to a franchise. Denver?

No, it was a Baltimore. But the team never even evolved, become a franchise. And it was just like a bypass, Dan bypassed and on to Denver. Yeah, you're right. I mean, he got traded to Baltimore, but then they never even started. So then they figured out some way to get him to Denver, which worked out for Dan, because I know that he ended up spending a lot of time there. Did you, who did you think was the best player you went up against? Who was

the most impressive during those early years in the 70s? Probably Julius. He was such an advanced talent. For an example, most guys, like myself, I'm grabbing the rebound and I'm looking for the outlet pass to Louis Dampier,

or you know, Dale Carrier, whomever that was out. But Julius grabbing the rebound right at the top of the key in his first step, he's sprinting the lid to the floor. So he created different problems for, you know for players like myself. And even though we were not matched up center to center, he was a forward center. But Julius was probably one of the most challenging players that I played against in the ABA. But, you know, Mel Daniels, he was, I mean,

Mel Daniels was at least two or three times the MVP of the league. So it was a learning experience for me. And of course, Zelmo Beatty, Big Z with the Utah Jazz. He beat the Daylight Sound because he was an experienced player. He came over from the St. Louis Hawks and, you know, he was a well-established player and he understood the game. So it was, it was pretty challenging, the different players. And, you know, of course we had Caldwell Jones and who else was there?

Who else was there? I used to call him, I can't, he'd be playing for the Nets. Big, heavy, big guy. We used to call him the Whopper. Yeah. Okay. I can't remember his name right here off the bat, but yeah. What was it like going up against a young Moses Malone? Moses was very challenging.

He created problems for young, thin, and quick, and he just understood how to—he had a great understanding of the game, even at an early age as a high school player. I know that it was an incredibly physical league um and i don't know if this is a a good topic something you laugh about or you don't like talking about but in the book they they talk about the time that you and maurice lucas got into it and it appears that you didn't actually think he wanted to fight you because nobody wanted to fight you back then correct well i don't know most people would defend

themselves and and and that's what happened in maurice lucas i just kind of walked up and not and whether i don't um whether i anticipate that we were just gonna uh stare each other down but he uh apparently he thought i was coming with force and he and he caught me with one a real good one and put me down so uh absolutely maurice was probably one of the toughest players in the league did you like that part of it though because when you when you read about it the constant fights that are brought up as topics um and clearly you could hold your own but did that take away from the game at times, or did you just use it to your advantage?

Well, for the most part, it was just an advantage because I never, not at any time, ever looking for a fight. And I think for the most part, like the NBA is now, there was control environment, even though there was not the media exposure whenever there was a difference of an opinion but uh and for the most part yes it was uh that was a fun fun area to work in you win that title in that second year with kentucky you had great records i mean it was it was a good team, as you mentioned at the top, and then they add you to the mix,

and now you have Hubie becomes this legendary coach. What do you most remember about bringing in a championship to a crazed Kentucky fan base? Well, it was long overdue, and I thought about the location and what it meant to those Louisvillians, people of Louisville. It was pretty special, you know, and we didn't have any extraordinary expectations as far as, I don't know what normally happened to a process like that, but I was thinking 25 years later, almost 30 years, 25 years later,

we celebrate that 1975 championship at the Kentucky Derby. The Derby happened to be part of that. It really was a great event. The league is going to merge, but then there's this dispersal draft. Chicago argued that their draft rights to you five years prior still matter. And then you ended up being kind of the first pick. What do you remember about all of that? Because clearly Chicago on the NBA side was fighting to make sure they could get you at center.

Well, about just that uh i think the year before uh chicago had only won like 24 games you know and they just had a bad team and coach uh i can't remember the coach uh we went to Washington. But anyways, I was the first pick and Scott May was the second pick. He was that first round draft charge from college and Scott was

a great player in college and when he arrived in Chicago, his first year he ended up with Mono so he was out that year and the next year in Chicago, his first year, he ended up with mono, so he was out that year. And the next year, he tore up his knee. He was out for that year. And the following year after that, he had problems with his other knee.

So the first three years, Scott did not play with the Chicago Bulls. What did it mean to you personally to go over, and maybe with all the other ABA guys that ended up having amazing careers, but there's just going to be doubt, right? Oh, these guys aren't NBA players. Okay, whatever. And then you come in and you immediately produce. You end up being a Hall of Famer. How much pride did you take in that,

that really the transition wasn't as tough as everybody thought it would be? that really the transition wasn't as tough as everybody thought it would be? Well, apparently, my first year in Chicago, we did not have the kind of success. Initially, we excelled at the very end and really turned things around. But it was really truly a struggle in Chicago because every year we were not doing very well and they would make just some changes. I remember when Bobby Wilkinson came through, we really accepted, we picked it up. Reggie Thears played very well.

And right after the end of the season, Bobby Wilkinson ended up leaving. One year. So, you know, our personnel, we didn't have one player. I think we had Mickey Johnson and Reggie Theus end up making the All-Star game team once, I think. Maybe twice, I don't know. But we never had that collective group of individuals that we need to be very competitive, consistently have that competitive spirit in Chicago.

Well, wherever you went, the team succeeded. And I know at the very end, you still loved playing basketball. Remember watching you run around with the Celtics there at the end, and then you went overseas and just a guy who has an incredibly accomplished life in the game. So, hey, I thank you very much for this, and I look forward to having all this kind of bring back some memories for you guys. So, thanks. Well, thank you very much. Bounce pass down low for Gilmore.

Knocked away, loose on the floor, and stolen by Marvin Barnes. More hands to D'Antoni. D'Antoni swings to Barr, down low. Marvin almost lost it. Time running out on the shot clock as he puts it up, and no good. Nice move, but it wouldn't drop. A rebound taken by Gilmore and a foul that could be a backcourt foul, and it is against Marvin Barnes.

As just off to our left, Joe Mullaney yells, no, Marvin, no, and then sits down and says, why, why? I think he's really saying, why me? Could be. Bob Costas is one of the biggest voices and faces in sports television and has been for a long time, and it's a real joy for me to get a chance to catch up with him. And the reason, as we know, we're talking a little ABA here.

And, Bob, what I love about this, your story, your start at Syracuse, which is where I do want to start. I love that your annual salary in the early 70s was the same as mine at my first job about 30 years later. So I don't know who did worse. But I think then adjusted for inflation, I might have been doing slightly better, but it wasn't like either one of us had a lot of spare cash at that point. No, it's, it's tough when you're back at your apartment and a lot of this stuff is turned off and you're doing the math on how much it's actually

costing you to go to work every day, as opposed to how much you're putting away. Um, let's, let's go back to that Syracuse. You'd been on the air up there and the story, it's almost like you were the first auto tune and that's how you got the job. Oh yeah. Um, my roommate for one year at Syracuse university, the guy named Roger Holstein, little aside, he was the guy who started web MD. One of those great ideas where once somebody has the idea, everyone else goes, why didn't I think of that? That's the most obvious thing. But Roger started WebMD, which was way ahead of the curve with the internet. All the things that are wrong with the internet, something like WebMD is one of the things that's great about the internet. So Roger has done better than both of us combined, I assure you of that. But the reason why I bring his name up, he was a big basketball fan and his cousin, Harry Weltman, was the president and in effect the general manager of the Spirits of St. Louis once the Carolina Cougars moved to St. Louis and they were owned by the

Silner brothers. And that's another story which I'm sure we'll get to. And Harry, who had been around sports in New York, was a huge Knicks fan, had worked for NFL films, had played some college basketball. He becomes the president of the spirits. And so even though Roger's life's work lay in a different direction, as a guy in his early 20s, he said, yeah, I'll take this offer to work in the front office for a while. It'll be fun. And so within the first few days of his being there, he says, hey, my old roommate from Syracuse is a really good young sports broadcaster. my old roommate from Syracuse is a really good young sports broadcaster. He should apply for this job. So he calls me and I say, Roger, this sounds great, but these games are on KMOX in St. Louis. I knew that. I was a student of broadcasting and the whole landscape. They're on KMOX,

a 50,000 watt radio station, the flagship station of the Cardinals, Jack Buck, Harry Carey, Joe Garagiola, later Gary Bender, on and on. And of course, Joe Buck, eventually, one of the most storied radio stations in the country. They're not going to hire a 22-year-old kid. He says, look, I'll at least make sure that your tape is heard. So now my next problem is, do I have a tape of any basketball work that I've done? This is back in the era, Ryan, of reel-to-reel tapes that you had to splice through a thing that went round and round and weighed like 200 pounds. So I find a game that I'd done between Syracuse and Rutgers on the campus station when I was a sophomore, and I listened to it. on the campus station when I was a sophomore, and I listened to it. And it's not bad, but it's certainly not KMOX quality. But then I think again, and there are about a dozen sequences

that are actually better than pretty good. The problem is they're not all actually sequential. So I take them and I edit out the parts that I think are a little rough and I alternate Syracuse with the ball, Rutgers with the ball. If there's a reference to the score that doesn't sound quite right, it's out of chronological order, then I just edited that out. with the bass slightly up and the treble slightly down so that I would sound a little bit older and a little bit more authoritative. And I sent it not to KMOX and not to the Spirits. I sent it directly to my buddy, Roger. I later found out that there were some 200 applicants for the job and they all submitted those kinds of reel-to-reel tapes, most of which were sitting in a box in the Spirit's office. Harry Weltman went out to lunch, and Roger took a big tape recorder, one of those Wollensack tape recorders, put it on Harry's desk, threaded my tape through it, queued it up. And when Harry walked back to the door before he could sit down,

tape through it, queued it up. And when Harry walked back to the door before he could sit down, he said, listen to this. And he pushed the button. And Harry said, hey, this guy's pretty good. So I became one of the four or five tapes that they forwarded to Jack Buck, who was the sports director at KMOX. And they had a few others that had come to the station. And Jack listened to my tape and he liked it too. And so they called and brought me in for an interview. I was 22. I looked like I was 11. In fact, when I met Jack, of course, I was awestruck to meet the great Jack Buck. His first comment was looking me over, how old are you, kid? And I said, I'm 22. And he said, I have ties older than you.

And then he turned and walked out of the room and I'm thinking, well, this isn't going all that well. But I guess I misread it. He liked me. The guy who ran the station liked me. And they hired me for 11 grand a year to do the Spirits Games. And that was it.

That first year, how many times do you think you may have lost your job? Oh my gosh. Well, we're on a podcast, so we can speak freely here. First game is on a Friday night, and the Spirits are at home. Their first two games were home games at the cavernous St. Louis Arena, where the Blues played the sellout crowds, where they contested at least a couple of Final Fours,

but where the Spirits averaged maybe 3,000, 3,500 fans a game and sometimes less than that. And maybe there were 5,000 for the first game. Spirits have a big lead and it slips away late in the game on Friday night. Two nights later, they're hosting rookie Moses Malone and the Utah Stars. And they're ahead by five or six with about a minute and change to go. And they call a timeout. And I turned to Bill Wilkerson, who's the analyst on the broadcast. And I think things are going swimmingly. The initial reaction to the Friday first broadcast is, wow, this is great. You're a young Marv Albert, blah, blah, blah. Maybe they were overly enthusiastic, but I'm walking on air at this point.

And this broadcast, the second one seems to be going well with only about a minute to go. And I turned to Bill and I say, Bill, the spirits seem to have this one well in hand. But Coach Bob McKinnon taking no chances here. The last thing he wants is a repeat of Friday night's blow job. And Wilkerson looks at me. His eyes get as wide as saucers. The engineer veteran guy named Tom Barton, who had done Cardinal games forever with Jack Buck.

He looks past Wilkerson and makes that universal symbol of like rotating your finger around and around, like, just keep going, just keep going. And now my heart is in my throat because I realized what I've said. I complete the broadcast and I'm completely crestfallen. I'm just thinking I'm done. I'm back in Syracuse tomorrow. I got two broadcasts and I'm going to get fired. But the station manager liked me. And he said, you know, be more careful, whatever instructions he gave me. And I was a little immature, I guess, because then I made another mistake. We were embarking on a road trip about a month or two later.

And at that point, I didn't have any money. We discussed that. I didn't have any money. We discussed that. I didn't have any money to begin with. I wasn't making all that much money. All of it was going to rent. There was nothing to save. I didn't have any credit cards. And so I counted on my weekly paycheck. And I didn't even understand that I could have an expense account or anything like that. So it's a Friday morning and I go down to the station in downtown St. Louis, right by the arch to collect the paycheck before going to the airport to catch the flight. The teams didn't travel on charters then. They were commercial flights. So I grabbed the paycheck, but now the bank is closed. Whoever heard of a bank that's closed for lunch?

But they were closed for lunch. So I had to wait for 45 minutes till they open. I cash the check. And then I hop in my Ford Pinto. And I drive to Lambert Airport in St. Louis. And I get stuck in traffic. And the plane leaves without me. But there's another flight a couple hours later. And I get stuck in traffic. And the plane leaves without me.

But there's another flight a couple hours later. And it's only about a 45-minute flight to Memphis. Well, then it starts to rain. And it's a big thunderstorm. And the plane is grounded for a while. Eventually, I get to Memphis. But I don't get to the arena until about six minutes into the first quarter. And Harry Weltman is sitting right behind what would have been the broadcast position.

And he is fuming. It's almost like one of those cartoons where you can almost see the smoke coming out of somebody's ears. And at that point, I am absolutely certain that I'm fired and I will deserve to be fired. But Harry also liked me. And after he cooled off, he was not in favor of booting me. But I remember that after the game, back at the hotel, a lot of the players were gathered in the lobby area and Marvin Barnes, trying to be helpful, be helpful, learning of my plight, said, bro, bro, I just want you to know, if they fire your sorry ass, I have a backup plan for you. Because I've been looking for a little white dude to drive my Rolls Royce. And I'm thinking, how immensely thoughtful and kind. And I could picture myself with little chauffeur's cap and driving know, and driving Marvin around St. Louis just as just in case things didn't work out.

So the next game was in San Antonio, but there was an off day in between. And Robert Highlander ran KMOX, summoned me back. So at 6 a.m. the next morning, I'm on a flight back from Memphis to St. Louis. I walk into his office and he says, I have every right to fire you and I should, but I think you're more stupid than you are irredeemably irresponsible. If anything like this ever happens again, don't even bother to come down to the station. Just go back to Syracuse. That was all the warning I needed. Nothing like that ever happened again.

But within the first two months, I'm thinking this promising start to my career is going nowhere. Let's talk about Marvin. What was it like being around him? You know, Marvin was like, in many respects, he was like a miniature Muhammad Ali, not miniature in size. He was six foot nine, but you know, like a lower case Muhammad Ali, not nearly as profound a figure, but charismatically funny.

You couldn't stay mad at him. Talk about irresponsible. He was self-destructively irresponsible. On pure ability and you having some background with Providence and that whole Big East type situation, you know, Ryan, that he was a legendary player at Providence, teammate of Ernie DiGiorgio. They went to the Final Four one year and had a pretty good chance of winning it. But Marvin was hurt in the semifinal game. Otherwise, Providence might well have faced

Bill Walton and UCLA in the final. But in any case, Marvin was the second player taken in both the NBA and ABA draft after only Bill Walton. That's how highly regarded he was. I am certain that had he stayed on the straight and narrow and been injury-free, he would have been among the 50 greatest players that the NBA named in 1997. He and Moses Malone were both rookies, same year, 1974-75, and it was Marvin Barnes, not Moses Malone, who was the rookie of the year. There were nights when he got 50 points and 25 rebounds. He averaged around 24, 25 points and close to 15, 16 rebounds, something like that as a rookie. He was an electric player. There were nights when the Spirits played Dr. J and the Nets and Marvin Barnes, not Julia Thurman, was the best player

on the court some nights, but Marvin couldn't hold it together. He wound up associating with some very unsavory people. It's a wonder he lived as long as he did some of the dark alleys that he went down during the course of his life. But you couldn't stay mad at him very long. And the story that people most often want me to reprise happens during that first season. We play the Kentucky Colonels in Louisville. Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Louis Dampier, who was an ABA legend. Hubie Brown was their coach. They won the ABA championship that year.

So we play them and we lose. And the next morning, we gather at the airport. Again, no charters, taking a commercial flight. And the trainer who doubled as the traveling secretary hands out the itinerary and it says TWA flight 305. Depart Louisville 8 a.m. Arrive St. Louis 7.56 and Marvin beckons me over, puts an arm around my shoulder, looks down for more than a foot above me, brandishing the itinerary. And he says, bro, bro, do you see this? And I said, yeah. He goes, well, I don't know about you, but as for me, I am not getting on any time machine. you, but as for me, I am not getting on any time machine. Now, when I first tell that story,

people assume if they didn't know anything about Marvin, well, he must've been dumb as a rock. On the contrary, he was irresponsible, but he was quite bright. And he knew that what he was saying was funny. And he just wanted to make sure he said it to someone who would get it, which I did. You know, one of the stories that you tell in the book that I really love about Marvin and it's, you know, there's so many other ones where he would eat the worst food and then just go out and score 40. Um, you know, if he were early to practice, he'd wait in his car outside and make sure he was late. And people were just like, what? And then, you know, Rod Thorne had told us a story where he's like, I finally complimented and talked to him after a great game. And we felt like, you know, we had a couple of beers, he turned the page and he was

like, everything's going to be different. He's like, and the next day he missed the bus. So, you know, he was one of those guys, you feel like he couldn't help himself. But what I loved was, I think there's a story is you're trying to figure it out because this is your only experience. And you're like, is this normal? And he's complaining to you that the reason the team's losing because they're not a team right and he's saying we're not a team and you're thinking oh wow this guy's really opening up to me and then essentially he complains that i mean i want you to tell the story not me tell it but complaining that people weren't looking out for him in the most selfish way possible he would often like during a timeout um lean over and ask the statistician how many points he had, how many assists he had, you know, that kind of thing.

So he goes into this seemingly enlightened spiel and I'm his audience, bro, you know what our problem is? We don't get the concept of team play. Uh-huh. uh-huh. For example, yes, I had 48 points with three minutes to go tonight. Do my boys get me the ball so I can get to 50? No, they do not. That illustrates what I'm trying to tell you. Oh, I see, Marvin.

Right. I got it. Cause it's set up. You set it up so well in the book and you're like, Oh, where this is this real breakthrough moment. And then as soon as I go, Oh no. Oh wait. And you're like, okay. Uh, did they ever considering, you know, demographics, age, access to money, you're on the road. Did they, this isn't in the book, I don't believe. Did they ever ask you to go out with them at that age?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Maurice Lucas, who I liked very much, he was the opposite of Marvin Barnes. Maurice was not only responsible, he was mature and responsible beyond his years. He kept a close eye on his money. He didn't suffer fools gladly. He knew that Marvin was uber talented, but he was disdainful of them because they didn't have the proper work ethic, et cetera, et cetera. So we played in San Antonio one night that first year and Maurice liked me. And he said, I know a place that's

open late. Let's not go back to the hotel and call room service. And he takes me to some place that was a combination restaurant, but also like a disco. That was a deal in the 70s with girls in go-go boots dancing around. but it was also a restaurant. Okay. And it was mostly seafood, right? And one of the items on the menu was Zairean oysters. Now, I never eat oysters. I don't like oysters. It's probably the only time in my life

I've ever had oysters. But it was only a month or two before that, that Muhammad Ali had beaten George Foreman where? In Zaire. Okay. So I say to Lucas, in honor of Muhammad Ali, I'm going to order the Zairean oysters, which I did. What ensued was the worst case of food poisoning that you could ever possibly imagine. And again, we're traveling. We go from San Antonio. The next game is in Salt Lake City and we're on a commercial flight. And I'm pulling that air sickness bag out of the seat pocket in front of me. And the whole team is laughing. And Lucas is greatly amused by the whole thing.

And on top of it, because, and you can check Maurice, he was a terrific player, helped Bill Walton and the Trailblazers win the NBA title over Dr. J and George McGinnis in the 76ers in 1977. Lucas is a terrific player. He never shot three pointers. I don't think he made more than one or two in his entire career, three-pointers. I don't think he made more than one or two in his entire career, ABA and NBA. And although I couldn't play really, I could shoot. I could always shoot free throws. As long as no one was guarding me, I could shoot. So I challenged Maurice to a three-point shooting contest after practice one day. And he thought that I'd be an easy mark, but I beat him. And I beat him out of 10 bucks. And he peeled that I'd be an easy mark, but I beat him and I beat him out of 10 bucks.

And he peeled off the 10 because he was an honorable man, but he didn't like it because he was very careful with his money. And how did he get even? That night, in addition to being on the scene when I ordered something that made me have a near death experience with food poisoning, when I got up to go to the men's room, when I came back, he left. And he stuck me with the bill. He's making, you know, probably 150 grand. I'm making 11 grand. I still had to pay the bill. And then in the morning, he's laughing about that because he got the better of me. And now he's doubly laughing when I'm doubled over, you know, in a window seat and coach heaving.

How much of a storyline, it's just amazing reading about it. Cause it felt like an East coast hockey league where it's like, Hey, we got this player and he fought him and this guy beat this guy up. And then this happened. And I know that people think they know, but you just can't find it. I mean, this league is a mystery. What was the fight storyline like basically being a part of every game? Well, a couple of things here. Um, my first two jobs when I was still a senior at Syracuse, I'm doing games for the Syracuse Blazers of the old Eastern Hockey League, the actual league that the Paul Newman movie Slapshot is based on. I knew guys who were extras in the movie. And the character in Slapshot, Ogie Oglethorpe, is based on Bill Harpo Goldthorpe of

the Syracuse Blazers, whom I knew. And that, as crazy as Slapshot was, it wasn't any crazier than the actual Eastern Hockey League. My next job is the Spirits. By the time I'm 24 years old, I've been to the circus, the zoo, and everything in between, and I have not that much to compare it to. Joe Buck grows up around his dad and around the Cardinals and around broadcasting. I grew up dreaming of it and watching games on TV and listening to them on the radio. I have no real experience by the time I'm 24, except these two crazy things. And it's only in retrospect that I realized that the first two professional experiences I had were unmatched in terms of just craziness of anything that ensued in the next 40 plus years. So in the ABA, there weren't as many fights as in the Eastern Hockey League,

but there were fights and there were guys who were legendary. Cincy Powell, Wendell Ladner, Wendell Ladner, who no one wanted to tangle with. And you know, Ryan, this is true. Um, size and strength are one thing, but all things being even close to equal, it's the crazy guys that you don't want to tangle with the guys who actually like to fight and who don't care, you know? And Wendell Ladner kind of fit in that category. But Maurice Lucas comes into play here. He had to guard Artis Gilmore on many occasions. And Mo was maybe 6'8", and Artis was 7'2".

And the only way that Mo could guard him was to beat him down the floor and try and get some kind of position and then jostle him so that Artis couldn't get too far inside. And Artis actually was a pretty mild-mannered guy. But long about mid-third quarter this night at Freedom Hall, he'd had enough. And he turned and advanced toward Lucas. And this is all happening right in front of me as I'm broadcasting courtside. And the court at Freedom Hall was actually laid down on top of like a dirt floor because they use Freedom Hall for a variety of things, tractor pulls, rodeos, concerts. So if you backed up far enough, you'd fall off the elevated floor and into the

dirt. So Lucas, who was a very tough guy, still didn't really want any part of artist Gilmore. And artist is moving toward him menacingly. And Mo backs up a step. He backs up a step. And eventually he's cornered. If he goes back one more step, he's going to literally fall off the court. And in a moment of desperation, he plants his feet and pops Artis right on the chin and down goes the big A. He just crumples to the floor. If it was a cartoon, those little birdies would be circling over his head

to indicate he was out. And now Lucas, having landed this blow, goes berserk, like, let me at him, let me at him. And everybody has to hold him back. And word of that spreads around the league and nobody wants to tangle with Maurice Lucas after that. It made his reputation, a reputation that carried over into the NBA

when he was the only one willing during the NBA finals to tangle with Daryl Dawkins of the Philadelphia 76ers. And his willingness to do that helped to turn that series around. The Sixers led the final 2-0. And at that point, the momentum shifted and the Trailblazers won the next four games. One of the things about the ABA, Ryan, is that I really think it's the last major sports league that has any element of real mystery and legend about it. You know, the word legend is tossed around in sports. You know, Michael Jordan is many things, but he's less legendary than Satchel

Page or Babe Ruth, or for that matter, Wilt Chamberlain, because almost everything that Michael Jordan or LeBron James or Tom Brady, whoever you want to name, almost everything they did of any consequence, we saw. And it's all archived. We've seen it a zillion times from a zillion different angles. But with the ABA, it was mostly word of mouth. Most of those games weren't on television. So when Maurice Lucas pops Artis Gilmore, that's not on SportsCenter, which didn't even exist then, but there's no equivalent of it.

It's word of mouth that gets around the league. And when Julius Irving performed some of his greatest flights in the ABA that people didn't see, my version of it, as I saw it from my vantage point might be different than Rod Thorne's version of it. That's what legend is. The Dr. J of the NBA was a great and important superstar player, but the Dr. J of the ABA was a legend. That's the part of the book I enjoyed the most.

And as I was sitting talking to Dr. J, you're trying to figure out the way to ask a question where you're thinking like, how can I ask Dr. J what it's like to be Dr. J? He's less impressed with it than all of us are. But you still want this moment because there's just so many excerpts in the book where there's just these reactions where guys, because Dr. J himself was so off the radar as a prospect and being at UMass and the first time people would see him, they'd go, what the hell is this? Like, who is this guy? And I think it's important that you bring up that this version of him is likely better than the NBA version of him. Yeah, he was great in the NBA, but in the ABA, he was just something else again. And he carried that mystique with him,

the NBA. He's largely, not solely, but largely responsible for the merger. He was as big a star at that point in the mid-70s as anybody the NBA had, just about. And the NBA wanted not just to eliminate the bidding war and the competition, but they wanted to bring Dr. J into the NBA. As much as they wanted to bring the four franchises, the Nets, the Pacers, the Nuggets, and the Spurs, they wanted to bring Dr. J into the NBA. There were lots of really good players in the ABA. 10 of the 24 players in the first All-Star game post-merger had played in the ABA. Half of the 10 starters in the first final post-merger had been ABA players.

But Dr. J was the symbol of the league. And people, when he wound up on national television with the 76ers, or when he came to NBA arenas, there was this whole idea of, we've got to see this guy in person. We've got to see how the reality matches up to the legend. The business side of this is really important because it felt like every time a franchise was ready to fold or move or whatever, they'd get a new round of funding by the next group that's like, hey, the merger's just down the road. And there's all these guys going,

I'm not buying this team because of any reason other than I want to have that piece of paper once this merger happens. How prominent was that as far as the decision-making? And just, I mean, look, that's a bigger part than the games itself as the league tries to figure out a way to survive and potentially make out financially by merging with the league. Yeah, there was always the idea that somewhere down the road, there's a merger. The last season of the ABA, 75-76, the season begins with 10 teams. When it's over, as they limp to the finish line, there are only seven. And three of those seven, the Kentucky Colonels, only a year before had been the champions, the Spirits, and the Virginia Squires, who were always operating on a shoestring.

I mean, players missed many paychecks. They'd go a couple of months without being paid. It was not uncommon for a team like the Squires to show up at a road destination, check into the hotel, and the management wouldn't give them their keys because they hadn't paid the bill from the last time. That was the circumstance. Not in Indiana, where the Pacers were a flagship franchise. Not in Denver, where they were playing to huge crowds. Not in San Antonio, which wasn't doing as well at the gate as Denver, but was still getting, you know, nine, ten thousand a game. And not in on Long Island, which is where the Nets played, where Dr. J, even with Dr. J, they didn't draw like the Knicks drew at Madison Square Garden, but they drew enough. And they had a local television deal. Those four teams were in a different category than than the others. a different category than the others. And the idea was, from the NBA standpoint, they may have thought, we can just bleed these guys dry. We'll just wait for the whole league to collapse,

and then we'll sign whatever players, once they're scattered around, we'll sign whatever players we want. But then they saw the opportunity to take the four franchises that were viable, which they did, and then figure out how to eliminate without having to go through litigation, eliminate the other three, which leads, as you know, Ryan, to one of the great stories, not only of the ABA, but one of the great stories in the history of sports business. Well, that's the TV deal. Is that what we're talking about here with St. Louis? Yeah. The Virginia Squires were in such desperate financial straits that they were able to be bought off. And John Y. Brown, the one-time governor of Kentucky, wanted to be in the league

and they let him buy into the league with the Buffalo Braves, perhaps, and the Celtics might've been involved. I forget exactly what it was, but they let him come into the NBA. And the players from the Spirits, the Squires, and the Colonels were put into a dispersal draft and the players were ranked according to their abilities. And so maybe Moses Malone, if some team took Moses Malone in the dispersal draft, then the Spirits, which was Moses' last team after Utah had folded, the Spirits got $750,000. And maybe Marvin Barnes and Maurice Lucas were worth $500,000. So that was part of the compensation. But the owners of the Spirits or their legal representatives had another idea. They said, listen, if we were to get in,

wouldn't we be part of the network television contract? Wouldn't we share in the network television contract? Yeah. Okay. so maybe each team at that point was getting $500,000, $600,000 a year from network television, which was CBS. And their main concern is we're at the finish line to getting this merger done. Dr. J is coming into the league. We're getting four franchises.

We're getting expansion fees. This is all good. We just have to make sure there's not an antitrust suit looming over us that these other three will go away and leave us alone. And the spirits owners say, okay, well, there were seven ABA teams. If we were to be part of the league, wouldn't we be entitled then to one seventh of whatever the four teams that are getting in would receive?

Yeah, I guess. All right. So you don't have to pay us off. You don't have to give us $3 million or whatever it took to get the Squires to go away. Just give us that share of the network television revenue. And then here comes the key clause, in perpetuity. Why the NBA ever agreed to that, I don't know. But pretty soon, that $500,000, $600,000 a year became tens of millions of dollars a year for every team. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were coming. Michael Jordan was coming right behind them. The explosion of network television, the dream team, sports marketing, Nike, the NBA on NBC. And so now the network television money is a bonanza for every team.

The difference is that all those teams have overhead. They got to pay for their arenas. They got to pay the salaries of the players and everything else. All the former owners of the Spirits have to do with no overhead at all is walk to the mailbox in effect the spirits. And eventually, the NBA, after years of trying to somehow entice them, offer them something to close the thing out and eliminate the in perpetuity, and they began to realize this is now international rights. And what if eventually there are games being shown on Saturn? Do these people and their heirs collect that money as well? And I think they had to pay something like half a billion dollars

just to tie a ribbon around the thing and have the Silma brothers say, Thank you. We're satisfied now. Have a good rest of your life. Slightly better deal than half a million dollars from Marvin Barnes. It was unbelievable. I had read about it.

I had known about it. And then you're right. It's about a half a billion. They had to cut them up front before the last ESPN TNT deal, which was massive. It was almost triple. So I'm sure the league was like,

look, we got to cut this check now, get rid of these guys before we start doing, because the TV deals have been even astronomical since the settlement. Your job in all of this is still to try to keep this going. What were some of the biggest challenges despite the shoestring budget and you learning this? I mean, you have a passion for it. It's become your life. But what were the biggest challenges?

Because I know that they had some odd pairings and they tried some different things with you on the broadcast. Well, on the radio side, a great guy since passed away named Bill Wilkerson was my partner only on home games because KM Works didn't want to travel anybody for the road games. So I did the road games by myself and a handful of games are on television. There might've been 10 or 12 on television. They were simulcasts like Chick Hearn used to do with the Lakers. So you're talking too rapidly for television, but you have to do it for both radio and TV. So that was a challenge, but I enjoyed it when I was 23, 24 years old. In the second of the two seasons, one of the sponsors was enamored of Harry Weltman's wife, Arlene, who was very knowledgeable and very well-spoken. And Arlene had been a halftime guest of mine on one of the televised games. And the sponsor said, hey, why don't we have Bob pair with Arlene

and she'll be his color person on the broadcast? Well, there's a big difference between being a likable, attractive, knowledgeable, well-spoken guest and all of a sudden being the color person slash analyst alongside a 24-year-old kid who's calling the games. So this was not, let's put it this way, this was not the equivalent of Costas and Doug Collins. It was not the equivalent of Marv and Mike Fratello. It was not the equivalent

of Mike Green and Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson. It was something well down, well down the ladder from that. The ultimate test there when you're, when you're working with the owner's wife on the broadcast. Yeah. Luckily this is, this is what it was. We were such close friends, all of us. I was often at Harry and Arlene's house and Roger, who I mentioned earlier, who had played some high school basketball. We'd be playing pickup games in the backyard. It was like a

spirit's family. And again, as I said before, I guess I realized it was kind of loose and crazy, but I didn't realize how loose and crazy because I didn't have enough of a frame of reference to compare it to. It was only as the years went by that I realized that this was unique, a word that's often misused, but it was truly unique. I want to finish this way, because there's such a sense of pride, not only in your voice, but everyone I've talked to about this, to see Dr. J light up, to be like, thank, and then thank me at the end for going, hey, I want people to keep understanding this. For those that want more information, droppingdimes.org is a foundation to try to help the surviving ABA players that are

in need. And the NBA has talked about doing some different things here. Whenever it comes down to the money and the business side, we understand, you know, these, these are not easy solutions, but if you wanted to donate, they should get on some sort of licensing agreement to get some of this gear out there, because I'm telling you the, the rarity of some of these jerseys and the shorts and the t-shirts and the hoodies and all this stuff, it would sell because it's so cool. It's so unique. It's very seventies. Um, all of this stuff stuff is great. I did want to mention that, but I think I would close in that I don't know that something that

would be this... We can't call it a failure. It isn't a failure. The dunk contest, the three-point line, all the things that they were doing, the way they were going to battle with the NBA, that they had a real thing here. There's an incredible sense of pride for something here that I think is very important to keep alive.

Ryan, it's a fraternity. We had a 50th anniversary get together, which appropriately was in Indianapolis. They won three of the nine ABA championships. They carried the banner into the NBA. Well over a hundred former ABA players came from not only all over the country, but some were living in Europe or whatever. And they all came to enjoy one another's company once again and to swap tall tales. And there's a tremendous sense not only of pride in terms of how the quality of the league was misunderstood. There were a lot of really good players, many of whom, Ryan, became household names in the NBA. Dan Issel and George McGinnis and Moses Malone and Artis Gilmore and, of course, Dr. J and the Iceman George Gervin. But then there were players whose primes were over and who either never played in the NBA or they were injured toward the end of their ABA stints,

or they had very short NBA careers because they were toward the end of the line as players. But guys like Freddie Lewis and Roger Brown and Mel Daniels, who were so great with the Pacers, James Silas, Captain Late, so nicknamed because of how many clutch shots he made for the San Antonio Spurs. Teammate of George Gervin. Blew out his knee in the last year of the ABA. One of the best players I ever saw, at least of that era. Jimmy Jones, Willie Wise, Mack Calvin. I'm leaving people out.

That the essence of their careers was in the ABA. And so while they might have been well compensated compared to the average person in the 1960s and 70s, they didn't make enough money to be independently wealthy, and they didn't have the fame that the NBA would have brought to them. But those of us who are part of the ABA, we know, we respect it, we appreciate it. And we also care about the guys who fell through the cracks. If you've played any length of time in the NBA, you've got a pension, not only the handsome salary you likely made, but you've got a pension. There are a lot of ABA guys, their numbers are dwindling. attention. There are a lot of ABA guys, their numbers are dwindling. Just in the past few months, Goo Kennedy, Bird Averitt, and George Carter have all passed away. The number is

dwindling, but there are ABA players, most of whom are doing just fine, some better than fine, but there are those that are having difficulty. They can't pay their medical expenses. Sadly, when some pass away, they need help with, their families need help with the funeral expenses, whatever it might be. And so the Dropping Dimes Foundation helps these people out,

but at the same time, respecting their dignity, not naming them, just doing what they can to help them get by. But here's the irony of it. And it's easy to say something like this and spend somebody else's money. But if all 30 NBA teams, if each of those teams took $100,000 a year out of the petty cash drawer, fine money would cover it. $3 million a year would fund that pension in perpetuity because by attrition, a lot of these guys are passing away as the years go by. $3 million a year wouldn't be enough for these guys to live lavishly, but for those who need it,

it would give them a chance to live with greater dignity and take care of their basic expenses. And just looking at the picture of all the surviving members, again, it's droppingdimes.org. It hits you too. You can see there are some guys that need some help. So I'll make sure I donate as well. And hopefully those listening to this also make, also make a donation. Yeah, of course, of course. Very easy to do because these guys have provided, you know, foundation of the entertainment that I've spent a lifetime making a living on. So I know that it was a weird start for you. It's been a great run. I also know that St. Louis is home for you. So it's kind of cool that you start with the spirits of St. Louis, see how long this goes. And also, no matter where your career took you, it's your home base as well, along with New York.

So it's been really cool to catch up with you. It really is a huge part, not just of my career, but of my life. And if I went on at greater length than I usually would, it's just because I love talking about the ABA. And I know that a podcast is different than a telecast or a radio broadcast. So you get a little bit more room. So I hope I didn't wear you or your listeners out. But it's a subject that's still close to my heart. Not even close.

I didn't want to take up too much more of your time. So I really appreciate it. This was awesome. Thanks a lot, Ryan. Take care. I hope everybody enjoyed something. We're trying to do a little bit different here on the podcast with these ABA stories. I'd urge you to go out and check out Loose Balls.

We didn't even come close to covering it all. I mean, I could have just kept doing these interviews over and over again, but eventually wanted to get them out. The book is a lot of fun and it's a lot of fun for, I would say, even though I don't feel younger all the time, a younger audience in comparison to what the ABA was like. And I was going back asking my father about a lot of this stuff. When you just learn about a Connie Hawkins and go, okay, wait a minute, was this guy really that good? Because I remember running into Hubie Brown once going, hey, what about this guy? What about that guy? And then he just stopped to be like, no, Connie Hawkins, the Hawk, man. He's like, this is what you had to understand. And he just kind of set you straight on it. you straight on it. Now there's tons of video out there where you can find some of this. I watched the Nets and Nuggets finals game where the Nets won it in six games and they were down huge. I watched the whole game with Dr. J out there, Dan Issel, a bunch of other names as well.

But when you think about the players, as I said at the start of the first podcast, all of these players that it was like, okay, is this guy really that good? And the ABA was paying money supposedly up front. That wasn't always the case. But the numbers that were announced are a lot more. So they had a big-time influx of talent and a lot of younger talent. I mean, we'll just run through the names. Rick Barry, Hall of Famer.

Zelmo Beattie, who I had all sorts of appreciation for after the fact because I didn't know that much about him. Roger Brown. Billy Cunningham, who I knew more as a coach with the Sixers. Louis Dampier. Mel Daniels, who was incredible for those Pacers teams, Julius Irving, as we mentioned, George Girvin got his start there, Artis Gilmore, who we had on, Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood, whose story is incredible in itself. It's his transition. They came up with

these rules of hardship to try to get guys into the ABA while the NBA was watching this going, what are we doing here? Dan Issel, Moses Malone, my second favorite NBA player of all time, George McGinnis, who had an unbelievable story, even getting into the league, Charlie Scott, David Thompson, on and on and on. There's one thing that I want to close on here. And that is the NBA is so specific about its culture, right? When you think about the NBA, there's just something about it that's a little bit cooler than the other leagues, whether it's the sneakers, the connection of music, the performance part, the, I would say the individual part of it, which I know can turn some people off a little bit, but there's something about being an NBA star that I think culturally is different than any of

the other sports. And however you define culture or what you think it is when you see it or don't see it, I think the NBA is a really easy thing to understand. It's just a little bit different. It's got a vibe about it. That's cooler. vibe about it that's cooler, that's better, that's better for consumers. And the origin of a lot of this NBA style, whether it was Jordan wearing unbelievable gear very early in his career and the way he played the game, a lot of this stuff dates directly back to the ABA, where they went out and played more of a playground style. There were more individuals. There was an up-and-down style. There's just all of these players that kind of stood out

where an old-school basketball mentality looked down on what these guys are doing, when in fact what they were doing was kind of laying the foundation for what the game was ultimately going to become in the NBA. And I'd like to close on this. If you have it in you and you enjoyed these podcasts, please donate to droppingdimes.org.

You can go to droppingdimes.org and check out what they are doing with the Dropping Dimes Foundation for ABA players. And I know they would appreciate it. So I hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. Thank you.