The Ryen Russillo Podcast - Anthony Edwards’s Frustrations, Knicks-Pacers Game 4, and Prepping for a Crazy Offseason With Brian Windhorst

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Russillo starts the show by breaking down the Thunder’s commanding 3–1 lead over the Timberwolves (1:24). Then, he’s joined by Brian Windhorst to discuss whether either team has the edge in the Eastern Conference finals, why some players could be avoiding the Western Conference for years to come, and what could be a trade-heavy offseason (16:14). Plus, Life Advice with Kyle (56:15)! Should I throw a basketball game against sixth graders just to annoy my colleague who takes it too seriously? Check us out on YouTube for exclusive clips, livestreams, and more at https://www.youtube.com/@RyenRussilloPodcast. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Ryen Russillo Guest: Brian Windhorst Producers: Steve Ceruti, Kyle Crichton, Mike Wargon, and Jonathan Frias Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem? Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. com on today's part of the break it down ok ct three one lead in the west confines gets into so that love for all participating players with thunder and

big breakdown of and some of his struggles and my frustrations, not just his. Brian Windhorst on the Easter Conference Finals, understanding Kat. There's a lot to get into there. He's going to talk a lot about Minnesota, a lot about OKC, and then we'll look ahead to even some potential scenarios this off season. And we've got life advice. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions and terms apply.

Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Great game last night. OKC taking the series lead in Minnesota 3-1. This was an absolute battle. I enjoyed it greatly. I do believe that OKC is the only team in the NBA that wins that game in Minnesota last night. Minnesota shot it better, slightly better, 51% overall though, 54% on threes. They shot seven more free throws. They made

six more. They were plus five in rebounds. They were 30 to 22 in assists. They won the points to paint. And yes, they did have seven more turnovers, but even with the seven more turnovers, OKC was only plus three in points off of turnovers. So there's a huge statistical profile that tells you like, you don't lose that basketball game when you do so much of what Minnesota did last night. Minnesota's largest lead in the game, any guesses? Two points. This lead in the game. Any guesses? Two points.

This was a possession game. Uh, that's really what it came down to. Cause the most important stat from this, despite everything that I told you about the Timberwolves profile of game four, uh, was that. Okay. See finished with 11 more field goal attempts at one point in the second half. They had 19 more field goal attempts at one point in the second half. They had 19 more field goal attempts. So that's how you win this game by winning the possession battle. The other factor that maybe some of you, when you would hear me say, cause

basically, Hey, did somebody have an observation? How can we dismantle that observation? I saw a bit of that last night when I said, I thought, okay, see, and this is a credit to their toughness and what those guys did in the fourth quarter. We're going to get to Chet, SGA and Jaylen Williams a little bit later here in the open. But you could simply point to be like, well, the reason Minnesota lost is because aunt Randall were terrible. Okay. But everybody else is like, I just thought it was such a tough game to win because of how Minnesota just kept hanging around.

Even though I thought throughout it, you know, you watch a game for two and a half hours, you know, first quarters or second quarter, like, all right, how do I feel? I'm like, this is okay. Sees came the entire night in Minnesota would not go away, but okay. See, would not give up that lead. So aunt has two shot attempts in the first half. Yes. Two total shot attempts shot attempts in the first half. Yes, two total shot attempts.

He finishes with 16 points. Randall in 28 minutes, one of seven, five points. He was benched at eight oh seven of the fourth quarter did come back in with 14 seconds left. So you've got 16 from Ant, five from Randall. That's 21 versus 74 points for HGA and Jalen Williams. Let's start with the defense on Ant, um, because it was a huge part of this game. It looked like, okay, see a more concerted effort to extend the pressure.

It felt like once Ant was trying to bring the ball up by half court, Dort would meet him at the half court line. And it looked like he was, Dort was hitting a blocking sled. We just get his hands into him, just muck it up. So it's like, okay, you're bringing the ball across half court, but whatever the first thing that you want to do is like, I'm going to be in the way. And Dort is incredible. Door had a defensive possession against Randall where Randall was trying to body

him and Randall was trying to get to like either side and he tried two or three different times in Dort just met him body for body and cut him off all three times. It was just outstanding stuff. And so you have Dort, who's one of the best defense players in the league, we already know this, just deciding whenever Ant comes across half-court, I'm just going to be in the way. And knowing that he would have helped the entire time. Because sometimes when you watch teams with defensive pressure and they extend it out too far, it's like, okay, but you're actually against a really athletic player. You're opening yourself up to, like you want that guy on you so that you can kind of take them off the dribble and then

you're behind him. He's scrambling to get back into the play. But when OKC's entire team defensive strategy is to make sure that there's support for any chance that Dort gets beat, you know, it's something you can get away with. There's other Randall possessions too, where it's like, if you really want Randall dribbling this far away, like Randall's one thing when he's below the three-point line and trying to create, although against OKC, you're not going to have a lot of time to freelance as we know. But other times where he's like five feet past the three point line and you're like, what is going on here?

Like he's starting a back down dribble from up here, like this isn't gonna work. So really good extended defensive pressure from the Thunder throughout this game. Staying on the ant part of this, because even though we had the two field goal attempts in the first half, you could go, what's going on? I was way more disappointed in Ant last night in the second half. The off ball stuff from him is not enough. So they want to get the ball out of his hands because of the door pressure

and the defense prioritizing him. So it's like, if you get them off the ball, can you then bring him up a little bit later and maybe he gets some momentum and it frees up the defense or it can freeze up ant to attack this defense from a different angle. And I saw ant dejected at times, disinterested at times. And as much as I love him, like, that's not something that I expect. You want to have a bad shooting night? Fine. And I'm not asking him just to take 20 shots.

So it's like, well, cool. At least he was still aggressive because sure he could take 20 shots. And I think 15 of them would have been really bad last night, uh, with the way the thunder were defending him. But he just wasn't aggressive enough because I think he was so frustrated with what was happening. Uh, there was one play where he was left to right. It's in the second and half.

He's off the ball. The ball's at the top. He's left. He trails underneath the ball. He's hoping to maybe to get a handoff or get something off the cut. He can't get himself free from Dort and he just runs to the right side. And he's just done. He's done with that play.

And it ended up being a shot clock violation. Now you could argue, hey, he doesn't want to bring dork back into the, well, there was just too much of this stuff. There was too much of this stuff where it's like, Oh, I try to make a cut. They shut me off. Caruso even had some good off ball stuff with him a couple of times, obviously not this much dork, but that's something that is not acceptable. You want to make the right play and not shoot a ton in the first half.

I'm totally fine with that. But if you start getting so frustrated that it's leading to lapses on defense for, I think he had four total rebounds last night. Like that's where his, his frustration leaked into all the other parts of his game, which is something I think in the past, when he hasn't shot it well, you've still gotten max effort and max impact from him on those other parts of this. Look, there was another play, there's a million of these that I could go to, but one in particular where even if Ant had the ball, like they had a play with Rudy where he screened Dort

twice, he gets Dort off of him a little, I emphasize like a little there, and he's on the right side, and he's looking at Chet ignoring Rudy right in his face, and Wallace is off of the corner, doesn't care about the corner at all, and Dor actually hustles and gets back into the play before Ann has even settled into what he's going to do. That was at 107, 100, with 6.55 left.

They just brought Rudy back in. They just brought Chet back in. A little bit here on Rudy. Rudy's basically a must in this series, whatever the highs and lows are of him. We've seen this throughout this entire playoff run from Minnesota where Finch is like, okay, I like the Rudy minutes. I like some of the other stuff that we're doing here a little bit better, but Rudy feels like a necessity because at least he is something to think about for Oklahoma city driving to the hoop. And I would tell you, I don't know what the numbers are, but just the visual part of it, because maybe the free throws are going to throw off the efficiency here

with SGA, but I think Rudy, for the most part, held up really well against SGA and some of these battles where he's gotten stuck with him in the switch. So I think I've covered the ant stuff enough here, um, because I got into that play, I already had that written down. Um, look, okay. See answered every single time last night, uh, in a way that you just don't expect a young team and I don't know what's, what's right or wrong about how we're supposed to talk about them, was there enough seasoning in the 24 playoff run losing

in the second round, a series where I really still didn't think they were going to lose to Dallas, they lose to Dallas, Jaylen Williams doesn't do enough as a number two, uh, you know, Hey, they're young, they're going to be back at it next year, they battle with Denver more of a battle than we probably thought it would be going into that. But maybe growing up in that game five, certainly growing up last night in game four, but you wonder like vet teams blow leads to, by the way. Uh, but okay.

See every time it was like, here comes Minnesota. You know, they get it to two, it's right back to five. Now it's seven. Minnesota gets it to two. You know, all of these moments where you're like, is Minnesota going to find a way to pull this one out? Okay. See answered every time and never actually gave up the lead at any moment in the second half.

I think it was 91 91. the second half, I think it was 91-91. And then it was just this seesawing of two to five to seven to four, just over and over and over again, and it felt like everybody for OKC made the shots they needed to make and it wasn't just SGA as we know, Chet was four or five in the fourth, Jalen Williams was five or seven in the fourth. Um, you know, this is something that we've always grown accustomed to in the NBA. And they're like, Hey, who's your big three? We don't do that anymore.

We're probably not going to be doing it for a long time. The Thunder looked like they had a big three last night with what they got from their three main guys, even though Kaysom Wallace didn't even shoot it. Well, I thought he had some huge plays, just heady stuff, a strip of Rudy that was big. You know, reading Chet on that dunk on the offensive rebound where they pulled that one down. So there was just, the depth was on display for the Thunder. Uh, and I think probably the most frustrating play, if you're the Timberwolves

fan is it's 113, 109, 334 to go in the game. SGA falls down, trying to get Rudy falls down, throws it to Jalen Williams. He hits another three 116, 109. And we're like, okay, maybe this is over. And it still really wasn't over. Uh, on the other side from Minnesota, DeVincenzo had a really good night, but everything's open. DeVincenzo should be 50% from three in these games. All of these shots are wide open.

I know he hit a couple of shots in the first quarter. I didn't think he was very good in the first quarter, but he turned it around, hit everything. Alexander Walker was incredible. Jamie McDaniels, who I do like, but can have like seven in the first quarter, and then you look at the game and you're like, he ended up with nine?

Like, oh, that's right. I guess I didn't really notice him on offense the rest of the game. He finished with 22 points. So they got everything around the two guys that you needed to win this game. But you know, the number two shot creator for Minnesota is watching all of this again in the fourth quarter in Randall, just like he was in game two, where the number two shot creator pick one between Cheddar, Jlen Williams are putting up massive numbers. So I think the last thing I would say about this OKC team, because again, I'm just in awe

of this group. I really am. They were weird. Well, look, they've been weird at times. We're like, what's the personality of this team? Like, what's their fucking deal? Right? Remember game seven, or excuse me, game six at Denver. And it's like, are these guys not taking this seriously enough? Are they? I don't know the right way to describe it. I think those of you that have paid attention to this understand what I'm

trying to say, but you're watching them just be almost like completely unbothered by this. Like they're not gonna have anybody get up at the podium and be like, we need all of these cliche things that we seem to all fall for and we want to hear, we feel like are mandatory that shows us that they care. But maybe that's the best way to describe it.

After some of these losses, you could think with them is like, do they not care enough? And game three was such a blowout. It was a blowout from the jump. So I don't really know what they were supposed to say, but I think what we're learning and yes, there's still a lot of work to do, but they're the clear favorites the rest of the way. I don't think they're going to blow a three one lead of Minnesota here as much

as I admire what Minnesota did in game four last night. But maybe what we're learning is that their lack of passion at times when they've had a bad performance is really more of a reflection to how incredibly confident this young group is, even without a title on the resume. The NBA playoffs are finally here and there's no better way to be a part of the action than with FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. After another competitive season, the top teams are ready to battle their way through the playoff bracket in hopes of taking home the championship. And if you think you know how it's all going to go down, then make those predictions pay off with FanDuel, an NBA profit boost. Simply make your bet, activate your boost, and go for even bigger winnings.

Okay, taking a look at tonight, game four, at Indiana. The line here, Pacers minus two. Total on this one is 221. So if you look at the totals, granted we had an overtime game that had an absurd number of points. Game two was 225. Game three was only 206. So we saw such an under trend with the playoffs in the beginning of this whole thing. I even was looking at game

five with OKC in Minnesota. I think that's a 222 as of right now. But I'm feeling over. I'm feeling But I'm feeling over. I'm feeling people kind of feeling each other out here, maybe no knee Smith. So let's go Pacers minus two over two 21. That's plus two 40. Um, I may, I don't know if the handicappers are looking at this one, thinking that game three is, you know, they don't want to set that number too low. And they think this keep this series is going in the other direction where they're going to be more familiar with each other.

Things are going to kind of, but honestly, with these two teams going at it and probably knowing exactly what they need to attack here. I like the over in this one. So, and look, it's a little bit more fun. Don't just be a spectator this postseason. Head to fan drill.com slash Orion R Y E N to download America's number one sports book and make every moment more.

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biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. I'm excited to talk to Brian Windhorst from ESPN and also one of my favorite podcasts, The Hoop Collective with Tim Bontemps and Tim McMahon. I do enjoy the pod. Three educated guys talk about sport. Yeah, I love. Sometimes I think you guys are arguing, but you're saying the same thing, which at times can make it very entertaining.

Well, you know, the thing about it is we do it, we often do it very late at night Well, you know, the thing about it is we do it, we often do it very late at night and at the end of like a long ESPN day, which you know what a long ESPN day is. And it frazzles the mind a little bit. It addles the brain. There's not always perfect common sense operating. Yeah, no, I understand. We had some late ones with Bill where I'm like, what the hell did I say? But let's dig into this,

because there's a bunch of different things that we can get to. I do want to start because I started the pod on the Western Conference finals of the game last night. I want to start with New York getting game three. And it was really interesting to watch Tibbs, made the change of the starters with Mitchell Robinson in for Hart,

and then had, I think, at 1.7 different lineups that hadn't played together in a regular season, they're losing and you're like, Oh, here we go. Tibbs is experimenting like this shows desperation and then they win the game. Uh, where were you with the delicate nature of, of the way Tibbs, and I don't love the like, Oh, he did something different. So now he opens up to criticism. I don't think coaches actually look at it that way as much as the media does, but there was a moment where it was like,

oh, they're shot because look at all these things they're trying in the playoffs. Yeah, he was, it was a potentially very messy next day because it was, you know, here's the way I think. It was the beginning of a new news cycle. So if you're starting a new week, and I know it was a holiday, but you're starting a new week and the Knicks are down 3-0, you know that the world is not giving the Pacers credit. That doesn't happen.

It annoys me, but that's the case. So it would have been all about the decisions to do what he did. I actually thought the decision that was the boldest decision happened at the end, which was to keep Brunson on the bench. I know he had five fouls, but you don't have to wait till a minute and a half. You know, you bring him, he kept him on the bench because what was out there was working.

And it's not an insult. This is where we get into nuance. And it's so dangerous in today's day and age to get into nuance. Not so much for your listeners, but for the aggregation that happens. It's the second and third level. But he didn't keep him on the bench because he doesn't think he's a great player. He kept him on the bench because he knew the alignment that he had on the court was more favorable than if he put him out there. And that's what took guts. It didn't take guts to play Landry Schemm in the first half. I mean, you know, that was out of his comfort zone. But the guts was to leave Brunson on the bench when his team was playing really,

really well. And he liked the alignment when Brunson was staring at him like, why aren't you putting me in the game? And then he put Brunson in the game at the exact correct moment for Brunson to still have an impact on the game. And he was kept his two timeouts so he could do offense defense and take Brunson and Kat out of the game. I think in the last like 90 seconds, I think they only had to defend with those guys once. Maybe twice, but there was once.

And of course, immediately the Pacers put the two of them into a pick and roll. And Nick survived it. They got a stop out of it. And so I thought Tibbs strongest coaching happened at the end when all the lineups were already scrambled out there. And it was out of his comfort zone. And had he lost, he would have had to explain it differently. And I wonder how much pressure he felt because I don't think his philosophy changed after

game two. I don't think he was like, well, what I believe is now no longer valid. I have to switch my belief. And I'm wondering how much pressure he felt after game two to be able to say that he did something because you don't play one way for the entire playoffs and then change in that spot. Um, but I give him credit. He, he pulled it off when it mattered.

How would you describe cat to someone who's just getting into basketball? Yeah. Um, he's an awkward guy, actually cat and, uh, I think he's a little bit How would you describe cat as someone who's just getting into basketball? Yeah. Um, he's an awkward guy. Actually cat and, um, and Halliburton have the same feature. They have a very high waist. That is what scouts will talk about where they have long legs and a very high waist and it makes both of them look a little awkward. Like, did you see the Steve Urkel,

Tyrese Halliburton thing? It was hilarious and everything. The reason that people look at Tyrese Halliburton and compare him to Steve Urkel, if you're a person of a certain age, is because Urkel always had the high pants, has a high waist. So Townes is gonna look a little awkward because he has very long legs relative to your average

NBA player. And as a result, when he moves, he moves in a different fashion than you normally see an NBA player move. So I'll give you an example. When he hit that big three in the fourth quarter and he kind of some, I can't remember which pacer kind of came out, I think it was Siakam came up under him and he kind of like sprawled on the ground like a, like a spider. Um, that was just cause you know, he, he falls awkwardly.

He does things awkwardly. So he's a player that even if he was the quintessential NBA player, you're gonna look at him playing a little awkwardly. The other thing is he is a big man who prefers to play on the perimeter. Now we're kind of comfortable seeing that. We see that a lot, but it is a little bit awkward. He plays outside in instead of inside out.

That's his preference. He's very good at it. And so you see a guy who plays that way and then he has sort of unusual mannerisms for an NBA player. The way he talks and the way he makes his facial expressions, the way he come on and everything like that and all that stuff.

You put all that together and you have a guy who's just a little bit awkward, but he's super duper crazy talented. And here's the other thing. The guy just absolutely puts up statistics. Like just every game you're like, well, Cat didn't really do much. What's he got?

Oh, he's got 17 and 12 you know um and because he's not really demonstrative and because he looks awkward sometimes you don't give him credit for getting great rebounds but he's a great rebounder he's one of the top five rebounders in the league um so um he's a he's a he's a bit of a one-way player. He struggles defensively at times. When he came into the league, there was this belief that he could be a great switchable big, but he hasn't really turned out that way. And so sometimes he gets embarrassed defensively and people like to pick at it. But on balance, he can do a lot of damage.

And that's why he just got voted focused it to the all NBA team. Uh, you don't, you don't fall backwards into the all NBA team. Okay. Um, and so, uh, that's how I would describe them. I don't know if you agree or not. Uh, I love that it started with the high waste thing. I'll admit, um, let me see where I want to go with this. Like I think game three was like the perfect cat experience because it's been two and a half games at that point

when they got down big and granted the Knicks put together that really important stretch to close the first half where it's like, okay, this is not as a, like at one point you're like, I guess the Pacers are just this much better than them. And I thought this would be a good series. I thought that they were close. I picked the Pacers, but in game three, I'm like, this much better than them. And I'm thinking about like, how does Kat become available?

How about someone with his talent, his size, his age? How does that person become available? Well, we know because of the defensive stuff and the plus minus of that starting group. And you're like, Hey, the Pacers have something they can attack when Brunson's out there or cats out there, there's like one or two things that they're going to attack over and over again, and it appears to be kind of the story of this series. And so there are these moments with him where I think we'll as talented as he is and as great of a shooter as he is, and you're totally right. Like not just the rebounding, how big he well, as talented as he is, as great of a

shooter as he is, and you're totally right, like not just the rebounding, how big he played, especially even in that Boston series where his size was a problem for their bigs the entire time. He didn't hit any threes in that series and he still had such a huge impact because he made everything tough around the rim, especially when both he and Mitchell were out there. And I'm, I'm thinking of like all the downside of the cat conversation.

He scores 20 points in like six and a half minutes in the fourth quarter. And you're like, there's just not that many guys that could do that kind of stuff. And it's why you would ultimately want to trade for somebody like that, even if the Randall DeVincenzo price tells you that maybe the market isn't as robust for him as it should be for somebody with his

profile. It's because of his contract. Yeah. I know, but some of these longer term contracts, Brian, like you go, you know, I only have to pay that guy 40 million. You know, there's some of these deals that I know that are massive, but in a very quick amount of time, it's like two years into it, it doesn't feel as bad. So, uh, and I think you pair that with the Randall part of this. So Randall has these two great series and now you're starting to see, oh, this is why we've had all these questions about Randall this entire time. So there was a moment of like complete momentum swing, uh, and how you felt about these two players that we've

probably updated how we felt about this trade 15 times this year. Yeah and I also think that what happened in this game was why one of the reasons why Catsonia unique so Brunson goes out and they, you know, they're struggling to generate offense. So they just put Cat at the top of the floor and they kind of turn them into a point center. They cleared out and let them play Isoball at the top of the floor.

And this is where the Pacers were kind of in trouble because the Pacers were not aligned to play Isoball with Cat at the top of the floor. First off, they have been trained to stick to the shooters. They were like, don't leave Ananobe, don't leave Bridges. And then it's like, well, now Landry Shamett's out there. What do we do with that? We, we still stick with Landry Shamett. I mean, you should, but you know, you're probably going to try to let Landry Shamett beat you. So they're playing there, you know, they're seeing lineups they'd never prepared for.

That's number one. So that's something you say about tips. What he did. They were totally unprepared for the lineups that they had. The second thing is the weak spot on the whole Pacers roster is their backup center. That's no offense to those guys. But the reason it's so weak is that believe it or not, and you'd have to be a Pacers fan to know this, they actually lost two centers this year to torn Achilles, like within a month.

James Wiseman and Isaiah Jackson. Now, I'm not saying that James Wiseman is going to Hall of Fame, but they were scrambling throughout the year to the backup center. And Thomas Bryant's the guy they got. And Bryant was terrible in the first two games of this series. So they end up using Tony Bradley, who again, you have to be a Pacers fan to even know he was on the roster. Bradley was on 10 day contracts in March. Okay. So at the beginning of the fourth quarter, all of a sudden Brunson's, you know, well Brunson's out and then he comes back in and he gets the fifth, I take him out again, but Brunson's or Brunson's not out there.

And Towns is playing isolation one-on-one against Bradley. Not good. What they should have done is gone to Obetoppen, but they weren't quite ready. They weren't ready for it. And so catch drive into the basket, hitting step backs, you know, what have you. And so part of it was just the awkwardness of the situation. And they found a weak spot on the Pacers roster. And by the way, Miles Turner does a lot of things well, but guarding isolation in space. I mean, if you go back and watch the cat,

all those cat shots, he's doing it all in Miles Turner down the stretch. He toasted Miles Turner. Because again, the Pacers didn't have defend a dozen cat isolations at the top of the key in their game plan. So that he can do that is one of the reasons why cat is so valuable.

It's because he's so talented that, you know, in the situation, if the situation calls for it, he can go do that and hit step backs or take the ball and put it on the floor and, you know, cut off the ball, catch and finish. Like the guy is crazy talented for his size and that's why he's paid what he's paid and that's why the Knicks traded for him.

He's not the perfect player, but he's got a let go on form. And you know what, just to pick up on something too with the contract, you're right, like 40 million, I see 60 million at the end of this whole thing. But I'd argue that Turner is worse in those spots. As much as the cat gets attacked, I think Turner is worse having to deal with defending the guy on the ball,

which I think we kind of knew going into it. All right, so now that you've seen three games, I don't know how you felt before the series, wherever, do you think the Pacers are better? the Pacers are better? Maybe by a whisker, but not enough where I think it's like, oh, they should be the heavy favorite. This first three games could have gone any way. It could be 3-0 Knicks.

It could be 3-0 Pacers. It almost was 3-0 Pacers. It could be 2-1 Knicks. All of almost was three O'Pasers. It could be two one Knicks. All of those things are in play. The difference between the team, this is one of the things that I would say after game two, people were saying it was over. And I was like, I mean, maybe yes, winning four out of five is hard against anybody,

but there's not much difference between these teams. Like it's thin. And now Aaron Neesmith has turned his ankle. And I don't know how he's gonna play tonight. How am I supposed to know? Like, as soon as I saw it, I was like, that's one of those ankle injuries where you can get through the game.

But you know, this was a regular season, Neesmith wouldn't be playing. He would be out, you know, a game two to three. That's why that's, I mean, I've seen a hundred of them. And so I don't know how he's going to be active. I've also seen guys playing on sprained ankles who play great. There's some, you know, sprained ankles are very hard to, to, to deal with. And the, and the, and as Tib said after the game, you know, he was complimenting his own

medical team. He's like, I'm not worried. We've got a great medical team. Sometimes you got a medical team that knows how to get your guy ready. And you know, maybe the Pacers know exactly what to do to get a guy with the sprained ankle ready. So I don't know, but I will say that there's very little separation between these teams. And now you got one of the key players on the Indiana Pacers hobbled. So I have no, I mean, like, it's sort of looked down upon when people say that you don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen in this game. I don't know what's

going to happen in this series. I think either team could still win it. I am extremely impressed by the Pacers. I've been saying this for months. They earned a lot of respect from me when I covered them in their run last year. I got to know a lot of their players and their systems. I have immense respect for Rick Carlisle. And I spent a week with the Pacers in Paris this year. The games were in Paris. It was San Antonio versus Indiana.

And it was Victor's week, no doubt. But I made it my purpose to spend a bunch of time with the Pacers over there, went to their practices, talked to their people, went to the Eiffel Tower with them and watched them. And I said, this team, at that time they were barely, there might have been at 500 or a game or two below. They were like in 11th, 9th or 11th place or something like that. And I was like, this team is still awesome. This, and the reason they were bad at the start is because Nemhart and Neesmith got hurt.

I was like, this team is just really dangerous. I wasn't sitting there saying they're gonna go back to the conference finals, just to be clear, but I was like, do not forget about this team. So I've been talking about them for three, four months now, and I've been tracking their record, and I keep saying it. And I don't know if anybody notices, but they're 35 and 10 since January 1st. I don't know if anybody notices but they're 40 and 15 you know whatever and so I have immense respect for them but they're not demonstratively better

than the Knicks and they've had some incredible shot making that they've done the you know the last couple series. The fact that they would miss a couple of shots done the last couple of series. The fact that they would miss a couple of shots in the fourth quarter of this last game was not a surprise to me because, you know, you can't make every clutch shot, every series at some point you're going to miss. And that's what finally happened in game three. Yeah. It felt like they had a series worth of shots in game one, uh, to close that one out, but yeah, I'm, I'm with you there.

I don't, if the Knicks had won the series, I wasn't going to be shocked. out, but yeah, I'm, I'm with you there. I don't. The Knicks had won the series. I wasn't going to be shocked. Um, but it was ugly. It was ugly out there for Knicks fans. Say, I don't know, a few minutes to go in the second quarter of game three. Yeah. Let's go to the one. Let's, let's go to the West.

Uh, it's a slightly different team with the Randall cap part that we've talked about Minnesota's back in the Western Conference Finals. You can do these really, I don't want to call it lazy, but then like, well, look, you know, Western Conference Finals, it's the same group. I probably am still more disappointed in their Western Conference Finals loss last year because of how I look at OKC this year versus last year's version of Dallas. Uh, but they, they lose a really tough one. I mean, that was an all time playoff game last night. I really enjoyed it. And it was, it spoke to the toughness of OKC.

It spoke to Minnesota, trying to find any possible way to stay in that game with aunt struggles and Randall getting benched again. Um, how do you look at Minnesota over the last two years? Like if they end up getting eliminated, because that's how I feel, like ultimately I think they're gonna get eliminated now down three one. I give you Tim Conley and your ownership in taking stock of like who you are as a team,

looking at the last two playoff runs. Well, I think they did a really nice job in the draft this last year. They saw an opportunity to help get some younger, cheap guys that on the roster. And I think one of the things you take away, I've been extremely impressed with Terrence Shannon in this series.

I mean, how could you not? Like, you have to be excited about his future. And Rob Dillingham was basically sidelined. His rookie season was totally derailed by the injuries that he had. And so they've got some guys coming, and they're going to need that because they just can't, I just don't know how they're going to keep this team together and pay for it all.

So they've got Randall's a free agent, uh, Alex, uh, Nikhil Alexander Walker is a free agent and Nas Reed's a free agent. And I just don't see how they keep them all. Um, there are, you know, scenarios with the whiteboard and the PowerPoint when you can show how you can do it, but I think it's going to be really hard. Teams out there are already saying that they think... There's teams out there who are thinking about going after Naa, thinking that that's going to be a guy who shakes free, who can be an impact player who they can get. They know that, you know, first off, they, they did the Rudy Gobert deal last fall where he opt out of his contract and he took his salary down for the next couple

of years. He added money on the end of it and it looked like, Oh my God, Rudy Gobert got another hundred million. By the way, one of my favorite moments of the entire playoffs was in the first round in LA, I think it was in LA, where somebody was heckling Gobert. And I think Ant got fined. Another time when Ant got fined, where Ant was defending Gobert's honor, saying, hey, that's a $200 million player. And Rudy comes up, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Rudy goes, you know, with the French three, he goes, no, no, no, 300 million.

He corrects Ant to tell the fan, I made 300 million. Anyway, that contract cleared out some space on their cap so that they could maneuver. They did that with purpose. I don't think Ant was fine for the accounting part of the commentary. I think that's correct. I think you've got it right. By the way, Ann is giving sort of a silent protest. Um, he hasn't gone back to the podium since he was fined.

Um, he skipped the podium altogether in game two, then game three, where he has 30, he, um, he did it at his locker. And then last night he did it as locker. Um, you know, and ideally if you're a superstar face of the league type guy, he did it at his locker and then last night he did it at his locker. Ideally, if you're a superstar, face of the league type guy, you're on the podium for a hundred different reasons. He had one F-bomb and it cost him 50 grand. I'm not speaking for ramp, I'm just telling you, I think he's trying to send a message back like, well, you're not getting me to the podium then if you're going to find me for all this stuff, but whatever. So I think that they've, you know, they've put themselves in position to keep this roster strong around Ant.

They've made a couple of moves to try to keep it strong. And I think they will resign Julius Randall. It's just a matter of what they can agree to. But their problem is, is that they're going to have to climb Mount Thunder. That's a problem for everybody in the West. And if you were going to get the Thunder, this might have been the year to get them. And they haven't gotten there yet. They still need one more win to win the West. I've been around too long. I've been around too long, but I watched Shay Chet and J Dubb last night. And I'm thinking how many times in the rest of this decade am I going to be coming off a playoff game is where I'm talking about these three dudes dominating a big playoff game. Because Jalen, I get it.

You know, I work for ESPN. We especially on the morning television shows, we have to focus on the stars. It's what our audience wants. But the focus on this game being on Aunt Edwards only scoring 16 points, only taking 13 shots, it hurts me because this was a coronation moment for Jalen Williams, because this was a coronation moment for Jalen Williams, who hit big shot after big shot after big shot. This is a guy who hasn't shot the three ball well. It's plagued him at different times in his career. He hit a giant three in game five of the semifinals against Denver,

which that game might end up being the biggest playoff game. I hope not. I hope there's bigger ones to come. But game five, Denver Thunder, Thunder down nine at home in the fourth quarter. That game might end up being the most relevant game in the playoffs. We'll see. But Jalen Williams backing up his all NBA status in this game was a big moment. And so it's hard for me to look at the Thunder or look at the Wolves and say,

oh yeah, yeah, they're built for to get right back here. And you know, they're going to they're going to break through when I'm looking at who they're going to have to go against. Yeah, I was at the combine during game five and it was one of those things where you're kind of just talking to people and it was like that might have been their growing up moment. But I'm with you because of what that fourth quarter was last night and with the new CBA and being like, who has a big three?

Well, I saw a big three last night with what Chet was doing on top of SGA's. Just, it was just so impressive to see them answer everything that Minnesota and you know, it's, it's super dismissive to just go, well, Ant didn't do anything, Randall didn't do anything. It was, yeah, but everybody else made every single shot. Minnesota played great. They played so well as a team.

Obviously Randall was not good and Ant was not impactful. I think Ant played a reasonable game obviously Randall was not good and Ant was not impactful. I think Ant played a reasonable game, but he was not impactful. What impresses you the most about this Thunder team? They have absolutely no ego. Maybe not no ego, there's a little bit there, a little bit. And they have such a growth mindset and it's used against them. People disrespect them all the time because of those factors. Um, and

can I jump in there though? Can I jump? Cause you brought this up during the regular season and you would go on TV and you would talk about it. I think I got two segments out of it. So thank you. But it was this, no one fears the thunder. And it drove me crazy. I kept hearing it over and over and over. So is that just, like, look, the players who do this for a living, as we've seen multiple times,

are just as capable as us of saying stuff. We're like, what the fuck are you talking about? But this felt so specific. And I don't know, it's just the simple standard of they've never done it before or they're younger or there's more subdued personalities that there isn't even as great as SGA is. It's not this like forceful look at me personality. Um, it just, it felt so misguided

and just a very predictable thing of players prioritizing the wrong things to not take this Thunder team seriously. Yeah, I mean, okay, so I, after I said that, I talked to some people in the Thunder organization and they agreed. They were like, we see it too. And it's like, you know, and think of all leagues in all sports.

Think of your local high school. If you're local, let's say your league and your high school team, and the team with all freshmen and sophomores goes undefeated in the regular season. You're gonna to respect them. You know, how often is the best team in the league, the youngest team in the league? It's unheard of. It's unheard of.

So, and even if they are the best team in the league, you know, how, you know, okay, so maybe they have a player who's like unbelievable and you instantaneously respect them. Shay's game, like, Shay's game is not, it doesn't blow you away. It's a machine-like game. And you know, the fouls are a whole nother thing, but you know, Shay doesn't like, I mean, he blows me away. I mean, I, I watch him and see him, you know, say I'm getting to the spot right now. There's nothing you can do about it. And, and, and deliver over and see him, you know, say, I'm getting to the spot right now, there's nothing you can do about it, and deliver over and over and over.

Like, and he scores 30 every single night. Like, it's like, you know, I was talking about Kat earlier, you're like, how's Shay doing? Oh, he's got 24 at half. Oh, okay, I remember him hitting two shots. Oh, but he actually hit nine? Oh, oh, that's right.

But he doesn't do it in a way like he's not loud like Ant. Like, you know, you would say, well, who's the better scorer, Ant or Shea? Shea scored hundreds of more points than Ant did this year. You know, but you would say, oh my God, look at the way Ant plays. Of course he's a better scorer. But, you know, they're one, two.

So whatever. But their team doesn't demand respect. And so they won't get it till they take it. And they're in the process of taking it. And like, you know, you're looking over there, you know, there's a guy sitting behind the bench. I was looking, I looked at him last night. Nicola Topic, who they drafted this last year in a draft day gamble. The reason that he was available to them, he was, they took him late, I think it was

late lottery. He was the best player in Europe last year and nobody took him because he tore his ACL. Serbian point card, six six point card. I don't know what he's going to be, but like they got this guy, this guy that they're going to just take the wraps off next year that nobody has any idea. Again, you have to be a Thunder fan to know, but there's this other guy they're going to just debut, roll them out there. They got the number 15 pick in this draft. Okay. Maybe they hit on that pick.

Maybe they don't, you know, like they're, that pick, maybe they don't, you know. Like they've got waves and waves. Like Lou Dort is first team all NBA defense. And there's people who are saying they're going to trade him because they got Kason Wallace and he might be just as good. And, you know, they're going to have to pay their guys. Like this team is completely set up. The only chance that you have of this team

not running them off is if these three guys are not stars. If Jalen Williams isn't really good enough to be a number two and Chet Holmgren isn't really good enough to be that big man who can handle all the stud big men across the league. That's your hope. Because Shea's there, right? So that's what you're going into. You're saying, J-dub can't deliver when it really matters.

And there's some evidence that that has been true. And Chet, you know, he's no victor. And there's some evidence that that's true. And then you see moments like last night, and you see moments like what happened in the Denver series. And you're like, if that's what you're banking on, you got big problems because they may be there. And they're not home yet.

You need five more wins. You never assume anything. But my gosh, what an impressive group of people and what an impressive team and what an impressive looking future. And to me, the story of the NBA is I don't want any part of the Western Conference. If I was the honest Tenet Cupo, I would not want any part of the Western Conference because I don't want any part of the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Interesting segue. I have two more things for you. Do you think had, let's play out a scenario that didn't happen, how different do you think Prestes off season is with a title versus if they had lost in game seven to Denver? God, that's a great question. So to me, the big thing, Jalen Williams and Chet are extension eligible

this off season. And I'm sure that, and not just the Thunder, but any team in the modern days, because they're gonna have to give Shea a contract extension this summer. They're gonna be, not have to, they're gonna sprint there and hand it to them as fast as they're allowed. That's gonna pay them over $70 million a year. And they're worried about sprint there and hand it to them as fast as they're allowed.

That's going to pay them over $70 million a year. And you know, they're worried about keeping their team together. And I'm sure there's some thought like, can we get away with maybe offering Jalen Williams less than the max? Good luck. Good luck. The guys just made all NBA and just had a 34 point road game in the Western Conference Finals.

And, you know, what can you get shut to? Can you get shut in under the max? I just made all NBA and just had a 34 point road game in the Western Conference Finals. And what can you get Chet to? Can you get Chet in under the max? Cause you know, three, four years ago, Chet gets the max without thinking. Nowadays, if you have three max players, you're putting yourself in a tough spot. But you'd question like,

do you forget about whether you're signing those guys to maxes? Are you keeping those guys together? And I'm sure the Thunder would have, but the pressure would have been building. The pressure would have been building, especially when there's going to be a handful of star level players potentially on the market this year. The pressure would have been building for them to cash that stuff in. And the Thunder are completely prepared for the new world. Now,

they have to stay healthy and they have to have things go their way. And, you know, we thought the Thunder were prepared for the future in 2012. You know, I can remember seeing that series end 4-1 and at the end of game five in Miami, Scott Brooks, the game was in hand for the Heat. The Heat celebration was starting and there was a late timeout and Scott Brooks called his team together and like told them basically to watch what's going on here because this is, you know, there was no doubt that this, that Durant Westbrook, uh, Serge Ibaka, Harden, uh, those guys were coming back. Like this was just going to be one step in the process. Obviously that never happened. Um, so you don't want to ever make an assumption.

Um, but they are set up, they are designed to withstand the new aprons and the idea that they're going to cash in, oh, just trade seven first round picks for player X. I don't think that's 2025 team building. I don't think that's the way you go. Like one thing, and I'm very, very loathe to use this team's name. So please don't hold it against me.

But when you look at the Chicago Bulls in the nineties, the players that Jordan and Pippen won the second three-peat with and the first three-peat were completely different. Krause and Phil Jackson flipped over the entire roster, but they had Jordan and Pippen and Jackson. And in this day and age, if you're going to want to have good players for a long time, they're going to have to flip this entire roster over. Not because there's any flaws with these guys, just the aprons are not going to have, they're going to have to flip this entire roster over, uh, not because there's any flaws with these guys, just the aprons are not going to allow it.

And so if you want to do something more than winning one, if you want to have sustained greatness, you're going to have to be able to bring in cheap labor and the thunder are completely doing it or to please have to do it. And they'll probably trade some picks for picks later on to always make sure they have an extra supply. The way that you get good in the teens was to make trades to get star players together. The way you get good now, I think, is to keep the environment good for the stars that you have.

It's going to be more of an ensemble cast as opposed to I think Bill, I think Bill referenced it to be like almost like movies where you have two stars and then a whole bunch of co starring and widths. That's what I think the thunder are equipped to do. But your two co stars got to be great. And we're kind of seeing that that might be the case. I'm not ready to go there, but it might be the case. Okay, last thing. I know this is the part that you sort of hate and I don't wanna put you in a spot, but you would even hinted at it there

with looking at this summer. So I guess I'll just ask it this way. Are you preparing yourself for what could be a summer where teams are facing tougher restrictions? They're facing almost this, hey, if they're doing this, then we're going to get into this. I mean, there's the tea leaves seem to be telling us, although we've been disappointed so many other times, that it could be a really wild summer. Yeah.

So I just want to point out that two years ago when we were here, if I said to you, Drew Holliday is going to be a Celtic, you'd have been like, the hell he is. What are you talking about? They just played something in the playoffs. Drew Holliday is not going to be a Celtic. Well, the Dame trade happened and all of a sudden the Celtics stood up in their seat, sat up in their chair and were like, wait a minute. And so that's what I think you're going to see.

You're going to see trades beget trades. And that's what's going to be unpredictable. Yeah, we can suspect that Yannis may go. Yeah, we can suspect Durant may go. What are the knock on effects of those types of deals? And you have a number of teams out there that so kind of what's happened looking at 30,000 feet in the last three years, a whole bunch of teams went all in a whole bunch of teams. It's how you ended up with all these teams having traded away their drafts. There's all these teams that have invested in the last three years and, um,

and a lot of them have missed out naturally. There's not enough room. You know, when, when six teams, seven teams go all in inherently, there's not going to be room at the all in. And, um, so you have some teams that are in tight spots who are looking to pivot. And then you have some other teams that are very, very asset rich because of the way that all those things played out.

And you have this second apron situation that is coming in where nobody wants to be in there. And you have a log jam under the salary cap. The salary cap has grown very little the last few years. The contracts were all signed. They all went up, but the cap kind of grew up incrementally. And so there was like the little, this pressure, the contracts go up, but the cap doesn't go up. And there's a log jam. Now the new media rights deals are about to come in. And so it was like the little, this pressure, the contracts go up, but the cap doesn't go up. And there's a log jam. Now, the new media rights deals are about to come in. And so it's going to go boop, boop, boop. And we're going to see that log jam clear. And by the time you get to 26, 27, 28, there's going to be a bunch more cap space and a bunch more flexibility.

But you have a log jam. And so therefore you have some teams that are a little bit stuck. And so what you have is the perfect storm, the perfect recipe for a lot of movement. It's a relatively, free agency is not really existent this year. There's only a couple of teams that have space. There's not really high level free agents. There's a couple, but no one's clearing cap space to go after free agents. So it means that the way that you alter your team is through the is through the is through trade. And we have a draft that is interesting.

There's a there's a bunch of different players in this draft that teams could fall in love with in the top five, six. And there's some teams in the top five, six that may be willing to do business. So you put all that together and it's just a roiling pot bubbling. And I'm expecting there to be action. I'm careful to say, oh my God, this is gonna be, and by the way, I think it'll be at the draft.

I think the crazy week for transactions will be at the draft. It'll always be in July. It always happens in July. But the draft week is going to be a crazy week of transactions. I think, you know, the MBS from the moment the finals ends, you're going to start to maybe even before the finals end, you're going to start seeing real action. And I just think it's a perfect storm for it. And I don't know exactly what it's going to be. And again, I know that's what people want. Well, what, you know, and my editors want to like, well, give us the top seven players who are going to be traded.

And I'm like, I didn't know drew holiday was going to be a Celtic until I saw the Dame Lither trade. So, you know, and it's also possible that a star player might get traded and that trade will Precipitate something else to happen. So I think we're gonna see domino effects and it's a little bit unpredictable on how it's gonna go I just expect a lot of action and so I've Unfortunately had to clear my schedule Knowing that there's probably going to be a lot of times where there's going to be scrambling for emergency podcasts and

I'll be listening. You can check out Brian on the hoop collective as we mentioned at the top I enjoy greatly and look forward to seeing on ESPN the rest of the playoffs. Thanks, man. Thanks Ryan. Take it easy You want details fine I drive a. 355 Cabriolet. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the South Fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. And best of all kids, I am liquid. So, now you know what's possible. Let me tell you what's required. Hello everyone. Live advice rr at gmail.com. We've got Wargon. We've got Kyle.

How is everybody? I always like to check in on Tuesdays. Well, I screwed up my jury duty last week, so I'm doing it again this week. Hoping to get it right this time. Luckily, the holiday made it a short week, so we'll check tomorrow and see if I got to go. Actually, we'll check tonight. That's how I got screwed up. Is that, is there a warrant for you or anything?

I don't know, man. They're so tough in their letters and notifications they give you. I guess it's because it's one of those things that you got to bully people into doing. But I'm so tired of the red lettering telling me I could be on the hook for a $1,600 fine. So, you know, we'll just try to get through it. Fair. Orgon, any legal problems for you? No legal problems. I got my stone. Just count down the days. Oh yeah. Nothing new other than that though. Yeah, tough. I hate talking about it.

You got up and left last time. I know. I don't know, man. But good to know that better days are coming. Come up, bomb the program. Yeah. Okay, let's get into some emails here. This is a student teacher basketball dilemma.

Need some advice, can't imagine a better way than you guys. I'm a teacher at a pre-K through sixth grade school. Every year in the last day of school, we have a sixth grade versus teacher basketball game. Okay, all right, so we're talking about sixth graders here. Age 11, 12, maybe there's a 13 year old that's, a little, just trying his best. Got some social media maybe. Yeah, there's like a birthday thing that's, you know, a little. Just trying his best. Got some fish there maybe.

Yeah, there's like a birthday thing that kind of made it make sense. So it's really only one year. The whole school attends it. It's a lot of fun. I'm by far the best player, which is not saying much at all in my mind. This is a time to mess around,

not really giving any intensity. I think your head is in the right place, sir. While also still winning, the issue is another teacher takes this way too seriously. I'm talking boxing out sixth graders and way too hard fouls. One time he even went for a charge, which would be the most embarrassing moment of my life to try that. He's also considered the strictest teacher in the school.

All this to say the years, this year's class is pretty talented. I'm also their coach. And if I don't try to have a real chance to win, part of me wants to not try and let these kids beat this other teacher because it would take him months to recover. What would you do? Look, I'm a very, very competitive person. You know, sometimes we talk about like competitiveness. Either there's this becomes this lore like for you to be the all time competitor. You have to like cheat at monopoly against your grandmother. You know, you could hear some Jordan story like, you know, he was 40 years old and he, he beat a 12 year old in a boxing match.

He just couldn't take it easy on it. It's like, Oh, what an awesome man. Uh, I think you can be a really competitive person and also understand that you're actually kind of a loser if you're that competitive about this kind of thing. And I'm not saying that to our emailer at all. I'm saying it about the other guy. I mean, clearly the other guy, I do think like when you start to realize like older

people, like this is something that I've talked about in the past little bit. So there's a bit of a diatribe, but it's such an astonishing revelation in your life when you're a kid and then whether or not your friends are still in your lives, I'm talking about like your childhood friends, right? You know, single digits, you know, maybe not even, like before high school even. High school could apply here too a little bit. And you have this idea of who your friend's parents are

and then whether you realize it right away. But I think a lot of us later on are like, oh, someone's so sucked. Like he may not have been your favorite, but then you realize like, oh, that guy was just like a total dork. But maybe you're a little too young to understand that. And then the other layer of this is that adults that are just

miserable people to, especially kids, uh, that's its own thing, but it's kind of miserable in general. And people can, you know, Hey, maybe that guy's moody or, you know, maybe he's predisposed to not being super happy anyway, for a bunch of different reasons, like we can get into that, but there's, there's also like a general like understanding of, there's just so much shit that hasn't worked out for this person that they've just decided to take it out on everybody else.

And there's this just resentment that they have with them for the rest of their lives and become somebody that nobody would want to hang out with. So it becomes a cycle of them just being the worst. And so if you have somebody who is one, as you said, a really strict teacher and then hard fouling on top of charges in any kind of game, I mean, that's the craziest part of the team. Right. Think of, think of all that is baked into who this person has become. For him to think like this. This guy teaches history. I was gonna say math.

History is my one seed, if not it would be math. But yeah, I think it's gotta be 100% history. Or a strict gym teacher, I don't know. You don't see too many of those anymore. I think probably in the 70s and 80s there were more strict gym teachers. But I was gonna say history probably. Yeah, we had a, you know,

just out of the Civil War. Just out of the Civil War casting. Loves talking about it. And it's crazy too because history's a gift. You'd think you'd appreciate a life, you know, learning about everything that has. I loved it. Created this world today.

Yeah, but I don't know why, it's funny that we both kind of said that instead of math. Maybe it's math, but I don't know, something telling me that this both kind of said that instead of math. Maybe it's math, but I don't know something telling me that this social study. So really this comes back down to you. Like what do you need to do? Let this guy embarrass himself, right? Let him embarrass himself. And I would say maybe to the other teachers, let's freeze this guy out. Mr. Stevens. It's great for his legend at the school. Like he's a real hard, like a hard-o and, and, you know,

he's probably got like the worst passing percentage of kids in his class and it's just the way it is. He's probably tenured, you know? And he also has this thing where he completely embarrasses himself at the basketball game every year. Like it's great to have a legend like that in your school. Like a crazy wood shop teacher. It's like, this is, this is great.

This makes your school unique. And if you don't like him in your school. Like a crazy woodshop teacher. It's like, this is, this is great. This makes your school unique. Um, and if you don't like him personally, totally like lose the game while he's trying so hard, that would be, he'll have trouble with that forever. If you do like him, I don't know, maybe try a little bit, but, uh, throwing the game, yeah, is it even throwing the game when you're playing against sixth graders using the proper amount of effort, I don't know. Yeah, like if they were high school and knowing that, yeah, knowing that half the kids are probably

shitheads anyway and you're in there going like, all right, you know, I'm gonna box this guy out, I'm gonna set some screens here. Like high school I think it's all on the table because there's probably some pretty good players and generally like the high school team should win if they're going up against teachers. Well, the way it worked, I know that I told that story

in Hoosiers, but you couldn't be on the team and play in it. So, you know, are you really gonna find another, it depends, like some high schools are just so stacked and it's so talented. How many teachers you got in school, you know? Right, how many guys are actually like, do you have eight adult teachers that are gonna be able to run up and down?

You got a bunch of Stanleys up there. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, really that depends on the high school. So I shouldn't just sit here and say, and this isn't even really the question with all of it, but despite your competitive nature, I think you should take great joy in watching this guy embarrass himself the entire time and not be thinking about winning.

And if this is your group, if this is your group of sixth graders that you coach, like the other level of what we're talking about here and the relationships that you have with these guys, like it would be funny for them. It would be funny for them to win and beat grownups because when you're 11, that's really all you're doing here. Like we actually beat grownups and it doesn't matter if they play or doesn't play. I don't think you have to like take this as a career L if this doesn't work out for you. But again, you know, the other part of this is this guy's gonna do whatever he wants.

He's not gonna listen to anybody. He's a dick. I would just have such secondhand embarrassment if we're like getting back on defense, playing against these children. And he's like slapping the floor. Like I also coach fifth and sixth graders. You do know that they're not great. Didn't know that.

All they want to do is take threes. None of them can make a three. Our final scores of the games was like 25 to 20. Is it coaching? Is it your system? Uh, the system, we won the championship. So, I don't, you tell me. Averaging 20. Our, our foul, our best player fouled out. The other team wasn't keeping track of the fouls, but I was. So they came over and they're like, how many fouls does

he have? I was like, oh, he still has a five. So we're still good. Right. They asked like four times. Kept them in the game. Six foul league. good. Right. They asked like four times kept them in the six file league. Yeah. Physical. It's like the big East. You want, I mean, they fell on every plane you want, you want to stay mid. Yeah. This was wrecked though. So if this is like a travel fifth, sixth grade, they're probably a good bit better, but still, I don't know how you're throwing this game.

I've been thinking like, if the, you know, things shook out differently and Ryan was a tenured Global history teacher, you know ninth grade and it's the high school game. I was trying to think What what that would look like? You think you try to find a cycle high school or high school kids. I hear you're let's say your global history So most of your students are ninth grade Let's just say that Why am I stuck with why am I doing intro? Well, it's global history.

I don't know. Would you be more interested in US history? I feel like you're a learned guy. You're going to go to Iceland and, uh, other places. What's is the question? How are you handling this big game that's coming up towards the end of school? Right. Uh, spring flings over dudes are ready for summer.

This is like the last big hurrah. It's the big game. People are talking about it. I'm just wondering what kind of approach you're taking. Well, look, if it's high school. It is high school. Yeah, and I've had the disappointing basketball career that I've had.

Yeah. I mean, this is my time. It's my time. All right. I mean, there's a stretch of pick- pickup guys from a Boston thing that I played in that still hate my guts. Because I was like, okay, I have to make up for it all now here. And it was like, yeah, we're just trying to get a sweat in Tickhead.

Sixth grade, I'd like to think I'm in a place or that I would understand, you know, I do really like kids. Sixth grade, it's, it's totally different. It's totally, you can't, you can't be sitting there. I mean, that's the part where you become, if you win, not, I don't even mean it as like the result of the game, but like, if you're trying that hard against sixth graders, I mean, give me a break. All right.

Global history. You just strike me as a global history guy. Don't leave anything out. Okay. My wife's brother is a bum future mooch in the making. Five eight eighty two kilograms can leg press six hundred pounds for two reps. I gotta be honest with you. Is it worth it to put six hundred pounds on the leg press for two reps. I gotta be honest with you, is it worth it to put 600 pounds on the leg press for two reps?

That's just a lot of maintenance to have to put all those plates on. Like I know it probably feels great, but I just, I think there's like a maximum number of plates you should be putting on a leg press, where it's just like, okay, like just do more reps with less weight than having to do all that stuff, even if, but, you know,

yeah. But when I couldn't lift anything, because everybody can probably put on it, you know, I'd be like, Oh, I'm going to load up the old leg press today. I'm just, I'm just asking you how you feel about having to put all the plates back. Like, was it worth it? Cause I would, I would say that I think there's a plate number north of it where you're like, this isn't really even worth it anymore. Just something to think about. I have no basketball comp,

but I play soccer like the Walmart Kevin De Bruyne. Is it De Bruyne? Yeah. It's across the pond, right? Well, the kilograms usually tips off international. It's like global accounting. I can pick out a pass from anywhere. Anyway, I know I mess up that guy's name, but I do

love him, but I do love like the first time I watched that guy play in a match, I was like, Holy shit, like this guy's just very different. Um, so there's appreciation I had for him, even if I haven't, I haven't had to say his name in such a long time. I think I'm getting it wrong. Uh, sometimes I play it where you should be.

Sorry that you didn't make that run. That's on you, not me. Oh, all right. Great passer. Now onto the real issue. My wife's younger brother, he's 20, is somehow morphed into the most basic frat bro imaginable. Even though he swore off fraternities

before going to college, he's never had a job, doesn't try in school, and generally believes he's too good for any form of effort. I love that. 20 though, keeping in mind. Yeah. 20. These people are just not on my level.

So I can't be, you know, entry level job above that. He's cruising towards not graduating on times because surprise, surprise, when you don't work during your summers or trying class, the degree doesn't hand itself to you. He's got the ego of a Fortune 500 CEO and the resume of a guy who thinks grinding means watching YouTube until 3 a.m. Quick aside, I was having dinner the other night and I was listening to a younger guy in finance talk to an older guy in finance and they're with a big bank because they had mentioned it. And all I could think of, of all the times older

people don't want to listen to younger people because you're going to run into this and pretty much any field you're in. I cannot imagine older finance guys. Um, then I imagine some listen to this pod that have done pretty well, just the scar tissue, the resistance that is built up to the 20 something finance guy that talks all the time. Like that might be the most dismissive dynamic in the workplace today.

That's a great observation. Yeah. Cause I was just, I was listening and he was, you know, again, I'm not super educated in the world. I was listening to some of the stuff he was saying and I was just, I was listening and he was, you know, again, I'm not super educated in the world. I was listening to some of the stuff he was saying. And I was just watching the older guy and the, I don't think the older guy talked the whole time. And I think he was miserable, but I'm not sure.

Okay, back to our guy. He spends his parents' money like he's got direct access to the national treasury and his girlfriend's money like she's lucky just to be with him. He talks about wanting a wife who stays at home while he provides for the family. But again, the only thing he's provided so far is bad takes and body spray.

He's working towards a generic business degree with less direction than a headless chicken. And every time, a lot of analogies here, and every time someone tries to steer him toward reality, he either shuts down or acts personally offended that you'd even suggest he needs to change. So here's the deal. My wife and I are on a good path

We're building real career real careers. I'm already worried This guy's gonna try and attach himself to our success like a barnacle on a cruise ship How do you help someone like this not become a total failure when they think they've already made it? How do I make sure we're not stuck carrying the freeloading frat ghost of Christmas future once we get where we're going? I freck ghost of Christmas future. Once we get where we're going, um, I would tell you at look, he's 20, he's not going to listen to anybody. He's going to have to fail on his own. He's going to have to fail on his own multiple times.

And it's cool that you want to say something to him. So if you want to feel like you want to sit down with the wife and go, Hey, maybe I'm just going to try to take the pass at one time with this guy. Uh, and see what happens. I'd also like if the age gap, if you're still in your twenties, he's, you know, I don't know if he's going to listen to anybody, but these dudes are unreachable, uh, unreachable, extra syllable in there. I was unreachable for a little stretch, um, for myself. You know, I know that I wanted things. Um, I didn't know how to go about and get them. I had to, as I've talked about this past, I had to get to a point where it was like

the only way that any of this is ever going to work is if you figure out a way to become relentless and do this stuff on your own. And I had to feel like a huge loser before and see a future of being a loser, a future that scared the shit out of me before I was even like motivated enough to just go, um, and see a future of being a loser, a future that scared the shit out of me before I was even like motivated enough to just go, Hey, I gotta, you know, turn the ship around here. Uh, there wasn't a book there wasn't, again, we didn't have podcasts back then.

It wasn't the millions of conversations that my father would have to try to motivate me. It wasn't an older person that I was inspired by. It was none of those things. It was me eventually getting so sick of myself and where I was headed that I had to make some changes. So most people, even though, you know, when I've talked about this a little bit, like you go into a bookstore and there's just a brand new table of all these self

help books and it's not so much the message, it's the act of buying the book and then thinking the rest of your life is going to be different. And that's why there's always a market for these books and why so many podcasts have done so well, because you're like, Oh, I'm going to listen to this guy. It's like, okay, are you just listening? Are you actually like taking anything from it? Um, and so my biggest point or piece of advice to you would be, it's cool you want to say these things, but he's probably still in that unreachable phase of his life. He's delusional.

Um, I mean, he thinks that him wanting great things, uh, is, is somehow a compliment to the way he sees himself. And again, sometimes delusion when you're younger can be a really powerful thing. I wouldn't even like dismiss people necessarily that are delusional, even if it's annoying to work with delusional people. There's something that I admire a little bit and about being delusional. There's certain things that I had in my past where I was really delusional. I think back, I'm like, I can't even believe like I would think that that was even possible, but thank God that I did. But you know, at 20, like if he were 30, I think back, I'm like, I can't even believe, like, I would think that that was even possible, but thank God that I did. But, you know, at 20, like, if you were 30, I think it's entirely different.

But at 20, you're probably going to be wasting your time. Yeah, it sounds like this dude is disgusted with this guy. And, you know, I was originally thinking in my head, I was just like, you know, we all look back at 20 and we're like, what the hell? But then I was like, you know what? I don't know if we all do that. Like, I think probably a good chunk of people do that.

My sister though, is not one of those people that's gonna look back at her time at SUNY Brockport and then upstate medical thinking like, man, what the hell was I doing? She's just not, she's just not looking at life that way. She's not even really embarrassed about what she did in high school, where as me is the complete opposite.

I'm wondering if we're dealing with someone here who just has no perspective or self-awareness, what they were, either like you have no self-awareness that you are a complete doofus in your 20s, or you just weren't and you can't even imagine how someone could go through life that way because you were thinking about all this stuff at 20. So I think it's a little bit of like,

world's colliding and try to remember that. The other thing I was thinking is, why do you think you're gonna be on the hook for taking care, like, you're saying you're spending his parents' money, so obviously they're around, they're supporting him. Why do you think you and his sister going to have to, I'm not sure what you think is going to happen.

I think you're overthinking a lot of this. Uh, I'm not sure how this comes back on you. That was a big assumption. I mean, look, he's, he's just sending us an email, right? So maybe there's different behavior, certain patterns, some of the stuff, um, that he's already worried about because he's around this guy all the time, right? But you're right. I think there is a chance he is overthinking a little bit.

Like if you and your wife become successful and you have your careers, I mean, you could just also tell him to fuck off. You can't live in your pool house? Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, in 2020 is when I even started to get my arms around college. Like I wasn't, let alone like what my plan is going forward.

It was 20 was like, what's this library all about? And that helped. started to get my arms around college. Like I wasn't, let alone like what my plan is going forward. It was 20 was like, this is library all about. And that helped, like that really helped me. And I enjoyed succeeding in college and getting good grades in my papers where before I was just like, you know, when am I done with classes? I think this semester is great.

I should be done by two o'clock and we can like get after it. So really around 20 is when I like started viewing college differently and was actually excited to get feedback on some of the things I was turning in. So I mean, he might be ready to turn that corner soon. So I don't know, support more than disgust or whatever you're feeling. But I'm getting a lot of reading disgust from his email. But I don't know. It sounds like you guys just had different operating modes

and you can't understand how this guy thinks it's the right way. And he won't think that forever, I don't think. 20's really, yeah. I was just, I was such a shit head when I was 20. Just like didn't care about anything, like didn't take school seriously. So Rudy was screaming at guys wearing soccer jerseys,

like just for fun. Right. And it's like, look at Rudy. He'll probably grow out of that. Like I don't, I think you're overthinking this. The money thing is like, if it does become a thing, I feel like it's 20, 30 years down the line. You don't have to worry about that right now,

but he'll grow out of this. Yeah, it sounds like- You live on your own, like the safety net of college, he'll be fine. Yeah, it sounds like even just, he probably had a job in college, just the way he's talking. He's like, he spends his parents' money. Cause I'm thinking when I was 20, like even just he probably had a job in college. Just the way he's talking is like he spends his parents' money. Because I'm thinking when I was 20, like, I didn't really have a job, you know, we had

the whole cigarette thing going on, but that wasn't, you know, wasn't bringing in more than I needed. So, you know, I was spending my parents' money too. I think a lot of people, but at the same time, a lot of people have, you know, worked two jobs and I'm just like, I can't imagine how you had fun. They're like, I didn't. I was in school. Just like the wires were just wired differently.

So I think just remember that. Yeah. I think that's a pretty straightforward one because I mean, again, to recap it, it's cool that you care, but you're going to have stuff that's a much bigger priority, starting your own family, your own professional decisions. You married your wife, not a brother, and for you to sit there and think that, you know, it just becomes, we get a lot of these emails.

Oh, what should I do? My friend's about to do this. Oh, I have this roommate that does this. This is somebody from home. Man, I'm just telling you, when you get older, you start realizing like, oh, these are real problems. Like these are, I can't believe I cared about this stuff. Look, that's not like the stuff that you have to worry about when you're 20.

It's just there's so much of it that's so irrelevant, man. And part of it is cool to have some concern about your own path and all that kind of stuff. But I would tell you that the amount of time, it's likely the amount of time that you're gonna spend worrying about this is not time that you're gonna think back and go, that was time well used. That'll do it for the pod today.

Big shout out to Wargon on the man, Coach Wargon. We're gonna dig into that. Don't worry folks. Come on. I'm stoned, yeah. Playing her. Playing her and then Kyle stepping up and doing his civic duty.

I guess. Because 20 year old Kyle, be like red envelope, you think that's gonna get me? Come on, urgent, fucking see you later. I'm gonna use this as a bookmark. It's the best court note I ever got, honestly. It's the best mail I ever got from the court. See, things are getting better. Things do improve. It's the best court note I ever got, honestly. It's the best mail I ever got from the court.

See, things are getting better. Things do improve. And Jonathan Frias were put together on the video side. So, Ryan, this little podcast on YouTube, on our Spotify app, of course, part of Ringer Spotify. They were gonna name me Michael Jordan. My dad was like, I don't think he can live up to it, so they named me Michael Jared. Must be 21 and older, present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star

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